New Avengers 16 Discussion Thread With SPOILERS!!!

[twigglet]

http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59432

Whoa.

[Dreg]

I wonder if Wolverine will be on vacation for this story.

[andrew french]

ha, good ol' bendis.

[Gregory]

But it's just Alpha Flight. Isn't this like kicking past the Zoo Crew?

[justjeffery]

FUCK ALPHA FLIGHT!

Someones been needing to do that to them for years. About damn time!

[twigglet]

FUCK ALPHA FLIGHT!

Someones been needing to do that to them for years. About damn time!

Yay!

I'm actually not being sarcastic when I say I think deaths should happen a lot more in comics.

[Dreg]

Is that two deaths for Northstar, or is he still alive?

[Tom Burgos]

Like Bendis needed another reason to be bashed and hated... :mrgreen:

[ds9]

Are you surprised?

[J. R. Scherer]

Pretty weak.

[RegularJoe]

Yay!

I'm actually not being sarcastic when I say I think deaths should happen a lot more in comics.

given the superhero job description, surprised their mortality rate isn't a lot higher.

[Matt Jay]

I like death in comics, but of course, nobody ever stays dead so it's meaningless. I hate to say it, but people dying in Bendis' books is becoming a little tired.

[Cth]

Bambi vs. Godzilla

and now..

Alpha Flight vs. Meteor Ite!

[Gregory]

Alpha Flight vs. Meteor Ite!

If A > B > C, the team could get beat by a Toyota Tacoma.

[Supajoe]

whee!!!

[Cth]

If A > B > C, the team could get beat by a Toyota Tacoma.

Is it too late to request this in TheKraken's 'I'll draw for you" thread?

[Cth]

FYI - New Avengers #16 preview is up - first 2 pages:

http://popcultureshock.com/pcs/gallery.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=15639&g2_GALLERYSID=d1dc9a25ee4652a2e14a663d2f4d7f5b

[A.Huerta]

Thats the craziest fight scene I've EVER seen!

If you're going to kill some peeps do it in style at least.

[RODGER]

bryne is going to be sooooooo pissed....lol

[Raphael J]

I'm tempted to sign up for Byrne's forum just to post that.

I'll wait till I read the issue tomorrow to see if they're actually dead and if it's as bad as people are/are going to make it out to be.

[Scott JB]

I get so turned on by the idea of Alpha Flight dying a horrific death.

Seriously, Fuck Alpha Flight.

[Evan the Shaggy]

Wait isn't Puck immortal or some shit?

[twigglet]

I like death in comics, but of course, nobody ever stays dead so it's meaningless. I hate to say it, but people dying in Bendis' books is becoming a little tired.

How can completly different deaths become tired?

And he hasn't killed anyone since Avengers Diss has he?

[WinterRose]

http://www.newsday.com/media/photo/2005-01/15935318.jpg
I... HAVE
NO BENDIS!!!

Seriously, man. Killing them to inflate the lethality of an enemy in a cut-away? That's weak. The situation reversed, that'd be like Daredevil taking a stray bullet to the head from a cop while attempting to foil poorly executed mugging. That was weak. What happened? Did Byrne take a shit in your Cap'n Crunch or something? I love ya like a brother... but you BROKE MY HEART!

Hey... at least some of them are still alive somewhere.

[NickT]

I hope that isn't it, that was a bit pointless.

[Blake Sims]

Im looking forward to the 10 thousand word essay on why Alpha Flight was the most important group of superheroes ever invented.

[Man In Street]

I think that was a cheap death on Bendis's part and was only meant to show how bad ass the new villain is. The best thing to do was have a team of all new characters and kill them off or kill off most of Alpha Flight and then it gives the last character something new to deal with (the murder of his/ her team) and becomes a "secret weapon" for the New Avengers. Also, I think it's funny how the new villain is supposed to be like Korvac when Korvac's never been seen after his initial time in as an Avengers bad guy.

[Cth]

Heh, leave it to Newsarama..

Bendis, I DECLARE JIHAD UPON THEE!
http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59438

Bendis on Flash
Page 1: The Fastest
Page 2: Man
Page 3: Alive
Page 4: (Wally looks at Linda, Linda looks back)
Page 5: (double-page spread of lightning bolt)

--------

Besides, Winterrose, didn't you say you wanted Marvel to make way for the new crowd? Like I said, be careful for what you wish for.

[A.Huerta]

Im looking forward to the 10 thousand word essay on why Alpha Flight was the most important group of superheroes ever invented.


EVery character counts.

[Howlett]

Pretty weak.

[Cth]

EVery character counts.

Although, with the exchange rate, seven Alphans equal one American Avenger ;)

[Blake Sims]

EVery character counts.
I was citing Winter Roses big essay on the New Muntants and the Powers of Kitty Pryde.

[A.Huerta]

Although, with the exchange rate, seven Alphans equal one American Avenger ;)



I guess.:)

[twigglet]

Heh, leave it to Newsarama..

Bendis, I DECLARE JIHAD UPON THEE!
http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59438

Bendis on Flash
Page 1: The Fastest
Page 2: Man
Page 3: Alive
Page 4: (Wally looks at Linda, Linda looks back)
Page 5: (double-page spread of lightning bolt)

--------

Besides, Winterrose, didn't you say you wanted Marvel to make way for the new crowd? Like I said, be careful for what you wish for.

Yeah.

I'm pretty sure Vinny and CnCoyle are joking.

The others in the thread are pretty reasonable aren' t they?

[Man In Street]

Yeah.

I'm pretty sure Vinny and CnCoyle are joking.

The others in the thread are pretty reasonable aren' t they?
Am I in that thread? If so, I'm going to smite you, little boy..... Wait... What the hell does smite mean? Dammit... :moon:

[nihilance]

NEW AVENGERS #16
Written by BRIAN MICHAEL BENDIS
Pencils & Cover by STEVE MCNIVEN
THE COLLECTIVE: Prologue
A very special prologue issue introduces the biggest NEW AVENGERS arc yet! After the horrifying events of House of M the planet Earth has changed beyond description... and thus the Collective is born. That’s right! Its a brand new Marvel threat for the brand new Avengers. Plus, this issue Guest Stars Alpha Flight... in their final battle!!
32 PGS./RATED A ...$2.50

Check out the bold part of the solicitation for this issue. Does dying off panel really constitute "Guest Stars Alpha Flight...in the final battle!!".

[Jono]

I don't really give a shit about Alpha Flight one way or another, but that looked pretty weak. I haven't read the issue yet, so I'll reserve judgement until then.

That said, if they just got steamrolled to make that comet thingy (or whatever the fuck it is) look tough, that's straight up hack work. It's an easy, lazy shortcut. I guess we'll all find out tomorrow one way or another....

[Cth]

I'm guessing there's a word limit on the solicit..

Otherwise, they'd have listed Plus, this issue Guest Stars the lifeless, burnt to a crisp corpses of Alpha Flight... in their final battle (as if you cared)!!!

[Jono]

And if it does turn out that they're dead, then Bendis is officially not allowed to complain about fanboy hate mail. He bitched about the Hawkeye fall out for a fucking year, but at this point I just have to assume that he likes the negative attention.

[Cth]

Did he?

I thought he said he was surprised by it.

If anything he probably hated the "NOT LIKE THIS!" jokes..

"Yea right." (the new catchphrase?)

[Jono]

Did he?

I thought he said he was surprised by it.

If anything he probably hated the "NOT LIKE THIS!" jokes..

"Yea right." (the new catchphrase?)

It seems like he was constantly talking about all the shit he took over it. I doubt he lost any sleep over it or anything, but it seems odd that a guy who just got off the crazed fanboy radar would do something like this again. Maybe he just needed ammo for the Powers letter column...

[Matt Jay]

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/3033/thnxbendis8br.jpg

[changingshades]

I think that was a cheap death on Bendis's part and was only meant to show how bad ass the new villain is. The best thing to do was have a team of all new characters and kill them off or kill off most of Alpha Flight and then it gives the last character something new to deal with (the murder of his/ her team) and becomes a "secret weapon" for the New Avengers. Also, I think it's funny how the new villain is supposed to be like Korvac when Korvac's never been seen after his initial time in as an Avengers bad guy.
you ever read Thunderbolts 50, I think it was?
spolers for a 4 year old book
The spend like a year building up this replacement team that were all analogues to the original make up of the team, and issue 50 had them fight Gravitron and he killed them all in like 3 pages. It was awesome.

[The Zevad]

We only lost * people. We got replacements for the rest.

We only lost 4 characters. We have a spare Mac Hudson/Guardian. We have a spare Puck. We have a spare Shaman. Sadly no spare female Puck II, Vindicator, Sasquatch NOOOOOOOO, and that other kid? What the hell was his name?

[Kefky]

The best part about the whole thing is that newsarama thread! Man, I hope it never ends! That shit is better than cyber sex! :lol:

[WinterRose]

Besides, Winterrose, didn't you say you wanted Marvel to make way for the new crowd? Like I said, be careful for what you wish for.

True. Like I said. Not ALL of them are dead. And I like Elizabeth Twoyoungmen a LOT better than her dad.

[Ray G.]

Honestly, that does seem kind of weak. I'm really looking forward to this storyline, and The Collective seems like a good villain. But killing off an entire team just to make a point? Every character has fans. But never let it be said Bendis doesn't have balls.

[NickT]

We only lost * people. We got replacements for the rest.

We only lost 4 characters. We have a spare Mac Hudson/Guardian. We have a spare Puck. We have a spare Shaman. Sadly no spare female Puck II, Vindicator, Sasquatch NOOOOOOOO, and that other kid? What the hell was his name?
Major Mapleleaf

[Mike McNeely]

I don't think that takes "balls". If that is the way it plays out, then yeah. Pretty weak. Pretty pointless.

[The Zevad]

Major Mapleleaf

Thanks. I recalled. He and Puck II (puck I's daughter) were such a cute couple. Oh well.

[rwsmith]

Hahahahaha! God I love Bendis!

[WinterRose]

And there's also what's left of Beta Flight too. Bendis seems to like the Killgraves. Maybe we'll get to see Kara Killgrave again. I do likes me some Purple Girl. (I will not be calling her persuasion any more than I'll pronounce Demi Moore's name as D'mEEE Moore. Superpretentious crap that is.) And maybe someone will pull Madison Jeffries head out of his ass and fix his head right up after what Weapon X and the Zodiac did to him. And maybe someone will fix up and write some good stories with Aurora now that she's out and about again.

But then... when did Marvel ever make good use of it's b-side characters?

[Cth]

Alpha Flight didn't land on The Collective..
.. The Collective landed on Alpha Flight.

/Malcolm-Xman

[Gregory]

Quoth the Byrne (http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10599&PN=1&totPosts=16): "Couldn't care less."

[J. R. Scherer]

Quoth the Byrne (http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10599&PN=1&totPosts=16): "Couldn't care less."
He's said before that never liked Alpha Flight or working on the book, so no big surprise there.

[Gregory]

He's said before that never liked Alpha Flight or working on the book, so no big surprise there.

Maybe it's a testament to his skills, but I found his run on AF to be a great read. Layered subplots, good visuals, and a great twist in the first 12 issues. Imagine what he could have done had he liked the group beyond their debut in X-Men.

[J. R. Scherer]

Maybe it's a testament to his skills, but I found his run on AF to be a great read. Layered subplots, good visuals, and a great twist in the first 12 issues. Imagine what he could have done had he liked the group beyond their debut in X-Men.
Oh, I agree. I especially like the issue where Sasquatch fights the Super Skrull.

[Jim T.]

Having just read it, I think there's a lot of room for the "not dead" option. There's no severed body parts lying around (like when Superboy went to town), there's just a bunch of people laying around, 2 of whom have their eyes open, which would seem to be the source of the "dead" bitching. Havent' we all read enough comics to know that dead is never really dead?

[Dreg]

Were both of the Hudsons in the attack? I can never keep up with the roster and costume changes.

[twigglet]

Quoth the Byrne (http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10599&PN=1&totPosts=16): "Couldn't care less."

Well it's the best response we could of hoped for :p

I wish the others on that thread would folllow suit.

[Jim T.]

Were both of the Hudsons in the attack? I can never keep up with the roster and costume changes.

There's a man and a woman in variants of the Guardian armor (one's red & white and the other is red & blue) so I guess the answer is "yes"

[Dreg]

There's a man and a woman in variants of the Guardian armor (one's red & white and the other is red & blue) so I guess the answer is "yes"

It might not be healthy for Captain America to play the wholesomeness card with Wolverine when he finds their killer.

[J. R. Scherer]

Well it's the best response we could of hoped for :p

I wish the others on that thread would folllow suit.

I dunno. I have to agree 100% with this:

"Who cares?...Alpha Flight by Byrne is the one that counts!!!"

[Mister Mets]

Don't know if anyone posted this, but I do like John Byrne's comments on the events.

http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10599&PN=1&TPN=2
C'mon, guys! Quitcher gripin'! When I killed Terrax, I thought I had come up with the most un-doable comic book death this side of Uncle Ben. I mean, hey! Consumed by the Power Cosmic! How much deader can you get?

And how long did it take for another writer to bring Terrax back by not more strenuous an expedient than "I got better"?

This "death", if "real", could be undone in two panels. Three, tops.

I care not.

[Raphael J]

Spoilers





I read the issue and I have to say that it was the weakest issue of the series so far.

When people say that Bendis pads, or Bendis does decompression, I think this issue is what they mean. Bendis books are a slow burn and like to take adequate time to prepare and set up the oncoming story. Normally I'm all for it, but this time it didn't sit well with me.

While the issue had great dialogue and a very intimidating enemy, I just didn't like the execution. I didn't like the eight splash pages at the beginning, especially the first two. That opening page, the recap one, told us what we needed to know already and I, personally, didn't need to see the threat arrive in such detail. For me, the story started way too early. I got too much of the build up and not enough of the story that we are presumabley going to get in the next issue. Also, clearing up a few of those early pages could've possibly allowed for an extension to the Alpha Flight scene (while we're on the subject of Alpha Flight, I really don't think they're dead. Just incapacitated). I assume that he didn't do this because he wanted to show the futility of going up against the "Collective".

Lastly, not including the recap page up front and the Kickers Inc. preview, there was only twenty one pages of story. I personally would've enjoyed an extra page of something, but whatever.

I'm in no way saying it was bad title, or poorly written, but I really do think that we got into the story too early. There were a few pages, that for me, could've been cut and I still would've come away from the story with what I came away with when they were in. As usual, McNiven was outstanding. I'm really looking forward to seeing what he's going to do with Civil War.

[innocentboy]

i've got no complaints. thought it was cool.
beautiful McNiven art too.

that that running guy? never read a comic with him, but read in a Marvel Handbook about some cosmic guy that does nothing but run and race with Silver Surfer or something? if it is, does that mean we're getting Silver Surfer in New Avengers soon?

loving Agent Hill too. never really liked 616 Nick Fury, so here's hoping he gets the boot and we get the booty (Agent Hill)

was loving the map pages spread too when she's arguing with the president and you just see that radar view of the running man tearing across the map

[marco19]

i felt the exact same way about this issue...I had no problem with any of it ...MCNIVEN on art is always great, the new villain seems kinda cool and alpha flight being wiped out is not gonna make be shed a tear but the new avengers arent even in this issue at all,,,,,,,I think this book would be better based on how Bendis writes his stories if it shipped twice a month like Ultimate spidey.....and through 16 issuse weve already had like 4 different artists and having a variety rotating artists on arcs doesnt bother me and i dont think would mess up the flow as much as people might think

[Cth]

I can see why people'd have an issue with the opening pacing and the lack of Avengers..

That having been said, it was very manga-ish with the slow burn.

[innocentboy]

for real? Manga-ish?
how you mean?

[modungo]

I think Bendis is gonna keep offin' characters until one of them well recieved. so let me say, great job!

[RODGER]

very weak set up issue.....next issue should kick all kinds of ass!!!!

[Ryan Elliott]

Good issue. Great art.

[Cth]

for real? Manga-ish?
how you mean?

The slow establishing shot, usually from a grand scale moving the focus in more and more until you focus on the main character.

Look at the opening of Akira for a basic example. Establish a huge grand scale and then drop the reader right into the middle of the action.

Of course, you could say it's cinematic as well. Since it's the comics medium, I went for that comparison instead.

[TheManWithoutFear]

I stick up for it. I loved it. I loved every bit of it as a prelude to this arc. I had a slight problem with the "oh Alpha Flight is dead. Carrying on now..." but I thought their death was was awesome. Art was top notch too.

Loved how the opening page was the ending of HoM.

[mayhemspider]

this is the first issue of the series i didn't purchase, despite the seemingly beautiful art. bendis just has a way of executing a great and suspensiful set up, but never actually delivers in a satisfying way. like secret war, or house of M, there was a good amount of slow blow build up, which is great, but thats all there was. you can't just have a bunch of build up that leads nowhere. both the stories i mentioned before had no resolution, and really just served as intros to other stories. bendis' weak point for me has always been the resolving of a story, even in ultimate spidey. i mean, did the venom arc even have an ending? overall, whats the point of buying a comic if it will never end, and nothing ever occurs except setting up awesome events that never happen? i can see why marvel lets him write most of their books, cause no matter what, if you want a whole story, you have to keep buying stuff! (decimation, civil war, spider-woman origin, etc)

[Raphael J]

this is the first issue of the series i didn't purchase, despite the seemingly beautiful art. bendis just has a way of executing a great and suspensiful set up, but never actually delivers in a satisfying way. like secret war, or house of M, there was a good amount of slow blow build up, which is great, but thats all there was. you can't just have a bunch of build up that leads nowhere. both the stories i mentioned before had no resolution, and really just served as intros to other stories. bendis' weak point for me has always been the resolving of a story, even in ultimate spidey. i mean, did the venom arc even have an ending? overall, whats the point of buying a comic if it will never end, and nothing ever occurs except setting up awesome events that never happen? i can see why marvel lets him write most of their books, cause no matter what, if you want a whole story, you have to keep buying stuff! (decimation, civil war, spider-woman origin, etc)

I have to disagree with you here. Bendis does deliver on his stories, in a pretty satisfying way. Secret War is one of my favorite minis and I personally enjoyed House of M. Decimation was not Bendis' work, nor is Civil War. To add upon a story, as those two "events" is a natural part of comic storytelling. And I really don't get why Spider-Woman Origin is up there. It doesn't really tie into anything and serves the same purpose as the other Origin books have. It's just a great title that's only improved with each new issue.

I think you're generalizing here a bit here, because Bendis, if anything, is a closer.

[innocentboy]

The slow establishing shot, usually from a grand scale moving the focus in more and more until you focus on the main character.

Look at the opening of Akira for a basic example. Establish a huge grand scale and then drop the reader right into the middle of the action.

Of course, you could say it's cinematic as well. Since it's the comics medium, I went for that comparison instead.
thanks for clearing that up ... though i can't say i've read enough Manga to really know they do that alot. do remember Akira starting off like that though

[mayhemspider]

I think Bendis is gonna keep offin' characters until one of them well recieved. so let me say, great job!
:lol:

[Juggernaut]

Please,Please for the love of all that is comics may the Sentry actually do something in the next issue that requires more than just saying one sentence. The aquaman from superfriends impersonation is really getting played out on Sentry.

Please Bendis,just one action scene with him since the last one was way back in issue 2 when he ripped carnage in half.

[nihilance]

Don't know if anyone posted this, but I do like John Byrne's comments on the events.

http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10599&PN=1&TPN=2
C'mon, guys! Quitcher gripin'! When I killed Terrax, I thought I had come up with the most un-doable comic book death this side of Uncle Ben. I mean, hey! Consumed by the Power Cosmic! How much deader can you get?

And how long did it take for another writer to bring Terrax back by not more strenuous an expedient than "I got better"?

This "death", if "real", could be undone in two panels. Three, tops.

I care not.
Why bother with 2 or 3 panels? Why not just have them come back to life off panel the same way they met their demise?

In fact...for all we know that's exactly what happened. Shaman was playing possum and revived everyone from their suspended animation between the next to last page and the last page. ALPHA FLIGHT LIVES!!!

[bartleby]

Seriously, man. Killing them to inflate the lethality of an enemy in a cut-away? That's weak. The situation reversed, that'd be like Daredevil taking a stray bullet to the head from a cop while attempting to foil poorly executed mugging. That was weak. What happened? Did Byrne take a shit in your Cap'n Crunch or something? I love ya like a brother... but you BROKE MY HEART!

Hey... at least some of them are still alive somewhere.


You just better hope the Avengers take care of this guy before he gets ahold of the New Mutants.

[Vonn Hennigar]

What the Fuck! Killing an established team Off F-ing Panel.
What exactly does this accomplish? Take a cue from DC when they kill guys off they make it matter no matter how minor.
Bah! I'm off to read my John Byrne Back Issues

[Raphael J]

Something I noticed while reading the issue.

The energy actually hits a man in this Alaskan post office. The "energy guy" didn't come from space, rather it hit him and he absorbed all of it.

[Randomus]

At least Sasquatch owned some bitches on his way out.

[DeleriumTremens]

What the Fuck! Killing an established team Off F-ing Panel.
What exactly does this accomplish? Take a cue from DC when they kill guys off they make it matter no matter how minor.
Bah! I'm off to read my John Byrne Back Issues
A) Didn't people rip on DC for doing that on panel so graphically.
B) From what I see in the panel I see nothing to suggest that they are really dead.

[nihilance]

A) Didn't people rip on DC for doing that on panel so graphically.
B) From what I see in the panel I see nothing to suggest that they are really dead.
People lying blood on ground with eyes open = dead.

[A.Huerta]

I skimmed thru it and nothing happened appearantly; they could be dead or just knocked the HELL out. I agree with what Raphael said, looks like some energy force took control of a guy. It wouldve been cool at least if there were an intense battle with AF instead of all those splash pages in the beginning. Ah well.

[NickT]

Take a cue from DC when they kill guys off they make it matter no matter how minor.
IC #1 and IC #4 disagree IMO :)

[innocentboy]

notice on the credits page there's a wierd shaped shadow on the earth?
doesn't look like the moons shadow ....

hmmm .....

[Will]

Spoilers





I read the issue and I have to say that it was the weakest issue of the series so far.

When people say that Bendis pads, or Bendis does decompression, I think this issue is what they mean. Bendis books are a slow burn and like to take adequate time to prepare and set up the oncoming story. Normally I'm all for it, but this time it didn't sit well with me.

While the issue had great dialogue and a very intimidating enemy, I just didn't like the execution. I didn't like the eight splash pages at the beginning, especially the first two. That opening page, the recap one, told us what we needed to know already and I, personally, didn't need to see the threat arrive in such detail. For me, the story started way too early. I got too much of the build up and not enough of the story that we are presumabley going to get in the next issue. Also, clearing up a few of those early pages could've possibly allowed for an extension to the Alpha Flight scene (while we're on the subject of Alpha Flight, I really don't think they're dead. Just incapacitated). I assume that he didn't do this because he wanted to show the futility of going up against the "Collective".

Lastly, not including the recap page up front and the Kickers Inc. preview, there was only twenty one pages of story. I personally would've enjoyed an extra page of something, but whatever.

I'm in no way saying it was bad title, or poorly written, but I really do think that we got into the story too early. There were a few pages, that for me, could've been cut and I still would've come away from the story with what I came away with when they were in. As usual, McNiven was outstanding. I'm really looking forward to seeing what he's going to do with Civil War.

I pretty much felt the same way.

This whole prologue should be the beginning of a double sized issue or something, not it's own comic. While I loved the dialogue and the art, it felt VERY padded and was an all too breezy a read.

I sincerely hope Brian will write fight scenes within the next few issues because while I understood and even liked that both Spider-Woman issues were more expository, 3 issues in a row of that just kills me as a reader. This sorta thing works for DD but for an Avengers title I expect a bit more bang for my $2.50. I'd give the book an above average score of 7/10 but that's being generous for the amount of stuff we got here. C'mon Bendis throw us a bone for some more action dude!

[Flonk]

:wave: