Soemthing I've come to realize about comics and myself...

[Ziggy Stardust]

In gnereal, mind you, I find my relationship with comics to generally lean towards depressive.

I mean even my favorite hero growing up, Spider-Man, was CONSTANTLY suffering from his "Parker Luck". The X-Men were feared and hated. Batman became so mentally messed up that he cannot be close to anyone. Ben Grimm is stuck as a monster.... Ditto for the Hulk.

I know the idea is for a hero to suffer, but there just seems to be less and less light at the end of the tunnel.

And to add the "real world" to this medium, comics just seem to be getting darker and darker. Hell, even the old camaraderie of the old comics seems to be gone as heroes are fighting each other as much as villains, it seems. I think the worst example of this would be the Ultimate Redd Skull/Black Widow story showing her origin.

Factor in that despite comics' best efforts to have us follow and care about these characters they seem to get wiped and restarted one a decade and I just wonder why I even still look at websites to see what's happeneing with this old love of mine.

[stealthwise]

That's only one side of the coin though. There have been plenty of stories where Spider-Man has a loving and devoted family around him, where he's saved the day and not everything crapped out for him. They just tend to get lost in the shuffle where writers want to restore things to the status quo.

The X-Men too, even in the Lee/Kirby or Claremont/Byrne days, had plenty of good times. Ben Grimm is a beloved neighbourhood figure who has a family that loves and supports him. The Hulk... ok, I'm hard-pressed to think of nice moments for him outside of some of the PAD days.

Part of the problem is the never-ending need for comic companies to show these guys in dire circumstances, to milk the undying drama for all its worth. Ratings for tv shows and sales for comics tend to show that a lull in that action causes people to wander off for some reason.

I'm amazed you haven't mentioned the Sisyphus-like Matt Murdock though; that guy's life from Bendis through to Diggle (and likely before) has been a non-stop depression-fest.

[dasNdanger]

I agree, and it's one reason I'm finding it hard to find comics I really like these days.

I LOVE for my hero to suffer. I've often thought that I have some kind of disorder where I can only feel sympathy for male characters who suffer...a lot. :p I think that's why I loved Wraith (rom Annihilation Conquest) so much, and - of course - Wolverine, Elric, Mad Max, Josey Wales, and so many others. I have always been drawn to the tortured hero.

That said, I also need some levity, some hope, some victory. Yes, I want to care about the characters, but when their is never any sort of hope for them, when you know they will always die or lose, then I refuse to get emotionally involved, which sort of backfires on the industry because once I stop caring, then I stop reading. I stopped reading X-Men books because they never really win, never really succeed. It's just too much of a downer. And other books, especially the non-superhero ones, are just so dark and twisted I find them totally unreadable.

I have no problem getting emotionally involved with a tortured hero, but I am not going to get wrapped up with books and characters that only bring heartache. No one can live like that in the fantasy world, or in the real world.


das

[Ziggy Stardust]

Yeah, I gave up on DD during the Miller years. Too depressing.

[Jim Ritchey]

Funny, no mention of any situation that Stan Lee didn't CREATE.

CURSE YOU, STAN LEE, FOR RUINING COMICS WITH CHARACTERIZATION!!!!

Usually Alan Moore catches all the shit for this kinda thing, but I think you've nailed the root of the problem. :D

But seriously superheroes 95% SUCKED before Stan, and the things you've described might be threadbare, but they're kinda ingrained/'part and parcel' for those characters. Don't know if you could separate Parker's (or Scott Summers--or Matt Murdock--or down to Wolverine and everybody else in The Marvel Universe) REALLY HORRIBLE example of romantic behavior, or Ben Grimm being trapped as a monster from who they are. You might just need new characters, because those ARE their personalities, and the infusion of 'soap opera' melodrama & arguing like a family is what made them different and appealing in the first place.

Only time I've seen Hulk funny was in Defenders by Gerber, and it was fantastic. Then again, Gerber improved on Stan's tropes, instead of aping them. Too bad more writers didn't follow his example.

[Glitch]

I think Batman's really shown a lot of growth lately. Batman #1 especially gave us a pretty optimistic take on Bruce Wayne.

I also recommend checking out the new Daredevil!

[Endy52]

Ziggy > Got it in one, man. Totally agree.

[The Beast Of Yucca Flats]

I'm amazed you haven't mentioned the Sisyphus-like Matt Murdock though; that guy's life from Bendis through to Diggle (and likely before) has been a non-stop depression-fest.

Waid seems to have found some stories to tell that actually aren't just slight variations of "Born Again."

[The Xenos]

Huh. I think part of the trouble is that at Marvel and DC, you're dealing with characters whose story arcs never actually end. That light at the end of the tunnel? You're never getting there. If the character has to suffer for an eventual payoff.. well it's either going to happen over and over and over; or they'll just always be suffering because you have to extend their character arc ad infinium. Or you know, until the next continuity reboot.. so they can start their story all over.. (or get turned into busty eye candy with the memory of a goldfish.. grumble grumble.. )

[stevapalooza]

Life leans toward depressive. Youre just realistic.

[Ziggy Stardust]

The thing is, while I get that some argue that these are core elements in the character, I tend to disagree. What's wrong with character growth?

What would be wrong in Marvel coming up with a new Charlie Brown character and letting Spidey evolve beyond that role?

What would be wrong in allowing Ben Grimm to control his appearence?

Why could the Prof Hulk not remain?

And don't get me started on the blatant idiocy that if Marvel society hates mutants for their powers and abilities that they would embrace those who are essentially the same, they just weren't born that way. Yes, that last line was intentional. It gets worse when you factor in how many times the X-Men have publically saved the world.

I guess when you're on this rotating wheel it becomes disturbing that you know you'll always end up back in the same place with these characters.

And it's NOT just Marvel.

Batman still appears to have relationship issues. In Superman's books, we're back to his pining for Lois. The JSA relaunch from a few years ago had a masacre at a family picnic. And Johns decided that even a usually upbeat hero like Barry Allen needed a "dark past". And that's without delving into the "darkening" of the JLA's past with identity Crisis and the blood and gore fest that was Infinite Crisis which basically shit all over CoIE and had a hamfisted charicature of anyone who hated this dark path. Factor in that this charicature was killing people and beheading people.... sigh.... Even Mary Marvel had to become dark and slutty.

Ever since Miller's DKR and Moore's Watchmen and the emergence of Wolverine and the Punisher as popular "heroes", comics in general have been getting darker and more violent. And the rampant misogyny is still evident in today's comics. Yes, I'm looking at YOU, Lobdell!

The publishers moan that they want "new readers", yet they still seem to be aiming for the same old crowd, the ttenaged boy who wants blood, tits, and ass. And, IMO, they're doing this at the expense of their old readers, the pre-teen crowd, and often WOMEN.

And the juggernaut just seems to keep on rolling.

So, not only are heroes stuck in an endless loop of futility, but that loop gets darker every year.

As to Waid, I don't always agree with what he says, but he remains a beacon of light in many regards. His Brave And The Bold book was fun and harkened back to the old days without being corny or cheesie. And I have faith he'll do great things with Daredevil. However, his voice often gets buried. And I fear DD will be back to the dark, grim, and gritty thing he's been since Miller.

BTW, I forgot to mention that a reformed villain just cannot seem to stay that way, what with Sandman and Gladitor(Daredevil). And don't even get me started on the ONE Luthor in all the realities being made into a villain by Johns.

So, yes, I AM focusing on specific characters, but is it not becoming more and more obvious that the tone of comics is NOT an uplifting one? And I, for one, started reading comics to see beings with powers and abilities doing good things for good reasons. I wanted to see people who were better than the daily assholes we have to deal with. Now? Now it seems our heroes have to be assholes so we can relate to them. Is that REALLY what a hero should be?