Marvel 2012: Avengers vs. the X-men

[Cth]

Why, exactly, does Hope need to be taken anywhere? Whatever measures need to be taken, why can't they be taken on Utopia with the X-Men's involvement?

There are eventualities that would justify taking Hope away by force. But the fact that taking Hope away was the first thing the Avengers tried makes them the bad guys, here.

The same reason court cases with high emotions involved tend to be relocated away from those close to the situation.

There's bound to be mutants who have grown close to Hope or bought into the hype of her status as messiah. Even a hint of someone suggesting ANY sort of action could result in a Branch Davidian compound type meltdown.

Cap approached the self appointed leader, treating him like an adult and a leader, someone who should reason that emotions are too high to discuss the issue in the middle of a mutant capital which could result in a larger conflict worldwide. Imagine if news got out that some nameless mutant killed Captain America because they felt the Avengers were going to take away their prophesized messiah. The entire world would explode launching attacks on Utopia.

Cap was wrong in Civil War, but here, he was right. Especially since the opposing side thinks the best way to train children is to beat them senseless, train them for war, shunt them off into a compound and prepare for invasion. Koresh was wrong, and so is Cyclops.

What's next? A group of mutants waiting for a comet to take them away?

[motorfirebox]

The same reason court cases with high emotions involved tend to be relocated away from those close to the situation.

There's bound to be mutants who have grown close to Hope or bought into the hype of her status as messiah. Even a hint of someone suggesting ANY sort of action could result in a Branch Davidian compound type meltdown.

Cap approached the self appointed leader, treating him like an adult and a leader, someone who should reason that emotions are too high to discuss the issue in the middle of a mutant capital which could result in a larger conflict worldwide. Imagine if news got out that some nameless mutant killed Captain America because they felt the Avengers were going to take away their prophesized messiah. The entire world would explode launching attacks on Utopia.

Cap was wrong in Civil War, but here, he was right. Especially since the opposing side thinks the best way to train children is to beat them senseless, train them for war, shunt them off into a compound and prepare for invasion. Koresh was wrong, and so is Cyclops.

What's next? A group of mutants waiting for a comet to take them away?

Does not compute. Showing up with a helicarrier full of your superpowered troops is not approaching the leader and treating him like an adult, it's yelling at him through a bullhorn to come out with his hands up. And Utopia wasn't a closed compound until the Avengers showed up in force to not-really-ask for Hope. Any other day of the week, Cap or any of the other Avengers could have walked in, said "Hey, what's up," and kicked back with the X-Men. Meet the kids being trained. Get more information about Hope and the Phoenix Force before the emergency situation that everyone and their brother knew was coming actually occurred, and start coordinating with the X-Men--the guys who have, y'know, actually dealt with the Phoenix on multiple occasions--on how best to deal with it.

Part of Cap's failure, here, is that he waited until the last second. This Phoenix thing isn't news. If his hand is forced, it's because he forced it by waiting too long. The fact that he didn't have enough respect for mutantkind to open up a dialogue with them on this issue before everything got end-of-the-world-y is a huge part of the problem. Cap. Is. The bad guy. (But he was right during Civil War!)

[joeAR]

Holy crap!!!!! Read #2 and it was amazing

So many great moments. The most expensive punch in history, Cap's shield meeting Cyclops's head, illyana outsmarting doc strange. Loved it!

[HOOKS]

Does not compute. Showing up with a helicarrier full of your superpowered troops is not approaching the leader and treating him like an adult, it's yelling at him through a bullhorn to come out with his hands up. And Utopia wasn't a closed compound until the Avengers showed up in force to not-really-ask for Hope. Any other day of the week, Cap or any of the other Avengers could have walked in, said "Hey, what's up," and kicked back with the X-Men. Meet the kids being trained. Get more information about Hope and the Phoenix Force before the emergency situation that everyone and their brother knew was coming actually occurred, and start coordinating with the X-Men--the guys who have, y'know, actually dealt with the Phoenix on multiple occasions--on how best to deal with it.

Part of Cap's failure, here, is that he waited until the last second. This Phoenix thing isn't news. If his hand is forced, it's because he forced it by waiting too long. The fact that he didn't have enough respect for mutantkind to open up a dialogue with them on this issue before everything got end-of-the-world-y is a huge part of the problem. Cap. Is. The bad guy. (But he was right during Civil War!)

I love you.

[Marcdachamp]

Okay AvX Versus #1 was one of the most fun damn comics I've ever read. Namor should have owned the Thing, but that's a pretty small quibble. This was a blast.

I'm starting to wish I'd pre-ordered the whole mini instead of selectively buying issues.

[Cth]

Showing up with your team on a ship that can carry them is hardly an invading force.

If they showed up with ten quinjets, you'd still call it an invasion force.

That's what playing the victim does. They always play the mutant card and cry out INVASION!

As far as closed compounds go, recall the Bastion/Sentinel invasion.

Any other day of the week, Cap or any of the other Avengers could have walked in, said "Hey, what's up," and kicked back with the X-Men. Meet the kids being trained.

"Jesus Christ Cyclops, quit hitting all those kids. I know you have a thing for red heads, but you don't have to take the red-headed step child thing literally!!"

Part of Cap's failure, here, is that he waited until the last second. This Phoenix thing isn't news. If his hand is forced, it's because he forced it by waiting too long. The fact that he didn't have enough respect for mutantkind to open up a dialogue with them on this issue before everything got end-of-the-world-y is a huge part of the problem. Cap. Is. The bad guy. (But he was right during Civil War!)

Where were the mutants when Nova crashed after being attacked by the Phoenix? No where. They don't care about saving the world, that's just PR talk. If you're not a mutant who's tried to conquer the world, you don't matter to them.

Cap is hardly the bad guy. Cyclops is the bad guy. Magneto is a bad guy. Namor is a bad guy. The White Queen is a bad guy. See a pattern?

Cyclops is the worst person when it comes to kids, he's hardly objective. He sends his own kid into the future, he sends Hope into the future. Cyclop's solutions are the equivalent of throwing trash on the ground expecting someone else to clean it up for him. Toss it into the future -- "I can't deal with that right now!" The guy is the worst person to make decisions when it comes to kids. I mean, seriously, beating a teenager half to death to prepare her? Who knows what other kids of abuse Cyclops endorses inside that mutant compound?

[DAVE]

Showing up with your team on a ship that can carry them is hardly an invading force.

If they showed up with ten quinjets, you'd still call it an invasion force.

That's what playing the victim does. They always play the mutant card and cry out INVASION!

As far as closed compounds go, recall the Bastion/Sentinel invasion.



"Jesus Christ Cyclops, quit hitting all those kids. I know you have a thing for red heads, but you don't have to take the red-headed step child thing literally!!"



Where were the mutants when Nova crashed after being attacked by the Phoenix? No where. They don't care about saving the world, that's just PR talk. If you're not a mutant who's tried to conquer the world, you don't matter to them.

Cap is hardly the bad guy. Cyclops is the bad guy. Magneto is a bad guy. Namor is a bad guy. The White Queen is a bad guy. See a pattern?

Cyclops is the worst person when it comes to kids, he's hardly objective. He sends his own kid into the future, he sends Hope into the future. Cyclop's solutions are the equivalent of throwing trash on the ground expecting someone else to clean it up for him. Toss it into the future -- "I can't deal with that right now!" The guy is the worst person to make decisions when it comes to kids. I mean, seriously, beating a teenager half to death to prepare her? Who knows what other kids of abuse Cyclops endorses inside that mutant compound?

And in The Avengers:The X-Sanction Cyclops sees Cable being a complete nutcase, attacking the Avengers out of the blue for no reason, and afterwards promises the guy he'll do what he wants him to do.

[HOOKS]

I am not going to respond to most of Cth's racism, but I should point something out.

Cyclops is the worst person when it comes to kids, he's hardly objective. He sends his own kid into the future, he sends Hope into the future. Cyclop's solutions are the equivalent of throwing trash on the ground expecting someone else to clean it up for him. Toss it into the future -- "I can't deal with that right now!" The guy is the worst person to make decisions when it comes to kids. I mean, seriously, beating a teenager half to death to prepare her? Who knows what other kids of abuse Cyclops endorses inside that mutant compound?

Cyclops went into the future to raise his son, the boy who would become Cable, with his wife, for 12 years. Cable is now pushing about 80. Clearly he knows a thing or two on how to raise a child to live a long life.

Another of Cyclops' offspring is Rachel Summers, who is currently in her early 20s, and has contained the power of the Phoenix all by herself.

Hope is currently 17 or 18, and her story is not done yet. He also entrusted his adopted granddaughter to his son, and they both survived not just an apocalyptic future, but a homicidal maniac who was out to kill them both.

Now the homicidal maniac is not named Bishop. His name is Captain America. And Cyclops is doing his best to protect his race, and their future, from future casualties.

[Cth]

Cyclops went into the future to raise his son, the boy who would become Cable, with his wife, for 12 years. Cable is now pushing about 80. Clearly he knows a thing or two on how to raise a child to live a long life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adv...ps_and_Phoenix

And I quote..

"The series takes place shortly after the wedding of Cyclops and Jean Grey in X-Men #30, some time after the events of X-Factor #68 (approximately 3 years in real time, but perhaps only a year or less in the timeline of the comic books)."

So, he tosses an unwanted baby into the future to fend for itself.

Let's not forget that the mere act of tossing the kid into the future resulted in Stryfe

Yes, he eventually raised the kid, after he was dragged into the future with no way of returning. It's hardly like he went around to Reed Richards, Forge, or anyone else asking for ways to get to the future to protect his kid.

Another of Cyclops' offspring is Rachel Summers, who is currently in her early 20s, and has contained the power of the Phoenix all by herself.

Hope is currently 17 or 18, and her story is not done yet. He also entrusted his adopted granddaughter to his son, and they both survived not just an apocalyptic future, but a homicidal maniac who was out to kill them both.

Now the homicidal maniac is not named Bishop. His name is Captain America. And Cyclops is doing his best to protect his race, and their future, from future casualties.

Rachel Summer -- FROM AN ALTERNATE TIMELINE. In other words, another reality where rules may not be the same. Hope is from "our" reality so there's no guarantee she would do the same. And besides, unless Hope is Summer's kid, then the comparison is moot.

Master tactician and guy fond of throwing his problems into the future, decides to beat Hope senseless rather than approach Rachel. Genius.

When it comes to red heads, Cyclops becomes a complete idiot.

[HOOKS]

So, he tosses an unwanted baby into the future to fend for itself.

It was either send his child to the future so he may possibly live, or watch him die in the here and now.

If you were a father, would you be able to live with yourself as your child died in your arms, knowing there was a way to save him and he rejected it?