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View Full Version : Fox delays new show airing on HULU free by 8 days. Sees piracy jump as high as 189%



Jason California
08-22-2011, 09:35 PM
It’s been a week since Fox stopped offering free access to its TV-shows the day after they air on television. The TV-studio took this drastic step in the hope of getting more people to watch their shows live and thus make more revenue. TV-viewers, however, are outraged by the decision and have massively turned to pirated sources to watch their favorite shows.
http://torrentfreak.com/images/fox-tv.jpg

One of the main motivations for people to download and stream TV-shows from unauthorized sources is availability. If fans can’t get a show through legal channels they turn to pirated alternatives.

This is one of the reasons why Hulu drastically decreased TV-show piracy in the U.S. Viewers are happy with the legal streaming option it offers them, but not all studios see that as a success.

Starting last Monday, Fox began delaying (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/27/business/media/fox-to-limit-next-day-streaming-on-hulu.html) the availability of new episodes on Hulu and Fox.com for 8 days. The decision goes directly against the wishes of the public but Fox will take this disappointment as collateral damage in the hope that the delay will result in more live viewers and better deals with cable and satellite distributors.

When the plan was first announced last month we predicted (http://torrentfreak.com/fox-will-boost-u-s-tv-show-piracy-110728/) that it could lead to a significant boost in online piracy of Fox shows, and this does indeed turn out to be the case.

Over the last week TorrentFreak tracked two Fox shows on BitTorrent to see if there was an upturn in the number of downloads compared to the previous weeks, and the results are as expected. For both Gordon Ramsay’s Hell’s Kitchen and MasterChef the download numbers have surged.

During the first 5 days, the number of downloads from the U.S. for the latest episode of Hell’s Kitchen increased by 114% compared to the previous 3 episodes. For MasterChef the upturn was even higher with 189% more downloads from the U.S. For MasterChef; the extra high demand may in part have been facilitated by the fact that it was the season finale.

Aside from BitTorrent, there are of course many other options for people to catch up with a missed episode. YouTube for example, from where tens of thousands of people streamed the latest Hell’s Kitchen episode.

Instead of Hulu or Fox, the pirates get the praise. On YouTube and BitTorrent sites many users thank the uploaders for making the shows available.
“You so rock and allowed me to keep my promise to my son. I promised if he cleaned for one hour he could watch Hell’s Kitchen with me. He was excited and then disappointed that we couldn’t watch it on Hulu or Fox.com,” WithurShield writes.

“Thanks a lot for uploading these, Hulu used to be my go-to but alas, they have failed me,” minniemica adds.

On the other hand, several users who went to Hulu expecting to see a fresh episode left comments berating Fox (although most target Hulu) for their decision not to make the episodes available for free.

“I couldn’t believe what I was seeing when I went to Hell’s Kitchen and Master Chef. Right in the middle of the series idiot at Hulu decided to through in the pay services. At least have the decency to wait till the end [sic],” one commenter writes (http://www.hulu.com/watch/266414/hells-kitchen-10-chefs-compete?c=Reality-and-Game-Shows) on Hulu.

“What I don’t like is up until now I have been able to watch the episode of Hell’s Kitchen the day after it airs and all of a sudden they now want me to pay for it?” another commenter adds.

There is no doubt that the Hulu delay is not in the best interests of TV-viewers. Although it might be a good business decision in the short term, one has to doubt whether driving people to ‘pirated’ content is a wise choice. To many viewers it is clearly a step backward.

Instead of artificial restrictions the public demands flexibility when it comes to entertainment. They want to decide when and where they want to watch something, and right now video streaming sites, BitTorrent and even the old VCR do a better job at this than Fox.

“I’m going to go buy a DVR or dust off my VCR and I will be recording my tv shows from now on,” a commenter writes on Hulu.


http://torrentfreak.com/foxs-8-day-delay-on-hulu-triggers-piracy-surge-110822/

Andrew
08-22-2011, 09:40 PM
Heh.

Dreaded Anomaly
08-22-2011, 09:53 PM
It's nice to have some data to support a common-sense understanding of consumers' motivations: they want to support the shows they watch by obtaining them legally, but they also want to watch at their own convenience. The decisions of networks and production companies are no longer a limiting factor for the latter motivation.

Obviously they get less from Hulu than if people were to watch shows when they air because of the differences in advertising prices, but as this data shows, limiting Hulu access won't increase ratings at airtime. The choice is not "some money" vs. "more money," it's "some money" vs. "less money." As long as companies refuse to recognize that reality, I doubt we'll see any really significant changes in business models.

costello
08-22-2011, 11:15 PM
It just goes against everything Fox stands for; if it happened eight days ago it didn't happen.

Masculine Todd
08-22-2011, 11:17 PM
I like piracy because I don't have to pay for media, but I can still enjoy it.

#ondatamericatip

costello
08-22-2011, 11:20 PM
I like piracy because I don't have to pay for media, but I can still enjoy it.

#ondatamericatip

I'm going to go out and blow ten guys because of this. Thank you!

Masculine Todd
08-22-2011, 11:22 PM
You're going to enjoy yourself for the first few, but by dick #4, you'll experience suction/jaw fatigue, and by dick 6, invariably, you'll get some bad grooming (2 out of every 6 gay men don't take care of that shit).

Ten is just excessive. You have to have boundaries.

costello
08-22-2011, 11:28 PM
You're going to enjoy yourself for the first few, but by dick #4, you'll experience suction/jaw fatigue, and by dick 6, invariably, you'll get some bad grooming (2 out of every 6 gay men don't take care of that shit).

Ten is just excessive. You have to have boundaries.

I'm okay with that. Eventually my mouth will just be a gaping hole damp with the wetness of strangers. Yet somehow, beyond the possibility of sexually transmitted diseases, there is a warmth and kindness in this world.

Jason California
08-22-2011, 11:31 PM
Personally, I don't think you would dig it Costello.

costello
08-22-2011, 11:32 PM
Personally, I don't think you would dig it Costello.

There's nothing personal about it.

Jason California
08-22-2011, 11:35 PM
There's nothing personal about it.

OK, go to town.

costello
08-22-2011, 11:38 PM
OK, go to town.

I didn't mean it like that, but that's cool.

Jason California
08-22-2011, 11:39 PM
I didn't mean it like that, but that's cool.

There's nothing personal about it.

costello
08-22-2011, 11:42 PM
There's nothing personal about it.

:)

Ben
08-23-2011, 02:45 AM
It's nice to have some data to support a common-sense understanding of consumers' motivations: they want to support the shows they watch by obtaining them legally, but they also want to watch at their own convenience. The decisions of networks and production companies are no longer a limiting factor for the latter motivation.

Obviously they get less from Hulu than if people were to watch shows when they air because of the differences in advertising prices, but as this data shows, limiting Hulu access won't increase ratings at airtime. The choice is not "some money" vs. "more money," it's "some money" vs. "less money." As long as companies refuse to recognize that reality, I doubt we'll see any really significant changes in business models.They need to realize the rules have changed and they're no longer in control.

Kirblar
08-23-2011, 02:48 AM
This further shows how stupid the Nielsen system is. Willing to bet that almost none of the people "pirating" the content actually matter when it comes to calculating advertising dollars.

Greygor
08-23-2011, 02:57 AM
This was a surprise to them?

Even if you have a free-to-air show you'll find people downloading it if you delay the source

SidekicksRevenge
08-23-2011, 02:58 AM
It's nice to have some data to support a common-sense understanding of consumers' motivations: they want to support the shows they watch by obtaining them legally, but they also want to watch at their own convenience. The decisions of networks and production companies are no longer a limiting factor for the latter motivation.

Obviously they get less from Hulu than if people were to watch shows when they air because of the differences in advertising prices, but as this data shows, limiting Hulu access won't increase ratings at airtime. The choice is not "some money" vs. "more money," it's "some money" vs. "less money." As long as companies refuse to recognize that reality, I doubt we'll see any really significant changes in business models.

We don't necessarily know any of this. We know that it means more people went to torrent the show and left self-righteous comments about their poor kids being raised in a world where "angry cooking show with my 'rents" is somehow a reward worth striving for.

What we don't know is how many people bit the bullet and watched the show when it was on. And I don't think we know how many hulu-watchers they can lose so long as xx number of them watch it on good ol' fashioned TV. I'll be that, for now, the money actually does swing in Fox's favor.


They need to realize the rules have changed and they're no longer in control.

I don't think the rules have changed so much as they are changing. TV-on-the-internet is going to change things, no matter how hard networks resist that change. But I think they can and have slowed down the inevitable.

Kevin T Brown
08-23-2011, 03:49 AM
Fox delaying their shows by 8 days is new? They were doing it with House all of last season. I was having DVR problems (thankfully it's no longer a problem) and I kept missing it, so I went online to watch it and discovered the 8 day delay then. What ended up happening is since I couldn't record it and couldn't watch it when I wanted to, I stopped watching it altogether. They lost a viewer, well 2 actually when you include my wife, because of the delay.

Ben
08-23-2011, 06:48 AM
This further shows how stupid the Nielsen system is. Willing to bet that almost none of the people "pirating" the content actually matter when it comes to calculating advertising dollars.Nor should they since they don't see any advertising!

Evan the Shaggy
08-23-2011, 06:49 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8U7HztvetQk&feature=player_detailpage#t=69s

Ben
08-23-2011, 06:50 AM
I don't think the rules have changed so much as they are changing. TV-on-the-internet is going to change things, no matter how hard networks resist that change. But I think they can and have slowed down the inevitable.They've only slowed it down in the sense that they could speed it up and choose to use their brains to figure out how to make money from it. But instead they're just throwing a tantrum and jumping into the grave with the coffin of their old business model.

Stark Raving
08-23-2011, 06:56 AM
AMC does the same thing with their On Demand shows.

MayorMitch100
08-23-2011, 06:57 AM
If you're a Dish customer you can watch them the next day on Hulu.

Ray G.
08-23-2011, 07:25 AM
It was a pretty epic dick move to do this right before the finale of Masterchef.

But eh, someone uploaded it on YouTube the next morning.

It's actually going to work a bit - I probably will watch more Fox live to avoid the hassle. But I don't watch that much Fox anyway.

Ben
08-23-2011, 07:35 AM
It was a pretty epic dick move to do this right before the finale of Masterchef.

But eh, someone uploaded it on YouTube the next morning.

It's actually going to work a bit - I probably will watch more Fox live to avoid the hassle. But I don't watch that much Fox anyway.If you know what you're doing, it's more hassle to watch it live. The number of people who know what they're doing is only going to increase...

Doc Randy
08-23-2011, 07:57 AM
Fuckin' hell. You mean I might have to wait 8 days to watch something?!?! Wahhhhhhhh. :cry:
Our society is turning into a bunch of spoiled pussies obsessed with instant gratification.

I predict onscreen advertising integrated into the picture within 5 years. It will be done in such a way you won't be able to simply edit it out.

Evan the Shaggy
08-23-2011, 07:59 AM
Fuckin' hell. You mean I might have to wait 8 days to watch something?!?! Wahhhhhhhh. :cry:
Our society is turning into a bunch of spoiled pussies obsessed with instant gratification.

I predict onscreen advertising integrated into the picture within 5 years. It will be done in such a way you won't be able to simply edit it out.

Calm down.

Let's be real, studios would pull shit like that regardless of piracy.

I seem to recall the "during show ads" being integrated WAY before piracy was a factor.

Ben
08-23-2011, 08:00 AM
Fuckin' hell. You mean I might have to wait 8 days to watch something?!?! Wahhhhhhhh. :cry:
Our society is turning into a bunch of spoiled pussies obsessed with instant gratification.

I predict onscreen advertising integrated into the picture within 5 years. It will be done in such a way you won't be able to simply edit it out.Fuckin' hell. You mean I might have to wait 8 days to travel 50 miles?!?! Wahhhhhhh.

Technology changes the game. It has nothing to do with being spoiled. If people want something and they can get it, they'll tend to go and get it! That's just how it is. You can bitch and moan about how spoiled we are, but it doesn't really matter. Companies who want money from people need to adapt or they'll go out of business.

Evan the Shaggy
08-23-2011, 08:03 AM
Fuckin' hell. You mean I might have to wait 8 days to travel 50 miles?!?! Wahhhhhhh.

Technology changes the game. It has nothing to do with being spoiled. If people want something and they can get it, they'll tend to go and get it! That's just how it is. You can bitch and moan about how spoiled we are, but it doesn't really matter. Companies who want money from people need to adapt or they'll go out of business.

Fucking populace wanting cell phones! They should all stick to beepers God damn it! What a bunch of spoiled jerks!

Evan the Shaggy
08-23-2011, 08:04 AM
Why don't people write letters anymore?

Fuck this instantaneous transfer of information. People are such assholes!

Ashwin Pande
08-23-2011, 08:06 AM
Stupid society and their twitter and message boards!! I can just walk down to the street corner and yell random incoherent nonsense no one else gives a shit about!

Doc Randy
08-23-2011, 08:06 AM
Fuckin' hell. You mean I might have to wait 8 days to travel 50 miles?!?! Wahhhhhhh.

Technology changes the game. It has nothing to do with being spoiled. If people want something and they can get it, they'll tend to go and get it! That's just how it is. You can bitch and moan about how spoiled we are, but it doesn't really matter. Companies who want money from people need to adapt or they'll go out of business.

I agree companies need to adapt. I also believe that if a company chooses not to adapt, so be it. That is their right. Let them fail.
But that doesn't give anybody the right or justification for ignoring the desires of the copyright holders by engaging in piracy.

What I don't agree with is the misguided sense of entitlement that comes with piracy.

Ben
08-23-2011, 08:09 AM
I agree companies need to adapt. I also believe that if a company chooses not to adapt, so be it. That is their right. Let them fail.
But that doesn't give anybody the right or justification for ignoring the desires of the copyright holders by engaging in piracy.

What I don't agree with is the misguided sense of entitlement that comes with piracy.I understand what you're saying and agree to extent. However, two points:

1. Whether people have a right or justification is irrelevant. People do the behavior. That is that. Crying that what they're doing is wrong will only give you an ulcer. You either treat the cause of the behavior (what causes them to justify the behavior to themselves) or adapt.
2. What's considered right or justified changes as technology changes. I would not be surprised if, as the technology continues to improve and spread, a few generations from now people don't consider this kind of piracy to be wrong in any way.

Marcdachamp
08-23-2011, 08:10 AM
It's nice to have some data to support a common-sense understanding of consumers' motivations: they want to support the shows they watch by obtaining them legally, but they also want to watch at their own convenience. The decisions of networks and production companies are no longer a limiting factor for the latter motivation.

Obviously they get less from Hulu than if people were to watch shows when they air because of the differences in advertising prices, but as this data shows, limiting Hulu access won't increase ratings at airtime. The choice is not "some money" vs. "more money," it's "some money" vs. "less money." As long as companies refuse to recognize that reality, I doubt we'll see any really significant changes in business models.

Exactly. Has no one learned ANYTHING from the music industry? These companies need to stop kicking and fighting against these changes and embrace them. Just because you're expanding the model, it doesn't mean you have to abandon the old one. CDs, movie theaters, television, print media... the only way these things will die is if those industries put their finger in their ears and ignore what's happening all around them. You HAVE to offer legal alternatives to downloading. And you also have to put forth an effort to combat the piracy while you're at it. Nintendo has done a lot to battle piracy, but there's always more that you can do.

Evan the Shaggy
08-23-2011, 08:10 AM
I understand what you're saying and agree to extent. However, two points:

1. Whether people have a right or justification is irrelevant. People do the behavior. That is that. Crying that what they're doing is wrong will only give you an ulcer. You either treat the cause of the behavior (what causes them to justify the behavior to themselves) or adapt.
2. What's considered right or justified changes as technology changes. I would not be surprised if, as the technology continues to improve and spread, a few generations from now people don't consider this kind of piracy to be wrong in any way.

You should be sending this to us in smoke signals you heathen!

Ben
08-23-2011, 08:14 AM
Exactly. Has no one learned ANYTHING from the music industry? These companies need to stop kicking and fighting against these changes and embrace them. Just because you're expanding the model, it doesn't mean you have to abandon the old one. CDs, movie theaters, television, print media... the only way these things will die is if those industries put their finger in their ears and ignore what's happening all around them. You HAVE to offer legal alternatives to downloading. And you also have to put forth an effort to combat the piracy while you're at it. Nintendo has done a lot to battle piracy, but there's always more that you can do.Efforts to stop piracy like Nintendo's are a waste of time and money. They've done nothing to stop piracy. It's still as easy as ever. As Scott Kurtz put it, these people have nothing else to do all day but masturbate and break your DRM protections. Eventually, they'll masturbate so much that it hurts, so they'll go back to cracking your DRM. Piracy can tell a company a lot about what their potential customers want from their products (and no, it's not just that they want them for free). Use that information to inform your business, but it's really a waste of time to try and lock shit down or fuck with the customers of yours that are willing to pay you or go through legal channels to get your content.

Ben
08-23-2011, 08:15 AM
You should be sending this to us in smoke signals you heathen!I'm such a spoiled, lazy pussy!

Doc Randy
08-23-2011, 08:15 AM
I understand what you're saying and agree to extent. However, two points:

1. Whether people have a right or justification is irrelevant. People do the behavior. That is that. Crying that what they're doing is wrong will only give you an ulcer. You either treat the cause of the behavior (what causes them to justify the behavior to themselves) or adapt.
2. What's considered right or justified changes as technology changes. I would not be surprised if, as the technology continues to improve and spread, a few generations from now people don't consider this kind of piracy to be wrong in any way.

All of this may be true. What I fear is a massive reduction in capital investment and sponsorship for the creation of art and creative content. If there is a perception of less return on investment, and piracy contributes to that perception, then there will be less money for content creation.

Marcdachamp
08-23-2011, 09:19 AM
Efforts to stop piracy like Nintendo's are a waste of time and money. They've done nothing to stop piracy. It's still as easy as ever. As Scott Kurtz put it, these people have nothing else to do all day but masturbate and break your DRM protections. Eventually, they'll masturbate so much that it hurts, so they'll go back to cracking your DRM. Piracy can tell a company a lot about what their potential customers want from their products (and no, it's not just that they want them for free). Use that information to inform your business, but it's really a waste of time to try and lock shit down or fuck with the customers of yours that are willing to pay you or go through legal channels to get your content.

You'll never put a total end to piracy. It's impossible. But those companies need to work together to shut down the illegal channels as they crop up. For every Kazaa or Bear Share or whatever you put down, you frustrate those who want your product and you make the legal channels all the more appealing.

Ben
08-23-2011, 09:24 AM
You'll never put a total end to piracy. It's impossible. But those companies need to work together to shut down the illegal channels as they crop up. For every Kazaa or Bear Share or whatever you put down, you frustrate those who want your product and you make the legal channels all the more appealing.I don't think it has much effect. There are so many outlets, most pirates probably have two or three sources at any one time.

Ben
08-23-2011, 09:25 AM
All of this may be true. What I fear is a massive reduction in capital investment and sponsorship for the creation of art and creative content. If there is a perception of less return on investment, and piracy contributes to that perception, then there will be less money for content creation.It may be that in the future there is less content being created. These days, we have a LOT, so people will not have any trouble finding quality entertainment. But for people in the entertainment industry, these will be scary times.

bartleby
08-23-2011, 09:26 AM
The less you contribute to the revenue stream, the less your demands are going to be listened to. Studios and broadcasters just aren't making enough money from ad-supported streaming for them to care too much about what those people want.

Marcdachamp
08-23-2011, 09:32 AM
I don't think it has much effect. There are so many outlets, most pirates probably have two or three sources at any one time.

The hardcore ones, yes, but your average teenager? They're gonna cave when they have to constantly redownload songs and such because the latest illegal source got shut down.

For this to work, though, there needs to be cooperation. Companies need to stop dipping their feet into digital options and jump in, instead. No more of this "Album only" download shit, no more lockout dates for shows that have already aired... unified front. You need to offer both options.

bartleby
08-23-2011, 09:38 AM
My only problem with the delay window is it being 8 days. Occasionally, I've had my DVR mess up and not record something. Having to wait 8 days to watch it online means that I can't catch up before the next episode airs.

JamesV
08-23-2011, 09:40 AM
My only problem with the delay window is it being 8 days. Occasionally, I've had my DVR mess up and not record something. Having to wait 8 days to watch it online means that I can't catch up before the next episode airs.

Yeah 8 days is such a strange time frame. I would think that you would want people to be able to watch an episode they missed prior to the next episode.

bartleby
08-23-2011, 09:44 AM
Yeah 8 days is such a strange time frame. I would think that you would want people to be able to watch an episode they missed prior to the next episode.

It's most likely about Nielsen which tracks Live+7 DVR viewings. So basically, they're holding shows until after Nielsen stops tracking ratings.

Masculine Todd
08-23-2011, 09:47 AM
Do u guise ever feel a song in ur hart but u dont feel a dollur in ur pocket?

But dat song iz rite der on mediafire, u no?

A.Huerta
08-23-2011, 10:04 AM
Fuckin' hell. You mean I might have to wait 8 days to watch something?!?! Wahhhhhhhh. :cry:
Our society is turning into a bunch of spoiled pussies obsessed with instant gratification.

I predict onscreen advertising integrated into the picture within 5 years. It will be done in such a way you won't be able to simply edit it out.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P81bb0Tzwbo

A.Huerta
08-23-2011, 10:07 AM
It may be that in the future there is less content being created. These days, we have a LOT, so people will not have any trouble finding quality entertainment. But for people in the entertainment industry, these will be scary times.

This.

And its already happening right now.

Marcdachamp
08-23-2011, 10:11 AM
This.

And its already happening right now.

Yep. It's why reality TV made such a big splash. It's dirt cheap to produce.

A.Huerta
08-23-2011, 10:13 AM
Yep. It's why reality TV made such a big splash. It's dirt cheap to produce.



I cant believe how many "reality" shows there are, its like all those movies about the future are coming true. Cant wait to watch the real Running Man and Death Race.

artimoff
08-23-2011, 10:15 AM
My only problem with the delay window is it being 8 days. Occasionally, I've had my DVR mess up and not record something. Having to wait 8 days to watch it online means that I can't catch up before the next episode airs.

If you have a DTV or cable subscription, you'll be able to watch it on Hulu next day without delay. This 8 day move is to help cable services.

artimoff
08-23-2011, 10:19 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P81bb0Tzwbo

Those kids are ready to be controlled by their corporate masters and the odd Perez Hilton.

bartleby
08-23-2011, 10:24 AM
If you have a DTV or cable subscription, you'll be able to watch it on Hulu next day without delay. This 8 day move is to help cable services.

Yeah, I was talking more about the past couple of years with shows that streamed on an 8-day delay—HOUSE, GOSSIP GIRL, most everything on FX, etc.

Masculine Todd
08-23-2011, 10:26 AM
Wouldn't it mean more content being produced and quicker, because there's an instant audience and no industry gatekeepers/facilitators/middle men?

It just means you can't make a living off it, and the capital is cultural, not monetary. I mean, look at how much more content we have now because of the net.

Dreaded Anomaly
08-23-2011, 10:37 AM
Wouldn't it mean more content being produced and quicker, because there's an instant audience and no industry gatekeepers/facilitators/middle men?

It just means you can't make a living off it, and the capital is cultural, not monetary. I mean, look at how much more content we have now because of the net.

Plenty of people do make a living off webcomics/Youtube series/etc. I think the change we'll see will be a huge decrease in average production costs. Effects continue to get cheaper and easier to do, and as more people gain some level of fame for participating in independent content, the cult of celebrity will diffuse to a degree, and huge paychecks will fade along with it.

Doc Randy
08-23-2011, 10:41 AM
Wouldn't it mean more content being produced and quicker, because there's an instant audience and no industry gatekeepers/facilitators/middle men?

It just means you can't make a living off it, and the capital is cultural, not monetary. I mean, look at how much more content we have now because of the net.

Yes. We will be perpetually swimming in a sea of low budget amateur hobbyists.

Masculine Todd
08-23-2011, 10:49 AM
Plenty of people do make a living off webcomics/Youtube series/etc. I think the change we'll see will be a huge decrease in average production costs. Effects continue to get cheaper and easier to do, and as more people gain some level of fame for participating in independent content, the cult of celebrity will diffuse to a degree, and huge paychecks will fade along with it.

Right, we'll see DIY artists being the ones subverting distribution models and experimenting with how to make money with releases, because, as we've seen, virtually every other major media industry has refused to adapt and acclimate to the effects of changing technology and data distribution, and instead stubbornly fights it. I remember hearing about that major meeting from, like, 2001 or so when all the heads of the major record labels met and discussed file sharing, and instead of creating initiatives and having think tanks come together and plot how to find a model for production that fit with the internet, they just came to the consensus of re-releasing their major sellers in cleaned-up formats and mp3 and allowing Apple to pretty much dictate how music was sold online.

And then we have kids producing 4 minute, serialized horror stories on youtube through several channels that all interconnect, releasing them all in one package on DVD with features and a streamlined chronology of the clips a year later and making a profit.


Yes. We will be perpetually swimming in a sea of low budget amateur hobbyists.

But can't "amateur hobbyists" make good stuff? Isn't there also good in the fact that some A&R guy will no longer be responsible for predicting your taste and deciding, in part, what makes it to your ears? I mean, there's a plus side to this.

Doc Randy
08-23-2011, 10:56 AM
But can't "amateur hobbyists" make good stuff? Isn't there also good in the fact that some A&R guy will no longer be responsible for predicting your taste and deciding, in part, what makes it to your ears? I mean, there's a plus side to this.

Sure. There can be some great DIY amateurish stuff out there. We have that now. We also have the really expensively produced stuff. I like having both.

As mentioned earlier, the biggest drawback to piracy (apart from infringing on creator rights) is the way it is and will affect capital investment and sponsorship of content creation.

Ray G.
08-23-2011, 10:56 AM
If you have a DTV or cable subscription, you'll be able to watch it on Hulu next day without delay. This 8 day move is to help cable services.

Comcast included?

Evan the Shaggy
08-23-2011, 03:42 PM
Yes. We will be perpetually swimming in a sea of low budget amateur hobbyists.

I'm not advocating piracy, but let's be real here. These studios are about bottom line and they're businesses.

Do you really believe that if piracy didn't exist, there wouldn't be as many dirt cheap produced tv shows? American Idol led the way for the reality train. All studios had to do was look at the fact that they could get similar, if not higher, ratings with lower cost programs.

Doc Randy
08-23-2011, 04:08 PM
I'm not advocating piracy, but let's be real here. These studios are about bottom line and they're businesses.

Do you really believe that if piracy didn't exist, there wouldn't be as many dirt cheap produced tv shows? American Idol led the way for the reality train. All studios had to do was look at the fact that they could get similar, if not higher, ratings with lower cost programs.

I'm saying they are going to get cheaper and cheaper and you are going to see more and more low-budget crap. And in the process, the quality expensive programs/content will become increasingly rare.

ashland10
08-23-2011, 04:10 PM
Is FOx also going to do this with COmcast ONdemand?

Evan the Shaggy
08-23-2011, 04:17 PM
I'm saying they are going to get cheaper and cheaper and you are going to see more and more low-budget crap. And in the process, the quality expensive programs/content will become increasingly rare.

Yeah but thats not on piracy. Thats just how it was going to happen regardless.

Bedlam66
08-23-2011, 04:21 PM
The Delay didn't affect me at all. I was already going to use bittorrent to watch the Finale of masterchef.

Doc Randy
08-23-2011, 04:24 PM
Yeah but thats not on piracy. Thats just how it was going to happen regardless.

Piracy is one part of it, but not the whole picture.

Again, the perception that piracy diminishes returns on capital investment and sponsorship of arts and content creation leads to less and less investment.

Evan the Shaggy
08-23-2011, 04:27 PM
Piracy is one part of it, but not the whole picture.

Again, the perception that piracy diminishes returns on capital investment and sponsorship of arts and content creation leads to less and less investment.

From a textbook stance, sure.

But in this day and age, less and less investment comes from the "doing more with less" mentality that is sweeping our culture. Expecting to get maximum ROI from limited, to nill, investment overall.

If you want to be mad at something, be angry about that more than piracy.

Masculine Todd
08-24-2011, 06:59 AM
I'm saying they are going to get cheaper and cheaper and you are going to see more and more low-budget crap. And in the process, the quality expensive programs/content will become increasingly rare.

Unless someone(s) find newer models, possibly those large-capital media entities who have the resources to do so (but stubbornly refuse to acclimate), which, incidentally are what so many DIY artists are doing now.

Doc Randy
08-24-2011, 10:09 AM
From a textbook stance, sure.


It isn't just an abstract textbook stance.

Here is something I posted a while back:


'll give you an example. I am an avid fan of flight simulators. These have been a niche mainstay in the gaming world since the dawn of the PC. Microsoft has been the key supplier of the most common platform and just released the 10th edition a couple years back. Around this platform was an entire industry of 3rd party add-on software. You could do some amazing things with this add-on software that far exceeded the initial scope of the MS product.

The great thing was that these add-ons were often amazing works of art and engineering developed by a few guys working together. It was a whole cottage industry of dedicated creative people who worked under the idea that if they "build a better mousetrap", they will be able to sell it and finance future creations.

Since the advent of torrenting, fans in the sim community have been able to download all of these third-party software apps for free. It has decimated the market. These independent developers work their asses off and try their best to protect their software, but within a couple day, it is up on the net. These independents are no longer able to bring in the revenue necessary to sustain their creative endeavor, so they stop investing the level of money and time necessary. The market has been decimated. It is a fraction of what it was. Many great ideas and creations will now never see the light of day.

We'd like to think that the internet file sharing will be a big boom for independent creative endeavors, but the reality is that it more often makes it harder to monetize and sustain these creative endeavors. Especially when the file sharing is unauthorized.

More often than not, it is the dedicated little guy who gets shafted.

Evan the Shaggy
08-24-2011, 10:25 AM
It isn't just an abstract textbook stance.

Here is something I posted a while back:


'll give you an example. I am an avid fan of flight simulators. These have been a niche mainstay in the gaming world since the dawn of the PC. Microsoft has been the key supplier of the most common platform and just released the 10th edition a couple years back. Around this platform was an entire industry of 3rd party add-on software. You could do some amazing things with this add-on software that far exceeded the initial scope of the MS product.

The great thing was that these add-ons were often amazing works of art and engineering developed by a few guys working together. It was a whole cottage industry of dedicated creative people who worked under the idea that if they "build a better mousetrap", they will be able to sell it and finance future creations.

Since the advent of torrenting, fans in the sim community have been able to download all of these third-party software apps for free. It has decimated the market. These independent developers work their asses off and try their best to protect their software, but within a couple day, it is up on the net. These independents are no longer able to bring in the revenue necessary to sustain their creative endeavor, so they stop investing the level of money and time necessary. The market has been decimated. It is a fraction of what it was. Many great ideas and creations will now never see the light of day.

We'd like to think that the internet file sharing will be a big boom for independent creative endeavors, but the reality is that it more often makes it harder to monetize and sustain these creative endeavors. Especially when the file sharing is unauthorized.

More often than not, it is the dedicated little guy who gets shafted.


Ok, I know next to nothing about flight sims, but could you post evidence between the direct correlation of pirating and flight sims going under outside of one person's testimony? A study perhaps? Figures? Market analysis?

Masculine Todd
08-24-2011, 11:32 AM
But now think about this independent, up-start flight sim developer who was shut down. Think of how, what they started whenever they started it, is now fairly common and accessible and easy to expand upon. So, you claim it's a deluge of amateur work, but wasn't this developer little more than amateur developers who managed to make some money and fund their stuff? And now, so many people will be able to riff on it, dedfine it or create their own. The line between "pro" and "amateur" begins to blur.

WhindamPryce
08-24-2011, 12:01 PM
But now think about this independent, up-start flight sim developer who was shut down. Think of how, what they started whenever they started it, is now fairly common and accessible and easy to expand upon. So, you claim it's a deluge of amateur work, but wasn't this developer little more than amateur developers who managed to make some money and fund their stuff? And now, so many people will be able to riff on it, dedfine it or create their own. The line between "pro" and "amateur" begins to blur.

I think Randy understands that. He's saying these new upstarts won't be able to monetize it the way pre-torrent developers did. And I'm sure there's a brand new business model somewhere in here, waiting to be implemented. It's just not readily apparent right now, and it definitely won't be one that piracy can't just circumvent anyway.

Masculine Todd
08-24-2011, 05:18 PM
I think Randy understands that. He's saying these new upstarts won't be able to monetize it the way pre-torrent developers did. And I'm sure there's a brand new business model somewhere in here, waiting to be implemented. It's just not readily apparent right now, and it definitely won't be one that piracy can't just circumvent anyway.

Of course upstarts won't monetize their product/art in pre-filing sharing manner. Good. That model is clearly archaic and, in many cases, creatively oppressive. Ideally, something better and more adaptable takes its place, and the best part is that, with so many DIY artists trying different things, there could be several efficient models that net money. I think we've seen some successes that show readily apparent ways of generating revenue with your work.

Stark Raving
08-24-2011, 05:20 PM
Of course upstarts won't monetize their product/art in pre-filing sharing manner. Good. That model is clearly archaic and, in many cases, creatively oppressive. Ideally, something better and more adaptable takes its place, and the best part is that, with so many DIY artists trying different things, there could be several efficient models that net money. I think we've seen some successes that show readily apparent ways of generating revenue with your work.
Webcomics are a good example.