The Future of Comics?

[CraigM]

Something I thought about as I was waking up this morning and saw some posts by Goddard focused more on independent comics. Plus, with this board being host to studios such as Silent Devil and Ronin Studios, as well as indy creators Joshua Fikalov and Saul Colt, I figured it was a very appropiate question to ask ehre.

What's the future of comics in your eyes?

As we've seen the quality of comics go up over recent years, it seems like sales continue to decline. Is this because what we feel is quality isn't entertaining the masses, or is what many considered the renaissance of what's to come not what we thought it was anymore?

More now then ever, independent comics seem to be coming to the forefront. There are more of them. They continue to make their voices heard, but sometimes it's not loud enough. How do independent comics become a major staple in the comic industry so that people are buying their books?

How are people's minds (and retailers) going to be changed and brought into this world of independent comics? Is it going to happen? If so, how?

Independent Creators, does it feel like a neverending battle? Does it feel like that no matter what you do, it's never going to be enough? Or do you feel that the time is coming for independent comics to do what I think they will do, which is save the industry from crashing again?

I would love to get your thoughts on this.

Craig

[William Satterwhite]

I think the future of comics has to be a lot like the past where most "mainstream" comic sales take place outside of comic book stores. The best way to get retailers to focus more on indy books is to get Marvel and DC out of the way so that retailers have to focus more on indy comics sold exclusively through the direct market. I don't have any solid numbers or anything to support this but I strongly feel that the indy books that blew up and became phenominoms back in the 80's did so because Marvel and DC did a lot of business on the newstands and didn't depend on the direct market exclusively to sell their books. Retailers couldn't be slaves to the big boys so they were more open to books like TMNT, Cerebus and everything else.

[Jacob Lyon Goddard]

well, sales have shown that movies don't help, but academia does

Charles Burns, Chris Ware, R Crumb, Harvey Pekar, Adrian Tomine, Art Spegielman, Seth, ect...
all these guys have very well selling comics outside of fanboy circles, have earned legitimate publishing awards, have had an entire New York Times Magazine devoted to them, and have been accepted with open arms by both the literary and fine art worlds.
but most importantly, they are currently working on, or have been approached to create, major books for major publishing houses. the kind with large advances and not getting stuffed inbetween Manga and Ult X-Men vol 3 in the book store

these guys are joining the great american novelists, and they make comics


comics are going to be fine, i'd say even better then it's ever been before
you just have to be the best of the best

[Jono]

I think indie creators need to skip the direct comics market entirely and put all their efforts into getting their OGN's into book stores. Comic book stores have proven consistantly that they can't help you. Some are great, but most just want to sell X-men and Batman. They don't care about you, so why should you care about them?

[Bill?]

in the future all comics will be beamed directly into our heads from space while we ride around in our hovercars looking for robot hookers.


or maybe we will see more "indy" type marketing and production from "mainstream" companies as the corporations continue to get larger.

[CraigM]

I think indie creators need to skip the direct comics market entirely and put all their efforts into getting their OGN's into book stores. Comic book stores have proven consistantly that they can't help you. Some are great, but most just want to sell X-men and Batman. They don't care about you, so why should you care about them?

Yes, but it's extremely hard to print an OGN due to pricing.

Craig

[Persevering Guy]

in response to jojo and goddard, this is my dream/plan.

i think the novel reader will be surprised to pick a book off the shelf and see art, that if it appeals to their tastes, will draw them in and make them buy

[CraigM]

I think the future of comics has to be a lot like the past where most "mainstream" comic sales take place outside of comic book stores. The best way to get retailers to focus more on indy books is to get Marvel and DC out of the way so that retailers have to focus more on indy comics sold exclusively through the direct market. I don't have any solid numbers or anything to support this but I strongly feel that the indy books that blew up and became phenominoms back in the 80's did so because Marvel and DC did a lot of business on the newstands and didn't depend on the direct market exclusively to sell their books. Retailers couldn't be slaves to the big boys so they were more open to books like TMNT, Cerebus and everything else.

So, something that Marvel has been criticized over the past few weeks could actually help strengthen the market? I think if comic stores had to sell independent comics to stay afloat, then I could easily see the resurgence that I think so many of us have felt is coming, but hasn't quite hit yet. This needs to start happening, where people can buy their mainstream books at a bookstore, and buy their independents at the comic stores because that's what they're here for.

It feels like to me it isn't Marvel or DC that is killing the industry. It's the comic stores. And inside of these comic stores, there is only so much they can sell, and so much of an audience they can reach out to.

Marvel and DC need to realize that fact and branch out majorly into the newsstands, etc. They need to realize that if they don't, they could very easily kill the industry.

Craig

[JABSEN]

I think indie creators need to skip the direct comics market entirely and put all their efforts into getting their OGN's into book stores. Comic book stores have proven consistantly that they can't help you. Some are great, but most just want to sell X-men and Batman. They don't care about you, so why should you care about them?

Yes, but it's extremely hard to print an OGN due to pricing.

CraigNot if it gets really buy companies that usually relese prose.I think Goddard had taled about something like this before

[CraigM]

well, sales have shown that movies don't help, but academia does

Charles Burns, Chris Ware, R Crumb, Harvey Pekar, Adrian Tomine, Art Spegielman, Seth, ect...
all these guys have very well selling comics outside of fanboy circles, have earned legitimate publishing awards, have had an entire New York Times Magazine devoted to them, and have been accepted with open arms by both the literary and fine art worlds.
but most importantly, they are currently working on, or have been approached to create, major books for major publishing houses. the kind with large advances and not getting stuffed inbetween Manga and Ult X-Men vol 3 in the book store

these guys are joining the great american novelists, and they make comics


comics are going to be fine, i'd say even better then it's ever been before
you just have to be the best of the best

I'm not going to lie to you and tell you I know who these people are because honestly I don't.

So my question is, how'd they do it?

Craig

[CraigM]

I think indie creators need to skip the direct comics market entirely and put all their efforts into getting their OGN's into book stores. Comic book stores have proven consistantly that they can't help you. Some are great, but most just want to sell X-men and Batman. They don't care about you, so why should you care about them?

Yes, but it's extremely hard to print an OGN due to pricing.

CraigNot if it gets really buy companies that usually relese prose.I think Goddard had taled about something like this before

Good point. That could be a huge factor in all of it. A company picking up that book and selling it to the bookstores. But at the same time, how hard would that be? Would that be like selling a normal book to a publishing company?

Craig

[Jacob Lyon Goddard]

Marvel and DC need to realize that fact and branch out majorly into the newsstands, etc. They need to realize that if they don't, they could very easily kill the industry.

Craig

you've got to stop looking at Marvel and DC as the biggest things in comics
they aren't, and they are getting much smaller
hell, marvel couldn't keep publishing comics if Bendis decided to up and leave

actual publishing houses are starting to put out comic books, and this is more important then any comic book company can do to there "universes"

[Jason_BANNED]

As we've seen the quality of comics go up over recent years, it seems like sales continue to decline.

Are you talking about the paper / printing quality or the quality of the stories /art? Quality of the stories / art is subjective. Just because you or I may find ourselves more entertained by certain books now as compared to a few years ago, doesn't mean that the majority of people do.


How are people's minds (and retailers) going to be changed and brought into this world of independent comics? Is it going to happen? If so, how?

I can't speak for a lot of retailers, but from the ones we have on the board certainly seem to be indy-friendly and do their best to push indy books in their stores and online.


Independent Creators, does it feel like a neverending battle? Does it feel like that no matter what you do, it's never going to be enough?

That's relative to what your goal is. I don't see creating comics as anything like a "battle" or an attempt "to be enough".

For me, creating comics is a way to do something I love (drawing) and share it with other people. It's also an excellent way to spend more quality time with my kids who share my love of drawing.

If no one ever buys a single comic I create, but I enjoyed creating it then I've accomplished my goal.

I have no aspirations to change the world through comics. Just to draw stories that I would enjoy reading. If someone else likes it, then that's icing on the cake.

Jason

[CraigM]

Marvel and DC need to realize that fact and branch out majorly into the newsstands, etc. They need to realize that if they don't, they could very easily kill the industry.

Craig

you've got to stop looking at Marvel and DC as the biggest things in comics
they aren't, and they are getting much smaller
hell, marvel couldn't keep publishing comics if Bendis decided to up and leave

actual publishing houses are starting to put out comic books, and this is more important then any comic book company can do to there "universes"

But, here is the dilemna with that. You can't but help look at Marvel/DC because they're the one that own the largest stake in the comic stores. If someone like me isn't producing OGN's and want to do monthlies, we're screwed because we can't get into the comic stores nor the bookstores.

Now, while I'm happy publishing companies are starting to open their eyes to comic books, they're going to be mainly in the form of OGN's and Trades, correct? I mean if you can show me a publishing company that will print monthlies, point me to them so I can pitch my book to them :P

Craig

[Jono]

well, sales have shown that movies don't help, but academia does
Charles Burns, Chris Ware, R Crumb, Harvey Pekar, Adrian Tomine, Art Spegielman, Seth, ect...
these guys are joining the great american novelists, and they make comics


I'm not going to lie to you and tell you I know who these people are because honestly I don't.

So my question is, how'd they do it?

Craig

They're the Comic Journal crowd. Artsy/high falutin' comics. If it's your dream to do a superhero book, you aren't going to be getting publishing deals like these guys. They did by being really talented and doing some sophisticated (for the most part) comics.

[Jacob Lyon Goddard]

well, sales have shown that movies don't help, but academia does

Charles Burns, Chris Ware, R Crumb, Harvey Pekar, Adrian Tomine, Art Spegielman, Seth, ect...
all these guys have very well selling comics outside of fanboy circles, have earned legitimate publishing awards, have had an entire New York Times Magazine devoted to them, and have been accepted with open arms by both the literary and fine art worlds.
but most importantly, they are currently working on, or have been approached to create, major books for major publishing houses. the kind with large advances and not getting stuffed inbetween Manga and Ult X-Men vol 3 in the book store

these guys are joining the great american novelists, and they make comics


comics are going to be fine, i'd say even better then it's ever been before
you just have to be the best of the best

I'm not going to lie to you and tell you I know who these people are because honestly I don't.

So my question is, how'd they do it?

Craig
they make the kinds of comics that the rest of the world reads, they cracked the intellectual circles
and they got know for making the very best comics in the world
they hang in galleries and are reviewed by literary critics in The Paris Review, not Fourthrail.com

In The Shadow of No Towers was one of the most anticipated books published last year
Marjane Satrapi just finished a world wide book tour to packed houses
R Crumb got a 7 figure advance to spend the next two years working on a project, and got the covers of ArtNEWS and Publisher's Weekly when it was announced
Chris Ware was one of the only artists to get a possitive review from the 2002 Whitney Biannual

these people make comic books

[CraigM]

Are you talking about the paper / printing quality or the quality of the stories /art? Quality of the stories / art is subjective. Just because you or I may find ourselves more entertained by certain books now as compared to a few years ago, doesn't mean that the majority of people do.

I'm talking about the quality of the stories. Now, yes that is subjective, and that's what I mentioned in that post as is it something that is subjective to us and not the mass market. Ex Machine, Y: The Last Man, Fables, She Hulk. These are all books that are critically acclaimed by us, but get the low end of sales. So, the question is posed, are these books not as good as we think they are, or do they just not appeal to the mass market?



I can't speak for a lot of retailers, but from the ones we have on the board certainly seem to be indy-friendly and do their best to push indy books in their stores and online.

That's very true. But, at the same time how many retailers actually post here? 10? I'm so grateful we have these ten, but you then hear the stories of stores that won't carry anything but Marvel/DC. Those could very well far outweigh the stores that push independents so much. I don't have hard facts in front of me of stores that carry independents, etc. and which don't, but I have a feeling that the percent is low for independents. Otherwise, books like Elk's Run wouldn't be in danger of being cancelled due to low numbers.



That's relative to what your goal is. I don't see creating comics as anything like a "battle" or an attempt "to be enough".

For me, creating comics is a way to do something I love (drawing) and share it with other people. It's also an excellent way to spend more quality time with my kids who share my love of drawing.

If no one ever buys a single comic I create, but I enjoyed creating it then I've accomplished my goal.

I have no aspirations to change the world through comics. Just to draw stories that I would enjoy reading. If someone else likes it, then that's icing on the cake.

My goal is to create comics I enjoy doing and that people read. The battle is not with the creating comics, but getting people to look at your book and buy it. It's the battle of getting retailers to stock your books. Not creating the books.

Thanks Jason!

Craig

[CraigM]

well, sales have shown that movies don't help, but academia does
Charles Burns, Chris Ware, R Crumb, Harvey Pekar, Adrian Tomine, Art Spegielman, Seth, ect...
these guys are joining the great american novelists, and they make comics


I'm not going to lie to you and tell you I know who these people are because honestly I don't.

So my question is, how'd they do it?

Craig

They're the Comic Journal crowd. Artsy/high falutin' comics. If it's your dream to do a superhero book, you aren't going to be getting publishing deals like these guys. They did by being really talented and doing some sophisticated (for the most part) comics.

Ah. I've just bought my first ever Comic Journal. My dream though, is to create a variety of comics. Romance, Espoinage, Superhero, Crime, etc. I want to do a little bit of everything, because I think that if you love to write, you want to see what you're capable of doing.

And I think a superhero comic could be artsy/high falutin' comics. It's just how you write it and how you make it to be.

Craig

[William Satterwhite]

I think the future of comics has to be a lot like the past where most "mainstream" comic sales take place outside of comic book stores. The best way to get retailers to focus more on indy books is to get Marvel and DC out of the way so that retailers have to focus more on indy comics sold exclusively through the direct market. I don't have any solid numbers or anything to support this but I strongly feel that the indy books that blew up and became phenominoms back in the 80's did so because Marvel and DC did a lot of business on the newstands and didn't depend on the direct market exclusively to sell their books. Retailers couldn't be slaves to the big boys so they were more open to books like TMNT, Cerebus and everything else.

So, something that Marvel has been criticized over the past few weeks could actually help strengthen the market? I think if comic stores had to sell independent comics to stay afloat, then I could easily see the resurgence that I think so many of us have felt is coming, but hasn't quite hit yet. This needs to start happening, where people can buy their mainstream books at a bookstore, and buy their independents at the comic stores because that's what they're here for.

It feels like to me it isn't Marvel or DC that is killing the industry. It's the comic stores. And inside of these comic stores, there is only so much they can sell, and so much of an audience they can reach out to.

Marvel and DC need to realize that fact and branch out majorly into the newsstands, etc. They need to realize that if they don't, they could very easily kill the industry.

Craig

Exactly. Its easy to say that independents should branch out of the comic book stores but I think that would be disastrous. Marvel and DC need to be the ones hitting the bookstores and 7-11s and grocery store spinner racks because they have the name brands that can survive in that market. That in turn will re-open up the direct market for the indy creators. Again, I have no actual facts or figures to support this but I remember when I was a kid (which really wasn't that long ago really), I could buy all of my X-Men and Spider-Man books at the Eckerds up the street and only went to a comic book store when I got older and into stuff like Sin City, Vertigo and indy books. I almost never bought a Marvel comic from a comic shop back then.

[CraigM]

well, sales have shown that movies don't help, but academia does

Charles Burns, Chris Ware, R Crumb, Harvey Pekar, Adrian Tomine, Art Spegielman, Seth, ect...
all these guys have very well selling comics outside of fanboy circles, have earned legitimate publishing awards, have had an entire New York Times Magazine devoted to them, and have been accepted with open arms by both the literary and fine art worlds.
but most importantly, they are currently working on, or have been approached to create, major books for major publishing houses. the kind with large advances and not getting stuffed inbetween Manga and Ult X-Men vol 3 in the book store

these guys are joining the great american novelists, and they make comics


comics are going to be fine, i'd say even better then it's ever been before
you just have to be the best of the best

I'm not going to lie to you and tell you I know who these people are because honestly I don't.

So my question is, how'd they do it?

Craig
they make the kinds of comics that the rest of the world reads, they cracked the intellectual circles
and they got know for making the very best comics in the world
they hang in galleries and are reviewed by literary critics in The Paris Review, not Fourthrail.com

In The Shadow of No Towers was one of the most anticipated books published last year
Marjane Satrapi just finished a world wide book tour to packed houses
R Crumb got a 7 figure advance to spend the next two years working on a project, and got the covers of ArtNEWS and Publisher's Weekly when it was announced
Chris Ware was one of the only artists to get a possitive review from the 2002 Whitney Biannual

these people make comic books

I'm going to check out their works. Thanks Goddard.

Craig

[CraigM]

I think the future of comics has to be a lot like the past where most "mainstream" comic sales take place outside of comic book stores. The best way to get retailers to focus more on indy books is to get Marvel and DC out of the way so that retailers have to focus more on indy comics sold exclusively through the direct market. I don't have any solid numbers or anything to support this but I strongly feel that the indy books that blew up and became phenominoms back in the 80's did so because Marvel and DC did a lot of business on the newstands and didn't depend on the direct market exclusively to sell their books. Retailers couldn't be slaves to the big boys so they were more open to books like TMNT, Cerebus and everything else.

So, something that Marvel has been criticized over the past few weeks could actually help strengthen the market? I think if comic stores had to sell independent comics to stay afloat, then I could easily see the resurgence that I think so many of us have felt is coming, but hasn't quite hit yet. This needs to start happening, where people can buy their mainstream books at a bookstore, and buy their independents at the comic stores because that's what they're here for.

It feels like to me it isn't Marvel or DC that is killing the industry. It's the comic stores. And inside of these comic stores, there is only so much they can sell, and so much of an audience they can reach out to.

Marvel and DC need to realize that fact and branch out majorly into the newsstands, etc. They need to realize that if they don't, they could very easily kill the industry.

Craig

Exactly. Its easy to say that independents should branch out of the comic book stores but I think that would be disastrous. Marvel and DC need to be the ones hitting the bookstores and 7-11s and grocery store spinner racks because they have the name brands that can survive in that market. That in turn will re-open up the direct market for the indy creators. Again, I have no actual facts or figures to support this but I remember when I was a kid (which really wasn't that long ago really), I could buy all of my X-Men and Spider-Man books at the Eckerds up the street and only went to a comic book store when I got older and into stuff like Sin City, Vertigo and indy books. I almost never bought a Marvel comic from a comic shop back then.

If Marvel's endeavor into the newsstands works, then I could very easily see them moving more into that.

At least I hope so.

Independents wouldn't be able to easily survive in that same route though due to the fact that they don't have that name brand. They don't have that wide appeal to the millions, because people haven't heard of them. However, if they start in the comic shops and grow, then they can move into that niche.

Craig

[Jacob Lyon Goddard]

Marvel and DC need to realize that fact and branch out majorly into the newsstands, etc. They need to realize that if they don't, they could very easily kill the industry.

Craig

you've got to stop looking at Marvel and DC as the biggest things in comics
they aren't, and they are getting much smaller
hell, marvel couldn't keep publishing comics if Bendis decided to up and leave

actual publishing houses are starting to put out comic books, and this is more important then any comic book company can do to there "universes"

But, here is the dilemna with that. You can't but help look at Marvel/DC because they're the one that own the largest stake in the comic stores. If someone like me isn't producing OGN's and want to do monthlies, we're screwed because we can't get into the comic stores nor the bookstores.

Now, while I'm happy publishing companies are starting to open their eyes to comic books, they're going to be mainly in the form of OGN's and Trades, correct? I mean if you can show me a publishing company that will print monthlies, point me to them so I can pitch my book to them :P

Craig

i don't go into comicbook stores, and either do book publishers
and monthlies won't be around in 15 years, unless you're Archie

[Jono]

Craig, the stuff Goddard is talking about is high art. You're talking about genre comics. Personally, I could give a shit if a comic got some praise in the Whitney review. I'm not ashamed to like what I like. I don't wish comics were more accepted by the mainstream art world. But if you want to succeed outside of the direct comic market, I guess you need to be a genre snob to do it. Or make OGN's, and you'll have to live with the indignity of sharing the bookshelf with manga and X-men visionaries Volume 3...

[CraigM]

Craig, the stuff Goddard is talking about is high art. You're talking about genre comics. Personally, I could give a shit if a comic got some praise in the Whitney review. I'm not ashamed to like what I like. I don't wish comics were more accepted by the mainstream art world. But if you want to succeed outside of the direct comic market, I guess you need to be a genre snob to do it. Or make OGN's, and you'll have to live with the indignity of sharing the bookshelf with manga and X-men visionaries Volume 3...

I have no problem trying out new things though either. Seeing what is so good about them. At the same time, you may not wish comics like Ex Machina were more accepted by the mainstream art world, but at the same time they need to get out there to more people. There's only so many comic shops and only so many people who walk into a comic shop. If Ex Machina was out there in the book stores, etc. then that would be a good thing and not a bad thing.

Craig

[RegularJoe]

i don't go into comicbook stores, and either do book publishers
and monthlies won't be around in 15 years, unless you're Archie

pretty sure this is the future of it. monthlies are going to go the way of the dodo. i love them, but even i'm starting to get pissed at the prices for these 22 pages of story. there needs to be a huge shift in the format. i think that the digest sized trades, in black and white, are where the industry may want to look. it works for manga. the manga section at B&N is HUGE compared to the GN section.

[Jacob Lyon Goddard]

Craig, the stuff Goddard is talking about is high art. You're talking about genre comics. Personally, I could give a shit if a comic got some praise in the Whitney review. I'm not ashamed to like what I like. I don't wish comics were more accepted by the mainstream art world. But if you want to succeed outside of the direct comic market, I guess you need to be a genre snob to do it. Or make OGN's, and you'll have to live with the indignity of sharing the bookshelf with manga and X-men visionaries Volume 3...

i agree with you



and i hate to break it to you Craig, but outside of comic fans, to the world at large, Ex Machina and Youngblood look like the exact same thing

there is no middleground between Jim Lee and Art Spegielman,
there are two types of comics- "the genre" and what Jono referred to "high art", that's what non-fanboys see
and one of those two types has been getting smaller and one is getting larger, and it's been doing that for the last 10 years

[CraigM]

Craig, the stuff Goddard is talking about is high art. You're talking about genre comics. Personally, I could give a shit if a comic got some praise in the Whitney review. I'm not ashamed to like what I like. I don't wish comics were more accepted by the mainstream art world. But if you want to succeed outside of the direct comic market, I guess you need to be a genre snob to do it. Or make OGN's, and you'll have to live with the indignity of sharing the bookshelf with manga and X-men visionaries Volume 3...

i agree with you



and i hate to break it to you Craig, but outside of comic fans, to the world at large, Ex Machina and Youngblood look like the exact same thing

there is no middleground between Jim Lee and Art Spegielman,
there are two types of comics- "the genre" and what Jono referred to "high art", that's what non-fanboys see
and one of those two types has been getting smaller and one is getting larger, and it's been doing that for the last 10 years

And if genre comics go there will only be "high art"?

Craig

[William Satterwhite]

these guys are joining the great american novelists, and they make comics


comics are going to be fine, i'd say even better then it's ever been before
you just have to be the best of the best

That's not a healthy market and thats definitely not better than ever before. You're exactly right about how guys like Spiegelman and Crumb are on the level they have reached but you're missing the fact that it doesn't leave room for anybody else. Those book publishers who are home to the "great American novelists" also have room for writers like Stephen King, Tom Clancy and even Pam Anderson (and who do you think is getting the most publicity?), but when it comes to comics you have to be the absolute best of the best. Thats not a good market for new creators to aspire to compete in.

[Jacob Lyon Goddard]

Craig, the stuff Goddard is talking about is high art. You're talking about genre comics. Personally, I could give a shit if a comic got some praise in the Whitney review. I'm not ashamed to like what I like. I don't wish comics were more accepted by the mainstream art world. But if you want to succeed outside of the direct comic market, I guess you need to be a genre snob to do it. Or make OGN's, and you'll have to live with the indignity of sharing the bookshelf with manga and X-men visionaries Volume 3...

i agree with you



and i hate to break it to you Craig, but outside of comic fans, to the world at large, Ex Machina and Youngblood look like the exact same thing

there is no middleground between Jim Lee and Art Spegielman,
there are two types of comics- "the genre" and what Jono referred to "high art", that's what non-fanboys see
and one of those two types has been getting smaller and one is getting larger, and it's been doing that for the last 10 years

And if genre comics go there will only be "high art"?

Craig

i'm sure there will still be genre comics, they'll change format with the rest

and they won't be the things that change the world's mind about what comics are, or can do

[CraigM]

Craig, the stuff Goddard is talking about is high art. You're talking about genre comics. Personally, I could give a shit if a comic got some praise in the Whitney review. I'm not ashamed to like what I like. I don't wish comics were more accepted by the mainstream art world. But if you want to succeed outside of the direct comic market, I guess you need to be a genre snob to do it. Or make OGN's, and you'll have to live with the indignity of sharing the bookshelf with manga and X-men visionaries Volume 3...

i agree with you



and i hate to break it to you Craig, but outside of comic fans, to the world at large, Ex Machina and Youngblood look like the exact same thing

there is no middleground between Jim Lee and Art Spegielman,
there are two types of comics- "the genre" and what Jono referred to "high art", that's what non-fanboys see
and one of those two types has been getting smaller and one is getting larger, and it's been doing that for the last 10 years

And if genre comics go there will only be "high art"?

Craig

i'm sure there will still be genre comics, they'll change format with the rest

and they won't be the things that change the world's mind about what comics are, or can do

So you think that genre comics are stuck where they're at and there's no changing the perception they have or the industry?

Craig

[CraigM]

these guys are joining the great american novelists, and they make comics


comics are going to be fine, i'd say even better then it's ever been before
you just have to be the best of the best

That's not a healthy market and thats definitely not better than ever before. You're exactly right about how guys like Spiegelman and Crumb are on the level they have reached but you're missing the fact that it doesn't leave room for anybody else. Those book publishers who are home to the "great American novelists" also have room for writers like Stephen King, Tom Clancy and even Pam Anderson (and who do you think is getting the most publicity?), but when it comes to comics you have to be the absolute best of the best. Thats not a good market for new creators to aspire to compete in.

The "genre" market is a very hard market to break into. I think the quality has gone up so high that you have to come in with that same level of quality.

Craig

[Jacob Lyon Goddard]

Craig, the stuff Goddard is talking about is high art. You're talking about genre comics. Personally, I could give a shit if a comic got some praise in the Whitney review. I'm not ashamed to like what I like. I don't wish comics were more accepted by the mainstream art world. But if you want to succeed outside of the direct comic market, I guess you need to be a genre snob to do it. Or make OGN's, and you'll have to live with the indignity of sharing the bookshelf with manga and X-men visionaries Volume 3...

i agree with you



and i hate to break it to you Craig, but outside of comic fans, to the world at large, Ex Machina and Youngblood look like the exact same thing

there is no middleground between Jim Lee and Art Spegielman,
there are two types of comics- "the genre" and what Jono referred to "high art", that's what non-fanboys see
and one of those two types has been getting smaller and one is getting larger, and it's been doing that for the last 10 years

And if genre comics go there will only be "high art"?

Craig

i'm sure there will still be genre comics, they'll change format with the rest

and they won't be the things that change the world's mind about what comics are, or can do

no, it'll change, Stephan King sells a lot of books
but it'll be a while
the world needs to be convinced that comics can be fine literature first, the the publishers will start taking chances on books with a genre spin to them

i'm saying that comic books,will start selling like regular books before too long, and they are using the best of the best to get their foot in the door

[mike black]

So you think that genre comics are stuck where they're at and there's no changing the perception they have or the industry?

Craig

I'm going to jump into the conversation with the following:

Comic Stores do nothing to help the industry.

The future of comics is in the internet, neewspapers, book stores (though I'm not quite sure about that..) and in magazines.

The future of genre comics is something along the lines of Grant Morrison and the Wildstorm Universe. Think about the Wildstorm Universe as a concept, and you'll see where I'm going with that.

[Jono]

So you think that genre comics are stuck where they're at and there's no changing the perception they have or the industry?

Craig

I'm going to jump into the conversation with the following:

Comic Stores do nothing to help the industry.

The future of comics is in the internet, neewspapers, book stores (though I'm not quite sure about that..) and in magazines.

The future of genre comics is something along the lines of Grant Morrison and the Wildstorm Universe. Think about the Wildstorm Universe as a concept, and you'll see where I'm going with that.

I totally agree. Those few stores that love and promote indie comics are the exception that proves the rule. If LCS' can't or won't help you, fuck em, look elsewhere...

[CraigM]

So you think that genre comics are stuck where they're at and there's no changing the perception they have or the industry?

Craig

I'm going to jump into the conversation with the following:

Comic Stores do nothing to help the industry.

The future of comics is in the internet, neewspapers, book stores (though I'm not quite sure about that..) and in magazines.

The future of genre comics is something along the lines of Grant Morrison and the Wildstorm Universe. Think about the Wildstorm Universe as a concept, and you'll see where I'm going with that.

I totally agree. Those few stores that love and promote indie comics are the exception that proves the rule. If LCS' can't or won't help you, fuck em, look elsewhere...

And where exactly would you like us to look?

Craig

[Jason_BANNED]

I'm talking about the quality of the stories. Now, yes that is subjective, and that's what I mentioned in that post as is it something that is subjective to us and not the mass market. Ex Machine, Y: The Last Man, Fables, She Hulk. These are all books that are critically acclaimed by us, but get the low end of sales. So, the question is posed, are these books not as good as we think they are, or do they just not appeal to the mass market?

If you ask me, I'd say we're right and the mass market is wrong. :)

But maybe it's not that they're not good; maybe they're just not being pushed enough by retailers to have caught the attention of all the potential readers out there.



That's very true. But, at the same time how many retailers actually post here? 10? I'm so grateful we have these ten, but you then hear the stories of stores that won't carry anything but Marvel/DC.

I can't comment on this because I have very little exposure to retailers. Outside of Jeffery and the rest of the gang at my LCS, the only retailers I know are the few on the board.


My goal is to create comics I enjoy doing and that people read. The battle is not with the creating comics, but getting people to look at your book and buy it. It's the battle of getting retailers to stock your books. Not creating the books.

Understood, but that's relative to you. Maybe more creators put emphasis on the actual creation. Maybe more creators put the emphasis on gaining a large readership.

I think it would be difficult to say if it were one way or the other (or evenly tied right down the middle).

If you don't mind, let me ask you this: If you created Tyr and absolutely no one bought it, but you were happy with the book, would that be considered losing out to you?

Honestly, whether it sells 100 or 100,000, you've still done more than 95% of fans out there. You created something you believed in and were pleased with the outcome. You've done something I know that I aspire to do.

To me, you've already won. Getting it out to the masses is secondary to creating something you are proud of.

But that's just my opinion, and I understand we all may see things a bit differently.

Jason

[mike black]

So you think that genre comics are stuck where they're at and there's no changing the perception they have or the industry?

Craig

I'm going to jump into the conversation with the following:

Comic Stores do nothing to help the industry.

The future of comics is in the internet, neewspapers, book stores (though I'm not quite sure about that..) and in magazines.

The future of genre comics is something along the lines of Grant Morrison and the Wildstorm Universe. Think about the Wildstorm Universe as a concept, and you'll see where I'm going with that.

I totally agree. Those few stores that love and promote indie comics are the exception that proves the rule. If LCS' can't or won't help you, fuck em, look elsewhere...

And where exactly would you like us to look?

Craig

hmmm...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=online+comic+retailers&btnG=Google+ Search

Try there.

[Jono]

So you think that genre comics are stuck where they're at and there's no changing the perception they have or the industry?

Craig

I'm going to jump into the conversation with the following:

Comic Stores do nothing to help the industry.

The future of comics is in the internet, neewspapers, book stores (though I'm not quite sure about that..) and in magazines.

The future of genre comics is something along the lines of Grant Morrison and the Wildstorm Universe. Think about the Wildstorm Universe as a concept, and you'll see where I'm going with that.

I totally agree. Those few stores that love and promote indie comics are the exception that proves the rule. If LCS' can't or won't help you, fuck em, look elsewhere...

And where exactly would you like us to look?

Craig

Internet, bookstores....uh, did I say bookstores already? I didn't say it was easy finding a new way, but breaking into the direct market is almost impossible. Look at Josh's book, Elks Run. Everyone who reads it loves it. Warren Ellis gave him a blurb for christsakes, and he's got to fucking beg people so he can MAYBE publish HALF the goddamn mini. Does that sound like plan for success? Even assuming your book is incredible, odds are you'll wind up with nothing but your dick in your hand at the end of the day. I'd rather spend my energy looking for a New Way than banging my head against the door of the direct market.

[Jono]

I'd like to give a pat on the back to everyone who posted in this thread. Way to have a mature conversation about comics on the Bendis board. That fulfills our yearly quota.... :razz:

[Nick_Borelli]

http://www.samruby.com/Spider-Man2099/Large/2099Spiderman35.JPG

[CraigM]

Anybody else?

Craig

[Ben Rosen]

Anybody else?

Craig

I definitely agree with everyone who's saying the wares, the seths, the tomines--those are the people who are going to save the industry. The big publishing houses need to make these kinds of books by these kinds of people. It may take a while, but these people are getting opportunities to get advances or whatever and go and make their graphic novels. Once these are accepted by people other than fanboys then comics can start getting somewhere. And I think it was Goddard who said non-fanboys can't tell Ex Machina from Youngblood or whatever. So so true. I know my friends at least, none of whom read comics, lump everything in the same pile. Giving them my comic at least got them thinking comics weren't all about super-heros. But still, they only read it because they're my friends, and they'll probably never read another comic until I make something new, which sucks. I think that if people would go out, and read the right issue of Optic Nerve, or happen to read the right story in McSweeneys, there would be a lot more readers once they learn not everyone in comics is wearing tights.

[BriRedfern]

well, sales have shown that movies don't help, but academia does

Charles Burns, Chris Ware, R Crumb, Harvey Pekar, Adrian Tomine, Art Spegielman, Seth, ect...
all these guys have very well selling comics outside of fanboy circles, have earned legitimate publishing awards, have had an entire New York Times Magazine devoted to them, and have been accepted with open arms by both the literary and fine art worlds.
but most importantly, they are currently working on, or have been approached to create, major books for major publishing houses. the kind with large advances and not getting stuffed inbetween Manga and Ult X-Men vol 3 in the book store

these guys are joining the great american novelists, and they make comics


comics are going to be fine, i'd say even better then it's ever been before
you just have to be the best of the best

Huh?

[Ben Rosen]

well, sales have shown that movies don't help, but academia does

Charles Burns, Chris Ware, R Crumb, Harvey Pekar, Adrian Tomine, Art Spegielman, Seth, ect...
all these guys have very well selling comics outside of fanboy circles, have earned legitimate publishing awards, have had an entire New York Times Magazine devoted to them, and have been accepted with open arms by both the literary and fine art worlds.
but most importantly, they are currently working on, or have been approached to create, major books for major publishing houses. the kind with large advances and not getting stuffed inbetween Manga and Ult X-Men vol 3 in the book store

these guys are joining the great american novelists, and they make comics


comics are going to be fine, i'd say even better then it's ever been before
you just have to be the best of the best

Huh?

it wasn't an entire magazine, but a huge, and really great article about comics in an issue last summer.

[RebootedCorpse]

I think people are underestimating the impact that the shift toward trades will have on comics. With most major book stores now carrying trades and publishers consistantly cateering to that segment, monthly sales are bound to flag.
If trades are the future, the cost and time involved in producing them will likely mean that publishers will only go with proven sellers and they will take fewer chances on Indy products with no track rtecord.

[Jacob Lyon Goddard]

and i hate to break it to you Craig, but outside of comic fans, to the world at large, Ex Machina and Youngblood look like the exact same thing

there is no middleground between Jim Lee and Art Spegielman,
there are two types of comics- "the genre" and what Jono referred to "high art", that's what non-fanboys see
and one of those two types has been getting smaller and one is getting larger, and it's been doing that for the last 10 years

i'd like to take my foot out of my mouth long enough to say that i am wrong in that statement
Neil Gaiman's Sandman occupies that space, and rather well

[mike black]

and i hate to break it to you Craig, but outside of comic fans, to the world at large, Ex Machina and Youngblood look like the exact same thing

there is no middleground between Jim Lee and Art Spegielman,
there are two types of comics- "the genre" and what Jono referred to "high art", that's what non-fanboys see
and one of those two types has been getting smaller and one is getting larger, and it's been doing that for the last 10 years

i'd like to take my foot out of my mouth long enough to say that i am wrong in that statement
Neil Gaiman's Sandman occupies that space, and rather well

I think you just got Morphe-OWNED.

[mike black]

Speaking of which, Goddard, I just found the most gorgeous Sandman desktop wallpaper ever:

http://www.machall.com/desktops/desktop_morpheus_1280.jpg

[arthurloewenkamp]

Speaking of which, Goddard, I just found the most gorgeous Sandman desktop wallpaper ever:

http://www.machall.com/desktops/desktop_morpheus_1280.jpg

thank you for finding this

[mike black]

Speaking of which, Goddard, I just found the most gorgeous Sandman desktop wallpaper ever:

http://www.machall.com/desktops/desktop_morpheus_1280.jpg

thank you for finding this

Gorgeous, isn't it? I bumpbed the cover of DD 75 off of my desktop. I think it shall be there for a long time.

[Jacob Lyon Goddard]

Speaking of which, Goddard, I just found the most gorgeous Sandman desktop wallpaper ever:

http://www.machall.com/desktops/desktop_morpheus_1280.jpg

this might not make any sense to you
but i hate pin-ups, comics are about sequencial images, not single ones

[J. R. Scherer]

I'm with Goddard and Jono.
I think that in a decade's time the comics industry that we're all used to will be vastly different.

If DC and Marvel and any of the indy publishers are going to start making it in the mainstream markets it's going to be because they're printing something other than superhero and adventure comics.

It'd be real interesting to see how thing might have turned out if we could go back in time and keep Marvel and DC from creating the comics code authority. If EC could have kept publishing the comic industry would have been VERY different today.

[mike black]

Speaking of which, Goddard, I just found the most gorgeous Sandman desktop wallpaper ever:

http://www.machall.com/desktops/desktop_morpheus_1280.jpg

this might not make any sense to you
but i hate pin-ups, comics are about sequencial images, not single ones

I was referring to it being a beautiful painting of a character you've professed to like. Imagine my surprise when I found out that you don't like paintings.

[Wastrel]

Speaking of which, Goddard, I just found the most gorgeous Sandman desktop wallpaper ever:

http://www.machall.com/desktops/desktop_morpheus_1280.jpg

this might not make any sense to you
but i hate pin-ups, comics are about sequencial images, not single onesyou are right, that doesnt make sense considering the amount of time you claim to spend staring at single images in museums.

[The Roman Candle]

well, sales have shown that movies don't help, but academia does

Charles Burns, Chris Ware, R Crumb, Harvey Pekar, Adrian Tomine, Art Spegielman, Seth, ect...
all these guys have very well selling comics outside of fanboy circles, have earned legitimate publishing awards, have had an entire New York Times Magazine devoted to them, and have been accepted with open arms by both the literary and fine art worlds.
but most importantly, they are currently working on, or have been approached to create, major books for major publishing houses. the kind with large advances and not getting stuffed inbetween Manga and Ult X-Men vol 3 in the book store

these guys are joining the great american novelists, and they make comics


comics are going to be fine, i'd say even better then it's ever been before
you just have to be the best of the best

I agree... with Goddard? That can't be right. :?


I feel dirty.

[BENDIS!]

the future of comics is and always will be on the shoulders of the comic creators who dedicate thier lives to making comics they have to make IN ANY GENRE!!!

no one genre or statement will save the business. only good business decisions made to support good product will keep the flow.

as long as that exists there will always be someone somehwhere who will buy them.

goddard- you sir are king of the wild, but passionate generalizations. i never agree with anything you say, but i love your passion.

[mike black]

the future of comics is and always will be on the shoulders of the comic creators who dedicate thier lives to making comics they have to make IN ANY GENRE!!!

no one genre or statement will save the business. only good business decisions made to support good product will keep the flow.

as long as that exists there will always be someone somehwhere who will buy them.

goddard- you sir are king of the wild, but passionate generalizations. i never agree with anything you say, but i love your passion.

Oh sure, take all the credit.

[J. R. Scherer]

the future of comics is and always will be on the shoulders of the comic creators who dedicate thier lives to making comics they have to make IN ANY GENRE!!!

no one genre or statement will save the business. only good business decisions made to support good product will keep the flow.

as long as that exists there will always be someone somehwhere who will buy them.

goddard- you sir are king of the wild, but passionate generalizations. i never agree with anything you say, but i love your passion.


I'm pretty sure it's these good business decisions that will change things drastically from what they are now.

[The Roman Candle]

the future of comics is and always will be on the shoulders of the comic creators who dedicate thier lives to making comics they have to make IN ANY GENRE!!!

no one genre or statement will save the business. only good business decisions made to support good product will keep the flow.

as long as that exists there will always be someone somehwhere who will buy them.

goddard- you sir are king of the wild, but passionate generalizations. i never agree with anything you say, but i love your passion.

I also agree with this.

[Jacob Lyon Goddard]

the future of comics is and always will be on the shoulders of the comic creators who dedicate thier lives to making comics they have to make IN ANY GENRE!!!

no one genre or statement will save the business. only good business decisions made to support good product will keep the flow.

as long as that exists there will always be someone somehwhere who will buy them.

goddard- you sir are king of the wild, but passionate generalizations. i never agree with anything you say, but i love your passion.

as much as i hate to admit it, i'm sure you know a hell of a lot more about this then i do

what's wrong with my thinking?

[BENDIS!]

the future of comics is and always will be on the shoulders of the comic creators who dedicate thier lives to making comics they have to make IN ANY GENRE!!!

no one genre or statement will save the business. only good business decisions made to support good product will keep the flow.

as long as that exists there will always be someone somehwhere who will buy them.

goddard- you sir are king of the wild, but passionate generalizations. i never agree with anything you say, but i love your passion.

as much as i hate to admit it, i'm sure you know a hell of a lot more about this then i do

what's wrong with my thinking?

nothing wrong with your thinking. its just big generalizations.

you get very frustrated when people don't like the comics you like. it doesn't make people want to read them more, it makes them want to read them less.

plus you are quick to say what a comic is or isn't, i personally, don't believe in that type of thinking.

also, and i am not shitting on any of the authors you've mentioned, because i am a huge fan of them one and all, but if any of those guy were going to 'save the industry' which clearly isn;t any of thier goals, wouldn't they have done it, like, ten years ago?

you know most people don;t know comics exsists past manga, never heard of eric clapton, will never see the godfather, will never see raiders, will never read a stan lee comic? its true.

lend your comics to your friends!!

[Jacob Lyon Goddard]

the future of comics is and always will be on the shoulders of the comic creators who dedicate thier lives to making comics they have to make IN ANY GENRE!!!

no one genre or statement will save the business. only good business decisions made to support good product will keep the flow.

as long as that exists there will always be someone somehwhere who will buy them.

goddard- you sir are king of the wild, but passionate generalizations. i never agree with anything you say, but i love your passion.

as much as i hate to admit it, i'm sure you know a hell of a lot more about this then i do

what's wrong with my thinking?

nothing wrong with your thinking. its just big generalizations.

you get very frustrated when people don't like the comics you like. it doesn't make people want to read them more, it makes them want to read them less.

plus you are quick to say what a comic is or isn't, i personally, don't believe in that type of thinking.

also, and i am not shitting on any of the authors you've mentioned, because i am a huge fan of them one and all, but if any of those guy were going to 'save the industry' which clearly isn;t any of thier goals, wouldn't they have done it, like, ten years ago?

you know most people don;t know comics exsists past manga, never heard of eric clapton, will never see the godfather, will never see raiders, will never read a stan lee comic? its true.

lend your comics to your friends!!

i spent most of high school with copies of AKA Goldfish and Stray Bullets in my backpack :P

[BENDIS!]

the future of comics is and always will be on the shoulders of the comic creators who dedicate thier lives to making comics they have to make IN ANY GENRE!!!

no one genre or statement will save the business. only good business decisions made to support good product will keep the flow.

as long as that exists there will always be someone somehwhere who will buy them.

goddard- you sir are king of the wild, but passionate generalizations. i never agree with anything you say, but i love your passion.

as much as i hate to admit it, i'm sure you know a hell of a lot more about this then i do

what's wrong with my thinking?

nothing wrong with your thinking. its just big generalizations.

you get very frustrated when people don't like the comics you like. it doesn't make people want to read them more, it makes them want to read them less.

plus you are quick to say what a comic is or isn't, i personally, don't believe in that type of thinking.

also, and i am not shitting on any of the authors you've mentioned, because i am a huge fan of them one and all, but if any of those guy were going to 'save the industry' which clearly isn;t any of thier goals, wouldn't they have done it, like, ten years ago?

you know most people don;t know comics exsists past manga, never heard of eric clapton, will never see the godfather, will never see raiders, will never read a stan lee comic? its true.

lend your comics to your friends!!

i spent most of high school with copies of AKA Goldfish and Stray Bullets in my backpack :P

that's why you weren't banned for that cow post yesterday :)

i love you brother, keep preaching. and shit, i say its time for you to start writing your own comic!!!

[mike black]

Is anyone else having a panic attack at the moment?

[Jacob Lyon Goddard]

the future of comics is and always will be on the shoulders of the comic creators who dedicate thier lives to making comics they have to make IN ANY GENRE!!!

no one genre or statement will save the business. only good business decisions made to support good product will keep the flow.

as long as that exists there will always be someone somehwhere who will buy them.

goddard- you sir are king of the wild, but passionate generalizations. i never agree with anything you say, but i love your passion.

as much as i hate to admit it, i'm sure you know a hell of a lot more about this then i do

what's wrong with my thinking?

nothing wrong with your thinking. its just big generalizations.

you get very frustrated when people don't like the comics you like. it doesn't make people want to read them more, it makes them want to read them less.

plus you are quick to say what a comic is or isn't, i personally, don't believe in that type of thinking.

also, and i am not shitting on any of the authors you've mentioned, because i am a huge fan of them one and all, but if any of those guy were going to 'save the industry' which clearly isn;t any of thier goals, wouldn't they have done it, like, ten years ago?

you know most people don;t know comics exsists past manga, never heard of eric clapton, will never see the godfather, will never see raiders, will never read a stan lee comic? its true.

lend your comics to your friends!!

i spent most of high school with copies of AKA Goldfish and Stray Bullets in my backpack :P

that's why you weren't banned for that cow post yesterday :)

i love you brother, keep preaching. and shit, i say its time for you to start writing your own comic!!!

got my first script accepted two weeks ago

[CraigM]

Is anyone else having a panic attack at the moment?

Why?

Craig

[mike black]

Is anyone else having a panic attack at the moment?

Why?

Craig

Feeling a bit daunted. Don't mind me.

[CraigM]

Is anyone else having a panic attack at the moment?

Why?

Craig

Feeling a bit daunted. Don't mind me.

Daunted by what?

Craig

[mike black]

Is anyone else having a panic attack at the moment?

Why?

Craig

Feeling a bit daunted. Don't mind me.

Daunted by what?

Craig

Forget it Craig.

[CraigM]

Is anyone else having a panic attack at the moment?

Why?

Craig

Feeling a bit daunted. Don't mind me.

Daunted by what?

Craig

Forget it Craig.

No, I'm intrigued.

Craig

[The Human Target]

Is anyone else having a panic attack at the moment?

Why?

Craig

Feeling a bit daunted. Don't mind me.

Daunted by what?

Craig

He realizes he is never going to get between the love of Goddard and Bendis.

[mike black]

Is anyone else having a panic attack at the moment?

Why?

Craig

Feeling a bit daunted. Don't mind me.

Daunted by what?

Craig

He realizes he is never going to get between the love of Goddard and Bendis.

Not quite. I just realized my greatest fear in life is something I can't avoid.

[The Human Target]

Is anyone else having a panic attack at the moment?

Why?

Craig

Feeling a bit daunted. Don't mind me.

Daunted by what?

Craig

He realizes he is never going to get between the love of Goddard and Bendis.

Not quite. I just realized my greatest fear in life is something I can't avoid.

Oh stop being mysterious and spit it out.

[mike black]

Is anyone else having a panic attack at the moment?

Why?

Craig

Feeling a bit daunted. Don't mind me.

Daunted by what?

Craig

He realizes he is never going to get between the love of Goddard and Bendis.

Not quite. I just realized my greatest fear in life is something I can't avoid.

Oh stop being mysterious and spit it out.

Eat me.

[The Human Target]

Oh stop being mysterious and spit it out.

Eat me.

Don't be salty. Whats the big epiphany?

[mike black]

Oh stop being mysterious and spit it out.

Eat me.

Don't be salty. Whats the big epiphany?

I suppose you could figure it out by cruising a multitude of different threads on the first page right now.

Personally, I'm just in a shitty mood over it, so I'm being a prick.

[The Human Target]

Oh stop being mysterious and spit it out.

Eat me.

Don't be salty. Whats the big epiphany?

I suppose you could figure it out by cruising a multitude of different threads on the first page right now.

I'm too sleepy for this Seven Soldiers stuff.

Are you turning into a ........... Republican?

[mike black]

Oh stop being mysterious and spit it out.

Eat me.

Don't be salty. Whats the big epiphany?

I suppose you could figure it out by cruising a multitude of different threads on the first page right now.

I'm too sleepy for this Seven Soldiers stuff.

Are you turning into a ........... Republican?

Dude, I voted for Bush.

I'm a registered Libertarian.

[The Human Target]

Oh stop being mysterious and spit it out.

Eat me.

Don't be salty. Whats the big epiphany?

I suppose you could figure it out by cruising a multitude of different threads on the first page right now.

I'm too sleepy for this Seven Soldiers stuff.

Are you turning into a ........... Republican?

Dude, I voted for Bush.

I'm a registered Libertarian.

Damn. See I suck at this game.

[PoWerSurge]

Here's my thoughts, just as a business person and as a comic fan

1) Comics need to get out of the LCS. You can buy every other print medium at any grocery and convenience store in the US. Comics have to be available to everyone

2) The term Graphic Novel needs to quit having the same meaning as "Anthology" for mainstream comics. Monthly comics need to be treated be the back bone of continuity, but then you can still sell a Spider-man or Batman graphic novel.

The Big two need to reverse their thinking on mini-series. What if you take a big story (Identity Crisis for example), (a) sell it as a Hard Back first (b) break it up into monthly's for those that can't afford the hard back (c) produce it as soft cover trade? If you take away the monthly piece of that question, its EXACTLY the same concept that Novels use. Some people buy the hard covers, some people buy the soft, the same would be true for comics

3) The third piece is what I call the Goddard Principal. This is mainstream writers and artists going back to their roots to promote the independent market. Millar did this with some of his Millarworld stuff. I'd like to see MORE mainstream writers doing non-mainstream stuff. POWERS is kind of like this, but I'd like the Bendis grab Finch and do purely non-superhero comic.

I think the big two are on their way to helping this concept out, and always have been. Marvel probably took the greatest move towards this with the Icon label. I don't think DC will ever do it though, because their a small cog in a big machine without the freedom Marvel has. But, without the backing DC has, Marvel has a lot bigger risk to take everytime it tries to move this forward.

[Jono]

Here's my thoughts, just as a business person and as a comic fan

1) Comics need to get out of the LCS. You can buy every other print medium at any grocery and convenience store in the US. Comics have to be available to everyone

2) The term Graphic Novel needs to quit having the same meaning as "Anthology" for mainstream comics. Monthly comics need to be treated be the back bone of continuity, but then you can still sell a Spider-man or Batman graphic novel.

The Big two need to reverse their thinking on mini-series. What if you take a big story (Identity Crisis for example), (a) sell it as a Hard Back first (b) break it up into monthly's for those that can't afford the hard back (c) produce it as soft cover trade? If you take away the monthly piece of that question, its EXACTLY the same concept that Novels use. Some people buy the hard covers, some people buy the soft, the same would be true for comics

3) The third piece is what I call the Goddard Principal. This is mainstream writers and artists going back to their roots to promote the independent market. Millar did this with some of his Millarworld stuff. I'd like to see MORE mainstream writers doing non-mainstream stuff. POWERS is kind of like this, but I'd like the Bendis grab Finch and do purely non-superhero comic.

I think the big two are on their way to helping this concept out, and always have been. Marvel probably took the greatest move towards this with the Icon label. I don't think DC will ever do it though, because their a small cog in a big machine without the freedom Marvel has. But, without the backing DC has, Marvel has a lot bigger risk to take everytime it tries to move this forward.

You make some very good points. I posted a suggestion of sorts in the Bendis Q&A, basically asking him to start an Icon non-superhero anthology as an outlet for his Fortune and Glory/noir stuff he writes and draws. He can have his pals do stuff they like in small doses, like Brubaker and Lark doing 8 pages a month of Scene of the Crime or whatever. he can also use it as an outlet for deserving up and comers. imaging how many people would be exposed to Elks Run it were a flip book with a Bendis written and drawn crime story?
All of this is easy for me to say, I don't have to spend all the fucking time getting it together or begging Marvel to do it. But it seems like a good idea in my head.

[Jacob Lyon Goddard]

Here's my thoughts, just as a business person and as a comic fan

1) Comics need to get out of the LCS. You can buy every other print medium at any grocery and convenience store in the US. Comics have to be available to everyone

2) The term Graphic Novel needs to quit having the same meaning as "Anthology" for mainstream comics. Monthly comics need to be treated be the back bone of continuity, but then you can still sell a Spider-man or Batman graphic novel.

The Big two need to reverse their thinking on mini-series. What if you take a big story (Identity Crisis for example), (a) sell it as a Hard Back first (b) break it up into monthly's for those that can't afford the hard back (c) produce it as soft cover trade? If you take away the monthly piece of that question, its EXACTLY the same concept that Novels use. Some people buy the hard covers, some people buy the soft, the same would be true for comics

3) The third piece is what I call the Goddard Principal. This is mainstream writers and artists going back to their roots to promote the independent market. Millar did this with some of his Millarworld stuff. I'd like to see MORE mainstream writers doing non-mainstream stuff. POWERS is kind of like this, but I'd like the Bendis grab Finch and do purely non-superhero comic.

I think the big two are on their way to helping this concept out, and always have been. Marvel probably took the greatest move towards this with the Icon label. I don't think DC will ever do it though, because their a small cog in a big machine without the freedom Marvel has. But, without the backing DC has, Marvel has a lot bigger risk to take everytime it tries to move this forward.

You make some very good points. I posted a suggestion of sorts in the Bendis Q&A, basically asking him to start an Icon non-superhero anthology as an outlet for his Fortune and Glory/noir stuff he writes and draws. He can have his pals do stuff they like in small doses, like Brubaker and Lark doing 8 pages a month of Scene of the Crime or whatever. he can also use it as an outlet for deserving up and comers. imaging how many people would be exposed to Elks Run it were a flip book with a Bendis written and drawn crime story?
All of this is easy for me to say, I don't have to spend all the fucking time getting it together or begging Marvel to do it. But it seems like a good idea in my head.

no, i don't think that'll ever happen, and i'm not sure that it should

Marvel does one thing
it reinterprets and updates the "universe", characters, and guildlines created by Stan Lee and friends in the early to mid 60s
on a conceptual level, i think that's fine. doesn't really interest me too much, but a lot of stuff doesn't

i just think it's royally messed up that what should be (and really is) a small publishing group that caters to a small nostalgia based niche controls the perception of what comics are to the outside media

but they are a company, and there main goal is to make money, and to make sure that they can continue to make money, so i really can't fault them

[Jono]

Whay can't Marvel expand it's horizons? I can think of two ways something like this can happen: someone tricks them into thinking they can make shitloads of money off it, or the more likely scenario, they want to keep their cash cows happy. Something tells me if Bendis wants something like this to happen, it will get done.
But, I'm kind of drafting Bendis into liking this idea, so who knows. Maybe he thinks it's dumb and Marvel is for superhero comics only.

[Jason_BANNED]

Whay can't Marvel expand it's horizons?

Because Goddard said they can't.

Jason

[PoWerSurge]

Here's my thoughts, just as a business person and as a comic fan

1) Comics need to get out of the LCS. You can buy every other print medium at any grocery and convenience store in the US. Comics have to be available to everyone

2) The term Graphic Novel needs to quit having the same meaning as "Anthology" for mainstream comics. Monthly comics need to be treated be the back bone of continuity, but then you can still sell a Spider-man or Batman graphic novel.

The Big two need to reverse their thinking on mini-series. What if you take a big story (Identity Crisis for example), (a) sell it as a Hard Back first (b) break it up into monthly's for those that can't afford the hard back (c) produce it as soft cover trade? If you take away the monthly piece of that question, its EXACTLY the same concept that Novels use. Some people buy the hard covers, some people buy the soft, the same would be true for comics

3) The third piece is what I call the Goddard Principal. This is mainstream writers and artists going back to their roots to promote the independent market. Millar did this with some of his Millarworld stuff. I'd like to see MORE mainstream writers doing non-mainstream stuff. POWERS is kind of like this, but I'd like the Bendis grab Finch and do purely non-superhero comic.

I think the big two are on their way to helping this concept out, and always have been. Marvel probably took the greatest move towards this with the Icon label. I don't think DC will ever do it though, because their a small cog in a big machine without the freedom Marvel has. But, without the backing DC has, Marvel has a lot bigger risk to take everytime it tries to move this forward.

You make some very good points. I posted a suggestion of sorts in the Bendis Q&A, basically asking him to start an Icon non-superhero anthology as an outlet for his Fortune and Glory/noir stuff he writes and draws. He can have his pals do stuff they like in small doses, like Brubaker and Lark doing 8 pages a month of Scene of the Crime or whatever. he can also use it as an outlet for deserving up and comers. imaging how many people would be exposed to Elks Run it were a flip book with a Bendis written and drawn crime story?
All of this is easy for me to say, I don't have to spend all the fucking time getting it together or begging Marvel to do it. But it seems like a good idea in my head.

no, i don't think that'll ever happen, and i'm not sure that it should

Marvel does one thing
it reinterprets and updates the "universe", characters, and guildlines created by Stan Lee and friends in the early to mid 60s
on a conceptual level, i think that's fine. doesn't really interest me too much, but a lot of stuff doesn't

i just think it's royally messed up that what should be (and really is) a small publishing group that caters to a small nostalgia based niche controls the perception of what comics are to the outside media

but they are a company, and there main goal is to make money, and to make sure that they can continue to make money, so i really can't fault them

Got to disagree with you Goddard

You are just lumping everything the big two do into "superhero" work

Vertigo is much more a refined version of the horror genre. It's just the fact that the vertigo titles often push intot he regular dc titles that keeps them conveluted. Fables, Lucifer, both great examples of DC doing stuff outside of the Super Hero concept. Still fantasy! But that's like saying Stephen King is the same genre as Bradbury.

Mack's Kabuki, now Marvel Icon title, is definitely not a piece of the Marvel cog. JoeyQ has been quoted many times wishing they still had the Conan series.

As Icon gets more and more popular titles, it should be able to build. Like I said, Marvel just doesn't have the financial backing DC does. It takes longer to take risks.

Superhero books will always be the bread and butter, whether you like it or not. But that doesn't mean that the big two can't and aren't expanding on that.

[ds9]

I love the super hero genre and a love crime noir aswell. I usually just buy novels for my cime story fix and comics for my super hero fix. If more indie lovers were more open to main stream books i think you could draw must of us in. By having a us against the big two type of mentality all you do is turn people off. I dont want to hear how my buying superman every month is killing the indusrty. Vaughn got me to buy Ex Machina just by telling me how much he loves the project and not by saying how better it is then most of the mainstream shit out there. Its the same thing with Bendis with Powers and Brubaker with Sleepers.

[Andreas]

In ten years the market for comic books will basically be the same as it is now. Comics books will be more accepted due to all the superhero movies, but there won't be more people who collect them. DC will be more story-oriented, Marvel more art-oriented, the same as it is now. The mentality of the people who read comic books will be the same. Readers are, generally, rather conservative. You grow up with books from DC and Marvel and as you get older you require different things from the books you read and perhaps read more independent books. As for the pros, working for DC or Marvel allows them a temporary, relatively good and relatively safe monthly income, and it still allows them to do creator-owned work.

In the last ten years DC added several imprints. They publish a variety of books now: superhero books, European graphic novels, Will Eisner's graphic novels, manga, and they are more willing to give creator-owned titles a chance. Marvel's creator-owned imprints have been temporary in the past, and it's DC and not Marvel that publishes MOONSHADOW now. It's DC that decided to stick with a low-selling monthly book by a relative newcomer, only to find out some fifteen years later that a related collection, SANDMAN: ENDLESS NIGHTS, would sell almost half a million books.

In ten years it would be nice to see Noble Larimer, Shannon Chenoweth, the Beranek Brothers, Taki Soma, Michael Goodman, Diana Thirring, Tess Nemenski, Michael Wheeler, Matt Krizan, Steve Zegers, Charles Soule, Thommy Melanson, Mike Black, Lee Giles, Nick Thompson, Mark Andrew Smith, Craig Maloof, J. Andrew Clark, Bill Thomason, Donal Delay, Nathan Patton, Shane Welker, Joshua Hale Fialkov, Jeffrey LaJaunie, AAlgar, Ben Rosen, Mario Boon, Saul Colt, and all the other talented people on this board, where MOB are today. They are the future of comics. :D

---

Goddard, did you read Morrison's THE INVISIBLES? It seems to me that you still think too much in terms of Us vs. Them. Or like people who get their news and information mainly from TV. It doesn't matter if DC or Marvel dominate the newspages with news about their latest, hopefully good series. Just like it doesn't matter when a musician like Madonna publishes a new album and the video is played everywhere. Doesn't make it culturally more relevant. In the long term it's only the quality of a work that counts, the passion the creator put into it, and a voice that makes the reader want to come back for the next volume. If people prefer to limit their reading and ignore the variety that is already available, it's their decision.

Andreas
___________________
http://www.lefantastique.net/bd/sorties/Cyann03_01.jpg (http://www.zompist.com/frenchy.html)

[CraigM]

In ten years the market for comic books will basically be the same as it is now. Comics books will be more accepted due to all the superhero movies, but there won't be more people who collect them. DC will be more story-oriented, Marvel more art-oriented, the same as it is now. The mentality of the people who read comic books will be the same. Readers are, generally, rather conservative. You grow up with books from DC and Marvel and as you get older you require different things from the books you read and perhaps read more independent books. As for the pros, working for DC or Marvel allows them a temporary, relatively good and relatively safe monthly income, and it still allows them to do creator-owned work.

In the last ten years DC added several imprints. They publish a variety of books now: superhero books, European graphic novels, Will Eisner's graphic novels, manga, and they are more willing to give creator-owned titles a chance. Marvel's creator-owned imprints have been temporary in the past, and it's DC and not Marvel that publishes MOONSHADOW now. It's DC that decided to stick with a low-selling monthly book by a relative newcomer, only to find out some fifteen years later that a related collection, SANDMAN: ENDLESS NIGHTS, would sell almost half a million books.

In ten years it would be nice to see Noble Larimer, Shannon Chenoweth, the Beranek Brothers, Taki Soma, Michael Goodman, Diana Thirring, Tess Nemenski, Michael Wheeler, Matt Krizan, Steve Zegers, Charles Soule, Thommy Melanson, Mike Black, Lee Giles, Nick Thompson, Mark Andrew Smith, Craig Maloof, J. Andrew Clark, Bill Thomason, Donal Delay, Nathan Patton, Shane Welker, Joshua Hale Fialkov, Jeffrey LaJaunie, AAlgar, Ben Rosen, Mario Boon, Saul Colt, and all the other talented people on this board, where MOB are today. They are the future of comics. :D

---

Goddard, did you read Morrison's THE INVISIBLES? It seems to me that you still think too much in terms of Us vs. Them. Or like people who get their news and information mainly from TV. It doesn't matter if DC or Marvel dominate the newspages with news about their latest, hopefully good series. Just like it doesn't matter when a musician like Madonna publishes a new album and the video is played everywhere. Doesn't make it culturally more relevant. In the long term it's only the quality of a work that counts, the passion the creator put into it, and a voice that makes the reader want to come back for the next volume. If people prefer to limit their reading and ignore the variety that is already available, it's their decision.

Andreas
___________________
http://www.lefantastique.net/bd/sorties/Cyann03_01.jpg (http://www.zompist.com/frenchy.html)

Thanks man.

This has been a good thread. Let's keep it going.

Craig

[Diana]

I heard my name? :ecstatic:

Thank you Andreas. How could I not keep trying and pratising, with such wonderful words to encourage me. :)

[noble]

:oops:

I lose the board for a day and come back to find this.

Thanks for the props Andreas.

Psss... that $100 is in the mail :lol:

I have to agree that the future of comics is going to be built on the backs of what is considered the indie creators of today. As sad as it seems everyone has a finite amount of stories and ideas in them. For some people the creative wellspring seems almost infinite, for others it goes dry in a few short years.

That's why there needs to be the underground creator that is hungry for the spotlight. Who is full of bright shiny new ideas, and aren't afraid to try something that might seem radical in the eyes of the established professionals. They're new and young and don't know any better yet :wink:

[PoWerSurge]

:oops:

I lose the board for a day and come back to find this.

Thanks for the props Andreas.

Psss... that $100 is in the mail :lol:

I have to agree that the future of comics is going to be built on the backs of what is considered the indie creators of today. As sad as it seems everyone has a finite amount of stories and ideas in them. For some people the creative wellspring seems almost infinite, for others it goes dry in a few short years.

That's why there needs to be the underground creator that is hungry for the spotlight. Who is full of bright shiny new ideas, and aren't afraid to try something that might seem radical in the eyes of the established professionals. They're new and young and don't know any better yet :wink:

But that's nothing knew, is it?

The forefather's of main stream comics were indy guys, because there wasn't really a main stream, more like a trickle :wink:

[mario]

I'm part of the future of comics too! yippie!

[CraigM]

Some more! :)

I'll probably bump this up again after LA so that everyone who's there can post in it.

Craig

[William Satterwhite]

If anyone missed it, Brian Hibbs latest Tilting @ Windmills as well as some of the feedback comments might be of interest in regards to this conversation.

http://www.newsarama.com/Tilting2_0/Tiltingv215.htm

[CraigM]

With the WWLA Crew back, let's bump this one more time.

Craig