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View Full Version : I really didn't like Watchmen



Patton
11-01-2005, 07:29 PM
does everyone else really and truly think it deserves all the acclaim it gets?

Not really asking if you liked it, but just if you think it deserves to be part of the "bar"?

Flonk
11-01-2005, 07:30 PM
Yes. Yes it does.

stevapalooza
11-01-2005, 07:31 PM
does everyone else really and truly think it deserves all the acclaim it gets?

Not really asking if you liked it, but just if you think it deserves to be part of the "bar"?

What didn't you like about it? I'm just curious.

Kenneth I. Wolfe
11-01-2005, 07:31 PM
*head explodes*

But seriously, I need to read it again. My friend borrowed my copy and hasn't given it back to me. He hasn't even read it. He says it doesn't look good because of the art.

Is he crazy or wot?

Ziolko
11-01-2005, 07:32 PM
Yes. It's a huge hunkin' chunk of the bar, really. One may not always like the story, but it really is a technical masterpiece.

RøcketFrøg
11-01-2005, 07:33 PM
He says it doesn't look good because of the art.

Is he crazy or wot?
His head is all messed up by splash pages and Rob Liefeld. He can't appreciate the grid.

Gavin
11-01-2005, 07:35 PM
It is the bar. I think of it as the Lord of the Rings of the comic book world. So far above everything else, that you don't even take it into consideration anymore. Comparing any fantasy book to Lord of the Rings is stupid because Tolkien poured so much more into it than any other fantasy author alive. While Moore didn't put as much into Watchmen, I consider it above everything else.

Patton
11-01-2005, 07:36 PM
*head explodes*

But seriously, I need to read it again. My friend borrowed my copy and hasn't given it back to me. He hasn't even read it. He says it doesn't look good because of the art.

Is he crazy or wot?
yes. the art is outstanding. and certainly for the time.

dEnny!
11-01-2005, 07:36 PM
does everyone else really and truly think it deserves all the acclaim it gets?

Not really asking if you liked it, but just if you think it deserves to be part of the "bar"?

I loved it, but two of my friends found it to be boring. I sometimes think it depends on the mindset you are reading it in. I know if I was in the mood for a quick read I'd quickly get agitated. This is an in-depth piece by Alan Moore. I'm completely impressed by it and feel it warrants the acclaim it receives.

Patton
11-01-2005, 07:36 PM
It is the bar. I think of it as the Lord of the Rings of the comic book world. So far above everything else, that you don't even take it into consideration anymore. Comparing any fantasy book to Lord of the Rings is stupid because Tolkien poured so much more into it than any other fantasy author alive. While Moore didn't put as much into Watchmen, I consider it above everything else.
This helps because I also do not like Lord of the rings.

Mike Haseloff
11-01-2005, 07:36 PM
does everyone else really and truly think it deserves all the acclaim it gets?No. I think it deserves acclaim, but only when put into perspective.



Of course, I haven't been enticed enough to actually read it yet. :D

Patton
11-01-2005, 07:37 PM
I loved it, but two of my friends found it to be boring. I sometimes think it depends on the mindset you are reading it in. I know if I was in the mood for a quick read I'd quickly get agitated. This is an in-depth piece by Alan Moore. I'm completely impressed by it and feel it warrants the acclaim it receives.
Know what, maybe I did read it at the wrong time.

But I mean, It asn't because it was too short. I had just read every Preacher trade in the span of a week or so.

Kefky
11-01-2005, 07:37 PM
Get ready for people to hate you forever. :lol:


Then again, it COULD be worse... You could dislike Joss Whedon! :rofl:

Flonk
11-01-2005, 07:37 PM
Every time I read it, I get something different out of it.

DrMachine
11-01-2005, 07:38 PM
I read it for the first time just 4 years ago...and disliked it so much I've never picked up again

maybe I should give it another shot

jza1218
11-01-2005, 07:38 PM
Fuckin Most Awesomest Book Ever!!!

Patton
11-01-2005, 07:38 PM
What didn't you like about it? I'm just curious.
I wish I could pinpoint it other than it just felt...

meh.

And no one seemed to have a lot of personality.

Gavin
11-01-2005, 07:38 PM
This helps because I also do not like Lord of the rings.

Excellent. Well, there's no accounting for taste. But, it's not for everyone.

Kenneth I. Wolfe
11-01-2005, 07:39 PM
I read it for the first time just 4 years ago...and disliked it so much I've never picked up again

maybe I should give it another shot

Et tu?

Patton
11-01-2005, 07:39 PM
Get ready for people to hate you forever. :lol:


Then again, it COULD be worse... You could dislike Joss Whedon! :rofl:
who the fuck is Josh Whedon?

dEnny!
11-01-2005, 07:40 PM
I wish I could pinpoint it other than it just felt...

meh.

And no one seemed to have a lot of personality.

That's what one of my buddies said. He didn't like the characters at all.

Kefky
11-01-2005, 07:41 PM
who the fuck is Josh Whedon?

Shhh! don't let 'em in on it! :twisted:

jza1218
11-01-2005, 07:41 PM
How can you not like Rorsasch???

"YOURE TRAPPED IN HERE WITH ME!!!"

DrMachine
11-01-2005, 07:41 PM
Et tu?

I really WANTED to like it

Mike Haseloff
11-01-2005, 07:42 PM
That's what one of my buddies said. He didn't like the characters at all.Alan Moore loses his powers when you stop believing in him.

Patton
11-01-2005, 07:42 PM
That's what one of my buddies said. He didn't like the characters at all.
yeah.

Rorshach seemed pretty cool at first but then he seemed like a lot of loner types.

I didn't have anyone to root for.

I know it was well written and all that but...did nothing for me.

dEnny!
11-01-2005, 07:42 PM
Know what, maybe I did read it at the wrong time.

But I mean, It asn't because it was too short. I had just read every Preacher trade in the span of a week or so.

I think Watchmen is a comic that requires you to invest a lot of time into it and you don't always have that. That's why I try to gauge my mood for what I'm looking for and try to match it up with my choice of reading material. If I'm feelign stressed and rushed I'm not going to read anything by Alan Moore. Heck he had an issue of Promethea that took me an hour to read. But there are times I have time and want to really read a nice piece of literature and something like Watchmen, V for Vendetta, etc is the pefect selection.

I also try to mix things up. After reading Sandman I try to read something light and smaller. Sometimes I want to crank through a lot of books and sometimes I want to take my time and read the entire run of a comic.

Patton
11-01-2005, 07:42 PM
Alan Moore loses his powers when you stop believing in him.
I thought that for a while,.

Then I discovered ABC.

That is the Alan Moore for me.

Gavin
11-01-2005, 07:43 PM
yeah.

Rorshach seemed pretty cool at first but then he seemed like a lot of loner types.

I didn't have anyone to root for.

I know it was well written and all that but...did nothing for me.

I guess Moore actually wanted people to like Ozymadias best.

Mike Haseloff
11-01-2005, 07:45 PM
I thought that for a while,.

Then I discovered ABC.

That is the Alan Moore for me.ABC appealed a great deal to me, but it was a time when I wasn't really buying a lot of comics. My exposure to ABC is a Wizard promotional behind-the-scenes comic, and various articles.

To me, it looks like good, but reasonably typical fare.
Maybe you have to see it, to believe it.

Patton
11-01-2005, 07:45 PM
I guess Moore actually wanted people to like Ozymadias best.
I suppose.

But I spent way too long not.

dEnny!
11-01-2005, 07:45 PM
Right now I wish I had time to sit down and enjoy a nice read, but I'm too busy with work, school, and other things.

Gavin
11-01-2005, 07:46 PM
I suppose.

But I spent way too long not.

What about him did you not like? And Moore should have known everyone would latch onto the loner? People like to see themselves as the misunderstood loner.

Kenneth I. Wolfe
11-01-2005, 07:47 PM
I really WANTED to like it

Housten, we have a problem.

Read it again knowing what you know about... yeah.

Gavin
11-01-2005, 07:47 PM
Right now I wish I had time to sit down and enjoy a nice read, but I'm too busy with work, school, and other things.

What are you studying in school? I just finished my masters in May, and I'm so glad not to have homework anymore. Although, I do miss the mental stimulation. Now I just have to rely on the board for that, and it's been failing me.

NickT
11-01-2005, 07:48 PM
Every time I read it, I get something different out of it.
Cookies?

jza1218
11-01-2005, 07:48 PM
ABC appealed a great deal to me, but it was a time when I wasn't really buying a lot of comics. My exposure to ABC is a Wizard promotional behind-the-scenes comic, and various articles.

To me, it looks like good, but reasonably typical fare.
Maybe you have to see it, to believe it.

Tom Strong has some of the best stories ever written IMO

Patton
11-01-2005, 07:48 PM
ABC appealed a great deal to me, but it was a time when I wasn't really buying a lot of comics. My exposure to ABC is a Wizard promotional behind-the-scenes comic, and various articles.

To me, it looks like good, but reasonably typical fare.
Maybe you have to see it, to believe it.

Top Ten is great.

But Tom Strong is, to me, something that should never be missing from comics. Very inspiring.

The rest is also good. What I've read.

I think it's supposed to look like typical fair, by the way. I don't really think it is.

Patton
11-01-2005, 07:49 PM
Tom Strong has some of the best stories ever written IMO
marry me.

Patton
11-01-2005, 07:50 PM
Right now I wish I had time to sit down and enjoy a nice read, but I'm too busy with work, school, and other things.
make time for nightfisher.

MACK!
11-01-2005, 07:51 PM
I loved it. I read it at 16 yrs old and it really set the bar.
Everytime I read it since, I got more from it.

I haven't read it for over ten years because I lent it to someone and they never returned it.
But I thumbed thru it in a bookstore recently, and liked it all over again. It still had the same power and even more.

And I also thought of it after 911.
I find the book even more relevent today than when I first read it 16 years ago.

And I adored the characters. Dr. Manhatton and Rorshach especially. I think I related to them most. And also liked the Comedian.

I love the entire way it is told as well.

Mike Haseloff
11-01-2005, 07:52 PM
Tom Strong has some of the best stories ever written IMO
Top Ten is great.

But Tom Strong is, to me, something that should never be missing from comics. Very inspiring.

The rest is also good. What I've read.

I think it's supposed to look like typical fair, by the way. I don't really think it is.Tom Strong was one of the series that appealed to me a lot. I don't know if it was an accurate assumption in reflection, but initially it struck me as having a similar feel to golden age Superman.
That faux-retro style, with a cheesy barrel chested hero, and a heart of gold.

So, from that perspective, I can see how the general appearance could be part of the charm. For me, I just find it hard to believe it could be that spectacular. I imagine it as a blend of classics, and modern interpretation, to sort of spit out a solid blend of the best of both worlds.

Cobweb and the other pulpy one... Grey-something... they looked pretty cool to me, too.
Alas, I never got into them. :?

jza1218
11-01-2005, 07:53 PM
marry me.

I would if I could but I can't so I won't

jza1218
11-01-2005, 07:53 PM
I loved it. I read it at 16 yrs old and it really set the bar.
Everytime I read it since, I got more from it.

I haven't read it for over ten years because I lent it to someone and they never returned it.
But I thumbed thru it in a bookstore recently, and liked it all over again. It still had the same power and even more.

And I also thought of it after 911.
I find the book even more relevent today than when I first read it 16 years ago.

And I adored the characters. Dr. Manhatton and Rorshach especially. I think I related to them most. And also liked the Comedian.

I love the entire way it is told as well.

Ill trade you my copy of the book for a sketch :D

PLUS it gives me incentive to purchase the Absolute edition

Patton
11-01-2005, 07:53 PM
I would if I could but I can't so I won't
why can't you?

DrMachine
11-01-2005, 07:53 PM
Housten, we have a problem.

Read it again knowing what you know about... yeah.


Everytime I read one of your posts I hear it in my head as Groucho talking

:lol:

jza1218
11-01-2005, 07:54 PM
why can't you?

My girlfriend would kill me

Patton
11-01-2005, 07:54 PM
Tom Strong was one of the series that appealed to me a lot. I don't know if it was an accurate assumption in reflection, but initially it struck me as having a similar feel to golden age Superman.
That faux-retro style, with a cheesy barrel chested hero, and a heart of gold.

So, from that perspective, I can see how the general appearance could be part of the charm. For me, I just find it hard to believe it could be that spectacular. I imagine it as a blend of classics, and modern interpretation, to sort of spit out a solid blend of the best of both worlds.

Cobweb and the other pulpy one... Grey-something... they looked pretty cool to me, too.
Alas, I never got into them. :?
More like Silver Age supes to me. In a way.

Anyhow, you act like it's too late for you to pick some of this up.

Patton
11-01-2005, 07:55 PM
My girlfriend would kill me
pussy.

Kenneth I. Wolfe
11-01-2005, 07:55 PM
Everytime I read one of your posts I hear it in my head as Groucho talking

:lol:

Well... you're the doctor.

jza1218
11-01-2005, 07:55 PM
Tom Strong was one of the series that appealed to me a lot. I don't know if it was an accurate assumption in reflection, but initially it struck me as having a similar feel to golden age Superman.
That faux-retro style, with a cheesy barrel chested hero, and a heart of gold.

So, from that perspective, I can see how the general appearance could be part of the charm. For me, I just find it hard to believe it could be that spectacular. I imagine it as a blend of classics, and modern interpretation, to sort of spit out a solid blend of the best of both worlds.

Cobweb and the other pulpy one... Grey-something... they looked pretty cool to me, too.
Alas, I never got into them. :?

I'd recommend that if you have the time, the next time you're in your shop, just pop open one of the TPB's that Moore wrote and read a few of the stories. If you don't like it, you don't like it and all that you invested was a bit of time.

jza1218
11-01-2005, 07:56 PM
pussy.

She's quite violent...I get intimidated easily.

Mike Haseloff
11-01-2005, 07:57 PM
I loved it. I read it at 16 yrs old and it really set the bar.
Everytime I read it since, I got more from it.

I haven't read it for over ten years because I lent it to someone and they never returned it.
But I thumbed thru it in a bookstore recently, and liked it all over again. It still had the same power and even more.I imagine it to be a story that would have more resonance if it were an earlier story in your comic reading life (thus avoiding the inevitable influences, and developments in story telling since), and particularly if it were closer to the time it were released. Again, just because it's style was more relevent then.

I'm generally reasonably compromising when it comes to buying stories with art I don't like, but dry eighties colouring and inking really put me off. :p

Patton
11-01-2005, 07:57 PM
She's quite violent...I get intimidated easily.
I wasn't calling you a name.

jza1218
11-01-2005, 07:58 PM
Either or...I just felt like sharing

James Patrick
11-01-2005, 07:58 PM
If you'd read it in the 80s, after reading the other "mainstream" crap, you'd get it.

Everything mainstream before it feels like it leads up to it, everything after feels like it comes from it.

Want to appreciate it? Find out the month it came out that year, then go buy other comics that came out from the big 2 in that same month and year.

Doc Randy
11-01-2005, 08:00 PM
yeah.

I didn't have anyone to root for.

I know it was well written and all that but...did nothing for me.

That has to be the most pathetic bit of criticism ever.

Since when do you need someone to root for? God forbid someone break the mold and write a piece of fiction with unlikable protagonists. Oh Heavens no!

By saying it did nothing for you is more of a statement about you than about The Watchmen. :lol:

Mike Haseloff
11-01-2005, 08:00 PM
More like Silver Age supes to me. In a way.

Anyhow, you act like it's too late for you to pick some of this up.Generally with such a small and irregular comics budget, I tend to just write-off things I miss. So, even if I'm not doing that, that's why it'll seem like I might never read it.

If I get a chance, I might take a look at a Tom Strong trade.
I've been warming to trades as a way to taste things I skipped.

Whatever happened to Cobweb and Grey-Something?
I think I saw Cobweb toward the end there, but the other guy seemed to disappear relatively early in the piece.


I'd recommend that if you have the time, the next time you're in your shop, just pop open one of the TPB's that Moore wrote and read a few of the stories. If you don't like it, you don't like it and all that you invested was a bit of time.Ah, I'll probably pick one up one day to look at it in it's best light. I'm sure I'll like it.
I just can't imagine holding it in any great, singular regard. :?

Personally, and maybe crassly; as someone who's never read an Alan Moore story, I think there's a good chance he's overrated.

jza1218
11-01-2005, 08:00 PM
Whoa...Oni dissed you...

Patton
11-01-2005, 08:01 PM
That has to be the most pathetic bit of criticism ever.

Since when do you need someone to root for? God forbid someone break the mold and write a piece of fiction with unlikable protagonists. Oh Heavens no!

By saying it did nothing for you is more of a statement about you than about The Watchmen.
heh.

i wonder if you'll ever realize how immature and dumb your post is.

Flonk
11-01-2005, 08:02 PM
Personally, and maybe crassly; as someone who's never read an Alan Moore story, I think there's a good chance he's overrated.

That makes no sense at all.

Mister Mets
11-01-2005, 08:02 PM
does everyone else really and truly think it deserves all the acclaim it gets?

Not really asking if you liked it, but just if you think it deserves to be part of the "bar"?

2 points,
1. It's my favorite comic book, and has been since the first time I read it.
2. Your thread title refers to how you really don't like Watchmen, yet you ask people to say whether or not it should be part of the bar/ the comic by which all others are measured. What are people who liked it more than you did, but who think it's a good comic or even one of the bottom 50 or so best comics ever (in which case it's not the bar, but it's something they'd recommend freely) supposed to do?

jza1218
11-01-2005, 08:02 PM
Personally, and maybe crassly; as someone who's never read an Alan Moore story, I think there's a good chance he's overrated.

To be honest, I thought the same thing of him but when you read many of his books, you realize that the sheer number of quality books he has written makes him a legend in the industry.

If you haven't done so already, I'd also recommend searching for his Twilight of the Superheroes pitch. It's around in some corner of the internet I'm sure.

Mister Mets
11-01-2005, 08:03 PM
Get ready for people to hate you forever. :lol:


Then again, it COULD be worse... You could dislike Joss Whedon! :rofl:

Joss Whedon will hate you if you hate Watchmen, so if you hate Watchmen you get the wrath of all of his fans too.

Patton
11-01-2005, 08:04 PM
Whatever happened to Cobweb and Grey-Something?
I think I saw Cobweb toward the end there, but the other guy seemed to disappear relatively early in the piece.

I didn't read much of thier stories.

Greyshirt I think his name is.

Patton
11-01-2005, 08:05 PM
That makes no sense at all.
whether you agree with it or not, it makes sense.

Mike Haseloff
11-01-2005, 08:05 PM
That makes no sense at all.Yeah it does.


To be honest, I thought the same thing of him but when you read many of his books, you realize that the sheer number of quality books he has written makes him a legend in the industry.

If you haven't done so already, I'd also recommend searching for his Twilight of the Superheroes pitch. It's around in some corner of the internet I'm sure.I think I've glanced over it. I don't remember anything about it, but I'm pretty sure I liked it. Definitely an interesting take on a lot of the characters.

It'll be a tough sell to convince me he isn't overrated, but as I slowly but surely find his stories, I'll find out.

Patton
11-01-2005, 08:06 PM
Your thread title refers to how you really don't like Watchmen, yet you ask people to say whether or not it should be part of the bar/ the comic by which all others are measured. What are people who liked it more than you did, but who think it's a good comic or even one of the bottom 50 or so best comics ever (in which case it's not the bar, but it's something they'd recommend freely) supposed to do?

say thier opinion?

I think that's all I asked.

Patton
11-01-2005, 08:06 PM
Joss Whedon will hate you if you hate Watchmen, so if you hate Watchmen you get the wrath of all of his fans too.
huh.

I guess I wrote the word hate in some invisitext?

Doc Randy
11-01-2005, 08:06 PM
heh.

i wonder if you'll ever realize how immature and dumb your post is.

Oh, I'm totally immature and dumb. I freely admit it.

Regardless... even if you didn't like the story, you should still be able to reckognize the level of craft involved in the book as well as its historical significance. It really is one of the greatest comics ever. It is perfection.


And Nathan... I apologize about my snarky tone. You are entitled to your opinions. Instead of insulting you, I should have just done what most other posters have done - tried to educate you in the error of your ways. ;-)

For what it's worth, I didn't really care for PREACHER. Everyone tells me I'm an idiot for that. :D

Mister Mets
11-01-2005, 08:10 PM
Generally with such a small and irregular comics budget, I tend to just write-off things I miss. So, even if I'm not doing that, that's why it'll seem like I might never read it.

If I get a chance, I might take a look at a Tom Strong trade.
I've been warming to trades as a way to taste things I skipped.

Whatever happened to Cobweb and Grey-Something?
I think I saw Cobweb toward the end there, but the other guy seemed to disappear relatively early in the piece.

Ah, I'll probably pick one up one day to look at it in it's best light. I'm sure I'll like it.
I just can't imagine holding it in any great, singular regard. :?

Personally, and maybe crassly; as someone who's never read an Alan Moore story, I think there's a good chance he's overrated.

There's a reason he's considered the best in the business. Just check out his stuff, because right now I don't see why you have any need to post your opinions regarding something you know nothing about.

Patton
11-01-2005, 08:10 PM
Oh, I'm totally immature and dumb. I freely admit it.

Regardless... even if you didn't like the sory, you should still be able to reckognize the level of craft involved in the book as well as its historical significance..

I thought you could read. But it seems like you didn't read this thread.

Never said I didn't recognize the craft. In fact, I said I did.



And yes, it is one of the greatest comics ever. It is perfection.

Yeah, see this is an opinion. If you are able to read the definintion of it--I'd suggest also taking a look at that.

And I think it says a lot about your personality that you can't handle someone disagreeing with you.

Pretty pathetic.

Mister Mets
11-01-2005, 08:12 PM
If you'd read it in the 80s, after reading the other "mainstream" crap, you'd get it.

Everything mainstream before it feels like it leads up to it, everything after feels like it comes from it.

Want to appreciate it? Find out the month it came out that year, then go buy other comics that came out from the big 2 in that same month and year.

Daredevil #227-233
Batman #404-407
The Dark Knight
Superman: Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?
Saga of the Swamp Thing

And aside from the Big 2, another well-known comic book was being published...
Maus.

Doc Randy
11-01-2005, 08:13 PM
awwww come on Nathan....

We can still be friends.

I already apologized. ;-)

Mike Haseloff
11-01-2005, 08:15 PM
I didn't read much of thier stories.

Greyshirt I think his name is.That's the one!


There's a reason he's considered the best in the business. Just check out his stuff, because right now I don't see why you have any need to post your opinions regarding something you know nothing about.All-Star Batman & Robin is #1 two months running, partly because Miller is regarded as one of the best in the business. I think it's fair to say, love it or hate it, that All-Star Batman and Robin has not been a heaven sent just yet.

Everyone's got perspectives, and sometimes it's nice to get different ones. Maybe if I'd been cagier about admitting I hadn't read him, or had just never heard of him, I'd be more submissive.

I also had questions, and as the tone of the posts might suggest, I was just generally enjoying a conversation about comics.

Patton
11-01-2005, 08:16 PM
awwww come on Nathan....

We can still be friends.

It doesn't seem so.

Friends can respect each other's differences in opinions without unmerited, uncalled for hateful responses.

Civil people even can like and let like.

Patton
11-01-2005, 08:18 PM
All-Star Batman & Robin is #1 two months running, partly because Miller is regarded as one of the best in the business. I think it's fair to say, love it or hate it, that All-Star Batman and Robin has not been a heaven sent just yet.
It's hard when your heroes fall.

James Patrick
11-01-2005, 08:19 PM
Daredevil #227-233
Batman #404-407
The Dark Knight
Superman: Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?
Saga of the Swamp Thing

And aside from the Big 2, another well-known comic book was being published...
Maus.

Those all came out the month watchmen did? ;) And, uh, those are all (but two) written by Miller and Moore, which only proves the point. Watchmen is the pinnacle of those books, the representation of the change that was occuring (or would occur because of those comics) in mainstreame comics.

natalie
11-01-2005, 08:20 PM
does everyone else really and truly think it deserves all the acclaim it gets?

Not really asking if you liked it, but just if you think it deserves to be part of the "bar"?

Yes.

It's not my favorite book by him but it desrves all the accolades it gets and more. Someone already mentioned this but you have to remember when this was written and what was/had been happening in comics. But even now, it stands the test of time.

His run on Swamp Thing deserves more credit.

Mike Haseloff
11-01-2005, 08:23 PM
It's hard when your heroes fall.Yeah. :(

I like DKR, and it roughly put him in a similar class as Moore.
It's probably easier to do in light of things like ASB&R, but putting DKR into perspective now. He's not a God. :?

jza1218
11-01-2005, 08:24 PM
Yeah. :(

I like DKR, and it roughly put him in a similar class as Moore.
It's probably easier to do in light of things like ASB&R, but putting DKR into perspective now. He's not a God. :?

He kinda fell off his pedestal after DK Strikes Again and just never has gotten back on it.

Patton
11-01-2005, 08:26 PM
I like DKR.

But I kinda think Year One is better.

Patton
11-01-2005, 08:27 PM
awwww come on Nathan....

We can still be friends.

I already apologized. ;-)
why'd you add that?

niceguyeddie
11-01-2005, 08:27 PM
This helps because I also do not like Lord of the rings.

the movies are pretty frigging boring (at least the last two), but the books are awesome.

Mike Haseloff
11-01-2005, 08:27 PM
He kinda fell off his pedestal after DK Strikes Again and just never has gotten back on it.I liked DKR, and I liked DK2.

Of course, that was only a few years ago, so it was a completely different read.
I never had the opportunity to hold DKR in unreasonably high regard, so I never felt let down by DK2. For me, DK2 was just the next logical step in the story, with some shonky art.

I'm not a fan of Miller's eighties art, so even the art didn't crush my little heart. :p

jza1218
11-01-2005, 08:28 PM
I HATE Miller's art. I think that he should just write and let other people handle the visuals.

Doc Randy
11-01-2005, 08:29 PM
why'd you add that?

Cause you got all sensitive on me. Now I'm feeling like a giant douche. A big giant immature dumb douche.

Mike Haseloff
11-01-2005, 08:29 PM
I HATE Miller's art. I think that he should just write and let other people handle the visuals.Ditto, although... somehow I feel like I can make a definitive concession for Sin City. Even though it still contains a lot of the things I don't like about Miller's style.

Mister Mets
11-01-2005, 08:30 PM
All-Star Batman & Robin is #1 two months running, partly because Miller is regarded as one of the best in the business. I think it's fair to say, love it or hate it, that All-Star Batman and Robin has not been a heaven sent just yet.

Everyone's got perspectives, and sometimes it's nice to get different ones. Maybe if I'd been cagier about admitting I hadn't read him, or had just never heard of him, I'd be more submissive.

I also had questions, and as the tone of the posts might suggest, I was just generally enjoying a conversation about comics.

I haven't read any issues of All-Star Batman & Robin (waiting for the trade), so I don't really comment on it (I don't . It's pointless for me to do so. I've read Ronin, most of Miller's Daredevil, his other Batman work, all of Sin City, 300, Hard Boiled, and Jim Lee's runs on Batman & Superman so I feel I can provide my opinions on the creators involved. My comments on it would be questions like is it worth buying, or is it accessible, rather than making any judgement calls on the quality.

There's nothing wrong with saying you're interested in Moore's work, and asking what others think of it, but you strike me as unqualified to say that a creator whose work you've never read is over-rated. That's all.

Patton
11-01-2005, 08:32 PM
Cause you got all sensitive on me. Now I'm feeling like a giant douche. A big giant immature dumb douche.
well, but why'd ya add it in lieu of making a new post is what I meant.

I don't think i got sensative. People always say that. I wonder why. All I did was act like an adult.

Anyway apology accepted. No hard feelings.

I'll never buy another ONI book though.

Or Moore.

Or Bendis.

I'm leaving the board.

Mister Mets
11-01-2005, 08:32 PM
Those all came out the month watchmen did? ;) And, uh, those are all (but two) written by Miller and Moore, which only proves the point. Watchmen is the pinnacle of those books, the representation of the change that was occuring (or would occur because of those comics) in mainstreame comics.

Watchmen was released as 12 issues cover-dated between September 1986, and October 1987, so yea these books came out during the same months.

Patton
11-01-2005, 08:33 PM
the movies are pretty frigging boring (at least the last two), but the books are awesome.
See I thought 2 was okay. The others bored me.

never tried reading the books, I'll confess. Not my kind of subject matter.

Taxman
11-01-2005, 08:34 PM
This helps because I also do not like Lord of the rings.I have no idea what Lord of the Rings has to do with it at all.

James Patrick
11-01-2005, 08:34 PM
Watchmen was released as 12 issues cover-dated between September 1986, and October 1987, so yea these books came out during the same months.

I meant pick an issue, but that's cool. Same thing. My other point still stands though.

Mike Haseloff
11-01-2005, 08:34 PM
I haven't read any issues of All-Star Batman & Robin (waiting for the trade), so I don't really comment on it (I don't . It's pointless for me to do so. I've read Ronin, most of Miller's Daredevil, his other Batman work, all of Sin City, 300, Hard Boiled, and Jim Lee's runs on Batman & Superman so I feel I can provide my opinions on the creators involved. My comments on it would be questions like is it worth buying, or is it accessible, rather than making any judgement calls on the quality.

There's nothing wrong with saying you're interested in Moore's work, and asking what others think of it, but you strike me as unqualified to say that a creator whose work you've never read is over-rated. That's all.You never closed your bracket. OOOOH SNAP~!!! :crazy:

That's why I said it's a crass opinion. It's perfectly reasonable that I be deemed unqualified, but entirely unnecessary to object to when it's already a self admission.

I'm offering a perspective of a general comics fan, who just hasn't been interested enough to dive on Moore. I'm enjoying the convo, and enjoying gauging other people's opinions, necessarily informed or not.
There's an argument to be said that someone isn't qualified to talk about Moore's writing unless they've read everything before it; but I'm not going to hold that against you. ;)

jza1218
11-01-2005, 08:34 PM
All I know about the LOTR movies is that movies should either never be that long or theaters should really improve their seats...

Patton
11-01-2005, 08:35 PM
Ditto, although... somehow I feel like I can make a definitive concession for Sin City. Even though it still contains a lot of the things I don't like about Miller's style.
you guys smoke crack.

Miller's art is great in my opinion. always. from the first time I saw it on some Spider-Man cover when he's in jail to the variant cover for the latest issue of ASBARTBW

Allen Y
11-01-2005, 08:35 PM
All-Star Batman & Robin is #1 two months running, partly because Miller is regarded as one of the best in the business. I think it's fair to say, love it or hate it, that All-Star Batman and Robin has not been a heaven sent just yet.
ASB is number one because of the name power of Frank Miller and Jim Lee on a new Batman title, not to mention the 50/50 variant covers for the first issue.

Allen

Allen Y
11-01-2005, 08:36 PM
I like DKR.

But I kinda think Year One is better.
It is.

Allen

Patton
11-01-2005, 08:37 PM
I have no idea what Lord of the Rings has to do with it at all.
shouldn't really be responding to me then, should you?

sonnylarue
11-01-2005, 08:37 PM
Mark Waid puts it best, when he says beyond the fact that Watchmen is a great story,

it is also a diagram of how to make an incredibly well structured comic book, from a panel and page perspective.

Nothing is wasted. Every caption and layout says as much as any single image, or sequence can.

Patton
11-01-2005, 08:38 PM
Mark Waid puts it best, when he says beyond the fact that Watchmen is a great story,

it is also a diagram of how to make an incredibly well structured comic book, from a panel and page perspective.

Nothing is wasted. Every caption and layout says as much as any single image, or sequence can.
Hmm.

This I can kinda get on board with.

Mike Haseloff
11-01-2005, 08:39 PM
you guys smoke crack.

Miller's art is great in my opinion. always. from the first time I saw it on some Spider-Man cover when he's in jail to the variant cover for the latest issue of ASBARTBWHis Marvel Team-Up stuff, the way I remember it, is a clearner, more generically Marvel style.

As he comes into his own, I get less interested.
My favourite artists are guys like Mignola, Jae Lee, Oeming, Lark (and their respective collaborators), so you can sort of see I'm at an opposite end of the spectrum in a way.

This conversation has come up a lot with the guy [artist] I've been working with on a comic. I guess my ultimately preferred style is clean, definite in it's strokes, and uses solid blacks.

Things I don't like about Miller's art are similar to things I don't like about Romita Jr. The over use of unnecessary lines, and sketchy qualities that aren't necessarily... uniform or consistent to the style. I do like some sketchy styles, but generally there's more commitment to them.

Taxman
11-01-2005, 08:40 PM
shouldn't really be responding to me then, should you?I guess not, if that is the way you are going to be.

Mike Haseloff
11-01-2005, 08:41 PM
ASB is number one because of the name powerThat's what I was getting at -- and why I only said partly.
The other factors weren't relevent to my point. ;)

Patton
11-01-2005, 08:41 PM
His Marvel Team-Up stuff, the way I remember it, is a clearner, more generically Marvel style.

As he comes into his own, I get less interested.
My favourite artists are guys like Mignola, Jae Lee, Oeming, Lark (and their respective collaborators), so you can sort of see I'm at an opposite end of the spectrum in a way.

weird.

I see those artists as having a lot of kinship with Miller actually.

Patton
11-01-2005, 08:42 PM
I guess not, if that is the way you are going to be.
huh?

what way?

Mike Haseloff
11-01-2005, 08:43 PM
weird.

I see those artists as having a lot of kinship with Miller actually.Mignola and Lee, in particular, I see as being a lot cleaner. Mostly because of their thick blacks, I think.

EDIT: The blacks is the wrong emphasis, but it's part of it.
I think it's more the relationship between thick blacks (which I suppose Miller uses in Sin City), and the flatter remaining areas.
The shadows tell most of the story, and comfortably work with flat colours, and little more detail, because the shadow is the detail.

Whereas, Miller will draw a bottom lip that's made up of at least sixteen lines. :p

Mister Mets
11-01-2005, 08:44 PM
There's an argument to be said that someone isn't qualified to talk about Moore's writing unless they've read everything before it; but I'm not going to hold that against you. ;)

I've always believed that a work of art should stand up on its ow, and believers of that theory are crackpots. :D
Hug?

Allen Y
11-01-2005, 08:44 PM
That's what I was getting at -- and why I only said partly.
The other factors weren't relevent to my point. ;)
I wouldn't equate "name power" to "one of the best of the business," is all.

Allen

Mike Haseloff
11-01-2005, 08:54 PM
I've always believed that a work of art should stand up on its ow, and believers of that theory are crackpots. :D
Hug?:grope:


I wouldn't equate "name power" to "one of the best of the business," is all.I don't think they're necessarily one and the same, but in this case, the name power and being held in such high regard are inevitably one and the same.

VKValentine
11-01-2005, 08:55 PM
I feel Watchmen is one of the greatest examples of comic art. I understand when people say they can't get into the story, characters, etc, though.

xyzzy
11-01-2005, 09:02 PM
It's not one of my favorite stories, but I acknowledge it as a very influential and groundbreaking work. Much like Lord of the Rings. You don't have to like something to understand it's importance.

And Mike, stop imagining what you think all of these books are and just read them.

Genius J
11-01-2005, 09:18 PM
does everyone else really and truly think it deserves all the acclaim it gets?

Not really asking if you liked it, but just if you think it deserves to be part of the "bar"?
I didn't care for it, either. I stopped reading it around issue 6. I just couldn't get into it.

Yossarian
11-01-2005, 09:28 PM
I found Watchmen fairly difficult to get involved in as well. I think that I'd heard a lot of talk about how ground-breaking the series was but I was unprepared for how dense the story would be. It's really not a casual read. Also, I think that the "legendary" status applied to the work really has to be viewed in context of the time it was written. These days you can find numerous dense and gritty comics on the shelves, when Watchmen was written this was not the case. That old Batman TV show had done some damage...that and the initial crusade against comics as the corrupting force on our youth. I think about the people that must have felt comics were ruining everyone and think that if they only knew how much more efficiently we were able to corrupt ourselves today they'd be rolling over in their graves.

dEnny!
11-01-2005, 09:51 PM
What are you studying in school? I just finished my masters in May, and I'm so glad not to have homework anymore. Although, I do miss the mental stimulation. Now I just have to rely on the board for that, and it's been failing me.

I'm taking a class towards my MBA and currently working 50+ hours a week.

dEnny!
11-01-2005, 09:52 PM
Top Ten is great.

But Tom Strong is, to me, something that should never be missing from comics. Very inspiring.

The rest is also good. What I've read.

I think it's supposed to look like typical fair, by the way. I don't really think it is.

I really dig Moore's ABC work, but I've pretty much enjoyed everything he's written. A very smart writer.

The Human Target
11-01-2005, 09:53 PM
I read it in a sitting. Really enjoyed it. But its not my favourite Moore work. And I think its hard for us younguns to understand how it impacted comics then.

dEnny!
11-01-2005, 09:53 PM
heh.

i wonder if you'll ever realize how immature and dumb your post is.

I appreciate Randy's candor. And he raises a good point, you note that it is well written, but because there was no one to root for you didn't like it? Sometimes there is no one to root for in a story. Look at the last couple of elections. :p

Patton
11-01-2005, 09:55 PM
I appreciate Randy's candor.
only because it was directed at me.

if it was me saying that to someone else, I'd get a PM.

dEnny!
11-01-2005, 09:56 PM
Personally, and maybe crassly; as someone who's never read an Alan Moore story, I think there's a good chance he's overrated.

Oy vey. If you don't know what you are talking about, why are you talking about it?

dEnny!
11-01-2005, 09:58 PM
Oh, I'm totally immature and dumb. I freely admit it.

Regardless... even if you didn't like the story, you should still be able to reckognize the level of craft involved in the book as well as its historical significance. It really is one of the greatest comics ever. It is perfection.


And Nathan... I apologize about my snarky tone. You are entitled to your opinions. Instead of insulting you, I should have just done what most other posters have done - tried to educate you in the error of your ways. ;-)

For what it's worth, I didn't really care for PREACHER. Everyone tells me I'm an idiot for that. :D

I didn't like Preacher either. Wow...we have something in common. *jedi mind trick I want an Oni Christmas card this year. :twisted:

Patton
11-01-2005, 09:58 PM
Oy vey. If you don't know what you are talking about, why are you talking about it?
this is silly.

why do we speak of anything with conjecture?

this is what 75% of the board is.

he used all the right words: personally, think, chance.

He even admitted it might be crass.

and you guys still gave him hell.

dEnny!
11-01-2005, 09:59 PM
Watchmen was released as 12 issues cover-dated between September 1986, and October 1987, so yea these books came out during the same months.

Well Watchman was delayed/late in its shipping if I remember right.

Patton
11-01-2005, 09:59 PM
I didn't like Preacher either. Wow...we have something in common. *jedi mind trick I want an Oni Christmas card this year. :twisted:
clearly.


and you'll stop at no ass to get it.

dEnny!
11-01-2005, 10:03 PM
only because it was directed at me.

if it was me saying that to someone else, I'd get a PM.

I think comments like this is why your posts come off as being sensitive and not adult. It seems like you feel you are being targeted (and that is far from the case).

Patton
11-01-2005, 10:06 PM
I think comments like this is why your posts come off as being sensitive and not adult. It seems like you feel you are being targeted (and that is far from the case).

I didn't say just me...I said if it were me. I meant if it was someone else, basically.

And no one ever said I wasn't adult. I was the mature one. Your buddy randy even admitted that.

Some people will see what they want.

I'm sure you'd see it differently it knowing me made you cool.

dEnny!
11-01-2005, 10:08 PM
this is silly.

why do we speak of anything with conjecture?

this is what 75% of the board is.

he used all the right words: personally, think, chance.

He even admitted it might be crass.

and you guys still gave him hell.

Isn't that my job?

There are a lot of conversations to contribute to on this board, it seems odd to me to jump into one that you have no insight or experience with. I personally don't talk about a comic or creator who's work I'm not familiar with, at most I'll say, "Well I heard it was good/bad." He used the "right" words and made note of the fact that he's not familiar with Moore's work and that's great and I want him to be free to post in any thread he wants, but personally I don't get it. He probably has more knowledge of Moore than he gives himself credit for as well, but it's like this guy I work with who ALWAYS has something to say no matter what the topic is. It's just odd to me.

andrew french
11-01-2005, 10:14 PM
i enjoyed it. i'd like to read it again; unfortunately i've seen the 'real-world superheros' done so much before i read it, so i know it is important, but i can't fully appreciate it.

However, I REALLY like how the story was told. that was so beautifully done.

dEnny!
11-01-2005, 10:15 PM
I didn't say just me...I said if it were me. I meant if it was someone else, basically.

And no one ever said I wasn't adult. I was the mature one. Your buddy randy even admitted that.

Some people will see what they want.

I'm sure you'd see it differently it knowing me made you cool.

He might have said you were being adult/mature, but I agree with your assessment that many perceive your posts as being sensitive (the opposite so to speak). And pointing out that you were the "mature" one seems contrary to me, I don't know. And that last sentence speaks volumes in my opinion of your maturity, baffling. I completely agree though that "some people will see what they want."

Patton
11-01-2005, 10:19 PM
He might have said you were being adult/mature, but I agree with your assessment that many perceive your posts as being sensitive (the opposite so to speak). And pointing out that you were the "mature" one seems contrary to me, I don't know. And that last sentence speaks volumes in my opinion of your maturity, baffling. I completely agree though that "some people will see what they want."
I feel very sorry for you.

God bless you.

dEnny!
11-01-2005, 10:21 PM
I feel very sorry for you.

God bless you.

I do appreciate the blessings; always welcome.

Patton
11-01-2005, 10:29 PM
I do appreciate the blessings; always welcome.

I guess I just hope you're able to recognize the hypocrisy in almost every word you utter one day.

You appreciate Randy's candor but I have literally gotten PMed for less and you know it.

Explain that and then say that you don't have a predisposition to let your power here go to your head.

You've lied to me flat out in PMs and emails, yet claim such a high Christian moral standard.

I do pray that one day you'll realize these things. But I have sense enough to not believe it will happen.

Every time I think it's possible to have a mature conversation with you about comics, you bring personal things into it.

it's all right there. Search it out. Who went out of thier way to respond to a conversation that was none of thier business here. It didn't involve you at all and it was an argument and you went out of your way to condone it.

I wish more people knew who you truly were. I mean plenty do, I've spoken to many, MANY people who do.

I'm sure you'll ban me for this, but shouldn't you merely appreciate my candor?

dEnny!
11-01-2005, 10:41 PM
I guess I just hope you're able to recognize the hypocrisy in almost every word you utter one day.

You appreciate Randy's candor but I have literally gotten PMed for less and you know it.

Explain that and then say that you don't have a predisposition to let your power here go to your head.

You've lied to me flat out in PMs and emails, yet claim such a high Christian moral standard.

I do pray that one day you'll realize these things. But I have sense enough to not believe it will happen.

Every time I think it's possible to have a mature conversation with you about comics, you bring personal things into it.

it's all right there. Search it out. Who went out of thier way to respond to a conversation that was none of thier business here. It didn't involve you at all and it was an argument and you went out of your way to condone it.

I wish more people knew who you truly were. I mean plenty do, I've spoken to many, MANY people who do.

I'm sure you'll ban me for this, but shouldn't you merely appreciate my candor?

Why would I ban you? I have always told everyone here that they can speak their mind about me and my moderating either by pm, e-mail, or posts. I've never banned/suspended anyone for comments made about me.

I have never claimed to be perfect so I'm sure I have done things that are hypocritical. It may be a part of being human, it may be a learning process, but I try my best.

I didn't pm you regarding your comments towards Randy and they were similar, wouldn't you agree? He called your criticism pathetic and you his post immature and dumb. I don't believe I've pm'd you in a very long time.

While it may have been an "argument" it was one that was handled well. You all discussed it, I stated my opinion. Randy's candor can cost him business. Many publishers would opt to say nothing, but he disagreed with your criticism, stated as such (could have been stated better) and has a lot more to lose.

The Roman Candle
11-01-2005, 11:08 PM
... I don't think we can be friends. :scared:

Angel
11-02-2005, 02:19 AM
i liked the way the story was written and i understand the societal parrallels of the time since i grew up in the 80's and 90's. i also see the significance of it's contribution to comics, but reading it casually, i didn't like it. i didn't care for some of the characters which drew me out of the story.

and i'm sorry, i thought the point of characters was to identify with them on some level so that the ideas trying to be conveyed would come across more easily.

i don't think we should be giving people shit just because they don't like something you do. they're called opinions for a reason, latin root, meaning to think.

Mike Haseloff
11-02-2005, 03:04 AM
Oy vey. If you don't know what you are talking about, why are you talking about it?Because when I've read a heap of Alan Moore, and know he's overrated for a fact, we won't be able to have this delicious repartee.

J. Wilson
11-02-2005, 03:08 AM
I think it belongs in the pantheon of great comic stories. Far too many people cite it as an example of greatness of the medium.

However, I just could not get into it myself.

joespam
11-02-2005, 03:53 AM
Watchmen deserves every piece of praise it gets. It fully deserves to be the bar.

I understand anyone who can't identify with any of the characters; they are to a large degree unlikeable people, with the possible exception of Night Owl, who's a well meaning and loyal schlub. Which is why I find it amusing that I've read here that many seem to think Rorsharch is 'supposed' to be who the audience should identify with. He starts out a little harsh maybe, but okay, being the focus of issue one, but goes downhill after that. The Comedian is repulsive and unfunny, Dr. Manhattan is eerily inhuman, and Silk Specter is unrepentantly bitchy and whiny. Night Owl seems to be the only redeemable guy to hang your hat on, and he's boring for most of the series until he gets laid.

I think the story was and is still brilliant. A perfect world-changing mystery story. I never saw the three(?) major twists coming, I never figured out who Rorshach was until I saw his face and went back and looked for him in the previous issues, and how each character fits into the whole story is amazing. There are thorougly brilliant moments throughout the story - for example, knowing Rorscharch's history, the moment where he stares at the child at the end is one of the most powerful dramatic moments I've ever seen. Along with Laurie's apology to her mom at the very end, one of my favorite character bits ever.

A lot of its topicality seems quaint reading it now because of its referencing to specific things in the 80s like Reagan's presidency, the Cold War, and the Russians in Afghanistan, but that's truly the only weakness of the book I can see (beyond having sfew people to root for, which is a quasi-legitimate gripe if that's a requirement you have for enjoying or getting into a story).

But that wasn't the question.

And I'm really puzzled at the assertion that there are plenty of other books as dense as Watchmen. There can't be more than five that I've read since that even approach the density level of juxtaposed theme reinforcement within the story, repeating visual motif, panel design/structure, supplemental writings supporting the larger story, and character complexity. I'd like those that believe there are others that compare to post 'em because I truly don't think there are any that compete in all ways.

Moore put it all in this book. Questioning whether it deserves its status makes most people question whether you missed something (or as evidenced by this thread, skip straight to assuming you ain't that bright). Liking it is one thing, but not getting it is another. I didn't like Citizen Kane at all, but I fully understand why it's considered one of the best and most revolutionary films of all time. The same applies here.

Michael John Wheeler
11-02-2005, 03:57 AM
I didn't like it either, Nathan. It was only the last few pages that redeemed the work for me.

jason hissong
11-02-2005, 04:05 AM
Watchmen is good. But not everything is for everyone.

It's okay not to like something.

Besides, From Hell > Watchmen.


-j

AAlgar
11-02-2005, 04:12 AM
I love it. It's one of those books I pull down every few years and read again.

But I really don't see the need to insist that other people like it. Either you do or you don't.

Matt Jay
11-02-2005, 04:31 AM
I think it's the best comic, if not the best story, I've ever read.

My only gripes are minor: I wasn't into the shipwreck story at all and the Kitty Genevese story felt completely shoehorned.

SteveZegers
11-02-2005, 04:43 AM
It's good, but there are a bunch of stories I like much more. (I do prefer "hopeful and happy" over "dark and bleak" in most cases)

mario
11-02-2005, 04:47 AM
Besides, From Hell > Watchmen.

-j

and V for Vendetta > from Hell

joespam
11-02-2005, 05:09 AM
My only gripes are minor: I wasn't into the shipwreck story at all and the Kitty Genevese story felt completely shoehorned.I'm with ya - I hated the Pirate story until I figured out that the entire thing was a metaphor for Ozy.

Never really had an opinion the Kitty Genovese story one way or another, aside from it being a horrible thing to happen. But I found out a few years after I read Watchmen that it's a true event, and knowing that seemed to give it that much more weight, so I concluded it was aptly used in the story.

WAKKAJAWAKKA
11-02-2005, 05:14 AM
I Did Not Like It. I Understand What Went Into Making It, And Bravo On How Great It Is An Whatever, But It Bored Me, I Knew Who The Killer Was ALmost Right Away, The Motive Wasn't A Huge Shocker Or Anything. Mostly I Saw Club Dredd Before I Read This, And They Have The Same Plot. One Of A Group Gets Killed, One Of The Group Does The Killing, Just Different Motives. So I Saw It As A Boring Club Dredd. And Club Dredd Wasn't That Great To Begin With.

Wayno.

Matt Jay
11-02-2005, 05:14 AM
I'm with ya - I hated the Pirate story until I figured out that the entire thing was a metaphor for Ozy.

Never really had an opinion the Kitty Genovese story one way or another, aside from it being a horrible thing to happen. But I found out a few years after I read Watchmen that it's a true event, and knowing that seemed to give it that much more weight, so I concluded it was aptly used in the story.
Hm. I didn't know it was a metaphor for Ozy. I'll have to check it out again.

I was turned off of the Kitty story because I was a psych major, and I had studied that event about 3-4 times before I read it in Watchmen. So at that point it felt cliched.

Mylazycat
11-02-2005, 05:21 AM
I got a phone call, was away from the board for a few mins, came back to this thread and for the first few posts thought I was still in the "1992 Have you read this comic called Spawn?" thread. Swear to goodness, this is true.

justjeffery
11-02-2005, 05:24 AM
and V for Vendetta > from Hell

God, From Hell bored me to tears... I've yet to finish reading it. I'll start.. get 50 or 60 pages into it and realize that I'm forcing myself to read it... which is no fun, so I put it off to the side yet again...

I'm trying to read Captain Britian right now and it's the same.. just cant get into it...

modungo
11-02-2005, 05:30 AM
does everyone else really and truly think it deserves all the acclaim it gets?

Not really asking if you liked it, but just if you think it deserves to be part of the "bar"?
Although I love Watchmen, I'm even more fond of people who don't like it. I'm fucking sick of people who can't get over it. If nothing has come close to it in the last 20 years, why the fuck are you still reading comics?
I myself did go though a phase where I thought it seemed dated and silly. Luckily George W came along and gave it back it's relevance.
Also Dave Gibbon's 9 panel thing is some of the coolest comic art ever so I could never fully turn against Watchmen.

Xander Boune
11-02-2005, 05:32 AM
I really like the comic, but I like it more for how technically brilliant it is as opposed to the actual story itself. I've had friends who don't read comics try it, and they didn't enjoy it (they found it boring and had trouble getting through it). I think V for Vendetta is the better Alan Moore story.

Raphael J
11-02-2005, 05:33 AM
I read it over the summer, and thought the cratsmanship that went into it was astounding, and that it was a very good story. But, I find myself actually enjoying Moore's other works, such as Top 10, more than I enjoyed reading Watchmen.

It's one of the best comic book stories I've ever read. Pound for pound, it's done so much to change the way writers and artists can tell stories, but I just find myself enjoying other stories more.

SteveZegers
11-02-2005, 05:42 AM
I also think it could be a case of it not living up to the "hype". Everyone telling you it's the best book ever for years and years, it couldn't possibly be as good as everyone told you it was. You can't recreate the experience of reading it when it first came out.

ERNIE_E
11-02-2005, 06:00 AM
There's a great article in the new Entertainment Weekly (Wtih Charlize Theron on the cover) which interviews both Moore and Gibbons on the relevance and process in which they made the series. It also discusses the people who were influenced and later affected them in their own creations. Check it out. Great to see Watchmen get the praise it deserves--always. So my answer is, yes it is as good as touted and even more important in the comics you enjoy today would probably be as good if this wasn't such a influential touchstone for everyone today. It also helps to have lived ad be consious of the world climate in the Reagan era.

Flonk
11-02-2005, 06:06 AM
I like DKR.

But I kinda think Year One is better.

Year One is easily the best Batman story

mattbrand
11-02-2005, 06:07 AM
Year One is easily the best Batman story

Really? I haven't read it yet. Guess I know whats next on my trade purchase list.

Balthazar
11-02-2005, 06:07 AM
I like Watchmen and appreciate it, but personally I think DKR is a better work. It's as groundbreaking, as revolutionary and much more accesable for the average reader. JMO.

justjeffery
11-02-2005, 06:07 AM
Year One is easily the best Batman story

Year One is fantastic, but I much prefer Year Two...

Flonk
11-02-2005, 06:08 AM
I HATE Miller's art. I think that he should just write and let other people handle the visuals.

That's insane. I'm not very happy with his current style, but his older stuff, especaily early Sin City is amazing. All art schools should have a required course in Frank Miller.

Flonk
11-02-2005, 06:19 AM
and V for Vendetta > from Hell

See, I could never get into either of these. V for Vendetta bored me and I only made it about 10 pages into From Hell before I put it down. The art was unbearable.

Flonk
11-02-2005, 06:20 AM
Really? I haven't read it yet. Guess I know whats next on my trade purchase list.

Get the hardcover. It's only $20

natalie
11-02-2005, 06:26 AM
See, I could never get into either of these. V for Vendetta bored me and I only made it about 10 pages into From Hell before I put it down. The art was unbearable.

Unbearable!?!

Didn't you think it was insane for not liking Miller's art? I'll say the same thing about not liking Eddie Campbell's art.

Flonk
11-02-2005, 06:28 AM
Unbearable!?!

Didn't you think it was insane for not liking Miller's art? I'll say the same thing about not liking Eddie Campbell's art.

eeeeeeh. I see what he was going for there, but it didn't work for me. I know I'll get flamed for this but, I saw it much like I see David Mack's stuff. Great art, doesn't work at all in comics.

McAfee
11-02-2005, 06:30 AM
Really? I haven't read it yet. Guess I know whats next on my trade purchase list.

Absolutely true. Year One is great. And cheap. :D

DKR is simply okay. Hell, Hush is as good as DKR, IMO. Take that as you will.

As for Watchmen...the first time I read the trade (about 3 years ago), I read it straight through. I was about to stab myself in the head for buying it before I got to the fifth chapter. That's how bored I was. Then something kicked it into gear, and I was unable to put it down. The big revelation didn't really shock me or anything, but the way Moore brought it all together and didn't give it a nice tidy happy ending was rather inspiring, I thought.

I read it again earlier this year, leaving out the newspaper articles at the end of each chapter, and found it had a much better flow early on. Issue #7 is probably, from a comic creator standpoint, the most outstanding technical achievement in the history of comics.

St.-
11-02-2005, 06:32 AM
Year One is fantastic, but I much prefer Year Two...

:lol:


For me watchmen had a very uneven flow to it. I enjoyed it but it's a pain to read.

RebootedCorpse
11-02-2005, 06:34 AM
It is, without a doubt, the best superhero series ever printed.
Moore's work is masterful in that there is not a single wasted panel and he explores the psychology of the whole costumed-hero paradigm at a level that has never been touched before or since.

dEnny!
11-02-2005, 04:11 PM
Because when I've read a heap of Alan Moore, and know he's overrated for a fact, we won't be able to have this delicious repartee.

I'd miss it too. *sniff...

spencerdidyrmom
11-02-2005, 05:10 PM
I don't know if anyone has chimed in on this but Moore's Swamp Thing was stellar.

Mike Haseloff
11-02-2005, 05:10 PM
I'd miss it too. *sniff...We'll always have Paris.

Ben Rosen
11-02-2005, 05:11 PM
i really liked it, and i thought it was great.

but i would not say it's the pinnacle of the medium or the best the medium has to offer.