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Patrick Gerard
04-17-2012, 07:38 PM
So, buzz about a Superman vs. Batman vs. Wonder Woman crossover.

My prediction: Batman accidentally kills a guy. Doesn't express remorse.

Clark, Barry, and Vic call shenanigans.

Diana, Hal, and Arthur (all confirmed killers now, post-Flashpoint; not just extreme cases but all supposedly fine with routinely killing bad guys) think it's time to start executing bad guys.

Bruce is publicly all, "It sucks but whatcha gonna do? It's done." Privately, he's haunted by it.

You can't have a team made up 50% of people who define villain as "takes human life" and 50% made up of people who define villain as "target for me to kill."

My big thing is, if heroes kill bad people, how exactly are Mr. Freeze, Cheetah, Toyman, and The Riddler not Justice League material? A lot of villains only kill or endanger bad people and do so with varying degrees of reluctance. There are a ton of villains who are solely considered villains because they kill bad people.

Slewo.O
04-17-2012, 07:42 PM
The Trench and Sinestro Corps don't count as extreme cases? That's a bit of a stretch...

Patrick Gerard
04-17-2012, 07:50 PM
The Trench and Sinestro Corps don't count as extreme cases? That's a bit of a stretch...

I'm going with Geoff Johns' statements.

They see a bad guy, they shoot to kill.

Slewo.O
04-17-2012, 07:52 PM
I'm going with Geoff Johns' statements.

They see a bad guy, they shoot to kill.

I seem to remember him saying Hal will do it if he has to. And really, Hal's military it's not like it's a far stretch in his case.

As for Arthur, the Trench were monsters from the deep, and they were eating people. Extreme enough for me.

As for Diana... Eh. So far we've only seen her kill robot Parademons and centaurs.

Patrick Gerard
04-17-2012, 07:53 PM
I guess. It's distinct from Darwyn Cooke's "pilot who only ever killed one person, in self defense, and had a breakdown over it."

Slewo.O
04-17-2012, 07:55 PM
I guess. It's distinct from Darwyn Cooke's "pilot who only ever killed one person, in self defense, and had a breakdown over it."

I know military men aren't robots, but Hal's probably not gonna stay in the Air Force if he has breakdowns over killing people.

Patrick Gerard
04-17-2012, 07:57 PM
I know military men aren't robots, but Hal's probably not gonna stay in the Air Force if he has breakdowns over killing people.

He didn't in New Frontier. He made it through a whole war without taking a life and then ended up killing one guy in self-defense who didn't know that the war was over... and had to go into therapy over it.

Slewo.O
04-17-2012, 08:06 PM
He didn't in New Frontier. He made it through a whole war without taking a life and then ended up killing one guy in self-defense who didn't know that the war was over... and had to go into therapy over it.

I haven't read New Frontier. It doesn't sound entirely realistic you'd stay in the military if you were adamant about not taking someone's life, though. Although I think it would be nice to have more made of the fact Hal is willing to kill. After all it was a pretty big deal about how John and Hal wouldn't be cool with Guy, if he had to kill back in Sinestro Corps War.

Ray G.
04-17-2012, 08:12 PM
It's an interesting concept. I think Bruce's anti-killing rule is more hard and fast than any other hero in the DCU's, though, so I don't see it being him.

Slewo.O
04-17-2012, 08:14 PM
It's an interesting concept. I think Bruce's anti-killing rule is more hard and fast than any other hero in the DCU's, though, so I don't see it being him.

Which is funny considering how gleefully he'd kill people in the old days. :p

Ray G.
04-17-2012, 08:18 PM
Which is funny considering how gleefully he'd kill people in the old days. :p

Ah, yes. When Batman shot people and Superman beat up whole towns over traffic laws.

Wonder Woman just got tied up lots. :)

Slewo.O
04-17-2012, 08:19 PM
Ah, yes. When Batman shot people and Superman beat up whole towns over traffic laws.

Wonder Woman just got tied up lots. :)

Yeah? Well remember that time Batman tied up a guy by the neck with the batrope, and hanged him from the bat mobile/batgyro? :p

JBK405
04-17-2012, 08:20 PM
I haven't read New Frontier. It doesn't sound entirely realistic you'd stay in the military if you were adamant about not taking someone's life, though. Although I think it would be nice to have more made of the fact Hal is willing to kill. After all it was a pretty big deal about how John and Hal wouldn't be cool with Guy, if he had to kill back in Sinestro Corps War.

Off-topic, but I'd heavily recommend it (And also the film they made. It's one of the best DC adaptations out there). The point of Hal's story is that, when it comes right down to it, he didn't care enough about America's involvement in Korea to feel that it was worth killing somebody over. What he did care enough about to kill for was survival, so when he got into a situation where he couldn't sneak out of it he pulled the trigger. He wound up in a psychiatric hospital becuase, in the cruelest twist of fate, it wasn't even necessary, since the cease-fire had been signed and the solider he killed simply hadn't gotten the message, and Hal could not remember the Korean words for "War Over."

Slewo.O
04-17-2012, 08:27 PM
Off-topic, but I'd heavily recommend it (And also the film they made. It's one of the best DC adaptations out there). The point of Hal's story is that, when it comes right down to it, he didn't care enough about America's involvement in Korea to feel that it was worth killing somebody over. What he did care enough about to kill for was survival, so when he got into a situation where he couldn't sneak out of it he pulled the trigger. He wound up in a psychiatric hospital becuase, in the cruelest twist of fate, it wasn't even necessary, since the cease-fire had been signed and the solider he killed simply hadn't gotten the message, and Hal could not remember the Korean words for "War Over."

Ok, that context definitely changes it. And yeah I do plan on getting NF sometime. I just think the situations between mainstream Hal and Cooke's version are different though. Not good or bad IMO.

C.B. Nerdlinger
04-18-2012, 12:48 AM
Do we even know this is about Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman?

I read a theory it might actually be referring to Pandora, The Phantom Stranger and The Spectre.

Thequeerjock
04-18-2012, 01:55 AM
If it's about the actual DCU trinity then it kind of stinks of trying to cash-in on the whole Avengers vs. X-Men thing....a year later. And to be honest I got tired of the Trinity being at each other's throats back during Infinite Crisis. So unless this could be done in a really unique way, I'm kinda meh on the idea.

Kevin T Brown
04-18-2012, 03:52 AM
Do we even know this is about Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman?

I read a theory it might actually be referring to Pandora, The Phantom Stranger and The Spectre.

I was thinking Father, Son, and Holy Ghost...

vanityman
04-18-2012, 04:28 AM
there's obvious analogies of wonder woman, batman, superman relating to pandora, the phantom stranger and the spectre...someone else mentioned on another thread that perhaps it involves earth 2... or even an aftereffect of flashpoint: "While traveling through time, Barry realizes he can see three different timelines — DC, Vertigo, and Wildstorm. A mysterious hooded figure, later identified as "Pandora", tells him that the world was split into three to weaken them for an impending threat, and must now be reunited to combat it."

Kwaku
04-18-2012, 05:54 AM
If it's about the actual DCU trinity then it kind of stinks of trying to cash-in on the whole Avengers vs. X-Men thing....a year later. And to be honest I got tired of the Trinity being at each other's throats back during Infinite Crisis. So unless this could be done in a really unique way, I'm kinda meh on the idea.

AvX is really just the lastest example. Every big Marvel event since Avengers Disassembled has had heroes fighting heroes. Also, the Trinity weren't at each other's throats during Infinite Crisis. They said a couple of mean things to each other.

FanboyStranger
04-18-2012, 07:11 AM
I'm betting it's going to be similar to Alan Moore's Twilight of the Superheroes proposal.

Tyr
04-18-2012, 07:36 AM
Me not want!

Dreg
04-18-2012, 07:48 AM
A lot of heroes kill bad people. Policemen, soldiers, and federal agents kill bad people. You can't have Superman give his pandering speech of "these are the true heroes" while at the same time disqualifying every person who kills another in defense of others or themselves from being a hero.

RobStaeger
04-18-2012, 08:00 AM
I like to know at least four words worth of information on a project before passing judgement on it, and so far we have only three: "The Trinity War."

WHY THE SECRECY, DC? WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO HIDE???

Gaelforce
04-18-2012, 08:21 AM
All I know (in my heart as opposed to 'with certainty') is that if this *is* a Superman/Batman/Wonder Woman event, WW will come out on the short end of the whole mess looking stupid and weak.

Pretty much par for the course for Diana in big events, and given the silly 'let's go punch something' manner in which she's being written, I don't expect a Nu52 improvement.

Thequeerjock
04-18-2012, 10:07 AM
Looks like someone called it, and it's about an "evil" Trinity. It also looks like this is where they're reintroducing Ryan Choi.
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/04/18/more-on-dc-comics-trinity-war-semi-spoilers-and-jim-lees-fcbd-gate-fold/

Lester C.
04-18-2012, 10:13 AM
A lot of heroes kill bad people. Policemen, soldiers, and federal agents kill bad people. You can't have Superman give his pandering speech of "these are the true heroes" while at the same time disqualifying every person who kills another in defense of others or themselves from being a hero.

Superman has given that speech before. The whole point of it is that ordinary people rock because they do Superman's job without his power set. However since Superman is Superman he can do that job without killing.

Infra-Man
04-18-2012, 10:15 AM
I'm betting it's going to be similar to Alan Moore's Twilight of the Superheroes proposal.

Ditto. They used Moore stuff for the previous big Green Lantern events, they're doing Before Watmen this summer, they'll probably mine his work again for this event.

EDIT:

Looks like someone called it, and it's about an "evil" Trinity. It also looks like this is where they're reintroducing Ryan Choi.
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/04/18/more-on-dc-comics-trinity-war-semi-spoilers-and-jim-lees-fcbd-gate-fold/


Whoop... well, I'm wrong.

Shurato2099
04-18-2012, 10:16 AM
I was thinking Father, Son, and Holy Ghost...

I was hoping for lace, leather and latex but I'm an old perv anyway ...

RobStaeger
04-18-2012, 11:44 AM
Onions, celery and bell peppers are my favorite trinity. Get that jambalaya cookin'!

Patrick Gerard
04-18-2012, 01:03 PM
Do we even know this is about Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman?

I read a theory it might actually be referring to Pandora, The Phantom Stranger and The Spectre.

Or the three universes that got merged.

But it will probably be Pandora v. Stranger v. Spectre, Wildstorm v. DC v. Vertigo, AND Wonder Woman v. Superman v. Batman. With battle lines drawn that way and starting over a simple moral argument between its three big heroes that never actually gets resolved because the story goes cosmic and forgets its moral debate.

The formula for DC since Identity Crisis has been to start with a moral/personal debate at the core and then have everything blur into a fightfight interspersed with psychological thriller elements and gore, cosmic elements optional.

Identity Crisis, Amazons Attack, Infinite Crisis, Final Crisis went that route in its own way, and Flashpoint did as well.

Dreg
04-18-2012, 01:18 PM
Superman has given that speech before. The whole point of it is that ordinary people rock because they do Superman's job without his power set. However since Superman is Superman he can do that job without killing.

Batman isn't Superman, though, nor is anybody else on the face of the planet, so doesn't it kind of make the most indestructible person on the planet look bad for getting all huffy at them? Theoretically, it's possible for a normal human being to avoid killing a person as much as it is for Batman.

Morrison_Lad
04-18-2012, 01:33 PM
I'm not sure I necessarily believe everything in that "spoiler," but I will be fascinated to see who the other two are with Pandora, if it is indeed the case. Clearly, we were led to believe that the Trinity of Sin was made up of Pandora, Phantom Stranger, and one would think Vandal Savage. If that "spoiler" report is true, however, the last two are definitely not part of it (which is weird, given that Phantom Stranger pretty much confirmed he *was* one of the three).

I guess I'll just have to wait and see. It's nice to Element Woman on that gatefold cover, though. I've been waiting and waiting for her re-appearance.

Lester C.
04-18-2012, 01:41 PM
Batman isn't Superman, though, nor is anybody else on the face of the planet, so doesn't it kind of make the most indestructible person on the planet look bad for getting all huffy at them? Theoretically, it's possible for a normal human being to avoid killing a person as much as it is for Batman.

I haven't read a single issue of DCNU but in the old universive Batman has been depicted as a metahuman many times over the past few decades. Just forget the insane amount of resources he has onhand, no normal human could never take and give the amount of physical damage he has over the years, beating or nearly beating everyone including Superman and Wonderwoman and even took down Darkseid. Not to mention his iq that makes every genius that has come before look well like me intellectually speaking. I'm not going to even get into his Forge like ability to invent any damn thing within hours. We didn't call him Batgod, never to his face ofcourse, all those years for nothing.

Morrison_Lad
04-18-2012, 01:45 PM
I haven't read a single issue of DCNU but in the old universive Batman has been depicted as a metahuman many times over the past few decades. Just forget the insane amount of resources he has onhand, no normal human could never take and give the amount of physical damage he has over the years, beating or nearly beating everyone including Superman and Wonderwoman and even took down Darkseid. Not to mention his iq that makes every genius that has come before look well like me intellectually speaking. I'm not going to even get into his Forge like ability to invent any damn thing within hours. We didn't call him Batgod, never to his face ofcourse, all those years for nothing.

But he wasn't a meta-human. He was just the ultra-human: The finest example of a human being on Earth.

Gaelforce
04-18-2012, 03:34 PM
But he wasn't a meta-human. He was just the ultra-human: The finest example of a human being on Earth.

No, sorry, the greatest human on earth isn't fit to tie Batman's shoes. This is the 'normal' human guy who literally bloodied Darkseid's nose and who somehow calculated how to nullify the effects of three metahumans towing the earth with a giant golden lasso.

He started off human, but along the way, his metagene seriously exploded.