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View Full Version : So I asked a Catholic friend of mine...



Taki Soma
03-16-2006, 06:49 AM
regarding stigmata and possession by the devil;

Has there been cases of the above mentioned who were not catholics, or belonged to some type of a religion relating to christianity who's suffered it/them?

...My friend said not that he knows of.

Can anyone confirm this?

Anyone know of any interesting insight into stigmata or possesson/exorcism?

Pat Loika
03-16-2006, 06:51 AM
This happens a lot in the Philippines, where the dominant religion is Catholicism.

I remember a couple of 'possessions' taking place in a school I used to go to.

P.

Matt Jay
03-16-2006, 06:57 AM
It's all in their head. Islamic Suffis can stab themselves in the face, chest and head with minimal bleeding and no wounds. I guess that's like an inverse of stigmata. I think stigmata is really just people who make themselves crazy.

Gregory
03-16-2006, 06:58 AM
There's a great play about it called Agnes of God, putting psychoSOMAtic theory versus faith.

joeyart
03-16-2006, 06:59 AM
other religions might have similar things happen, but call them different things...
maybe?

Taki Soma
03-16-2006, 07:01 AM
see, that's my theory too, is that their 'faith' is so strong to the point of madness, and thus, are the only people riddled with cases like stigmata and possession.

I'd believe it more if a shinto or muslim or agnostic faith were to experience the same thing.

possession I believe more than stigmata, because... well... I have reasons which would be too long to get into, but yea.

Olivier E.
03-16-2006, 07:09 AM
Aren't possession, a common thing in japan too?
Most of the shojo mangas I've read, the possession theme appeared.

Taki Soma
03-16-2006, 07:12 AM
Aren't possession, a common thing in japan too?
Most of the shojo mangas I've read, the possession theme appeared.
omg, dude... ficticious stories

EDIT: and 2nd most popular religion in Japan IS Christianity

Powersurge_Classic
03-16-2006, 07:16 AM
In Old English, and its relative languages in the other Germanic tongues, there is a word called wod (Old Norse - odhR). It is the root of the name of the Germanic deity Woden (ON. Odhinn), save that the -en signifies mastery of the associted concept ... as in driht-en (master of the warband; warlord, king) or theod-en (master of the tribe; chieftain, king).

Anyway, the concept of wod is complex and has a range of meaning, "inspiration, fury, madness". Where self-mastery was lacking, wod was seem as manifesting very much as demonic possession and this is what the early Teutonic Catholics compared it to.

Much like early converts amongst the Germanic peoples believed that the Devil could be outwitted by mere mortals, the preChristian Teutopnic beleived that wod, will potential dangerous, could be controlled, harnessed. So it was ascribed quite the same degree of negativity as "demonic possession". One might say that contrast is between "gun owner" and "gun-toting lunatic"

As for the stigmata ... while Germanic belief has it's "maimed gods", I have never encountered any type of legends or folk tales outside of Christianity that have to do with the spontaneous appearance of wounds on a body. And in the rare cases where such is found, it is usually attributed to "witchcraft" and ascribed a negative meaning.

Taxman
03-16-2006, 07:19 AM
Some people will believe a disease like Epilepsy or Turrets Syndrome to be a demonic possession.

saymama
03-16-2006, 07:22 AM
Growing up catholic myself, I think alot more goes on than we think or could possibly even imagine. I had never heard of stigmata until I was in my very late teens. I do think that most of it happens to be a hoax, but you just never know...if the catholic church did find something, anything genuine they would never reveal it. First the freak ass x-files gov't would come in and take over. Secondly, the people that would flock to see that person would be unbelievable. For a religion that says as one of it's commandments, You shall worship no other gods before me, they sure run to the first jesus on toast they find. It would literally be mass chaos for the church to admit anything.

The church also denies demonic possession. However, there are a few brave priest out there that serious claim to be able to exorcise. But the idea that all of these priest are legit and not just in it as a farce has me skeptical as well. I've seen shows on exorcism and I from what I gather the churches stand on these possessions is that they are not real. The person is insane or mulitple personailites or just faking it. I think they call it a some sort a euphoria state. I don't remember, i'd have to look it up for the correct terminology.

Taki Soma
03-16-2006, 07:26 AM
Some people will believe a disease like Epilepsy or Turrets Syndrome to be a demonic possession.
this is true, but from what I've studied, the catholic church is very strict to give permission to perform an exorcism for this reason. possessions MUST follow a certain pattern. I've read about certain cases where a family was convinced of possession, and the church refuse any type of exorcisms to be performed.

I am sure, though, that there were cases when epilepsy and turrets were first being discovered as neuro-disorder rather than some supernatural phenomenon, that it really was misdiagnosed.

Victor Cabanelas
03-16-2006, 07:27 AM
In theory, possesions are caused by actual diseases (though disorders is probably a better word).

About stigmata, this is just guessing, but I guess that if you want to bleed from this or that point really bad and spend hours and hours wanting that, you could start bleeding. The mind´s too powerful.

Olivier E.
03-16-2006, 07:30 AM
omg, dude... ficticious stories

EDIT: and 2nd most popular religion in Japan IS Christianity

so they don't hang those papers on the trees in real life? :(

saymama
03-16-2006, 07:30 AM
this is true, but from what I've studied, the catholic church is very strict to give permission to perform an exorcism for this reason. possessions MUST follow a certain pattern. I've read about certain cases where a family was convinced of possession, and the church refuse any type of exorcisms to be performed.

I am sure, though, that there were cases when epilepsy and turrets were first being discovered as neuro-disorder rather than some supernatural phenomenon, that it really was misdiagnosed.


actually there is a story in the bible about a son that was possessed by a demon. the exact symptoms they describe, to me the son had epilepsy. This very scripture and my bitch ass crack pot minister are the reason that Jeffery and I are no longer a part of the church that we basically had a huge role in. and forgo the smartass comments about freakish religions- were both grow up catholic and attended a methodist church in our adult life.

joeyart
03-16-2006, 07:31 AM
In Old English, and its relative languages in the other Germanic tongues, there is a word called wod (Old Norse - odhR). It is the root of the name of the Germanic deity Woden (ON. Odhinn), save that the -en signifies mastery of the associted concept ... as in driht-en (master of the warband; warlord, king) or theod-en (master of the tribe; chieftain, king).

Anyway, the concept of wod is complex and has a range of meaning, "inspiration, fury, madness". Where self-mastery was lacking, wod was seem as manifesting very much as demonic possession and this is what the early Teutonic Catholics compared it to.

Much like early converts amongst the Germanic peoples believed that the Devil could be outwitted by mere mortals, the preChristian Teutopnic beleived that wod, will potential dangerous, could be controlled, harnessed. So it was ascribed quite the same degree of negativity as "demonic possession". One might say that contrast is between "gun owner" and "gun-toting lunatic"

As for the stigmata ... while Germanic belief has it's "maimed gods", I have never encountered any type of legends or folk tales outside of Christianity that have to do with the spontaneous appearance of wounds on a body. And in the rare cases where such is found, it is usually attributed to "witchcraft" and ascribed a negative meaning.

whoa. Did you just type this off the top of your head?

WinterRose
03-16-2006, 07:32 AM
Now of course it's not exactly DEMONIC posession, however, there's plenty of talk about being 'ridden' by spiritual loas in the Voudoun religions, which aside from the christian parts they picked up (just like your salad bar), is comprised of other African religious beliefs.

As for those kooky christians, I betcha those quakers from the such from the burning times could have told you a thing or two about consorting with the devil and demonic possession.

Taki Soma
03-16-2006, 07:32 AM
Growing up catholic myself, I think alot more goes on than we think or could possibly even imagine. I had never heard of stigmata until I was in my very late teens. I do think that most of it happens to be a hoax, but you just never know...if the catholic church did find something, anything genuine they would never reveal it. First the freak ass x-files gov't would come in and take over. Secondly, the people that would flock to see that person would be unbelievable. For a religion that says as one of it's commandments, You shall worship no other gods before me, they sure run to the first jesus on toast they find. It would literally be mass chaos for the church to admit anything.

The church also denies demonic possession. However, there are a few brave priest out there that serious claim to be able to exorcise. But the idea that all of these priest are legit and not just in it as a farce has me skeptical as well. I've seen shows on exorcism and I from what I gather the churches stand on these possessions is that they are not real. The person is insane or mulitple personailites or just faking it. I think they call it a some sort a euphoria state. I don't remember, i'd have to look it up for the correct terminology.I've read about possessions and exorcisms witnessed by someone out of the faith and claims to be a man of science; a psychiatrist, M.Scott Peck in the book 'People of the lie' a long time ago. I do believe there are demonic possessions to a certain degree because I've read that and few other books I've read.

Stigmata is something I really have a hard time with though.

saymama
03-16-2006, 07:35 AM
I've read about possessions and exorcisms witnessed by someone out of the faith and claims to be a man of science; a psychiatrist, M.Scott Peck in the book 'People of the lie' a long time ago. I do believe there are demonic possessions to a certain degree because I've read that and few other books I've read.

Stigmata is something I really have a hard time with though.


i personally do believe in demonic possessions. As far as stigmata, hey anything is possible. I just think that they church does it's best to keep these things under wraps to avoid mass chaos. I just think the church is like our gov't, alot more goes on behind the scenes than they truly want to let out.

Taki Soma
03-16-2006, 07:37 AM
i personally do believe in demonic possessions. As far as stigmata, hey anything is possible. I just think that they church does it's best to keep these things under wraps to avoid mass chaos. I just think the church is like our gov't, alot more goes on behind the scenes than they truly want to let out.
I really wish I could study these secret cases just for studies. I won't tell anyone... will you tell the pope for me?

Matt Jay
03-16-2006, 07:39 AM
I think I've been watching too much discovery channel lately to believe in supernatural stuff.

Chupacabra? Not real.
Using your chi to knock people out? No one can do it.
Learning to fly through meditation? Despite an expensive school here you can supposedly learn it, it's never been done.

Taki Soma
03-16-2006, 07:42 AM
I think I've been watching too much discovery channel lately to believe in supernatural stuff.

Chupacabra? Not real.
Using your chi to knock people out? No one can do it.
Learning to fly through meditation? Despite an expensive school here you can supposedly learn it, it's never been done.
but I love learning about these phenomenons :scared:

DrMachine
03-16-2006, 07:43 AM
in my experience most of the time possesions happen in the catholic church is when the church's practices have been mixed with outside influences, such as paganism, voodoo, superstitions...etc..etc...

I'm not a religious person, just throwing out my own observations

Taki Soma
03-16-2006, 07:45 AM
in my experience most of the time possesions happen in the catholic church is when the church's practices have been mixed with outside influences, such as paganism, voodoo, superstitions...etc..etc...

I'm not a religious person, just throwing out my own observations
I'm not religious either, but I find these things quite fascinating, and sometimes I question whether if I believe them or not. I believe in possessions more than stigmata though.

joeyart
03-16-2006, 07:46 AM
I think I've been watching too much discovery channel lately to believe in supernatural stuff.

Chupacabra? Not real.
Using your chi to knock people out? No one can do it.
Learning to fly through meditation? Despite an expensive school here you can supposedly learn it, it's never been done.

Chupacabra's not real? then what's eating those goats?

Taki Soma
03-16-2006, 07:47 AM
Chupacabra's not real? then what's eating those goats?
Brad P

DrMachine
03-16-2006, 07:48 AM
I'm not religious either, but I find these things quite fascinating, and sometimes I question whether if I believe them or not. I believe in possessions more than stigmata though.

me too

have you seen "The Exorcism of Emily Rose" Mandy and I watched it over the weekend...good stuff

Taki Soma
03-16-2006, 07:51 AM
me too

have you seen "The Exorcism of Emily Rose" Mandy and I watched it over the weekend...good stuff
oh totally. I really liked how the movie made you see 2 sides. But ultimately, it leaned way too much on faith, I think it should've ended on the note to let the audience decide whether it was real or just an epilectic.... and IMO from just seeing the movie and reading a little bit about it, I think it was a possession.... OR both. She was an epilectic who was possessed.

joeyart
03-16-2006, 07:51 AM
Brad P

whoa. a lot of things just became clearer.

Matt Jay
03-16-2006, 07:52 AM
Chupacabra's not real? then what's eating those goats?
Normal predators make the kills then flies and maggots do the "removal" of certain organs.

DrMachine
03-16-2006, 07:53 AM
oh totally. I really liked how the movie made you see 2 sides. But ultimately, it leaned way too much on faith, I think it should've ended on the note to let the audience decide whether it was real or just an epilectic.... and IMO from just seeing the movie and reading a little bit about it, I think it was a possession.... OR both. She was an epilectic who was possessed.

I agree...or not

:lol:

I enjoyed it much more than I thought I would

Powersurge_Classic
03-16-2006, 07:54 AM
Various Germanic legends, particularly the late Norse legends speak of berserkers who were under the infleunce of wod, ie. we "possessed, enraged". The legends tell of how neither fire nor iron could hurt them, while their seems to testify to the fact that the even went into battle without armour.

The berserkers weren't the first Germanic warriros to go into battle without armour. Tacitus speaks of a matriarchal Germanic tribe living just east of the old Angle's (in southern Denmark). Their warriors went into battle naked save for their shield, relying upon the boar crest on their shield to protect them.

More tellingly are the ancient Heruli, who likewise fought without the benefit of armour, and whose fighting skill was renowned by military powerhouse of Rome. In Norse, the term "heruli" became "eruli" and was used as a designation for rune-master (magician).

Anyway, I personally have a hard time believing that any one, be they causasian or oriental, ancient or modern, is invincible to fire or steel. Of course, steel and fire can only bite what they can hit .... and the tradtionally impoversihed warrior that was the ancient Teutonic warrior were forced to develope fioghting styles that accounted for their lack of armour and the heavy armour of their opponents.

Some thing are explainable once you learn the metaphor, or understand why fantiastic stories are being told. Fanatastic stories regarding martial prowess for instance have a very practical value and can effect the mind of potnetial opponents.

Still, somethings are so fantastic, and actaiuly evidence would be so hard to control in this day and age, that they are next to unbeleivable. Of course, there are more things in heaven and earth .... so I would never be so arrogant as to pen the final page or close the book. As always, the rule of precedent reigns supreme.

Pat Loika
03-16-2006, 07:54 AM
I've got nothing to add, but I must say this is a rather fascinating topic. I never even put much thought into these possessions and associated them with things like seizures.

P.

joeyart
03-16-2006, 07:55 AM
Normal predators make the kills then flies and maggots do the "removal" of certain organs.

man...and that was my favorite mysterious animal thingy....now I'll have to start loving the abomibal snowman, like all the other nerds.

DrMachine
03-16-2006, 07:55 AM
I've got nothing to add, but I must say this is a rather fascinating topic. I never even put much thought into these possessions and associated them with things like seizures.

P.

don't know if you're catholic, but one of the apostles (Paul) was thought to be epileptic, and that was the cause of his "visions"

makes you wonder

Pat Loika
03-16-2006, 07:58 AM
don't know if you're catholic, but one of the apostles (Paul) was thought to be epileptic, and that was the cause of his "visions"

makes you wonder

I'm Catholic, actually. But I haven't really been practicing or participating for some time. I was never super-religious.

P.

DrMachine
03-16-2006, 08:01 AM
I'm Catholic, actually. But I haven't really been practicing or participating for some time. I was never super-religious.

P.

same here, but I'm fascinated by this topic

the closest I've come to attending mass (other than my wedding) in the last 10+ years is watching the discovery channel

stevapalooza
03-16-2006, 08:03 AM
The Catholics don't really have a monopoly on possession. Exorcists still do very good business in China and other parts of Asia. And in past centuries it was even more common. I just read a book on Chinese exorcism in the middle ages and those folks blamed everything on demonic possession, from violent behavior to lingering depression. The idea of demonic possession is very old and found in pretty much all cultures.

Matt Jay
03-16-2006, 08:05 AM
man...and that was my favorite mysterious animal thingy....now I'll have to start loving the abomibal snowman, like all the other nerds.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. I was kinda bummed when I found out.

Taki Soma
03-16-2006, 08:07 AM
The Catholics don't really have a monopoly on possession. Exorcists still do very good business in China and other parts of Asia. And in past centuries it was even more common. I just read a book on Chinese exorcism in the middle ages and those folks blamed everything on demonic possession, from violent behavior to lingering depression. The idea of demonic possession is very old and found in pretty much all cultures.
ok, I will give you that, and I had the same idea before posting this thread.

but I am fascinated by the catholic views on possessions and exorcisms.

Jef UK
03-16-2006, 08:07 AM
but you just never know...i.

Of course you can know.

An epistemological concern: if you can't know, then why would you presume it's one thing over any other thing?

Anyway read this: http://skepdic.com/exorcism.html

exorcism
If ignorance is bliss, demon chasers must be in nirvana.

An exorcism is a religious rite for driving Satan or evil spirits out of a possessed person, place, or thing. In ancient times, many cultures had such rites. Today, the Roman Catholic Church still believes in diabolic possession and its priests still practice what is called "real exorcism," a 27-page ritual to drive out evil spirits. The ritual involves the use of holy water, incantations, various prayers, incense, relics, and Christian symbols such as the cross. The Catholic Church has at least ten official exorcists in America today (Cuneo). The Archbishop of Calcutta, Henry Sebastian D'Souza, says he ordered a priest to perform an exorcism on Mother Teresa shortly before she died in 1997 because he thought she was being attacked by the devil.

Most Protestant sects also believe in satanic possession and exorcism. Michael Cuneo, a sociologist at Fordham University, claims "By conservative estimates, there are at least five or six hundred evangelical exorcism ministries in operation today, and quite possibly two or three times this many." Reverend Brian Connor of South Carolina says "dealing with animate evil is the single most overlooked component of the biblical mandate."* Connor was featured on NBC's "Dateline" program on exorcism (November 13, 2001). He and several friends spent an entire day trying to talk the demons out of the body of a 50-something man with a history of depression and aimlessness. The exorcists held Bibles, which they read from occasionally, and crosses. They huddled around their subject for hours, chanting prayers and ordering the demons to leave. The subject occasionally howled like an animal and grimaced at his benefactors. It was all great drama and eventually cathartic enough for the subject to vomit a little. Connor declared that he was spitting out Satan and that all the demons had left. A follow-up done two months later, however, found that the group had to repeat the exercise six more times. Now they were sure the demons were gone and the subject was sure he was fine and a new man.

Michael Cuneo watched a film of the exorcism and concluded that the group was suggesting to their subject how he should respond and that he saw no evidence of either demonic possession or of demons being exorcized. A psychiatrist was shown the same film and he announced that he couldn't evaluate what he observed as a psychiatrist but as a "believer" he thought that there might be something real going on involving demonic possession. When asked what he based his belief on, he replied tersely: faith. This man was a member of the American Psychiatric Association's Committee on Religion and Psychiatry.

As a layman, I found the behavior of the exorcists at least as interesting as that of the subject. Believing in demons is one thing; believing you have the ability to call up a supernatural being with infinite power and perfection who will cause demons to move on at your behest seems certifiable. The whole coven of exorcists and exorcized are deluded. The former clearly felt great pride at their achievement and shared in a glorious victory over Satan. The latter was coddled and cuddled, hugged and loved, and eventually praised and rewarded with the good feelings of caring people when he released Satan and said "Jesus is Lord." There doesn't seem to be anything deeply complicated about what happened. The group convinced the subject he was possessed. They cued him as to how to behave and they rewarded him and themselves when he let the demon go. Communal reinforcement and self-deception will go a long way towards explaining how the group came to believe they could exorcize demons. The exorcists clearly enjoy their work and get great satisfaction out of "helping" people in this powerful way. I am sure that many evangelicals who saw the program are wondering where they can sign up to be exorcist's helpers.

traditional exorcisms

Exorcisms can be done on inanimate objects or places as well as on people. These need not be "real exorcisms" but can be "simple exorcisms" (usually thought of as baptizing the infant or "blessing" the house or place). Satan is everywhere, it seems, but the specialist in real exorcism is needed only when The Evil One starts acting up.

Most, if not all, cases of alleged demonic possession of humans probably involve either people with brain disorders ranging from epilepsy to schizophrenia and Tourette's syndrome, or people whose brains are more or less healthy but who are unfortunate enough to be sucked into playing a social role with very unpleasant consequences. In any case, the behaviors of the possessed resemble very closely the behaviors of those with electrochemical, neurochemical, or other physical or emotional disorders.

A secularized version of exorcism is practiced by some therapists who specialize in unveiling and ridding their patients of "entities" which, the therapists believe, are the cause of the patient's troubles. Entity release therapists engage in this work even though there is about as much evidence for the "entities" as there is for the devils exorcised by Catholic priests and Protestant evangelicals. Many people, however, are very resistant to the idea that demonic possession is a myth, especially since they have seen or read fictional works such as The Exorcist or the Amityville Horror. They can't imagine how anyone could make such stuff up; yet, it would seem to take much more imagination to give credence to such tales.

Many people fear possession by demons, but the exorcists themselves can cause great damage.

Exorcism has caused a number of real-world tragedies over the years, including several deaths.

Pentecostal ministers in San Francisco pummeled a woman to death in 1995, as they tried to drive out her demons.

In 1997, a Korean Christian woman was stomped to death in Glendale, Calif., and in the Bronx section of New York City, a 5-year-old girl died after being forced to swallow a mixture containing ammonia and vinegar and having her mouth taped shut.

In 1998, a 17-year-old girl in Sayville, N.Y., was suffocated by her mother with a plastic bag, in an effort to destroy a demon inside her.

In 2001, a 37-year old woman, Joanna Lee, was strangled to death in an exorcism by a Korean church minister working in New Zealand. The minister, Luke Lee, was found guilty of manslaughter.

An MSNBC program on exorcists, featuring evangelicals Tom Brown and Bob Larson, warned viewers not to try this at home because they might end up being arrested for botched exorcisms such as those mentioned above. The evangelicals' game is to bring groups of troubled people together and look for demons that are causing the trouble so they can exorcize them. Brown and Larson have never killed anyone, as far as we know, but whether they help or harm people was not possible to discern from the program, since the "reporters" did no background checks or follow-ups on the people exorcised.

The exorcists' only prop is a Bible, which is held in one hand while they talk down the devil in very dramatic episodes worthy of Jerry Springer or Jenny Jones. The "possessed" could have been mentally ill, actors, mentally ill actors, drug addicts, mentally ill drug addicts, or they may have been possessed, as the exorcists claimed. All the participants shown being exorcized seem to have seen the movie "The Exorcist" or one of the sequels. They all fell into the role of husky-voiced Satan speaking from the depths, who was featured in the film. The similarities in speech and behavior among the "possessed" has led some psychologists such as Nicholas Spanos to conclude that both "exorcist" and "possessed" are engaged in learned role-playing.

What was disappointing about the MSNBC program was that no effort was made to get anyone's opinion as to what was going on except for the opinions of the televangelists and their subjects. Wouldn't a serious journalist get a third opinion? Why should we take the word of interested parties like Brown and Larson that their subjects really were possessed and that they really released Satan from all these bodies? These evangelical exorcists might be self-deceived and be guilty of confirmation bias. Even if their intentions are good, they are most probably deluded and certainly causing harm to those they exorcize who should be under psychiatric care.

See also ghost, haunted house, hypnosis, magical thinking, mesmerism, and Satan.

Taki Soma
03-16-2006, 08:10 AM
man...and that was my favorite mysterious animal thingy....now I'll have to start loving the abomibal snowman, like all the other nerds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chupacabra

don't lose hope yet ;)

joeyart
03-16-2006, 08:14 AM
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. I was kinda bummed when I found out.

It's okay...I'm gonna come out of this stronger... :sad:
;-)

joeyart
03-16-2006, 08:14 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chupacabra

don't lose hope yet ;)

So now I'm torn...Discovery Channel vs. Wikipedia....

I'm...

...

:sad:

Taki Soma
03-16-2006, 08:26 AM
So now I'm torn...Discovery Channel vs. Wikipedia....

I'm...

...

:sad:
believe what you want to believe. there is no wrong way. every religion and every believer are laughed at by another, or thrown 'facts' in their faces in an attempt to defunct their faith and beliefs, but I think that these 'facts' are also one sided and can confuse you or convince you. So be it, or not, there's no real answer, because there is no solid answer one way or the other, only speculations... and/or faith.

it's a free country, afterall.

I for one would like to believe in cryptozoology. Yes, somewhere, there is big foot... 8-)

joeyart
03-16-2006, 08:31 AM
believe what you want to believe. there is no wrong way. every religion and every believer are laughed at by another, or thrown 'facts' in their faces in an attempt to defunct their faith and beliefs, but I think that these 'facts' are also one sided and can confuse you or convince you. So be it, or not, there's no real answer, because there is no solid answer one way or the other, only speculations... and/or faith.

it's a free country, afterall.

I for one would like to believe in cryptozoology. Yes, somewhere, there is big foot... 8-)

I do find myself liking religions that tell you there is no wrong way a lot more than those who tell you about the suffering you'll have if you don't agree with theirs...
but that's a bit of a tangent...

stevapalooza
03-16-2006, 08:37 AM
ok, I will give you that, and I had the same idea before posting this thread.

but I am fascinated by the catholic views on possessions and exorcisms.


I think a lot of it comes from Catholic guilt. I think it's a psychological way for very devout catholics to cope with thoughts or impulses that they were raised to believe were "evil".

I'm a Catholic myself, and one thing I can tell you is that Catholics, even the ones who aren't very religious, are VERY superstitious. Many of them definitely believe in things like Satan and demons and possession. So if you already believe in it it's very easy to fall prey to it, even if it is all psychological.

Taki Soma
03-16-2006, 08:48 AM
I think a lot of it comes from Catholic guilt. I think it's a psychological way for very devout catholics to cope with thoughts or impulses that they were raised to believe were "evil".

I'm a Catholic myself, and one thing I can tell you is that Catholics, even the ones who aren't very religious, are VERY superstitious. Many of them definitely believe in things like Satan and demons and possession. So if you already believe in it it's very easy to fall prey to it, even if it is all psychological.
yea, something to blame for your guilt type of a thing.

I hear ya.

although I have come to be fascinated not only because of curiosity, but personal experiences as well. And like I said, I am not very religiuos, didn't grow up studying or going to churches/temples. I always question what I went through to be me being superstitious, or paranoid, or if in fact, it was the real deal.

I'll never know, I guess. And thus, the fascination.

Brendan
03-16-2006, 09:17 AM
regarding stigmata and possession by the devil;

Has there been cases of the above mentioned who were not catholics, or belonged to some type of a religion relating to christianity who's suffered it/them?

...My friend said not that he knows of.

Can anyone confirm this?

Anyone know of any interesting insight into stigmata or possesson/exorcism?

If you're seriously interested, you should go talk to a priest.

Seriously. If you want to do good research --- no matter what kind --- go to the source. You want to learn about apples? Go to the tree. You want to learn about Catholic views on possession? Go ask a priest.

wabi-sabi
03-16-2006, 09:22 AM
I, too, think it is a fascinating subject. The Catholic Church isn't really forth-coming with information on exorcisms and the like, usually denying any part in the subject. And the handful of priests who do actively practice exorcisms are very tight-lipped about the whole thing.
And cryptozoology is so much bloody fun.:vampire:

Brendan
03-16-2006, 09:26 AM
I, too, think it is a fascinating subject. The Catholic Church isn't really forth-coming with information on exorcisms and the like, usually denying any part in the subject. And the handful of priests who do actively practice exorcisms are very tight-lipped about the whole thing.


Oh, that's not true.

These days, the Church has a lot of very strict guidelines to meet before they allow an exorcism. The Church agrees with the medical community in 99.999% of cases that it is usually psychological in origin. It isn't that it is some deep, dark secret. It's that it rarely happens any more.

You could probably Google more information that you need. I remember running across a site a year or so ago by a prominent exorcist who has written several books on the subject. He's hardly "tight-lipped" on the subject. He probably gives more information than you need.

Taki Soma
03-16-2006, 10:31 AM
If you're seriously interested, you should go talk to a priest.

Seriously. If you want to do good research --- no matter what kind --- go to the source. You want to learn about apples? Go to the tree. You want to learn about Catholic views on possession? Go ask a priest.
that's a great suggestion, but I also like to ask the general public too, because it's fascinating to find out about what other's views and experiences are too.

PoWerSurge
03-16-2006, 10:36 AM
Quick Google Search pulled up an article from 1999 where the Vatican slightly changed the ritual for an exorcism. The fact they realized they needed to changed it can hint that it happens

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9901/26/exorcism/

There is a section in there about how the actual number performed is unclear, but JPII did one in 1982

PoWerSurge
03-16-2006, 10:39 AM
Quick Google Search pulled up an article from 1999 where the Vatican slightly changed the ritual for an exorcism. The fact they realized they needed to changed it can hint that it happens

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9901/26/exorcism/

There is a section in there about how the actual number performed is unclear, but JPII did one in 1982

Another interesting article, April 2004. Says Italy has about 300 / year

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/7047

brianquinn
03-16-2006, 10:46 AM
regarding stigmata and possession by the devil;

Has there been cases of the above mentioned who were not catholics, or belonged to some type of a religion relating to christianity who's suffered it/them?

...My friend said not that he knows of.

Can anyone confirm this?

Anyone know of any interesting insight into stigmata or possesson/exorcism?

most stigmatas are not Catholic from what I have read over the years.

regarding infestations, possessions, all that good stuff, a few people I know that are involved with that stuff often times have to seek help outside the Catholic church. every religion from Judaism to Native American religions.

hope this helps a bit. feel free to contact me personally with additional questions, Taki.

Brian

Powersurge_Classic
03-16-2006, 11:29 AM
I thogh thtat it might be interesting to add the Christianity and indeed cultus of salvation in general are products of culturally eclectic urban environments. The New Testament is full of people suffereing from "possession", whose spirits were "unholy", ie. not whole, to use the Germanic terminology. Chances are if you went into an inner-city ghetto and looked around you could pick out at least a case or two of "demonic possession".

Call it "madness" if you will ... say that a placebo won't cure the "possession" because, scientifically, there is no reason it should do anything at all ... all the while dismissing the fact that it DID help, but a rose is a rose by any other name, no?

Anyway, iner-city urban environment ... its the same soil the cult of salvation (any of them) originally sprung from ... and just like the countryside, its still there even after the passage of 2000 years!! Who woulda thunk it?!

Brendan
03-20-2006, 05:08 PM
I ran across this today:

http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?id=2879

Taki Soma
03-20-2006, 05:55 PM
I ran across this today:

http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?id=2879
thank you, Brendan!

V-Man
03-20-2006, 06:41 PM
see, that's my theory too, is that their 'faith' is so strong to the point of madness, and thus, are the only people riddled with cases like stigmata and possession.

I'd believe it more if a shinto or muslim or agnostic faith were to experience the same thing.

possession I believe more than stigmata, because... well... I have reasons which would be too long to get into, but yea.


Yeah...but posessions and Stigmata are seperate. I have to say that I went to the home town of Padre Pio, an Italian priest who had suffered from stigmata for many years...pretty interesting. Most are probably fakes or have another explanation, but certain ones get me thinking, such as this. In many parts of Italy he is considered a hero, there are statues and t-shirts of him in every house and store!