bendis/kirkman debate q.

[nick maynard]

I find that hard to believe.


Again, I think that's an oversimplification.

im only talking about my experience. i've given friends new avengers, civil war, enemy of the state, daredevil, dark knight returns, kindom come, new frontier, fraction's invincible iron man, brubaker's captain america, etc., and only one person (out of the many people) has asked for another. they've all said they liked it, but only one person asked for more. and that guy just asked for more to borrow from me. he's not going to the store.

meanwhile, i can think of 5 people off the top of my head that go to stores semi-regularly after me letting them borrow y the last man, walking dead, mouse guard, or scott pilgrim, for example.

i love both kinds of comics equally. i just love good stories, and im familiar with the continuity of the two big universes. but in my experience, no one has ever read civil war and then gone and bought new avengers trades, while people have read scott pilgrim: precious little life and gone out and bought all of the other scott pilgrim books the next day. none of my friends read sinestro corps and went out and bought rebirth, while i lent my friend the first walking dead trade and now he buys walking dead in issues while his roommate buys the hardcovers.

as far as getting people to love comics, we3 works and batman rip does not, in my experience.

[esc0]

I have to side with Bendis on this. I look at it like any other business such as film, television, or music. Unless you've made a name for yourself there's really no chance in hell you could become successful. The exception being if you and your idea are that damn awesome to attract enough attention.

What Marvel has done recently has been brilliant in regards to product exposure and increasing their revenues. Their move to create their own movie studio, getting comic adaptions of novels, and digital comics are great moves.

They just need to continue improving especially their website and the digital comics they offer.

2 things Marvel could easily do would be:

1- Offer digital comics of new comics and charge them individually or charge a higher subscription fee.

2- Create a creator owned comics section free of charge on marvel.com where creators can be allowed to upload full comics, art, or scripts and users can view them,download them and rate them. This would be a youtube,funnyordie, or Microsoft XNA site

[TomBelandTSSTG]

I've never made money off TSSTG. I made just enough to print the next issue. When I went to Image, I thought there'd be more money for me, since I'll have a better placement in the Diamond catalogue and, hey, they're Image!!

In the eleven, nearly twelve issues I've made for Image, I haven't made money for them in profits. Not a dime. It could come out more, that's for sure, but this book is just too personal for me to just pump-out to make it a monthly deadline. It's a very difficult thing to do, seeing how it's romance AND autobio. So I want it to be perfect before it goes out.

And Brian was dead-on when he tells you how mentally damaging it is to get that notice and you see the numbers. It's a huge thing to overcome. It's so personal that you almost don't want people to see it, but you know that some people love it and you hope there will be more. But there aren't.

They've done two trades for me. The last trade loss two grand so far. Again, it's devastating. I cannot correctly put into words how it kills you inside. Because it's that personal.

That said. When Brian says that most independent books cannot survive a three issue drop in sales, I can only say that Image has stood by the book for eleven issues. Twelve issues soon. They've yet to send me a note that says I need to get the numbers higher or else. Every time we've lost money, they've taken the next issue and put it out there. That's a shitload of support and encouragement. The goodness it brings is as impossible to put into words as the pain of the numbers. It's that powerful.

Now, having said that, I have to say THIS. I work a LOT on my book. It takes me forever to get the thing the way I want it to be. And after all those months and days and hours I pour into TSSTG... I've yet to be able to pay a bill from it.

That's where Marvel saves me. They'll contact me and ask me if I want to write a Spidey book about Valentine's Day or a Fantastic Four book about family. I'll work at it and, since it's super-heroes and nothing based in reality and they're not my characters, I can just chill for a couple of days and write a script that's fun and I'll get a check for three grand. Three grand to hand to my wife and pay bills with.

Which brings me to another point. As much as I love doing TSSTG, as an independent creator, I pay for everything. I pay for the printing, the pre-press, the shipping, the storage, I even pay for that great ad placement. Image doesn't do it for free. So when I make a book, there's that much pressure to make it as good as the last issue. Six Eisner nominations haven't yet allowed me to cash-in on TSSTG, although that was never my goal.

For Marvel, I write the script and I don't have to worry about the advertising or the storage or the shipping costs. It's three grand, a handshake and off to the bank. You cannot ask a creator to give that up. I know, because I'm a big boy, that anything I create for Marvel... will BELONG to Marvel. It's my choice and it's something I'm fine with. It's a dream to do and it pays great. So does Bongo.

And writing for Marvel has never ONCE taken me away from the love I have with my book. That's my first-born. TSSTG is a love letter to my wife that I don't mind other people reading. As awesome as it is to see a Marvel book with my name on the credits, it's a drop in the bucket compared to seeing an issue of TSSTG on the shelf, alongside all the other indie books. It's breathtaking.

So, what I'm confused about is how intense the needs to work for one or the other is. I love doing both. I adore doing both. Both companies have brought so many of my dreams to life and you cannot tell me that I would be better off going one way over another.

Here's my thought. Everyone should experience that moment where you work your ass off on a comic book. One that you created and poured your words and art over. And you should walk into a strange comics shop and watch someone read your book and then buy it. You will never see that boner go down. Never.

But even so, you should also know the experience of doing something on the big stage. You should EMBRACE playing Broadway. You should experience that joy of walking onto the grass at Wrigley on a summer afternoon. You should understand for yourself the inexplainable joy of slipping on the Spidey suit. The REAL one. It's something that is as bizarre as it is joyous.

And wait till you see your check arrive in an envelope with Spidey on it and you then discover that he's on your check as well. And then get that "I am awesome" feeling when the hot lady bank teller smiles at your check and tells you that what you do is "cool."

Seriously, you HAVE to experience both those moments. The indie moment, and the mainstream moment.

Both. Both totally rock. And if you grew up reading a super-hero book... and you get a shot to write or draw that character... you fucking seize it. You go for it like you're the first person to find gold in California.

And when you take in the awesome feeling from that experience... you should stop and realize that THIS dream came true, not because you stood in line for seven hours to get your portfolio reviewed. Not because you've been mailing in scripts over and over. Nope.

You realize that you have this moment in your life, because someone at Marvel simply enjoys your book. Your independent book is the sole reason you're writing Spider-Man. And when you realize this, you cannot help but sit down at the table and work on your next issue. Because when something makes one of your dreams come true, you not only love it, you also respect it. And you want those people who gave you that opportunity to enjoy the next issue as much as they have.

It makes you love your book so much, that you will confront your worst nightmare for one reason. You have to do another issue. I had a hand tremor for three months and the only reason it's getting better is because I want to do my next issue so much. It's because I love my series. I will face overcoming a hand tremor for it.

Marvel can't top that feeling. It can't take my heart away from my own work. But it's still a dream, regardless. There's what you love... and what you'd love to do.

TRUE STORY, SWEAR TO GOD is what I love.

Marvel Comics is what I love to do.

There's a difference. But both are done out of love.

[John M. Coker (Johnny C.)]

I've never made money off TSSTG. I made just enough to print the next issue. When I went to Image, I thought there'd be more money for me, since I'll have a better placement in the Diamond catalogue and, hey, they're Image!!

In the eleven, nearly twelve issues I've made for Image, I haven't made money for them in profits. Not a dime. It could come out more, that's for sure, but this book is just too personal for me to just pump-out to make it a monthly deadline. It's a very difficult thing to do, seeing how it's romance AND autobio. So I want it to be perfect before it goes out.

And Brian was dead-on when he tells you how mentally damaging it is to get that notice and you see the numbers. It's a huge thing to overcome. It's so personal that you almost don't want people to see it, but you know that some people love it and you hope there will be more. But there aren't.

They've done two trades for me. The last trade loss two grand so far. Again, it's devastating. I cannot correctly put into words how it kills you inside. Because it's that personal.

That said. When Brian says that most independent books cannot survive a three issue drop in sales, I can only say that Image has stood by the book for eleven issues. Twelve issues soon. They've yet to send me a note that says I need to get the numbers higher or else. Every time we've lost money, they've taken the next issue and put it out there. That's a shitload of support and encouragement. The goodness it brings is as impossible to put into words as the pain of the numbers. It's that powerful.

Now, having said that, I have to say THIS. I work a LOT on my book. It takes me forever to get the thing the way I want it to be. And after all those months and days and hours I pour into TSSTG... I've yet to be able to pay a bill from it.

That's where Marvel saves me. They'll contact me and ask me if I want to write a Spidey book about Valentine's Day or a Fantastic Four book about family. I'll work at it and, since it's super-heroes and nothing based in reality and they're not my characters, I can just chill for a couple of days and write a script that's fun and I'll get a check for three grand. Three grand to hand to my wife and pay bills with.

Which brings me to another point. As much as I love doing TSSTG, as an independent creator, I pay for everything. I pay for the printing, the pre-press, the shipping, the storage, I even pay for that great ad placement. Image doesn't do it for free. So when I make a book, there's that much pressure to make it as good as the last issue. Six Eisner nominations haven't yet allowed me to cash-in on TSSTG, although that was never my goal.

For Marvel, I write the script and I don't have to worry about the advertising or the storage or the shipping costs. It's three grand, a handshake and off to the bank. You cannot ask a creator to give that up. I know, because I'm a big boy, that anything I create for Marvel... will BELONG to Marvel. It's my choice and it's something I'm fine with. It's a dream to do and it pays great. So does Bongo.

And writing for Marvel has never ONCE taken me away from the love I have with my book. That's my first-born. TSSTG is a love letter to my wife that I don't mind other people reading. As awesome as it is to see a Marvel book with my name on the credits, it's a drop in the bucket compared to seeing an issue of TSSTG on the shelf, alongside all the other indie books. It's breathtaking.

So, what I'm confused about is how intense the needs to work for one or the other is. I love doing both. I adore doing both. Both companies have brought so many of my dreams to life and you cannot tell me that I would be better off going one way over another.

Here's my thought. Everyone should experience that moment where you work your ass off on a comic book. One that you created and poured your words and art over. And you should walk into a strange comics shop and watch someone read your book and then buy it. You will never see that boner go down. Never.

But even so, you should also know the experience of doing something on the big stage. You should EMBRACE playing Broadway. You should experience that joy of walking onto the grass at Wrigley on a summer afternoon. You should understand for yourself the inexplainable joy of slipping on the Spidey suit. The REAL one. It's something that is as bizarre as it is joyous.

And wait till you see your check arrive in an envelope with Spidey on it and you then discover that he's on your check as well. And then get that "I am awesome" feeling when the hot lady bank teller smiles at your check and tells you that what you do is "cool."

Seriously, you HAVE to experience both those moments. The indie moment, and the mainstream moment.

Both. Both totally rock. And if you grew up reading a super-hero book... and you get a shot to write or draw that character... you fucking seize it. You go for it like you're the first person to find gold in California.

And when you take in the awesome feeling from that experience... you should stop and realize that THIS dream came true, not because you stood in line for seven hours to get your portfolio reviewed. Not because you've been mailing in scripts over and over. Nope.

You realize that you have this moment in your life, because someone at Marvel simply enjoys your book. Your independent book is the sole reason you're writing Spider-Man. And when you realize this, you cannot help but sit down at the table and work on your next issue. Because when something makes one of your dreams come true, you not only love it, you also respect it. And you want those people who gave you that opportunity to enjoy the next issue as much as they have.

It makes you love your book so much, that you will confront your worst nightmare for one reason. You have to do another issue. I had a hand tremor for three months and the only reason it's getting better is because I want to do my next issue so much. It's because I love my series. I will face overcoming a hand tremor for it.

Marvel can't top that feeling. It can't take my heart away from my own work. But it's still a dream, regardless. There's what you love... and what you'd love to do.

TRUE STORY, SWEAR TO GOD is what I love.

Marvel Comics is what I love to do.

There's a difference. But both are done out of love.

Thread closed!

Honestly, best post in this thread. And really ends this discussion.

[Nick Spencer]

I've never made money off TSSTG. I made just enough to print the next issue. When I went to Image, I thought there'd be more money for me, since I'll have a better placement in the Diamond catalogue and, hey, they're Image!!

In the eleven, nearly twelve issues I've made for Image, I haven't made money for them in profits. Not a dime. It could come out more, that's for sure, but this book is just too personal for me to just pump-out to make it a monthly deadline. It's a very difficult thing to do, seeing how it's romance AND autobio. So I want it to be perfect before it goes out.

And Brian was dead-on when he tells you how mentally damaging it is to get that notice and you see the numbers. It's a huge thing to overcome. It's so personal that you almost don't want people to see it, but you know that some people love it and you hope there will be more. But there aren't.

They've done two trades for me. The last trade loss two grand so far. Again, it's devastating. I cannot correctly put into words how it kills you inside. Because it's that personal.

That said. When Brian says that most independent books cannot survive a three issue drop in sales, I can only say that Image has stood by the book for eleven issues. Twelve issues soon. They've yet to send me a note that says I need to get the numbers higher or else. Every time we've lost money, they've taken the next issue and put it out there. That's a shitload of support and encouragement. The goodness it brings is as impossible to put into words as the pain of the numbers. It's that powerful.

Now, having said that, I have to say THIS. I work a LOT on my book. It takes me forever to get the thing the way I want it to be. And after all those months and days and hours I pour into TSSTG... I've yet to be able to pay a bill from it.

That's where Marvel saves me. They'll contact me and ask me if I want to write a Spidey book about Valentine's Day or a Fantastic Four book about family. I'll work at it and, since it's super-heroes and nothing based in reality and they're not my characters, I can just chill for a couple of days and write a script that's fun and I'll get a check for three grand. Three grand to hand to my wife and pay bills with.

Which brings me to another point. As much as I love doing TSSTG, as an independent creator, I pay for everything. I pay for the printing, the pre-press, the shipping, the storage, I even pay for that great ad placement. Image doesn't do it for free. So when I make a book, there's that much pressure to make it as good as the last issue. Six Eisner nominations haven't yet allowed me to cash-in on TSSTG, although that was never my goal.

For Marvel, I write the script and I don't have to worry about the advertising or the storage or the shipping costs. It's three grand, a handshake and off to the bank. You cannot ask a creator to give that up. I know, because I'm a big boy, that anything I create for Marvel... will BELONG to Marvel. It's my choice and it's something I'm fine with. It's a dream to do and it pays great. So does Bongo.

And writing for Marvel has never ONCE taken me away from the love I have with my book. That's my first-born. TSSTG is a love letter to my wife that I don't mind other people reading. As awesome as it is to see a Marvel book with my name on the credits, it's a drop in the bucket compared to seeing an issue of TSSTG on the shelf, alongside all the other indie books. It's breathtaking.

So, what I'm confused about is how intense the needs to work for one or the other is. I love doing both. I adore doing both. Both companies have brought so many of my dreams to life and you cannot tell me that I would be better off going one way over another.

Here's my thought. Everyone should experience that moment where you work your ass off on a comic book. One that you created and poured your words and art over. And you should walk into a strange comics shop and watch someone read your book and then buy it. You will never see that boner go down. Never.

But even so, you should also know the experience of doing something on the big stage. You should EMBRACE playing Broadway. You should experience that joy of walking onto the grass at Wrigley on a summer afternoon. You should understand for yourself the inexplainable joy of slipping on the Spidey suit. The REAL one. It's something that is as bizarre as it is joyous.

And wait till you see your check arrive in an envelope with Spidey on it and you then discover that he's on your check as well. And then get that "I am awesome" feeling when the hot lady bank teller smiles at your check and tells you that what you do is "cool."

Seriously, you HAVE to experience both those moments. The indie moment, and the mainstream moment.

Both. Both totally rock. And if you grew up reading a super-hero book... and you get a shot to write or draw that character... you fucking seize it. You go for it like you're the first person to find gold in California.

And when you take in the awesome feeling from that experience... you should stop and realize that THIS dream came true, not because you stood in line for seven hours to get your portfolio reviewed. Not because you've been mailing in scripts over and over. Nope.

You realize that you have this moment in your life, because someone at Marvel simply enjoys your book. Your independent book is the sole reason you're writing Spider-Man. And when you realize this, you cannot help but sit down at the table and work on your next issue. Because when something makes one of your dreams come true, you not only love it, you also respect it. And you want those people who gave you that opportunity to enjoy the next issue as much as they have.

It makes you love your book so much, that you will confront your worst nightmare for one reason. You have to do another issue. I had a hand tremor for three months and the only reason it's getting better is because I want to do my next issue so much. It's because I love my series. I will face overcoming a hand tremor for it.

Marvel can't top that feeling. It can't take my heart away from my own work. But it's still a dream, regardless. There's what you love... and what you'd love to do.

TRUE STORY, SWEAR TO GOD is what I love.

Marvel Comics is what I love to do.

There's a difference. But both are done out of love.

Great stuff. Thanks, Tom.

[Pat Loika]

I've never made money off TSSTG. I made just enough to print the next issue. When I went to Image, I thought there'd be more money for me, since I'll have a better placement in the Diamond catalogue and, hey, they're Image!!

In the eleven, nearly twelve issues I've made for Image, I haven't made money for them in profits. Not a dime. It could come out more, that's for sure, but this book is just too personal for me to just pump-out to make it a monthly deadline. It's a very difficult thing to do, seeing how it's romance AND autobio. So I want it to be perfect before it goes out.

And Brian was dead-on when he tells you how mentally damaging it is to get that notice and you see the numbers. It's a huge thing to overcome. It's so personal that you almost don't want people to see it, but you know that some people love it and you hope there will be more. But there aren't.

They've done two trades for me. The last trade loss two grand so far. Again, it's devastating. I cannot correctly put into words how it kills you inside. Because it's that personal.

That said. When Brian says that most independent books cannot survive a three issue drop in sales, I can only say that Image has stood by the book for eleven issues. Twelve issues soon. They've yet to send me a note that says I need to get the numbers higher or else. Every time we've lost money, they've taken the next issue and put it out there. That's a shitload of support and encouragement. The goodness it brings is as impossible to put into words as the pain of the numbers. It's that powerful.

Now, having said that, I have to say THIS. I work a LOT on my book. It takes me forever to get the thing the way I want it to be. And after all those months and days and hours I pour into TSSTG... I've yet to be able to pay a bill from it.

That's where Marvel saves me. They'll contact me and ask me if I want to write a Spidey book about Valentine's Day or a Fantastic Four book about family. I'll work at it and, since it's super-heroes and nothing based in reality and they're not my characters, I can just chill for a couple of days and write a script that's fun and I'll get a check for three grand. Three grand to hand to my wife and pay bills with.

Which brings me to another point. As much as I love doing TSSTG, as an independent creator, I pay for everything. I pay for the printing, the pre-press, the shipping, the storage, I even pay for that great ad placement. Image doesn't do it for free. So when I make a book, there's that much pressure to make it as good as the last issue. Six Eisner nominations haven't yet allowed me to cash-in on TSSTG, although that was never my goal.

For Marvel, I write the script and I don't have to worry about the advertising or the storage or the shipping costs. It's three grand, a handshake and off to the bank. You cannot ask a creator to give that up. I know, because I'm a big boy, that anything I create for Marvel... will BELONG to Marvel. It's my choice and it's something I'm fine with. It's a dream to do and it pays great. So does Bongo.

And writing for Marvel has never ONCE taken me away from the love I have with my book. That's my first-born. TSSTG is a love letter to my wife that I don't mind other people reading. As awesome as it is to see a Marvel book with my name on the credits, it's a drop in the bucket compared to seeing an issue of TSSTG on the shelf, alongside all the other indie books. It's breathtaking.

So, what I'm confused about is how intense the needs to work for one or the other is. I love doing both. I adore doing both. Both companies have brought so many of my dreams to life and you cannot tell me that I would be better off going one way over another.

Here's my thought. Everyone should experience that moment where you work your ass off on a comic book. One that you created and poured your words and art over. And you should walk into a strange comics shop and watch someone read your book and then buy it. You will never see that boner go down. Never.

But even so, you should also know the experience of doing something on the big stage. You should EMBRACE playing Broadway. You should experience that joy of walking onto the grass at Wrigley on a summer afternoon. You should understand for yourself the inexplainable joy of slipping on the Spidey suit. The REAL one. It's something that is as bizarre as it is joyous.

And wait till you see your check arrive in an envelope with Spidey on it and you then discover that he's on your check as well. And then get that "I am awesome" feeling when the hot lady bank teller smiles at your check and tells you that what you do is "cool."

Seriously, you HAVE to experience both those moments. The indie moment, and the mainstream moment.

Both. Both totally rock. And if you grew up reading a super-hero book... and you get a shot to write or draw that character... you fucking seize it. You go for it like you're the first person to find gold in California.

And when you take in the awesome feeling from that experience... you should stop and realize that THIS dream came true, not because you stood in line for seven hours to get your portfolio reviewed. Not because you've been mailing in scripts over and over. Nope.

You realize that you have this moment in your life, because someone at Marvel simply enjoys your book. Your independent book is the sole reason you're writing Spider-Man. And when you realize this, you cannot help but sit down at the table and work on your next issue. Because when something makes one of your dreams come true, you not only love it, you also respect it. And you want those people who gave you that opportunity to enjoy the next issue as much as they have.

It makes you love your book so much, that you will confront your worst nightmare for one reason. You have to do another issue. I had a hand tremor for three months and the only reason it's getting better is because I want to do my next issue so much. It's because I love my series. I will face overcoming a hand tremor for it.

Marvel can't top that feeling. It can't take my heart away from my own work. But it's still a dream, regardless. There's what you love... and what you'd love to do.

TRUE STORY, SWEAR TO GOD is what I love.

Marvel Comics is what I love to do.

There's a difference. But both are done out of love.

That's one of the best things I've ever read. Thank you for all the work that you do.

P.

[John M. Coker (Johnny C.)]

Ya know what Tom? For that amazing post, seriously, such a great post with so many great points-- for that amazing post, that great contribution to this thread and this board as a whole, Bendis owes you something. And you know what that something is-- he owes you Ultimate Spider-Man.

[TomBelandTSSTG]

Ya know what Tom? For that amazing post, seriously, such a great post with so many great points-- for that amazing post, that great contribution to this thread and this board as a whole, Bendis owes you something. And you know what that something is-- he owes you Ultimate Spider-Man.

Hah... maybe Ultimate Cloak and Dagger. That could be fun.

[John M. Coker (Johnny C.)]

Ultimate Rocket Racer?

[TomBelandTSSTG]

Ultimate Gibbon. Good ol' Marty!!