Are Republicans going to try and ban fertility clinics?

[Thudpucker]

I was just listening to a pro-embryo ad on NPR on the way to work, where a Republican Senator was talking about the need to protect embryos. His exact words were "we can not sacrifice one group of Americans for the benifit of another grouop of Americans".

I was just wondering where this is leading. If the destruction of embryos is what they are trying to stop then isn't the next step on the agenda a ban on fertility clinics all together? A ban on artificial creation of embryos?

Are Republicans (not all but the Bush supporters) against surrogate mothers too? When the implantation occurs doesn't the Doctor normally use multiple embryos to increase the odds of one taking? According to the logic that is the murder of several lives for the benifit of one life (the embryo that actually takes) isn't it? Do those Republicans feel that Surrogate families are murderers who must be stopped?

[Wastrel]

yes, right after they mug your grandmother for her milkmoney.

[Shane W]

Instead of republicans, use the word "people" it's more incusive and doesn't seperate the fact that there are morons on both sides. I'm trying to do that myself now.



I was just listening to a pro-embryo ad on NPR on the way to work, where a Republican Senator was talking about the need to protect embryos. His exact words were "we can not sacrifice one group of Americans for the benifit of another grouop of Americans".

I was just wondering where this is leading. If the destruction of embryos is what they are trying to stop then isn't the next step on the agenda a ban on fertility clinics all together? A ban on artificial creation of embryos?

Are Republicans (not all but the Bush supporters) against surrogate mothers too? When the implantation occurs doesn't the Doctor normally use multiple embryos to increase the odds of one taking? According to the logic that is the murder of several lives for the benifit of one life (the embryo that actually takes) isn't it? Do those Republicans feel that Surrogate families are murderers who must be stopped?

[Gregory]

The recent use of Snowflake Babies (babies born from embryos no longer needed by the mother) as a political tool suggests they support artificial insemination.

[Ray G.]

I don't think that's on their agenda, no.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

I'm very tired, and can't follow the logic of this. Why would conservatives ever wish to deny a woman every opportunity to conceive a child if she so desired?

[Thommy Melanson]

His exact words were "we can not sacrifice one group of Americans for the benefit of another group of Americans".

Aren't our military one group of Americans?

We're sacrificing them for the benefit of the GOP, which is another group of Americans.

[Ray G.]

I'm very tired, and can't follow the logic of this. Why would conservatives ever wish to deny a woman every opportunity to conceive a child if she so desired?

Because they are teh evil!

[greg donovan]

I'm very tired, and can't follow the logic of this. Why would conservatives ever wish to deny a woman every opportunity to conceive a child if she so desired?


the hospital my wife works at was almost purchased by Catholic Health Initiatives. they would have stopped offering birth control and would have eliminated any form of infertility treatments. the deal fell through mainly becuse of those two points. if that group was in more control i would not have my two wonderfull children.

apparently if god wanted us to have children we wouldnt have needed medical help.

[Shane W]

the hospital my wife works at was almost purchased by Catholic Health Initiatives. they would have stopped offering birth control and would have eliminated any form of infertility treatments. the deal fell through mainly becuse of those two points. if that group was in more control i would not have my two wonderfull children.

apparently if god wanted us to have children we wouldnt have needed medical help.

If it were up to god alone, you'd probably already be dead.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

I don't understand, Ray. I don't know why it's okay to kill fetuses and not okay to kill Soviet spies and murderers. And I don't understand what this argument is about. Please help me.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

the hospital my wife works at was almost purchased by Catholic Health Initiatives. they would have stopped offering birth control and would have eliminated any form of infertility treatments. the deal fell through mainly becuse of those two points. if that group was in more control i would not have my two wonderfull children.

apparently if god wanted us to have children we wouldnt have needed medical help.

I've never heard of that. Are they Christian Scientists? The people that refuse medical treatment?

[Ray G.]

I don't understand, Ray. I don't know why it's okay to kill fetuses and not okay to kill Soviet spies and murderers. And I don't understand what this argument is about. Please help me.

It's an issue I have a hard time wrapping my mind around too. And I really dislike the attempts by radicals to try to boil it down to a simplistic issue like "Republicans hate women" or "Republicans want disabled people to suffer".

[Thommy Melanson]

apparently if god wanted us to have children we wouldnt have needed medical help.

And that's apparently the official Catholic line.

The channels right next to G4 on my cable system are all religious stations, and one night I watched as this Catholic priest read queries from viewers.

One was someone who was having trouble conceiving, and they asked the priest if artificial insemination is a sin.

The priest said emphatically yes! Moreso, he said if they were meant to conceive they would have done so by now the natural way. He said maybe it was God's plan for them to adopt a child that needed a loving home.

The truly frightening thing about all of this is not what the priest said, but that there are people that live their life according to these loony, arbitrary declarations.

The Catholic church recently officially rescinded the concept of "Purgatory". Shouldn't that have been a shrieking wake-up call to all Catholics that their entire faith is completely made-up bullshit?

[Thudpucker]

The recent use of Snowflake Babies (babies born from embryos no longer needed by the mother) as a political tool suggests they support artificial insemination.

See, I thought that too. But for every 'snowflake baby' there are several more embryos that are destroyed.

It seems like anyone who wouldn't want an embryo destroyed for medical reasons wouldn't want it destroyed for any medical reason though, right?

[Thudpucker]

I'm very tired, and can't follow the logic of this. Why would conservatives ever wish to deny a woman every opportunity to conceive a child if she so desired?

Because it may, and does often, involve the destruction of embryos. Is it worth a few live births if you also get several dead embryos (assuming you believe that all embryos are life)?

[Gregory]

The truly frightening thing about all of this is not what the priest said, but there are people that live their life according to these loony, arbitrary declarations.

Last week, I tuned into the evangelical Dr. Moehler program, and his guest host was asked a question about divorce.

Female Caller: We've had trouble with our marriage for 20 years. I've tried counseling, I've tried talking to him, I've tried porayer. It's just not a good marriage. When does the Bible say we can stop trying and end it?

Host: When he's dead.

I shit you not.

But back to the point of the thread, my dad, a fundamentalist Baptist, has a similar distrust of science in all regards. He truly belives all science is an attempt to debunk God or prove one is smarter than He. It's a calling based on ego to him. I tried to argue. I pointed out how much science has kept us alive with medicine, but he tuned me out.

[Thudpucker]

And I don't understand what this argument is about. Please help me.

What I am wondering is why is the issue wether to destroy unused embryos or use them for other medical purposes? Shouldn't the issue really be wether to make embryos artificially at all?

If it's wrong to create and destroy human life for one purpose (stem cell harvest) how can it be right to create and destroy human life for another purpose (the creation of some babies)

[Thommy Melanson]

But back to the point of the thread, my dad, a fundamentalist Baptist, has a similar distrust of science in all regards. He truly belives all science is an attempt to debunk God or prove one is smarter than He. It's a calling based on ego to him. I tried to argue. I pointed out how much science has kept us alive with medicine, but he tuned me out.

And that's the sad and frightening thing about religious people, our president among them.

Their way of thinking belongs in the Dark Ages. It's archaic and simplistic - harkening back to a time when that great fireball in the sky was something to be afraid of and human sacrifices were made to appease it.

Evolution is occurring even now.

The earth is billions of years old. Far, far, far older than just 6,000 years.

There were dinosaurs and millions of different species lonnnnnnnnng before man appeared.

We are in fact, descended from apes. We share 99.4% of our genetic makeup with them. Just look at their mannerisms and social interactions as well.

If not for science and medical innovations, most people alive today wouldn't be.

[greg donovan]

I've never heard of that. Are they Christian Scientists? The people that refuse medical treatment?

nope. they just follow the doctrines of the catholic church very closely.

and i did some poking around and while they will not fund anything related to birth control they do have something in place for fertility but they are pretty vague about what it would involve.

my wife knows a lot more about this than i do so i will talk to her about this over the weekend.

[Thudpucker]

Instead of republicans, use the word "people" it's more incusive and doesn't seperate the fact that there are morons on both sides. I'm trying to do that myself now.

I suppose there are Democrates who are against stem cell research. I'm just not sure who any of them are, and I doubt the Democratic Party will make it an election issue to support the ban of abortion, medical research, fertility clinics, ect.

A pig could grow wings and fly, true, but I find it unlikely. It's the Republicans who will hinder medical science, not the Democrates.

[Wastrel]

Last week, I tuned into the evangelical Dr. Moehler program, and his guest host was asked a question about divorce.

Female Caller: We've had trouble with our marriage for 20 years. I've tried counseling, I've tried talking to him, I've tried porayer. It's just not a good marriage. When does the Bible say we can stop trying and end it?

Host: When he's dead.

I shit you not.

But back to the point of the thread, my dad, a fundamentalist Baptist, has a similar distrust of science in all regards. He truly belives all science is an attempt to debunk God or prove one is smarter than He. It's a calling based on ego to him. I tried to argue. I pointed out how much science has kept us alive with medicine, but he tuned me out.
well, did she say she took him for better or worse till death do them part?

[RickLM]

I don't understand, Ray. I don't know why it's okay to kill fetuses and not okay to kill Soviet spies and murderers. And I don't understand what this argument is about. Please help me.


Lots of people think it is okay to kill fetuses. Most of them hesitate to explain why, choosing instead to attack anyone who disagrees with them.

[Gregory]

well, did she say she took him for better or worse till death do them part?

Yes, and as a divorced person, that oath loses value when one person is the better and one is the worse. Marriage isn't an license to be a shit to someone and then expect sex and food later that same day. Maybe for those who believe in subservient spouses ...

[Thudpucker]

Lots of people think it is okay to kill fetuses. Most of them hesitate to explain why, choosing instead to attack anyone who disagrees with them.

Is an embryo a fetus?

And you seem to be the one hesitating to answer. Are people who are against the destruction of embryos against fertility clinics and artificial embryo growth all together?

What is the difference between an embryo destroyed because it wasn't used by the donor and one destroyed for stem cell research? A dead 'embryo American' is still dead right?

[Brad N.]

Is an embryo a fetus?

And you seem to be the one hesitating to answer. Are people who are against the destruction of embryos against fertility clinics and artificial embryo growth all together?

What is the difference between an embryo destroyed because it wasn't used by the donor and one destroyed for stem cell research? A dead 'embryo American' is still dead right?

Thud, you're hitting the nail on the head here. I watched that douchebag supreme Brownback on the floor the other day with pie charts and a chart showing an egg and an eagle and talking about embryos and just looking like a complete fuckstick. The preznit and all the rest of the anti-science fools are making this big stink about not giving more money to fund embryonic stem cell research. Research done with frozen LEFT OVER embryos donated by the donors WITH THEIR CONSENT from invetro clinics. Now, these are all embryos that would indeed be thrown away anyway. So instead they make the argument that by allowing research to continue it will destroy innocent human life, but by not funding it these innocent human lives are being thrown in the trash anyway. It's nothing more than another bullshit PR move that the shrub is making to the goofballs like Falwell and Dobson. It doesn't make it any better and to be honest this issue really makes me ill to see the uninformed idiots spouting off about the destruction of human life.

[The Clone Ranger]

Last week, I tuned into the evangelical Dr. Moehler program, and his guest host was asked a question about divorce.

Female Caller: We've had trouble with our marriage for 20 years. I've tried counseling, I've tried talking to him, I've tried porayer. It's just not a good marriage. When does the Bible say we can stop trying and end it?

Host: When he's dead.



So then they are recommending that she kill him, correct?

[Gregory]

So then they are recommending that she kill him, correct?

He went on to say she needs to pray more, love him more, and most important, submit herself to him more. He noted that the man could end the marriage but not her.

[Foolish Mortal]

I don't understand, Ray. I don't know why it's okay to kill fetuses and not okay to kill Soviet spies and murderers. And I don't understand what this argument is about. Please help me.
Thudpucker's question is pretty clear. But you and Ray seem to be dodging it.

If Conservative Republicans (And some conservative Democrats) say it's morally wrong to destroy embryos for medical science, then why is it "okay" to destroy them for a medical procedure?

[greg donovan]

He went on to say she needs to pray more, love him more, and most important, submit herself to him more. He noted that the man could end the marriage but not her.

if there were a whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa???? emoticon here is where i would use it.

[Juggernaut]

I'm very tired, and can't follow the logic of this. Why would conservatives ever wish to deny a woman every opportunity to conceive a child if she so desired?


Because it probably clashes with the views of the christian coalition.

[Thudpucker]

I don't think we are going to get a Bush supporter to answer this one.

[Juggernaut]

I don't think we are going to get a Bush supporter to answer this one.


Hard to find one on the internet since technology is the TOOL OF THE DEVIL.

[Ray G.]

I don't think we are going to get a devoutly pro-life Bush supporter to answer this one.

Fixed.

How should I answer it? I don't approve of the policy.

[Shane W]

I suppose there are Democrates who are against stem cell research. I'm just not sure who any of them are, and I doubt the Democratic Party will make it an election issue to support the ban of abortion, medical research, fertility clinics, ect.

A pig could grow wings and fly, true, but I find it unlikely. It's the Republicans who will hinder medical science, not the Democrates.

Don't blind yourself. If the democrats will think it will win votes, they'd sell their children. Look what's going on under a democrat in Louisiana right now.

[Taxman]

Are Republicans going to try and ban fertility clinics?I do not believe so. It seems that most who take advantage of these facilities are of an affluent class. Government and political movements tend to steer clear of these groups for the most part because it is more efficient to focus on groups that lack the means to put up a strong defense.

[Thudpucker]

Don't blind yourself. If the democrats will think it will win votes, they'd sell their children. Look what's going on under a democrat in Louisiana right now.

For a political party change it's stance, as a majority, on an issue so fundamental to it's base? Again, that's like asking pigs to grow wings. They might do it, sure, but is it likely?

That's not really the thing I'm wondering about though. It's the hypocracy of this whole arguement that has me wondering. If the Republicans (the party who actually is doing this) protect embryos from stem cell research then how can they not protect them from all research and procedures?

Either they are hypocrates or they are going to go after fertility clinics as a whole next.

[Taxman]

I'm very tired, and can't follow the logic of this. Why would conservatives ever wish to deny a woman every opportunity to conceive a child if she so desired?I doubt you are being serious. Fertility clinics employ processes that produce multiple embryos. The majority of these embryos are ultimately destroyed, perhaps thousands a year. If one believes that an embryo is life, and the destruction of said embryo is murder, they cannot possibly justify tolerating these processes.

[Taxman]

Don't blind yourself. If the democrats will think it will win votes, they'd sell their children. Look what's going on under a democrat in Louisiana right now.Because all Democrats are exactly the same.

[Thudpucker]

I do not believe so. It seems that most who take advantage of these facilities are of an affluent class. Government and political movements tend to steer clear of these groups for the most part because it is more efficient to focus on groups that lack the means to put up a strong defense.

Very true. But many affluent people seem to want advances in stem cell research. It's going to be interesting to see how that plays out.

[RebootedCorpse]

This is an issue that people will never come to consensus on. That's why leaving it up to individual conscience makes sense.

[Shane W]

Because all Democrats are exactly the same.

Apparently all republicans are..

[Taxman]

Very true. But many affluent people seem to want advances in stem cell research. It's going to be interesting to see how that plays out.It's different with the clinics though because they are already there. There isn't really a legitimate effort to to stop stem cell research, just to stop government funding of it.

[Thudpucker]

Apparently all republicans are..

You still are not getting it. Parties take stances. This is a stance that the Republican Party is taking on this issue. Not sure what part of that loses you, if you explain what you don't get I'll try and break it down further for you.

[Shane W]

You still are not getting it. Parties take stances. This is a stance that the Republican Party is taking on this issue. Not sure what part of that loses you, if you explain what you don't get I'll try and break it down further for you.

Yes, please point out where they have taken this stance of being against fertility and surrogate mothers.

[Thudpucker]

Yes, please point out where they have taken this stance of being against fertility and surrogate mothers.

Well, that's what I was wondering about and can't get an answer on. If they are fighting to protect embryo rights it has to lead to a stance against embryo slaughter in fertility clinics. If they believe that an embryo is life than fertility clinics are slaughter houses and must be stopped. How can they not be?

[Shane W]

Well, that's what I was wondering about and can't get an answer on. If they are fighting to protect embryo rights it has to lead to a stance against embryo slaughter in fertility clinics. If they believe that an embryo is life than fertility clinics are slaughter houses and must be stopped. How can they not be?

So your proof to back up this idea is your own question?

Let me ask you a loaded question in reverse. Democrats want to raise minimum wage, right? So it just makes sense that they want to raise it to $100.00 per hour, right?

[MattJohnson]

So your proof to back up this idea is your own question?

Let me ask you a loaded question in reverse. Democrats want to raise minimum wage, right? So it just makes sense that they want to raise it to $100.00 per hour, right?

I don't understand you, sir.

[Shane W]

I don't understand you, sir.

Alas, neither do I.. neither do I..

[Thudpucker]

So your proof to back up this idea is your own question?

Let me ask you a loaded question in reverse. Democrats want to raise minimum wage, right? So it just makes sense that they want to raise it to $100.00 per hour, right?

Proof? ok... how odd.

But how is my question loaded? It's as straight forward as can be. There are Republicans actively seeking to protect embryos, give them a right to life. But how can they do that and not protect the embryo's right to life completely?

If they say no to stem cell research but yes to fertility clinics disposing of them as medical waste.... how does that make any kind of sense?

[Shane W]

Proof? ok... how odd.

But how is my question loaded? It's as straight forward as can be. There are Republicans actively seeking to protect embryos, give them a right to life. But how can they do that and not protect the embryo's right to life completely?

If they say no to stem cell research but yes to fertility clinics disposing of them as medical waste how does that make any kind of sense?

Well, they don't say yes to the disposal, most want them to stay frozen until a time someone may want it installed.

[J. R. Scherer]

Well, they don't say yes to the disposal, most want them to stay frozen until a time someone may want it installed.
But when they are 'installed' they generally use multiple embryos to ensure a greater chance of pregnancy. Chances are, only one, or none of the embryos will 'install' and result in pregnancy. That means those embryos that don't 'install' will die. Isn't that what these people are trying to prevent by opposing stem cell research? If so, then why don't they oppose these fertility techniques as well?

[Thudpucker]

Well, they don't say yes to the disposal, most want them to stay frozen until a time someone may want it installed.

That makes sense.

But if an embryo is granted protected status as a human life won't other issues factor in? The risk of losing embryo life in the manufacturing stages or in the process of storage? The procedure of injecting multiple embryos into a surrogate mother to increase the odds of one taking (and thus several dying)?

I'm not trying to be devicive or argue, really. I honestly don't see how fertility clinics can continue to function in a Country where embryos are granted a right to life. Because there will always be a significant loss of embryo life during the operations of one.

[Shane W]

But when they are 'installed' they generally use multiple embryos to ensure a greater chance of pregnancy. Chances are, only one, or none of the embryos will 'install' and result in pregnancy. That means those embryos that don't 'install' will die. Isn't that what these people are trying to prevent by opposing stem cell research? If so, then why don't they oppose these fertility techniques as well?

no, because then the decision was up to god. It fits nicely.

[Thudpucker]

no, because then the decision was up to god. It fits nicely.

But God is the one who made it so that the couple couldn't concieve naturally. The procedure is a defiance of the will of God so I don't think they can use the God defence there.

[Smokinblues]

But God is the one who made it so that the couple couldn't concieve naturally. The procedure is a defiance of the will of God so I don't think they can use the God defence there.

defense.

I'm waiting for you to find a way to blame Israel for all of this.

[J. R. Scherer]

no, because then the decision was up to god. It fits nicely.
I can see that being the case within the religious-types' mindset.

[Thudpucker]

defense.

I'm waiting for you to find a way to blame Israel for all of this.

I have no natural sense of how to spell :Oops:

[Shane W]

But God is the one who made it so that the couple couldn't concieve naturally. The procedure is a defiance of the will of God so I don't think they can use the God defence there.

They use it whenever convenient.

[J. R. Scherer]

They use it whenever convenient.
Exactly.

[NATE!]

defense.


Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, Thudpucker would certainly want you to believe that Republicans don't want people to be fertile. And he makes a good case. Hell, I almost felt pity myself! But, ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/2471/033005chewbacca2cs5.jpg

Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm an independent defending the Republican base, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, [approaches and softens] does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests.

[NATE!]

Oh. And just to piss someone off:

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/2047/stemcellsxy0.jpg

:D

[Jamie Coville]

I'm waiting for you to find a way to blame Israel for all of this.

They murdered Jesus, they are responsible for all of this!

Had they left him alone, he would have been proven a crackpot fraud and Bush wouldn't be worshiping him today!

He'd be banning pork or something.

[Thudpucker]

Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, Thudpucker would certainly want you to believe that Republicans don't want people to be fertile. And he makes a good case. Hell, I almost felt pity myself! But, ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/2471/033005chewbacca2cs5.jpg

Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm an independent defending the Republican base, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, [approaches and softens] does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests.

:rofl: I don't get it but it's still awesome!

[Foolish Mortal]

defense.

I'm waiting for you to find a way to blame Israel for all of this.
I guarantee you if Stem Cells were holding an Israeli soldier hostage, they'd bomb the shit outta the Stem Cells damn quick!

[mario]

Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense!

because Ewok whores are cheap(4 for the price of 1), duh!
That makes perfect sense