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Thread: Ain't no rule...but you're being disqualified anyway

  1. #61
    Sassy Molasses Treacle's Avatar
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    Re: Ain't no rule...but you're being disqualified anyway

    Quote Originally Posted by Stressfactor View Post
    Perhaps it's because more women can feel more comfortable living basically as men without making the full transition?
    Just wanted to point out that a lot of transgender people choose not to undergo gender reassignment surgery as well.

  2. #62

    Re: Ain't no rule...but you're being disqualified anyway

    Quote Originally Posted by Treacle View Post
    Just wanted to point out that a lot of transgender people choose not to undergo gender reassignment surgery as well.
    Yes, but Catherine's original point was that she has seen more M-to-F choose the surgery than F-to-M choose the surgery. Hence my perhaps it is because born female transpeople can feel comfortable living as men without having the surgery than born male transpeople feel comfortable living as women without the surgery.

    But I say perhaps there because I don't know. And also that it may be that just because people see more of one than the other may not mean that the percentages are not more equally balanced.
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  3. #63
    Gunsel Karen El's Avatar
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    Re: Ain't no rule...but you're being disqualified anyway

    Quote Originally Posted by Weeto View Post
    I don't mean to sound nasty to transsexuals in general but I know that here in the UK, a transsexual is always recognised as what they were born as, although they can change their name and what sex they want to be recognised as, including "indeterminate" but they always remain their original sex in the eyes of the law.
    This is in fact entirely untrue. In the UK a person can apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate which will adjust everything up to and including their birth certificate. Even without that a UK citizen can get their passport corrected.

    Also, the rest of the stuff you said about 'cosmetic procedures' is a big slimy ball of bigotry and ignorance. If someone cut off your wang, I'm thinking you'd consider it a little more than 'cosmetic'.*

    *ok, not actually cut off so much as reconstructed from an outie to an innie, but I'm guessing you are a little vague on the specifics.

    ETA: just noticed this had already been addressed on the previous page. Oh well.
    Last edited by Karen El; 03-28-2012 at 06:04 AM.
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  4. #64
    Gunsel Karen El's Avatar
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    Re: Ain't no rule...but you're being disqualified anyway

    Quote Originally Posted by dasNdanger View Post
    I've been thinking of how to put this in perspective. I know it's a touchy subject, but just hear me out...

    Many Miss Universe contestants come from countries where natural born women are suppressed, abused, and otherwise treated like 2nd or 3rd class citizens. And even in advanced nations like the US, women still do not receive equal pay for equal work, and as the recent healthcare debate has shown, aren't even treated equally when it comes to reproductive health. In some countries, female fetuses are aborted at a far greater rate than their male counterparts because the female is considered to be less valuable, even worthless. For a natural born woman life can be a huge struggle, from not being taken seriously in a discussion, to being treated like a slave in a home rather than a spouse. I could go on and on, but you get the idea - we live in a male dominated world, where women struggle for the same rights naturally given to men.

    Now, you have a beauty contest. There are 100 contestants: 99 naturally born females, some coming for abusive cultures, and 1 naturally born male who had gender reassignment surgery and now is considered female. And she wins.

    What message does that send to all those women from all those countries? It says, 'the men still win - men always win'. Regardless of how she looks now, regardless that she is now considered female, to those women who lost they will only see the man she was born as, and it will be a glaring reminder that they can never be equal in a male-dominated world.


    das
    The murder rate for transsexuals is about 10 times as high as it is for 'natural' women. The suicide rate is like 30 times as high. The assault rate (including sexual assault) is through the roof. And yet people who would never make jokes about any other minority are happy to keep throwing casual slurs at transsexuals. Not to mention that people who assault/murder transsexuals are more likely to be treated favourably by judges who accept the 'but she was really a guy' defense.

    Not to even get started on how terrible a person must feel in their own body to put themselves through all that pain and prejudice.

    And with all that, if a transwoman ever achieves anything, rather than consider how huge an uphill struggle it is for someone facing that level of prejudice, the whole achievement, her very identity as a woman, is dismissed with 'she only got it because she's really a guy'.
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  5. #65
    Grifter trypr's Avatar
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    Re: Ain't no rule...but you're being disqualified anyway

    Quote Originally Posted by Stressfactor View Post
    Yes, but Catherine's original point was that she has seen more M-to-F choose the surgery than F-to-M choose the surgery. Hence my perhaps it is because born female transpeople can feel comfortable living as men without having the surgery than born male transpeople feel comfortable living as women without the surgery.

    But I say perhaps there because I don't know. And also that it may be that just because people see more of one than the other may not mean that the percentages are not more equally balanced.
    It's very hard to count the number of transgender people in a given population because of the many obvious complications involved.

    There has been an observed skew amongst binary identified transgender people of about 3:1 women/men but those figures have often been based on data collected by medical professionals, with unclear/changing elegibility criteria, and the gap is reportedly shrinking. I'm sure social pressures are a factor, along with legal elegibilty; which is tied into specific forms of surgery in many countries. Even some of the more liberal European democracies still have sterilisation laws as a pre-requisite to a legal gender change; and very few of the transgender men I've met, of those who have talked about their choices, would qualify in those states because they have opted not to have a hysterectomy (breast removal and shots of T seem to be far more common, for those who chose to use hormonal and surgical intervention).

    I think it's a shameful, discriminatory rule: concerning the beauty pagent. It's distinguishing between those who benefit from the accident of their birth and their genetics from those who (may purportedly) benefit from the accident of their birth and genetics, over an arbitrary condition of their upbringing, in order to conform to a set of arbitrary standards.

  6. #66
    Grifter trypr's Avatar
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    Re: Ain't no rule...but you're being disqualified anyway

    doublepost

  7. #67
    Right Guy KJ!'s Avatar
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    Re: Ain't no rule...but you're being disqualified anyway

    Quote Originally Posted by Stressfactor View Post
    Yes, but Catherine's original point was that she has seen more M-to-F choose the surgery than F-to-M choose the surgery. Hence my perhaps it is because born female transpeople can feel comfortable living as men without having the surgery than born male transpeople feel comfortable living as women without the surgery.

    But I say perhaps there because I don't know. And also that it may be that just because people see more of one than the other may not mean that the percentages are not more equally balanced.
    Sorry, it was actually me who bought it up first, from my own anecdotal experience.

    I wonder though, if it's true there are more m to f (which does seem to be the case?) if it's something to do with the basic make-up of our chromosomes :- the XX being female, and the XY being male. Could it go back that far, and be a case of the chromosomes and the rate of.......'misfire' (meaning that the mistake is made, assigning the incorrect gender)?
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  8. #68
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    Re: Ain't no rule...but you're being disqualified anyway

    Quote Originally Posted by Karen El View Post
    This is in fact entirely untrue. In the UK a person can apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate which will adjust everything up to and including their birth certificate. Even without that a UK citizen can get their passport corrected.

    Also, the rest of the stuff you said about 'cosmetic procedures' is a big slimy ball of bigotry and ignorance. If someone cut off your wang, I'm thinking you'd consider it a little more than 'cosmetic'.*

    *ok, not actually cut off so much as reconstructed from an outie to an innie, but I'm guessing you are a little vague on the specifics.

    ETA: just noticed this had already been addressed on the previous page. Oh well.
    Karen is right on the fact that people can change their sex legally now in the UK. The UK was a little slow at adopting that legislation and I actually thought that the legislation only allowed someone to change what they wanted to be known as or thought of but I thought that all previous names had to be listed and birth certificates remained intact.

    As for describing the procedure as 'cosmetic', I meant that the limitations of the procedures don't yet allow modified body parts to function fully and that some alterations are more cosmetic than functional. I also understand that the hormone treatments cause alterations.

    I wasn't trying to offend anyone but I do think the current limitations of the process do cause issues that are difficult to resolve. I know that post op M-F was allowed to play in female golf tournaments but it would maybe be a very different situation if Francesca Tyson chalked for a female boxing title.

    The fuss around the South African female runner, Caster Semenya was huge and she was accused of being male until she was investigated and tested before being cleared to run as a female. She did have high hormone levelsbut they occurred naturally.
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  9. #69
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    Re: Ain't no rule...but you're being disqualified anyway

    Quote Originally Posted by JBK405 View Post
    EDIT: Apparently, the requirement that a Miss Universe pageant contestant be a "natural born female" is an actual rule that's on the books, not something that was made up on the spot. It's still wrong, but I suppose my title is inaccurate now.
    saw Trump on TV yesterday doing damage control spin.

    he heavily implied that the rule would be changing (or removed), but they simply do not have time to address it for this year's pageant.

    (and I'm guessing that's why they are pushing so hard on the "she mislead us on her application angle". . . they're trying to cover their butts from civil suits from the other contestants?).
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  10. #70
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    Re: Ain't no rule...but you're being disqualified anyway

    Quote Originally Posted by Karen El View Post
    The murder rate for transsexuals is about 10 times as high as it is for 'natural' women. The suicide rate is like 30 times as high. The assault rate (including sexual assault) is through the roof. And yet people who would never make jokes about any other minority are happy to keep throwing casual slurs at transsexuals. Not to mention that people who assault/murder transsexuals are more likely to be treated favourably by judges who accept the 'but she was really a guy' defense.

    Not to even get started on how terrible a person must feel in their own body to put themselves through all that pain and prejudice.

    And with all that, if a transwoman ever achieves anything, rather than consider how huge an uphill struggle it is for someone facing that level of prejudice, the whole achievement, her very identity as a woman, is dismissed with 'she only got it because she's really a guy'.
    not to make light of ANYTHING you have said, (as you raise some very good points and have mentioned valuable & accurate information) -- but it most certainly can't help foster acceptance, that at least once a week, the subject of Jerry Springer is something along the lines of "Trannies Gone Wild"

    Oh yes, I realize that *most* (if not all) of the people who appear on that show are actors, or are lying -- really? you've been dating someone three weeks and managed to get them on Springer with you to tell them your "secret").

    but when there is still so much perceived shock value in the line "I was born a man" -- it's hard to feel good about oneself.

    just my 2cents.

    Wish I had a solution rather than just pointing out the problem. . but heck, we never really have figured out how to get the media to focus on someone other than the naked leather fairies with ball gags from the Pride Parade
    "do what bert says" - Flamestar (c/o Ouzo Man)

    A sandwich is a sandwich, but a Manwich is a meal

    "Evil people can do some non-evil things, and most of them do. That doesn't mean they aren't evil." -- JeffereyWKramer


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