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View Full Version : Who do you think is the greatest baseball player of all time?



Brian Defferding
05-22-2006, 01:50 PM
Reading about Bonds in the paper, as well as Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron; it got me to thinking - who do people really feel is the greatest baseball player of all time?

How would one measure it? By numbers, personality, heart? Maybe all three?

I'd have to say Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Mickey Mantle were some of the greatest in the game. If one counted in current players, I also think Randy Johnson and Roger Clemens are some of the best.

Happy Time Harry
05-22-2006, 01:51 PM
Willie Mays. Or at least that's what Willie Mays would tell you.

Corey A.
05-22-2006, 01:53 PM
Derek Jeter & he has all sorts of rings to prove it

Brian Defferding
05-22-2006, 01:55 PM
Derek Jeter & he has all sorts of rings to prove it
DIE!

Shane W
05-22-2006, 01:55 PM
Ruth, Cobb, or Williams. Actually Stan Musial may be the most under-rated player of all time.

And with Pujols, we are seriously watching one of the greats unfold before us.

Brian Defferding
05-22-2006, 01:56 PM
Ruth, Cobb, or Williams. Actually Stan Musial may be the most under-rated player of all time.

And with Pujols, we are seriously watching one of the greats unfold before us.
Let's just hope he stays clean.

Adam Witt
05-22-2006, 01:56 PM
Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Ty Cobb, Kirby Puckett.

Shane W
05-22-2006, 01:57 PM
Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Ty Cobb, Kirby Puckett.

No.

YouStayClassy
05-22-2006, 01:58 PM
Jackie Robinson.

Adam Witt
05-22-2006, 01:58 PM
No.

Okay. :(

Corey A.
05-22-2006, 01:59 PM
DIE!

I'm not a Yakees fan but there's no denying thats he's done a lot in a very short career span. I'm sure there are more in his future. So that's why I chose him plus I don't think he's a big fucking cheater.

King of Mars
05-22-2006, 02:00 PM
Honestly, as much as it pains me to say it...I think when his career is over, Alex Rodriguez will be recognized as the greatest player ever. No disrespect to the players of yesteryear...but today's players really are the best of all time. So much more mechanically sound and better conditioned than the players of old...and A-Rod is probably the best of this era. The guy does it all (except hit in the post-season but I suspect he'll correct that problem at some point).

Shane W
05-22-2006, 02:00 PM
Derek Jeter & he has all sorts of rings to prove it

Yogi Berra has more.

Jeter may be the most over-rated player ever.

Brian Defferding
05-22-2006, 02:02 PM
I'm not a Yakees fan but there's no denying thats he's done a lot in a very short career span. I'm sure there are more in his future. So that's why I chose him plus I don't think he's a big fucking cheater.
True, true. I just don't like him. Maybe it's the commercials, maybe it's the press attention he gets...I don't know. Just something about him makes me wanna punch the tv. :)

pornbot2.5
05-22-2006, 02:02 PM
Ruth, no one else was a great pitcher, then became an offensive juggernaut. And as one fan's sign said, "Ruth did it on hot dogs and beer".

Shane W
05-22-2006, 02:04 PM
Okay. :(

It's okay, 3/4 isn't bad.

Brad N.
05-22-2006, 02:04 PM
Ted Williams is the correct answer. Anything else is plain wrong. :)

That said here is my top ten list...

10. Stan Musial
9. Harmon Killebrew
8. Nolan Ryan
7. Wille Mays
6. Ty Cobb
5. Hank Aaron
4. Lou Gherig
3. Babe Ruth
2. Mickey Mantle
1. Ted Williams

Brian Defferding
05-22-2006, 02:05 PM
Honestly, as much as it pains me to say it...I think when his career is over, Alex Rodriguez will be recognized as the greatest player ever. No disrespect to the players of yesteryear...but today's players really are the best of all time. So much more mechanically sound and better conditioned than the players of old...and A-Rod is probably the best of this era. The guy does it all (except hit in the post-season but I suspect he'll correct that problem at some point).

He certainly is one hell of an all-around player. He's got some more years ahead of him so we'll see what he does with it.

Little trivia fact: when he was in the minors he played for my hometown team, the (now-defunct) Appleton Foxes.

Shane W
05-22-2006, 02:05 PM
Ted Williams is the correct answer. Anything else is plain wrong. :)

That said here is my top ten list...

10. Stan Musiel
9. Harmon Killebrew
8. Nolan Ryan
7. Wille Mays
6. Ty Cobb
5. Hank Aaron
4. Lou Gherig
3. Babe Ruth
2. Mickey Mantle
1. Ted Williams

I'm still trying to figure out how Stan was left off the all-century team

Brad N.
05-22-2006, 02:06 PM
I'm still trying to figure out how Stan was left off the all-century team


I agree.

Bill!
05-22-2006, 02:29 PM
The best lived and played long ago. Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Ty Cobb. For the more modern era, no one really matches Ted Williams and Sandy Koufax.

Johnny Vander Meer also deserves honorable mention as the only player in history to pitch back to back no hitters.

Binx
05-22-2006, 02:57 PM
I'm not a Yakees fan but there's no denying thats he's done a lot in a very short career span. I'm sure there are more in his future. So that's why I chose him plus I don't think he's a big fucking cheater.
He has done a lot, but then so had Griffey, Jr. at a young age, and look what happened to him. SO MANY things can go wrong. There is just no way you can rank someone with so much baseball in front of him as one of the all time greats.

Anyway, my vote is is Ted fucking ballgame Williams. Not a great heart, except when it came to the game.

changingshades
05-22-2006, 03:41 PM
Nolan Ryan.

Foolish Mortal
05-22-2006, 03:49 PM
Ted Williams is the correct answer. Anything else is plain wrong. :)

That said here is my top ten list...

10. Stan Musial
9. Harmon Killebrew
8. Nolan Ryan
7. Wille Mays
6. Ty Cobb
5. Hank Aaron
4. Lou Gherig
3. Babe Ruth
2. Mickey Mantle
1. Ted Williams

Great list. I agree with most of it, except I'd replace Nolan Ryan with Satchel Paige.

Adam Witt
05-22-2006, 03:52 PM
Ted Williams! How the fuck could I forget Ted Williams?

Your Pal, Carl
05-22-2006, 03:58 PM
baseball has changed so much over time that it's nearly impossible to determine who is the best of "all-time". Each era is unique. The meaning of statistics has changed from the early 1900s and the specialization of each position makes it difficult to compare position players vs. pitching and relative importance. How do you compare Cy Young to Roger Clemens without using their stats (which isn't fair to either players since pitching is so different)? You can compare relative importance to one's era and in that arguement, Ruth clearly wins.

Blandy vs Terrorism
05-22-2006, 04:01 PM
Beys...bahl?

Sully7625
05-22-2006, 04:04 PM
True, true. I just don't like him. Maybe it's the commercials, maybe it's the press attention he gets...I don't know. Just something about him makes me wanna punch the tv. :)

Weird I get the same feeling as well.

Sully7625
05-22-2006, 04:07 PM
I'm not saying he is the best ever, but Bob Gibson is one of the greatest pitchers of all time.

Mick
05-22-2006, 04:16 PM
No love for Hank Aaron? You wanna talk a combination of offense and defense: 3 Gold Gloves in right field, 22 All-Star appearances, NL MVP of 1957, and of course, the freakin' home run record. Not to mention the career leader in RBI, total bases, and extra bases. All at 6'0", 190.

I have love for all of the big-time players from yesteryear-- the point made about Ruth being both a pitcher and a great hitter is very pertinent-- but I wonder what the overall talent was like as compared to now. Not in terms of speed, strength, etc., because that all clearly has changed. But more in the sense of how today, the entire league is filled with amazing players who are pursued doggedly by professional scouts and given huge contracts. Whereas way back when, there wasn't a huge incentive to play ball, and thus the league may not have been as packed with talent.

If Ruth was hitting a bunch off of the early-days' equivalent of Paul Byrd, I'm not so sure it's as impressive.

Shane W
05-22-2006, 04:22 PM
No love for Hank Aaron? You wanna talk a combination of offense and defense: 3 Gold Gloves in right field, 22 All-Star appearances, NL MVP of 1957, and of course, the freakin' home run record. Not to mention the career leader in RBI, total bases, and extra bases. All at 6'0", 190.

I have love for all of the big-time players from yesteryear-- the point made about Ruth being both a pitcher and a great hitter is very pertinent-- but I wonder what the overall talent was like as compared to now. Not in terms of speed, strength, etc., because that all clearly has changed. But more in the sense of how today, the entire league is filled with amazing players who are pursued doggedly by professional scouts and given huge contracts. Whereas way back when, there wasn't a huge incentive to play ball, and thus the league may not have been as packed with talent.

If Ruth was hitting a bunch off of the early-days' equivalent of Paul Byrd, I'm not so sure it's as impressive.

Well, back then these guys only had 1 year contracts, which means that every year they were playing for their lives. Free agency didn't exist, so you were limited to what the club offered you.

When you look to what Ruth did compared to his peers, it's so far and above everyone.

Bill!
05-22-2006, 04:42 PM
No love for Hank Aaron? You wanna talk a combination of offense and defense: 3 Gold Gloves in right field, 22 All-Star appearances, NL MVP of 1957, and of course, the freakin' home run record. Not to mention the career leader in RBI, total bases, and extra bases. All at 6'0", 190.

I have love for all of the big-time players from yesteryear-- the point made about Ruth being both a pitcher and a great hitter is very pertinent-- but I wonder what the overall talent was like as compared to now. Not in terms of speed, strength, etc., because that all clearly has changed. But more in the sense of how today, the entire league is filled with amazing players who are pursued doggedly by professional scouts and given huge contracts. Whereas way back when, there wasn't a huge incentive to play ball, and thus the league may not have been as packed with talent.

If Ruth was hitting a bunch off of the early-days' equivalent of Paul Byrd, I'm not so sure it's as impressive.

There were a lot of super quality players back in the earlier eras of ball. Both batters and pitchers. Plus, remember with a lot of these pitchers, they had great numbers often pitching complete games every other day. There was really no such thing as the relief pitcher.

Adam Beranek
05-22-2006, 05:39 PM
Rickey Henderson!

Dennis K
05-22-2006, 05:50 PM
Ty Cobb

RyanP
05-22-2006, 05:55 PM
Bob Ueker.

ty gorton
05-22-2006, 06:07 PM
a kid in a field with an imaginary ball and bat, slugging 'em out of there.

everything else is just advertising $.

RickM
05-22-2006, 06:14 PM
Willie Mays was the best defensive player, a great slugger, and a base stealer, all in the same body. I would say he is the most talented player ever, if that's what we're measuring.

WillieLee
05-22-2006, 06:45 PM
Honestly, as much as it pains me to say it...I think when his career is over, Alex Rodriguez will be recognized as the greatest player ever. No disrespect to the players of yesteryear...but today's players really are the best of all time. So much more mechanically sound and better conditioned than the players of old...and A-Rod is probably the best of this era. The guy does it all (except hit in the post-season but I suspect he'll correct that problem at some point).

If A-Rod is so great why can't he hit 400? Especially in an era where the pitchers can't use the spit ball or cutting.

King of Mars
05-22-2006, 06:51 PM
If A-Rod is so great why can't he hit 400? Especially in an era where the pitchers can't use the spit ball or cutting.Because he's facing a higher caliber of pitching and defense than the players of yesteryear did. Also, you're dreaming if you think pitchers of today don't still cheat to gain a competitive advantage.

Smokinblues
05-22-2006, 06:54 PM
I don't think Hank Aaron gets enough credit.

Smokinblues
05-22-2006, 06:55 PM
Because he's facing a higher caliber of pitching and defense than the players of yesteryear did. Also, you're dreaming if you think pitchers of today don't still cheat to gain a competitive advantage.

higher caliber of pitching? when all anybody talks about is how diluted the pitching is these days?

Bill!
05-22-2006, 06:55 PM
Because he's facing a higher caliber of pitching and defense than the players of yesteryear did. Also, you're dreaming if you think pitchers of today don't still cheat to gain a competitive advantage.

Dude, the pitchers of the early eras were fucking amazing, despite pitching usually every other day or with only two days rest, pitching complete games. There is no doubt today's pitchers are also amazing, but they are nothing compared to their predecessors.

bstie1198
05-22-2006, 07:02 PM
I'd have to go with Ruth based on how much he dominated the game when he was playing. The fact that the first year he hit over 50 homers, no other TEAM hit more than 45 is just insane. He became the all-time home run leader when he his his 170th or something like that. And all those offensive numbers are after a few years of being one of the best pitchers in the game and only playing every few games.

I wish there was a way to find out what Ted Williams would have been able to do without missing five seasons to two active tours of military duty during his prime years. He didn't dominate the rest of baseball the way Ruth did, but I do buy into the "greatest hitter that ever lived" claim...

King of Mars
05-22-2006, 07:03 PM
Dude, the pitchers of the early eras were fucking amazing, despite pitching usually every other day or with only two days rest, pitching complete games. There is no doubt today's pitchers are also amazing, but they are nothing compared to their predecessors.No. That's a fallacy. They were able to pitch "better" because they were facing mechanically inferior hitters (relatively speaking) that were easier to get out. This prevented a lot of wear and tear on their arms and allowed them to go deeper into games and pitch more often. Sure, the true greats, the guys that were ahead of their time in terms of hitting mechanics, were able to wear them out but, in general, they had a much easier go of it than today's pitchers. Plus, they were pitching from a higher mound and didn't have to deal with things like astro turf, juiced balls, and juiced players.

King of Mars
05-22-2006, 07:08 PM
higher caliber of pitching? when all anybody talks about is how diluted the pitching is these days?In terms of pure "stuff", yeah, the modern pitcher is a helluva lot better than the pitchers of old. Plus, A-Rod plays in an era when teams can throw reliever after reliever at a hitter in the latter stages of games. That's something hitters didn't have to deal with back in the day.

Taxman
05-22-2006, 07:10 PM
I don't think Hank Aaron gets enough credit.It is really hard to quantify what the players who had to deal with the hard core racism really had to deal with. Many claim that Robinson was chosen to break the barrier as much for his character as his ability. The problems certainly didn't end with him either. I just recently heard that Clemente was banned from attending a championship celebration as late as 1971. Aaron may have had as tough a time as anyone during the period when he was approaching Ruth. Some of the race issue face today can really be brought into perspective.

mike black
05-22-2006, 07:10 PM
Ty Cobb, the Mick, Lou Gherig...

tdaniel
05-22-2006, 07:33 PM
Hank Aaron - flat out.
But you've got to toss in Mays, Ruth, Bonds, DiMagg, Williams, and yes indeedy, Albert is heading for this list faster than them all. And remember folks this is not popularity contest - right? So Cobb, Rose, Clemens, Unit, Feller, and let's not forget about Satchel Paige and Bob Gibson, Koufax, even Berra, Ernie Banks, Eddie Mathews, Jackie Robinson, Duke, Mickey, Walter Johnson, Cu Young and Robin Roberts. Just off the edges you have to throw in Whiffey Jr., Alex Rodriquez, and Big Mac - even Sosa should get a mention, but not much consideration.

TopFeeg
05-22-2006, 08:13 PM
Ted Williams is my favorite hitter of all time, and I think probably one of the best of all time. The guy fucking fought in WWII and then won the MVP the year after, and won the Triple Crown. He is a God among hitters.

And, if you are going by relative stats in the modern era, Pedro Martinez is the most dominant pitcher.

Doc Randy
05-22-2006, 08:20 PM
Honus Wagner: The Flying Dutchman!

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/2005/12/02/freeagent.landmarks/wagner.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Arena/5866/honus2.jpg

The Robot Lord of Tokyo
05-22-2006, 08:23 PM
Nolan Ryan for what he did in the past or Roger Clemens for what he has done in the now.

Doc Randy
05-22-2006, 08:24 PM
Ted Williams was a US Marine Corps fucking fighter pilot in not one, but two wars!
http://www.onlinesports.com/images/phf-aafv023.jpg
The man gave up four prime years to voluntarily serve his country with little fame, fanfare, or fortune.
He was a ntional treasure.

Jew Mafia
05-22-2006, 08:25 PM
Roy Hobbes, no question.

SteveFlack
05-22-2006, 08:25 PM
Jeter may be the most over-rated player ever.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

No, really, that was hysterical.

I'm sure he'll be the most "over-rated" first ballot hall of famer of all-time, then.

Oh, and as for the greatest of all time, it's Ruth, mostly for the fact that he was not only the most feared hitter of his time, but also a commanding pitcher. Perhaps one of the most complete players ever.

Honorable mentions to Hank Aaron, Josh Gibson, Joe Dimaggio, Lou Gehrig, Ted Williams, Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Joe Dimaggio, and, despite how lousy of human being he is, Pete Rose was a damn fine ball player.

-Steve!

anthony the ghost
05-22-2006, 08:27 PM
babe ruth. no question really.

anthony the ghost
05-22-2006, 08:29 PM
as for pitching, pedro martinez has put up some scary numbers and has pitched some of the best seasons ever pitched in a largely offensive era.

sonnylarue
05-22-2006, 08:34 PM
For all around players, Mays & Ruth.

For just hitters same two, but add Ted Williams,Gerhig, Mantle, DiMaggio, Musial, & Aaron.

Bob Gibson, is the greatest Pitcher , ever.

Bill!
05-22-2006, 09:04 PM
A thing to everyone praising Ruth as an all around player, that's really not true. Sure while he was in Boston he pitched wonderful, but as everyone seems to believe, pitching well back then was no big deal (which I still call bullshit on because most of the big time records were set back then and a lot of the most amazing batters came from the early eras). After he left though and played the majority of his career in New York, he was a pretty mediocre fielder with little ability on the basepaths, almost always being caught stealing more than swiped bags. He was a slugger, that's all. Don't make him up to be more than that.

That doesn't mean he didn't mean a hell of a lot to the game. He's just not an all around great.

Brewtown Andy
05-22-2006, 09:10 PM
Nolan Ryan for what he did in the past or Roger Clemens for what he has done in the now.http://www.cmarket.com/jedfoundation/img/photo-4f2ba9a891ca360104818707819ca3c2.jpg
???

TopFeeg
05-22-2006, 09:16 PM
http://www.cmarket.com/jedfoundation/img/photo-4f2ba9a891ca360104818707819ca3c2.jpg
???

Fuckin Robin Ventura!!!!

And comeon, Nolan pitched 7 no hitters, 5714 K's and was FEARED by some of the best hitters of his time.

sonnylarue
05-22-2006, 09:19 PM
A thing to everyone praising Ruth as an all around player, that's really not true. Sure while he was in Boston he pitched wonderful, but as everyone seems to believe, pitching well back then was no big deal (which I still call bullshit on because most of the big time records were set back then and a lot of the most amazing batters came from the early eras). After he left though and played the majority of his career in New York, he was a pretty mediocre fielder with little ability on the basepaths, almost always being caught stealing more than swiped bags. He was a slugger, that's all. Don't make him up to be more than that.

That doesn't mean he didn't mean a hell of a lot to the game. He's just not an all around great.

It IS his pitching, and the all time records he held as a pitcher, that lasted until the 1960's, that makes him a great all around player.

Your charcterization of the DEAD BALL era is a little misleading. yes, it was a different time, but that doesn't make the acheivements of Christy Matheson, Cy Young, Grover Cleveland Alexander, or Ruth any less impressive.

They were the best of their day, and that's nothing to sneeze at.

Bill!
05-22-2006, 09:20 PM
Fuckin Robin Ventura!!!!

And comeon, Nolan pitched 7 no hitters, 5714 K's and was FEARED by some of the best hitters of his time.

Yes, but he never pitched a perfect game.

Brewtown Andy
05-22-2006, 09:20 PM
Yes, but he never pitched a perfect game.Please tell me you're being sarcastic.

gaspar
05-22-2006, 09:21 PM
Ruth by far.

He would have gone into the HOF as a pitcher if he hadn't been switched to the OF for being such a badass slugger. As was said above, his baserunning and fielding weren't the greatest, but what he did well, he did better than ANYONE. Find me another multiple time 20 game winning pitcher who just happens to also have over 700 career HRs.

Ruth was the best in his time and is still the best compared to all that have come after him.

sonnylarue
05-22-2006, 09:22 PM
Ruth by far.

He would have gone into the HOF as a pitcher if he hadn't been switched to the OF for being such a badass slugger. As was said above, his baserunning and fielding weren't the greatest, but what he did well, he did better than ANYONE. Find me another multiple time 20 game winning pitcher who just happens to also have over 700 career HRs.

Ruth was the best in his time and is still the best compared to all that have come after him.

exactly. BTW Don Drysdale was a great hitter, when he did bat.

TopFeeg
05-22-2006, 09:22 PM
Yes, but he never pitched a perfect game.
SO... Does that mean that David Cone and David Wells are better pitchers than Nolan? A walk isn't always a negative stat against a pitcher. The fact that Nolan had 7 no-hitters attests to his personal dominance over 27 years pitching in the majors.

Bill!
05-22-2006, 09:37 PM
SO... Does that mean that David Cone and David Wells are better pitchers than Nolan? A walk isn't always a negative stat against a pitcher. The fact that Nolan had 7 no-hitters attests to his personal dominance over 27 years pitching in the majors.

No, but Koufax was better. By far. He pitched less than half the length Ryan did, his WHIP was a full two tenths of a point lower including perhaps one of the greatest single season marks ever at 0.85, and his ERA was again a half a point lower than Ryans. In addition, he marked about half the K's that Ryan did in less than half the time. Had Koufax not retired, at the prime of his career no less, he would have surpassed Ryan. Koufax was the most brilliant southpaw, if not pitcher in general, of all time.

Also if you want to compare the two, look at their postseason pitching stats. Koufax also shines under pressure, moreso than Ryan.

TopFeeg
05-22-2006, 09:47 PM
No, but Koufax was better. By far. He pitched less than half the length Ryan did, his WHIP was a full two tenths of a point lower including perhaps one of the greatest single season marks ever at 0.85, and his ERA was again a half a point lower than Ryans. In addition, he marked about half the K's that Ryan did in less than half the time. Had Koufax not retired, at the prime of his career no less, he would have surpassed Ryan. Koufax was the most brilliant southpaw, if not pitcher in general, of all time.

Also if you want to compare the two, look at their postseason pitching stats. Koufax also shines under pressure, moreso than Ryan.

Ryan played for shitty teams and hardly even got to the playoffs. Nolan's longevity, and power numbers into his late 30's and his 40's just attests to his power as a human being. Sandy Kofax was a GREAT pitcher, definately one of the best, but I'm personally a Nolan Fan. And Nolan has the lowest H/9inn in history, and while, he walked alot, you gotta set em up to knock em down.

Taxman
05-22-2006, 09:54 PM
exactly. BTW Don Drysdale was a great hitter, when he did bat.I heard the other day that Ruth set the home run record at 138, it that's correct. :lol:

That would be an example of someone who changed the face of his sport.

Bill!
05-22-2006, 09:55 PM
Ryan played for shitty teams and hardly even got to the playoffs. Nolan's longevity, and power numbers into his late 30's and his 40's just attests to his power as a human being. Sandy Kofax was a GREAT pitcher, definately one of the best, but I'm personally a Nolan Fan. And Nolan has the lowest H/9inn in history, and while, he walked alot, you gotta set em up to knock em down.
I consider WHIP a much more important stat than hits/9in, as will most baseball historians. Walking people is rarely a good thing. Koufax owns a much lower career WHIP and one of the most dominating single season WHIPs ever set. Plus, he's number 2 for hits per nine innings.

I think the fact Koufax quit in his prime is just a tragedy and takes away from his fame, which is amazing given how famous he already is. The man struck out a career high 382 batters in his second to last season. In addition, its certainly possible that had Koufax played as long as Ryan, he would have pitched another four no hitters, and topped Ryan with 8. In addition, he has that perfect game in his pocket.

Ryan is awesome, maybe one of the top 3. But Koufax is the best. He took pitching to a whole new level, even studying anatomy of the body to make pitchers more effective and teaching it to new players.

TopFeeg
05-22-2006, 10:01 PM
I consider WHIP a much more important stat than hits/9in, as will most baseball historians. Walking people is rarely a good thing. Koufax owns a much lower career WHIP and one of the most dominating single season WHIPs ever set. Plus, he's number 2 for hits per nine innings.

I think the fact Koufax quit in his prime is just a tragedy and takes away from his fame, which is amazing given how famous he already is. The man struck out a career high 382 batters in his second to last season. In addition, its certainly possible that had Koufax played as long as Ryan, he would have pitched another four no hitters, and topped Ryan with 8. In addition, he has that perfect game in his pocket.

Ryan is awesome, maybe one of the top 3. But Koufax is the best. He took pitching to a whole new level, even studying anatomy of the body to make pitchers more effective and teaching it to new players.

Sandy Koufax had arth (as did Nolan in his later years) so it's not like he quit baseball out of random acts. He was injured alot and decided not to risk it any more. Nolan played through any pain, and continued on for 27 years. And, with the 383k mark, when Nolan set that mark, it was the first year of the DH, so he faced atleast 70 atbats that would have normally been pitchers, making his 383 that much more impressive. If he were still in the NL, or the DH hadn't been created yet, he would have pitched over 400 k's.

WillieLee
05-22-2006, 11:21 PM
Because he's facing a higher caliber of pitching and defense than the players of yesteryear did. Also, you're dreaming if you think pitchers of today don't still cheat to gain a competitive advantage.

A-Rod has been declining since 1996, if he's the greatest ever shouldn't he have improved after his first full year?

Shane W
05-23-2006, 04:27 AM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

No, really, that was hysterical.

I'm sure he'll be the most "over-rated" first ballot hall of famer of all-time, then.


Agreed. If Derek Jeter played on any other team than the Yankees, he would be just another good ball player. Hell, he's not even the best shortstop on the team right now.

Shane W
05-23-2006, 04:35 AM
No, but Koufax was better. By far. He pitched less than half the length Ryan did, his WHIP was a full two tenths of a point lower including perhaps one of the greatest single season marks ever at 0.85, and his ERA was again a half a point lower than Ryans. In addition, he marked about half the K's that Ryan did in less than half the time. Had Koufax not retired, at the prime of his career no less, he would have surpassed Ryan. Koufax was the most brilliant southpaw, if not pitcher in general, of all time.

Also if you want to compare the two, look at their postseason pitching stats. Koufax also shines under pressure, moreso than Ryan.

If Koufax had more than a 4-5 year stretch, I might agree. But if you look at him he had a short (for a pitcher) career with more average years than good.

The fact that he did retire so early doesn't mean a thing to me as I can imaging all sorts of things that he "could" have done butdidn't. So to me, in the grand scheme of things, Koufax doesn't scratch my top 5.

Dan
05-23-2006, 05:20 AM
Put me down for Willie Mays.

TIP
05-23-2006, 05:30 AM
He's certainly not the greatest player of all time...but for sentimental purposes I'll always include Kirby Puckett in my Top Five.

T

LazyComix
05-23-2006, 05:38 AM
Ruth. Period. Talk about whoever else ya want. They're not Hall of Fame pitchers and position players.

As for the douche bags that call Jeter "overrated"... he's a few hits shy of 2,000 and he's 31 years old. If he gets to 3,000 is he still overrated? 2 gold gloves, 4 championships.... lifetime average over .300

whaaa! He's a Yankee so I don't like 'em! Whaaa!

Shane W
05-23-2006, 05:59 AM
Ruth. Period. Talk about whoever else ya want. They're not Hall of Fame pitchers and position players.

As for the douche bags that call Jeter "overrated"... he's a few hits shy of 2,000 and he's 31 years old. If he gets to 3,000 is he still overrated? 2 gold gloves, 4 championships.... lifetime average over .300

whaaa! He's a Yankee so I don't like 'em! Whaaa!

Douche Bags? Well that helps the argument. Yes, over-rated and it has nothing to do with him being a Yankee. If you would take the time to do a little research, you would see that I am one of the few non New Yorkers that doesn't bitch nor is jealous of the Yanks.

At no time can you say that Jeter was the best player in baseball nor his position. Today, you can make the argument that Tejada is better. A few years ago it was A-Rod, Garciapara. At no time was Jeter the clear "best". Yogi Berra has just as many rings and no one considers him the best.

Is Jeter a good player? Yes. Hall-Of-Fame? Quite possibly. Over-rated? ABSOLUTELY.

adamgreenberger
05-23-2006, 06:10 AM
Ted Wiliams...he could do it all

Brian Defferding
05-23-2006, 06:11 AM
Bob Ueker.
:D

TopFeeg
05-23-2006, 07:16 AM
Oh, and Jeter is Overrated. 9% of PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL players say he's over rated(Highest of all other players). He's always out of position, so me makes normal plays look fantastic because he should have been somewhere else, but had to leg out fly balls and such. Yes, he was a part of 4 championship teams, but because Curt Schilling has 2 Rings in 4 years, does that mean he's the best? No, that mean's he's good, and has been part of a team that is great. Oh, and in their time at Short, Nomar and ARod were far better players at the position than Jeter.

sonnylarue
05-23-2006, 07:18 AM
edit

ds9
05-23-2006, 07:32 AM
editBarry Bonds?;-)

joeyart
05-23-2006, 07:38 AM
Josh Gibson's name deserves to be brought up in this conversation...

As does Bonds's. I don't like the guy. I think he cheated. But he put up the numbers and was already in the top 10 before he cheated.

LazyComix
05-23-2006, 07:59 AM
Oh, and Jeter is Overrated. 9% of PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL players say he's over rated(Highest of all other players). He's always out of position, so me makes normal plays look fantastic because he should have been somewhere else, but had to leg out fly balls and such. Yes, he was a part of 4 championship teams, but because Curt Schilling has 2 Rings in 4 years, does that mean he's the best? No, that mean's he's good, and has been part of a team that is great. Oh, and in their time at Short, Nomar and ARod were far better players at the position than Jeter.

Whaaa. The top 3 players on that list all happened to play in New York. What a coincidence. 2 gold gloves and he's "always out of position"

Taxman
05-23-2006, 08:11 AM
Josh Gibson's name deserves to be brought up in this conversation...

As does Bonds's. I don't like the guy. I think he cheated. But he put up the numbers and was already in the top 10 before he cheated.I don't think people really know what to make of Bonds these days. The one think that is for sure is that there isn't any reason to believe that anyone else ever had an offensive focus as intense as Bonds has shown.

Shane W
05-23-2006, 08:11 AM
Whaaa. The top 3 players on that list all happened to play in New York. What a coincidence. 2 gold gloves and he's "always out of position"

Gold Gloves don't mean jack. Rapheal Palmero won a "gold glove" by playing less that 30 games at first base in 1999.

Mike Matheny has won gold gloves at catcher, but would you rather have him in his prime, or Piazza in his?

LazyComix
05-23-2006, 08:23 AM
Gold Gloves don't mean jack. Rapheal Palmero won a "gold glove" by playing less that 30 games at first base in 1999.

Mike Matheny has won gold gloves at catcher, but would you rather have him in his prime, or Piazza in his?

Yeah, you're all right. Jeter sucks. The only first ballot Hall of Famer who blows.

Go Cards.

Shane W
05-23-2006, 08:26 AM
Yeah, you're all right. Jeter sucks. The only first ballot Hall of Famer who blows.

Go Cards.

You have a pretty skewed idea of the conversation here. No one said "he blows", so I'm not sure what you're getting at. He is over-rated and two gold gloves don't prove otherwise.

Him getting lumped in with the best of all time is over-rating him as he isn't even the best of his era.

Brian Defferding
05-23-2006, 08:40 AM
I do think Mickey Mantle had some great heart and soul, and kept carrying it on to his last years.

Shane W
05-23-2006, 09:46 AM
I do think Mickey Mantle had some great heart and soul, and kept carrying it on to his last years.

Hot and heavy every night

Whoahh

Criden
05-23-2006, 09:48 AM
Derek Jeter. Ah got a bawl saigned bah heim.

SteveFlack
05-23-2006, 09:53 AM
Agreed. If Derek Jeter played on any other team than the Yankees, he would be just another good ball player. Hell, he's not even the best shortstop on the team right now.

I was being sarcastic.

-Steve!

SteveFlack
05-23-2006, 09:56 AM
Oh, and Jeter is Overrated. 9% of PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL players say he's over rated(Highest of all other players). He's always out of position, so me makes normal plays look fantastic because he should have been somewhere else, but had to leg out fly balls and such. Yes, he was a part of 4 championship teams, but because Curt Schilling has 2 Rings in 4 years, does that mean he's the best? No, that mean's he's good, and has been part of a team that is great. Oh, and in their time at Short, Nomar and ARod were far better players at the position than Jeter.

9% is really a commanding percentage. And how much of that is pure jealousy? That has to factor in there somewhere.

-Steve!

Brian Defferding
05-23-2006, 09:58 AM
Hot and heavy every night

Whoahh

Whooooah ooah oooh oh!

He's got it all!

SaintMike
05-23-2006, 10:01 AM
Mr. October...Reggie Jackson!

Doug
05-23-2006, 10:17 AM
I'm a little late, but I'll chime in with Ruth. As it has been mentioned many times before he both hit and pitched. He was a great all around player.

Other names I'd put on the list:
Hank Aaron
Willie Mays
Mickey Mantel
Joe Dimaggio
Roger Clemens (a modern day player who I feel is one of the best ever, even if he is a headhunter)

Shane W
05-23-2006, 10:19 AM
I was being sarcastic.

-Steve!

I wasn't.

Bill!
05-23-2006, 10:28 AM
Ruth. Period. Talk about whoever else ya want. They're not Hall of Fame pitchers and position players.

As for the douche bags that call Jeter "overrated"... he's a few hits shy of 2,000 and he's 31 years old. If he gets to 3,000 is he still overrated? 2 gold gloves, 4 championships.... lifetime average over .300

whaaa! He's a Yankee so I don't like 'em! Whaaa!
Two gold gloves don't really mean jack today. Torii Hunter has way more than that. Fuck, even Doug Mientkiewicz has more I believe, and he is barely a starting player anymore.

The championships mean jack as well. He's just lucky enough to be on a good team. Ted Williams never had a championship, so championships don't really mean jack to individual efforts.

Shane W
05-23-2006, 10:31 AM
Two gold gloves don't really mean jack today. Torii Hunter has way more than that. Fuck, even Doug Mientkiewicz has more I believe, and he is barely a starting player anymore.

The championships mean jack as well. He's just lucky enough to be on a good team. Ted Williams never had a championship, so championships don't really mean jack to individual efforts.

Exactly. You gotta love Yankee (and Red Sox) fans that can't talk seriously about anyone without getting all bent out of shape and acting like there's some jealousy going on.

Hell Ernie Banks was/is better than Jeter with zero rings and 1 GG.

LazyComix
05-23-2006, 11:08 AM
Two gold gloves don't really mean jack today. Torii Hunter has way more than that. Fuck, even Doug Mientkiewicz has more I believe, and he is barely a starting player anymore.

The championships mean jack as well. He's just lucky enough to be on a good team. Ted Williams never had a championship, so championships don't really mean jack to individual efforts.

I'll give you gold gloves don't mean much... but championships don't mean "jack" now either? Although from Twins and Cards fans, I guess they wouldn't mean much.

Shane W
05-23-2006, 11:14 AM
I'll give you gold gloves don't mean much... but championships don't mean "jack" now either? Although from Twins and Cards fans, I guess they wouldn't mean much.

Championships don't mean jack in regards to a single player's greatness. Are you trying to be obtuse?

The D
05-23-2006, 12:18 PM
I'll give you gold gloves don't mean much... but championships don't mean "jack" now either? Although from Twins and Cards fans, I guess they wouldn't mean much.
So I guess that means you don't know what team has won the second most World Series?

Bill!
05-23-2006, 12:36 PM
I'll give you gold gloves don't mean much... but championships don't mean "jack" now either? Although from Twins and Cards fans, I guess they wouldn't mean much.
To individual effort, a championship means nothing. Would you say that Walter Johnson and Ted Williams are worse players because they don't have any or very few championships under their belt? That would just be naive. Championships are nice, but they are team awards, not player awards. Especially when you are only one of many good players on such a team.

Smokinblues
05-23-2006, 01:14 PM
I dunno. Mattingly gets hammered all the time for not winning one.

Ryan F
05-23-2006, 01:50 PM
I think I would go with Willie Mays. He could do everything at the plate + the pretty defense.

Musial for most underrated

Bob Gibson for greatest pitcher.

The problem with Ruth is that he only had to play against whites. Yeah, he was above and beyond his contemporaries, but that ends up being a narrowed list. By no means do I think he would have been as dominant in a different era.