story meat

[tomgastall]

Okay, so I've been thinking about how to ensure that a comics script has enough story, or "lean white meat."

The approach I'm considering is to decide on a minimum number of scenes. For example, it seems like a 16 page monthly should have at least 8 scenes to be substantial.

What do you all think?

[beamish]

Well, I guess it would depend on the story itself. If the situation is strong/compelling enough you can get away with fewer scenes. Then again, I've not even been pencilled yet, so I can be wrong.

[tomgastall]

Well, I guess it would depend on the story itself. If the situation is strong/compelling enough you can get away with fewer scenes. Then again, I've not even been pencilled yet, so I can be wrong.

I don't know. I guess it's possible to do a "log cabin" comic script, but I imagine that the situation has to be pretty complex (with plenty of revelations) to support 16-18 pages. I can definitely see doing a 8 page log cabin, though.

[Jim Schnobrich]

I think it really depends on the overall quality of the book. How many scenes did New Avengers #38 have? I don't think it had that many but I still thought it was a great issue.

[tomgastall]

I think it really depends on the overall quality of the book. How many scenes did New Avengers #38 have? I don't think it had that many but I still thought it was a great issue.

I don't have a copy of NA#38; in terms of writing, what did it for you? The beats/turns throughout the story?

[beamish]

I don't know. I guess it's possible to do a "log cabin" comic script, but I imagine that the situation has to be pretty complex (with plenty of revelations) to support 16-18 pages. I can definitely see doing a 8 page log cabin, though.

I don't necessarily mean a 16 page log cabin. Rather let the story tell you how many scenes are needed.

[Jim Schnobrich]

I don't have a copy of NA#38; in terms of writing, what did it for you? The beats/turns throughout the story?

I remember it as mainly an argument between Luke Cage and Jessica Jones. I thought it was a really compelling look at their relationship.

[tomgastall]

I don't necessarily mean a 16 page log cabin. Rather let the story tell you how many scenes are needed.

I'm kind of with you on that. But it seems to get tricky when the writer doesn't get to decide the page count.

Like, if someone said they wanted a writer to write an 18 page fill-in issue, it might take a few outlines to come up with something that wasn't flabby (or jammed).

On the other hand, maybe it's not a big deal. JL#1 has around 5 beats/scenes in 24 pages. American Flagg #1 has around 11 in 28 pages.

[beamish]

I'm kind of with you on that. But it seems to get tricky when the writer doesn't get to decide the page count.

Like, if someone said they wanted a writer to write an 18 page fill-in issue, it might take a few outlines to come up with something that wasn't flabby (or jammed).

Good point, I was thinking about an ongoing. But if you have to jam a full story as a fill in you probably would need several scenes for a three act nature.

[nickellis]

There are breakdowns of average scenes per tv episode and per film, though I'd be a little reluctant to reduce it down to "x number of scenes = a good (or meaty) comic".

(Mainly because, as has been pointed out, there are many ways to skin a cat, and a good comic can be just one scene, or fifty.)

All that given, maybe the trick is to reverse engineer the thing (as I've seen Mr Fraction describe doing) and count out the scenes in a comic.

A suggestion: why don't we all break down a comic or two we bought recently into scenes and count them?

I just looked through Avengers #19 and counted nine scene changes, over 20 pages.

(I counted story beats as scene changes, rather than necessarily just a change in setting - so, for example, I counted the scene where they talk to Storm as a different scene to where Tony reveals Vision, because they dealt with different things.)

Wonder Woman #3 has seven (or eleven, depending on if you count a scene broken up by intercutting as one whole or many parts) over 20 pages.

Hellboy: House of the Living Dead seems to be 13 scenes over 49 pages, but it's 2:10am so my counting might be a little rusty.

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[tomgastall]

All estimates:

SCALPED#1: 8 beats in 20 pages
CASANOVA#1: 11 beats in 28 pages.
JL#1: 5 beats in 24 pages.

…and the one's I've been looking at:

American Flagg #1: 11 beats in 28 pages.
Batman Year One #1: 8 beats in 22 pages.

[beamish]

The Beat to page count of FAME: 50Cent was pretty high, but most of them were sic, block-rockin or both.

Sorry to interrupt, please continue with the discussion.

[tomgastall]

There are breakdowns of average scenes per tv episode and per film, though I'd be a little reluctant to reduce it down to "x number of scenes = a good (or meaty) comic".

(Mainly because, as has been pointed out, there are many ways to skin a cat, and a good comic can be just one scene, or fifty.)

If there's an approach that's worked for you, let's hear it.

I just picked that particular cat-skinning method because there has been talk about a reduction in page count on the monthly comics.

[Kelly Sue]

Are you using "beats" and "scenes" interchangeably here?

[tomgastall]

Are you using "beats" and "scenes" interchangeably here?

Yeah, for simplicity's sake. And any beat that was made up of a sequence of tiny scenes, I just counted as one.

[Kelly Sue]

How do you define "beat"?

Coming from an actor's training, beats are smaller units than scenes.

[Kelly Sue]

There are breakdowns of average scenes per tv episode and per film, though I'd be a little reluctant to reduce it down to "x number of scenes = a good (or meaty) comic".

(Mainly because, as has been pointed out, there are many ways to skin a cat, and a good comic can be just one scene, or fifty.)

All that given, maybe the trick is to reverse engineer the thing (as I've seen Mr Fraction describe doing) and count out the scenes in a comic.

A suggestion: why don't we all break down a comic or two we bought recently into scenes and count them?

I just looked through Avengers #19 and counted nine scene changes, over 20 pages.

(I counted story beats as scene changes, rather than necessarily just a change in setting - so, for example, I counted the scene where they talk to Storm as a different scene to where Tony reveals Vision, because they dealt with different things.)

Wonder Woman #3 has seven (or eleven, depending on if you count a scene broken up by intercutting as one whole or many parts) over 20 pages.

Hellboy: House of the Living Dead seems to be 13 scenes over 49 pages, but it's 2:10am so my counting might be a little rusty.

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Oh, hey--I missed this post entirely--I thought Tom just spontaneously started counting! If I get my page count in for the day, I'm going to play along. (Which means I better get to it, huh?)

[tomgastall]

How do you define "beat"?

Coming from an actor's training, beats are smaller units than scenes.

I define it as a loose top-down advance in plot. So, the Ruby Seychelle op at the beginning of Cass #1, I count that as one beat.

Thanks for playing along, btw. I know this stuff can be a miasma to discuss.

[beamish]

How do you define "beat"?

Coming from an actor's training, beats are smaller units than scenes.

I define beats as...oh never mind.

[nickellis]

The best way to describe how I did it is probably 'chunk of story'.

You're right KS, it's probably not 'beats' like in acting, but it's also not 'scenes' like in a film script, mainly because as opposed to a film script, I didn't think the setting made as much of a difference.

To elaborate on the 'chunk of story' idea, I was thinking along the lines of how paragraphs work in an essay, in that each 'chunk' is about one thing. When a new thing happens, that's a new 'chunk'.

It is a *very* imprecise science. :)

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[mattfraction]

sorry-- retracted. i don't really have time or energy or focus to be able to contribute, so i shouldn't. carry on, as you were, etc etc.