School uniforms: Yay or Nay?

[Personamanx]

I could live with them I guess, assuming the school paid for the outfits. Definitely not a fan of it though, or most school dress codes (most either go too far or not far enough).

[VkmSpouge]

I don't think wearing a uniform makes much difference to bullying, self-expression or how well behaved pupils are in class. As long as the uniforms are inexpensive (mine was) then go for it if only because it is slightly easier deciding what to wear in the morning.

[Weeto]

I love this argument. "Banning Farenheit 451 from the school libraries doesn't hurt free expression, there's plenty of other books students can read". Any infringement beyond the absolute minimum to protect people is too much. And if the student doesn't want to be associated with other people from their school? Kids have rights too, you know. You don't magically become a person when you turn 18.

Also, people here are talking about how uniforms made it easy to avoid people from other religious groups. Sorry, I don't see how something that makes profiling easier is a good thing.

I wasn't really saying that I went out my way to avoid someone because they were from another religious group (probably 15-20% or so of my own school were Catholic) but there was so much trouble at times between the schools because of this issue that it was better to stay away from groups of people from the other school.

[Shisho]

I love this argument. "Banning Farenheit 451 from the school libraries doesn't hurt free expression, there's plenty of other books students can read". Any infringement beyond the absolute minimum to protect people is too much. And if the student doesn't want to be associated with other people from their school? Kids have rights too, you know. You don't magically become a person when you turn 18.

Also, people here are talking about how uniforms made it easy to avoid people from other religious groups. Sorry, I don't see how something that makes profiling easier is a good thing.

Hmm. Okay let's take that a bit at a time, since I think I may have been a bit misunderstood. For the first part, I don't think it's quite the same thing, but I do see your point. Taking a book from a library is basically restricting information (usually for a crappy reason - but hey, I'm biased.) A school's mission statement is to provide information, and if it's a public school, free information for all. Asking students to wear a uniform while they are in a school, though yes, it sucks for those who are more inclined to express themselves through fashion, isn't taking information from them (unless you really want to start splitting hairs about sociology and anthropology, but let's keep it simple for now). Part of the educational process is teaching students how to function in the real world, and like it or not, sometimes you don't get to choose what you wear. It sucks, but again, there it is. It doesn't mean you're taking away their rights, it's asking them to conform to a societal standard for the sake of the group. I know that the kneejerk reaction to many people is: conform = bad, individual = good, but I think that is an oversimplification of how people really are. I'm not saying everyone should be uniformed conformists all day, every day, but I do think in some situations uniforms are the way to go, and those situations are when you need to function as a group. I'm not saying you have to like it. I'm not even saying you have to like being part of that group. Jeez Louise, most groups I have to function in even today I don't like being a part of, but I have to do it because I need to get paid. I hated high school, but I had to get through it to get to college (which I loved.) But in the case of school uniforms, I think it has more pros than cons.

As for the second part, yes, I'm aware that kids have rights too. Believe me, you're barking up the wrong tree with that argument. But there has to be a balance, and what you fail to take into consideration is the other side of the uniform argument. I've seen way too many kids, really good kids, get into way too much trouble over things they should not have been in trouble over because there are just too many small-minded school administrators in the world. Kids getting sent home over dumb dress code nonsense, kids denied a day's worth of education because they wore a tee shirt with slightly off-color wording, or because it had drug references, or my personal favorite, "Satanic references." It's dumb. It's a way to pigeonhole kids who are just being kids, and unfortunately, for every good group of educators out there, you're going to get a bad one with a small mind. When people bring up the "less distractions" argument for uniforms, it's never the kids I think about. It's the distractions caused by administrators who should be administrating and not judging. But again, that's just me. I'm a little biased that way. I actually like teaching those "bad kids" when I can.

When I said students always find a way to express themselves, I mean that from experience, and I think it's a wonderful thing. I meant a uniform isn't going to stop that, nor should that be it's purpose. If that is the only reason to get a student to wear a uniform, then yeah, that would be a good example of UR doin it rong. But again, I think there are more pros than cons. Are there plenty of cons? Yes, of course there are, but that's not the question. In the end, if I had to pick one, I'd pick pro.

As for the last part, I don't see how wearing uniforms would help in having you avoid a particular religious group when everyone would be wearing the same thing. Would you care to elaborate?

[Hugin]

Hmm. Okay let's take that a bit at a time, since I think I may have been a bit misunderstood. For the first part, I don't think it's quite the same thing, but I do see your point. Taking a book from a library is basically restricting information (usually for a crappy reason - but hey, I'm biased.) A school's mission statement is to provide information, and if it's a public school, free information for all. Asking students to wear a uniform while they are in a school, though yes, it sucks for those who are more inclined to express themselves through fashion, isn't taking information from them (unless you really want to start splitting hairs about sociology and anthropology, but let's keep it simple for now). Part of the educational process is teaching students how to function in the real world, and like it or not, sometimes you don't get to choose what you wear. It sucks, but again, there it is. It doesn't mean you're taking away their rights, it's asking them to conform to a societal standard for the sake of the group. I know that the kneejerk reaction to many people is: conform = bad, individual = good, but I think that is an oversimplification of how people really are. I'm not saying everyone should be uniformed conformists all day, every day, but I do think in some situations uniforms are the way to go, and those situations are when you need to function as a group. I'm not saying you have to like it. I'm not even saying you have to like being part of that group. Jeez Louise, most groups I have to function in even today I don't like being a part of, but I have to do it because I need to get paid. I hated high school, but I had to get through it to get to college (which I loved.) But in the case of school uniforms, I think it has more pros than cons.

There are plenty of jobs in the real world that require minimal conformity to rules of fashion, or none at all. Yes, you might have taken jobs that require you to look a certain way, but that won't be true for everybody. Every school likely has both types of students. What instruction is more important, learning how to follow instructions, or learning how to do what you want without causing problems for others? Personally, I don't think wearing specific clothes is something that most people will have trouble with, whether or not they had uniforms in school.

As for the second part, yes, I'm aware that kids have rights too. Believe me, you're barking up the wrong tree with that argument. But there has to be a balance, and what you fail to take into consideration is the other side of the uniform argument. I've seen way too many kids, really good kids, get into way too much trouble over things they should not have been in trouble over because there are just too many small-minded school administrators in the world. Kids getting sent home over dumb dress code nonsense, kids denied a day's worth of education because they wore a tee shirt with slightly off-color wording, or because it had drug references, or my personal favorite, "Satanic references." It's dumb. It's a way to pigeonhole kids who are just being kids, and unfortunately, for every good group of educators out there, you're going to get a bad one with a small mind. When people bring up the "less distractions" argument for uniforms, it's never the kids I think about. It's the distractions caused by administrators who should be administrating and not judging. But again, that's just me. I'm a little biased that way. I actually like teaching those "bad kids" when I can.

So, bad administrators are overreacting to what kids wear, so we need to prevent any kids from wearing what they want? Why not make the solution be "Get better administrators"? All kids shouldn't be punished because adults are screwing up.

For a solution that doesn't rely on the government actually doing it's job well, instead of forcing kids to wear uniforms, have alternate outfits in the office for kids who violate the dress code instead of sending kids home. My school did that with school t-shirts. Granted, their motivation was not losing funding due to kids being absent, but it worked. Or, and this is novel, have a dress code with actual clear rules on what is and isn't allowed that doesn't ban political or religious views and lacks a gotcha clause. Take the choice out of the hands of a VP on a power trip.

When I said students always find a way to express themselves, I mean that from experience, and I think it's a wonderful thing. I meant a uniform isn't going to stop that, nor should that be it's purpose. If that is the only reason to get a student to wear a uniform, then yeah, that would be a good example of UR doin it rong. But again, I think there are more pros than cons. Are there plenty of cons? Yes, of course there are, but that's not the question. In the end, if I had to pick one, I'd pick pro.

I'd pick con. Children already have to attend school, sit where they're told, speak only when allowed and at a specified volume, move when told, all uniforms do is eliminate one of the few areas of freedom left to them.

As for the last part, I don't see how wearing uniforms would help in having you avoid a particular religious group when everyone would be wearing the same thing. Would you care to elaborate?

Check earlier in the thread. A few people have talked about situations where schools were split along mostly demographic lines, and the various students used uniforms as a way to identify and avoid or attack each other.

[Shisho]

What instruction is more important, learning how to follow instructions, or learning how to do what you want without causing problems for others?

I would say both of those things are equally as important for different reasons and different situations. I also think that learning to negotiate between the two is a valuable skill many students just don't have when they graduate high school. Uniforms aren't going to magically fix that, but I don't think it would hurt.

So, bad administrators are overreacting to what kids wear, so we need to prevent any kids from wearing what they want? Why not make the solution be "Get better administrators"? All kids shouldn't be punished because adults are screwing up.

And if that were an easy solution, I'm sure it would have been done by now. We still have people arguing to teach creationism in science classes. I don't think "getting better administrators" is going to be checked off the list anytime soon, or as long as education is a political football. We get what we get. Most teachers I know are really, really good. But I've known so many bad ones. So. Very. Many. For better or for worse, with good intentions or not. I just don't think you're taking human nature into consideration, and instead are focusing on the ideal of what should be instead of what is.

Check earlier in the thread. A few people have talked about situations where schools were split along mostly demographic lines, and the various students used uniforms as a way to identify and avoid or attack each other.

Ah. We were talking about different things. You're talking about rivalry/animosity between schools and I was focused on within school walls. As for the former, yes, that sucks. But it would happen regardless, whether you are wearing a uniform or a cross or a pentagram or purple hair or whatever people use to hate on each other. Jackasses will behave like jackasses. Uniforms or no uniforms, people will find reasons to put each other down. That for me isn't really an argument for or against either way.

[Little Scandal]

Almost all the problems related to fighting between schools on buses seemed to happen on other routes and apparently one bus was a constant Wellington - Notre Dame battlefield due to religious issues between the people involved

It's funny - the three schools that were on the same bus route were all catholic. Talk about love they neighbor. Although there were some scuffles, there was nothing hugely serious (ok, my friend getting stabbed would def. qualify as serious). We mostly (at least tried) to keep the bashing on the sports field.

[Morrison_Lad]

Interesting.

The Yay is climbing against the Nay vote. It's only 9 vs. 13 now.

[Little Scandal]

Interesting.

The Yay is climbing against the Nay vote. It's only 9 vs. 13 now.

we're comin to getcha! lol.

[Morrison_Lad]

we're comin to getcha! lol.

LOL

I'm honestly interested in the outcome. Like I said: When I was in school, I was completely against the idea. Now? I am totally for it. So, it's interesting to me.