Apparently racist ballet show ...

[Spiffy]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, because I think it's perfectly fair to judge a show based on it's pilot. I don't feel any obligation to continue watching a show if I find the very first episode off-putting. The purpose of the pilot is to entice viewers, and give them a sense of what's to come. It's the sales pitch. So if, for example, there are no people of color in the pilot, I don't see why it's unfair to assume that diversity is not a matter of import for the series. And if diversity is a priority for me in my entertainment, it tells me that this is probably not the show for me.



What lesson is it sending, and why is it wrong? Rhimes's needs as a viewer are clearly different than yours, but that doesn't make her wrong.



I think you're underselling the importance of a pilot episode. It's meant to tell you the identity of the show. To me, if the pilot has a lack of diversity, it speaks volumes about the creators' priorities. Most likely, it means that the issue never actually occurred to them, or it wasn't something they took seriously. And if that's the case, I wouldn't be too optimistic about the way they might portray people of color on the show sometime down the line.

And I have to say, I find your remarks about the expectation of diversity going "too far" to be very dismissive. First of all, I've lived in the suburbs most of life, and I am half Latino. I've also gone to school with kids of various races and ethnicities. We do exist, even in small towns. Now, there is an issue of segregation, in which white people in the suburbs may never actually know a person of color, even though there are some living in their community. So if we're REALLY interested in showing the reality of suburban or small town life, let's explore THAT. But then again, I doubt that's the kind of reality people really want to deal with, so better to just whitewash and pretend people of color don't even exist, throw a couple of non-white characters into the cast.

And this segues into the fact that people assume that the white experience is the default, and we usually only see people of color through the lens of white people. Rather than telling the stories of people of color, we are only included as supporting characters for white people. So barring the prospect of getting more movies and TV shows ABOUT people of color (other than shitty Tyler Perry movies, or sitcoms, because we're allowed to be funny, but not serious), adding a few black and brown people to movies and shows about white people is really the LEAST one can expect. And even THAT is begrudged us.

Fair enough (although I was being a bit more sarcastic than serious in that first post, especially with those parts about the "diversity fairy", than in later posts, where I didn't indulge in that).

In terms of the small town experience, wanting to see representations of them being diverse, and you wanting to see it on TV... I point you to a little show named "Gilmore Girls". Astonishingly enough, written and produced by Amy Sherman Palladino. That's part and parcel about why I think tossing this critique at her so quickly is so astonishingly unbalanced. Sure, you can judge a show based on a pilot, and maybe there's a practical kind of fairness to that (if you aren't an industry insider like Shonda Rhimes who knows and has lived herself with other reasons why its not fair). I'm simply saying that Sherman Palladino deserved the benefit of the doubt based on how well she's done this very thing with a show that was on the air for seven years (and coming from Roseanne before that, add another 2 or 3 for her tenure there). A decade or so of proving herself ought to have equal weight with the 12 minutes or so of running time we see focused on the girls in that class, in a single pilot episode.

Also, in all fairness, you say you grew up in the suburbs (assuming that we are using the same definition of a residential area within daily commuting distance to a city, but not within the borders of the city itself). So did I. So I know its not really the same thing as small town life, because I also have relatives and friends who have lived in actual traditional small towns very far from cities, and have spent other times, or at least been told in detail about, some truly out of the way small towns. Many of them are integrated, of course, if you live in the US at least, that happened a generation or two ago in a lot of places. But not all. Its not really part of my larger argument to say that many small towns can still be ehem... all white. Honestly, even if its true, its not a compelling argument for a fictional TV show. Its simply that I don't think SHOWING a small town like that, for a small bit of one episode so far, is so egregious that someone who otherwise has proven herself needed to be schooled and taken to task in front of the whole Internet reading public.

In terms of the last argument, about the white experience being the default? I think that's off-track to this discussion, although very legitimate. If people make what they know though, then I believe its fair for Amy Sherman Palladino to have made a series of shows about quirky 30-something fast talking white women, who live in quaint small towns. Her protagonist is that person, and its definitely a white experience, because her creator is (although her creator, as I said, didn't skimp on the other races in her extended work). Your argument is a great one for supporting, and urging, networks to accept and air more shows by people of color. I can't or won't argue that. And its NOT unreasonable to expect that the shows which DO get on have supporting casts of color, because the whole system is rigged against certain showrunners and creators. Its just wrong in my opinion (although it doesn't seem like 99.9% of the forum here agrees with me), to indict this creator, in this case, this soon.

[Thequeerjock]

I'm not sure I get the logic behind the complaint about it being too late to do anything about it now. There were very similar complaints from a lot of women of color (and some celebs like Kal Penn) about the HBO show "Girls" over the ethnic make-up of the cast, and while yes, it was obviously too late to do anything about it at that point, it drew enough attention that the showrunner apologized and promised to add some minorities to season 2.

Sure, chances are it's too late to change anything about the first season of Bunheads but it's not as though everyone was in the loop and knew about the cast for months before the pilot even aired.

[zemo]

I'm not sure I get the logic behind the complaint about it being too late to do anything about it now. There were very similar complaints from a lot of women of color (and some celebs like Kal Penn) about the HBO show "Girls" over the ethnic make-up of the cast, and while yes, it was obviously too late to do anything about it at that point, it drew enough attention that the showrunner apologized and promised to add some minorities to season 2.

Sure, chances are it's too late to change anything about the first season of Bunheads but it's not as though everyone was in the loop and knew about the cast for months before the pilot even aired.

I assume, and I may be assuming incorrectly, that Spiffy's point is that Rhimes' criticism, her being very big in the business, apparently, may well speak the end of the show and that there won't be a second season, because no one is going to watch it now because "Rhimes said it's racist" (quote of common tv audience member that is not informed enough about the matter, for examplifying purposes). Which, in my opinion, would give her far too much credit

[Ray G.]

I assume, and I may be assuming incorrectly, that Spiffy's point is that Rhimes' criticism, her being very big in the business, apparently, may well speak the end of the show and that there won't be a second season, because no one is going to watch it now because "Rhimes said it's racist" (quote of common tv audience member that is not informed enough about the matter, for examplifying purposes). Which, in my opinion, would give her far too much credit

This is a concern as well, although it might be overstated.

Really, this and the Girls situation were pretty different. Girls was a very narrowly focused sitcom based on one woman's very white life, so I thought the calls for diversity were maybe a bit out of place. However, that was just a blogger talking about what she would like to see on the show, and it was escalated by the tastelessness of the writer's response. Meanwhile, there's a much bigger case for Bunheads to be more diverse, especially as it's a fully fictional show. However, the way Rhimes approached the situation - essentially declaring war on a new show to her untold legions of Twitter supporters - strikes me as very unprofessional for a powerful TV executive to do. She may have been approaching the situation as a mother, but she can't distance that from her power as a major broker in the TV business.

[zemo]

This is a concern as well, although it might be overstated.

Really, this and the Girls situation were pretty different. Girls was a very narrowly focused sitcom based on one woman's very white life, so I thought the calls for diversity were maybe a bit out of place. However, that was just a blogger talking about what she would like to see on the show, and it was escalated by the tastelessness of the writer's response. Meanwhile, there's a much bigger case for Bunheads to be more diverse, especially as it's a fully fictional show. However, the way Rhimes approached the situation - essentially declaring war on a new show to her untold legions of Twitter supporters - strikes me as very unprofessional for a powerful TV executive to do. She may have been approaching the situation as a mother, but she can't distance that from her power as a major broker in the TV business.

You know, with all said and done, I think you have hit the core of the matter: The show is fictional. If you are making up the story, and you can choose between presenting an all white dance class or a mixed one, no mater what your real life experiences are, what you decide comes back at you, and only you. You have absolute power, and you decided to go with an all white dance class? You gotta live with criticism. And in the end, that is all that Rhimes did, criticise. Maybe her word carries more weight with some people, but then, those would probably be the same people that like the way she goes about her business, so they would have come to the same conclusion with a certain probability.

[Kedd]

This is a concern as well, although it might be overstated.

Really, this and the Girls situation were pretty different. Girls was a very narrowly focused sitcom based on one woman's very white life, so I thought the calls for diversity were maybe a bit out of place. However, that was just a blogger talking about what she would like to see on the show, and it was escalated by the tastelessness of the writer's response. Meanwhile, there's a much bigger case for Bunheads to be more diverse, especially as it's a fully fictional show. However, the way Rhimes approached the situation - essentially declaring war on a new show to her untold legions of Twitter supporters - strikes me as very unprofessional for a powerful TV executive to do. She may have been approaching the situation as a mother, but she can't distance that from her power as a major broker in the TV business.

That is way over stating it. The "war" that has been declared is in the reaction to her comments on one element that she found disappointing in the show. And it's doubtful that she has the power being ascribed to her. Bunheads will survive as a show or die on it's on merits and not ever Rhimes wishing it had more diversity.
She's not some hyper aggressive bad guy executive willing to crush shows beneath her boot for daring to present a all white casts. She's a lady that wanted her daughters to see some non-white little girls doing ballet on a tv show. The most disappointing thing to me has been the reaction to that very simple desire.

[KJ!]

Yeah, diversity is a good thing overall. All for it.

But if I was doing a show based on my own life growing up, it'd be all white.

So I do get where the 'Girls' writer is coming from in that regard.

However, I think I'd rather choose diversity over faithfulness to the source material of my growing up.

What does it hurt by making a friend of mine a different race for a tv show?

Sexuality would be covered. That'd be diverse.

Race? Nope. Ethinicity? Nope.

[Spiffy]

This is a concern as well, although it might be overstated.

Really, this and the Girls situation were pretty different. Girls was a very narrowly focused sitcom based on one woman's very white life, so I thought the calls for diversity were maybe a bit out of place. However, that was just a blogger talking about what she would like to see on the show, and it was escalated by the tastelessness of the writer's response. Meanwhile, there's a much bigger case for Bunheads to be more diverse, especially as it's a fully fictional show. However, the way Rhimes approached the situation - essentially declaring war on a new show to her untold legions of Twitter supporters - strikes me as very unprofessional for a powerful TV executive to do. She may have been approaching the situation as a mother, but she can't distance that from her power as a major broker in the TV business.

This is the best post of the thread. I'm glad to see at least an acknowledgement that someone else besides me (it was getting lonely, being the apparent thread leper) thinks Rhimes was careless, even if its her right to have an opinion (and an opinion that all along I've admitted is legitimate even if premature). I said it in an earlier post--Rhimes is a mother, its true, but she can't speak publicly about another TV show and not also be one of the most powerful and influential figures on TV now. Which is fair... if anything could be done to change the show. But as I discussed a while back, the episodes are already in the can. Long past. And Rhimes more than anyone knows this. So either it will turn out to be a valid criticism of the entire run, but WAY to late to change the actual episodes, or it won't be, and will have damaged another creator's rep for very little reason.

For me there are a few distinct discussions here. The overall topic of diversity on TV shows. This specific instance. And Rhimes' sense of timing and professional conduct. They are related discussions, but also separate in some ways.

[Spiffy]

I'm not sure I get the logic behind the complaint about it being too late to do anything about it now. There were very similar complaints from a lot of women of color (and some celebs like Kal Penn) about the HBO show "Girls" over the ethnic make-up of the cast, and while yes, it was obviously too late to do anything about it at that point, it drew enough attention that the showrunner apologized and promised to add some minorities to season 2.

Sure, chances are it's too late to change anything about the first season of Bunheads but it's not as though everyone was in the loop and knew about the cast for months before the pilot even aired.

I admit one statement from even someone as powerful in the industry as Shonda Rhimes isn't going to totally torpedo a show (that's another theme being hit over and over again as a defense of her).

That said, its pretty common (just look around this forum) for people to announce "I'm going to give this 2 more episodes" or the like. Now, for some at least, a clock will have been placed on the show to "fix" a situation, but the reality of TV production means its probably impossible.

Of course, that's presuming it wasn't always "fixed" past the pilot. We just don't know yet.

As for the showrunner apologizing and promising changes? I actually think Sherman Palladino bungled that. Lets be fair, and admit that. She was clearly VERY angry about this situation, because her response was a total mess:

http://smallscreenscoop.com/amy-sher...nheads/326201/

Amy Sherman-Palladino reponds to Shonda Rhimes about Bunheads diversity, kinda

We don’t wanna perpetuate the quibble, but an interesting feminist angle to this controversy has emerged.

As you likely know, Shonda Rhimes recently took Amy Sherman-Palladino to task about seeing a lack of diversity for the Bunheads leading ladies. Palladino’s reply may surprise you.

In a recent interview for Media Mayhem with Allison Hope Weiner, Amy Sherman-Palladino was asked to respond about what Shonda Rhimes had tweeted. For those who don’t know, her tweet read: Hey @abcfbunheads: really? You couldn’t cast even ONE young dancer of color so I could feel good about my kid watching this show? NOT ONE?” She has since back peddled a bit to mention that she likes seeing “girls of all different shapes and sizes” and that she loved Gilmore Girls.

It’s not unusual that in a small town like Paradise California might not have a lot of diversity. One might also point out that one of the main four dancers (Julia Goldani Telles) is from Brazil. (Which means there is diversity of heritage, and then you get into pointless arguments about “is XYZ person visually colored ‘enough’ to qualify as diverse?”) One could point out that there was about a week to cast these four young parts, and the young women all had to be able to dance on point as well as be a convincing actress. But that’s not what Sherman-Palladino rebutted with in the interview.

Admittedly, it was a leading question from Weiner, when asking if it was fair for one female showrunner to call out another female showrunner like that – “when there are so few on television.” And it’s a fair point. (To criticize any showrunner on your Twitter is basically a low blow.) Sherman-Palladino replied:

“I’m not gonna get into a pissing match with Shonda Rhimes, because she’s got like 15,000 shows on the air. She’s doing just fine for herself. … As far as the women thing goes.. I’ve always felt like women have never supported women to the level that they should. … I think it’s a shame… but it is what it is. I feel like maybe they feel it’s too competitive.”

Weiner said, “It seems like Shonda Rhimes doesn’t think there’s room for anybody else. … Why doesn’t she take a shot at a guy? How ’bout that?”

As the pair continued talking, Sherman-Palladino said, “Let me put it a different way. I wouldn’t do it. I wouldn’t go after another woman. I, frankly, wouldn’t go after another showrunner. It is so hard to get a show on the air…”

She doesn’t even really dignify the diversity question with an answer. Although we’d be interested in hear her opinions on that.

I mean as much as yesterday I was angry on her behalf, I admit she should have tackled that differently.

The part about one of the girls being Hispanic isn't one that occurred to me, I admit. We could get into a whole new phase of this debate over what that article writer pointed out--does someone have to be a specific SHADE to count as "diverse'"? Who gets to draw the lines? Especially when as was also pointed out, there were essentially only 4 girls (who all had to be cast already knowing how to dance), and the rest of the dancers we saw were no doubt just hired hands from some local dance troupe.

[saintsaucey]

I fucking Knew Shash's skin tone wasn't just a beach tan. No I think she handled it perfectly. Twitter is turning into letters to the editor for people with out impuse control. Something pisses you off and you imediately respond with out any thought to how it might affect others. Shonda says she wants to feel good about watching this show with her daughter. Does she feel good watching her crappy sex obsessed shows with her daughter?