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View Full Version : New York plans to make Gender a Personal Choice



Steve Q
11-07-2006, 08:12 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/07/nyregion/07gender.html?ex=1320555600&en=2586a6bc89530f49&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Dear Lord this opens up a can of worms. I really don't like the implications of this

Brendan
11-07-2006, 08:20 AM
Political correctness just broke the silly meter.

ClintP
11-07-2006, 08:22 AM
does this mean men can now go in the womens restroom?

Jef UK
11-07-2006, 08:23 AM
I don't see anything wrong with this other than the ability to take advantage of it. But that's true of almost anything.

Natty P, Scientific Adventurer
11-07-2006, 08:23 AM
I don't see how this is a big deal.

Jef UK
11-07-2006, 08:23 AM
does this mean men can now go in the womens restroom?

In most NYC establishments, there's not a distinction anyway.

Steve Q
11-07-2006, 08:23 AM
does this mean men can now go in the womens restroom?

Thats what I;m worried about.

And forget restroom, a man would be able to go into a womans locker or shower room.

Steve Q
11-07-2006, 08:25 AM
I don't see anything wrong with this other than the ability to take advantage of it. But that's true of almost anything.

But the "taking advantage" part could hurt people. Or at the very leastm make them real damn uncomfortable

ClintP
11-07-2006, 08:25 AM
In most NYC establishments, there's not a distinction anyway.

Interesting. Is there just one big bathroom with stalls in there? Where do women go to chat about their dates if the guys can go in too. I feel so lied to from Sex in the City....

Ben
11-07-2006, 08:31 AM
Under the rule being considered by the cityís Board of Health, which is likely to be adopted soon, people born in the city would be able to change the documented sex on their birth certificates by providing affidavits from a doctor and a mental health professional laying out why their patients should be considered members of the opposite sex, and asserting that their proposed change would be permanent.
Yeah, this sounds easy to abuse... :roll:

Jef UK
11-07-2006, 08:32 AM
But the "taking advantage" part could hurt people. Or at the very leastm make them real damn uncomfortable

Look, someone who is going to hurt people isn't going to be allowed to do so by legally changing his or her gender. The whole point of this is so that no one would know that a transgendered person is a transgendered person in the first place. That's all. Transgendered people are already operating functionally as the man or woman they believe themselves to be, this just allows them to alter their birth cirtificate. That woman that used to be a dude hasn't been waiting for permission to use the woman's bathroom or showers anyway.

Natty P, Scientific Adventurer
11-07-2006, 08:33 AM
Yeah, this sounds easy to abuse... :roll:


How dare you make sense! This will be a abused! There will be perverted men looking at women! AHAHAHAH I LOVE JESUS

Ben
11-07-2006, 08:34 AM
How dare you make sense! This will be a abused! There will be perverted men looking at women! AHAHAHAH I LOVE JESUS
I know I wouldn't mind legally becoming a woman, so I can peep at chicks pooping! What about you guys (or should I say 'gals?')?

Steve Q
11-07-2006, 08:35 AM
Yeah, this sounds easy to abuse... :roll:

You know how people are able to get prescription drugs, even though they dont have any ailments?

Same thing. Plenty of corrupt doctors out there

Ben
11-07-2006, 08:35 AM
You know how people are able to get prescription drugs, even though they dont have any ailments?

Same thing. Plenty of corrupt doctors out thereAnd since prescription drugs are now illegal, you make perfect sense.

Matt Jay
11-07-2006, 08:37 AM
This is silly. Wow.

Steve Q
11-07-2006, 08:37 AM
Look, someone who is going to hurt people isn't going to be allowed to do so by legally changing his or her gender. The whole point of this is so that no one would know that a transgendered person is a transgendered person in the first place. That's all. Transgendered people are already operating functionally as the man or woman they believe themselves to be, this just allows them to alter their birth cirtificate. That woman that used to be a dude hasn't been waiting for permission to use the woman's bathroom or showers anyway.


So you think its ok for some 6'5 guy who has all the plumbing attached, to be able to enter a womans bathroom because he believes he's a woman?

Should I let any yutz enter the white house because he's thinking of runnign for president?

you have a penis. You are a man. Deal with it.

Steve Q
11-07-2006, 08:40 AM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_vdEXKSe7Do

Somewhat on topic...

Ben
11-07-2006, 08:40 AM
So you think its ok for some 6'5 guy who has all the plumbing attached, to be able to enter a womans bathroom because he believes he's a woman?

Should I let any yutz enter the white house because he's thinking of runnign for president?

you have a penis. You are a man. Deal with it.
Drrrrrr I'm Steve Q!!! Blah blah blah!! Blah blah blah!


Under the rule being considered by the cityís Board of Health, which is likely to be adopted soon, people born in the city would be able to change the documented sex on their birth certificates by providing affidavits from a doctor and a mental health professional laying out why their patients should be considered members of the opposite sex, and asserting that their proposed change would be permanent.

Steve Q
11-07-2006, 08:45 AM
Drrrrrr I'm Steve Q!!! Blah blah blah!! Blah blah blah!

I guess if men are allowed to think they're women, you're allowed to think you're funny

Natty P, Scientific Adventurer
11-07-2006, 08:45 AM
Steve, what are the implications of this? There are transgendered people using all sorts of bathrooms already and the world isn't blowing up.

Given that I'm not a transgendered person and I don't know any, I really fail to see how this will effect (yes "effect)my life. Or does your problem lie with transgendered people at large?

Ben
11-07-2006, 08:46 AM
I guess if men are allowed to think they're women, you're allowed to think you're funnyAnd I guess you're allowed to think you have any idea what you're talking about!

Ben
11-07-2006, 08:47 AM
Steve, what are the implications of this? There are transgendered people using all sorts of bathrooms already and the world isn't blowing up.

Given that I'm not a transgendered person and I don't know any, I really fail to see how this will effect (yes "effect)my life. Or does your problem lie with transgendered people at large?I don't know if Steve Q is one of these people, but there are a lot of people out there that stopped paying attention in Biology class once they got to the "boys have a Y chromosome and girls have a X" lesson. It's not really that simple.

Natty P, Scientific Adventurer
11-07-2006, 08:50 AM
I don't know if Steve Q is one of these people, but there are a lot of people out there that stopped paying attention in Biology class once they got to the "boys have a Y chromosome and girls have a X" lesson. It's not really that simple.

Fine, but how does that affect him or his life? Who cares?

Ben
11-07-2006, 08:50 AM
I couldn't find a more legible chart online, but this gives you a taste of all the many, many steps that go into sex differentiation in humans. Something can go wrong at any one of these steps.

http://health.enotes.com/images/genetic-disorders/gecd_02_img0201.jpg

Ben
11-07-2006, 08:51 AM
Fine, but how does that affect him or his life? Who cares?
It's an abomination unto the Lord.

Steve Q
11-07-2006, 08:53 AM
Steve, what are the implications of this? There are transgendered people using all sorts of bathrooms already and the world isn't blowing up.

Given that I'm not a transgendered person and I don't know any, I really fail to see how this will effect (yes "effect)my life. Or does your problem lie with transgendered people at large?

Truthfully? I'm not the biggest fan of transgendered people, buts its for the same reason I dont like plastic surgery. You are who you are, live to the best fo your ability, be happy with yourself! Its a mindset I cant wrap my head around

Now the law in general makes a very obvious difference between men and women "arbitrary." Why? Because someone intends to "live" as something else permanently. So every physical difference between one person and another should become completely arbitrary too.

And who is going to enforce this? Who's going to check up on this person to make sure he has his surgery or is living as another gender So what if he or she changes his/her mind?

Steve Q
11-07-2006, 08:55 AM
Fine, but how does that affect him or his life? Who cares?

You dont see this as a law that could potentially affect others? in both positive and negative ways?

That alone warrants it discussion in my opinion

Natty P, Scientific Adventurer
11-07-2006, 08:55 AM
Truthfully? I'm not the biggest fan of transgendered people, buts its for the same reason I dont like plastic surgery. You are who you are, live to the best fo your ability, be happy with yourself! Its a mindset I cant wrap my head around

Now the law in general makes a very obvious difference between men and women "arbitrary." Why? Because someone intends to "live" as something else permanently. So every physical difference between one person and another should become completely arbitrary too.

And who is going to enforce this? Who's going to check up on this person to make sure he has his surgery or is living as another gender So what if he or she changes his/her mind?



Again, who cares? Are these people fucking up your life? Are you reaching for twat and grabbing cock?


The logical leaps you are making are stupid. No offense, but they're stupid.

SteveFlack
11-07-2006, 08:57 AM
Hopefully, this will lead to race also becoming a personal choice, making my dreams of winning an NAACP Image award a possibility!

-Steve!

Ben
11-07-2006, 08:58 AM
Truthfully? I'm not the biggest fan of transgendered people, buts its for the same reason I dont like plastic surgery. You are who you are, live to the best fo your ability, be happy with yourself! Its a mindset I cant wrap my head aroundYou've clearly never met one...

Should deaf people have hearing aids? Shoudl blind people use those poll thingies or seeing-eye dogs? Should they jsut be happy with themselves? Should cancer patients get treatment? No, they should just be happy with themselves and do the best they can with their tumor. Should depressed or bipolar people just deal with it? They shouldn't get treatment or anything. They should just "be happy" with themselves!

Ben
11-07-2006, 08:59 AM
Now the law in general makes a very obvious difference between men and women "arbitrary." Why? Because someone intends to "live" as something else permanently. So every physical difference between one person and another should become completely arbitrary too.

And who is going to enforce this? Who's going to check up on this person to make sure he has his surgery or is living as another gender So what if he or she changes his/her mind?
.

Under the rule being considered by the cityís Board of Health, which is likely to be adopted soon, people born in the city would be able to change the documented sex on their birth certificates by providing affidavits from a doctor and a mental health professional laying out why their patients should be considered members of the opposite sex, and asserting that their proposed change would be permanent.

Steve Q
11-07-2006, 09:06 AM
Again, who cares? Are these people fucking up your life? Are you reaching for twat and grabbing cock?


The logical leaps you are making are stupid. No offense, but they're stupid.


So, oh awesome genius, explain it to me slow so I can understand

We have actual, physical differences between one gender and another. Now, if I were to make changes to my body so that I have all the same physical attributes of a woman, great, i'm a woman now.

But this is a law that says, those differences? Dont worry about them yet. As long as some quack says that you believe you're a woman you do whatever you damn please you crazy kid.

I think thats ridiculous. I think that it can be applied to many other physical differences. Because hey, as long as I believe that I'm something, it automatically makes it true.

And no it probably wont effect me personally. But I'm allowed to have an opinion on it.

Steve Q
11-07-2006, 09:07 AM
You've clearly never met one...

Should deaf people have hearing aids? Shoudl blind people use those poll thingies or seeing-eye dogs? Should they jsut be happy with themselves? Should cancer patients get treatment? No, they should just be happy with themselves and do the best they can with their tumor. Should depressed or bipolar people just deal with it? They shouldn't get treatment or anything. They should just "be happy" with themselves!


wow. you're comparing gender to physical ailments. Pure genius :roll:

Last i heard, there's nothing wrong with being a man or a woman.

xyzzy
11-07-2006, 09:15 AM
wow. you're comparing gender to physical ailments. Pure genius :roll:

Last i heard, there's nothing wrong with being a man or a woman.

Unless, of course, it's the wrong one.

Ben
11-07-2006, 09:41 AM
wow. you're comparing gender to physical ailments. Pure genius :roll:

Last i heard, there's nothing wrong with being a man or a woman.If only it were that simple. Again, I'll post this:

http://health.enotes.com/images/genetic-disorders/gecd_02_img0201.jpg

That's a simplification of the process of sex differentiation in humans. If something goes wrong at ANY ONE OF THOSE STEPS (as it often does), you may get a person that's very confused about what they really are. In extreme cases, it is perfectly clear and obvious who is a man and who is a woman (extreme cases are the norm). But in many cases, like those this law is trying to help, it is not perfectly clear and obvious. In those cases, it is completely reasonable to compare their condition to physical ailments because they ARE physical ailments.

Ben
11-07-2006, 09:43 AM
So, oh awesome genius, explain it to me slow so I can understand

We have actual, physical differences between one gender and another. Now, if I were to make changes to my body so that I have all the same physical attributes of a woman, great, i'm a woman now.

But this is a law that says, those differences? Dont worry about them yet. As long as some quack says that you believe you're a woman you do whatever you damn please you crazy kid.

I think thats ridiculous. I think that it can be applied to many other physical differences. Because hey, as long as I believe that I'm something, it automatically makes it true.

And no it probably wont effect me personally. But I'm allowed to have an opinion on it.Your opinion is perfectly valid if you believe that the only difference between men and women is the kind of genitalia they have between their legs. If, on the other hand, you were educated about sex differentiation and the actual genetic, physical, and psychological differences between men and women, you'd see how naive your opinion is.

Queen of the Ban Age
11-07-2006, 09:45 AM
We have actual, physical differences between one gender and another.

Actually, we don't. Gender is what you psychologically believe you are, while sex involves what you have in your pants.

Good on New York for doing this.

Ben
11-07-2006, 09:47 AM
Actually, we don't. Gender is what you psychologically believe you are, while sex involves what you have in your pants..Even this is a gross oversimplification of what really goes on biologically, but it at least acknowledges that it's not as simple as whether you have a wee-wee or a hoo-hoo.

Thomas Mauer
11-07-2006, 09:51 AM
We have actual, physical differences between one gender and another. Now, if I were to make changes to my body so that I have all the same physical attributes of a woman, great, i'm a woman now.

Physical differences only exist betweent the sexes. Gender is a mindset.

EDIT: I see Alysha already said this. Oopsie. :)

In that case, let me add that in some African societies, there are three genders which shows that genders are a psychological as well as social thing. Women there can assume male roles in their society and are perfectly accepted as that third gender.

Queen of the Ban Age
11-07-2006, 09:51 AM
Even this is a gross oversimplification of what really goes on biologically, but it at least acknowledges that it's not as simple as whether you have a wee-wee or a hoo-hoo.

I figured it was the easiest way of saying "Gender doesn't mean you get either a peener or a 'gina."

Ryan F
11-07-2006, 09:55 AM
Even this is a gross oversimplification of what really goes on biologically, but it at least acknowledges that it's not as simple as whether you have a wee-wee or a hoo-hoo.

She is right though that it's not merely biological. Gender is socially constructed - even some people who's biological sex is clear won't necessarily fit the culturally-defined boundaries of their gender.

Put me in the camp that this is good, forward thinking, move. I don't see a lot of avenues for abuse either. There are easier ways to get into the women's locker room than legally changing your gender.

Ray G.
11-07-2006, 10:13 AM
Good to know NY is on the ball, dealing with the most important issues around.
:roll:

xyzzy
11-07-2006, 10:14 AM
Good to know NY is on the ball, dealing with the most important issues around.
:roll:

Because only one issue can be addressed at a time?

Ray G.
11-07-2006, 10:16 AM
Because only one issue can be addressed at a time?

The state New York and New Jersey are in right now, I can think of at least twenty that should be a bigger priority than this, gay marriage, trans fats, foie gras, or any other number of time-wasting bills being passed.

Ryan F
11-07-2006, 10:17 AM
Good to know NY is on the ball, dealing with the most important issues around.
:roll:

It's not like the NY House spent days debating this like flag-burning.

It's a Board of Health proposed Rule. Probably not a huge distraction. Also, this probably affects a whole lot more people than flag burning does.

xyzzy
11-07-2006, 10:20 AM
The state New York and New Jersey are in right now, I can think of at least twenty that should be a bigger priority than this, gay marriage, trans fats, foie gras, or any other number of time-wasting bills being passed.

Not to be a douche, but I'd like to see this list of issues that are being completely ignored in New York.

Brendan
11-07-2006, 10:24 AM
Why stop at gender? Why can't we choose our own species?

If I want to declare myself a buffalo, who are you to suppress my rights? Stop oppressing me! Moooo.

Ray G.
11-07-2006, 10:26 AM
Not to be a douche, but I'd like to see this list of issues that are being completely ignored in New York.

For one thing, both states are in a massive budget crunch. They need to be trimming government infrastructure. The drug laws need major reform, and the Supreme Court struck down the death penalty, necessitating a debate on reforming it so it passes muster, because even in deep blue NY, the majority supports it being reinstated.

xyzzy
11-07-2006, 10:32 AM
For one thing, both states are in a massive budget crunch. They need to be trimming government infrastructure. The drug laws need major reform, and the Supreme Court struck down the death penalty, necessitating a debate on reforming it so it passes muster, because even in deep blue NY, the majority supports it being reinstated.

You're probably right that nothing is being done about the drug laws, but that's politics. Nobody can reform drug laws because they're scared to death of being accused of being soft on drugs/crime.

The budget and death penalty stuff, though... do you really think that there is absolutely no activity on this in government?

Thomas Mauer
11-07-2006, 10:36 AM
Why stop at gender? Why can't we choose our own species?

If I want to declare myself a buffalo, who are you to suppress my rights? Stop oppressing me! Moooo.

We still lack the technology for species realignment. If you can hold out for about 20 years, you can put yourself out to pasture. ;)

Jef UK
11-07-2006, 10:39 AM
So you think its ok for some 6'5 guy who has all the plumbing attached, to be able to enter a womans bathroom because he believes he's a woman?

Should I let any yutz enter the white house because he's thinking of runnign for president?

you have a penis. You are a man. Deal with it.

First: no, there should definitely be some sort of height requirement. Other than that, assuming said person is entering the women's room to use the bathroom, then yes I think it is okay. When using a unisex bathroom with multiple stalls, we don't all rape each other, and we're not even transgendered!:o !

Second: your analogy is as shitty as Dr. Herbert Exlax's hot tub after a cup of coffee and a smoke.

Third: some people have a penis and don't consider themselves men. Deal with it.

xyzzy
11-07-2006, 10:40 AM
Why stop at gender? Why can't we choose our own species?

If I want to declare myself a buffalo, who are you to suppress my rights? Stop oppressing me! Moooo.

If it makes you happy, I'd be more than happy to think of you as a buffalo. No skin off of my back.

Jef UK
11-07-2006, 10:41 AM
Why stop at gender? Why can't we choose our own species?

If I want to declare myself a buffalo, who are you to suppress my rights? Stop oppressing me! Moooo.

I still don't think you grasp to what "gender" refers.

Thomas Mauer
11-07-2006, 10:54 AM
If it makes you happy, I'd be more than happy to think of you as a buffalo. No skin off of my back.

But will it be skin off HIS back? :shifty:

Ben
11-07-2006, 10:59 AM
I still don't think you grasp to what "gender" refers.At least you two have something in common.

JBElliott
11-07-2006, 11:15 AM
does this mean men can now go in the womens restroom?

Why would you want to do that? The lines are always longer in the womens' restrooms.

JBElliott
11-07-2006, 11:21 AM
Why stop at gender? Why can't we choose our own species?

If I want to declare myself a buffalo, who are you to suppress my rights? Stop oppressing me! Moooo.

You're an impressive buffalo if you can type with your hooves and use your tiny brain to put together that post!

JBElliott
11-07-2006, 11:24 AM
I still don't think you grasp to what "gender" refers.

Yeah, I got something for you to grasp right here!

Sorry, it was too easy talking about "gender" and "grasping." :D

Ben Weldon
11-07-2006, 11:42 AM
Good to know NY is on the ball, dealing with the most important issues around.
:roll:

It may not be a important issue to you, but do you think the people that this dose effect should just sit quietly in the corner until all the other "more important" issues have been adrest?

Brendan
11-07-2006, 11:48 AM
You're an impressive buffalo if you can type with your hooves and use your tiny brain to put together that post!

I always try to be the best at everything.

Brendan
11-07-2006, 11:50 AM
We still lack the technology for species realignment. If you can hold out for about 20 years, you can put yourself out to pasture. ;)

Nah. If gender is defined by how I feel and has nothing to do with biology (despite hundreds of years of science that proves otherwise), why should I let a silly thing like science define my species? It's all about how I feel. Laws should be All About Me. Moooooo.

Ben Weldon
11-07-2006, 11:53 AM
You can't be born in to the wrong species. You can however be born in the wrong gender.

Christian Beranek
11-07-2006, 12:02 PM
This is an important step in terms of human rights. I applaud it.

xyzzy
11-07-2006, 12:03 PM
Nah. If gender is defined by how I feel and has nothing to do with biology (despite hundreds of years of science that proves otherwise), why should I let a silly thing like science define my species? It's all about how I feel. Laws should be All About Me. Moooooo.

Tell you what, we'll turn this whole buffalo thing over to the leading experts in the fields of medicine and psychiatry and go with their recommendation, just like with the gender issue. How's that?

Queen of the Ban Age
11-07-2006, 12:07 PM
Nah. If gender is defined by how I feel and has nothing to do with biology (despite hundreds of years of science that proves otherwise), why should I let a silly thing like science define my species? It's all about how I feel. Laws should be All About Me. Moooooo.

I'll tell you what -- when you're suicidal because people don't understand that you were meant to be a buffalo instead of a man, that you physiologically have the brain of a buffalo and the body of a man, we'll talk about having that species change done.

Brendan
11-07-2006, 12:12 PM
Tell you what, we'll turn this whole buffalo thing over to the leading experts in the fields of medicine and psychiatry and go with their recommendation, just like with the gender issue. How's that?

How dare you oppress me with your medicine and science!!! This is all about how I feel.

Brendan
11-07-2006, 12:23 PM
I'll tell you what -- when you're suicidal because people don't understand that you were meant to be a buffalo instead of a man, that you physiologically have the brain of a buffalo and the body of a man, we'll talk about having that species change done.

If someone is suicidal, they need counseling.

If someone feels like they are in the wrong gender, there are surgeries and drugs to help correct that if the person so chooses.

But gender being a matter of choice? Thatís just silly. Gender is no more matter a choice than species. Human beings are either male or female. Thatís Biology 101.

xyzzy
11-07-2006, 12:27 PM
If someone is suicidal, they need counseling.

If someone feels like they are in the wrong gender, there are surgeries and drugs to help correct that if the person so chooses.

But gender being a matter of choice? Thatís just silly. Gender is no more matter a choice than species. Human beings are either male or female. Thatís Biology 101.

Or hermaphrodites. There are actually other combinations aside from XY and XX.

Regardless, why should I believe your assertion over that of experts in the field?

BWC Boston
11-07-2006, 12:35 PM
Truthfully? I'm not the biggest fan of transgendered people, buts its for the same reason I dont like plastic surgery. You are who you are, live to the best fo your ability, be happy with yourself! Its a mindset I cant wrap my head around

Well, if you can't wrap your head around it. Alright, I'll call New York (Albany extension), and we'll sort this whole thing out. There should be a retraction in the paper tomorrow, with an open letter of apology signed by all of the people who ACTUALLY had some sort of stake in this proposal, mortified that you had to think about them at all today.

SteveFlack
11-07-2006, 12:36 PM
You can't be born in to the wrong species. You can however be born in the wrong gender.

Tell that to the furries.

-Steve!

Brendan
11-07-2006, 12:55 PM
Regardless, why should I believe your assertion over that of experts in the field?

It isn't my assertion. This is basic biology.

Moo. Snort. Mooooo. Snort-snort.

Queen of the Ban Age
11-07-2006, 01:01 PM
If someone is suicidal, they need counseling.

If someone feels like they are in the wrong gender, there are surgeries and drugs to help correct that if the person so chooses.

But gender being a matter of choice? Thatís just silly. Gender is no more matter a choice than species. Human beings are either male or female. Thatís Biology 101.

I don't think you're understanding. GENDER isn't a choice like "Should I wear the red shirt today, or the green striped one?" It's a psychological choice, aided by body chemistry. It has been proven that most transgendered people will have the brain of the sex they should be, and the body of the opposite. You are willing to concede that the female and male brains are different, yes?

SEX is a physical thing that can be changed with surgery. There are all manner of things between male and female, as Ben posted. People aren't just born boy or girl, penis or vagina. It'd be nice if it worked so simply, but it doesn't.

And if you don't believe in such things, explain Jamie Lee Curtis. She was born with both male and female sex organs.

xyzzy
11-07-2006, 01:16 PM
It isn't my assertion. This is basic biology.

Moo. Snort. Mooooo. Snort-snort.

Then why do medical professionals disagree with you, if it's so fundamental? Did they all get together and decide to play some sort of elaborate prank?

By the way, not only are your little animal noises not funny, but they also make you look like an asshole.

Jef UK
11-07-2006, 01:27 PM
But gender being a matter of choice? Thatís just silly. Gender is no more matter a choice than species. Human beings are either male or female. Thatís Biology 101.

You're about as smart as a buffalo.

SteveFlack
11-07-2006, 01:30 PM
I don't think you're understanding. GENDER isn't a choice like "Should I wear the red shirt today, or the green striped one?" It's a psychological choice, aided by body chemistry. It has been proven that most transgendered people will have the brain of the sex they should be, and the body of the opposite. You are willing to concede that the female and male brains are different, yes?

SEX is a physical thing that can be changed with surgery. There are all manner of things between male and female, as Ben posted. People aren't just born boy or girl, penis or vagina. It'd be nice if it worked so simply, but it doesn't.

And if you don't believe in such things, explain Jamie Lee Curtis. She was born with both male and female sex organs.

And you just lost credibility by finishing your statement with an urban legend.

-Steve!

xyzzy
11-07-2006, 01:32 PM
And you just lost all credibility by finishing your statement with an urban legend.

I wouldn't say all credibility. I mean, people are born with male and female sex organs.

SteveFlack
11-07-2006, 01:39 PM
I wouldn't say all credibility. I mean, people are born with male and female sex organs.

Amended.

-Steve!

Ben
11-07-2006, 01:47 PM
The word "choice" shouldn't be anywhere near the subject of gender identity. All that does is confuse the issue completely because people associate the word "choice" with conscious decision-making.

Look, everything's biologically based. Even culture. What cultures define as "male" and "female" is not arbitrary. It's based on how the biology interacts with the environment (technology, geography, neighboring societies, etc.).

So stop this "I FEEL like a girl, so I'm a girl" nonsense! That's now what they're saying what they say gender is a "choice."

Queen of the Ban Age
11-07-2006, 01:57 PM
And you just lost credibility by finishing your statement with an urban legend.

-Steve!

Several of the transgendered people I've talked to take it as fact. I'm sure it'll never be determined either way unless she states categorically it is or isn't, but that's only an example.

xyzzy
11-07-2006, 02:00 PM
Several of the transgendered people I've talked to take it as fact. I'm sure it'll never be determined either way unless she states categorically it is or isn't, but that's only an example.

In the absence of evidence to the positive, you should really assume the negative.

Queen of the Ban Age
11-07-2006, 02:01 PM
In the absence of evidence to the positive, you should really assume the negative.

Again, an example.

Brendan
11-07-2006, 02:05 PM
I don't think you're understanding. GENDER isn't a choice like "Should I wear the red shirt today, or the green striped one?" It's a psychological choice, aided by body chemistry. It has been proven that most transgendered people will have the brain of the sex they should be, and the body of the opposite.

Proven? No. It hasn't. Psychology and psychiatry have as much to do with philosophy as science. Psychology's data is most often a study of human behavior, which can be motivated by any number of factors. (And yes, biology is certainly one of them; on that I agree with you.) We know so little about the human brain. We've learned lots in the past 100 years, but the human psyche is still a vast frontier for the most part.

And I do apologize if the buffalo crack miffed anyone. It was an attempt at humor. If my attempt failed, it wouldn't be the first time, but it was an attempt to show the point that if gender is merely a matter of choice, why not species? Who are you to tell me or anyone else what species I feel like? If it's all about feelings...

Brendan
11-07-2006, 02:07 PM
You're about as smart as a buffalo.

Funny thing about these type of discussions is that the folks who are so bent on crying for "tolerance" on these issues are in actual fact the most intolerant folks in the discussion. It's why political correctness and hypocrisy go so well together. :roll:

xyzzy
11-07-2006, 02:09 PM
Funny thing about these type of discussions is that the folks who are so bent on crying for "tolerance" on these issues are in actual fact the most intolerant folks in the discussion. It's why political correctness and hypocrisy go so well together. :roll:

It's funny how the people on the other side really don't understand what tolerance means.

For example, nothing about tolerance means that I can't think that your opinion is stupid and wrong. Tolerance merely means that I accept your right to have that opinion, stupid and wrong as it is. I'm not going to try and make it illegal to hold that opinion. I'm not going to try and take away any of your rights because of your opinion. I'll simply continue to think that your opinion is stupid and wrong and argue against it. That's what tolerance is.

SteveFlack
11-07-2006, 02:20 PM
"Congratulations, Mr and Mrs Smith, you have a child. It shall be gender-less until it comes to terms with it's emotional state and decided whether it is male, female, or buffalo."

-Steve!

Ben
11-07-2006, 02:20 PM
Funny thing about these type of discussions is that the folks who are so bent on crying for "tolerance" on these issues are in actual fact the most intolerant folks in the discussion. It's why political correctness and hypocrisy go so well together. :roll:Yeah, they're so intolerant of ignorance and incorrect information. What a bunch of hypocrites... :roll:

Ben
11-07-2006, 02:21 PM
It's funny how the people on the other side really don't understand what tolerance means.

For example, nothing about tolerance means that I can't think that your opinion is stupid and wrong. Tolerance merely means that I accept your right to have that opinion, stupid and wrong as it is. I'm not going to try and make it illegal to hold that opinion. I'm not going to try and take away any of your rights because of your opinion. I'll simply continue to think that your opinion is stupid and wrong and argue against it. That's what tolerance is.Saying "you say you're so tolerate, but you're intolerant to my viewpoint" is pretty much like comparing someone to Hitler. It means the conversation is not going to progress any further.

Queen of the Ban Age
11-07-2006, 02:24 PM
Next we're going to be saying that black people should be able to have rights! Those silly negroes, when WILL they ever learn?

xyzzy
11-07-2006, 02:24 PM
Saying "you say you're so tolerate, but you're intolerant to my viewpoint" is pretty much like comparing someone to Hitler. It means the conversation is not going to progress any further.


It's just such a stupid argument.

And the thing is, there are some actual problems with the proposal that I see that nobody has mentioned, in the rush to make hay about gender/sex. For example, while I have no problem with someone changing their official gender, I don't think that altering the birth certificate makes sense.

SteveFlack
11-07-2006, 02:26 PM
Next we're going to be saying that black people should be able to have rights! Those silly negroes, when WILL they ever learn?

Ok, now you have lost all credibility.

-Steve!

Ben
11-07-2006, 02:27 PM
It's just such a stupid argument.

And the thing is, there are some actual problems with the proposal that I see that nobody has mentioned, in the rush to make hay about gender/sex. For example, while I have no problem with someone changing their official gender, I don't think that altering the birth certificate makes sense.I'd be interested in hearing the pluses and minuses of altering the birth certificate like this. I'm sure it happens in other circumstances.

Or maybe I should just make some outrageous claim about birth certificates based on my own naive opinion! WHABLAH!!!!

The Human Target
11-07-2006, 02:27 PM
Five stars people. :lol:

Really.

I'm on the pro-side of this.

BWC Boston
11-07-2006, 02:28 PM
Next we're going to be saying that black people should be able to have rights! Those silly negroes, when WILL they ever learn?

Sigh. Agreeing with you is SO HARD sometimes.

Ben
11-07-2006, 02:28 PM
Ok, now you have lost all credibility.

-Steve!I don't know... is comparing someone to slave owners worse than comparing someone to Hitler?

Queen of the Ban Age
11-07-2006, 02:28 PM
Ok, now you have lost all credibility.

-Steve!

It's absolutely no different for a transgendered person to have rights than it is for someone with a different skin color. Do you really think that transgendered people wake up and say "You know what? I want to become a social pariah today!"

Queen of the Ban Age
11-07-2006, 02:29 PM
Sigh. Agreeing with you is SO HARD sometimes.

Proving a point that's so ridiculously evident is hard sometimes, too. It's all about what's socially acceptable at the time.

Queen of the Ban Age
11-07-2006, 02:31 PM
I don't know... is comparing someone to slave owners worse than comparing someone to Hitler?

Dammit, I'm German AND Italian. Should've gone with Hitler.

xyzzy
11-07-2006, 02:32 PM
I'd be interested in hearing the pluses and minuses of altering the birth certificate like this. I'm sure it happens in other circumstances.

Or maybe I should just make some outrageous claim about birth certificates based on my own naive opinion! WHABLAH!!!!

The issue I have with the birth certificate is that what it records is a simple fact. Sex at birth. It's not about gender identity or anything like that. Just like if I changed my name, it doesn't change the name I had when I was born.

I understand the reason that they want to do it this way, but personally, I feel it's too much. Retroactively changing past documents to reflect a change in the present is just something that I feel shoudl be avoided.

SteveFlack
11-07-2006, 02:33 PM
It's absolutely no different for a transgendered person to have rights than it is for someone with a different skin color. Do you really think that transgendered people wake up and say "You know what? I want to become a social pariah today!"

Hey, I'm all for transgendered people. I believe that they truly are one of the most discriminated portions of society, but this is a little much, but there are no laws preventing them from doing anything, they're just social stigmas.

And I'm sorry, but just because you can get a piece of paper that says your a woman, it doesn't mean that all of a sudden, you're a woman, and honestly, I don't see it helping.

-Steve!

Ben
11-07-2006, 02:33 PM
It's absolutely no different for a transgendered person to have rights than it is for someone with a different skin color. Do you really think that transgendered people wake up and say "You know what? I want to become a social pariah today!"I don't want to be rude, but.... um... you're a great moderator... umm. we were making some progress here.... I compared their points to when someone says someone is Hitler.... and then you go and compare them to slave owners.... it's... it's not helping.... You're a great moderator, though! Super great! Like 120 great!

Ben
11-07-2006, 02:34 PM
The issue I have with the birth certificate is that what it records is a simple fact. Sex at birth. It's not about gender identity or anything like that. Just like if I changed my name, it doesn't change the name I had when I was born.

I understand the reason that they want to do it this way, but personally, I feel it's too much. Retroactively changing past documents to reflect a change in the present is just something that I feel shoudl be avoided.Do they ever amend birth certificates? Like if someone gets adopted or the correct father is discovered, etc.? So the old information is still preserved.

Are there cases where it's justified to change the birth certificate?

Queen of the Ban Age
11-07-2006, 02:35 PM
Hey, I'm all for transgendered people. I believe that they truly are one of the most discriminated portions of society, but this is a little much, but there are no laws preventing them from doing anything, they're just social stigmas.

And I'm sorry, but just because you can get a piece of paper that says your a woman, it doesn't mean that all of a sudden, you're a woman, and honestly, I don't see it helping.

-Steve!

If it's important to them, it's really not hurting anyone. If they want to be so unattached to what they used to be, I really don't have a problem with it.

While I agree it's not necessary by any means, I think it's a step in the right direction for acceptance.

xyzzy
11-07-2006, 02:35 PM
Do they ever amend birth certificates? Like if someone gets adopted or the correct father is discovered, etc.? So the old information is still preserved.

Are there cases where it's justified to change the birth certificate?

I'm not sure. Personally, what I would do is to issue an amended birth certificate, but preserve the original as is, in the event of a factual error.

The thing is, I feel that a birth certificate records the biological sex of the baby. And while I understand that the gender of an individual may not correspond with that sex, the biological sex is still a fact of life and shouldn't be erased from the records.

SteveFlack
11-07-2006, 02:36 PM
The issue I have with the birth certificate is that what it records is a simple fact. Sex at birth. It's not about gender identity or anything like that. Just like if I changed my name, it doesn't change the name I had when I was born.

I understand the reason that they want to do it this way, but personally, I feel it's too much. Retroactively changing past documents to reflect a change in the present is just something that I feel shoudl be avoided.

That is true. The point that "sex is different from gender" keeps being brought up, and if you refer to most birth certificates, they say sex, not gender. Add in the fact that they also list your birth statistics (height, and weight) means that it is a record of that specific moment, and not some future surgically altered state.

-Steve!

Queen of the Ban Age
11-07-2006, 02:37 PM
I don't want to be rude, but.... um... you're a great moderator... umm. we were making some progress here.... I compared their points to when someone says someone is Hitler.... and then you go and compare them to slave owners.... it's... it's not helping.... You're a great moderator, though! Super great! Like 120 great!

It's more a blacks weren't accepted by society then, transgendered aren't today kinda thing. Fatties are next.

Ben
11-07-2006, 02:38 PM
That is true. The point that "sex is different from gender" keeps being brought up, and if you refer to most birth certificates, they say sex, not gender. Add in the fact that they also list your birth statistics (height, and weight) means that it is a record of that specific moment, and not some future surgically altered state.

-Steve!To avoid confusion, new birth certificates should just have a spot where you circle:

Penis / Vagina / Other (please, specific: _________________ )

BWC Boston
11-07-2006, 02:39 PM
It's more a blacks weren't accepted by society then, transgendered aren't today kinda thing. Fatties are next.

But we're not talking about being accepted by society. We're talking about changing a legal status. Your "argument" was condescending, inflammatory, and irrelevent.

Jamie Howdeshell
11-07-2006, 02:40 PM
i honestly don't see any problem with this.

i think the vehemence some of you guys are showing towards this is just another example of people letting their distaste for someone else's personal choices dictate your arguments.



Ok, now you have lost all credibility.

-Steve!


uhmmm yeah.

with posts like the one below, i'm not sure you're of much use as a judge of credibility:


"Congratulations, Mr and Mrs Smith, you have a child. It shall be gender-less until it comes to terms with it's emotional state and decided whether it is male, female, or buffalo."

-Steve!

:mistrust:

Brendan
11-07-2006, 02:40 PM
Yeah, they're so intolerant of ignorance and incorrect information. What a bunch of hypocrites... :roll:

Attacking someone's views is fine. That's why we're hear. Attacking the person...then you're just being rude.

Ben
11-07-2006, 02:41 PM
Attacking someone's views is fine. That's why we're hear. Attacking the person...then you're just being rude.I don't attack anyone on this board (in case you're referring to me). Words like naive and ignorant are not insults.

Queen of the Ban Age
11-07-2006, 02:43 PM
But we're not talking about being accepted by society. We're talking about changing a legal status. Your "argument" was condescending, inflammatory, and irrelevent.

After the whole buffalo thing, I'm thinking that there's still a real problem with acceptance, even here. And I'd like to think that this board is on a slightly higher plane of thinking.

Plus Lohan boobs.

Jamie Howdeshell
11-07-2006, 02:44 PM
Your "argument" was condescending, inflammatory, and irrelevent.

considering a lot of the arguments in this thread are of the same quality, i'm not sure why you're choosing to highlight hers.

:-?

Ben
11-07-2006, 02:45 PM
considering a lot of the arguments in this thread are of the same quality, i'm not sure why you're choosing to highlight hers.

:-?You eat poop for dinner and are like "Oh, good dinner!"

Queen of the Ban Age
11-07-2006, 02:46 PM
You eat poop for dinner and are like "Oh, good dinner!"

Corn or no corn?

Brendan
11-07-2006, 02:47 PM
It's absolutely no different for a transgendered person to have rights than it is for someone with a different skin color. Do you really think that transgendered people wake up and say "You know what? I want to become a social pariah today!"

Slow down, cowgirl. No one I saw is talking about robbing anyone of their human rights. Transgendered people have the right to the full protection of the law just like everyone else. No one is saying any different.

If someone wants to consider themselves male or female or somewhere in between, who's stopping them? Go forth and be happy. But do we really have to legislate everything? Do we really need a law defining circles as round and water as wet?

I don't know that this new law is really hurting anyone. I just find it silly and unnecessary.

BWC Boston
11-07-2006, 02:49 PM
considering a lot of the arguments in this thread are of the same quality, i'm not sure why you're choosing to highlight hers.

:-?
Because

A) she's a mod. Those who punish others for the stupid shit should at least pretend to be above the stupid shit themselves

and B) I agree with her viewpoint, and her argument was doing more harm than good, in my opinion.

xyzzy
11-07-2006, 02:49 PM
Slow down, cowgirl. No one I saw is talking about robbing anyone of their human rights. Transgendered people have the right to the full protection of the law just like everyone else. No one is saying any different.

If someone wants to consider themselves male or female or somewhere in between, who's stopping them? Go forth and be happy. But do we really have to legislate everything? Do we really need a law defining circles as round and water as wet?

I don't know that this new law is really hurting anyone. I just find it silly and unnecessary.

If you had started with this instead of the ridiculous "I'm a buffalo" argument, this discussion would have been a lot less stupid.

Wastrel
11-07-2006, 02:50 PM
And I'd like to think that this board is on a slightly higher plane of thinking....this board? really? :p

Brendan
11-07-2006, 02:51 PM
After the whole buffalo thing, I'm thinking that there's still a real problem with acceptance, even here.

The buffalo bit wasn't a hit. Again, my apologies. A hamfisted attempt at humor that didn't work. It was a tongue-in-cheek attempt to make a point. I find this legislation silly and unnecessary. My response was meant to be equally silly. Sorry if it offended. Mea culpa.



And I'd like to think that this board is on a slightly higher plane of thinking.

You've been around here long enough to know better.

Brendan
11-07-2006, 02:52 PM
If you had started with this instead of the ridiculous "I'm a buffalo" argument, this discussion would have been a lot less stupid.

Fair enough. But the buffalo bit was intended to be silly. That was kinda the whole point. A misfire? Okay. Mea culpa.

Queen of the Ban Age
11-07-2006, 02:52 PM
Slow down, cowgirl. No one I saw is talking about robbing anyone of their human rights. Transgendered people have the right to the full protection of the law just like everyone else. No one is saying any different.

If someone wants to consider themselves male or female or somewhere in between, who's stopping them? Go forth and be happy. But do we really have to legislate everything? Do we really need a law defining circles as round and water as wet?

I don't know that this new law is really hurting anyone. I just find it silly and unnecessary.

If it makes people happy, I don't have a problem with it. At all. And yeah -- it's silly that we have to have legislation for things like this. It's silly that we have to have legislation about gays marrying and an individual's reproductive rights, too. Hell, it's silly that we have to have rules posted at the top of this board.

But there's always someone out there who wants to screw the other guy's happiness. Or believes they don't deserve it because of what they believe. It's a shame when we have to ensure rights for everyone, rather than the rights just being there.

CraigM
11-07-2006, 02:54 PM
So you think its ok for some 6'5 guy who has all the plumbing attached, to be able to enter a womans bathroom because he believes he's a woman?

Should I let any yutz enter the white house because he's thinking of runnign for president?

you have a penis. You are a man. Deal with it.
I'm more concerned that you're letting people into the White House. Do you have permission to do this?

Craig

xyzzy
11-07-2006, 02:55 PM
I don't know that this new law is really hurting anyone. I just find it silly and unnecessary.

It should be noted that as far as I can tell, this isn't being legislated. It's simply a regulatory body changing some of their requirements for an already established procedure.

Brendan
11-07-2006, 02:57 PM
If it makes people happy, I don't have a problem with it.

Fair enough, but I fail to see how this law could do that. If someone is secure in their own identity, why do they need this law? If they aren't, is a law going to help? Laws are intended to protect our rights, not grant us personal affirmation. I don't need a law telling me that it's okay to read comics. Now, if someone should pass a law saying it is illegal to read comics, then we got a fight.

xyzzy
11-07-2006, 02:58 PM
Fair enough. But the buffalo bit was intended to be silly. That was kinda the whole point. A misfire? Okay. Mea culpa.

The thing is that the buffalo bullshit was an attempt to invalidate gender identity issues and your subsequent denial of the existance of those issues bore that out. That's a completely different argument from "it's unnecessary."

Brendan
11-07-2006, 02:59 PM
It should be noted that as far as I can tell, this isn't being legislated. It's simply a regulatory body changing some of their requirements for an already established procedure.

:lol:

Every now and then I think the Libertarians might have a point.

Brendan
11-07-2006, 03:02 PM
The thing is that the buffalo bullshit was an attempt to invalidate gender identity issues and your subsequent denial of the existance of those issues bore that out. That's a completely different argument from "it's unnecessary."

You just don't like buffalo. Admit it.

Queen of the Ban Age
11-07-2006, 03:02 PM
Fair enough, but I fail to see how this law could do that. If someone is secure in their own identity, why do they need this law? If they aren't, is a law going to help? Laws are intended to protect our rights, not grant us personal affirmation. I don't need a law telling me that it's okay to read comics. Now, if someone should pass a law saying it is illegal to read comics, then we got a fight.

Hey, if it's going to allow people to do something that they want to do, it's all good. And that's why I'm all for it. It's allowing them to do things that they couldn't do previously.

If it doesn't hurt someone else, I really don't have a problem with most things. Except being a furry, because that's just gross.

xyzzy
11-07-2006, 03:03 PM
You just don't like buffalo. Admit it.

They taste okay.

Brendan
11-07-2006, 03:06 PM
If it doesn't hurt someone else, I really don't have a problem with most things. Except being a furry, because that's just gross.

To paraphrase Jefferson: If it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg, then it's none of the government's business. If transgendered folks were being abused or mistreated in some way, then perhaps some legislation was necesarry. But I fail to see how changing a line on a birth certificate is going to accomplish much. This seems more like a symbolic move than anything.

Furries are gross, but if if they are consenting adults doing whatever they do in the privacy of their own home, then it's nothing for the government to legislate one way or the other.

Ben
11-07-2006, 03:06 PM
The buffalo bit wasn't a hit. A hamfisted attempt at humor that didn't work. You do know that ham is made from pigs, not buffalo, right? :roll:

Brendan
11-07-2006, 03:07 PM
You do know that ham is made from pigs, not buffalo, right? :roll:

I don't eat pig, so I'll take your word for it.

Queen of the Ban Age
11-07-2006, 03:12 PM
To paraphrase Jefferson: If it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg, then it's none of the government's business. If transgendered folks were being abused or mistreated in some way, then perhaps some legislation was necesarry. But I fail to see how changing a line on a birth certificate is going to accomplish much. This seems more like a symbolic move than anything.

Furries are gross, but if if they are consenting adults doing whatever they do in the privacy of their own home, then it's nothing for the government to legislate one way or the other.

Like xyzzy said, it's more a regulatory change than something in the legislature. It's just being made a big deal because of who it's affecting. Let 'em change it if they want to.

I'm probably a furry-ist because of my time on Something Awful. As long as they don't yiff near me, I'm cool.

Ben Weldon
11-07-2006, 03:14 PM
To paraphrase Jefferson: If it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg, then it's none of the government's business. If transgendered folks were being abused or mistreated in some way, then perhaps some legislation was necesarry. But I fail to see how changing a line on a birth certificate is going to accomplish much. This seems more like a symbolic move than anything.

Furries are gross, but if if they are consenting adults doing whatever they do in the privacy of their own home, then it's nothing for the government to legislate one way or the other.

If every day from now on you where referd to as "She" wouldn't you consider that mistreatment? What if you tried to do something about it and where considered at worst a freek and at best a joke?