I Don't Agree With Alimony.

[WAKKAJAWAKKA]

There Was A Lawyer On Stern Today Talking About All Kinds If Divorce Stuff, And It Got Me Thinking About It All. Why Do Women Get Favord So Much? I've Only See The Guy Get Off Ok One Time, But By Ok I Mean Not Completly Shafted. How Is It That, Even In One Of Thos Situations Where A Couple Just Split Up, No Cheating Or Anything Like That, The Woman Gets The House, Kids, And Alimony? Plus The Alimony Paid Is Based Of What The Guy Made During The Marriage, So If He Get's Laid Off, Or Is In A Situation Where He Is Making Less Money, He Still Has To Pay Based On What He Used To Make. Why Can't A Couple Split, And They Both Get A Job? How Can Something Like Alimony Even Exist, And Why Don't Women Pay It To Men? How Does This Kinda Stuff Go On, The Systematic Breaking Of Some Guy Cause The Marriage Didn't Work Out? I Can't Figure It Out.

Wayno.

[Brewtown Andy]

There are more and more stay at home dads everyday, so it's only a matter of time before a dad starts getting alimony.

[WAKKAJAWAKKA]

There are more and more stay at home dads everyday, so it's only a matter of time before a dad starts getting alimony.

Why Does Anyone Get It Though?

Wayno.

[Brewtown Andy]

Why Does Anyone Get It Though?

Wayno.I have no good answer.

[Mr. E!]

Alimony serves two purposes:
1) when the practice was established, most women did not have careers outside the home, and so had no means of financial support for themselves and their children. It was established to make sure the wife and children had enough money to live at a fairly decent standard.
2) If you think about it, it is a great incentive for couples to stay together.
Also, division of marital assets is not the same thing as alimony.

[WAKKAJAWAKKA]

Alimony serves two purposes:
1) when the practice was established, most women did not have careers outside the home, and so had no means of financial support for themselves and their children. It was established to make sure the wife and children had enough money to live at a fairly decent standard.
2) If you think about it, it is a great incentive for couples to stay together.
Also, division of marital assets is not the same thing as alimony.

Incentive To Stay Together? That's Horrable. Thats Like A Threat. "Better Stay In Your Shitty Relationship Or You'll Pay Out Your Ass For It The Rest Of Your Life". Women Getting Jobs Isn't An Issue Anymore. There Is No Reason For Alimony.

Wayno.

[Taxman]

In my experience, most divorces result in bankruptcy as well. It is a good idea not to get married unless you plan to stay that way. These new bankruptcy laws are brutal too.

[greg donovan]

doesnt alimoney end when the ex-spouse gets remairied?

and i agree that alimony may be unneccesary but i elieve that child support is important. they may be divirced but they are still his/her children.

[greg donovan]

In my experience, most divorces result in bankruptcy as well. It is a good idea not to get married unless you plan to stay that way. These new bankruptcy laws are brutal too.


exactly, too many people get married who shouldnt.

[WAKKAJAWAKKA]

doesnt alimoney end when the ex-spouse gets remairied?

and i agree that alimony may be unneccesary but i elieve that child support is important. they may be divirced but they are still his/her children.

Child Support Is Something Else. I Agree With Child Support, But There Are Flaws There Too. That Also Is Decided On How Much The Guy Used To Make. But Now He's Gotta Pay For His New Place To Live, Plus Alimony, Plus Child Support. And If You Can't Pay All That, You Can Get Sent To Jail. What A Fair System.

Wayno.

[dEnny!]

Why Does Anyone Get It Though?

Wayno.

In the past when most women stayed at home and the husband provided the financial aspect of the household it would be VERY difficult for a woman who hasn't worked in years, decades to all of a sudden get a job that pays enough to support the kids. Just because you divorce doesn't mean you can walk away from your responsibility and that is to support the family you created. I think when both spouses work though you probably won't see alimony, just child support. If the wife gets the kids they usually get the house so as to provide some consistency in their lives (lose their father and their home???).

[badpoet]

It's an anachronism.

badpoet

Yes, I used anachronism in a post and I spelled it right even...

[WAKKAJAWAKKA]

In the past when most women stayed at home and the husband provided the financial aspect of the household it would be VERY difficult for a woman who hasn't worked in years, decades to all of a sudden get a job that pays enough to support the kids. Just because you divorce doesn't mean you can walk away from your responsibility and that is to support the family you created. I think when both spouses work though you probably won't see alimony, just child support. If the wife gets the kids they usually get the house so as to provide some consistency in their lives (lose their father and their home???).

It's Not Hard For Women Now Though, And They Don't Gotta Go Head A Company. Get A Job At Walmart, Or Best Buy, Or A Temp Agency, It's Not Hard.

Alimony Is Not Paying For Kids, Child Support Is. So Not Paying Alimony Wouldn't Be "Walking Away From Responsibility".

Alimony Is Still Paid In A Double Income Home.

Hey, It Sucks For Kids During A Divorce, But Keeping The House For Consistency, While Thier Dad Has To Find Some Way To Survive Because 95% Of His Income Goes To The Wife, Kids And Payments On His Old House And New Place To Live?

The Whole Process Is Bullshit.

Wayno.

[Mr. E!]

Incentive To Stay Together? That's Horrable. Thats Like A Threat. "Better Stay In Your Shitty Relationship Or You'll Pay Out Your Ass For It The Rest Of Your Life". Women Getting Jobs Isn't An Issue Anymore. There Is No Reason For Alimony.

Wayno.I never said it was a good thing, but it is society's built-in punishment for people who don't stay together (and you can read that as punishing the man for wanting sex with another woman if you want to...). Haven't you been paying attention to all the "marriage as a sacred institution" nonsense over the last year?
Why do you think we have marriage in the first place? To stabilize society and control reproduction. No sex before marriage? That's an idea that can be tied into religious dogma, which is all about threatening people with dire consequences (i.e. burning in fiery torment for all eternity for not loving God back enough) for failing to do what the church wants you to do.
To give you some perspective, divorce was not all that common until about 50 years ago, and there was a huge stigma attached to it until about 25 years ago. Up until 25 years ago, families could live pretty well on a single income. Women in the workplace, especially in positions of actual authority in the corporate arena, were not that common until the last 20 years or so. And women in comparable positions still make a good chunk less than men. The law just needs the time to catch up to society.

[Mr. E!]

It's Not Hard For Women Now Though, And They Don't Gotta Go Head A Company. Get A Job At Walmart, Or Best Buy, Or A Temp Agency, It's Not Hard.

Alimony Is Not Paying For Kids, Child Support Is. So Not Paying Alimony Wouldn't Be "Walking Away From Responsibility".

Alimony Is Still Paid In A Double Income Home.

Hey, It Sucks For Kids During A Divorce, But Keeping The House For Consistency, While Thier Dad Has To Find Some Way To Survive Because 95% Of His Income Goes To The Wife, Kids And Payments On His Old House And New Place To Live?

The Whole Process Is Bullshit.

Wayno.

Oh god...YOU try paying a mortgage on what you make at Wal-Mart. (Read Nickel and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich to see how absurd your porposition really is) Got kids? Try paying for child care for your kids after school because you've got to work two jobs to make ends meet.
Anyway, alimony isn't supposed to be a life long proposition. Most of it is over within two years, and if it isn't, the man can usually get the payments reduced. It's just there so the wife can find her financial footing and establish some credit in her own name.
And anyway, if you don't like the idea, don't get married in the first place. That would solve the problem (for you) altogether.

[WAKKAJAWAKKA]

I never said it was a good thing, but it is society's built-in punishment for people who don't stay together (and you can read that as punishing the man for wanting sex with another woman if you want to...). Haven't you been paying attention to all the "marriage as a sacred institution" nonsense over the last year?
Why do you think we have marriage in the first place? To stabilize society and control reproduction. No sex before marriage? That's an idea that can be tied into religious dogma, which is all about threatening people with dire consequences (i.e. burning in fiery torment for all eternity for not loving God back enough) for failing to do what the church wants you to do.
To give you some perspective, divorce was not all that common until about 50 years ago, and there was a huge stigma attached to it until about 25 years ago. Up until 25 years ago, families could live pretty well on a single income. Women in the workplace, especially in positions of actual authority in the corporate arena, were not that common until the last 20 years or so. And women in comparable positions still make a good chunk less than men. The law just needs the time to catch up to society.

You Don't Have To Inform Me On Any Of That. I'm Well Aware Of Everything You Said. What I'm Asking Is, Why Is It Still In Place? Why, In A Relationship That Doesn't Work, Not One Where The Guy Or Girl Cheats, Is The Guy Still Paying. What Responsibility Does The Husband Have To The Wife After They Are Divorced? Even If One Of The Two Does Cheat, Why Does Someone Gotta Pay Someone Else For That? Yeah, It's A Fuck Up, But Why Not Pay For Having An Argument Or Telling A Lie While Married? It's The Same Thing. Trust Betrayed And Feelings Hurt.

It Is Not Needed At This Time.

Wayno.

[WAKKAJAWAKKA]

Oh god...YOU try paying a mortgage on what you make at Wal-Mart. (Read Nickel and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich to see how absurd your porposition really is) Got kids? Try paying for child care for your kids after school because you've got to work two jobs to make ends meet.
Anyway, alimony isn't supposed to be a life long proposition. Most of it is over within two years, and if it isn't, the man can usually get the payments reduced. It's just there so the wife can find her financial footing and establish some credit in her own name.
And anyway, if you don't like the idea, don't get married in the first place. That would solve the problem (for you) altogether.

I Have Lived Life In Finacial Dreggs Since Forever, I Know That Life In And Out. So I Do Know What It's Like To Make Ends Meet. And Alimony Isn't For Kids, Child Support Is. If You Get A Job You Can Make Ends Meet Wit Child Support. It Won't Be A Grand Like Of Steak Dinners In Your Huge House, But It's Adequate. It Can Be Done, It Has Been Done, I've Seen It On 9 Seperate Occasions Be Pulled Off. Alimony Has No Place In This Day.

Wayno.

[Mr. E!]

You Don't Have To Inform Me On Any Of That. I'm Well Aware Of Everything You Said. What I'm Asking Is, Why Is It Still In Place? Why, In A Relationship That Doesn't Work, Not One Where The Guy Or Girl Cheats, Is The Guy Still Paying. What Responsibility Does The Husband Have To The Wife After They Are Divorced? Even If One Of The Two Does Cheat, Why Does Someone Gotta Pay Someone Else For That? Yeah, It's A Fuck Up, But Why Not Pay For Having An Argument Or Telling A Lie While Married? It's The Same Thing. Trust Betrayed And Feelings Hurt.

It Is Not Needed At This Time.

Wayno.
Well, You Asked, And I Answered. The Law Takes A While To Catch Up To Society. If You Want To Change It, You Need To Agitate For Change. Start A Lobbying Group, Go Rent Some Politicians, And Plead Your Case. Until People Start Speaking Out, It Will Not Change.

[Jason_BANNED]

Wayno,
I totally agree with you, but the answer lies in the fact that when it comes to certain areas this country just refuses to change from the out-dated ways of the past.

Look at the IRS. It's a total fucking scam and no longer needed, but I doubt it'll be dissolved in our lifetimes. You pay the government for the right to earn money. Where does that money go? To pay the salaries of government employees whose jobs it is to make sure you pay those taxes.

Ridiculous. Just like alimony, but it's "traditional" so it's not subject to change.

Jason

[Mr. E!]

Wayno,

Look at the IRS. It's a total fucking scam and no longer needed, but I doubt it'll be dissolved in our lifetimes. You pay the government for the right to earn money. Where does that money go? To pay the salaries of government employees whose jobs it is to make sure you pay those taxes.

Jason
Oh yeah. I hate getting taxed for schools, roads, national security, the intelligence infrastructure, medial care for the elderly, frivolous things like that. How dare they make us pay for any of that! Bastards!

[Jason_BANNED]

Oh yeah. I hate getting taxed for schools, roads, national security, the intelligence infrastructure, medial care for the elderly, frivolous things like that. How dare they make us pay for any of that! Bastards!


Really funny. Next time try actually reading what I fucking wrote.

I never complained about taxes in general. I complained about INCOME taxes in relation to the existance of the IRS.

If not for bloated, wasteful government agencies like the IRS, then maybe our tax dollars would actually be spent on programs of substance (like education, roads, etc.).

Jason

[Mr. E!]

Really funny. Next time try actually reading what I fucking wrote.

I never complained about taxes in general. I complained about INCOME taxes in relation to the existance of the IRS.

If not for bloated, wasteful government agencies like the IRS, then maybe our tax dollars would actually be spent on programs of substance (like education, roads, etc.).

Jason
Touchy. Relax man. Just keep telling yourself: "It's only a message board, it's only a message board."

Yes, the IRS is bloated. So are all bureaucratic agencies And yes, they need to be streamlined. So I agree with you. The big question is: How?

Oh, and in answer to the whole alimony thing, and I can't believe any of us didn't bring it up before: Pre-Nup! Get a prenuptial agreement before you get married. You keep your assets, she keeps hers, and you can specify no alimony in it. Give it to her right after the engagement ring.

[WAKKAJAWAKKA]

And anyway, if you don't like the idea, don't get married in the first place. That would solve the problem (for you) altogether.

Ah, Ignoring Issues And Staying Away From Them, That's The Best Way Make Society Better.

Wayno.

[Jason_BANNED]

Touchy. Relax man. Just keep telling yourself: "It's only a message board, it's only a message board."

Yes, the IRS is bloated. So are all bureaucratic agencies And yes, they need to be streamlined. So I agree with you. The big question is: How?

Oh, and in answer to the whole alimony thing, and I can't believe any of us didn't bring it up before: Pre-Nup! Get a prenuptial agreement before you get married. You keep your assets, she keeps hers, and you can specify no alimony in it. Give it to her right after the engagement ring.

Not touchy, but in your first reply your completely ignored what I was trying to say and mocked it by going off on a tangent.

My wife is a teacher. I live in a state that has some of the worst roads ever.
I'm an honorably discharged veteran.

In other words, I totally understand and agree with money going to worthwhile institutions like education, roads, national security, etc. I just didn't appreciate having my post pissed upon when I was trying to make a valid point.

There are too many "traditional" instituation and mindsets (whether it's alimony, the IRS, the fear of homosexuality, or whatever) that need to be changed. I understand that the nature of the beast is that they won't change easily and without any pushing from the public. I was just giving another example of one of those outdated mindsets / institutions.

Jason

[Mr. E!]

Ah, Ignoring Issues And Staying Away From Them, That's The Best Way Make Society Better.

Wayno.
Or, you could keep reading to the part where I said:

Well, You Asked, And I Answered. The Law Takes A While To Catch Up To Society. If You Want To Change It, You Need To Agitate For Change. Start A Lobbying Group, Go Rent Some Politicians, And Plead Your Case. Until People Start Speaking Out, It Will Not Change.

Or the time I said:

Oh, and in answer to the whole alimony thing, and I can't believe any of us didn't bring it up before: Pre-Nup! Get a prenuptial agreement before you get married. You keep your assets, she keeps hers, and you can specify no alimony in it. Give it to her right after the engagement ring.

Just sayin'....

[Frozen Sooner]

For what it's worth, men can receive alimony as well.

Since it doesn't look like anyone actually hit on it:

Alimony is meant to compensate one divorcee for time spent building marital assets. F'rexample, a couple gets married. The husband drops out of college to help support his wife through medical school. They stay married for 15 years, while the wife becomes chief of neurosurgery at Johns Hopkins. Since he's a college dropout, the best job he can find pays about $35k per year while she's pulling down about $250k per year. Due to irreconcilable differences, they split up. Since he sacrificed part of his future earnings potential, it is only fair that he be compensated for that.

Also, alimony is not mean to be a disincentive to divorce. It's meant to keep people from staying in a bad marriage because they can't afford to leave. Big difference.

[Mr. E!]

Not touchy, but in your first reply your completely ignored what I was trying to say and mocked it by going off on a tangent.

My wife is a teacher. I live in a state that has some of the worst roads ever.
I'm an honorably discharged veteran.

In other words, I totally understand and agree with money going to worthwhile institutions like education, roads, national security, etc. I just didn't appreciate having my post pissed upon when I was trying to make a valid point.

There are too many "traditional" instituation and mindsets (whether it's alimony, the IRS, the fear of homosexuality, or whatever) that need to be changed. I understand that the nature of the beast is that they won't change easily and without any pushing from the public. I was just giving another example of one of those outdated mindsets / institutions.

Jason

Jason,
I'm sorry if I misread your original post. My misreading is where the tangent post came from. I used to listen to talk radio (my secret shame), and I can't tell you the number of times that I've heard people going off about the IRS. They all seemed to be attacking the concept of taxation in general, rather than doing what you were doing, which was actually criticizing the bloated nature of the IRS, without negating the need for taxation in general. So I had a knee jerk reaction to what you posted. So, my bad.
It does sound like we are on the same page with this. I agree that there are many traditional mindsets that need to be changed. Which brings us back to the question of how to do it.

[WAKKAJAWAKKA]

Or, you could keep reading to the part where I said:


Or the time I said:


Just sayin'....

Yeah, You Said All That Alright, Then Suggested That I Just Don't Get Married, Then It Won't Be A Problem.

Wayno.

[Mr. E!]

Also, with the whole alimony thing, couples do not need to go to court or get divorce lawyers. Lots of couples go through mediation, and avoid the idea of alimony altogether.

[Mr. E!]

Yeah, You Said All That Alright, Then Suggested That I Just Don't Get Married, Then It Won't Be A Problem.

Wayno.

Nope. Go back through the thread. I sugested that you not get married first, and THEN suggested the other two. And I also came up with a third option: mediation.
So, to review the ways to avoid alimony:
1) Don't get marired
2) Agitate to change the system
3) Get a pre nup
4) Get binding mediation rather than going to court

[Jason_BANNED]

Jason,
I'm sorry if I misread your original post. My misreading is where the tangent post came from. I used to listen to talk radio (my secret shame), and I can't tell you the number of times that I've heard people going off about the IRS. They all seemed to be attacking the concept of taxation in general, rather than doing what you were doing, which was actually criticizing the bloated nature of the IRS, without negating the need for taxation in general. So I had a knee jerk reaction to what you posted. So, my bad.
It does sound like we are on the same page with this. I agree that there are many traditional mindsets that need to be changed. Which brings us back to the question of how to do it.

Understood and it's all good.

I'm not upset with you. Like I said, I just felt like I said something relevant and it got ignored and pissed all over. Understand it was a misunderstanding.

As for how to change it. Somebody (I think you) mentioned lobbying, raising awareness, calling Representatives, etc. earlier.

That's really the only way I can imagine it changing.

Jason

[WAKKAJAWAKKA]

Nope. Go back through the thread. I sugested that you not get married first, and THEN suggested the other two. And I also came up with a third option: mediation.
So, to review the ways to avoid alimony:
1) Don't get marired
2) Agitate to change the system
3) Get a pre nup
4) Get binding mediation rather than going to court

We Aren't Trying To Solve It For Me. Some Of Those Ideas Might Work. I've Seen Pre-nups Break Up 5 Couples. How Are You Gonna Ask The Person You Love, And Are About To Pledge Your Life To, To Sign A Deal That Says When Or If It Breaks Bad, You Get To Keep Your Shit? Would You Think About Asking Someone That If You Were In Love And About To Be Married? I Know It Solves That Problem, But I Don't Think It Counts For A Viable Option. If Unfair Alimony Didn't Exist, You Wouldn't Need One Anyway.

Wayno.

[Mr. E!]

We Aren't Trying To Solve It For Me. Some Of Those Ideas Might Work. I've Seen Pre-nups Break Up 5 Couples. How Are You Gonna Ask The Person You Love, And Are About To Pledge Your Life To, To Sign A Deal That Says When Or If It Breaks Bad, You Get To Keep Your Shit? Would You Think About Asking Someone That If You Were In Love And About To Be Married? I Know It Solves That Problem, But I Don't Think It Counts For A Viable Option. If Unfair Alimony Didn't Exist, You Wouldn't Need One Anyway.

Wayno.
I stopped making this about you a while back (no offense). I'm looking at the issue from a larger perspective now. Everyone goes into marriage thinking it's going to last forever, otherwise, what's the point, right? But the divorce rates are 50%, and have been for years. I would think that a mature couple, one that looks at things realistically, would talk about certain things before marriage: do we want kids? are both of us still going to work? how are we going to combine our finances? and do we need a pre-nup? I talked about all of these things with my wife before we got married. We decided against a pre-nup simply because we both have the same job, we both make the same amount of money, and neither one of us has many assets outside of what we make as teachers. There was no need for one. If Christy (my wife) had a trust fund, on an inherence from a relative before we got married, I would have insisted on a pre-nup for her protection. Is it romantic? Not a bit. But marriage isn’t always about romance, and people need to look at some tough realities before they commit to another person. If the couple can’t withstand even talking about a pre-nup, then it’s probably a good thing they never got married.

[WAKKAJAWAKKA]

I stopped making this about you a while back (no offense). I'm looking at the issue from a larger perspective now. Everyone goes into marriage thinking it's going to last forever, otherwise, what's the point, right? But the divorce rates are 50%, and have been for years. I would think that a mature couple, one that looks at things realistically, would talk about certain things before marriage: do we want kids? are both of us still going to work? how are we going to combine our finances? and do we need a pre-nup? I talked about all of these things with my wife before we got married. We decided against a pre-nup simply because we both have the same job, we both make the same amount of money, and neither one of us has many assets outside of what we make as teachers. There was no need for one. If Christy (my wife) had a trust fund, on an inherence from a relative before we got married, I would have insisted on a pre-nup for her protection. Is it romantic? Not a bit. But marriage isn’t always about romance, and people need to look at some tough realities before they commit to another person. If the couple can’t withstand even talking about a pre-nup, then it’s probably a good thing they never got married.

Well If People Were Mature, 80-90% Of Those Divorces Probobly Wouldn't Happen. But The Sad Truth Is That Prople Aren't Mature Or Tough Anymore. Anything Can Be Dealt With, So Useing A Pre-nup As A Fallback Isn't Nessesary. Shit, You Could Work It Out In Court To Where You Split It 50/50, And Decide A Fair Amount Of Child Support. But Since People Aren't Mature, They Get Angry And Do Shit Out Of Spite. If This Kinda Stuff Disapeard, It Would Have Such A Posative Affect On Society. Everyone Would Actually Have To Be Responsible Adults, And Deal Head On With Shit. Not Rely On Living Off Someones Money Cause You Got In An Argument Over Dish Towels.

Wayno.

[Mr. E!]

Well If People Were Mature, 80-90% Of Those Divorces Probobly Wouldn't Happen. But The Sad Truth Is That Prople Aren't Mature Or Tough Anymore. Anything Can Be Dealt With, So Useing A Pre-nup As A Fallback Isn't Nessesary. Shit, You Could Work It Out In Court To Where You Split It 50/50, And Decide A Fair Amount Of Child Support. But Since People Aren't Mature, They Get Angry And Do Shit Out Of Spite. If This Kinda Stuff Disapeard, It Would Have Such A Posative Affect On Society. Everyone Would Actually Have To Be Responsible Adults, And Deal Head On With Shit. Not Rely On Living Off Someones Money Cause You Got In An Argument Over Dish Towels.

Wayno.

True enough.

[Gunter]

I know of one occasion where a woman has had to pay child support. I worked with a woman who had two daughters. They both decided to live with their dad because they didn't approve of their mom's lifestyle. So once he got custody he took the mother to court for child support. She was furious about that.

I told her they're her kids, if she had custody she would expect child support, just because her ex made almost twice her salary didn't excuse her from her responsibilities.

She never talked to me again.

[WAKKAJAWAKKA]

I know of one occasion where a woman has had to pay child support. I worked with a woman who had two daughters. They both decided to live with their dad because they didn't approve of their mom's lifestyle. So once he got custody he took the mother to court for child support. She was furious about that.

I told her they're her kids, if she had custody she would expect child support, just because her ex made almost twice her salary didn't excuse her from her responsibilities.

She never talked to me again.

I Hope You Learned Your Lesson.

Wayno.

[Mr. E!]

Originally Posted by Gunter
I know of one occasion where a woman has had to pay child support. I worked with a woman who had two daughters. They both decided to live with their dad because they didn't approve of their mom's lifestyle. So once he got custody he took the mother to court for child support. She was furious about that.

I told her they're her kids, if she had custody she would expect child support, just because her ex made almost twice her salary didn't excuse her from her responsibilities.

She never talked to me again.

I Hope You Learned Your Lesson.

Wayno.
Careful guys...you don't want to stray into Dave Sim territory
;)
Gunter is absolutely right. It should swing both ways.

[WAKKAJAWAKKA]

Careful guys...you don't want to stray into Dave Sim territory
;)
Gunter is absolutely right. It should swing both ways.

I Was Just Jokin There.

Wayno.