View Full Version : IronMan#5
chrismarker
08-22-2005, 07:20 PM
Hope # 5 plays out a lot of politics suggested in earlier issues. Really want to see where Ellis takes the whole "biological combatant" thread and where that might leave Tony since he's no longer really human anymore? (It would be a bit too neat if Tony just dosed without some serious side effects, no?).
Also wondering how Ellis is going to flesh out Mallen's racism. It's too serious an issue just to leave hanging in #4 (especially in the context of using a drug to create a super-soldier), and if Iron Man doesn't address it directly, it's almost, well, cowardly? (I mean it's ideas that are far more dangerous than any indvidual act of violence)...
Its really sad when marvel has to rush and do another Iron Man mini because of the lateness of this book. http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/ironman/inevitable.htm (http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/ironman/inevitable.htm) :sad:
Adi Granov
09-07-2005, 11:07 AM
Hmm, I don't think they are rushing anything. If there is a good story to tell I see nothing wrong with that especially if there is room in the market created by the lateness.
Hmm, I don't think they are rushing anything. If there is a good story to tell I see nothing wrong with that especially if there is room in the market created by the lateness.In the article it reads like they rushed to do the book to keep iron man out there. Its in the articled with Joe Casey.
Adi Granov
09-07-2005, 12:16 PM
well maybe. I don't really know anything about it. I really like the artist, and I am sure Joe Casey will tell a great story.
well maybe. I don't really know anything about it. I really like the artist, and I am sure Joe Casey will tell a great story.You should check out the article.
chrismarker
09-09-2005, 08:33 PM
You should check out the article.
It says they're brignng back the Ghost and the Living Laser as villians, but yet keeping within Ellis' vision of Iron Man. I don't possibly see how. It's precisley the realism of this book that makes it so effective.
Adi, I was reading some stuff on Richard Estes and it described his "photo-realist" style as an ilussion. Apparently he takes hundreds (thousands?) of polaroids from different angles/perspectives and then coheres them into a point of view that doesn't exist in reality. I wasn't sure what it quite meant, but I do feel the same 'real-unreality' in your work, which I think is a great strength.
Anyway, I think you and Warren have kind of rendered classic Iron Man villians as, well, obselete?
It says they're brignng back the Ghost and the Living Laser as villians, but yet keeping within Ellis' vision of Iron Man. I don't possibly see how. It's precisley the realism of this book that makes it so effective.
Adi, I was reading some stuff on Richard Estes and it described his "photo-realist" style as an ilussion. Apparently he takes hundreds (thousands?) of polaroids from different angles/perspectives and then coheres them into a point of view that doesn't exist in reality. I wasn't sure what it quite meant, but I do feel the same 'real-unreality' in your work, which I think is a great strength.
Anyway, I think you and Warren have kind of rendered classic Iron Man villians as, well, obselete?I think it can be done and also be more entertaining than the current arc.
chrismarker
09-10-2005, 08:23 AM
I think it can be done and also be more entertaining than the current arc.
Maybe for a 15 year old audience. Otherwise I think villians like the Living Laser and the Ghost are almost too goofy, or just too unbelievable, to be as either dramatically effective or relevant as this arc. That's why I wonder where Ellis has left the future of the character.
Again, I think people who really dig this arc do so because of it's relevance and realsim. And to just switch gears and retrun to old time Iron Man villians would actually be disaapointing -- unless they, too, undergo the same kind of transfromation that Ellis/Granov have made with Iron Man.
My guess is the fans of this arc are more interested in Iron Man stories that focus on REAL issues/politics of the world as well as Tony's personal odyssey, his hatred of himself, the war of identity within himself.
I ceratinly don't want to see panels of "supero hero" fights between Iron Man and some guy with "Ghost" powers, or who has impossibly unrealistic powers like the Living Laser -- It strains credibility and requires too much pseudo mumbo jumbo dialogue to explain. Do you know those old issues with the "Laser?" -- How Iron Man would dfeat him by disrupting his laser beams with alternating repulsor fequencies, etc. etc. -- Please don't take us back to that!
Adi Granov
09-10-2005, 10:48 AM
Most people who come up at signings and say they really like Extremis also say that it's the first time they've picked up Iron Man in a long time, if ever. Which leads me to assume that our story is the kinda thing that appeals to a different kind of audience, both in theme and art style. While most real vocal "haters" usually come down to the fact that the book is late as their ultimate weapon, I really can't say that bothers me at all as much as the criticism that there aren't any known supervillains for Iron Man to fight. That is the exact thing that would really turn me off from doing this kind of story because it's what's dragging the whole medium down into a self-repeating cycle of self-parody. It's like the WWE where you get the same exact cast of costumed characters fighting eachother in slightly different choreographies with the players occasionally swapping sides. I mean seriously, how many times is a superhero A supposed to beat a supervillain b until you eventually completely run out of anything new to say?
chrismarker
09-10-2005, 12:24 PM
... That is the exact thing that would really turn me off from doing this kind of story because it's what's dragging the whole medium down into a self-repeating cycle of self-parody. It's like the WWE where you get the same exact cast of costumed characters fighting eachother in slightly different choreographies with the players occasionally swapping sides. I mean seriously, how many times is a superhero A supposed to beat a supervillain b until you eventually completely run out of anything new to say?
Exactly. Mallen's so effective because he's not a ready-made. He doesn't have a super-hero suit, he's an avowed racist, and he fights with his bare hands: it all makes for a violence that feels too real, like it could happen to you (and it makes Adi's choice of Mallen as his moderator icon a bit creepy (ha!)).
The other thing is that I don't know how one goes down the traditional villian raod again given Tony's recogintion that he's just a "guy in an iron suit." It's a realization that would seem to make the traditional villian who wears a super-villian suit seem, well, silly (like a WWF character).
Most people who come up at signings and say they really like Extremis also say that it's the first time they've picked up Iron Man in a long time, if ever. Which leads me to assume that our story is the kinda thing that appeals to a different kind of audience, both in theme and art style. While most real vocal "haters" usually come down to the fact that the book is late as their ultimate weapon, I really can't say that bothers me at all as much as the criticism that there aren't any known supervillains for Iron Man to fight. That is the exact thing that would really turn me off from doing this kind of story because it's what's dragging the whole medium down into a self-repeating cycle of self-parody. It's like the WWE where you get the same exact cast of costumed characters fighting eachother in slightly different choreographies with the players occasionally swapping sides. I mean seriously, how many times is a superhero A supposed to beat a supervillain b until you eventually completely run out of anything new to say?We havnt even seen issue one yet before we assume its the same old supervillian fighting super hero. I look at the Brubaker/Epting cap arc which shows how you can effectively do both.
Adi Granov
09-12-2005, 04:32 PM
I wasn't talking about Iron Man, I have no clue at all what that will be about, I was talking in general terms. Don't assign meanings to my words that weren't there. I am looking forward to the miniseries not because of the character but because I think the talent involved will tell a good story.
I wasn't talking about Iron Man, I have no clue at all what that will be about, I was talking in general terms. Don't assign meanings to my words that weren't there. I am looking forward to the miniseries not because of the character but because I think the talent involved will tell a good story.It wasnt to you.
chrismarker
09-13-2005, 09:01 AM
It wasnt to you.
That article you posted said they were going to stay with where Ellis/Granov had taken Iron Man, right? All I'm saying is that that would seem very difficult to do if you bring in villians like the Ghost and Living Laser because of the affecting realism of the current arc.
Yes, obviously, talented writers/artists could do it, but my question would be why? Why bring back older villians who seem more oriented for teenage audiences with their costumes and super-duper powers, and even goofy names (like Titanium Man :surrend: ).
Why not stay with the realism that this arc has rendered? Why not stay with the issues this arc has only begun to mine? Issues of militarism, racism, identity, and self-extinction? Those issues are real. They matter. And they're still very threatening.
Why would you want to shift the focus from that to what does seem to be more juvenille and apolitical conflcits like Iron Man V.S. Titanium Man, etc. etc.?
That article you posted said they were going to stay with where Ellis/Granov had taken Iron Man, right? All I'm saying is that that would seem very difficult to do if you bring in villians like the Ghost and Living Laser because of the affecting realism of the current arc.
Yes, obviously, talented writers/artists could do it, but my question would be why? Why bring back older villians who seem more oriented for teenage audiences with their costumes and super-duper powers, and even goofy names (like Titanium Man :surrend: ).
Why not stay with the realism that this arc has rendered? Why not stay with the issues this arc has only begun to mine? Issues of militarism, racism, identity, and self-extinction? Those issues are real. They matter. And they're still very threatening.
Why would you want to shift the focus from that to what does seem to be more juvenille and apolitical conflcits like Iron Man V.S. Titanium Man, etc. etc.?My thing is that you can take old and make new villians and do both. Do you really want to alienate either side? Not everyone wants just spandex villians or just the more realistic villians. Most want a mature variety of both styles.
chrismarker
09-13-2005, 06:26 PM
I don't know? What do you think Adi? I mean, I look at Mallen and he's flat out scary. But when I look at the Ghost, Laser, Titanium Man, they seem almost hamstrung by their "roles" as supervillians.
Look at Mallen's expression in Adi's icon. Whatever's going on there, I don't think you'll find it with Ghost/Laser/Titanium man.
Adi Granov
09-14-2005, 07:15 AM
Well, as some books have proven you can spin the old villians and make them relevant and cool again. But for some it really takes a major reworking in order to make them work, so much so that I don't know if it's not just better to introduce a whole new character instead of trying to make the outdated one work. But some readers seem to be more interested in familiarity than anything that might challenge the established. So, people complain that Mallen isn't a supervillian even though he's obviously hugely powerful, very scary and has singlehandedly beat Iron Man. How is he not a supervillian then? I guess if we gave him a cape and a logo on his chest he'd be more valid?
The way I see it is that certain kind of characters work in certain kind of stories. I love some of the costumed heroes and villians, but I like for them to make sense in the context of the story, not just because it's cool to have them in spandex. So for the technological thriller with nano-tech weaponry and domestic terrorism it really makes little sense to end up having the perpetrator being some well known masked villian that Iron Man has fought before, it would not only cheapen the story Warren is telling but would completely ruin the whole point of it all.
Mallen doesnt have to be a super villian to be intersting to me but just make the adversary an interesting character. If the book was written a little differently then maybe I would have enjoyed it better but so far its been very lackluster to me but with beautiful art.
chrismarker
09-14-2005, 08:15 PM
Mallen doesnt have to be a super villian to be intersting to me but just make the adversary an interesting character. If the book was written a little differently then maybe I would have enjoyed it better but so far its been very lackluster to me but with beautiful art.
The writing's too good. The scenes with Sal in #2 are as good as any I've ever read in the medium. And the emergence of Mallen's racism makes him a fascinating adversary because it makes him so real and threatening. I mean, if you think about it, there are a lot of people who have his poisonous views and they just might take doses of extremis too if they could.
Anyway, Adi, could you answer a couple of questions? First, I'm wondering how you and Warren collaborate. Does he script out everything? Or do you interpret a lot of the narrative through your art? Also, what's the thesis of your style? Like I look at Gabriele's art and I see, not surprisingly, horror. But I can't name your style. There's an extreme realism in your work that gives it the feel of a film documentary, but I don't know the emotion inherent(?) to that style. Am I making sense?
Adi Granov
09-15-2005, 02:31 AM
Warren describes each panel in a few words, a lot less for talking panels where I get more out of the dialogue, and sometimes in a bit more detail if there is something specific. But I have a lot of freedom to figure out the best way to present whatever is going on. I try to choreograph whole sequences ahead of time so that I can then place whatever the script demands into the space without getting cornered.
I like to think of myself as a sci-fi artist. I always think of it in terms of Blade Runner where it's gritty and "realistic" but set the fictional.
chrismarker
09-15-2005, 07:01 AM
I like to think of myself as a sci-fi artist. I always think of it in terms of Blade Runner where it's gritty and "realistic" but set the fictional.
I don't want to sound like I'm over-reaching for meaning, but is there an underlying mood/emotion that informs your work? Like with Philip K. Dick, I think his land/city scapes were supposed to evoke a kind of alienation? Like he was saying that the promise of cities as sites of positive and unlimited human enterprise had failed? And instead because of unchecked technology, militarism, and capitalism (all the digital/electronic billboards, etc. in Blade Runner), cities were becoming ominous places that fragmented our identity and consciousness?
Anyway, the way you render Mallen's childhood in #3 is really some of the most powerful art in the arc to me. What's the effect of using only black and white colors here? BTW -- that last corner panel of Mallen as a child just sitting there after his parents have been slaughtered -- man, that's just masterful.
The writing's too good. The scenes with Sal in #2 are as good as any I've ever read in the medium. And the emergence of Mallen's racism makes him a fascinating adversary because it makes him so real and threatening. I mean, if you think about it, there are a lot of people who have his poisonous views and they just might take doses of extremis too if they could.
Anyway, Adi, could you answer a couple of questions? First, I'm wondering how you and Warren collaborate. Does he script out everything? Or do you interpret a lot of the narrative through your art? Also, what's the thesis of your style? Like I look at Gabriele's art and I see, not surprisingly, horror. But I can't name your style. There's an extreme realism in your work that gives it the feel of a film documentary, but I don't know the emotion inherent(?) to that style. Am I making sense?We disagree on the writting being too good for this arc.
chrismarker
09-15-2005, 02:24 PM
that's cool. I mean a lot of folks don't like explicitly political stuff, especially when racial politics are involved. I have to admit, I haven't got a clue as to why people wouldn't think Mallen is interesting because he doesn't wear spandex, or doesn't fit the traditional niche as a super villian. If anything, I think Mallen represents an important change in the super-hero comic book genre, a change I'd like to see with other charcaters.
that's cool. I mean a lot of folks don't like explicitly political stuff, especially when racial politics are involved. I have to admit, I haven't got a clue as to why people wouldn't think Mallen is interesting because he doesn't wear spandex, or doesn't fit the traditional niche as a super villian. If anything, I think Mallen represents an important change in the super-hero comic book genre, a change I'd like to see with other charcaters.For alot of us who dont really like the story,Its about the pacing of story. This really reads like the average written for trade type marvel knights story.
Hurry up and finish guys so we can get to the new writer just announced.
Daniel Knauf is one of the most creative storytellers of our time. I’m a huge fan of his work, especially his focus on dark themes and emphasis on good vs. evil,” said Joe Quesada, Editor-in-Chief of Marvel Comics. “Iron Man is a much-beloved Super Hero in the Marvel Universe, and I know that Knauf’s new exploration of this character will certainly not disappoint.”
“This arc will put Iron Man through the wringer,” says Knauf. “I really want to dial in with big, monumental fights and action sequences, while taking Tony to some very dark places - forcing him to face some hard truths as to what it really means to be a hero and that, sometimes, ‘meaning well’ is simply not enough."
Now this sounds exciting. :D
John Drake
09-27-2005, 04:40 PM
Not really..
I hope it's better than it sounds. Ellis will be missed.
chrismarker
09-27-2005, 07:40 PM
Not really..
I hope it's better than it sounds. Ellis will be missed.
I don't know how you go from Ellis to an emphasis on "big" fights" and heroic platitudes, "meaning well is not enough..."
Not really..
I hope it's better than it sounds. Ellis will be missed.Heres barely been on enough for me to miss his run. I think the next team will do a great job and hopefully put out a steady well done project.
chrismarker
09-30-2005, 10:07 PM
Adi -- are you at liberty to share a bit of Warren's views on Iron Man? I read some stuff about him that said he didn't like the super hero genre , but I'm wondering if this Iron Man run hasn't changed his mind a little. And obviously whether you both might do another run of Iron Man, which I'm sure would do well despite all the rather sorry complaints about the time delays of this arc.
Adi Granov
10-02-2005, 03:11 PM
Hmm, I really don't want to speak for Warren, although, if I remember correctly, I don't think he said he disliked the genre as a whole, but more the repetitious status quo within it.
I also don't know if he'd ever want to do another Iron Man story. From my perspective it seems that he doesn't really care to go back to stuff he's already done. Although there are a million stories that could be told about Iron Man, I can see how he might feel, from a writer's perspective, that he's told his vision of him and anything else might be just a variation... But that's just me speculating.
As for myself, I am sure I'll come back to IM sooner or later as I really like the character and the potential. IM for me is almost like a superhero version of a manga mech story. I would love to do a simple short story which would be one giant, city leveling, battle scene. Heh.
BenPixen
10-02-2005, 04:30 PM
I was wondering, is most of your work done on the computer?
chrismarker
10-02-2005, 04:52 PM
As for myself, I am sure I'll come back to IM sooner or later as I really like the character and the potential. IM for me is almost like a superhero version of a manga mech story. I would love to do a simple short story which would be one giant, city leveling, battle scene. Heh.
I cannot decipher your meaning here. Are you being sarcastic? --Sorry 'cause I have no idea what a "manga mech" story is and when I went on the net briefly to check it out what I discovered kind of left me very confused...
Adi Granov
10-02-2005, 06:10 PM
I was wondering, is most of your work done on the computer?
No, it's drawn and painted in grayscale in pencil, ink and watercolor on paper. It's colored and finished on the computer. About a quarter of what's on the page is digital.
Chris, not sarcastic at all. Japanese Mech stories are always about people in big power armors with loads of weapons and usually able to fly. They are always full of huge battles and lots of destruction. But some better stories are also always full of character development and drama. One of my favorite animated ones was the Big-O. It was an awesome concept about a city where everyone was made to forget the past but there were all these huge machines left from that forgotten past including giant Mechs. One of these mech armor/robots is piloted by a guy kinda in the vain of Bruce Wayne and Tony Stark. Really cool story.
So I think a well written and choreographed, full on action, 40-ish page story with Iron Man fighting some destructive threat would be grand.
No, it's drawn and painted in grayscale in pencil, ink and watercolor on paper. It's colored and finished on the computer. About a quarter of what's on the page is digital.
And believe me when I say the original is just stunning.
chrismarker
10-03-2005, 08:06 PM
And believe me when I say the original is just stunning.
The water color version must be really cool too -- I would love to see a water color Iron Man!
Adi -- so does the Manga style influence the art, or just the story? I can't quite picture Iron Man drawn in a Manga style, but, again, I don't really know about the style, so it might be really cool.
The thing I have hard time with though is how violence plays out in Manga. Violence in your style feels REALLY real. But I don't have a sense of how real it feels in Manga. BTW --The idea of an epic urban landscape battle with Iron Man is awesome!
Adi Granov
10-04-2005, 04:33 PM
Yeah, not the art style, but the story and the action. The super dynamic, over the top, battle action.
BenPixen
10-04-2005, 07:08 PM
You can see some of the pages here:
http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=93062&GSub=13472 (http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=93062&GSub=13472)
http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=93096&GSub=13472 (http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=93096&GSub=13472)
http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=93079&GSub=13472 (http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=93079&GSub=13472)
chrismarker
10-07-2005, 07:45 AM
Yeah, not the art style, but the story and the action. The super dynamic, over the top, battle action.
It'd be great to see your vision of that, because I'm sure even with all that action the violence would still feel powerfully real -- as opposed to being so over the top that it feels goofy.
I've not seen any of your BlackBolt art. I don't recall seeeing it on your website. Can you post something? I've always dug his character, but I've also felt like you're kind of boxed into a corner with him as a because he doesn't speak -- Kind of like what happened to the Hulk years back when they made him a mute character for a long series of issues. No?
nancyraygun
10-10-2005, 03:55 PM
Adi
I just have to say, even with all the controversy with the lateness of this title. I have LOVED this series with you and Warren and I think you personally are one class act.
NR
Adi
I just have to say, even with all the controversy with the lateness of this title. I have LOVED this series with you and Warren and I think you personally are one class act.
NR :lol:
chrismarker
10-17-2005, 08:09 AM
Hey Adi -- any teasers for IronMan#5? I know we we're shown a glimpse of the new Armor in # 4, but are there any surprises in the works? I'm really curious to see how Warren's going to handle a couple of things. One is Tony's transformation after being injected with Extremis: It seems Mallen's skin is a kind of organic armor that's impervious to most anything, so I'm wondering if something like that will happen to Tony and/or if this will set the stage for some new kind of relationship between Tony and the armor. The other thing is Sal -- are we going to get more of him? Thanks!
Jason Truong
10-17-2005, 09:07 AM
Not to sound like an ass or anything. Just an update on the shipping date for IM #5, from Newsarama. It's been pushed back from the November 2nd, 2005 release date to January 6th, 2006.
Shipping Changes as of 10.17.05 (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=46672)
Just an update, not me being pissed or anything. I'll wait for the book. It's that good!
Not to sound like an ass or anything. Just an update on the shipping date for IM #5, from Newsarama. It's been pushed back from the November 2nd, 2005 release date to January 6th, 2006.
Shipping Changes as of 10.17.05 (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=46672)
Just an update, not me being pissed or anything. I'll wait for the book. It's that good!Why not just stop and release it as a trade. This arc is never going to end. Damn shame because it was starting to get good.
Adi Granov
10-17-2005, 05:21 PM
I don't know any specifics about the shipping changes, however, and I absolutely only speculate, I imagine it's one of two reasons, either there will be an Iron Man release of some kind that will work into the story before #5, or it's simply being resolicited before we blow the release date to allow room to breathe, in which case the issue might come out before the date given. As I understand it, it's common practice to do that with books with screwed up schedules.
ds9, why don't you just stop reading it and buy it as a trade when it comes out? Easy as that. There are two other Iron Man books, plus all the Avengers stuff out there if you need an IM fix.
I don't know any specifics about the shipping changes, however, and I absolutely only speculate, I imagine it's one of two reasons, either there will be an Iron Man release of some kind that will work into the story before #5, or it's simply being resolicited before we blow the release date to allow room to breathe, in which case the issue might come out before the date given. As I understand it, it's common practice to do that with books with screwed up schedules.
ds9, why don't you just stop reading it and buy it as a trade when it comes out? Easy as that. There are two other Iron Man books, plus all the Avengers stuff out there if you need an IM fix.I already have the other issues so that is really expensive to go back and buy the trade. :cry:
Mack72
11-17-2005, 02:19 AM
Hey Adi, Congrats on Ironman, it looks amazing. I remember all your stuuf from the conceptdesignforum days! You come on leaps and bounds and produced some amazing work.
You really have to update your website! I want to see more of the new stuff! Also, I was thinking, I'd love to see how your process of working has changed, your new art is excellent.
Cheers for now, (I used to post as mack72 on that forum as well!)
Mack
www.artbamack.com (www.artbamack.com)
Adi Granov
11-19-2005, 03:23 PM
Hey Mack! Been a long time. Thanks very much on the kind words.
I have a designer working on my new site but I've been terrible at getting her all the stuff for it... soon.
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