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Murdock's Girl
12-16-2005, 07:52 AM
This is stemming from the guys in from my LCS who work in the same building as me- we have a tendency to take our lunches together and talk 'shop'.

anyway, both of the guys are pissed at the Ronin/Echo thing. I really don't get this .


First off, what is everyone's problem with her? I think David made a fucking awsome character that doesn't rip off, doesn't mirror, doesn't seem like any other charcter in the marvel U (which, is a feat in and of itself). I remember when 'vision quest' came out and people (even from these boards...) said they were going to drop DD because of the whole echo thing.

now im hearing the same things again.....these guys from my LCS are devote Avengers fans....Daredevil fans and are dropping NA because of Echo. Why? I couldn't get a straight answer out of either of them. Except one thing- why did she join the team as Ronin and not Echo?
Well...hmm... good question and if you didn't read 'parts of a hole' I could understand the confusion. Here is my thing (and I think i remember seeing brian saying this somewhere) is the fact that she has a huge tie to Fisk. If she comes into the team as Echo- she wouldn't be able to help them because alot of the 'bad guys' know her as the kingpin's 'kid'. As Ronin she eliminates that problem. Etc etc.


so someone tell me....why are people having an issue with Echo? It is just not now because of the Ronin thing.....its been going on for awhile.

Tess/MG

ps. Someone asked if Echo appeared in a movie somewhere. No she didn't. the closest thing would be the playground fight sequence in the DD movie. That sequence was in parts of a hole and had DD fighting Echo, not Elektra.

DeadMike
12-16-2005, 11:01 AM
I dunno what their problem is with Echo. Then again I don't read NA.
But I loved her in both of her DD runs. Great character. In fact once I heard that Echo was/is Ronin I'm considering going and picking up those NA back issues.

WayOfTheStrega
12-16-2005, 11:30 AM
You know, i can agree with your comment. I hate everyone rippin' on Echo. I think she's a fantabulous character. But everyone has different tastes, and I guess for some, Echo doesn't fit into their idea of a superhero. *shrugs*

JKCarrier
12-16-2005, 05:38 PM
You never know what's going to rub people the wrong way. In the case of the "vision quest" storyline, I think some people just resented that Echo essentially replaced Daredevil as the star of the book for several issues. "If I'm buying Daredevil, I wanna see Daredevil, darn it!". Didn't bother me... Echo (and Mack) was the reason I picked up those issues in the first place. ;-)

On the Ronin thing, I dunno... maybe they were hoping it would turn out to be some other favorite character of theirs, and they were mad that it was Echo instead?

dimeshop
12-16-2005, 08:27 PM
I think Echo is awesome. I had never read anything Mack did before Parts of a Hole, and I thought it was awesome. Vision quest was good as well, but different.

I think it's great that Bendis is using her in NA. I think it's going to be really interesting.

Diana
12-17-2005, 02:54 AM
Me: totally out of the loop and not having money to buy anything other than DD. So this is news to me! Me thinks based on this I'll definiltely get the TPB of NA! Cause me likes Echo. :)

DeadMike
12-17-2005, 09:18 AM
It's kinda funny I was reading the same thread in Bendis' message board and some people were saying they were going to drop the book after the Echo reveal. But here in Mack's thread a couple people are considering picking up the book now knowing that Echo is in it. Well I hope it all evens out or that even more people jump on.

Jacob Lyon Goddard
12-18-2005, 10:55 AM
my problem with Echo in Avengers?
it's not Mack

copypastepuke
12-18-2005, 12:38 PM
was this also posted on bendis's side of the internet?

i just dont know if i responded or not.....

dimeshop
12-18-2005, 01:29 PM
my problem with Echo in Avengers?
it's not Mack

It's not Mack handling Echo creatively or it's not Mack in the Avengers?

THAT would have been a choice no one would have seen coming.

Jacob Lyon Goddard
12-18-2005, 03:37 PM
It's not Mack handling Echo creatively or it's not Mack in the Avengers?

THAT would have been a choice no one would have seen coming.
:lol:
not Mack handling the character
and i doubt i'd buy it anyway, i don't read comics not owned by their creators

dimeshop
12-18-2005, 05:42 PM
i don't read comics not owned by their creators

Ever?

Jacob Lyon Goddard
12-18-2005, 06:37 PM
Ever?
none that i can think of at the moment
i read Mack's and the earlier Bendis DD, but that's really it in forever

Murdock's Girl
12-19-2005, 06:36 AM
my problem with Echo in Avengers?
it's not Mack


ahhh....i can understand that one.
Tess/MG

Colin Solan
12-19-2005, 01:35 PM
My big issue is that Echo really doesn't belong in the Avengers. More than Wolverine, more than Luke Cage, she's out of place. She's not even a superhero really. And just how is she so knowledgeable about the Hand?? It comes off as Bendis wanting to put his friend's character in the public eye.

dimeshop
12-19-2005, 01:57 PM
My big issue is that Echo really doesn't belong in the Avengers. More than Wolverine, more than Luke Cage, she's out of place. She's not even a superhero really. And just how is she so knowledgeable about the Hand?? It comes off as Bendis wanting to put his friend's character in the public eye.

I think if you think of her as a "female Taskmaster" (as Bendis once described her), you can see why she would be a good fit. She has extra-ordinary abilities and fights for what she believes in. How is she not a superhero?

To me, it doesn't come off as Bendis' wanting to use a friend's character, but using a relatively new, interesting Marvel character that is just sittting in a box (like the Sentry). Much more interesting than if it was Daredevil, Iron Fist, etc.

Then again, you think that Wolverine and Luke Cage shouldn't be in the Avengers, so we're never ever going to agree on this. :)

Murdock's Girl
12-20-2005, 06:56 AM
My big issue is that Echo really doesn't belong in the Avengers. More than Wolverine, more than Luke Cage, she's out of place. She's not even a superhero really. And just how is she so knowledgeable about the Hand?? It comes off as Bendis wanting to put his friend's character in the public eye.

I don't understand how she is 'out of place'. shit, if I were Cap she would have been one of the first recruits. Think about it-

1)She knows how it is to be betrayed (i.e. Kingpin mess)
2)She knows, understands, and can deal with death (i.e. Kingpin)
3)She has the ability to 'echo' anything she sees once. Show her a video with bullseye, or name any other villian and she can match them. can you imagaine how the riot breakout would have been if she was hanging around?

"she's not even a superhero really"
hahaha. this makes me think of a lecture I did almost two years ago. i've given david a copy of this (since I talk heavily about Echo and Kabuki). basically the lecture was for a gender conference and I was talking about how-despite popular opinion- There are good (female) role models in comic books. Echo was one of them. someone in the q&a asked how Echo is a superhero and i'll give you the answer that i gave them. (Remember, i am talking to people who don't know comics that well).
Batman is a guy with too much money and time on his hands.
Superman was born with xray vision etc.
Batman is not a legit superhero, superman is.
Echo fall's in the 'superman' category. In 'parts of a hole' it explains how she was born deaf and they realized that when she was young that she could do the whole 'echo' thing. that is a 'mutant' power if you want to call it that. Not everyone on the planet can do this- actually, no one can. she ends up using it for good. She is a hero, in her own right, for trying to make a good change in the world, she is a 'superhero' because she has an ability that no one else has, and she uses it for good.

As for knowing about the hand- there is a logical explanation here. (This is just from what I have seen, there is probably a legit answer between david and brian) In NA when cap is trying to get matt to help them- matt says he knows someone that knows about the hand as much as he does. If you think about this, Brian was fucking brillant with that line. everyone, myself included, assumed Matt was refering to elektra. But looking back, all he has to do is tell Echo every thing he knows about the Hand, and guess what? Echo is his friend that knows as much as he does about the Hand.

As far as the using the friend's character bit- I doubt that. I highly do. There are a number of characters- like sentry as you pointed out- that have brief apperances in an ongoing or mini that just fall to the wayside. My personal belief is that there are some of these characters that are better thought out than the hero in the book they appear in. Yea, bendis is using character that his friends happened to create. Yea, there may be some biased there because, for example, echo is david's baby so to say. One question- how long has Jenkins and Bendis and Mack and Millar been saying that relativly new characters introduced in the MU should be used? I remember reading an interview that Brian did where he wasn't exactly complaining, but he was upset that people had this idea about him that they couldn't use Jessica Jones for anything because its his character, which is the furthest from the truth. I honestly think that Brian thought Echo would be a good idea in NA, not because it was david who created her, but because she's a damn good character.


That's my thoughts, and there is a chance they can be completely wrong :)
hahaha
Tess/MG

DragynWulf
12-21-2005, 09:26 PM
This is stemming from the guys in from my LCS who work in the same building as me- we have a tendency to take our lunches together and talk 'shop'.

anyway, both of the guys are pissed at the Ronin/Echo thing. I really don't get this .

A lot of readers don't like the idea because the character doesn't fit in with the Avengers and were expecting a character bigger than Echo. They are not looking at it that this isn't the same type of Avengers that has been around for years prior or that the team is a group of characters that Bendis likes. Not saying that this is the reason that these two guys do not like the Echo/Ronin thing though. Just that a lot of readers don't as well.


First off, what is everyone's problem with her? I think David made a fucking awsome character that doesn't rip off, doesn't mirror, doesn't seem like any other charcter in the marvel U (which, is a feat in and of itself). I remember when 'vision quest' came out and people (even from these boards...) said they were going to drop DD because of the whole echo thing.

She rips off Taskmaster with her abilities. Taskmaster was the only character in the Marvel Universe to have the ability of Photographic Reflexes. Taskmaster has also fought Daredevil in DAREDEVIL twice before.


now im hearing the same things again.....these guys from my LCS are devote Avengers fans....Daredevil fans and are dropping NA because of Echo. Why? I couldn't get a straight answer out of either of them. Except one thing- why did she join the team as Ronin and not Echo?
Well...hmm... good question and if you didn't read 'parts of a hole' I could understand the confusion. Here is my thing (and I think i remember seeing brian saying this somewhere) is the fact that she has a huge tie to Fisk. If she comes into the team as Echo- she wouldn't be able to help them because alot of the 'bad guys' know her as the kingpin's 'kid'. As Ronin she eliminates that problem. Etc etc.

Having a woman dress as a man in order to fool others was used in THUNDERBOLTS by Dallas Riordan as Citizen V.

Having a character use different costumes in order to conceal their identity is being used in NEW THUNDERBOLTS with Speed Demon/Whizzer.


so someone tell me....why are people having an issue with Echo? It is just not now because of the Ronin thing.....its been going on for awhile.

I never really read anything the character has been in myself due to the artwork of David Mack. It just isn't a style of artwork that I like. I am not harping on the style, it just isn't for me. With that said, I just thought she was a Taskmaster with breasts created instead of using Taskmaster himself.

Taskmaster knows that Daredevil is Matt Murdock from the previous appearances that Taskmaster has been in DAREDEVIL (#292, 293, 317 and 318 ). Evidence of this was also shown in ELEKTRA v1 #7 when it was mentioned that Taskmaster was using Daredevil's blind fighting style against Elektra. This alone is something overlooked by David Mack and Brian Bendis that makes Taskmaster worth using in DAREDEVIL.


Tess/MG

ps. Someone asked if Echo appeared in a movie somewhere. No she didn't. the closest thing would be the playground fight sequence in the DD movie. That sequence was in parts of a hole and had DD fighting Echo, not Elektra.

That part of the movie wasn't very smart if you ask me. Here is a blind man that is trying to conceal that he can't see, but yet is fighting a woman out in public for everyone to see that he can indeed see.

Murdock's Girl
12-22-2005, 09:08 AM
A lot of readers don't like the idea because the character doesn't fit in with the Avengers and were expecting a character bigger than Echo. They are not looking at it that this isn't the same type of Avengers that has been around for years prior or that the team is a group of characters that Bendis likes. Not saying that this is the reason that these two guys do not like the Echo/Ronin thing though. Just that a lot of readers don't as well.



She rips off Taskmaster with her abilities. Taskmaster was the only character in the Marvel Universe to have the ability of Photographic Reflexes. Taskmaster has also fought Daredevil in DAREDEVIL twice before.

Yea someone pointed that out to me earlier. Here is my thing though- one character. ONE CHARCTER- how many people in the MU are telepathic for example? to many. I sat down and tried to come up with a new character. She couldn't be this because its too much like dazzler or he's too much like logan if i gave him this power. For each one I could list like 12 characters that are identical (power wise).




Having a woman dress as a man in order to fool others was used in THUNDERBOLTS by Dallas Riordan as Citizen V.

Having a character use different costumes in order to conceal their identity is being used in NEW THUNDERBOLTS with Speed Demon/Whizzer.

As you like it. Much ado about nothing. Merchant of Venice. Midsummer Night's Dream. The whole woman dressing as a man thing is as old as time. Has it be done in comics? as you pointed out it has. Once, besides NA. It's a writing ploy that has been done a zillion times but not over done or killed or jumped the shark in comics.




I never really read anything the character has been in myself due to the artwork of David Mack. It just isn't a style of artwork that I like. I am not harping on the style, it just isn't for me. With that said, I just thought she was a Taskmaster with breasts created instead of using Taskmaster himself.

Whoa...go read 'parts of the hole' arc in DD. the art's JQ with some Mack flair to it. what the fuck? does everyone forget there is an ENTIRE ARCH with Echo in it before NA, before Vision Quest.



Taskmaster knows that Daredevil is Matt Murdock from the previous appearances that Taskmaster has been in DAREDEVIL (#292, 293, 317 and 318 ). Evidence of this was also shown in ELEKTRA v1 #7 when it was mentioned that Taskmaster was using Daredevil's blind fighting style against Elektra. This alone is something overlooked by David Mack and Brian Bendis that makes Taskmaster worth using in DAREDEVIL.

Im going to disagree with you. First off, unless Taskmaster is rehauled what's he point of having another 'echo' as you so pointed out? You are saying that Echo is a rip off of taskmaster, now you are saying that since TM was overlooked by Bendis and Mack (and you neglected to mention Smith,Gale and Hall) they should use him? Im confused here! From what you are saying, you can't have Echo because she is a (for the lack of a better term) 'new' TM, but you want TM----you can't have the cake and eat it too.




That part of the movie wasn't very smart if you ask me. Here is a blind man that is trying to conceal that he can't see, but yet is fighting a woman out in public for everyone to see that he can indeed see.

Yea I agree with you, it was one of the things that irked me. In the comic (the scene Johnson ripped off on was in "Parts of a Hole" in either ish 12 or 13) and Matt is in Costume, it's dusk and he fits Echo, not Elektra. I wince everytime I watch that sequence. The story mistake is just as bad (in my mind) as "You've got mail" with Meg Ryan going to Starbucks.
I wrote a whole speech based off of that mistake. Hmm...maybe I should try one with the Mack/Echo/I hate Johnson mistake. :)

Tess/MG :twisted:

King of Mars
12-22-2005, 10:03 AM
:lol:
not Mack handling the character
and i doubt i'd buy it anyway, i don't read comics not owned by their creatorsWay to be open minded. It's fine to have a preference and I can understand why you might not be interested in the latest, huge Marvel crossover thing or something like that. Still, given the creative latitude some creators are given when working on company owned properties, it seems kinda foolish to adopt such a broad, sweeping policy.

JKCarrier
12-22-2005, 12:29 PM
Still, given the creative latitude some creators are given when working on company owned properties, it seems kinda foolish to adopt such a broad, sweeping policy.

Oh, I don't know, it's probably as good a "rule of thumb" as any. It's true, he'll miss some good stuff with that policy... but he'll also avoid an awful lot of junk.

Colin Solan
12-22-2005, 04:30 PM
"she's not even a superhero really"
hahaha. this makes me think of a lecture I did almost two years ago. i've given david a copy of this (since I talk heavily about Echo and Kabuki). basically the lecture was for a gender conference and I was talking about how-despite popular opinion- There are good (female) role models in comic books. Echo was one of them. someone in the q&a asked how Echo is a superhero and i'll give you the answer that i gave them. (Remember, i am talking to people who don't know comics that well).
Batman is a guy with too much money and time on his hands.
Superman was born with xray vision etc.
Batman is not a legit superhero, superman is.
Echo fall's in the 'superman' category. In 'parts of a hole' it explains how she was born deaf and they realized that when she was young that she could do the whole 'echo' thing. that is a 'mutant' power if you want to call it that. Not everyone on the planet can do this- actually, no one can. she ends up using it for good. She is a hero, in her own right, for trying to make a good change in the world, she is a 'superhero' because she has an ability that no one else has, and she uses it for good.



See, here's the thing, in neither of Echo's previous two appearances did she lift a finger for the "greater good." Her assaults on DD and Kingpin were motivated by her need for vengeance. Prior to that and then later in "Vision Quest" she used her powers to further her athletic and artistic endeavors. With that in mind, she falls into the Punisher/Elektra type vigilante category (but far more benevolent) And I'd have a problem with either of those psychos joining the Avengers.

DragynWulf
12-29-2005, 08:11 AM
Yea someone pointed that out to me earlier. Here is my thing though- one character. ONE CHARCTER- how many people in the MU are telepathic for example? to many. I sat down and tried to come up with a new character. She couldn't be this because its too much like dazzler or he's too much like logan if i gave him this power. For each one I could list like 12 characters that are identical (power wise).

This is also the reason why I don't like X-23. She is a ripoff of Wolverine and there already is too much Wolverine around as it is.



As you like it. Much ado about nothing. Merchant of Venice. Midsummer Night's Dream. The whole woman dressing as a man thing is as old as time. Has it be done in comics? as you pointed out it has. Once, besides NA. It's a writing ploy that has been done a zillion times but not over done or killed or jumped the shark in comics.

All I did was just point out that it has already been done. The only problem I had with it is how Ronin was drawn prior to Ronin showing that he was a she. All other images shown prior to her removing the helmet shown Ronin with broad shoulders and big arms. When she removed the helmet, she had narrow shoulders to fit the likes of a woman.



Whoa...go read 'parts of the hole' arc in DD. the art's JQ with some Mack flair to it.

I have not liked the art in DAREDEVIL since it was revamped into a Marvel Knights series. Joe Quesada draws body parts just as large or larger than Rob Liefeld. Look at ASH and DAREDEVIL: FATHER for a good example of this.


what the fuck? does everyone forget there is an ENTIRE ARCH with Echo in it before NA, before Vision Quest.

I mentioned that I didn't like her appearances in DAREDEVIL due to the artwork, so it is quite obvious that I already knew about the character's appearances prior to NEW AVENGERS. I also have her first appearance listed on my Taskmaster website, so again it is obvious I knew about them. Just because I didn't read them does not mean I don't know about them.


Im going to disagree with you. First off, unless Taskmaster is rehauled what's he point of having another 'echo' as you so pointed out?

Taskmaster did appear in DAREDEVIL long before Echo did. And the character has been "rehauled". It happened in TASKMASTER, DEADPOOL and AGENT-X.


You are saying that Echo is a rip off of taskmaster,

I'm not the only one that sees it.


now you are saying that since TM was overlooked by Bendis and Mack (and you neglected to mention Smith,Gale and Hall) they should use him?

Did Smith, Gale and Hall use Echo? To my knowledge it has only been David Mack and now Bendis (who asked permission to use the character).



Im confused here! From what you are saying, you can't have Echo because she is a (for the lack of a better term) 'new' TM, but you want TM----you can't have the cake and eat it too.

Then you are confussing yourself. It is rather simple. Taskmaster could have been used instead of creating a new character with Photographic Reflexes. And I mentioned good reason why Taskmaster could have been used since Taskmaster knows Daredevil's secret identity is Matt Murdock. It has been touched upon in every appearance that Taskmaster has had in a Daredevil related comic (DAREDEVIL and ELEKTRA).

JKCarrier
12-29-2005, 08:39 AM
Taskmaster could have been used instead of creating a new character with Photographic Reflexes.

Just because they have the same powers doesn't make them interchangeable. Two key elements of "Parts of a Hole" are Echo's naivete concerning the Kingpin, and her romantic attraction to Matt Murdock. Granted, having Taskmaster fall in love with Daredevil would have been a bold move, but I think it kinda worked out better the way Mack did it. :lol:

gwyllgi
12-29-2005, 04:33 PM
I don't even know what Echo looks like.
... I've only read three daredevil issues. I really want to pick up Mack's DD stuff though, if only for art.

Lab-Rat
01-01-2006, 12:28 AM
My problem with the whole Ronin is Echo thing.

First of all, I'd like to say I had this conversation with MACK at Wizard World Texas...when Ronin being Echo was still all speculation...so he's heard my argument already. :D


I have nothing against Echo. I actually like the character. On top of that, I'm totally thrilled that the character is an Avenger. I'm glad that someone is doing something with the character.

My problem is the execution of Her being Ronin. First of all, the fact that Ronin has been drawn as if it were a man under the costume. This can be seen as more of an artist not knowing who Ronin was supposed to be (or the fact that it's possable that ronin at one time was supposed to be another character all together). I think this is my biggest problem with the character. The Execution was all wrong.


Other than that...I'm thrilled that the character is an Avenger.

Lazy_Metaphors
01-14-2006, 04:16 PM
I rarely follow characters - I follow creators. I hope Echo/Ronin is played true to her origin - I enjoyed the Daredevil stories - but I read them only because it was David Mack. The fact that she's now in Avengers doesn't make me want to read it any more now than I did. I'm apathetic about it either way. I enjoyed "Parts of a Hole" and "Vision Quest" precisely because they were non-traditional. Can she fit into a more standard Marvel U story? Well, sure - but that's boring.

Pendragon
01-14-2006, 05:30 PM
I rarely follow characters - I follow creators. I hope Echo/Ronin is played true to her origin - I enjoyed the Daredevil stories - but I read them only because it was David Mack. The fact that she's now in Avengers doesn't make me want to read it any more now than I did. I'm apathetic about it either way. I enjoyed "Parts of a Hole" and "Vision Quest" precisely because they were non-traditional. Can she fit into a more standard Marvel U story? Well, sure - but that's boring.
high five man

Lazy_Metaphors
01-14-2006, 05:32 PM
high five man

I'm sorry, do I know you? ;-)

Pendragon
01-14-2006, 05:40 PM
I'm sorry, do I know you? ;-)
No not at all.

Wait don't look behind your closet door:scared:

Lazy_Metaphors
01-14-2006, 05:58 PM
No not at all.

Wait don't look behind your closet door:scared:

*Pause*

*Hideous screaming*

Murdock's Girl
01-17-2006, 06:45 AM
See, here's the thing, in neither of Echo's previous two appearances did she lift a finger for the "greater good." Her assaults on DD and Kingpin were motivated by her need for vengeance. Prior to that and then later in "Vision Quest" she used her powers to further her athletic and artistic endeavors. With that in mind, she falls into the Punisher/Elektra type vigilante category (but far more benevolent) And I'd have a problem with either of those psychos joining the Avengers.

Ok i agree with you somewhat.
Yea she does fall into that punisher/elektra category-I will grant you that. (and for the sake of an arguement, I am going to stick with Elektra in this example).
Unlike Elektra, Echo tried (and for the most part) succeeded to get out of that vigilantie/vengence role. Elektra-no matter who has written her- has always been in that 'this is the guy that killed my family' ideal. At the end of vision quest, she goes back to Matt and attempts to restore their relationship. What happenes? He's with Milla. She realizes this and backs off but still comes back to help him when need be (i.e. NA).
Really, the main diffrence between Echo and Punisher/Elektra is this: her head is on straight. Those two still have a million and two mental issues.
:)
Tess/MG

Murdock's Girl
01-17-2006, 06:59 AM
This is also the reason why I don't like X-23. She is a ripoff of Wolverine and there already is too much Wolverine around as it is.

Thank you I thought I was the only person. :)



All I did was just point out that it has already been done. The only problem I had with it is how Ronin was drawn prior to Ronin showing that he was a she. All other images shown prior to her removing the helmet shown Ronin with broad shoulders and big arms. When she removed the helmet, she had narrow shoulders to fit the likes of a woman.
Why do people keep saying this? Did anyone see the conversation between Ronin and Cap? It was a chick with long black hair! Once again- to make everyone assume it was Elektra....



I have not liked the art in DAREDEVIL since it was revamped into a Marvel Knights series. Joe Quesada draws body parts just as large or larger than Rob Liefeld. Look at ASH and DAREDEVIL: FATHER for a good example of this.

That is just a preference thing- I can see where you are coming from. However, orginally you said you didn't read Parts of a Hole and Vision Quest because you didn't like David's Art- I was just letting you know that Parts of a Hole was not really David's Art (it is...but not as you would think)



I mentioned that I didn't like her appearances in DAREDEVIL due to the artwork, so it is quite obvious that I already knew about the character's appearances prior to NEW AVENGERS. I also have her first appearance listed on my Taskmaster website, so again it is obvious I knew about them. Just because I didn't read them does not mean I don't know about them.

Until you stated it now- yeah now I know. For the most part though- There are a lot of people critizing Brian for doing this WITHOUT knowing what the hell they are talking about- which would lead me to another rant completly.



Taskmaster did appear in DAREDEVIL long before Echo did. And the character has been "rehauled". It happened in TASKMASTER, DEADPOOL and AGENT-X.

That I didn't know- I thought you were talking about Taskmaster in the DD title as a revamp



Did Smith, Gale and Hall use Echo? To my knowledge it has only been David Mack and now Bendis (who asked permission to use the character).
I must have typed that weird but it worked in my head- what I ment was that Smith, Gale, and Hall didn't bother reworking taskmaster.



Then you are confussing yourself. It is rather simple. Taskmaster could have been used instead of creating a new character with Photographic Reflexes. And I mentioned good reason why Taskmaster could have been used since Taskmaster knows Daredevil's secret identity is Matt Murdock. It has been touched upon in every appearance that Taskmaster has had in a Daredevil related comic (DAREDEVIL and ELEKTRA).

ok-here is my thing,this is only my opinion so take it for what you will.

how many people know Matt/DD are one and the same? to many to count (which made the 'Out' arc very good in my opinion). I think- I THINK- that maybe - just maybe- David thought about putting a new chick in the MU. There really isn't that many of them if you think about it, let alone a 'triple minority' as my professor dubbed her. That's the reason that I like the character so much- she is just as 'flawed' as Matt.
:)
Tess/MG

Murdock's Girl
01-17-2006, 07:00 AM
Just because they have the same powers doesn't make them interchangeable. Two key elements of "Parts of a Hole" are Echo's naivete concerning the Kingpin, and her romantic attraction to Matt Murdock. Granted, having Taskmaster fall in love with Daredevil would have been a bold move, but I think it kinda worked out better the way Mack did it. :lol:

Thank you. that's an overlooked, and great point :)
Tess/MG

Murdock's Girl
01-17-2006, 07:05 AM
I have nothing against Echo. I actually like the character. On top of that, I'm totally thrilled that the character is an Avenger. I'm glad that someone is doing something with the character.

My problem is the execution of Her being Ronin. First of all, the fact that Ronin has been drawn as if it were a man under the costume. This can be seen as more of an artist not knowing who Ronin was supposed to be (or the fact that it's possable that ronin at one time was supposed to be another character all together). I think this is my biggest problem with the character. The Execution was all wrong.
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How many times am I going to have to point this out? (I wish my scanner was working so i can plug the image for you)- There is a sequence in which Cap is talkng to 'ronin' out of costume. All you see is the back of Echo and long black hair. The first read through I had of the arc- like most people- i was thinking it was Elektra. So, its the readers fault for thinking the whole 'ronin looks like a guy thing' - yea maybe she is drawn that way (hopefully that will get fixed)- but from that sequence with Cap you should have known it was a chick.
Tess/MG

Murdock's Girl
01-17-2006, 07:07 AM
I rarely follow characters - I follow creators. I hope Echo/Ronin is played true to her origin - I enjoyed the Daredevil stories - but I read them only because it was David Mack. The fact that she's now in Avengers doesn't make me want to read it any more now than I did. I'm apathetic about it either way. I enjoyed "Parts of a Hole" and "Vision Quest" precisely because they were non-traditional. Can she fit into a more standard Marvel U story? Well, sure - but that's boring.


Here's the thing- i think because of the character- she can fit into a MU story, but it would be anything but boring. Why? look at her! Like I mentioned before, maybe the Riot breakout would have gone completly differently if Echo was there (that, and I would love to see a Typhoid Mary/Echo fight )
Tess/MG

Lazy_Metaphors
01-17-2006, 06:48 PM
Like I mentioned before, maybe the Riot breakout would have gone completly differently if Echo was there (that, and I would love to see a Typhoid Mary/Echo fight )
Tess/MG

Well, yeah, but that's a traditional superhero sort of story. That's not what I read the original "Echo" stories for. I read them because they were abstracted and internal. That's not what New Avengers is about, and nor should it be. But I don't have an interest in what NA is about. That's my perogative.