I saw the Avengers--MASSIVE SPOILERS INSIDE.

[Shurato2099]

"I am Russian. We understand these things."

[JBK405]

As Natasha says, she's Russian.

Speaking of, what did the "used to be" addendum mean? Is it just that she's spent so much time working and living with Americans that she no longer considers herself Russian, or is there some other meaning in there?

EDIT Shurato beat me to it.

[The Mandarin]

As for Ant Man, my problem with Pym is when you have limited space in your cast you want to avoid overlap as much as possible. They already have two super scientists with Stark and Banner, and even if they lose Banner in sequels, do we really need to repeat his role with yet another super scientist?

Agreed. You'll notice that once Banner creates the gamma-scanner, Stark gets all the other Super-Genius moments in the film? Stark was the team Smart Guy, and Banner was basically there to turn into Hulk. There really isn't room for more than one super-genius on a team. It just doesn't work in practice. The result when this is attempted is one of them getting picked by the writer to be the team Smart-Guy, and the other one getting little more than brief lip-service. It's just the way writing works.

With Ant-Man it would be worse. At least Banner can turn into the Hulk and truly contribute to the team that way, taking the role of the team Powerhouse. Ant-Man would JUST be competing for the role of team Smart-Guy, a competition he would lose because Iron Man is just plain cooler, especially when played by Robert Downey jr.

[Benel Germosen]

I was specifically listening for it on my second viewing and I still couldn't hear it over the sound in the theatre.

Benel, I think it's becuase that, in her own way, Widow is the smartest of the Avengers. She's the only one (Except maybe Thor) who has killed up close and personal, with her bare hands. Iron Man is always shooting lasers and Capain America was at war, but she's held her enemies as they died, seen their families, etc. She's the one who really understands death and she appreciates that there are times you can't outthink, outfight or outrun death, that eventually you will die. When she sees the Hulk (Or just Banner) she knows she's seeing the one thing that she's really helpless against; it's not just the power difference, it's that none of her skills would be effective (She can't talk to it. She can't persuade it or bargain or seduce) and she's terrified because she's the only character who really appreciates just how dangerous Hulk is.

I think it actually sort of fits what I said in my opening post about how everybody treated Loki; when it comes to the Hulk they all recognize that he is dangerous, but the rest of the team doesn't really fear him. Widow, as the one character who knows better, does fear him.

Yeah. That's what I got from it too.

[Tobias M]

I don’t get Loki’s plan. As Corrina pointed out, there seems no real reason why he had to let himself be captured.
I saw Thanos coming a mile away, but I’m still overjoyed that he is the next “Big Bad”!

To sow chaos. In a nutshell.

As for the Thanos stuff, Marvel did plant the easter egg of the Gauntlet in Thor, so it's been a while coming.

Agreed. You'll notice that once Banner creates the gamma-scanner, Stark gets all the other Super-Genius moments in the film? Stark was the team Smart Guy, and Banner was basically there to turn into Hulk. There really isn't room for more than one super-genius on a team. It just doesn't work in practice. The result when this is attempted is one of them getting picked by the writer to be the team Smart-Guy, and the other one getting little more than brief lip-service. It's just the way writing works.

With Ant-Man it would be worse. At least Banner can turn into the Hulk and truly contribute to the team that way, taking the role of the team Powerhouse. Ant-Man would JUST be competing for the role of team Smart-Guy, a competition he would lose because Iron Man is just plain cooler, especially when played by Robert Downey jr.

I think Banner was there as a peer for Tony, but he was also taught to be a whole entity by him too. That was his function in the film. Whedon's theme of 'repression is bad - embrace the part of you you reject' writ large in their scene together with the 'terrible privilege' line.

Which I loved actually. As well as the line given to Loki - I am burdened by glorious purpose. Hell most of his lines were great.

[CutterMike]

Personally, I think that adding the Hank Pym/Janet VanDyne team to the next Avengers movie would add a lot more than just "another smart guy".

For one thing, in the current Avengers animated, Hank switches between Ant Man and Giant Man constantly. There is no reason that this couldn't be done -- and done impressively -- in a live-action/CGI film.

Secondly, while some have said that they don't have the power of a Thor or a Hulk, and don't add to the team's strength, that has never been their point. Thor, the Hulk, even Tony to a large extent, are bombs. They're BIG frickin' bombs. Thor is a carpet-bombing B-52. In the Hulk's case, he's a B-52 carpet-bombing with nukes. The Hank/Janet team function instead as the team's surgeons. They are the scalpel, the sniper for when carpet-bombing just won't do. Even as Giant Man, while Hank isn't in the same power class as Thor or Banner, he is -- or SHOULD be -- the technical fighter, the scientific fighter. Hulk is all rage ant thyroid. Thor is the classic Warrior -- all about the pride and glory. Tony is -- to use his own words -- the Diva; he wants the big monument with his name plastered all over it. Drinking and fighting with big, powerful, SHOWY weapons and getting his name up in lights, Tony is closer to Thor in battle and in motivation than he would care to admit. Hank is -- or, again, SHOULD BE -- the THINKING fighter, the student of the sweet science. The Ant Man and Giant Man duality is all about using just enough force to do the job.

It would, in fact, be interesting to see Hank and Janet as an Ant Man/Giant Man / Wasp/Giant-Woman double team. Imagine being on the receiving end of a combined smackdown by a pair of giants who continually appear and disappear, each showing up just long enough to beat you once and vanish, to be followed by the other, then showing up again to smack you from a different direction.

And, thirdly, of course, they're not just providers of the big beatdown. They could join Natasha as the intelligence-gathering side of the team -- the literal "flies on the wall" in the enemy's headquarters.

Fourthly, there are the personality dynamics that they would bring to the storytelling. While Hank is the scientific fighter, Jan is the kid in the candy shop. Keep the VanDyne fashion thing -- play her up as, while not as rich as Tony, someone who moves in the same circles and can hold her own against him when he pulls the "...billionaire, genius, philanthropist..." superiority bullshit. The catch, of course, is that fashion design is a "soft" skill, looked down on by the hard science-types like Hank, Bruce, and Tony. Now, suddenly, she finds herself able to hold her own and earn the respect of "the big boys" in their shared field of doing seven crazy things before breakfast and she is LOVING it. And she shows it in the way that she flies into her fights -- she isn't about the glory the way that Thor is, but she has the same exuberance and dash that he has. She loves Hank, gives as good as she gets with Tony, but she and Thor have an "adored big brother/beloved tomboyish kid sister" relationship that is unbreakable.

...And, of course, having a non-military type like Janet around would give Natasha someone to loosen up with -- as much as she is able to, at least. This would help to round out Natasha's character and could add a bit of a Zinda Blake/ Dinah Lance vibe to the current Avengers testosterone-fest.

In short, Hank and Jan could add a LOT to an Avengers movie.

[t.c.johnson]

To sow chaos. In a nutshell.

I thought it was because Hawkeye told him that S.H.I.E.L.D. was his biggest obstacle and had to be removed.

[Tobias M]

I thought it was because Hawkeye told him that S.H.I.E.L.D. was his biggest obstacle and had to be removed.

He seemed well aware of who and what they were when he showed up. Hawkeye just gave him insight.

[t.c.johnson]

Well, the point is they knew the most about the cube and they would be the ones most likely to interfere with his plans, so he had to take them out. that is why he wanted on the base.

[ShaunN]

I think that Black Widow's fatalism may spring from the fact that she is Russian. This coincides with Corrina's observation that Widow seems the only one who thinks that the team can lose. There is such a thing as national character and the Russians have suffered enormously (even if they have often -not always -won in the end). So, that knowledge of history and the cultural attitudes that result from that kind of historical experience could be coming out here.

Contrast this with Americans - even when they lose, they end up with historical amnesia and conveniently forget their losses (like with Vietnam). This is delusional, but it does lead to a different kind of national character and outlook. (And a tendency to repeat mistakes).

I can agree that Natasha is more aware of death because she kills people up close. Given her line of work, this probably makes her much more insensitive to death and killing. But it would also make her more aware of the fragility of life,and maybe this is the major differene. All the other Avengers, except Hawkeye, have a certain level of physical durablity that is far beyond that of ordinary humans. When Stark is in his armor, he feels invincible; not much can really hurt Thor or the Hulk. Cap is vulnerable, but he is still far stronger, faster and more durable than ordinary humans. Only Natasha is a normal human and, as an assassin, she is aware of how fragile life is and how easy it is to kill. She then finds herself in a room with people who not only don't share that outlook/experience but are not vulnerable to her skills, making her even more vulnerable. It must be real blow to her worldview and experience. BTW, Cap does kill people up close as well. He is not an assassin, but he would certainly be aware of how easy it is to die.

One last point on the Chitauri: these guys are the most disorganized, undisciplined military force conceivable. If Thanos is relying on them to conquer the universe, no wonder he keeps failing.

I don't buy that Loki lets himself get caught to create chaos. He could probably have created far more chaos by getting away. Taking out SHIELD was done far more effectively by Hawkeye launching an attack on the Helicarrier. I think that the Loki capture just makes no sense. I'll be seeing the film again later this week so I'll look for any plot points I may have missed the first time.