She-Hulk #9

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

The comic shipment finally arrived. Civil War #3, yeah, 52 #11, sure, Witchblade #100, She-Hulk #9!

That was freakin' awesome. They got married by Elvis! The whole page of spit-takes (WD40!), Awesome Andy living the high life, John teasing Jen with "Father-in-law," and then the piece de resistance, the dinner. Seriously Dan, how many pleas for sneak peeks did you get from your Marvel co-workers once the 'She-Hulk having dinner with her in-laws the Jamesons' idea got floating around? The resolution to that was very nicely-handled, I was really wondering how She-Hulk would smooth things out, but she knew how to get both 'sides' happy with what they had - that legal mind at work.

Greta use of continuity all through - the spider-slayer, John wearing the Spider-Suit, Hulk being missing (and having the Green Cross already established in She-Hulk back in #4 - nice), the nod to Pug having been a bouncer, and representing Spider-Man, and the mention of the Watcher in CW1 (set-up for Reckoning, there? Incidentally, I like how Zix is creepy, he's very blamelessly creepy. I wonder if that was some kind of memory-zapper gun he had) - all this stuff that unites all the issues into a single entity. It really gives each issue value beyond the extent of its own covers.

The argument between John and Jen re her greenness was intriguing, following past issues and setting up for the future - it's hard to see exactly where this'll lead. On the one hand, yes, John needs to accept She-Hulk and her choices, but then again, though he's not happy with the idea when Jen raises it, he does seem fairly happy with She-Hulk at other times, so he's clearly not viewing her and Jen as two separate people, where he feels differently about one than the other. I'm finding it impossible to guess whether their disagreement is going to end up being a deal-breaker, or whether ultimately they'll get past it, and 'Jenny Jameson' is here to stay.

And then there's the wolf thing. Next issue's cover looks gorgeous, a real 50s drive-in movie feel. Is it my imagination, or are there even fold lines on it? That's awesome attention to detail. I don't suppose there'd be any chance of that cover being made available as a high-resolution jpeg on the Marvel site or something, suitable for printing off at movie-poster-size? Probably not, but hey, I can dream...

[Dermie]

The argument between John and Jen re her greenness was intriguing, following past issues and setting up for the future - it's hard to see exactly where this'll lead. On the one hand, yes, John needs to accept She-Hulk and her choices.

Yes, he does...BUT in this case, I think John has a right to be upset. Now that they are married, Jen's choices affect more than just her. It was rude and inappropriate for her to make that decision without at least talking to John about it, rather than simply informing him of it. Jen has been asking John to accept both her human and her superhuman sides--now, after they are married, she is telling him he has to accept her superhuman side completely, because that's all he's getting. That's not fair to him. It is also not really a good sign for Jen's emotional health, since she had been growing more comfortable being human Jen again--the fact that she is suddenly wanting to be She-Hulk 24/7 is a bit of regression on her part. Doc Samson better be keeping a close eye....

[Dingo]

Yes, he does...BUT in this case, I think John has a right to be upset. Now that they are married, Jen's choices affect more than just her. It was rude and inappropriate for her to make that decision without at least talking to John about it, rather than simply informing him of it. Jen has been asking John to accept both her human and her superhuman sides--now, after they are married, she is telling him he has to accept her superhuman side completely, because that's all he's getting. That's not fair to him.

He has known for months that he has to accept Jen as is. She told him herself. The only way that John can be held blameless in this is because he was under the influence of Starfox. If my Wife decided that she was going to die her hair blue or any other change in appearance, she would be well within her rights and I don't see how I could argue that it is not just her choice. Jen is doing the same thing. She is not changing as a person, just her appearance.

To say that John should be able to dictate his wifes looks is a very... antiquated idea.

It is also not really a good sign for Jen's emotional health, since she had been growing more comfortable being human Jen again--the fact that she is suddenly wanting to be She-Hulk 24/7 is a bit of regression on her part. Doc Samson better be keeping a close eye....

If I was in a world where supervillains could shoot me in the back 24/7 I would want to be bullet proof 24/7.

If a woman feels more confident wearing the colour green, then why the hell should she not wear green all the time?
If she gives up her lawyer work too and sticks to heroing 100% of the time, then she may be having psych issues.

[wessner]

He has known for months that he has to accept Jen as is. She told him herself. The only way that John can be held blameless in this is because he was under the influence of Starfox. If my Wife decided that she was going to die her hair blue or any other change in appearance, she would be well within her rights and I don't see how I could argue that it is not just her choice. Jen is doing the same thing. She is not changing as a person, just her appearance.

I disagree. Jen's not asking John to accept her as she is, she's changing the rules on him by deciding to only be She-Hulk. There's much more than just appearance involved here. Her attitudes and behavior do change when she changes forms. That's not bad, but it's also not being the same either.

Jen and John are sharing their lives now. Deciding to stay green 24/7 is right up there with "Honey, I quit my job" on the list of personal decisions that aren't really personal anymore once you're married. Everything you say or do affects your spouse. Not every little thing needs to be discussed beforehand, but I'd say this one certainly did.

To say that John should be able to dictate his wifes looks is a very... antiquated idea.

John isn't trying to dictate what Jen looks like. His only point in the argument was that Jen sprung the decision on him after the fact. She's already introducing a big change into their relationship and she didn't talk to him about it beforehand. Maybe if she did he would have felt differently.

[Dingo]

I disagree. Jen's not asking John to accept her as she is, she's changing the rules on him by deciding to only be She-Hulk. There's much more than just appearance involved here. Her attitudes and behavior do change when she changes forms. That's not bad, but it's also not being the same either.

Her attitudes and opinions only change because she is more confident.
I may sound like a feminist (which is hard because I am male) but if he is asking her to be Jen, he is asking her to be less confident. Is he threatened by her? Does he want to keep her under the thumb? How can it be justified dictating a spouses appearance to that extent? It is not like he has a problem with her being She-Hulk, she was green for a week without incident. He just wants her to be Jen when it suits him. They were meeting his parents, a situation where he may want to be confident, but if he needs to be confident at Jen's expense then he is being a sexist pig.

Jen and John are sharing their lives now. Deciding to stay green 24/7 is right up there with "Honey, I quit my job" on the list of personal decisions that aren't really personal anymore once you're married. Everything you say or do affects your spouse. Not every little thing needs to be discussed beforehand, but I'd say this one certainly did.

Why is it as important as quiting a job.
It is about her appearance and confidence. Keeping her down seems unfair.

John isn't trying to dictate what Jen looks like. His only point in the argument was that Jen sprung the decision on him after the fact. She's already introducing a big change into their relationship and she didn't talk to him about it beforehand. Maybe if she did he would have felt differently.

Once again, what "springing"? She was green for a week.
No "springing", no change. He wants her to be a good little woman and turn it off when it suits him. She wont do that, and that is what his problem is.

[wessner]

Hi Dingo,

I think that being a hulk is a lot more just a change of cloths. The huge differences in strength, durability and emotiveness cannot be reduced to mere appearance.

I don't think John objected to Jen being the She-Hulk. He objected to being told that he will never see the human Jennifer Walters again. He objected to being told that his relationship with his new wife had just changed drastically and that he wasn't consulted about this beforehand.

John loves She-Hulk and Jen. He prefers Jen, but we don't know why. I don't think he's said or done anything to suggest that he's trying to dictate Jen's life to her. He asked her once to only be Jen when he's around, but he quickly regretted that and he hasn't brought it up since. He's been supportive of Jen and She-Hulk and shown great respect for her privacy both personal and professional. I just don't agree that he's threatened by She-Hulk or oppressive to Jen.

[WilderThanWild]

i would really like to ask dan slott if this story was intended to essentially wrap up the JJ vs SM possible court battle stuff? with an amnesty and Jen promising to keep it in the courts for years, was Dan commissioned this story specifically to tie up a loose end that wouldn't get tied up in the Spider-Man books?

I'd also like to say i enjoyed this issue, even if JJ was more of a bigoted twat than we've seen him in years

[Dingo]

Hi Dingo,

Hi Wessner,

I think that being a hulk is a lot more just a change of cloths. The huge differences in strength, durability and emotiveness cannot be reduced to mere appearance.

Ok, I grant that physically there is a difference. Even so, given that any emotional difference is only because of confidence, how can John justify asking his wife to change his appearance to her own emotional detriment?

Unless there is an as yet unrevealed reason then he is just being selfish.

I don't think John objected to Jen being the She-Hulk. He objected to being told that he will never see the human Jennifer Walters again. He objected to being told that his relationship with his new wife had just changed drastically and that he wasn't consulted about this beforehand.

Objecting to never seeing the human Jennifer is still a big deal. Green or pink she is still his wife. What drastic change? She is still the same woman. Hell, look at the ceremony scene, the woman he married was green.

John loves She-Hulk and Jen. He prefers Jen, but we don't know why. I don't think he's said or done anything to suggest that he's trying to dictate Jen's life to her. He asked her once to only be Jen when he's around, but he quickly regretted that and he hasn't brought it up since. He's been supportive of Jen and She-Hulk and shown great respect for her privacy both personal and professional. I just don't agree that he's threatened by She-Hulk or oppressive to jen.

Then how else would you explain that he wants her to be meek and mild Jennifer when it suits him. That is not the halmark of a supportive relationship. When you are in a relationship like a marriage you can't pick and choose which parts of a person you like. You get the whole package like it or not. And if he answers "not" then he has to ask himself why they got married to start with.

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

I don't think the difference between Jen and She-Hulk is purely confidence - though I grant, the following may or may not be how John sees it. Someone (possibly Dan?) said once that Jen would be the better poker player, and I think that's a lead on a key difference. Not that She-Hulk is more confident, but that She-Hulk is more impulsive. We've seen her say as much herself - remember her smashing holes in the pavement for twelve blocks to check on her goldfish? "Whenever I'm She-Hulk, I think about something one minute and do it the next." And in the Czarkowski case, she changes her mind about trying to change Hawkeye's fate, and she herself said that the difference was that she was She-Hulk when she reconsidered.

So while I'm not at all on board with John's reluctance to have Jen be She-Hulk, I can at least see how it could arise out of a motive other than him feeling challenged by her confidence. They're not different people, but they're subtly different versions of the same person - and in a close relationship, a subtle difference can be very noticeable. Heck, I'm just a reader, and I'm hoping that Jen changes her mind, and goes back to switching shape - I like both of her. And I don't think it's a matter of confidence, though it may seem so - I think as much as She-Hulk is a more impulsive Jen, Jen is a more strategic She-Hulk. The 'confidence' we see in She-Hulk, rather, is the knowledge of the abilities she has, the fact that she can take risks without being vulnerable. With her having spent so much time as She-Hulk (including long periods of being solely green) she's naturally come to rely on that leeway as a source of confidence - but I think we've seen in Slott's run that Jen has the potential for plenty of confidence in herself in other areas, and is really starting to grow into it. I'm not saying that's how John sees things, but to me neither of them are less gifted with naturally positive personality traits, so I don't see there being a genuine reason for either to be considered the 'right' form for her to take.

So I can see how John would be upset that Shulkie 'sprang' this on him with no notice. It's not really directly analagous to any real-life situation I can think of, because normal people can't do what Jen does - dial up one aspect of herself while dialling down another - but in a sense, it's a decision she's making that'll affect who she is, somewhat like switching jobs will change your mood, if your new workplace is a different kind of environment. But at the same time, John does have a demonstrable Jen-bias that I think he needs to deal with - while I don't believe he shouldn't have the right to prefer Jen to She-Hulk, neither do I believe he should have the right to demand that She-Hulk be Jen. It's got to be her choice - she may make that choice as a compromise to make the relationship work, as most everyone does in a relationship at some point, or she may not, in which case it's up to John to either accept her, or let her be and move on if he can't.

So I guess what I'm saying is... Dan's done some very layered character work here, and it's too complex a situation to look at here and say 'Well, Jen obviously has to dump John,' or not.

Apropos of nothing - certainly nothing to do with this discussion, but it just popped into my head this moment - do you think John's told Jen that he met Captain America? We've got no evidence that he's had any further contact with Cap, and Cap's legal situation at the time of their meeting is a bit murky - was he a wanted fugitive then, for busting out of the helicarrier, or only declared wanted after the Act formally passed? - but I just wonder about that. It's probably not significant in any case.

[wessner]

Hi Dingo,

I think you and I just have different assumptions about the Jen/John relationship and the motivations behind the characters' actions. Whether these two stay together or go down in flames, it will fun to watch the story as it unfolds.