Anyone Following The Arizona Saga?

[Kevin T Brown]

You agree with a factual statement.

Some people have difficulty in agreeing with a factual statement though.

I agree with what Arizona was trying to do, but not in their implementation of that attempt. The law, as originally conceived, would allow for racial profilng. And even though most of the illegal immigrants in AZ are from Mexico, it's still wrong to profile like that.

[CougarTrace]

The two ranchers that were killed by the cartel in Arizona and the countless damage to property, robberies,etc in border towns needs to be fixed. The cartel even put dynamite on a Texas dam to try to flood out people. In any other scenario, these people would be called terrorists.

You can say all you want that that it would lead to profiling the fact is the towns and cities need help.

Arizona was trying to help their citizens. How would you suggest they do it?

Its an answer the federal government doesn't really want any part of except with shallow words that mean nothing to the residents.

[Reverend Smooth]

The thing is, the cartel is not comprised of the vast majority of illegals who come here. By undercutting the cartels and making it easier for the people in whom they traffick (along with drugs, etc) to find alternatives, it should help cut some of that crime.

It reminds me a lot of prohibition and the present war on drugs. At some point you have to abandon the reactionary instincts and move to short-circuit what fuels the criminal behavior circling around the issue-- at present, people trying to cross the border so they can find some means of livelihood.

Tangentially, how it undercuts citizens by forcing wages down in certain ob markets to where actual citizens can't afford to take those jobs, and allowing companies to continue to allow inhumane and dangerous working conditions, in order to cut costs.

[Stressfactor]

The two ranchers that were killed by the cartel in Arizona and the countless damage to property, robberies,etc in border towns needs to be fixed. The cartel even put dynamite on a Texas dam to try to flood out people. In any other scenario, these people would be called terrorists.

You can say all you want that that it would lead to profiling the fact is the towns and cities need help.

Arizona was trying to help their citizens. How would you suggest they do it?

Its an answer the federal government doesn't really want any part of except with shallow words that mean nothing to the residents.

And Mexico needs to do their part too.

If these guys are doing cross-border raids then when they cross BACK there isn't a damn thing American law enforcement can do.

And picking someone up and asking for their papers isn't going to help out in the hinter-ranchlands. It might help in cities and more populous areas but it really won't help that much in the kind of cross-border raids you're giving examples of.

Patrols, yes, fences, deterents, cameras, etc. Those things will help but finding someone driving erratically and then asking them for papers probably won't help all that much. You're describing Quantrill's Raiders type tactics. Also, unless American law enforement can also prove that a person committed a crime on American soil all they'll do is deport the criminals back to Mexico where they'll just hook up with their cartels again and do it alllll over again.

The only things this hurts are the ones who were poor and spent all their money paying someone to smuggle them across and then when they are sent back they're too broke to afford to pay someone to smuggle them in again.

That's the ONLY people this law will really keep out permanently.

It's kind of like this Chicken Snake my uncle ran into once. It was headed for a nest of baby birds. He went and got a shovel and scooped up the snake and flung it away over a fence. The snake came back. He scooped it up again and flung it away over a fence. It came back again. At that point my uncle killed it.

The Cartel are like that chicken snake -- they won't give up unless they're dead.

And, as I said before, not even the freakin' Eastern Block countries ever COMPLETELY sealed their borders and they resorted to tactics that by most standards would be considered inhumane.

What, should we land mine the border zone?

[Reverend Smooth]

We should allow them to apply for citizenship and give them temporary work visas until their paperwork goes through. x.x Immigrants are usually a positive contribution to the workforce. They already pay taxes-- yes, illegal immigrants usually have their wages docked for payroll taxes by their employer.

[Stressfactor]

We should allow them to apply for citizenship and give them temporary work visas until their paperwork goes through. x.x Immigrants are usually a positive contribution to the workforce. They already pay taxes-- yes, illegal immigrants usually have their wages docked for payroll taxes by their employer.

This. Also, issue MORE temporary work visas for those who maybe DON'T really want to become Americans they just want to work here. So let them work and let them pay taxes and let them stay for a while and then go home when they've done what they wanted to.

Or then if they decide to stay let them apply for citizenship and perhaps take the number of years they've worked on their temporary work visas into consideration on their citizenship track.

[Evan Waters]

Arizona was trying to help their citizens. How would you suggest they do it?

"We've got to do SOMETHING!" is never a justification for bad law.

[Reverend Smooth]

Yeah, I'm down with that. Though they're probably already paying taxes, at least they can do so under a legitimate identity. (Which is another thing this would help curb, identity theft.)

[CougarTrace]

So, if the cartel tried to blow up a Texas dam which would have killed and harmed many American citizens, that doesn't concern anyone. These type of acts are terrorist type of acts.

Mexico can't and won't help. They are at the mercy of the crime.

[Stressfactor]

Over on the YABS board someone had in their sig a quote by MacQuarrie that went something along the lines of... "If you're doing something out of fear then you're probably wrong."