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View Full Version : Donna Troy's death - possibly lamer than Hawkeye's



allanpat
03-08-2006, 07:45 AM
So I'm reading the 'Death and Return of Donna Troy' tpb, and just got through the Young Justice/Titans: Graduation Day storyline.... Are you fucking kidding me??


SPOILER WARNING, even though this is old news...


She gets lazer-beamed to death by a Superman android???? That's it??
My favorite part is that Lilith also gets her neck broken, but no one give a shit about her. Hell, they even only mention her funeral in a throwaway one-liner. Whereas Donna Troy gets the huge funeral with everyone crying. What a bunch of assholes those Titans are!

This is quite possibly one of the worst superhero stories i've read in a long time. Even the Lobdell X-Men days had less unresolved plots & stronger characterization than this.

1) What was the point of the corporation that wanted to fund them at the beginning of the story? I mean other than being a half-assed story device to get the Titans & Young Justice in the same place at the same time?

2) Considering the robot-from-the-future chick is the major threat, and the cause of Donna's death, shouldn't they at least have told us who the hell she is???

3) Oh hey, great - Metamorpho shows up out of nowhere for absolutely NO REASON AT ALL!

4) Since when is Nightwing such a whiny little bitch?

I know this story is supposed to be a launching point for both the Outsiders & Teen Titans books, but if they're going to do a miniseries, the story in the mini should be self contained with threads that lead into the ongoing. Something like not telling us who the hell the main protagonist is doesn't cut it. If this is any indication of what Judd Winick's other books are like, i'm very happy i don't buy them....

Chinaski
03-08-2006, 08:01 AM
Yea, this was a weak ass story almost from the start. I remember reading the end of it and thinking, this is the best you could come up with, a fucking superman robot? Winnicks writing hasnt gotten all that much better since then. Its shocktastic and "ripped from todays headlines" for most of his storylines. Between this and the fall of Luthor, I dont know which long standing character had a worse fate. How does this guy continue to get work?

Gregory
03-08-2006, 08:03 AM
How does this guy continue to get work?

Basically, editors are voting for Pedro.

Gavin
03-08-2006, 08:04 AM
Skipped it, even though I'm big into IC. Sounded pretty lame, and this confirms to me that I made the right choice in skipping it.

Pat Loika
03-08-2006, 08:06 AM
Skipped it, even though I'm big into IC. Sounded pretty lame, and this confirms to me that I made the right choice in skipping it.

Some of us weren't so lucky.

P.

Chinaski
03-08-2006, 08:07 AM
Basically, editors are voting for Pedro.



You mean they think he still might have the potential to pull something that touching, heartfelt and real out of his rear end? Or could he still just be coasting on the fumes of that story and his initial (very decent) run on Exiles? Because aside from that, the man hasnt writting anything I would consider above adequate

allanpat
03-08-2006, 08:10 AM
You mean they think he still might have the potential to pull something that touching, heartfelt and real out of his rear end? Or could he still just be coasting on the fumes of that story

Whatever could you mean?
It's not like all his books are about AIDS....

umm, wait, Speedy - nevermind

Gavin
03-08-2006, 08:11 AM
Some of us weren't so lucky.

P.
Well, you can now spread the word of warning from personal experience.

allanpat
03-08-2006, 08:14 AM
Well, you can now spread the word of warning from personal experience.

should i even bother reading the rest of the trade? The Return of Donna Troy stuff? Last i remember, Phil Jimenez was a pretty compentent writer, and at the very least it'll have good art.

DrMachine
03-08-2006, 08:17 AM
should i even bother reading the rest of the trade? The Return of Donna Troy stuff? Last i remember, Phil Jimenez was a pretty compentent writer, and at the very least it'll have good art.

I bought this a few weeks ago, and I agree with your assessment. The only reason I picked it up was because I really enjoyed the Rann-Thanagar trade and wanted to see how this tied into it...

it doesn't

and the ending is just confusing

but, if you bought it you may as well read it

Pat Loika
03-08-2006, 08:18 AM
I would NEVER read it again, or wish it on anyone.

P.

Gavin
03-08-2006, 08:18 AM
I bought this a few weeks ago, and I agree with your assessment. The only reason I picked it up was because I really enjoyed the Rann-Thanagar trade and wanted to see how this tied into it...

it doesn't

and the ending is just confusing

but, if you bought it you may as well read it
I liked the Rann-Thanagar trade, but you definitely need to read the Infinite Crisis tie-in one shot, which they should have printed with the trade.

Evan the Shaggy
03-08-2006, 08:19 AM
A lamer part was that in a recent storyline, Luthor unleashed about a hundred of those Superman robots on both the Titans and the Outsides, and they took them out easily when in Graduation day, it took everything they had to take down one.

Dreg
03-08-2006, 08:19 AM
The Titans were always heartless bastards. Re-read the issue where Wally leaves the team; they're more concerned about Dick changing his freaking COSTUME.

allanpat
03-08-2006, 08:26 AM
but, if you bought it you may as well read it

i didn't technically buy it to read it...

i just started a graphic novel booth at a local weekly convention (Frank & Sons warehouse, Industry, CA). I've been buying lots of tpb's in bulk for cheap & reselling them at a pretty decent discount (25-50% off).

Because of this i've started reading a lot of books that i normally wouldn't buy, and in almost all cases, i've been glad i didn't buy them. One of the few exceptions was Brad Metzler's Green Arrow run which was pretty decent.

I was about to try Winick's Green Arrow, because the damned James Jean cover is so awesome. Now i'll avoid it like the plague!

Chinaski
03-08-2006, 08:28 AM
A lamer part was that in a recent storyline, Luthor unleashed about a hundred of those Superman robots on both the Titans and the Outsides, and they took them out easily when in Graduation day, it took everything they had to take down one.



Or how about when they induct as a member of their team (the Outsiders I mean) the "girl" android / cyborg whatever you want to call it who was responsible for unleashing the superman robot that killed Donna Troy in the first place. Then the spend the next 18 issues or so telling you she isnt evil or responsible for her actions, then they do another swerve and show that she is an earlier (or was that later) version of Brianiac all along?!? Huh.

Taxman
03-08-2006, 08:30 AM
So, the guy that killed her looks like Hank Henshaw, but isn't Hank Henshaw, is that right?

joespam
03-08-2006, 08:33 AM
I like both the Outsiders and the Teen Titans ongoing books, but this trade really blew.

allanpat
03-08-2006, 08:35 AM
So, the guy that killed her looks like Hank Henshaw, but isn't Hank Henshaw, is that right?

who's hank henshaw?

Pat Loika
03-08-2006, 08:37 AM
who's hank henshaw?

The Cyborg Superman, if I'm not mistaken.

P.

Blandy vs Terrorism
03-08-2006, 08:38 AM
Skipped it, even though I'm big into IC. Sounded pretty lame, and this confirms to me that I made the right choice in skipping it.
You did good. The death story was really bad, and I usually don't mind his writing besides the soapbox he uses it as.

I bought the first issue of the "return" story as well. Couldn't even finish that.

Gregory
03-08-2006, 08:41 AM
What I remember (and I may be fuzzy on this) as the worst part is that Donna is shown obviously not dead as the series ended. The countdown to her return starts practically as soon as she's "killed."

allanpat
03-08-2006, 08:51 AM
The Cyborg Superman, if I'm not mistaken.

P.

ahh, that's right. thanks pat.
In response to Taxman's question then, no the superman android looks nothing like the Cyborg superman. The android looks exactly like Superman - no metal parts visible (until they kick his ass a bit)

TheTravis!
03-08-2006, 09:00 AM
Worst fucking story ever.

I LIKE Winnick's writing. But this mess was fucking inexcusable and laughable.

WAKKAJAWAKKA
03-08-2006, 09:08 AM
I Liked It Only Cause I Like Eye Lazers So Much.

Wayno.

TheTravis!
03-08-2006, 09:25 AM
I Liked It Only Cause I Like Eye Lazers So Much.

Wayno.

Cyclops must be your favorite comic book character.

ds9
03-08-2006, 09:47 AM
Basically, editors are voting for Pedro.low really low

ds9
03-08-2006, 09:48 AM
I would NEVER read it again, or wish it on anyone.

P.It was not that bad.

WAKKAJAWAKKA
03-08-2006, 09:52 AM
Cyclops must be your favorite comic book character.

Nah, Not The Same. His Aren't Really Lazers. And He Doesn't Kill With Them. And He's A Wiener.

Wayno.

ds9
03-08-2006, 09:54 AM
His Red hood storyline was a very good Batman story and I liked his Outsiders also.

allanpat
03-08-2006, 10:11 AM
His Red hood storyline was a very good Batman story and I liked his Outsiders also.

yeah, i heard the red hood was okay until the annual came out...
judging from responses on this board Graduation Day is the most detested of his work so far....

If i were to give Winick a second shot, what book?
Green Arrow
Batman: Red Hood
Outsiders
Exiles

ds9
03-08-2006, 10:12 AM
yeah, i heard the red hood was okay until the annual came out...
judging from responses on this board Graduation Day is the most detested of his work so far....

If i were to give Winick a second shot, what book?
Green Arrow
Batman: Red Hood
Outsiders
ExilesI say buy the 2 Batman trades because they are nice and cheap 9 a piece. Im going to buy Outsiders and Green Arrow.

Blandy vs Terrorism
03-08-2006, 10:22 AM
yeah, i heard the red hood was okay until the annual came out...
judging from responses on this board Graduation Day is the most detested of his work so far....

If i were to give Winick a second shot, what book?
Green Arrow
Batman: Red Hood
Outsiders
Exiles
I thought his Exiles run was really good, and heard similar opinions from others.

Ray G.
03-08-2006, 10:48 AM
Horrible story. Winick is very hit and miss. I liked his Batman(until the last issue), and he's had some pretty good stories in Outsiders. Both his run on GA and GL had some highs and lows. The Ion storyarc is probably my favorite thing he's ever written.

But this was just laaaaaaaaaame. And we now know that the whole thing was just a weak set-up for a storyline two years in the future. Young Justice deserved better than this.

ds9
03-08-2006, 10:51 AM
Horrible story. Winick is very hit and miss. I liked his Batman(until the last issue), and he's had some pretty good stories in Outsiders. Both his run on GA and GL had some highs and lows. The Ion storyarc is probably my favorite thing he's ever written.

But this was just laaaaaaaaaame. And we now know that the whole thing was just a weak set-up for a storyline two years in the future. Young Justice deserved better than this.Why noone bought it?

Dreg
03-08-2006, 10:53 AM
Young Justice deserved better than this.

With the exception of Slobo, most were more entertaining than the grabbag of gimmicks that was Donna Troy.

Ray G.
03-08-2006, 10:53 AM
Why noone bought it?

It was a fun book with a mid-level audience. DC wanted to punch it up, and bring the Titans name back to its roots. Not a bad idea. But the title deserved better than to end with such a whimper in this mini. There were so many great characters who were just abandoned. Same with the PAD Supergirl. I don't blame DC for canceling them, but the legacy shouldn't be ignored.

WinstonWolf
03-08-2006, 11:01 AM
Wait a tic. There actually WAS a death that was lamer than Hawkeyes? Man. I might have to check this one out just for that.

TheTravis!
03-08-2006, 11:06 AM
yeah, i heard the red hood was okay until the annual came out...
judging from responses on this board Graduation Day is the most detested of his work so far....

If i were to give Winick a second shot, what book?
Green Arrow
Batman: Red Hood
Outsiders
Exiles

Winnick's Exiles is fucking amazing.
His Green Arrow is pretty fun.
His Green Lantern was kind of awful.
His Outsiders looked pretty but had horrible mischaracterizations of almost every character.
I only read part of his Batman run, but I dug it.

ds9
03-08-2006, 11:15 AM
Winnick's Exiles is fucking amazing.
His Green Arrow is pretty fun.
His Green Lantern was kind of awful.
His Outsiders looked pretty but had horrible mischaracterizations of almost every character.
I only read part of his Batman run, but I dug it.The Outsiders was full of new characters for the most part.

Ray G.
03-08-2006, 11:30 AM
The Outsiders was full of new characters for the most part.

True, I give him credit for that. And the last issue was very promising. But like a lot of his work, it's hit and miss.

King of Mars
03-08-2006, 11:37 AM
True, I give him credit for that. And the last issue was very promising. But like a lot of his work, it's hit and miss.I think he's typically more hit than miss but this whole Infinite Crisis thing hasn't done much to help his writing. His Batman has been good but not much else.

ds9
03-08-2006, 11:40 AM
I think he's typically more hit than miss but this whole Infinite Crisis thing hasn't done much to help his writing. His Batman has been good but not much else.Infinite Crisis is great.

King of Mars
03-08-2006, 11:43 AM
Infinite Crisis is great.I'm not bashing Infinite Crisis. Even with the plot holes and the umpteen million crossovers, I still can get into the story. I just think that accomodating Infinite Crisis has had a generally negative effect on Winick's writing.

TheTravis!
03-08-2006, 11:44 AM
The Outsiders was full of new characters for the most part.

Nightwing
Arsenal
Jade
Starfire
Metamorpho

None of these were new characters. And Arsenal was the only one written particularly well.

ds9
03-08-2006, 11:54 AM
Nightwing
Arsenal
Jade
Starfire
Metamorpho

None of these were new characters. And Arsenal was the only one written particularly well.Metmorpho was a clone not the original. Jade only joined late in the book along with starfire

TheTravis!
03-08-2006, 02:40 PM
Metmorpho was a clone not the original. Jade only joined late in the book along with starfire

So what's your point?

And why, exactly,was Metamorpho a clone? Did we NEED two Metamorpho's in the DCU?

Chinaski
03-08-2006, 07:54 PM
So what's your point?

And why, exactly,was Metamorpho a clone? Did we NEED two Metamorpho's in the DCU?



Maybe Judd Winnick just wanted to write a love story about a clone and a robot / cyborg / android girl from the future, who was sent back in time to help kill the superheros, then wasnt, then her super secret programming kicked in and made her want to kill them again, until the love of a clone helped her to see that she could be her own robot / cyborg / android, not under the control of the Brianiac / Luthor team.

Its a love story as old as love itself, its beautiful and unique as a snowflake. All she needed was a talking pie for her sidekick and it would have been perfect.

Dr. Omega
03-09-2006, 12:09 AM
Yeah, I've forgotten most of this. It sucked. Hard. The return of Donna wasn't much better. It really didn't make much sense either.

Outsiders went good for awhile, but has really petered out in the last several months. That old Outsiders two-parter was just crap.

Making Indigo evil after all was stupid. By the time they made that "shocking" revelation, I really could have cared less. About all she did noteworthy in the entire run was to have sex with the lame Metamorpho clone.

Why Donna doesn't get the respect by the rest of the DCU is beyond me. They should regard her like they do Nightwing. She also has the same power level as Wonder Woman.. or at least she did. Who the hell knows now..

Dr. Ω

TheTravis!
03-09-2006, 04:37 AM
Maybe Judd Winnick just wanted to write a love story about a clone and a robot / cyborg / android girl from the future, who was sent back in time to help kill the superheros, then wasnt, then her super secret programming kicked in and made her want to kill them again, until the love of a clone helped her to see that she could be her own robot / cyborg / android, not under the control of the Brianiac / Luthor team.

Its a love story as old as love itself, its beautiful and unique as a snowflake. All she needed was a talking pie for her sidekick and it would have been perfect.

I think I just fell in love with you a little bit.

joespam
03-09-2006, 05:08 AM
So what's your point?

And why, exactly,was Metamorpho a clone? Did we NEED two Metamorpho's in the DCU?Need? No. But I liked the revelation of how he came to be, and the story of how the *real* Metamorpho almost killed him. That alone justified the character for me.