Ain't no rule...but you're being disqualified anyway

[dasNdanger]

ignore - computer posted automatically. Weird

[dasNdanger]

OK, I wanted to ask this earlier, but forgot.

How would a woman with a more male-looking physique have an advantage over someone like this (Leila Lopes, current Miss Universe):

http://www.facenfacts.com/SlideShow/...ite.two.pe.jpg

I'm confused by that argument, frankly. Maybe I'm missing something. But I really don't get how someone like Lopes or Irina Shayk or whoever would be at a *disadvantage* to someone with a "more male physique."

I've been thinking of how to put this in perspective. I know it's a touchy subject, but just hear me out...

Many Miss Universe contestants come from countries where natural born women are suppressed, abused, and otherwise treated like 2nd or 3rd class citizens. And even in advanced nations like the US, women still do not receive equal pay for equal work, and as the recent healthcare debate has shown, aren't even treated equally when it comes to reproductive health. In some countries, female fetuses are aborted at a far greater rate than their male counterparts because the female is considered to be less valuable, even worthless. For a natural born woman life can be a huge struggle, from not being taken seriously in a discussion, to being treated like a slave in a home rather than a spouse. I could go on and on, but you get the idea - we live in a male dominated world, where women struggle for the same rights naturally given to men.

Now, you have a beauty contest. There are 100 contestants: 99 naturally born females, some coming for abusive cultures, and 1 naturally born male who had gender reassignment surgery and now is considered female. And she wins.

What message does that send to all those women from all those countries? It says, 'the men still win - men always win'. Regardless of how she looks now, regardless that she is now considered female, to those women who lost they will only see the man she was born as, and it will be a glaring reminder that they can never be equal in a male-dominated world.


das

[Little Scandal]

Guess I should get my saying in there seeing as I'm both Canadian and transsexual.

Being transsexual his indeed A LOT more than just cosmetic changes. I remember as a 5-6 year old child asking my mom when I would get to live as a girl. And it only gets worse as puberty hits. You know, feel, think and act as a woman and then you look in the mirror and you see a boy looking back. It's such a frustrating, depressing thing to go through it's even difficult to type here what goes through your mind.

I was lucky to have an understanding family ( some of my friends where kicked out of home because of this) but still going through transition is about as fun as an amputation without anasthetics. Society tends to ridicule what is different and when you are at that stage of "half and half". You get looks everywhere, comments, people will insult you and so on and so on and yet you feel like it's such a path worth fighting for that you will plow through all of that.

I am 35 now and I have been living and working as a woman for 5-8 years and it took me a while to get to see a spychiatrist ( a must in order to advance in the transition) because in Canada, until January 2009, we where not really anything here and our healthcare would not cover us so it was truly a nightmare getting help. But, eventually I did and now I have been on hormones for almost ten months now, Hormones that for the first 3 months gave me nausea, hot flashes and huge huge fatigue spells until my body slowly started to adjust. I still get awful mood swings and pain from my ever changing body now from the hormones as I am basically going through a second puberty as the doctors who now follow me explained. If things go as planned, in about a year, I should be going under the knife for my sexual reasignment surgery. Now I am now saying this as a complaint but mostly to explain how serious we take this and that it's so much more than just us waking up one morning and saying " I'm a girl now".

The best way I can explain I guess is that imagine someone who has lost his sight or ability to walk and that person would ear about this crazy long and costly procedure that would sometime hurt and make him somewhat of a pariah in society, well I am willing to bet that this person would still go through all of this to regain what was lost to him or her. It's what being transsexual feels to me.

Sorry for the rambling by the way

I'll post my thought about the beauty pageant and the whole legal thingy of it a bit later while I collect my thoughts.

Bye for now

Catherine

Hey Lady,

I was wondering where you were . I figured the person with the most enlightened response would be you. Glad you posted.

[Morrison_Lad]

I've been thinking of how to put this in perspective. I know it's a touchy subject, but just hear me out...

[snip]

What message does that send to all those women from all those countries? It says, 'the men still win - men always win'. Regardless of how she looks now, regardless that she is now considered female, to those women who lost they will only see the man she was born as, and it will be a glaring reminder that they can never be equal in a male-dominated world.


das

Are you serious? Because life is so much easier for transgendered people?!

Personally, I would think that it would send the message that being transgendered is more than a "cosmetic change," and that transgendered people need to be given the same respect and dignity as any other human being, of whatever gender or sexual orientation.

[dasNdanger]

Are you serious? Because life is so much easier for transgendered people?!

Personally, I would think that it would send the message that being transgendered is more than a "cosmetic change," and that transgendered people need to be given the same respect and dignity as any other human being, of whatever gender or sexual orientation.

Yes, I am serious.

Just think about it. You don't have to agree.



das

[Lady_Hawkeye]

okay, a quick lunch and a kettle of green tea later and I'm back lol,

So legally wise, being trans in Canada is well complicated ( as I'm sure it is most places) . I am right now smack into my legal name change and once this is done, I will have all of my things such as my birth certificate changed along will all my diplomas and insurances info changed to Catherine and after my sexual reasignment surgery I will then be officially considered a woman ( I already am considered a woman by the goverment but I still carry that little pesky "m" on my driver license and other paperwork) and once more, I will be able to go back through all my legal documents and have them redone so that it will show that I was a woman from day one.

Now as for the pageant, well my opinion is this. If there where no actual rules for her to not be into that contest right now then they should not disqualifie her. It's that simple really. Next year they want to make sure no transgenders are in there then put it into the rulebook like all those other silly rules for those things like ConnorHawke mentionned. The thing is that now more and more transfolk are coming forward it's crazy ( and great to see ) and society as a whole will have to deal more and more with us. While I do wish that we would be allowed to be included in stuff like that pageant, I am much more concerned with more important things such as us being pretty much barred from any public restrooms unless we pretty much sneak into it ( at our own risk).

It's such an annoying thing to go through being treated differently when all we want to do his fit in. I am a woman plain and simple and simply wish to be treated as such. All this trouble because of a stupid chromosome that went the wrong way.

Catherine

[Morrison_Lad]

Yes, I am serious.

Just think about it. You don't have to agree.



das

Well, I don't agree. It makes no sense to me. But, whatever

okay, a quick lunch and a kettle of green tea later and I'm back lol,

[snip]

It's such an annoying thing to go through being treated differently when all we want to do his fit in. I am a woman plain and simple and simply wish to be treated as such. All this trouble because of a stupid chromosome that went the wrong way.

Catherine

Thank you very much, Catherine, for your contributions to this thread. I'm glad to hear from someone who understands this better than anyone else.

[JBK405]

Das, thanks for the link. I can't watch it now, but I will once I get home in a few hours. I do, however, feel the need to disagree with you.

No part of the competition is going to be completely "fair." There's different standards of living in the different nations that competitors come from, with access to drastically different levels of nutrients, medical care, etc. There's different ideals of beauty; what makes you the most beautiful women in your home might get you labeled as hideous in a different culture. From less fundamental areas of life, there's also the question of coaches and trainers; some people are going to get better preparation for a contest. They're going to be able to afford better make-up, or they're going to have a complexion that works better under the specific lighting set up during the contest (Unless, of course, the pageant provides the make-up and changes the lighting for each contestant). Some women have plastic surgery (Unless this "natural born" rule prohibits cosmetic surgery).

There have to be rules, and there has to be a semblance of fair play and equality, but just because something that a contestant has no control over might give them an advantage, but maybe not, is no reason for disqualification.

I suppose my point is that we don't judge the other contestants on how they got here (The judges aren't told "This contestant didn't have proper XXXXX growing up so cut them some slack an give them a better score"), it's all about how they perform here and now, so that's what the judgement should be on.

[KJ!]

okay, a quick lunch and a kettle of green tea later and I'm back lol,

So legally wise, being trans in Canada is well complicated ( as I'm sure it is most places) . I am right now smack into my legal name change and once this is done, I will have all of my things such as my birth certificate changed along will all my diplomas and insurances info changed to Catherine and after my sexual reasignment surgery I will then be officially considered a woman ( I already am considered a woman by the goverment but I still carry that little pesky "m" on my driver license and other paperwork) and once more, I will be able to go back through all my legal documents and have them redone so that it will show that I was a woman from day one.

Now as for the pageant, well my opinion is this. If there where no actual rules for her to not be into that contest right now then they should not disqualifie her. It's that simple really. Next year they want to make sure no transgenders are in there then put it into the rulebook like all those other silly rules for those things like ConnorHawke mentionned. The thing is that now more and more transfolk are coming forward it's crazy ( and great to see ) and society as a whole will have to deal more and more with us. While I do wish that we would be allowed to be included in stuff like that pageant, I am much more concerned with more important things such as us being pretty much barred from any public restrooms unless we pretty much sneak into it ( at our own risk).

It's such an annoying thing to go through being treated differently when all we want to do his fit in. I am a woman plain and simple and simply wish to be treated as such. All this trouble because of a stupid chromosome that went the wrong way.

Catherine

And even then it's not all over.

It used to be an absolute BITCH to change someone's gender on our banking software. It's all based on such old and outdated tech that it was never thought of as a possibility way back when.

I always ended up having to do it, simply because I was the one who 'had done it before', and/or 'understands these things better' (because of prior social work. Vaguely relevant at best. But when you're looking for an excuse to not do something, it becomes a point).

And even me knowing the full process (because let's be honest, this isn't an everyday occurrence at the same bank branch) it took ages. I'd do my best to let the client know what was happening and why (in summary 'our shit is old'), however I'm sure it can't have been fully comfortable, let alone that we were usually the first stop for them in getting it changed for everything (driver's license etc etc).

[Morrison_Lad]

Das, thanks for the link. I can't watch it now, but I will once I get home in a few hours. I do, however, feel the need to disagree with you.

No part of the competition is going to be completely "fair." There's different standards of living in the different nations that competitors come from, with access to drastically different levels of nutrients, medical care, etc. There's different ideals of beauty; what makes you the most beautiful women in your home might get you labeled as hideous in a different culture. From less fundamental areas of life, there's also the question of coaches and trainers; some people are going to get better preparation for a contest. They're going to be able to afford better make-up, or they're going to have a complexion that works better under the specific lighting set up during the contest (Unless, of course, the pageant provides the make-up and changes the lighting for each contestant). Some women have plastic surgery (Unless this "natural born" rule prohibits cosmetic surgery).

There have to be rules, and there has to be a semblance of fair play and equality, but just because something that a contestant has no control over might give them an advantage, but maybe not, is no reason for disqualification.

Interestingly, Leila Lopes whose pic I posted above, is from Angola. And she won the contest last year. Actually the last 5 winners have been from:

Angola
Mexico
Venezuela
Venezuela
Japan

The Venezuelans, btw, take these pageants extremely seriously. The amount of plastic surgery engaged in down there is just nuts! Pageants is serious business down there. That, and baseball. Heh.