CAAP: MLK would oppose same-sex mariage.

[Kevin T Brown]

I may be entirely wrong here, but I got a feeling the "emancipation" in question was that of the womenfolk.

I think you're wrong:

George Washington, who freed his slaves in his will:

"April 12, 1786, to Robert Morris:

"I hope it will not be conceived, from these observations, that it is my wish to hold the unhappy people who are the subject of this letter in slavery. I can only say, that there is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do, to see a plan adopted for the abolition of it." "

"Sep. 9, 1786, to John F. Mercer:

"I never mean unless some particular circumstance should compel me to it, to possess another slave by purchase, it being among my first wishes to see some plan adopted by which slavery in this country may be abolished by law." "

John Adams, who never owned a slave:

"to Robert I. Evans, June, 1819:

"Every measure of prudence, therefore, ought to be assumed for the eventual total extirpation of slavery from the United States.

"I have, through my whole life, held the practice of slavery in such abhorrence, that I have never owned a negro or any other slave; though I have lived for many years in times when the practice was not disgraceful; when the best men in my vicinity thought it not inconsistent with their character; and when it has cost me thousands of dollars of the labor and subsistence of free men, which I might have saved by the purchase of negroes at times when they were very cheap." "

Thomas Jefferson, whose original Declaration of Independence was anti-slavery:

"From Mr. Jefferson's Original Draft of the Declaration of Independence.
He has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating it most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him; captivating and carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere, or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. This piratical warfare, the opprobrium of Infidel Powers, is the warfare of the Christian King of Great Britain. Determined to keep open a market where men should be bought and sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or restrain this execrable commerce. "

I don't see "women" mentioned, but plenty of anti-slavery.

[C.B. Nerdlinger]

I think you're wrong:



I don't see "women" mentioned, but plenty of anti-slavery.

I think he meant Treacle was talking about the emancipation of women. But the word is more often used in the context of slavery so I did assume. . .

[Stressfactor]

Also important to note that just because several prominent peolple and founding fathers of this country opposed slavery doesn't mean that they, in turn, thought free men and women of color should hold all the rights of white people including the right to vote.

Several who opposed slavery also really wanted to see free men and women of color sent "back to Africa" because well... the reasons were many different ones ranging from fears that former slaves would rise up and try to take revenge to history's version of 'because they would become welfare queens' to an honest misconception that they would be "happier" in their anscestral homeland... but it didn't change the fact that they really didn't want them HERE.

[zemo]

I think he meant Treacle was talking about the emancipation of women. But the word is more often used in the context of slavery so I did assume. . .

Aye. Mind you, I am not American, so I think of emancipated women first. That said, even I knew Jefferson was anti-slaves, so I assumed that the emancipation in question in regards to the nations fathers wasn't the racial one.

[Nick Soapdish]

Also important to note that just because several prominent peolple and founding fathers of this country opposed slavery doesn't mean that they, in turn, thought free men and women of color should hold all the rights of white people including the right to vote.

Several who opposed slavery also really wanted to see free men and women of color sent "back to Africa" because well... the reasons were many different ones ranging from fears that former slaves would rise up and try to take revenge to history's version of 'because they would become welfare queens' to an honest misconception that they would be "happier" in their anscestral homeland... but it didn't change the fact that they really didn't want them HERE.

Heck, sending them back to Africa was Lincoln's position - even as late as in his presidency. I seem to recall that a few conversations with Frederick Douglass convinced him that it wasn't a fair solution - or even possible.

And while Jefferson opposed slavery, he didn't even free his slaves in his will. Neither did Washington technically. He freed his slaves upon his wife's death, but she freed them a couple years later because she was worried that some might grow impatient waiting for freedom. I don't remember when/if she freed her own slaves. (She owned twice as many as George.)

[Treacle]

Also important to note that just because several prominent peolple and founding fathers of this country opposed slavery doesn't mean that they, in turn, thought free men and women of color should hold all the rights of white people including the right to vote.

Several who opposed slavery also really wanted to see free men and women of color sent "back to Africa" because well... the reasons were many different ones ranging from fears that former slaves would rise up and try to take revenge to history's version of 'because they would become welfare queens' to an honest misconception that they would be "happier" in their anscestral homeland... but it didn't change the fact that they really didn't want them HERE.

Yes.

Heck, sending them back to Africa was Lincoln's position - even as late as in his presidency. I seem to recall that a few conversations with Frederick Douglass convinced him that it wasn't a fair solution - or even possible.

And while Jefferson opposed slavery, he didn't even free his slaves in his will. Neither did Washington technically. He freed his slaves upon his wife's death, but she freed them a couple years later because she was worried that some might grow impatient waiting for freedom. I don't remember when/if she freed her own slaves. (She owned twice as many as George.)

And yes.

Also, my point is that Washington and Jefferson weren't exactly bucking the status quo of their day. Despite Nerdlinger's quotes, they both owned hundreds of slaves. George Washington even signed the Fugitive Slave Act of 1793 into law. Neither man freed their slaves upon their death, and even though both men expressed a private dislike of slavery, they also believed black people were incapable of taking care of themselves, that slavery was necessary to their safety, and that if slavery was abolished, all black people should be sent back to Africa to prevent an uprising.

I don't want to derail the thread, but I just think it's interesting that every time you mention the founding fathers and slavery, people will bend over backwards to show how anti-slavery they were. They weren't. They were products of their time, and full participants in a system that benefited them. And there's nothing wrong with saying so.

And that's the whole reason I brought them up. Because our historical figures being okay with things in the past doesn't mean we should be okay with them now.

[t.c.johnson]

My favorite history professor in college, Reverend Coffee, once said, "There are many people in history who were great men. This is not the same as being a good man."

I would add to that, "Being a good man is not the same as being a perfect man."

[Treacle]

My favorite history professor in college, Reverend Coffee, once said, "There are many people in history who were great men. This is not the same as being a good man."

I would add to that, "Being a good man is not the same as being a perfect man."

Yes. You can appreciate the accomplishments of our historical figures without idolizing them.

[AthenAltena]

Pretty sure MLK would generally be pissed off at anyone claiming to speak for him on anything, regardless of the issue.

[sk716]

One child says he would have supported gay marriage. The other says he would have supported it.

But I agree...putting words in the mouth of the dead, unless we can find something we can quote, is wrong. This includes both sides of the debate.

It seems to me, that much of what King himself said over his lifetime indicated that he supported equality for all. Not just Christian heterosexuals.

“Science investigates; religion interprets. Science gives man knowledge, which is power; religion gives man wisdom, which is control. Science deals mainly with facts; religion deals mainly with values. The two are not rivals.”

"I solemnly pledge to do my utmost to uphold the fair name of the Jews -- because bigotry in any form is an affront to us all."

"It may be true that the law cannot make a man love me, but it can keep him from lynching me, and I think that's pretty important. "

"Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality. "

"When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. "

Even if in 1968 MLK Jr didn't outright say he was for Gay Rights, it wasn't really discussed back then, he was very clear about equality for all. He may not have even supported the possibility personally, but he knew the importance of protecting the civil liberties of all.