Marvel 2012: Avengers vs. the X-men

[Black Roman]

Come on. The Avengers weren't up there hanging out, they were there to go in and take Hope by force. That's an invasion. If three cops kick down your door with guns drawn, that's an invasion of your home. The fact that it wasn't a thousand cops doesn't change the basic invasion-y-ness.


Yeah, they tend to bristle a bit when faced with threats to mutantkind. That might be because they have a continuous history of being threatened with extinction, and are closer to that eventuality now than ever. The onus is not on mutants, at this point, to reach out to the rest of the planet. If I beat you up every day on the way to school and take your lunch money, you don't have any responsibility to help me if you see someone beating me up and taking my lunch money. The fact that Cyke's X-Men have helped the rest of the planet at all shows how much the X-Men really are good guys. If they're so desperate, at this point, to survive as a species that they're turning to the Phoenix, that's not a reflection on them--it's a reflection on what the rest of the planet has done to them. Or, in the case of the Avengers, allowed to have done to them.

And again, it boils down to this: no matter what the ultimate morality is, here, the fact that Cap and the Avengers didn't make any attempt to approach the X-Men on this issue before it reached the end-of-the-world stage makes Cap and the Avengers the bad guys.

To echo what HOOKS said... I love you.



Let's get married in the fall.

[Cth]

That might be because they have a continuous history of being threatened with extinction, and are closer to that eventuality now than ever. The onus is not on mutants, at this point, to reach out to the rest of the planet. If I beat you up every day on the way to school and take your lunch money, you don't have any responsibility to help me if you see someone beating me up and taking my lunch money. The fact that Cyke's X-Men have helped the rest of the planet at all shows how much the X-Men really are good guys. If they're so desperate, at this point, to survive as a species that they're turning to the Phoenix, that's not a reflection on them--it's a reflection on what the rest of the planet has done to them. Or, in the case of the Avengers, allowed to have done to them.

By that reasoning, due to Magneto's actions alone, the Avengers don't have any responsibility to help out the X-Men. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Do the X-Men want help or not? The Avengers have offered numerous times, as pointed out many times in the thread, and they have been refused each time. Short sighted pride issues aside, it's a poor way to react when the "rest of the planet' reaches out to mutant kind.

As for being "desperate", it's not ok when the Avengers are desperate to save the Earth, but it's ok if the X-Men are desperate to save only mutants?

Again, the Avengers have reached out, offered to help, even helped change the perception of mutants by putting high profile mutants on their team. To say they haven't done enough is being specious and flat out ignoring facts

As for approaching the X-Men, look at it from their perspective.. the X-Men were aware of a potentially dangerous situation and rather than reassure anyone or even inform them, they choose to keep it quiet and cover it up. So, no one can be blamed for reacting when conspiracies are being formed to protect the 1% when 99% of the rest of the 616 is in danger. Bad guys conspire and hide the truth, which makes the X-men the bad guys -- especially when most of the team is made up of bad guys.

Had Cyclops contacted Cap and said, "Hey, just in case you guys aren't aware, the Phoenix is on its way, but have no worries, we know how to control it, we have experience in this sort of thing. Please trust us to handle this." there'd be no problem. Instead, he chose to keep the world in the dark on the selfish hope he can use the Phoenix force to change the world to one where mutants are in charge.

Hardly the actions of a good guy. Even Magneto hasn't gone that far.

[Black Roman]

By that reasoning, due to Magneto's actions alone, the Avengers don't have any responsibility to help out the X-Men. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Do the X-Men want help or not? The Avengers have offered numerous times, as pointed out many times in the thread, and they have been refused each time. Short sighted pride issues aside, it's a poor way to react when the "rest of the planet' reaches out to mutant kind.

As for being "desperate", it's not ok when the Avengers are desperate to save the Earth, but it's ok if the X-Men are desperate to save only mutants?

Again, the Avengers have reached out, offered to help, even helped change the perception of mutants by putting high profile mutants on their team. To say they haven't done enough is being specious and flat out ignoring facts

As for approaching the X-Men, look at it from their perspective.. the X-Men were aware of a potentially dangerous situation and rather than reassure anyone or even inform them, they choose to keep it quiet and cover it up. So, no one can be blamed for reacting when conspiracies are being formed to protect the 1% when 99% of the rest of the 616 is in danger. Bad guys conspire and hide the truth, which makes the X-men the bad guys -- especially when most of the team is made up of bad guys.

Had Cyclops contacted Cap and said, "Hey, just in case you guys aren't aware, the Phoenix is on its way, but have no worries, we know how to control it, we have experience in this sort of thing. Please trust us to handle this." there'd be no problem. Instead, he chose to keep the world in the dark on the selfish hope he can use the Phoenix force to change the world to one where mutants are in charge.

Hardly the actions of a good guy. Even Magneto hasn't gone that far.

Whoa whoa whoa, when did Cyclops ever give the indication that he wants a world where mutants are in charge of everything? He just wants his people to not be a persecuted minority anymore, but he can't focus on goodwill missions to the human world when mutantkind is down to its last 300 +/- members and could be completely wiped out with one well planned attack.

I mean, let's not forget that these Avengers who are suddenly so concerned with the X-Men's affairs were 9 times out 10 nowhere to be found when the shit was going down. Why should Cyclops trust them?

He even said so himself, the only time the Avengers care about the affairs of mutantkind is when it directly effects them, any other time, it's business as usual.

[bachman]

As for approaching the X-Men, look at it from their perspective.. the X-Men were aware of a potentially dangerous situation and rather than reassure anyone or even inform them, they choose to keep it quiet and cover it up. So, no one can be blamed for reacting when conspiracies are being formed to protect the 1% when 99% of the rest of the 616 is in danger. Bad guys conspire and hide the truth, which makes the X-men the bad guys -- especially when most of the team is made up of bad guys.

This

[Black Roman]

Because good guys never conceal the truth from people. Ever. They're always forthcoming with every little bit of information that they receive, regardless. Yeah. Sure. Let's not forget that the X-Men have forgotten more about the Phoenix than the Avengers will ever know.


I don't see the X-Men accosting the FF when Galactus or Annihilus comes knocking.

[HOOKS]

Come on. The Avengers weren't up there hanging out, they were there to go in and take Hope by force. That's an invasion. If three cops kick down your door with guns drawn, that's an invasion of your home. The fact that it wasn't a thousand cops, or a tank regiment, doesn't change the basic invasion-y-ness.


Yeah, they tend to bristle a bit when faced with threats to mutantkind. That might be because they have a continuous history of being threatened with extinction, and are closer to that eventuality now than ever. The onus is not on mutants, at this point, to reach out to the rest of the planet. If I beat you up every day on the way to school and take your lunch money, you don't have any responsibility to help me if you see someone beating me up and taking my lunch money. The fact that Cyke's X-Men have helped the rest of the planet at all shows how much the X-Men really are good guys. If they're so desperate, at this point, to survive as a species that they're turning to the Phoenix, that's not a reflection on them--it's a reflection on what the rest of the planet has done to them. Or, in the case of the Avengers, allowed to have done to them.

And again, it boils down to this: no matter what the ultimate morality is, here, the fact that Cap and the Avengers didn't make any attempt to approach the X-Men on this issue before it reached the end-of-the-world stage makes Cap and the Avengers the bad guys.

I love you more than Black Roman does.

To continue where you started, if the X-Men were villains and didn't care about the planet, they'd go up in space (they have plenty of friends with spaceships), hang out with Hope until the Phoenix came, see what happened to the planet first before deciding whether or not Hope should receive its power. And if the Earth got scorched, oh well. They have plenty of friends who live on other planets who don't give a damn about if they are mutants or not. The X-Men remaining on Earth says a lot when they have so many other options.

[Black Roman]

If an army were to show up on the doorstep of another country, uninvited, ARMED, then precede to make demands about things. How do you think that country (ANY country) would react to this?

Hell, can you imagine if someone did that to America? The uproar there would be?

If you answered, not well, well sir, you win a cookie.

[HOOKS]

I don't see the X-Men accosting the FF when Galactus or Annihilus comes knocking.

If the X-Men weren't wearing hoodies...

[Black Roman]

I love you more than Black Roman does.

To continue where you started, if the X-Men were villains and didn't care about the planet, they'd go up in space (they have plenty of friends with spaceships), hang out with Hope until the Phoenix came, see what happened to the planet first before deciding whether or not Hope should receive its power. And if the Earth got scorched, oh well. They have plenty of friends who live on other planets who don't give a damn about if they are mutants or not. The X-Men remaining on Earth says a lot when they have so many other options.

Bingo. Not to mention their ability to potentially visit alternate realities (hell, Legion could probably CREATE them a mutant utopia if that's all they wanted.)

[DAVE]

What's next? A group of mutants waiting for a comet to take them away?

I love you more than Black Roman does.

To continue where you started, if the X-Men were villains and didn't care about the planet, they'd go up in space (they have plenty of friends with spaceships), hang out with Hope until the Phoenix came, see what happened to the planet first before deciding whether or not Hope should receive its power. And if the Earth got scorched, oh well. They have plenty of friends who live on other planets who don't give a damn about if they are mutants or not. The X-Men remaining on Earth says a lot when they have so many other options.

Well there we have it, Hooks has gone full Hale-Bopp on us.