The ATHEISM Thread

[Matt Jay]

[James Patrick]

This, above all else, is my CURRENT most annoyance with, well, SOME Christians. Because let's face it this is a chirstian signature for the most part. The lack of awareness of insensitivity and display of narcisism that goes along with this is absurd. And while it occurs with some somewhat benignly, there is a specific kind of personality type that really flaunts this too, and they're in my family and on facebook and I find it repuslive. It's the same kind of ego that, if they were rich, would be displayed by talking about their cars or houses. And sometimes I feel it's a surrogate for other things in their life. Well, I may not be this or that, but I'm special to God (and you're not).

And then of course, when something bad happens, it's all part of god's plan. I'm "special" sometimes, other times I'm part of the plan.

[versemicroverse]

While I wish we consult Christopher Hitchens on this, there is suggested reading for skeptics and atheists alike:
The God Delusion
By Richard Dawkins
(available in paperback)

[Tyr]

^ Well Matt, I'll try my best to respond to that. First with a scenario.

Lets you have a homeless man out and about on the street. Now a rich man comes along and says, "I wish to make your life better, come with me." The homeless man decides to do just that, and the rich man does exactly what he says he does. Within a year, the homeless man has a good job, a roof over his head, and food on his table. Making him middle class

Now here's the thing, the homeless man wasn't the only one out on the street that day, there where others, lots of others. This prompts the formally poor man to ask "why? why me and not all those others on the street?" He asks the rich man this question, but the rich man just smiles and doesn't answer the question. Eventually the rich man dies suddenly in his sleep, having never answered the poor man's question. More still, he leaves a good sizable chunk of his estate to the once homeless man, making him a rich man.

Now he has several choices, he may just keep asking "why?" over and over again, never getting an answer, wallow in misery because he feels he was not deserving of the rich man's generosity. Or he may be instead feel grateful that he was given all this, this might prompt him to go and and do for another or even others, what the rich man did for him.

And perhaps the later, is the reason the rich man did what he did in the first place.

Christian doctrine would tell you the words of Sam Harris about the suffering of others is all the more reason to be thankful to the lord for providing you all they have. Also because there are others suffering you should go forth and attempt to make their lives better the same way that the lord did with you. And you may notice that quite a few charities out are tied in someway to some religious affiliation, be it direct involvement, or support in the way of money, materials, and volunteers through local churches and religious organizations.

Now you may ask "why does god allow suffering in the first place?" That's a very good question, it's been debated by both believers and non believers, alike. The best answer that the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim community is "free will." That god allows humans to make their own choices in life, be they to the benefit or the suffering of others. If God where to come down and correct every injustice or act of cruelty in the world, then you would no longer have free will. You would have something similar to say the Justice League episode, "A better world." Which I believe was inspired by the comic series The Authority.

Let's take this board, if Denny where to come down and drop the ban hammer on anyone who said something snide, mean, hurtful, or anytime anyone has a dispute, or even a difference of opinion, in order to keep such a dispute from happening, ask yourself, is that the kind of board you wish to visit?

That's the best answer I can give to the question, I'm sorry if it's not enough. But I would point out that no religion or philosophy is ever going to come with a 100% satisfactory answer as to the question "Why?" when it comes to suffering. But they can come up with an answer to, "what should we do about it?" and do the best to come up with a solution with what they have available. Even if said solution, isn't a far reaching or perfect one.

[19bernardo87]

The God Delusion was mediocre, I thought. Dawkin's best works remain The Selfish Gene and Ancestor's Tale.

I tend to like Sam Harris' writing the best. In fact, as I type, I'm reading his latest essay on Lying (http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/lying). A similar work on Free Will is coming out a week from now. I tend to shy away from the subject of free will, since it seemed to be ruled by semantics and populated exclusively by strawmen... but since it's Sam, I might give it a shot.

[Ryan Elliott]

This is 100% the song Christmas Shoes. And Patton Oswalt's summation of the song is spot on.

"God gave that kid's mom cancer, made the family poor, put him in line in front of me, made him 7 cents short for a pair of shoes, just so I wouldn't have a shitty attitude on Christmas. PRAISE THE LORD."

[Matt Jay]

^ Well Matt, I'll try my best to respond to that. First with a scenario.

Lets you have a homeless man out and about on the street. Now a rich man comes along and says, "I wish to make your life better, come with me." The homeless man decides to do just that, and the rich man does exactly what he says he does. Within a year, the homeless man has a good job, a roof over his head, and food on his table. Making him middle class

Now here's the thing, the homeless man wasn't the only one out on the street that day, there where others, lots of others. This prompts the formally poor man to ask "why? why me and not all those others on the street?" He asks the rich man this question, but the rich man just smiles and doesn't answer the question. Eventually the rich man dies suddenly in his sleep, having never answered the poor man's question. More still, he leaves a good sizable chunk of his estate to the once homeless man, making him a rich man.

Now he has several choices, he may just keep asking "why?" over and over again, never getting an answer, wallow in misery because he feels he was not deserving of the rich man's generosity. Or he may be instead feel grateful that he was given all this, this might prompt him to go and and do for another or even others, what the rich man did for him.

And perhaps the later, is the reason the rich man did what he did in the first place.

Christian doctrine would tell you the words of Sam Harris about the suffering of others is all the more reason to be thankful to the lord for providing you all they have. Also because there are others suffering you should go forth and attempt to make their lives better the same way that the lord did with you. And you may notice that quite a few charities out are tied in someway to some religious affiliation, be it direct involvement, or support in the way of money, materials, and volunteers through local churches and religious organizations.

Now you may ask "why does god allow suffering in the first place?" That's a very good question, it's been debated by both believers and non believers, alike. The best answer that the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim community is "free will." That god allows humans to make their own choices in life, be they to the benefit or the suffering of others. If God where to come down and correct every injustice or act of cruelty in the world, then you would no longer have free will. You would have something similar to say the Justice League episode, "A better world." Which I believe was inspired by the comic series The Authority.

Let's take this board, if Denny where to come down and drop the ban hammer on anyone who said something snide, mean, hurtful, or anytime anyone has a dispute, or even a difference of opinion, in order to keep such a dispute from happening, ask yourself, is that the kind of board you wish to visit?

That's the best answer I can give to the question, I'm sorry if it's not enough. But I would point out that no religion or philosophy is ever going to come with a 100% satisfactory answer as to the question "Why?" when it comes to suffering. But they can come up with an answer to, "what should we do about it?" and do the best to come up with a solution with what they have available. Even if said solution, isn't a far reaching or perfect one.

I'm very familiar with the reasoning that "good things happen= God's will. Bad things happen= free will OR God works in mysterious ways." I think it's remarkably silly. Even if it were true then, at best, God is being a douche to alot of people because they had the misfortune to be born in a certain part of the world. Why? Who knows? He won't tell us. I don't see why such a creature would be worthy of worship.

[Hate_Prime]

^ Well Matt, I'll try my best to respond to that. First with a scenario.

Lets you have a homeless man out and about on the street. Now a rich man comes along and says, "I wish to make your life better, come with me." The homeless man decides to do just that, and the rich man does exactly what he says he does. Within a year, the homeless man has a good job, a roof over his head, and food on his table. Making him middle class

Now here's the thing, the homeless man wasn't the only one out on the street that day, there where others, lots of others. This prompts the formally poor man to ask "why? why me and not all those others on the street?" He asks the rich man this question, but the rich man just smiles and doesn't answer the question. Eventually the rich man dies suddenly in his sleep, having never answered the poor man's question. More still, he leaves a good sizable chunk of his estate to the once homeless man, making him a rich man.

Now he has several choices, he may just keep asking "why?" over and over again, never getting an answer, wallow in misery because he feels he was not deserving of the rich man's generosity. Or he may be instead feel grateful that he was given all this, this might prompt him to go and and do for another or even others, what the rich man did for him.

And perhaps the later, is the reason the rich man did what he did in the first place.

Christian doctrine would tell you the words of Sam Harris about the suffering of others is all the more reason to be thankful to the lord for providing you all they have. Also because there are others suffering you should go forth and attempt to make their lives better the same way that the lord did with you. And you may notice that quite a few charities out are tied in someway to some religious affiliation, be it direct involvement, or support in the way of money, materials, and volunteers through local churches and religious organizations.

Now you may ask "why does god allow suffering in the first place?" That's a very good question, it's been debated by both believers and non believers, alike. The best answer that the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim community is "free will." That god allows humans to make their own choices in life, be they to the benefit or the suffering of others. If God where to come down and correct every injustice or act of cruelty in the world, then you would no longer have free will. You would have something similar to say the Justice League episode, "A better world." Which I believe was inspired by the comic series The Authority.

Let's take this board, if Denny where to come down and drop the ban hammer on anyone who said something snide, mean, hurtful, or anytime anyone has a dispute, or even a difference of opinion, in order to keep such a dispute from happening, ask yourself, is that the kind of board you wish to visit?

That's the best answer I can give to the question, I'm sorry if it's not enough. But I would point out that no religion or philosophy is ever going to come with a 100% satisfactory answer as to the question "Why?" when it comes to suffering. But they can come up with an answer to, "what should we do about it?" and do the best to come up with a solution with what they have available. Even if said solution, isn't a far reaching or perfect one.

The rich man and Denny are not omnipotent and omniscient beings responsible for inventing the universe. Giving such a being credit for the good things and zero of the blame for the bad things is absurd.

[Tyr]

I'm very familiar with the reasoning that "good things happen= God's will. Bad things happen= free will OR God works in mysterious ways." I think it's remarkably silly. Even if it were true then, at best, God is being a douche to alot of people because they had the misfortune to be born in a certain part of the world. Why? Who knows? He won't tell us. I don't see why such a creature would be worthy of worship.

The rich man and Denny are not omnipotent and omniscient beings responsible for inventing the universe. Giving such a being credit for the good things and zero of the blame for the bad things is absurd.

Well that's your right to believe that, like I said, there's no perfect answer to the question "why?" And even us Christians still struggle with that question.

Exhibit A

[19bernardo87]

Do you guys have any recommendations for Podcasts/Blogs?
I listen to Point Of Inquiry and Reasonable Doubts, as well as ready Why Evolution Is True and Pharyngula.