Nanites

[Criden]

http://library.thinkquest.org/10122/media/diagram/NANITES.GIF

http://users.chariot.net.au/~marcof/nanotechwarrior.JPG

http://lost-media.com/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/16612/normal_Ekoc.JPG

http://sier.home.comcast.net/Lost_Monster2.gif

I am very very very happy for putting up with everyone's nanite cracks with a smile on my face. That smile is now a shit-eating grin. :D

[Ray G.]

You're a nanite! :mad:

[MattJohnson]

Guess who still doesn't think it's nanites

[Thudpucker]

The cloud was reading Ecko's mind.

Not nanites. It's a psychic projection.

[Criden]

The cloud was reading Ecko's mind.

Not nanites. It's a psychic projection.

Psychic projections don't create tree-uprooting physical forms, by any stretch of the imagination. He breathed in nanites and they scanned his mind, to determine if he was a threat. Hence, security system.

[Thudpucker]

Psychic projections don't create tree-uprooting physical forms, by any stretch of the imagination. He breathed in nanites and they scanned his mind, to determine if he was a threat. Hence, security system.

There are solid psychic projections in comics and sci-fi all the time. Ever see one of the best Sci-fi movies ever, Forbidden Planet?

[Criden]

There are solid psychic projections in comics and sci-fi all the time. Ever see one of the best Sci-fi movies ever, Forbidden Planet?

This wasn't solid. This was a cloud of black smoke, which is what happens when you have a ton of nanites together. Do a google search.

"Countermeasures: nukes win. The only real countermeasure against a nuclear weapon is to try to shoot it down in flight. With only a few minutes of warning at most, there won't be sufficient warning to evacuate citizens or move the bulk of the population into shelters, assuming enough shelters exist. A cloud of nanobots, on the other hand, might not even be detected en route. However, if they are detected, they can be easily neutralized. A nuclear airburst in the midst of a nanobot cloud would vapourize most of them and disable the rest, with minimal fallout and very localized collateral damage. The electromagnetic pulse alone should neutralize them. This leads us to the second countermeasure, which is reactive rather than proactive: nanobots, unlike nuclear weapons, can be stymied by countermeasures even after they reach the target. Non-nuclear EMP weapons (yes, we're already developing them) could clear large areas of nanobots without killing anyone or destroying cities, high-voltage ionizing field circuits in air vents could protect sealed shelters, armoured vehicles, etc., and electromagnetic pulses could even be used to treat victims after infection."

[Smokinblues]

i hope it's not nanites. i'd like to think the writers of the show would be better than that

[JABSEN]

Centipede?

[Criden]

i hope it's not nanites. i'd like to think the writers of the show would be better than that

how's that? they already didn't even know what was in the hatch last april or so. so why do you have these expectations of them?

[Criden]

Centipede?

it's a diagram of nanites. nanipede.

[Smokinblues]

how's that? they already didn't even know what was in the hatch last april or so. so why do you have these expectations of them?

i guess i shouldn't

nanites is such a bullshit way out though.

[MattJohnson]

Max, if it turns out to be nanites, I'll mail you $5 the following Thursday.

[Criden]

i guess i shouldn't

nanites is such a bullshit way out though.

maybe. but what wouldn't be?

[Thudpucker]

This wasn't solid. This was a cloud of black smoke, which is what happens when you have a ton of nanites together. Do a google search.

I was with the nanite theory until it read Ecko's mind. Then no way.

So much other psychic stuff is going on - Walt and the stuff he manifests, projecting himself as a vision ect. Clare's baby and the palm reader. The lotto numbers and all the bad shit that happened to Hugo and the guy who told him the numbers. The Horse that appears to Kate, and Sawyer channeling the dead stepdad. The voices that everyone hears in the woods. Jack seeing his dead Father.

Hell, Locke walking!

All of that is nanites? The stuff that happened before they got to the island is nanites? Nope, not buying it.

I am leaning heavily towards the paranormal phenomenon side now. They opened a gateway to another dimension, and something came thru. It's gathering people to the island who have psychic ability. The smoke cloud is either a projection or a creature that was set loose.

The only real question is - who is running things? Is the experiment still under control, or is it running wild now?

[Smokinblues]

maybe. but what wouldn't be?

Fantasy Island

[Criden]

Max, if it turns out to be nanites, I'll mail you $5 the following Thursday.

Matt, I won't accept your money. You sent me those Carnivale episodes, and that's above and beyond the call of duty. If I'm wrong about nanites, though, I'll send you $5.

[Criden]

Fantasy Island

Hahaha.

[MattJohnson]

Matt, I won't accept your money. You sent me those Carnivale episodes, and that's above and beyond the call of duty. If I'm wrong about nanites, though, I'll send you $5.

Unacceptable. And besides, you pimped Benioff on me, and that was very good. Which reminds me, my "paying it forward" is Nicholas Montemarano (I think that's right). See if you can find "The November Fifteen" somewhere.

[Thudpucker]

how's that? they already didn't even know what was in the hatch last april or so. so why do you have these expectations of them?

Yea, the writers are obviously pulling stuff out of thier ass as they go along. The interviews all say what a rush job the show has been, and how writing and re-writing occured constantly.

It's probably still a very fluid and evolving plot I bet, as they take on more writers like Loeb the big picture we havn't seen will keep changing. I just hope they don't screw it up by making the end results not match the details.

[Smokinblues]

Yea, the writers are obviously pulling stuff out of thier ass as they go along. The interviews all say what a rush job the show has been, and how writing and re-writing occured constantly.

It's probably still a very fluid and evolving plot I bet, as they take on more writers like Loeb the big picture we havn't seen will keep changing. I just hope they don't screw it up by making the end results not match the details.

i fully expect kryptonite and web shooters by the end of the season

[Thudpucker]

i fully expect kryptonite and web shooters by the end of the season

Loeb will 'beef up' the action and crank up the tension, especially the sexual tension. That was his big thing on Smallville - unresolved angst and pointless fistfights. :surrend:

[Bradford]

I think there are two things going on in the background that kind of explain why we see supernatural things sometimes and sci-fi stuff at others. I think the Island is some sort of mystical entitity or has some special mystical pull to it because of that some scientists did some wacky sci-fi crap on there. What we see on the show might sometimes be fully because of the islands supernatural weirdness at other times because of the scientists wacky crap and then others a combo of both.

[Scottie]

It's not nanites. And if, at any point, it WAS nanites, the writers of the show have seen by now that half the Internet thinks its nanites, and will come up with something different so as to shock everyone.

[Simps]

Somewhere, Jonny Z's head is exploding.

Does anyone even actually know what nanites are/what they can do? Other than them being the "go to" answer because it seems like they would explain the cloud?

[Thudpucker]

It's not nanites. And if, at any point, it WAS nanites, the writers of the show have seen by now that half the Internet thinks its nanites, and will come up with something different so as to shock everyone.

I think the smoke cloud will be a minor detail in the overall picture.

[moonspider]

:confused:

[Scottie]

I think the smoke cloud will be a minor detail in the overall picture.

Me too. Plus, I can't really see how "nanites" can explain a Nigerian drug plane being on the island, the presence of polar bears, the fact that all the characters are connected somehow... etc.

[Briomega]

I think the smoke cloud will be a minor detail in the overall picture.

Yeah, people are putting too much into the monster thing. It's just a security system guarding a specific area of the island. That's all. The only importance is what it's guarding and how the islanders get past it.

[The Human Target]

Matt, I won't accept your money. You sent me those Carnivale episodes, and that's above and beyond the call of duty. If I'm wrong about nanites, though, I'll send you $5.

I however, could use five bucks and will gladly take it for comign up with nanites at roughly the same time as Max.

[The Human Target]

Somewhere, Jonny Z's head is exploding.

Does anyone even actually know what nanites are/what they can do? Other than them being the "go to" answer because it seems like they would explain the cloud?

I write a college research paper and speech on them.

So I guess I'm full of shit.

I'm sure the island is Jesus or that big talking island from the X-Men or an alien ship or something.

[Briomega]

I write a college research paper and speech on them.

So I guess I'm full of shit.

I'm sure the island is Jesus or that big talking island from the X-Men or an alien ship or something.

Dude, I called Krakatoa months ago. So, you'll all owe me when I'm right. :thumb:

[The Human Target]

Dude, I called Krakatoa months ago. So, you'll all owe me when I'm right. :thumb:

I hate you. :)

[Simps]

I write a college research paper and speech on them.

So I guess I'm full of shit.

I'm sure the island is Jesus or that big talking island from the X-Men or an alien ship or something.

A) Oh I see, you're being condescending. Well considering you hadn't posted in the thread, nor are you providing evidence to make your point, or why nanites somehow makes anymore sense than any other bullshit guess, I'm going to go ahead and say I don't give a shit.

2) So your research and speeches talked alot about how nanites grab people, murder them and display seemingly psychic projections?

D) It's amazing how tough/smart everyone is on the internet. Quit acting like a tool.

[Criden]

After My Name Is Earl and a phone conversation with the likes of Jose "JABSEN" Baez, I'm ready to field your questions:


I was with the nanite theory until it read Ecko's mind. Then no way.

So much other psychic stuff is going on - Walt and the stuff he manifests, projecting himself as a vision ect. Clare's baby and the palm reader. The lotto numbers and all the bad shit that happened to Hugo and the guy who told him the numbers. The Horse that appears to Kate, and Sawyer channeling the dead stepdad. The voices that everyone hears in the woods. Jack seeing his dead Father.

Hell, Locke walking!

All of that is nanites? The stuff that happened before they got to the island is nanites? Nope, not buying it.

I am leaning heavily towards the paranormal phenomenon side now. They opened a gateway to another dimension, and something came thru. It's gathering people to the island who have psychic ability. The smoke cloud is either a projection or a creature that was set loose.

The only real question is - who is running things? Is the experiment still under control, or is it running wild now?

Ok, Locke walking is a result of nanites in his legs. Seriously. Read New X-Men, it's in there. This wouldn't be the first time this is done.

Manifestions on the island are the sickness, the nanite infection. Nanites in peoples minds making them see things and relaying information.

The creators of the show have said that the numbers and intersecting backstories may not be explained.

The palm reader stuff could easily be a red herring.

The lotto numbers could be the activation code for the nanites--this also explains the plane crash.

I don't think dimension-traveling creatures falls under the realm of science.


Yea, the writers are obviously pulling stuff out of thier ass as they go along. The interviews all say what a rush job the show has been, and how writing and re-writing occured constantly.

It's probably still a very fluid and evolving plot I bet, as they take on more writers like Loeb the big picture we havn't seen will keep changing. I just hope they don't screw it up by making the end results not match the details.

Exactly. Which is not how something like this show should necessarily be.


I think there are two things going on in the background that kind of explain why we see supernatural things sometimes and sci-fi stuff at others. I think the Island is some sort of mystical entitity or has some special mystical pull to it because of that some scientists did some wacky sci-fi crap on there. What we see on the show might sometimes be fully because of the islands supernatural weirdness at other times because of the scientists wacky crap and then others a combo of both.

The writers have already said everything can be explained by science and not the supernatural. The "scientist[']s wacky crap" is there, apparently, though.


It's not nanites. And if, at any point, it WAS nanites, the writers of the show have seen by now that half the Internet thinks its nanites, and will come up with something different so as to shock everyone.

Not necessarily. Half the internet does not think it's nanites. You guys seem to think it's not nanites. The people at TWOP don't think it's nanites.


Me too. Plus, I can't really see how "nanites" can explain a Nigerian drug plane being on the island, the presence of polar bears, the fact that all the characters are connected somehow... etc.

The Nigerian drug plane goes off course. The radio signal may have intercepted "4815162342" and been drawn there as a result.

The polar bears could be the nanites forming a fake being. Or they could have been in the Zoology sector of Dharma.


I think the smoke cloud will be a minor detail in the overall picture.

Maybe so.


Yeah, people are putting too much into the monster thing. It's just a security system guarding a specific area of the island. That's all. The only importance is what it's guarding and how the islanders get past it.

Possibly.


Somewhere, Jonny Z's head is exploding.

Does anyone even actually know what nanites are/what they can do? Other than them being the "go to" answer because it seems like they would explain the cloud?

Yes. Why be so condescending? [ETA: I wrote this before seeing the post above me. Heh.]


I write a college research paper and speech on them.

So I guess I'm full of shit.

I'm sure the island is Jesus or that big talking island from the X-Men or an alien ship or something.

Hah.

[Briomega]

I hate you. :)

Pfthh, why you hatin? ;-)

Seriously, though, I do think there may be nanites involved now. I just don't think they are as heavily involved as you guys seem to think. I think the monster may have nanotech but I don't think it's the cause of everything going on.

So, consider me a half-convert. :D

[Simps]

Yes. Why be so condescending? [ETA: I wrote this before seeing the post above me. Heh.]

How is that condescending? I asked if anyone knows that they actually are and what they can do. Citing an issue of New X-Men where Magneto uses nanites hardly qualifies as actual research, and I'm genuinely curious why people think nanites the cloud/monster. For all I know there's actual research that shows that nanites can form solid beings, read minds, project images, and kill people, I couldn't say, but there seems to be people staking their lives on the fact that NANITES are the answer, and I wondered why.

[Criden]

Pfthh, why you hatin? ;-)

Seriously, though, I do think there may be nanites involved now. I just don't think they are as heavily involved as you guys seem to think. I think the monster may have nanotech but I don't think it's the cause of everything going on.

So, consider me a half-convert. :D

http://trashotron.com/agony/images/smith-one_of_us.jpg

:D

[Briomega]

http://trashotron.com/agony/images/smith-one_of_us.jpg

:D

Ha!

[copypastepuke]

could they be PSYCHIC NANITES?

[Criden]

How is that condescending? I asked if anyone knows that they actually are and what they can do. Citing an issue of New X-Men where Magneto uses nanites hardly qualifies as actual research, and I'm genuinely curious why people think nanites the cloud/monster. For all I know there's actual research that shows that nanites can form solid beings, read minds, project images, and kill people, I couldn't say, but there seems to be people staking their lives on the fact that NANITES are the answer, and I wondered why.

Oh, sorry, Ben. I dunno--your post just SOUNDED condescending. But I digress, it can be easy to "mishear" a post online.

I did do actual research on Google and Wikipedia (I actually went to Wikipedia first and then realized that it's not necessarily to be trusted). The New X-Men thing was just to place it into a familiar context for people. I figured people would just realize that Grant Morrison does a great deal of research himself. But yes, I have researched it and its entirely plausible.

[alexlannin]

Doesn't Tony Stark make his condoms out of them?

[joespam]

Me too. Plus, I can't really see how "nanites" can explain a Nigerian drug plane being on the island, the presence of polar bears, the fact that all the characters are connected somehow... etc.

I shut up about nanites the minute the producers claimed that they weren't it, but that's the only reason I don't think they could be behind a lot of what's going on. They're like the Grand Lost Unification theory.

Books like James Alan Gardner's Trapped, Neal Stephenson's The Diamond Age[i/] and Michael Creighton's [i]Prey all have stories that deal with nanotech to some degree and how it could accomplish the things below.

Negatives:
Producers say nay.
Who or what made them, and freaking how with 50s, 60s, or 70s tech when we can't make them today?

Positives:
The producers have stated that all the goings on in the show are explainable through science-fact extrapolation, rather than supernatural, means.
If they're loose in the world not just the island they could explain:
- the power of the numbers to affect reality by
being some kind of command/control code.
- coincidences of everyone getting on flight 815
- Jack's wife's miracle spinal recovery
- walt's (and Claire's psychic's) abilities
But they also could be behind the following:
- walt's spectral appearances
- Locke's legs suddenly working
- Jack's dad's corpse walking around
- Ethan's superstrength
- the mysterious 'infection' mentioned by Rousseau
- the actual physical crashing of the Nigerian plane and Flight 815

I agree that it's a little out there to think they could be responsible for the polar bears, but if the polar bears are somehow a manifestation of Walt's, and they're were enough of them, and they were sophisticated enough, they COULD bunch together and mimic a polar bear. I personally think that's too much of a stretch given the hints we've been given that the bears were brought by Dharma (or someone else) for some reason.

[copypastepuke]

This wasn't solid. This was a cloud of black smoke, which is what happens when you have a ton of nanites together. Do a google search.

"Countermeasures: nukes win. The only real countermeasure against a nuclear weapon is to try to shoot it down in flight. With only a few minutes of warning at most, there won't be sufficient warning to evacuate citizens or move the bulk of the population into shelters, assuming enough shelters exist. A cloud of nanobots, on the other hand, might not even be detected en route. However, if they are detected, they can be easily neutralized. A nuclear airburst in the midst of a nanobot cloud would vapourize most of them and disable the rest, with minimal fallout and very localized collateral damage. The electromagnetic pulse alone should neutralize them. This leads us to the second countermeasure, which is reactive rather than proactive: nanobots, unlike nuclear weapons, can be stymied by countermeasures even after they reach the target. Non-nuclear EMP weapons (yes, we're already developing them) could clear large areas of nanobots without killing anyone or destroying cities, high-voltage ionizing field circuits in air vents could protect sealed shelters, armoured vehicles, etc., and electromagnetic pulses could even be used to treat victims after infection."

welp. i am a convert
i was a nanite agnostic before...
now i am a nanite advocate.

[Briomega]

I shut up about nanites the minute the producers claimed that they weren't it, but that's the only reason I don't think they could be behind a lot of what's going on. They're like the Grand Lost Unification theory.

Books like James Alan Gardner's Trapped, Neal Stephenson's The Diamond Age[i/] and Michael Creighton's [i]Prey all have stories that deal with nanotech to some degree and how it could accomplish the things below.

Negatives:
Producers say nay.
Who or what made them, and freaking how with 50s, 60s, or 70s tech when we can't make them today?

Positives:
The producers have stated that all the goings on in the show are explainable through science-fact extrapolation, rather than supernatural, means.
If they're loose in the world not just the island they could explain:
- the power of the numbers to affect reality by
being some kind of command/control code.
- coincidences of everyone getting on flight 815
- Jack's wife's miracle spinal recovery
- walt's (and Claire's psychic's) abilities
But they also could be behind the following:
- walt's spectral appearances
- Locke's legs suddenly working
- Jack's dad's corpse walking around
- Ethan's superstrength
- the mysterious 'infection' mentioned by Rousseau
- the actual physical crashing of the Nigerian plane and Flight 815

I agree that it's a little out there to think they could be responsible for the polar bears, but if the polar bears are somehow a manifestation of Walt's, and they're were enough of them, and they were sophisticated enough, they COULD bunch together and mimic a polar bear. I personally think that's too much of a stretch given the hints we've been given that the bears were brought by Dharma (or someone else) for some reason.

See, that's the main reason I don't think the nanites are involved with everything. They can do a lot, I accept that from Criden's and THT's past explanations. but it would be too lame for that to be the overall explanation for everything. For them to reveal that hey, everything weird that's ever happened, all the things we can't explain, all the things are nanites... nobody would accept that.

Them being the monster (or security system more correctly) and explaining why it can be smoke but make mechanical sounds and move trees and grab people, etc. That's believable and is something that, once explained, people could acccept.

[The Human Target]

See, that's the main reason I don't think the nanites are involved with everything. They can do a lot, I accept that from Criden's and THT's past explanations. but it would be too lame for that to be the overall explanation for everything. For them to reveal that hey, everything weird that's ever happened, all the things we can't explain, all the things are nanites... nobody would accept that.

Them being the monster (or security system more correctly) and explaining why it can be smoke but make mechanical sounds and move trees and grab people, etc. That's believable and is something that, once explained, people could acccept.

So what could people accept it being?

[The Human Target]

A) Oh I see, you're being condescending. Well considering you hadn't posted in the thread, nor are you providing evidence to make your point, or why nanites somehow makes anymore sense than any other bullshit guess, I'm going to go ahead and say I don't give a shit.

2) So your research and speeches talked alot about how nanites grab people, murder them and display seemingly psychic projections?

D) It's amazing how tough/smart everyone is on the internet. Quit acting like a tool.

Thats odd, I was chatting with people and you charged in and started acted like a prick nstead of asking a question or joining in the conversation.

It's amazing how tough/smart everyone is on the internet. Quit acting like a tool.

[Briomega]

So what could people accept it being?

I think they'd be more willing to accept that there's someone behind everything and not something. Whether it turns out to be the Others, or the Dharma scientists, or Hanso himself, or Walt for that matter.

That someone may be using various scientific or even paranormal tools to get results. But, I think as long as there's a someone and not an all-encompassing "thing", people will be more accepting.

[The Human Target]

I think they'd be more willing to accept that there's someone behind everything and not something. Whether it turns out to be the Others, or the Dharma scientists, or Hanso himself, or Walt for that matter.

That someone may be using various scientific or even paranormal tools to get results. But, I think as long as there's a someone and not an all-encompassing "thing", people will be more accepting.

I see it being a later stronger of an explination if there is one cause and not several. If their is no unifying force for everything that has happened, then it really has to be more than a dozen different things. That, to me, is an insane amount of various things for the viewer to understand.

And, while I'm personally leaning toward nanotech with little human involvement, there very well may be people behind it.

[joespam]

How is that condescending? I asked if anyone knows that they actually are and what they can do. Citing an issue of New X-Men where Magneto uses nanites hardly qualifies as actual research, and I'm genuinely curious why people think nanites the cloud/monster. For all I know there's actual research that shows that nanites can form solid beings, read minds, project images, and kill people, I couldn't say, but there seems to be people staking their lives on the fact that NANITES are the answer, and I wondered why.

There is no actual research. Nanites are science fiction at this point and probably for a good long while yet. But:

Picture a robot the size of a flea (or smaller).
It can collect energy, so that when its batteries run low it won't 'die'.
It can build copies of itself.
It can transfer data/instructions to other nanites.
It can fly, hover, and move towards a target with purpose.
It can sense in some rudimentary way.
It can be programmed/and or follow some basic rules.
It can display some number of colors, like a pixel or LED.

I think several thousand (million) of these things floating around together would look a lot like a cloud of smoke if they were all black.

Picture a floating swarm with a resolution of 1028 x 1028 nanites. If each nanite can change color independently, do you understand how they could show pictures?

If enough of them stayed grouped together, had the right colors, and they all moved in concert the correct way, they could imitate any living creature.

If someone was infested with nanites that had recorded information, and a cloud was retrieving that information, that could explain the 'mind reading' like we saw this past week. By infested I mean that they are spread throughout someone's body, but not necessarily doing anything but sitting there, recording, say, light coming in from someone's eyes. Or sound coming in someone's ears.

In Michael Creighton's Prey, swarms of things like these were programmed with some behavioristic predator algorithms, and the swarms started hunting and killing people. They worked together, sometimes swarming in human shape to trick their prey, suffocating them by infesting their lungs. Some people were actually being fed on and converted to swarms by slowly being eaten, while this was happening the swarms walked around interacting with other people, pretending to be the human they had infested.

That last bit is a little hand-wavey. I don't really know the mechanism for how nanite swarms would take over physical control of a human being while consuming them and replacing them with itself like the creature in John Carpenter's the Thing, unless it was doing it cell by cell, replacing each cell with a (group of) nanobots that somehow imitated the cells they had eaten. But nobody's saying that anything like that's happened in LOST.

I think I've covered how, in theory, sophisticated enough nanites could "form solid beings, read minds, project images, and kill people," and because there are ways that nanites can do this, and more, of the phenomena we've seen demonstrated in episodes of LOST, I very much like the idea that nanites exist and are active in the show.

Except the Producers have officially denied they are.

[Criden]

Except the Producers have officially denied they are.


Given the fact that the producers change things on a whim, I wouldn't take too much stock in that. Also, they have no qualms about lying.

[Criden]

Doesn't Tony Stark make his condoms out of them?

Yes.


I shut up about nanites the minute the producers claimed that they weren't it, but that's the only reason I don't think they could be behind a lot of what's going on. They're like the Grand Lost Unification theory.

Books like James Alan Gardner's Trapped, Neal Stephenson's The Diamond Age[i/] and Michael Creighton's [i]Prey all have stories that deal with nanotech to some degree and how it could accomplish the things below.

Negatives:
Producers say nay.
Who or what made them, and freaking how with 50s, 60s, or 70s tech when we can't make them today?

Positives:
The producers have stated that all the goings on in the show are explainable through science-fact extrapolation, rather than supernatural, means.
If they're loose in the world not just the island they could explain:
- the power of the numbers to affect reality by
being some kind of command/control code.
- coincidences of everyone getting on flight 815
- Jack's wife's miracle spinal recovery
- walt's (and Claire's psychic's) abilities
But they also could be behind the following:
- walt's spectral appearances
- Locke's legs suddenly working
- Jack's dad's corpse walking around
- Ethan's superstrength
- the mysterious 'infection' mentioned by Rousseau
- the actual physical crashing of the Nigerian plane and Flight 815

I agree that it's a little out there to think they could be responsible for the polar bears, but if the polar bears are somehow a manifestation of Walt's, and they're were enough of them, and they were sophisticated enough, they COULD bunch together and mimic a polar bear. I personally think that's too much of a stretch given the hints we've been given that the bears were brought by Dharma (or someone else) for some reason.

I couldn't agree more.


welp. i am a convert
i was a nanite agnostic before...
now i am a nanite advocate.

WOW. Really?


See, that's the main reason I don't think the nanites are involved with everything. They can do a lot, I accept that from Criden's and THT's past explanations. but it would be too lame for that to be the overall explanation for everything. For them to reveal that hey, everything weird that's ever happened, all the things we can't explain, all the things are nanites... nobody would accept that.

Them being the monster (or security system more correctly) and explaining why it can be smoke but make mechanical sounds and move trees and grab people, etc. That's believable and is something that, once explained, people could acccept.

Maybe. I think people might be happier with a unifying revelation, no matter what it is.


I see it being a later stronger of an explination if there is one cause and not several. If their is no unifying force for everything that has happened, then it really has to be more than a dozen different things. That, to me, is an insane amount of various things for the viewer to understand.

And, while I'm personally leaning toward nanotech with little human involvement, there very well may be people behind it.

I can get behind this post. I can also call you. Which I'm going to do. In a few minutes.

[Simps]

Thats odd, I was chatting with people and you charged in and started acted like a prick nstead of asking a question or joining in the conversation.

It's amazing how tough/smart everyone is on the internet. Quit acting like a tool.

Oh, I get it. Now you're copying what I said to prove a point. Very witty, sir.

If you'll actually READ the fucking thread, you'll see I posted BEFORE you, and ASKED A QUESTION.

[Simps]

There is no actual research. Nanites are science fiction at this point and probably for a good long while yet.

So me saying "It's a cloud of intelligent smoke created by the Dharma Institute" is technically on equal scientific footing?

I don't understand; I've got Human Target saying he writes papers on the subject, Criden saying he's done Google research on it, and you saying that they don't even exist.

[joespam]

See, that's the main reason I don't think the nanites are involved with everything. They can do a lot, I accept that from Criden's and THT's past explanations. but it would be too lame for that to be the overall explanation for everything. For them to reveal that hey, everything weird that's ever happened, all the things we can't explain, all the things are nanites... nobody would accept that.

Them being the monster (or security system more correctly) and explaining why it can be smoke but make mechanical sounds and move trees and grab people, etc. That's believable and is something that, once explained, people could acccept.

There's still plenty that they don't cover. I think it's goofy to think that they're the why behind the polar bears, for example. For me they tie a lot of the unexplainable-except-with-the-supernatural together in a neat little package.

But I also think that if they're explained, piece by piece over multiple episodes, much the way the story moves forward, many more people than you think will understand and accept them. By saying 'nobody' would accept it, you're already exagerrating.

Enough folks are advocating them now that some *would* accept them. The majority? I dunno. Keep the mystery going long enough and no explanation will make anyone happy. Xfiles, anyone?

[Briomega]

Maybe. I think people might be happier with a unifying revelation, no matter what it is.

I agree. There has to be a unifying force. I just don't think the general viewing audience would accept nanites as being it. Nanites being used by someone as a tool for specific things like the security system? Yes. Nanites doing everything? I doubt it.

[Criden]

So me saying "It's a cloud of intelligent smoke created by the Dharma Institute" is technically on equal scientific footing?

I don't understand; I've got Human Target saying he writes papers on the subject, Criden saying he's done Google research on it, and you saying that they don't even exist.

Yeah, I'm not quite sure what joey means. Maybe that they're not available for mass production yet? The technology is certainly there, or at least close to there. Knowing the government...it probably already is there. Lemme call Ben and see if he was fucking around about the paper.

[Criden]

There's still plenty that they don't cover. I think it's goofy to think that they're the why behind the polar bears, for example. For me they tie a lot of the unexplainable-except-with-the-supernatural together in a neat little package.

But I also think that if they're explained, piece by piece over multiple episodes, much the way the story moves forward, many more people than you think will understand and accept them. By saying 'nobody' would accept it, you're already exagerrating.

Enough folks are advocating them now that some *would* accept them. The majority? I dunno. Keep the mystery going long enough and no explanation will make anyone happy. Xfiles, anyone?

Exactly.


I agree. There has to be a unifying force. I just don't think the general viewing audience would accept nanites as being it. Nanites being used by someone as a tool for specific things like the security system? Yes. Nanites doing everything? I doubt it.

Well, we can agree to half-agree. ;)

[joespam]

So me saying "It's a cloud of intelligent smoke created by the Dharma Institute" is technically on equal scientific footing?With what?


I don't understand; I've got Human Target saying he writes papers on the subject, Criden saying he's done Google research on it, and you saying that they don't even exist.They don't physically exist. Nobody has built one. Nobody can build one. Technology isn't there yet. They are in the realm of science fiction. The idea has been around for awhile - there was a very influential article written in Scientific American about them in the 80s. The only reseach that can be done is on thought experiments and tech futurist white papers and SF books.

Have I answered your questions?

[Briomega]

There's still plenty that they don't cover. I think it's goofy to think that they're the why behind the polar bears, for example. For me they tie a lot of the unexplainable-except-with-the-supernatural together in a neat little package.

But I also think that if they're explained, piece by piece over multiple episodes, much the way the story moves forward, many more people than you think will understand and accept them. By saying 'nobody' would accept it, you're already exagerrating.

Enough folks are advocating them now that some *would* accept them. The majority? I dunno. Keep the mystery going long enough and no explanation will make anyone happy. Xfiles, anyone?

Yeah, I don't mean nobody, obviously. I mean the general audience, not the obsessives like us.

I agree, they can explain it, but I think it makes much more sense for it to be explained when they decide to discover what it's protecting and learn how the security system works, for example. Otherwise, it's just simply too much of a catch-all explanation. Anything that's weird that they don't want to come up with something...nanites. It makes much more sense for it to be one of the tools being used, explaining the security system, than this huge all-encompassing thing.

[Criden]

Yeah, I don't mean nobody, obviously. I mean the general audience, not the obsessives like us.

I agree, they can explain it, but I think it makes much more sense for it to be explained when they decide to discover what it's protecting and learn how the security system works, for example. Otherwise, it's just simply too much of a catch-all explanation. Anything that's weird that they don't want to come up with something...nanites. It makes much more sense for it to be one of the tools being used, explaining the security system, than this huge all-encompassing thing.

Maybe, maybe not. I like your old avatar a lot, by the way. You should go back to it. :)

[copypastepuke]

WOW. Really?





i always thought nanites possible, but i didnt think teh show would go that route.

now, i think it is!

[joespam]

I agree. There has to be a unifying force. I just don't think the general viewing audience would accept nanites as being it. Nanites being used by someone as a tool for specific things like the security system? Yes. Nanites doing everything? I doubt it.

There are definitely people involved. The Others and Dharma are not nanites.


Yeah, I'm not quite sure what joey means. Maybe that they're not available for mass production yet? The technology is certainly there, or at least close to there. Knowing the government...it probably already is there. Lemme call Ben and see if he was fucking around about the paper.

Dude, seriously. There is no fucking way we are at the point where we can build robots at the scale I described with the abilities I described. We're in the very early stages of being able to build teensy tiny machines with gears and stuff, but we cannot build programmable, self-directed, self-recharging, self-replicating, flea-sized robots that can change color.

Guar an teed. If we could, your iPod would be a lot smaller.

[Criden]

i always thought nanites possible, but i didnt think teh show would go that route.

now, i think it is!

yay.


There are definitely people involved. The Others and Dharma are not nanites.



Dude, seriously. There is no fucking way we are at the point where we can build robots at the scale I described with the abilities I described. We're in the very early stages of being able to build teensy tiny machines with gears and stuff, but we cannot build programmable, self-directed, self-recharging, self-replicating, flea-sized robots that can change color.

Guar an teed. If we could, your iPod would be a lot smaller.

yes.

-and-

okay, i'll buy that.

[copypastepuke]

oh and criden. i randomly added stupid text to some picture of a dude in a white hat you posted in the crooked hat thread.

and i dotn know why. so i am sorry. lol

[Briomega]

Maybe, maybe not. I like your old avatar a lot, by the way. You should go back to it. :)

Heh, which one? The Xbox one? I'm not digging this one, much, anyway. Was an experiment with a program I forgot I had. :)

[Briomega]

There are definitely people involved. The Others and Dharma are not nanites.

One of these days I may write up my theory. And, yes, it does currently involve nanites. ;-) I'm just afraid it may end up being too long. :lol:

[Criden]

oh and criden. i randomly added stupid text to some picture of a dude in a white hat you posted in the crooked hat thread.

and i dotn know why. so i am sorry. lol

i loved it. :)


Heh, which one? The Xbox one? I'm not digging this one, much, anyway. Was an experiment with a program I forgot I had. :)

yep. :)

[joespam]

okay, i'll buy that.

Cool. If I'm wrong, I'll be really suprised. I consider myself pretty up on this tech.

Let's see, what else don't nanites explain?
The weird magnetic shit going on. What the fuck happened/is happening in the swan station behind all that concrete?What were all the stations on the island really for? How many are there?
Is the quarantine and the button some kind of skinner experiment?
Where the fuck did the horse come from?
Is the Black Rock a conicidence or part of the plan?
Why do the Others seem to want children/'good people?'
Do the others hurt people? IF not, who was Ethan?
Dharma is doing what on the island? Are they still there?
How is walt appearing to people?
Is that Walt on the computer?
Why does Dharma tattoo sharks?
How is it that the island is uncharted or that no ships/planes/governments ever investigate the signal coming from it?

[The Human Target]

Max, I'm not at home.

And Joey Pizza has a damn good hold on nanotech. Its a cutting edge science thats just now exploding. It'll be a long ass time before we in the real world have the kind of tech I'm talking about in relationship to Lost. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist on the show.

And Dr. Machine has stated many times that biologically engineered organisms have the potential to be... well fleshy nano-bots.

Nano-tech on the scale I'm talking is hard sci-fi.

Hey, Simpson have you ever read Transmet?

[The Human Target]

Cool. If I'm wrong, I'll be really suprised. I consider myself pretty up on this tech.

Let's see, what else don't nanites explain?
The weird magnetic shit going on. What the fuck happened/is happening in the swan station behind all that concrete?What were all the stations on the island really for? How many are there?
Is the quarantine and the button some kind of skinner experiment?
Where the fuck did the horse come from?
Is the Black Rock a conicidence or part of the plan?
Why do the Others seem to want children/'good people?'
Do the others hurt people? IF not, who was Ethan?
Dharma is doing what on the island? Are they still there?
How is walt appearing to people?
Is that Walt on the computer?
Why does Dharma tattoo sharks?
How is it that the island is uncharted or that no ships/planes/governments ever investigate the signal coming from it?



To be fair, most of those don't actually have anything to do with nanites or psychic manifestations or ghosts or anything.

[Thudpucker]

Given the fact that the producers change things on a whim, I wouldn't take too much stock in that. Also, they have no qualms about lying.

I don't think they will lie. They don't want to insult the fan base with an outright lie, they have no need to misdirect that way.

Early on they said "no Dinosaurs". Now they say 'No Nanites". I believe them, the nanite theory is a dead end.

[joespam]

And Joey Pizza has a damn good hold on nanotech. Its a cutting edge science thats just now exploding. It'll be a long ass time before we in the real world have the kind of tech I'm talking about in relationship to Lost. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist on the show.Thanks. I agree. I forgot computer simulations of their behavior could exist as research. The field of Artificial Life has probably gotten pretty far along with algorithms nowadays.
To be fair, most of those don't actually have anything to do with nanites or psychic manifestations or ghosts or anything.Absolutely true. I was just trying to show that nanites don't cover everything. There are plenty of questions left unanswered even if nanites explain everything I think they could.
I don't think they will lie. They don't want to insult the fan base with an outright lie, they have no need to misdirect that way.

Early on they said "no Dinosaurs". Now they say 'No Nanites". I believe them, the nanite theory is a dead end.Thud, you're a trusting soul. Remember, those same producers are quoted as saying something like "if it is an island." They like fucking with us. They've planted false script pages and plot ideas for misdirection. And many people think they're lying when they say how planned out everything is and that they're making it up as they go along. So it's not out of the realm of possibility that they'd lie about this.

The theory only resurged because of the good look we all got of the cloud on wednesday. For the 'believers' it's a good indicator. I think it's a good theory contradicted only by the statement made by the producers. And by the question of how did they get made with the old tech on the island. But until we have evidence that they HAVE lied about something plot related to misdirect us, I'm willing to wait and see.

[joespam]

One of these days I may write up my theory. And, yes, it does currently involve nanites. ;-) I'm just afraid it may end up being too long. :lol:Some of the theories I've seen read like thesis papers. If you ever write yours up, go ahead and post it. I'd read.

[WAKKAJAWAKKA]

Is Any Of This Spoilers? I Didn't Realize I Was Reading Lost Stuff.

Wayno.

[Thudpucker]

Thud, you're a trusting soul. Remember, those same producers are quoted as saying something like "if it is an island." They like fucking with us.

Not the same thing. Teases like "if it really is this or that" is not the same as "no, it is not that".

These producers are pros and they are used to dealing with fanatic fanbases (Alias). They are not going to say in an interview 'it is not dinosaurs' and then show a dinosaur. They know better, that isn't a fun game.

They say this is not an afterlife experience. They say it is not nanites. Right out, clear as day - not afterlife, not nanites. It's not a lie guys, you've got to let it go. ;-)

[joespam]

Is Any Of This Spoilers? I Didn't Realize I Was Reading Lost Stuff.
Mild spoilers. I tried to cover mine up when I remembered this wasn't listed as a LOST thread.

Not the same thing. Teases like "if it really is this or that" is not the same as "no, it is not that".

These producers are pros and they are used to dealing with fanatic fanbases (Alias). They are not going to say in an interview 'it is not dinosaurs' and then show a dinosaur. They know better, that isn't a fun game.

They say this is not an afterlife experience. They say it is not nanites. Right out, clear as day - not afterlife, not nanites. It's not a lie guys, you've got to let it go.I acknowledge the possibility that they are telling the truth. But I won't fully believe it isn't nanites until they show that it isn't. Or until I read a science-based theory that fits the evidence better.

[nihilance]

It's funny that everyone is so hung up on the images seen in the cloud...that they don't seem to notice two important things that also lean towards the nanite theory.

As the camera pans through the inside of the cloud the slight mechanical sound becomes much louder within the cloud and there are flashes of electicity throughout the cloud during this sequence.

I'm thinking that the cloud is a weapon or tool of some sort that either became sentient or in some way is beyond the control of Dharma. The numbers being entered into the computer reset the electromagnetic field that keeps the nano from leaving the island and wreaking havoc with the outside world. There is nothing mystical about the island...it is simply a remote research facility for Dharma (hence the EM field and Dharma-sharks in the nearby waters).

And the nano cloud does not explain every little thing on the island that has not been expressly explained to us yet.

[McAfee]

There were two polar bears. One was shot and killed by bullets. The other ran off howling in pain. Neither of these (death or pain) fall in line with micro-robotic technology. That's all I will say about the overall nano suppositions in this thread.

I still think Jack's father is part of the bigger picture here.

[nihilance]

There were two polar bears. One was shot and killed by bullets. The other ran off howling in pain. Neither of these (death or pain) fall in line with micro-robotic technology. That's all I will say about the overall nano suppositions in this thread.

I still think Jack's father is part of the bigger picture here.
I don't think Jack's father even made it on to the plane. The last we see is Jack argueing to put his body on the plane without resolution. Sure he thinks he sees him, but he's delirious in that episode also and I think was hallucinating. When he found the casket he looked in to see if his father was there because the hallucinations were so vivid, but was relieved to see that the coffin was empty as it should have been.

[Simps]

Max, I'm not at home.

And Joey Pizza has a damn good hold on nanotech. Its a cutting edge science thats just now exploding. It'll be a long ass time before we in the real world have the kind of tech I'm talking about in relationship to Lost. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist on the show.

And Dr. Machine has stated many times that biologically engineered organisms have the potential to be... well fleshy nano-bots.

Nano-tech on the scale I'm talking is hard sci-fi.

Hey, Simpson have you ever read Transmet?

No.

And so basically, anyone in this thread talking about research they've done about nanites is completely full of shit? They don't exist, so you have no actual basis for these claims, other than thats what some people THINK they MIGHT be able to do. Well, I'm glad I haven't jumped on they "Haha, they ARE nanites!" bandwagon.

[joespam]

No.

And so basically, anyone in this thread talking about research they've done about nanites is completely full of shit? They don't exist, so you have no actual basis for these claims, other than thats what some people THINK they MIGHT be able to do. Well, I'm glad I haven't jumped on they "Haha, they ARE nanites!" bandwagon.

Not completely full of shit. The field of Artificial Life, swarm/behavior algorithms, white papers done by futurists, robotics - there's stuff out there. More than SF writers are thinking about this technology, and are working towards building it.

Just because you can't buy a 1000 pack at Costco yet or build one in a lab doesn't mean there's no information out there on the subject. For example:
What may be world’s smallest mini-robot being developed at Sandia (http://www.sandia.gov/media/NewsRel/NR2001/minirobot.htm)

[The Human Target]

There were two polar bears. One was shot and killed by bullets. The other ran off howling in pain. Neither of these (death or pain) fall in line with micro-robotic technology. That's all I will say about the overall nano suppositions in this thread.

I still think Jack's father is part of the bigger picture here.

The polar bears could just be on the island from Dharma leaing them there.

Or they could be manifestations of Walt's mind.

Or nano-created manifestations of Walt's mind.

I fail to see how polar bears break the camels back.

[Criden]

Back with more replies!


Not the same thing. Teases like "if it really is this or that" is not the same as "no, it is not that".

These producers are pros and they are used to dealing with fanatic fanbases (Alias). They are not going to say in an interview 'it is not dinosaurs' and then show a dinosaur. They know better, that isn't a fun game.

They say this is not an afterlife experience. They say it is not nanites. Right out, clear as day - not afterlife, not nanites. It's not a lie guys, you've got to let it go. ;-)

Thud, you're coming as pretty condescending now. I don't know if that what you're intending, but knowing you, I doubt it.

Anyways, I don't remember the wording of what the producers actually said. They have certainly lied before in interviews, outright, and then revealed something to be exactly what they said it wasn't. This does happen, and not just with Lost.


I don't think they will lie. They don't want to insult the fan base with an outright lie, they have no need to misdirect that way.

Early on they said "no Dinosaurs". Now they say 'No Nanites". I believe them, the nanite theory is a dead end.

Your own words betray you. If the show is fluid and constantly changing, why can't a theory that was once a dead end to them now be a great opportunity?


Is Any Of This Spoilers? I Didn't Realize I Was Reading Lost Stuff.

Wayno.

Yeah, mildly. Sorry!


Mild spoilers. I tried to cover mine up when I remembered this wasn't listed as a LOST thread.
I acknowledge the possibility that they are telling the truth. But I won't fully believe it isn't nanites until they show that it isn't. Or until I read a science-based theory that fits the evidence better.

Right, or sounds as good, to me. I mean, I've heard the magnetism theory, but that sounds like a crappy explanation to me.


No.

And so basically, anyone in this thread talking about research they've done about nanites is completely full of shit? They don't exist, so you have no actual basis for these claims, other than thats what some people THINK they MIGHT be able to do. Well, I'm glad I haven't jumped on they "Haha, they ARE nanites!" bandwagon.

That's not really correct at all.


There were two polar bears. One was shot and killed by bullets. The other ran off howling in pain. Neither of these (death or pain) fall in line with micro-robotic technology. That's all I will say about the overall nano suppositions in this thread.

I still think Jack's father is part of the bigger picture here.

The polar bears can be explained by the Zoology hatch.

I think you may be right about Dr. Shepherd. You'll be seeing him again soon.


Thanks. I agree. I forgot computer simulations of their behavior could exist as research. The field of Artificial Life has probably gotten pretty far along with algorithms nowadays.Absolutely true. I was just trying to show that nanites don't cover everything. There are plenty of questions left unanswered even if nanites explain everything I think they could. Thud, you're a trusting soul. Remember, those same producers are quoted as saying something like "if it is an island." They like fucking with us. They've planted false script pages and plot ideas for misdirection. And many people think they're lying when they say how planned out everything is and that they're making it up as they go along. So it's not out of the realm of possibility that they'd lie about this.

The theory only resurged because of the good look we all got of the cloud on wednesday. For the 'believers' it's a good indicator. I think it's a good theory contradicted only by the statement made by the producers. And by the question of how did they get made with the old tech on the island. But until we have evidence that they HAVE lied about something plot related to misdirect us, I'm willing to wait and see.

There's evidence floating around about them lying about plot evidence in order to misdirect us. I'll see if I can find it.

See what I put in bold? I don't think that, I know it.


I don't think Jack's father even made it on to the plane. The last we see is Jack argueing to put his body on the plane without resolution. Sure he thinks he sees him, but he's delirious in that episode also and I think was hallucinating. When he found the casket he looked in to see if his father was there because the hallucinations were so vivid, but was relieved to see that the coffin was empty as it should have been.

I think that may be a good theory.


Cool. If I'm wrong, I'll be really suprised. I consider myself pretty up on this tech.

Let's see, what else don't nanites explain?
The weird magnetic shit going on. What the fuck happened/is happening in the swan station behind all that concrete?What were all the stations on the island really for? How many are there?
Is the quarantine and the button some kind of skinner experiment?
Where the fuck did the horse come from?
Is the Black Rock a conicidence or part of the plan?
Why do the Others seem to want children/'good people?'
Do the others hurt people? IF not, who was Ethan?
Dharma is doing what on the island? Are they still there?
How is walt appearing to people?
Is that Walt on the computer?
Why does Dharma tattoo sharks?
How is it that the island is uncharted or that no ships/planes/governments ever investigate the signal coming from it?


The nanites can explain how Walt is appearing to people, and--if Michael's imagining their IM convos--why Michael is imagining them. If those convos are truly taking place, then it could be Walt, or one of The Others, or someone else entirely.

[Simps]

That's not really correct at all.

So far, no one's given proof that they currently exist, just what they could possibly do if they existed. We have people saying that futurists and sci-fi writers think they could do who-knows-what. You posted a quote that you apparently think proves your theory, which was really just a sentence that said if a bunch of nanites flew around together, they would look like a cloud. Holy shit, I wasn't being condescending at first, but now I am. You people that think the Nanites are THE answer are absolute nutters. They are coming together to form polar bears? POLAR BEARS? What the fuck? Thank god you people don't write Lost.

[Criden]

So far, no one's given proof that they currently exist, just what they could possibly do if they existed. We have people saying that futurists and sci-fi writers think they could do who-knows-what. You posted a quote that you apparently think proves your theory, which was really just a sentence that said if a bunch of nanites flew around together, they would look like a cloud. Holy shit, I wasn't being condescending at first, but now I am. You people that think the Nanites are THE answer are absolute nutters. They are coming together to form polar bears? POLAR BEARS? What the fuck? Thank god you people don't write Lost.

Jesus Christ, man, calm down. You don't have to get all bent out of shape over this. It's a TV show.

I don't think that quote proves my theory--nor did I ever say that it did. I just was showing an example of something a person could find on nanites if they research them on Google.

Why would you call yourself condescending?

When did we say they formed polar bears? I, for one, said that the polar bears probably came from the Zoology hatch.

Thank God we don't write Lost? Yeah, heaven forbid the show has a game plan.

[Briomega]

Here's why I think the nanites are only a security system. The tailies never had contact with it. The cloud/monster never came onto the beach, the closest was in the beginning of season 1 when it shook the trees. The cloud/monster wasn't inside or didn't chase inside the hatch. The cloud wasn't around Rousseau's. It never stopped the raft from leaving the island. It didn't attack or come near the tailies as they were walking to the other camp.

The cloud seems centered on a very specific area of the island, only. Every section of the plane has come down near an important part of the Dharma facilities. The tail section came down nearby Arrow Station, the Midsection came down near Swan station, and the Nose came down near...well, whatever Station the monster is protecting. That's the area where the system is centered, in and around where the nose came down.

[Simps]

Jesus Christ, man, calm down. You don't have to get all bent out of shape over this. It's a TV show. Uh, you nanite-nuts are the ones that jumped down my throat when I asked if any anyone could actually explain what they are.


I don't think that quote proves my theory--nor did I ever say that it did. I just was showing an example of something a person could find on nanites if they research them on Google.
Typing "nanites" on Google isn't research. Research involves libraries and reading scientific journals.


When did we say they formed polar bears? I, for one, said that the polar bears probably came from the Zoology hatch.
Uh...

The polar bears could be the nanites forming a fake being. ...do you even read what you post?


Thank God we don't write Lost? Yeah, heaven forbid the show has a game plan. Yes, because they haven't called you personally to tell you what's going, they don't have a gameplan. :roll: Saying nanites doesn't really require a alot of thought, which is why that's not the case. Also, when Lindeloff came out and said that it's not Nanites, that's not them trying to throw you off the trail, that's them quashing any rumours of nanites because it makes them sound like a bunch of sci-fi hacks.

[McAfee]

The polar bears could just be on the island from Dharma leaing them there.

Leaving or leading. I think this is why they are there...as (abandoned?) test subjects.


Or they could be manifestations of Walt's mind.

Or nano-created manifestations of Walt's mind.

Manifestations do not die. Especially machines.


I fail to see how polar bears break the camels back.

Never said it did. Just replying to one of many ideas brought up about nanites.

[Criden]

Uh, you nanite-nuts are the ones that jumped down my throat when I asked if any anyone could actually explain what they are.


Typing "nanites" on Google isn't research. Research involves libraries and reading scientific journals.


Uh...
...do you even read what you post?

Yes, because they haven't called you personally to tell you what's going, they don't have a gameplan. :roll: Saying nanites doesn't really require a alot of thought, which is why that's not the case. Also, when Lindeloff came out and said that it's not Nanites, that's not them trying to throw you off the trail, that's them quashing any rumours of nanites because it makes them sound like a bunch of sci-fi hacks.

In order:

If so, that's not how I intended to come across at all. I don't really think that's how I did.

The internet isn't research? And who's to say I did not look at medical journals and the like online? I did.

Yeah, I went back on that, though, and said it was the Zoology hatch.

Please. I don't think that they don't have a gameplan because they didn't call me and tell me they do. I have been told by a few reliable sources things that definitively, to me, indicate a lack of an overall gameplan. And how are nanites so easy to figure out? I wouldn't say that they are. It took me quite a while. Any good mystery writer, for the record, will tell you that there should always been sufficient clues, no matter how well-hidden, that can allow a reader, viewer, whatever to solve said mystery.

[McAfee]

I don't think Jack's father even made it on to the plane. The last we see is Jack argueing to put his body on the plane without resolution. Sure he thinks he sees him, but he's delirious in that episode also and I think was hallucinating. When he found the casket he looked in to see if his father was there because the hallucinations were so vivid, but was relieved to see that the coffin was empty as it should have been.

Egg-fucking-ZACTLY!

I'm not saying he is/was on the island really.

[Briomega]

Egg-fucking-ZACTLY!

I'm not saying he is/was on the island really.

Wait, so you think his father is still alive?

[McAfee]

Wait, so you think his father is still alive?

I don't think it is out of the question. How's that for a Lost-like answer?

[Briomega]

I don't think it is out of the question. How's that for a Lost-like answer?

Hmm, never thought of that. So, would you be thinking that when he saw his father on the island that was real?

It's not beyond the realm of possibility, and it honestly would fit with my thinking that the flashbacks are not entirely real/true.

Then, again, if he were bringing a coffin back home, he would most likely have identified a body. Why bring home an empty coffin if there was no body recovered?

[Criden]

Hmm, never thought of that. So, would you be thinking that when he saw his father on the island that was real?

It's not beyond the realm of possibility, and it honestly would fit with my thinking that the flashbacks are not entirely real/true.

Then, again, if he were bringing a coffin back home, he would most likely have identified a body. Why bring home an empty coffin if there was no body recovered?

Let's just say, either way you'll be seeing the good doctor sooner than you think.

[McAfee]

Hmm, never thought of that. So, would you be thinking that when he saw his father on the island that was real?

It's not beyond the realm of possibility, and it honestly would fit with my thinking that the flashbacks are not entirely real/true.

Then, again, if he were bringing a coffin back home, he would most likely have identified a body. Why bring home an empty coffin if there was no body recovered?

If you will recall, he DID identify the body while in Aussie. But if his father is partially behind this, there is no reason to think it wasn't a faked death to get Jack to come find him.

Certainly, we can see now that the passengers were not brought together randomly for this flight.

[Briomega]

Let's just say, either way you'll be seeing the good doctor sooner than you think.

Bastard, I hate when you do your cryptic comments.:angry:
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Not really, I like em alot. ;)

[Briomega]

If you will recall, he DID identify the body while in Aussie. But if his father is partially behind this, there is no reason to think it wasn't a faked death to get Jack to come find him.

Certainly, we can see now that the passengers were not brought together randomly for this flight.

Yeah, had forgotten if that scene was shown or not. Interesting, I honestly had not considered that possibility before, but it does make sense and fits some of my theories.

[Criden]

If you will recall, he DID identify the body while in Aussie. But if his father is partially behind this, there is no reason to think it wasn't a faked death to get Jack to come find him.

Certainly, we can see now that the passengers were not brought together randomly for this flight.

Even though the show's creators have said that that may just be a coincidence! :crazy:


Bastard, I hate when you do your cryptic comments.:angry:
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Not really, I like em alot. ;)

Well, don't think it's going to be Friendly.

[Thudpucker]

Back with more replies!



Thud, you're coming as pretty condescending now. I don't know if that what you're intending, but knowing you, I doubt it.

Anyways, I don't remember the wording of what the producers actually said. They have certainly lied before in interviews, outright, and then revealed something to be exactly what they said it wasn't. This does happen, and not just with Lost.



Your own words betray you. If the show is fluid and constantly changing, why can't a theory that was once a dead end to them now be a great opportunity?



Not my intention to be condescending at all. Just think that there is no reasonable reason to think the producers of the show are lying to the fans. If we were getting close to the truth I think they would just keep quiet, not lie.

[Criden]

Not my intention to be condescending at all. Just think that there is no reasonable reason to think the producers of the show are lying to the fans. If we were getting close to the truth I think they would just keep quiet, not lie.

Well, I think they'd certainly lie to throw people off, and I believe they have already, I'll check some interviews and stuff. So, we can just agree to disagree.

[Briomega]

Not my intention to be condescending at all. Just think that there is no reasonable reason to think the producers of the show are lying to the fans. If we were getting close to the truth I think they would just keep quiet, not lie.

I don't recall what their actual comment was. Is there a quote from somewhere where they made this pronouncement?

[MattJohnson]

Let's just say, either way you'll be seeing the good doctor sooner than you think.

Or you could just tell us what you know

[Criden]

Or you could just tell us what you know

Yeah, that's way less fun*.

*obnoxious.

[Thudpucker]

I don't recall what their actual comment was. Is there a quote from somewhere where they made this pronouncement?

I don't know, I don't remember who posted that they denied it. Would have to dig back thru all the threads (and no way would I do that) :lol:

[Simps]

Would it be wrong to say that I know for a fact that they're not nanites? I have a mutal acquaintence with Lindelof, who told me over the course of a long conversation that he laughs at that theory?

[Simps]

I don't know, I don't remember who posted that they denied it. Would have to dig back thru all the threads (and no way would I do that) :lol:

I believe it was in a TVGuide.com interview in the fall.

[Smokinblues]

Would it be wrong to say that I know for a fact that they're not nanites? I have a mutal acquaintence with Lindelof, who told me over the course of a long conversation that he laughs at that theory?

It's not wrong if it's true. You'd be my new favorite poster

[Briomega]

I don't know, I don't remember who posted that they denied it. Would have to dig back thru all the threads (and no way would I do that) :lol:

Yeah, that's what I thought, too. I remember someone posted it in one of the threads and said it was mentioned at a convention, but outside of that I'd never seen it actually quoted verbatim.

[Criden]

Would it be wrong to say that I know for a fact that they're not nanites? I have a mutal acquaintence with Lindelof, who told me over the course of a long conversation that he laughs at that theory?

Is that true? If so, why would you have kept this to yourself until now? Also, what's with the hostility?

[joespam]

Uh, you nanite-nuts are the ones that jumped down my throat when I asked if any anyone could actually explain what they are.Did I jump down your throat? I thought I just answered your questions and explained how nanobots could produce what we've seen on the show. I don't think you've really responded to any of my posts except to bad mouth other posters.


Typing "nanites" on Google isn't research. Research involves libraries and reading scientific journals.So you're forgetting what I said about white papers, articles in Scientific American, the field of Artificial Life, and the link I posted on the 1/4 cubic inch robots at Sandia National Laboratory.

You seem to be fixated on the thought that because such a thing has only been extrapoled here in reality completely invalidates the idea that they'd be used on a Sci Fi TV show. I don't really think one flows from the other, and I don't see how it's a triumph for the anti nanite argument that you can't build 'em yet.


Here's why I think the nanites are only a security system. The tailies never had contact with it. The cloud/monster never came onto the beach, the closest was in the beginning of season 1 when it shook the trees. The cloud/monster wasn't inside or didn't chase inside the hatch. The cloud wasn't around Rousseau's. It never stopped the raft from leaving the island. It didn't attack or come near the tailies as they were walking to the other camp.

The cloud seems centered on a very specific area of the island, only. Every section of the plane has come down near an important part of the Dharma facilities. The tail section came down nearby Arrow Station, the Midsection came down near Swan station, and the Nose came down near...well, whatever Station the monster is protecting. That's the area where the system is centered, in and around where the nose came down.

It is definitely interesting why things seem to be confined to areas of the island. The tailies had problems with the Others that our folks didn't have at all, too. Why weren't there mass kidnappings with our gang?

We do know already from Rousseau that the cloud's a (the) security system. But that doesn't mean that there aren't more nanites than the cloud. It could, but nothing's conclusive. If the cloud does turn out to be nanobots, it'll just be a question whether anything else that theoretically could be explained by nanobots actually is because of them, or there are other explanations.


Would it be wrong to say that I know for a fact that they're not nanites? I have a mutal acquaintence with Lindelof, who told me over the course of a long conversation that he laughs at that theory?It'd be wrong if it was a lie.... But wow. I'd expect you to have a full message box soon from LOST fans demanding you to say what you know.

So that's two reports denying it now. You've got a good source. But I still say we won't know for sure until we find out on the show it's something else.

[joespam]

I believe it was in a TVGuide.com interview in the fall.
As I remember, it came up in a panel discussion at SDCC this summer. Don't know if the TV guide thing is true or not.

[joespam]

The nanites can explain how Walt is appearing to people, and--if Michael's imagining their IM convos--why Michael is imagining them. If those convos are truly taking place, then it could be Walt, or one of The Others, or someone else entirely.
Yeah, it can, but I find the idea of them being behind the projections a little silly, like the polar bear argument. I can't comprehend WHY Walt would be able to 'astral project' himself backwards talking with nanites. Yeah, he can somehow influence the world/island. But if he can control the nanites, why can't he get free? Not that I have a better science-based explanation to explain what's up with Walt. It just feels like a stretch to me for some reason.

And after Ben Simpson's claim he heard laughter on it from the horse's mouth, I feel like the 2nd bucket of cold water's been thrown on the nano theory.

I still maintain they explain a lot of the mystical events very well. That alone makes them a better-than-dumb theory, no matter how stupid one thinks the concept is, no matter how unnaccepting one thinks the audience would be, no matter how much one thinks the Producers wouldn't lie about it. But I've made the best case I can and if'n y'all don't like my debate, in conclusion, I would tell you to suck it. :)

[Criden]

Yeah, it can, but I find the idea of them being behind the projections a little silly, like the polar bear argument. I can't comprehend WHY Walt would be able to 'astral project' himself backwards talking with nanites. Yeah, he can somehow influence the world/island. But if he can control the nanites, why can't he get free? Not that I have a better science-based explanation to explain what's up with Walt. It just feels like a stretch to me for some reason.

And after Ben Simpson's claim he heard laughter on it from the horse's mouth, I feel like the 2nd bucket of cold water's been thrown on the nano theory.

I still maintain they explain a lot of the mystical events very well. That alone makes them a better-than-dumb theory, no matter how stupid one thinks the concept is, no matter how unnaccepting one thinks the audience would be, no matter how much one thinks the Producers wouldn't lie about it. But I've made the best case I can and if'n y'all don't like my debate, in conclusion, I would tell you to suck it. :)

I guess I wouldn't understand laughter on it from the horse's mouth. Why would he laugh at a theory that does a good job of unifying a number of the mysteries and explaining them in a logical manner? I guess if Ben's telling the truth, it would just have to be laughter as in, "hahah, nobody's ever going to figure it out." For the record, my knowledge that the gameplan is not so concrete mainly comes from the inside information I received in April or so that the creators did not even know what was in the hatch yet, and a couple other things. That to me would indicate a lack of a truly concrete plan for the show. Frankly, I'd be happy for there to be an explanation other than nanites, as long as it's a good one.

[Briomega]

I guess I wouldn't understand laughter on it from the horse's mouth. Why would he laugh at a theory that does a good job of unifying a number of the mysteries and explaining them in a logical manner? I guess if Ben's telling the truth, it would just have to be laughter as in, "hahah, nobody's ever going to figure it out." For the record, my knowledge that the gameplan is not so concrete mainly comes from the inside information I received in April or so that the creators did not even know what was in the hatch yet, and a couple other things. That to me would indicate a lack of a truly concrete plan for the show. Frankly, I'd be happy for there to be an explanation other than nanites, as long as it's a good one.

Yeah, wouldn't surprise me in the least that they don't have a definitive answer for many of the questions they've raised. Especially given past comments by them and also past projects. They also seem more than aware of the community of obsessives and the theories and probably adjust their plans accordingly not just to keep people from actually guessing the truth but also just to fuck with people.

There's no doubt in my mind that there are things they put into the episodes, knowing full well we will obsess over them, that have nothing to do with anything except to fuck with us. But, hey, that's all part of the fun. To me, these debates we have are as fun as the shows themselves. :D

[Simps]

It'd be wrong if it was a lie.... But wow. I'd expect you to have a full message box soon from LOST fans demanding you to say what you know.

So that's two reports denying it now. You've got a good source. But I still say we won't know for sure until we find out on the show it's something else.

A friend of my family's is a film producer. At the premiere for his movie in December, I got to meet the writer/director of the film, and were we casually discussing all sorts of things related to film and TV, since I was introduced as "a guy that knows more about the film industry that [the director] or [the producer] will ever know" We were chatting, and eventually the topic came to Lost, and he mentioned how he's friends with Lindelof. That turned into us discussing what we thought was going on (like the nanites, debunked), and whether Lindelof would tell him anything more (which he would not). Then it turned to what a busy guy Lindelof is, and how he's also doing the Hulk/Wolverine book. That was about it. Needless to say, the guy had no reason to lie to me, so either Lindelof is conning his friends, or that was legit.

What I can't understand, is that after all the seeds we've seen planted as far back as the pilot coming to fruition even in recent episodes, people think there's no gameplan.

[Criden]

A friend of my family's is a film producer. At the premiere for his movie in December, I got to meet the writer/director of the film, and were we casually discussing all sorts of things related to film and TV, since I was introduced as "a guy that knows more about the film industry that [the director] or [the producer] will ever know" We were chatting, and eventually the topic came to Lost, and he mentioned how he's friends with Lindelof. That turned into us discussing what we thought was going on (like the nanites, debunked), and whether Lindelof would tell him anything more (which he would not). Then it turned to what a busy guy Lindelof is, and how he's also doing the Hulk/Wolverine book. That was about it. Needless to say, the guy had no reason to lie to me, so either Lindelof is conning his friends, or that was legit.

What I can't understand, is that after all the seeds we've seen planted as far back as the pilot coming to fruition even in recent episodes, people think there's no gameplan.

So, it was a friend of Lindelof who merely debunked the theory?

I don't think there's NO gameplan, as I explained above--just not a super-concrete one.

[Simps]

I guess I wouldn't understand laughter on it from the horse's mouth. Why would he laugh at a theory that does a good job of unifying a number of the mysteries and explaining them in a logical manner? I guess if Ben's telling the truth, it would just have to be laughter as in, "hahah, nobody's ever going to figure it out." For the record, my knowledge that the gameplan is not so concrete mainly comes from the inside information I received in April or so that the creators did not even know what was in the hatch yet, and a couple other things. That to me would indicate a lack of a truly concrete plan for the show. Frankly, I'd be happy for there to be an explanation other than nanites, as long as it's a good one.

Ha. I'm laughing at the idea that your theory unifies the stories. I think it was more that he had been asked about it alot, and that he knows thats not the case (if not him, who else would know?)

And I'm dissapointed that I've yet to have anyone in this thread explain how nanites would do the things they've done, like pick people up, rip them apart, move trees with such great force. The nanites theory stinks.

[Simps]

So, it was a friend of Lindelof who merely debunked the theory?
He was told by Lindelof that it was not nanites.

[Criden]

Ha. I'm laughing at the idea that your theory unifies the stories. I think it was more that he had been asked about it alot, and that he knows thats not the case (if not him, who else would know?)

And I'm dissapointed that I've yet to have anyone in this thread explain how nanites would do the things they've done, like pick people up, rip them apart, move trees with such great force. The nanites theory stinks.

I didn't say the theory unified the characters' stories, just that it could explain some of the phenomena occuring on the island.

Well, I can buy him laughing if it was that, then--that he'd been asked about it a lot, and at this point was, like, "hahah, it's funny because people are way off from what's really going on."

Some of the science behind nanites: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanites


He was told by Lindelof that it was not nanites.

Ok.

[The Human Target]

So far, no one's given proof that they currently exist, just what they could possibly do if they existed. We have people saying that futurists and sci-fi writers think they could do who-knows-what. You posted a quote that you apparently think proves your theory, which was really just a sentence that said if a bunch of nanites flew around together, they would look like a cloud. Holy shit, I wasn't being condescending at first, but now I am. You people that think the Nanites are THE answer are absolute nutters. They are coming together to form polar bears? POLAR BEARS? What the fuck? Thank god you people don't write Lost.

You're a pretty big cunt.

[MattJohnson]

You're a pretty big cunt.

....

[joespam]

And I'm dissapointed that I've yet to have anyone in this thread explain how nanites would do the things they've done, like pick people up, rip them apart, move trees with such great force. The nanites theory stinks.Jesus FUCKING CHRIST! Are you blind? Are you stupid? Can you fucking read? Find my god fucking posts and read them! I didn't put all that effort into them so you could pretend I didn't fucking post!

I answered every point you brought up elsewhere in this thread. Have you ever brought up this issue? No. Have you ever said 'Oh, now I understand why you think that?' No. You don't like the theory. I get it. I'm tired of explaining to you. I'm tired of answering your points and having you respond only by moving on to some other inane justification for why anyone who doesn't think what you do is stupid.

The debate is over. You can as I said earlier, suck it. Good day sir.

Oh, and I agree with you on wondering why so many people are convinced there's no plan.

[Simps]

Jesus FUCKING CHRIST! Are you blind? Are you stupid? Can you fucking read? Find my god fucking posts and read them! I didn't put all that effort into them so you could pretend I didn't fucking post!

Whoa whoa whoa. This was in response to Criden, not you, guy. I'd been agreeing with what you said, and you seem pretty on the fence about the nanites. I'm waiting for someone like Criden or Human Target to provide some sort of details, which they hadn't. I appreciated your posts, so settle down.

[Simps]

And my real problem with this (other than the fact that I know it not to be true) is that in order for this nanites theory to be correct, the writers/producers would have been basing a good portion of the mystery of their show on tech that isn't out there, and will likely change by the time we actually DO see it in use. They say there's a logical, scientific explanation for what's going on, so I find it hard to believe that this explanation uses tech that isn't out there yet in the way it would have to be on the show. It would betray the whole "going for a real explanation" thing.

[Briomega]

And my real problem with this (other than the fact that I know it not to be true) is that in order for this nanites theory to be correct, the writers/producers would have been basing a good portion of the mystery of their show on tech that isn't out there, and will likely change by the time we actually DO see it in use. They say there's a logical, scientific explanation for what's going on, so I find it hard to believe that this explanation uses tech that isn't out there yet in the way it would have to be on the show. It would betray the whole "going for a real explanation" thing.

Not to throw more fuel on the fire, but there's logical and scientific explanations for things that happen on Star Trek even though you can't go to Best Buy and buy a Dilithium Crystal engine (did i get that right?). I don't recall them saying that everything on the show could be explained by current technology already in production.

And, come on, even you have to acknowledge that the "smoke" thing is not something that is easily explained using currently available technology. If it's mechanical, which seems likely from what we've seen, it's not an iPod, right?

Trust me, I'm not belittling your disbelief in their theory. I'm with you to an extent and don't buy a lot of it. But, I think the writers would be handcuffed if they had to explain everything we've seen so far with technology that is currently available.

[Simps]

Not to throw more fuel on the fire, but there's logical and scientific explanations for things that happen on Star Trek even though you can't go to Best Buy and buy a Dilithium Crystal engine (did i get that right?). I don't recall them saying that everything on the show could be explained by current technology already in production.

And, come on, even you have to acknowledge that the "smoke" thing is not something that is easily explained using currently available technology. If it's mechanical, which seems likely from what we've seen, it's not an iPod, right?

Trust me, I'm not belittling your disbelief in their theory. I'm with you to an extent and don't buy a lot of it. But, I think the writers would be handcuffed if they had to explain everything we've seen so far with technology that is currently available.

The fact that the Dharma project appears to be part of it, which boasts some very antiquated tech, is what leads me to believe that it WOULD be something utilizing current tech or older. I could be wrong, but that's why I can't believe it would be something so advanced. But who knows, that could be part of a larger ploy.

And yeah, I can't even begin to guess what the smoke/cloud thing is. It is fun, now that I'm rewatching the first season with someone who'd never seen it, to look at any appearances of the monster, and try and find more clues.

And on a slightly related note, have we heard any actual dates? Judging by the flashbacks, we're looking at relativley modern times. But I wasn't sure.

[MattJohnson]

And on a slightly related note, have we heard any actual dates? Judging by the flashbacks, we're looking at relativley modern times. But I wasn't sure.

If I'm not mistaken, they've taken care to not tie it down to a specific year.

[Simps]

If I'm not mistaken, they've taken care to not tie it down to a specific year.

I figured asmuch, especially since that really depends on how long the series lasts. But it's my understand that it's basically modern times, and not 15, 20 years into the future.

[MattJohnson]

I figured asmuch, especially since that really depends on how long the series lasts. But it's my understand that it's basically modern times, and not 15, 20 years into the future.

Right, I think that would be a safe assumption. Unless they were just lazy and wanted to pretend that everything will be exactly the same decades from now.

[Briomega]

The fact that the Dharma project appears to be part of it, which boasts some very antiquated tech, is what leads me to believe that it WOULD be something utilizing current tech or older. I could be wrong, but that's why I can't believe it would be something so advanced. But who knows, that could be part of a larger ploy.

And on a slightly related note, have we heard any actual dates? Judging by the flashbacks, we're looking at relativley modern times. But I wasn't sure.

True, and to be honest I had the exact same belief in the past. That was my big gripe with a lot of the nanite theories, too. How could something like that exist when they are using such old computers and tape memory and so forth.

But, we also have not seen all the Dharma stations, yet. There is definitely at least one more, if not several, since there would have to be a main central station on the island. It could be that the Swan station was never updated/upgraded because of either the accident that occurred or because it's part of the experiment being conducted there to keep it low-tech.

[The Human Target]

If I'm not mistaken, they've taken care to not tie it down to a specific year.

They said it does take place currently, and the world is still out there.

If we believe them.

Locke's estimate of the tech in the bunker sets the time frame to the present day.

[Criden]

I figured asmuch, especially since that really depends on how long the series lasts. But it's my understand that it's basically modern times, and not 15, 20 years into the future.

Actually--some of the online Lost game (by ABC) hints at 2009.

[Criden]

They said it does take place currently, and the world is still out there.

If we believe them.

Locke's estimate of the tech in the bunker sets the time frame to the present day.

I believe this, though. The online game is likely fucking around.

[Simps]

Actually--some of the online Lost game (by ABC) hints at 2009.

That would make sense, in that the show is supposed to go 5 or 6 seasons, and in keeping with the approximate 2 days per episode, the show would end in 2009 and they'd have been on the island for under a year, that year being 2009. Does that make sense?

[Criden]

Time Travel Tuesday!!!

[Kman00001]

That would make sense, in that the show is supposed to go 5 or 6 seasons, and in keeping with the approximate 2 days per episode, the show would end in 2009 and they'd have been on the island for under a year, that year being 2009. Does that make sense?

It's still 2004 on the island (the same year the plane crashed), or possibly very early 2005.

[Criden]

It's still 2004 on the island (the same year the plane crashed), or possibly very early 2005.

Or is it?!

[The Human Target]

I totally got banned my one and only time due to this thread!

And my internet grammar/spelling used to be fucking horrible!

And its still nanites, so eat my shit and die!

[Kman00001]

Or is it?!

As far as the survivors of Oceanic flight 815 know...yes.

[Criden]

I totally got banned my one and only time due to this thread!

And my internet grammar/spelling used to be fucking horrible!

And its still nanites, so eat my shit and die!

Heh! I still contend it's nanites, as well.


As far as the survivors of Oceanic flight 815 know...yes.

Well, of course.