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Thudpucker
12-08-2005, 03:08 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4509660.stm

Pretty much the poster child for Prison reform. What do you think, can people really change, redeem themselves of any act? And if they can, and do become different people (as this man apparently has) should they still be put to death?

Gavin
12-08-2005, 03:10 PM
I'm glad that he feels remorse for what he's done, but I think he still needs to pay for the crimes he committed.

copypastepuke
12-08-2005, 03:19 PM
im not a big fan of the death penalty. so that pretty much answers the poll.

Ray G.
12-08-2005, 03:21 PM
I oppose the death penalty. But as long as it's legal, it needs to be carried out. The only time a person should be spared is if there's doubt about his guilt.

Thudpucker
12-08-2005, 03:28 PM
I oppose the death penalty. But as long as it's legal, it needs to be carried out. The only time a person should be spared is if there's doubt about his guilt.

As long as it's legal, something wrong needs to be carried thru? Assuming you do believe it's wrong since you oppose it, that is an odd view.

Thomas Mauer
12-08-2005, 03:29 PM
His death now would solve less than giving him life without parole. He's doing a lot of anti-gang work now and it would be a shame if this effort to educate and show other options would be cut short.

Ray G.
12-08-2005, 03:35 PM
As long as it's legal, something wrong needs to be carried thru? Assuming you do believe it's wrong since you oppose it, that is an odd view.

I don't believe it's wrong. I believe it's pointless. However, he did the crime, he deserves to die. And since the US Government has determined that the death penalty should exist, this is one case where it should definitely be carried out. This is a man who murdered four people in cold blood. If I would have to commute a death sentence, it would be of a young man who was in a holdup that got out of control, not a brutal gang leader.

Genius J
12-08-2005, 03:44 PM
I think they should just put the name "Tookie" to death.

Nick Hale
12-08-2005, 03:47 PM
I don't believe it's wrong. I believe it's pointless. However, he did the crime, he deserves to die. And since the US Government has determined that the death penalty should exist, this is one case where it should definitely be carried out. This is a man who murdered four people in cold blood. If I would have to commute a death sentence, it would be of a young man who was in a holdup that got out of control, not a brutal gang leader.

I have to disagree here, hes not still a brutal gang leader, I agree that he should get life without parole he did kill four people, however like Tom said I think it would be a waste for a person doing as good of work as him at educating kids who would normally join a gang as to what kind of life it leads to and why you should avoid it, to be killed just to make a point, I think this is one of those extreme circumstances. Again its not like they are saying let him go, hes not even saying that really, just alot of people don't want to see his teaching end.

Gavin
12-08-2005, 03:47 PM
I think they should just put the name "Tookie" to death.

Is it a nickname, or is that really his legal name?

Genius J
12-08-2005, 03:48 PM
Does it matter?

Ray G.
12-08-2005, 03:48 PM
I have to disagree here, hes not still a brutal gang leader, I agree that he should get life without parole he did kill four people, however like Tom said I think it would be a waste for a person doing as good of work as him at educating kids who would normally join a gang as to what kind of life it leads to and why you should avoid it, to be killed just to make a point, I think this is one of those extreme circumstances. Again its not like they are saying let him go, hes not even saying that really, just alot of people don't want to see his teaching end.

So what you're saying is, anyone on death row should just put on a very good show of redemption, and they should have their sentence commuted?

Gavin
12-08-2005, 03:50 PM
Does it matter?

Probably not.

Nick Hale
12-08-2005, 03:58 PM
If a person is doing good from behind bars and they are on death row yes I think their death sentance should be commuted. I'm obviously not a fan of the death penalty in the first place, but I deffinatly think that if they are doing good why waste that, not enough people in this world do good. As for it being a show, the man has been nominated for the nobel prize multiple times, AND he is trying to keep kids from making the same mistakes he did.

Ray G.
12-08-2005, 03:59 PM
If a person is doing good from behind bars and they are on death row yes I think their death sentance should be commuted. I'm obviously not a fan of the death penalty in the first place, but I deffinatly think that if they are doing good why waste that, not enough people in this world do good. As for it being a show, the man has been nominated for the nobel prize multiple times, AND he is trying to keep kids from making the same mistakes he did.

He was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. But the greatest Jew-killer since Hitler WON the Nobel Peace Prize. So take that for what it's worth.

TenStoryMother
12-08-2005, 04:11 PM
If a person is doing good from behind bars and they are on death row yes I think their death sentance should be commuted. I'm obviously not a fan of the death penalty in the first place, but I deffinatly think that if they are doing good why waste that, not enough people in this world do good. As for it being a show, the man has been nominated for the nobel prize multiple times, AND he is trying to keep kids from making the same mistakes he did.

If his teachings are truly worthy then their message will live on whether the man is alive or not. If Tookie is not put to death for a terrible crime that he was found guilty of in a court of law, then it cheapens a law, the death-penalty, that our country has deemed right and fair. In my opinion, ask the families of the people he murdered. If each of them feel Tookie should be released then release him. If one family member thinks he should die then carry out the punishment our court system deemed necessary.

Thomas Mauer
12-08-2005, 04:31 PM
So what you're saying is, anyone on death row should just put on a very good show of redemption, and they should have their sentence commuted?
You know, the justice system *is* built on the idea that redemption is possible and should be actively pursued. Once a sentence is served, a convict is redeemed and can be part of society again.

Williams has shown how sincere he is about his change of heart. He wouldn't have become a multiple Nobel Peace prize nominee if that wasn't so. This is not a "very good show of redemption," it *is* redemption.

He's accepted that he can never live the life of a free man again. He decided to educate kids about gangs so they wouldn't go down the path he went. And that even though he's on death row! He could have just as easily said "screw this" and become part of the prison culture that ends with a shiv between the ribs.

How you can see the world in such stark terms of black and white is beyond me, man. It's a shame.

Thomas Mauer
12-08-2005, 04:34 PM
If each of them feel Tookie should be released then release him. If one family member thinks he should die then carry out the punishment our court system deemed necessary.
The "Save Tookie Williams" crowd doesn't even petition for an outright release, just for life without parole. How is such a change of his sentence cheapening the law when he can do so much good while alive?

Ray G.
12-08-2005, 04:44 PM
You know, the justice system *is* built on the idea that redemption is possible and should be actively pursued. Once a sentence is served, a convict is redeemed and can be part of society again.

Williams has shown how sincere he is about his change of heart. He wouldn't have become a multiple Nobel Peace prize nominee if that wasn't so. This is not a "very good show of redemption," it *is* redemption.

He's accepted that he can never live the life of a free man again. He decided to educate kids about gangs so they wouldn't go down the path he went. And that even though he's on death row! He could have just as easily said "screw this" and become part of the prison culture that ends with a shiv between the ribs.

How you can see the world in such stark terms of black and white is beyond me, man. It's a shame.

On the other hand, he killed four people. 90% of death row inmates are there for killing one or two. The man deserves to die. The only reason he's had time for this "change of heart" is that he was able to use the appeals process to last dozens of years, when there was no real doubt about his guilt.

Thomas Mauer
12-08-2005, 04:49 PM
On the other hand, he killed four people. 90% of death row inmates are there for killing one or two. The man deserves to die. The only reason he's had time for this "change of heart" is that he was able to use the appeals process to last dozens of years, when there was no real doubt about his guilt.
I'm not arguing his guilt, but what's so wrong about commuting his sentence to life without parole? That's still punishment enough. He's shown that from behind bars, he can have a positive influence. So while he's taking his punishment, he's actually doing good for society. Does that mean nothing?

Kensington
12-08-2005, 05:55 PM
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y5/LordKensington/square-large-mumia.gif

Kensington
12-08-2005, 05:59 PM
I'm not arguing his guilt, but what's so wrong about commuting his sentence to life without parole? That's still punishment enough. He's shown that from behind bars, he can have a positive influence. So while he's taking his punishment, he's actually doing good for society. Does that mean nothing?I think it might be more good, overall, for society to fully understand that you can't murder 4 people and escape the death penalty by becoming a better person after the fact. His reformation may be 100% sincere, but I don't see how one can dismiss the potential opportunism in such "redemption." I'm not impressed by nobel peace prize nominations, either, especially as it has become increasingly politicized over the last decade, such as with Yassar Arafat.

Ray G.
12-08-2005, 06:01 PM
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y5/LordKensington/square-large-mumia.gif

:D

Brian Defferding
12-08-2005, 06:05 PM
I don't know...I just don't know. I'm torn as to what I think about this issue.

Persevering Guy
12-08-2005, 06:08 PM
He could be an influential figure for troubled youths to leave gang life. If they kill him, he becomes a martyr and it'll just piss gangs off. Death penalty is a waste.

Mr. E!
12-08-2005, 06:17 PM
On the other hand, he killed four people. 90% of death row inmates are there for killing one or two. The man deserves to die. The only reason he's had time for this "change of heart" is that he was able to use the appeals process to last dozens of years, when there was no real doubt about his guilt.

Well, let's be clear here, he's responsible for a hell of a lot more than 4 murders. He started a gang that is responsible for countless deaths, and untold ammounts of human misery through drug dealing, extortion, murders, intimidation...how many young lives were ruined by what he started?
And now? After 6 straight years in solitary confinement, he came out changed. He's tried to save lives, and tear down what he built up. Can those scales ever be balanced? Has he saved more lives than he's ruined? How can something like that be measured?
Will his death bring anyone that he kiled back? No. Will his death serve any purpose other than vengance? Again, no. Could his life continue to serve as an example and a cautionary tale? Yeah, it could. I would rather err on the side of life, and let him continue to serve the community from his cell. I never want him to get out, and I think he should pay for his crimes until the day he dies, but I don't think the state should be the instrument of his death.

Mr. E!
12-08-2005, 06:21 PM
I don't know...I just don't know. I'm torn as to what I think about this issue.
I hear you. It's not easy. When you read about what he did, well, it's tough not to scream for the death penalty. But then, if you think he's legitimately changed and could continue to make positive contributions, well, what do you do?

Brian Defferding
12-08-2005, 06:22 PM
I hear you. It's not easy. When you read about what he did, well, it's tough not to scream for the death penalty. But then, if you think he's legitimately changed and could continue to make positive contributions, well, what do you do?

Exactly. There's just so many scenarios and reasons going through my head it's racking my brain.

Amos Moses
12-08-2005, 06:26 PM
I'd say let him have life in prison. He seems sincere in his remorse, and he has done a lot of good since being out.

RODGER
12-08-2005, 06:30 PM
i love the death penalty!!!!!

we should be killing people by the day and put it on dvd in box sets!!!!!

Blake Sims
12-08-2005, 10:23 PM
He shouldn't have to be put to death, mainly cause he has done some good behind bars. But he should still live out the rest of his life in prison.

SLAvery
12-08-2005, 11:47 PM
He did some horrible things... but the justice system is about what's best for society, not revenge. And in this case, a live Tookie clearly does more good than a dead Tookie.

BWC Boston
12-08-2005, 11:49 PM
He did some horrible things... but the justice system is about what's best for society, not revenge. And in this case, a live Tookie clearly does more good than a dead Tookie.
Word.

TenStoryMother
12-09-2005, 11:01 AM
The "Save Tookie Williams" crowd doesn't even petition for an outright release, just for life without parole. How is such a change of his sentence cheapening the law when he can do so much good while alive?

Once again, if the man's teachings are worthy of a Noble Peace Prize then they will live on continuing their good deeds far after Tookie is gone. It cheapens the law (or verdict) by deeming it useless. I agree that Tookie has changed his life. I wonder, however, if Tookie would have reached his life-changing conclusions without spending several years behind bars with no possible release in sight. While Tookie has had time to reflect upon and change his life, the people he murdered ceased to exist in the blink of an eye. The death penalty is a horrible act but an act that is used in response to the most horrible acts. If people feel strongly against the death penalty then they should be using this time to rally behind its change and not the saving of one guilty man.

Thudpucker
12-09-2005, 12:51 PM
Once again, if the man's teachings are worthy of a Noble Peace Prize then they will live on continuing their good deeds far after Tookie is gone. It cheapens the law (or verdict) by deeming it useless. I agree that Tookie has changed his life. I wonder, however, if Tookie would have reached his life-changing conclusions without spending several years behind bars with no possible release in sight. While Tookie has had time to reflect upon and change his life, the people he murdered ceased to exist in the blink of an eye. The death penalty is a horrible act but an act that is used in response to the most horrible acts. If people feel strongly against the death penalty then they should be using this time to rally behind its change and not the saving of one guilty man.

Becuase saving a mans life is such an unworthy persuit? Because human life is less important than an ideal of law?

NATE!
12-09-2005, 12:53 PM
Becuase saving a mans life is such an unworthy persuit? Because human life is less important than an ideal of law?

And the four lives he apparently took aren't important?

This is a lose-lose argument. If he lives, four murders go unpunished according to our laws. If he dies, we lose someone who is dedicating his prison life to teaching young people anti-gang philosophy.

Patrick J
12-09-2005, 12:56 PM
At this point, he's really probably more valuable to society being alive than dead.

SLAvery
12-09-2005, 01:15 PM
And the four lives he apparently took aren't important?

This is a lose-lose argument. If he lives, four murders go unpunished according to our laws. If he dies, we lose someone who is dedicating his prison life to teaching young people anti-gang philosophy.

Our society has many different laws regarding punishment for murder. It doesn't always require the death penalty. You definitely can't say he's going unpunished - he's still in prison for life with no parole, and that's the second most severe punishment that our justice system can give to anybody.

NATE!
12-09-2005, 01:25 PM
Our society has many different laws regarding punishment for murder. It doesn't always require the death penalty. You definitely can't say he's going unpunished - he's still in prison for life with no parole, and that's the second most severe punishment that our justice system can give to anybody.

What a punishment. He gets three square meals a day for life inside a concrete cage for killing four people. Shit, I'm surprised that starving children haven't gone on a muderous rampage yet just so they can be fed.

When people bring up the whole "life is precious" argument, I rarely notice them bringing up the victims in that argument. Like I said, it's lose-lose.

The Cheap-Arse Film Critic
12-09-2005, 01:34 PM
I suppose it all depends on whether or not you believe in the concept of redemption and forgivness. I do, so I believe anybody who can show, without a shadow of a doubt, that they have changed, than they should be allowed the chance. There is no redemption in death. Redempion is life, and by that, I mean your whole life- when you have done something that wrong, no one thing you will ever do will absolve you. You have to spend the rest of your life proving that people's faith in you was not misplaced. And when you shuffle off this mortal coyle, it is for us to decide whether of not you achieved redemption.

SLAvery
12-09-2005, 01:47 PM
What a punishment. He gets three square meals a day for life inside a concrete cage for killing four people. Shit, I'm surprised that starving children haven't gone on a muderous rampage yet just so they can be fed.

When people bring up the whole "life is precious" argument, I rarely notice them bringing up the victims in that argument. Like I said, it's lose-lose.

Yes, because clearly getting three crappy jail meals a day trumps being stripped of your freedom and dignity. The British probably could've stopped that pesky American revolution by handing out some sloppy joes.

And I never brought up any "life is precious" argument. I brought up the pragmatical argument - that more people would be helped by him being alive rather than dead. Please direct your straw-men elsewhere.

Griever
12-09-2005, 01:49 PM
High all. First post here YAY!. My feeling on this Tookie guy getting a second chance is this. Did he give the people he killed a second chance? He effectively erased all that those people would do, and all that they could've become. For that he diserves his sentence.

NATE!
12-09-2005, 01:52 PM
And I never brought up any "life is precious" argument. I brought up the pragmatical argument - that more people would be helped by him being alive rather than dead. Please direct your straw-men elsewhere.

And so did I, if you had read the whole post beforehand.