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View Full Version : Mark Millar on leaving Marvel and the DC reboot: DC in a massive desperation?



Andrew
06-20-2011, 10:30 AM
Exclusive: Mark Millar on DC Reboot

Question: With Marvel announcing a plan to kill off a major character every month and DC relaunching their entire line, is there a lack of good creativity and writing in the medium at the moment and is it indicative of increasingly reductive sensationalism and events in comics?

Mark Millar: Definitely. There's no doubt about it. The beginning of the end was in 2006-7. When I did Civil War for Marvel, the sales were about 2 and a half times what they expected, and Marvel were like, "oh, let's go back to the bad old days!" and DC were like "let's copy them!".

And so it was being engineered really by accounts again. That's kinda what killed comics for a while in the 1990s, the early nineties, that things were event driven instead of being story driven. I mean it's a boom bust cycle, it's the way it always goes: in the 1990s it collapsed and then Marvel bid thoroughly in the early noughties, started having good writers and good artists or good characters and made it work, and they built it up over 5-6 years.

But I understand how it works, because quarterly they're accountable to their bosses and they look at what worked in the last quarter – "that big crossover with everyone in it? Let's do another one next quarter", you know? And eventually it is so reductive. The event isn't an event if it's happening all the time.

It's great for guys like us, because I left Marvel two weeks ago, after ten years, to focus entirely on creator owned. All the higher profile creators are heading off now doing their own thing. The smaller personalities are hanging around a little bit. For a few years this will probably be the case, writing and drawing things and then editorial are shaping the stories because they have a financial quarterly, they need to hit a certain number.

It's just the cycle of comics. The same thing happened twenty years ago and twenty years before that. That will wear out and then everything will change again. But unfortunately for Marvel and DC, they're in that kind of boring period just now.

And at DC it seems that there's a massive desperation, they're relaunching their entire line right now in September, all in one month. And I said, why didn't you guys just roll it out over a year so that everybody gets a chance to buy, you know, try out the first issues? And they said, we're actually more accountable to Warner Brothers now than we've ever been before – we need to show some serious profit.

Question: Now that you've left Marvel, are you tempted to join DC? It's no secret that you are a huge Superman fan.

Mark Millar: It's a tricky one because if you're a fan of something, sometimes it's really alluring, the idea of going and doing it. But then, I love the Clangers, I love the Wombles, I like the Mr Men, but I don't want to write them! I like them existing, I love it as part of my life, my childhood especially, but the idea of doing back and doing it... I don't know, I feel that ship has sailed. Even two years ago I think it would have been a wee bit different but I just feel the exciting stuff that's happening just now is creator owned. Something like Kick-Ass is the most fun I've ever had writing anything and I could never get away with doing something like that at DC, I'd feel as if I was wearing a straightjacket. Dealing with corporate culture, everything that I wanted to stop doing at Marvel is ten times worse with DC.
Full interview at the link: http://www.comicbookgrrrl.com/2011/06/19/exclusive-mark-millar-on-dc-reboot/

The part about DC being in a "massive desperation" really stood out to me. It's no secret that Millar is known to exaggerate, but there's probably a good discussion to be had about this, with regards to DC apparently having to be more accountable to Warner Bros. than ever now. One has to wonder what the future will hold.

Ray G.
06-20-2011, 10:32 AM
Why is a line-wide reboot desperation? They're actually cutting their books down a bit overall.

Also, given that it all results out of the events of Flashpoint, it wouldn't make much sense for it to happen slowly.

Ryudo
06-20-2011, 10:33 AM
I'm gonna miss him writing Marvel stuff.

Andrew
06-20-2011, 10:35 AM
Why is a line-wide reboot desperation? They're actually cutting their books down a bit overall.

Also, given that it all results out of the events of Flashpoint, it wouldn't make much sense for it to happen slowly.

I'd assume it's directly linked to them apparently being held more accountable to Warner Bros. now. If that's the case, we could be seeing some big changes in the next few years.

Adrian B AWESOME
06-20-2011, 10:39 AM
Yeah! Things suck, not like those Civil War days where it was all sunshine lollipops!

Brad N.
06-20-2011, 10:41 AM
He does make a few good points. Marvel has made it really easy to drop most of their books with their price gouging. It also doesn't help them that they constantly reboot, kill off characters or change them into women, and go from one lame massive event to the next.

RickLM
06-20-2011, 10:41 AM
I've never agreed with Millar more. The whole DC relaunch thing screams desperation, and not least of all because they kinda went down this road before and it flopped. I see Didio taking another run up the One Year Later hill with this effort and just kind of slapping it together in a hurry and I have to wonder what kind of quality control will be there.

Kefky
06-20-2011, 10:43 AM
Well, he isn't wrong, but suddenly acting like he's never been a part of the problem is pretty silly of him.

Slewo.O
06-20-2011, 10:45 AM
Well, he isn't wrong, but suddenly acting like he's never been a part of the problem is pretty silly of him.

Exactly. He makes good points but it's kind of hard not to think about what he had to do with it.

TIP
06-20-2011, 10:45 AM
Yeah! Things suck, not like those Civil War days where it was all sunshine lollipops!

Boom! :lol:

Mwstattel
06-20-2011, 10:47 AM
Yeah! Things suck, not like those Civil War days where it was all sunshine lollipops!

O-VER-RATE-ED!! *Clap Clap Clapclapclap*

Dark Sasha
06-20-2011, 10:49 AM
It's gonnnnnna be grate, ya know.

Andrew
06-20-2011, 10:50 AM
I've never agreed with Millar more. The whole DC relaunch thing screams desperation, and not least of all because they kinda went down this road before and it flopped. I see Didio taking another run up the One Year Later hill with this effort and just kind of slapping it together in a hurry and I have to wonder what kind of quality control will be there.

Agreed.

modungo
06-20-2011, 10:56 AM
I've never agreed with Millar more. The whole DC relaunch thing screams desperation, and not least of all because they kinda went down this road before and it flopped. I see Didio taking another run up the One Year Later hill with this effort and just kind of slapping it together in a hurry and I have to wonder what kind of quality control will be there.

Nevermind! I should read the whole thing first!

Adrian B AWESOME
06-20-2011, 10:56 AM
It's not like the days when Millar was revolutionizing comics with The Unfunnies and Trouble!

Matt Jay
06-20-2011, 10:58 AM
He makes some good points. Sad to hear that he's giving up on Superman. He would be the best thing that could happen to the character, but I don't see DC giving him free reign anytime soon.

Mwstattel
06-20-2011, 10:58 AM
It's not like the days when Millar was revolutionizing comics with The Unfunnies and Trouble!

Or wowing us with such masterpieces like Nemesis.

Adrian B AWESOME
06-20-2011, 10:58 AM
And by creator-owned, does he mean he'll continue ripping-off Matt Wagner stories?

Slewo.O
06-20-2011, 10:59 AM
He makes some good points. Sad to hear that he's giving up on Superman. He would be the best thing that could happen to the character, but I don't see DC giving him free reign anytime soon.

Well considering Morrison writes such as second-rate Superman. :shifty:

Adrian B AWESOME
06-20-2011, 10:59 AM
I mean, it would be one thing if Millar wasn't constantly trumpeting himself as God's gift to the medium, but since he does, I don't feel as bad calling out his bullshit, like he's going to read it and care anyways.

Buk Was Right
06-20-2011, 11:00 AM
This interview has already been optioned for a movie.

TIP
06-20-2011, 11:00 AM
And by creator-owned, does he mean he'll continue ripping-off Matt Wagner stories?

Boom Twice!

Adrian B AWESOME
06-20-2011, 11:00 AM
Well considering Morrison writes such as second-rate Superman. :shifty:

Thought the same thing.

Mwstattel
06-20-2011, 11:00 AM
And by creator-owned, does he mean he'll continue ripping-off Matt Wagner stories?

He probably means he'll start and not finish more limited series but still manage to work in a gratuitous dick shot.

Mwstattel
06-20-2011, 11:02 AM
I mean, it would be one thing if Millar wasn't constantly trumpeting himself as God's gift to the medium, but since he does, I don't feel as bad calling out his bullshit, like he's going to read it and care anyways.

That sounds boom worthy to me but I don't want to step on anyone's toes.

Humphrey_Lee
06-20-2011, 11:13 AM
Desperation? No. Does it smack of how much the suits have control on the publishing line now? Absolutely. This thing is an obvious "retaliation" to the success of Marvel's movie line, i.e. they were hoping GL would be a big success and use that as a springboard into new property jaunts and a revamped comic line for people to hop right into. First half of that just went to hell this past weekend. But from a suit perspective a move like this makes perfect sense, and in a way I agree and understand. I still don't get the concept of corporate coming in and trying to make these publishing lines more profitable though. Yes, businesses hate to lose money, obviously, but when you're a multi-billion dollar company that is making hundreds of millions in licensing and movie/television productions based off of properties you own, why you care if your publishing line - your first line in getting people initiated to your properties, creating new ones, and keeping your copyrights up - increases profitability is beyond me. Get as many people as you can in on floor level, no matter what the cost (well, within reason) and play the game out over time. The $2.99 line is great, but not cheap enough, and the revamp I understand, but it's hamfisted. This is what happens when the true suits start taking over though.

Andrew
06-20-2011, 11:20 AM
This interview has already been optioned for a movie.

:lol:

Artie Pink
06-20-2011, 11:27 AM
Yeah! Things suck, not like those Civil War days where it was all sunshine lollipops!

I question your reading comprehension skills. He goes on to imply that Civil War led to a return to the "bad old days".

Artie Pink
06-20-2011, 11:30 AM
And by creator-owned, does he mean he'll continue ripping-off Matt Wagner stories?


And are you gonna keep ripping of my Grendel/Nemesis rip?


A more modern rip could be "And by creator-owned, does he mean he'll continue to be propped up by that little indie company, Marvel's Icon?"

But I don't wanna write your jokes for you, man.

Artie Pink
06-20-2011, 11:32 AM
It's not like the days when Millar was revolutionizing comics with The Unfunnies and Trouble!

This one, however... yikes. This is so cold I turned off the airconditioning!

Adrian B AWESOME
06-20-2011, 11:33 AM
And are you gonna keep ripping of my Grendel/Nemesis rip?


A more modern rip could be "And by creator-owned, does he mean he'll continue to be propped up by that little indie company, Marvel's Icon?"

But I don't wanna write your jokes for you, man.

You're hardly the first to note the similarities. Get your hate on!

Artie Pink
06-20-2011, 11:34 AM
I'd like just once to agree with Millar without him throwing in some obnoxiousness about himself. He should be edited out of his own soundbytes, like that Phantom Menace edit without Jar Jar Binks.

Artie Pink
06-20-2011, 11:35 AM
You're hardly the first to note the similarities. Get your hate on!
Show me who did it before me. I did it the day of the announcement.

(you can waste your summer day investigating or just concede - up to you!)

Matt Jay
06-20-2011, 11:35 AM
Well considering Morrison writes such as second-rate Superman. :shifty:

He doesn't write one that I want to read. Millar killed on Red Son and I'm sure he could do better if he were permitted to give Superman a personality.

Cactusakic
06-20-2011, 11:38 AM
This interview has already been optioned for a movie.

Genuine :lol:

Adrian B AWESOME
06-20-2011, 11:41 AM
Show me who did it before me. I did it the day of the announcement.

(you can waste your summer day investigating or just concede - up to you!)

I'll concede, sure, as I truly don't care. Defending Mark Millar is apparently something Jim feels strongly about.

Edit: Well, I can't say I don't care, as clearly I do...I'll say it ultimately doesn't matter though.

Artie Pink
06-20-2011, 11:44 AM
I'll concede, sure, as I truly don't care. Defending Mark Millar is apparently something Jim feels strongly about.

I bashed him in post #32 above! I don't have strong feelings either way, but at least I have genuine ones - not just auto-bashing. Don't get me wrong, I find it funny. But I think you've forgotten your own joke. Happens to a lot of people.

Andrew
06-20-2011, 11:55 AM
This one, however... yikes. This is so cold I turned off the airconditioning!

:lol:

dEnny!
06-20-2011, 11:58 AM
Why is a line-wide reboot desperation? They're actually cutting their books down a bit overall.

Also, given that it all results out of the events of Flashpoint, it wouldn't make much sense for it to happen slowly.

It reeks of desperation.

TheKraken
06-20-2011, 12:01 PM
His self-aggrandizing shtick is so tired. But not having to worry about Millar writing some bullshit like Tony Stark making a deranged Thor clone or revealing that Norman Osborn is the secret head of an eeeev-eeeeel government conspiracy to fund supervillains again is really awesome news.

BenC (formerly Ape-X)
06-20-2011, 12:02 PM
.

BenC (formerly Ape-X)
06-20-2011, 12:03 PM
This interview has already been optioned for a movie.

Buk continues to weave message board gold! :)

Buk Was Right
06-20-2011, 12:29 PM
Buk continues to weave message board gold! :)

Y'know, I'm glad SOMEONE noticed that I've been killing it lately.

JoshBrown
06-20-2011, 12:32 PM
If what Millar says about WB coming down on DC is true, then DC is in a pretty bad spot. Because then it's no longer about making comic and telling stories, it's about the "bottom line."

Jef UK
06-20-2011, 12:42 PM
If what Millar says about WB coming down on DC is true, then DC is in a pretty bad spot. Because then it's no longer about making comic and telling stories, it's about the "bottom line."

It's always been both.

Buk Was Right
06-20-2011, 12:45 PM
If what Millar says about WB coming down on DC is true, then DC is in a pretty bad spot. Because then it's no longer about making comic and telling stories, it's about the "bottom line."

It has ALWAYS been about the bottom line. At least in the recent past.

These people are not here to delight you. They are here to get paid.

Of COURSE there are people involved who want to delight you and give you that wide eyed sense of wonder, but those people don't sit in the big fucking office and those people don't make the BIG decisions.

Also the Easter Bunny is a lie.

Spidey616
06-20-2011, 12:57 PM
Say, whatever happened to Superior and Kick-Ass 2? Seems like forever since the last issues came out

DaveCummings
06-20-2011, 01:08 PM
Say, whatever happened to Superior and Kick-Ass 2? Seems like forever since the last issues came out

Superior is on hold until Leinil finishes Ultimate Avengers vs New Ultimates.

A.Huerta
06-20-2011, 01:15 PM
Red Son and Ultimates are still one of my favorite mainstream books of the last decade. He can say whatever he wants.

DaveCummings
06-20-2011, 01:17 PM
Red Son and Ultimates are still one of my favorite mainstream books of the last decade. He can say whatever he wants.
True. Though Mark Millar now doesn't seem like the Mark Millar that created those books. Of course, it could be argued that Red Son had some help from Grant Morrison (they were working closely together at the time and Grant helped write the ending)

thatguyfromsyracuse
06-20-2011, 01:23 PM
He does make a few good points. Marvel has made it really easy to drop most of their books with their price gouging. It also doesn't help them that they constantly reboot, kill off characters or change them into women, and go from one lame massive event to the next.

I really don't think you can call it price gouging.

Adrian B AWESOME
06-20-2011, 01:26 PM
Yeah, Guy in NY is right. The market pays for it, and if they were $2, I doubt you'd see a sharp increase in unit sales.

ilash
06-20-2011, 01:27 PM
Wow, I would really take this seriously if this wasn't, ya know, by the writer of Civil War and Wanted. "Lack of creativity" and "desperation"... yeah, OK, Mr Millar, whatever you say.

Akira
06-20-2011, 01:35 PM
I haven't been up on all the news lately, is Marvel really planning on killing a character a month or is this just more Millar hyperbole?

Sent from my Droid Incredible using Jinxworld

Jef UK
06-20-2011, 01:38 PM
In the latest episode of Word Balloon, Jeff Lemire claims that the shift in attitude at DC has been amazing, giving writers more freedom to tell the stories they want to tell, given the reboot.

Jef UK
06-20-2011, 01:39 PM
I haven't been up on all the news lately, is Marvel really planning on killing a character a month or is this just more Millar hyperbole?

Sent from my Droid Incredible using Jinxworld

Someone at Marvel made that joke at a Retailers Summit last year, irrc, and the comic blog media was up in arms!

TheKraken
06-20-2011, 01:40 PM
I haven't been up on all the news lately, is Marvel really planning on killing a character a month or is this just more Millar hyperbole?

Sent from my Droid Incredible using Jinxworld

Some one joked about killing a character every quarter awhile back. Many people took it as fact. The interviewer may have been trying to be funny. I hope so, at least.

Buk Was Right
06-20-2011, 01:40 PM
Red Son and Ultimates are still one of my favorite mainstream books of the last decade. He can say whatever he wants.

Belief like this is how things like Dark Knight 2 happen.

TIP
06-20-2011, 01:46 PM
In the latest episode of Word Balloon, Jeff Lemire claims that the shift in attitude at DC has been amazing, giving writers more freedom to tell the stories they want to tell, given the reboot.

Oooo.

Slewo.O
06-20-2011, 01:49 PM
He doesn't write one that I want to read. Millar killed on Red Son and I'm sure he could do better if he were permitted to give Superman a personality.

Millar does write personalities. Just not particularly sympathetic ones. :)

Slewo.O
06-20-2011, 01:51 PM
I haven't been up on all the news lately, is Marvel really planning on killing a character a month or is this just more Millar hyperbole?

Sent from my Droid Incredible using Jinxworld

The joke is supposed to go every quarter. So far it's held true,

Slewo.O
06-20-2011, 01:51 PM
Oooo.

But what does he know? He works at DC! He probably has a jellyfish on his brain!

Jonathan Callan
06-20-2011, 01:52 PM
Someone at Marvel made that joke at a Retailers Summit last year, irrc, and the comic blog media was up in arms!

But it was a character every quarter, not a character every month. That's some bad journalism, honestly. Get your facts straight before you editorialize.

Brad N.
06-20-2011, 02:00 PM
I really don't think you can call it price gouging.

Sure you can. Marvel is fleecing their customers by charging a dollar more on most titles for no reason. I don't really wish to have this debate for the hundredth time but I have yet to see a legit explanation for $4 comics still.

Jef UK
06-20-2011, 02:04 PM
Oooo.

I'm excited for his Animal Man and Frankenstein books.

The Robot Lord of Tokyo
06-20-2011, 02:05 PM
I liked Millar better when he was having all his characters calling everyone "meatball".

Jef UK
06-20-2011, 02:06 PM
Sure you can. Marvel is fleecing their customers by charging a dollar more on most titles for no reason. I don't really wish to have this debate for the hundredth time but I have yet to see a legit explanation for $4 comics still.

How do you rationalize DC removing pages of content in every book to hold the line at $3.00 if you don't think there's a relationship between rising costs in everything and the rising cost of comic books?

Also, "price gouging" is an economic term that applies to necessities of life.

NickT
06-20-2011, 02:07 PM
With Marvel announcing a plan to kill off a major character every month
The comment was quarter not month, and wasn't serious in the first place.

Brad N.
06-20-2011, 02:19 PM
How do you rationalize DC removing pages of content in every book to hold the line at $3.00 if you don't think there's a relationship between rising costs in everything and the rising cost of comic books?

Also, "price gouging" is an economic term that applies to necessities of life.

That isn't what price gouging means. The definition is exactly what I say they are doing. A retailer marking the price of their goods up above what is considered fair. Shall I link to Wiki or Dictionary.com?

Myk
06-20-2011, 02:33 PM
That isn't what price gouging means. The definition is exactly what I say they are doing. A retailer marking the price of their goods up above what is considered fair. Shall I link to Wiki or Dictionary.com?

Then what's the definition of "fair"?

Brad N.
06-20-2011, 02:39 PM
Then what's the definition of "fair"?

Dude, I believe charging $4 a pop for most comics is unfair. My opinion, and nothing I have seen has led me to believe it is necessary to hike the price up 33% so quickly. You are free to disagree with my opinion and that's cool, but my use of the term price gouging more than fit the definition.

Ray G.
06-20-2011, 02:39 PM
How do you rationalize DC removing pages of content in every book to hold the line at $3.00 if you don't think there's a relationship between rising costs in everything and the rising cost of comic books?

Also, "price gouging" is an economic term that applies to necessities of life.

Marvel is removing content from their $2.99 books too. The majority have been 20 pages for a few months now.

Their 22 page books are still $3.99, though.

Jef UK
06-20-2011, 02:40 PM
That isn't what price gouging means. The definition is exactly what I say they are doing. A retailer marking the price of their goods up above what is considered fair. Shall I link to Wiki or Dictionary.com?

By all means, link to Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_gouging


In precise, legal usage, it is the name of a crime that applies in some of the United States during civil emergencies


The term is not in widespread use in mainstream economic theory [...]


Price gouging may be charged when a supplier of essential goods or services sharply raises the prices asked in anticipation of or during a civil emergency, or when it cancels or dishonors contracts in order to take advantage of an increase in prices related to such an emergency

I don't think your colloquial usage has much meaning. Marvel isn't a retailer either.

Myk
06-20-2011, 02:49 PM
Dude, I believe charging $4 a pop for most comics is unfair. My opinion, and nothing I have seen has led me to believe it is necessary to hike the price up 33% so quickly. You are free to disagree with my opinion and that's cool, but my use of the term price gouging more than fit the definition.

Hey I hate paying high prices too. But nothing I have seen makes me think a pair of athletic shoes should cost more than $30 either. But people pay it.

Hell, given how corporations work, I see more evidence for the necessity of the price increase in comics than anything else. Costs are rising or staying the same, but less people are buying as is, no matter what marketing of creative initiatives are implemented. So only option is to raise prices and hope the people staying are going to be okay with paying a little more.

The only evidence I see are decreasing numbers according to Diamond, which while they might not be accurate, the strugglings and closings of LCSs all over are indicative that the numbers aren't good. Who knows, all this could mean is that maybe Comic company executive X will now only be able to buy two Bentleys instead of three this Christmas, but from what I know publishing is a razor thin profit margin industry.

Jef UK
06-20-2011, 02:49 PM
I don't understand how a leisure activity can fall victim to price gouging. Price gouging doesn't make sense when nobody has to buy the goods or services in question AND when consumers can buy the exact same material and competitors' materiel at lower prices.

Brad N.
06-20-2011, 02:51 PM
By all means, link to Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_gouging

I don't think your colloquial usage has much meaning. Marvel isn't a retailer either.

Why don't you quote the opening paragraph? My usage fits the definition.

Buk Was Right
06-20-2011, 02:56 PM
MOAR ARGUING ABOUT WORD DEFINITIONS!l

Raphael J
06-20-2011, 02:56 PM
Why don't you quote the opening paragraph? My usage fits the definition.


Price gouging is a pejorative term referring to a situation in which a seller prices goods or commodities much higher than is considered reasonable or fair. In precise, legal usage, it is the name of a crime that applies in some of the United States during civil emergencies. In less precise usage, it can refer either to prices obtained by practices inconsistent with a competitive free market, or to windfall profits. In the Soviet Union, it was simply included under the single definition of speculation.

Well, it isn't being priced higher than is considered reasonable or fair. Arguably, if it were then you would see consumers purchasing more competitively priced books in greater numbers. From what little I've seen in the market, you aren't seeing that. In fact, DC's numbers are lower (attribute it to a low-selling Flashpoint if you'd like, but that'd be a stretch). The reason price gouging isn't primarily used in goods that aren't necessities is because the price increases and consumers aren't able to go elsewhere to meet the need. Marvel is pricing their product at a level that allows them to potentially sell fewer books and still retain similar profits. Nothing inconsistent with other market practices, which have similarly priced books.

Sorry boss, but you're wrong in your usage here.

Brad N.
06-20-2011, 02:58 PM
I am not having this discussion again. I believe Marvel is charging too much for their comics for no reason other than to get as much from their readers as they can before the paper printed medium dies. Rather than implement innovative ideas and market to places other than specialty shops and the tiny number of people who buy their product they decided to take the lazy path and Jack up prices to ridiculous levels for no reason.

You of course are free to disagree and it's really not a big deal to me. My wallet is happier. But yeah, I will not discuss it further. Go back to making fun of Millard.

Myk
06-20-2011, 03:01 PM
Why don't you quote the opening paragraph? My usage fits the definition.

Still doesn't, unless your definition of "fair" is different from what is determined by the free market, as opposed to what you or I happen to have in our wallets.

Hey, I'm with you. But I also understand the possibility that Marvel has a reason for doing something as drastic as raising prices other than making a proportionate amount of pure profit. And even if they did, that the exploration of doing that is how capitalism works.

Andrew j
06-20-2011, 03:02 PM
Millar is a great salesman but I wish he didn't have to take a page out of Erik Larsen's "bash the competition to get attention" playbook. It's just lazy.

Brad N.
06-20-2011, 03:03 PM
Damn auto correct. That should be Millar not for Viking great (Keith) Millard.

Andrew j
06-20-2011, 03:05 PM
I thought you wanted me to discuss president filmore.

Buk Was Right
06-20-2011, 03:05 PM
A company charging a price that (most) people are willing to pay to maximize their profits?

NOW I'VE HEARD EVERYTHING!

Myk
06-20-2011, 03:07 PM
I am not having this discussion again. I believe Marvel is charging too much for their comics for no reason other than to get as much from their readers as they can before the paper printed medium dies. Rather than implement innovative ideas and market to places other than specialty shops and the tiny number of people who buy their product they decided to take the lazy path and Jack up prices to ridiculous levels for no reason.

You of course are free to disagree and it's really not a big deal to me. My wallet is happier. But yeah, I will not discuss it further. Go back to making fun of Millard.

Honestly, over the years I think they pulled all kinds of stupid things from their hats to stem the bleeding of readers long before they jacked up prices. People have been saying stuff like "my wallet is happier" in response to events and variant covers and other tactics. At a certain point of continuing to lose customers (and making so many wallets happy) you have very few options left.

I'm also pretty sure that if there's an innovative idea like marketing in places other than comic stores, it's already been explored by the people who would profit most from such an idea.

Jef UK
06-20-2011, 03:07 PM
Why don't you quote the opening paragraph? My usage fits the definition.

My quote is the second sentence in the opening paragraph, which the rest of the entire article precedes to discuss. I don't understand what is to be gained in the argument by promoting the rather meaningless, colloquial usage, since, again "the term is not in widespread use in mainstream economic theory." Then you have to hinge your argument on what is "much higher than what is considered reasonable or fair," and I think you've sort of de facto lost that one already, given the elasticity of the free market as regards leisure goods.

Raphael J
06-20-2011, 03:09 PM
I am not having this discussion again. I believe Marvel is charging too much for their comics for no reason other than to get as much from their readers as they can before the paper printed medium dies. Rather than implement innovative ideas and market to places other than specialty shops and the tiny number of people who buy their product they decided to take the lazy path and Jack up prices to ridiculous levels for no reason.

You of course are free to disagree and it's really not a big deal to me. My wallet is happier. But yeah, I will not discuss it further. Go back to making fun of Millard.

You can believe they're charging too much, but "jacking up prices to ridiculous levels" isn't what's happening. People are still buying the books. Consumers are using disposable income to support their hobby. You can have your opinion on the quality of the book and how much that quality is worth, but you get into crazy talk territory when you take such an accusatory tone.

Also, if we're following your logic, Marvel is "jack[ing] up [their] prices to ridiculous levels" to "get as much from [the] readers" before print dies, not "for no reason." Even Glenn Beck puts his arguments together better than that.

Jef UK
06-20-2011, 03:13 PM
MOAR ARGUING ABOUT WORD DEFINITIONS!l

Evolution is just a theory!

SeanC
06-20-2011, 05:36 PM
Mark Millar says a lot of things.

Humphrey_Lee
06-20-2011, 05:40 PM
I really don't think you can call it price gouging.

Taking prices up a third while you have a significant market advantage could be argued as gouging. Probably not, but could be. I think it will backfire on them eventually (for the long-term good of the industry despite the short-term drop) so yeah, there's all that to not really have a point on my end... =)

Caley Tibbittz
06-20-2011, 05:47 PM
Taking prices up a third while you have a significant market advantage could be argued as gouging. Probably not, but could be. I think it will backfire on them eventually (for the long-term good of the industry despite the short-term drop) so yeah, there's all that to not really have a point on my end... =)
All I know is I can't afford it. It's a big part of why I don't try many new books. The other part being that most corporate comics are pointless rushed hack work to keep trademarks alive. There are a lot of stories being really that no one really cares about telling.

Humphrey_Lee
06-20-2011, 05:48 PM
How do you rationalize DC removing pages of content in every book to hold the line at $3.00 if you don't think there's a relationship between rising costs in everything and the rising cost of comic books?

Also, "price gouging" is an economic term that applies to necessities of life.

This is the kind of stuff that makes me really wish I had a better break down of costs in the industry. DC cut 2 pages to keep the prices the same, Marvel is more or less getting the price of half their line to $4 to keep the page count the same. Assuming what I would about costs, the 2 page cut seems like the far more reasonable concession over what they save in costs than the price increase. Especially considering the success of Marvel Entertainment in the movie arena, which I would have to assume is bleeding down into the operating costs of the comic division. Without a full breakdown though - which I never found when I was writing my MBA Final on Marvel - this would all be speculation though. The fleecing thing might be a little hyperbolic, but the frustration behind it as a fanbase and, in my case, as someone who has been trying real hard the past year to analyze the industry as the business it is with a fans eyes, kind of deserves the ire the word "fleecing" commands.

We all agree that prices on comics are getting a bit insane for what they are with an issue that unless sales go up in some way - whether it be additional revenue coming from a dedicated fanbase, an increase in the fanbase's numbers, or a combination of the two. Marvel is in the prime position to be the one to spearhead initiatives to do both given their current market share and the buzz around the company given the success of their movie properties. Instead, they raise prices and kind of leave it that. It really is frustrating as hell...

TIP
06-20-2011, 05:50 PM
But what does he know? He works at DC! He probably has a jellyfish on his brain!

:lol:

As long as it's not in his bathtub with Will Smith...

Spidey616
06-20-2011, 06:00 PM
More Trouble! ;)

http://www.lost-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Ult-Comics-Avengers-Millar-Self-Diss.jpg

Arion
06-20-2011, 06:04 PM
I'm gonna miss him writing Marvel stuff.

Hopefully he'll return in the future.

Big Poot!
06-20-2011, 06:28 PM
DC Reboot - This Looks Good! (http://forums.millarworld.tv/index.php?/topic/97884-dc-reboot/) A thread created by Millar himself. Calm down fanboys, no one is name calling your preciously lame Batman.

Buk Was Right
06-20-2011, 06:36 PM
Awwwwwwwwww shit!

All y'all DC fans just got POOTED!

TIP
06-20-2011, 06:48 PM
Awwwwwwwwww shit!

All y'all DC fans just got POOTED!

:lol:

Also:

"preciously lame Batman" = :lol:!!!

TIP
06-20-2011, 06:49 PM
DC Reboot - This Looks Good! (http://forums.millarworld.tv/index.php?/topic/97884-dc-reboot/) A thread created by Millar himself. Calm down fanboys, no one is name calling your preciously lame Batman.

So he says one thing there and another thing elsewhere. Hmm.

Big Poot!
06-20-2011, 06:51 PM
Awwwwwwwwww shit!

All y'all DC fans just got POOTED!

That's right, I just Pooted...YOUR MOM!

(How's that for witty?)

Buk Was Right
06-20-2011, 06:52 PM
That's right, I just Pooted...YOUR MOM!

(How's that for witty?)

For most people, not good. But for you it might be an all time high water mark.

Big Poot!
06-20-2011, 06:53 PM
For most people, not good. But for you it might be an all time high water mark.

Do you even know what Poot means?

Or anyone for that matter?

Slewo.O
06-20-2011, 06:54 PM
That's right, I just Pooted...YOUR MOM!

(How's that for witty?)

Yeah well I'm gonna take your mom, the lovely Mrs. Poot around town for a nice seafood dinner... And never call back!!! :mad:

TIP
06-20-2011, 06:56 PM
Do you even know what Poot means?

Or anyone for that matter?

"The Poot" is a 40-min. documentary film by Flatulent Elham Asadi about Persian carpet.


:lol:

Buk Was Right
06-20-2011, 06:59 PM
Do you even know what Poot means?

Or anyone for that matter?

Like many things in popular usage it has adapted into whatever fits the situation so while to YOU it's probably a funny funny euphemism for a fart or whatever to ME it's when you breeze into a thread and drop some pseudo-knowledge that's supposed be a sweet slam and show us all what's up. Either way it's about hot air escaping into the world where it's probably not welcome or appreciated.

Big Poot!
06-20-2011, 07:00 PM
Non-interesting guess there Tippy.

I'll give all a clue:

You sure you want to know?It starts with a "D" and ends with an "ICK!"

Ya'll just got POOTED!!!

TIP
06-20-2011, 07:04 PM
http://www.arearugsclub.com/blog/images/Poot-persian-carpet-LRG.jpg

Briomega
06-20-2011, 07:05 PM
You just got TIPped!

Ryan_ZOOM_Turner
06-20-2011, 07:07 PM
MOAR ARGUING ABOUT WORD DEFINITIONS!l

:rock:

TIP
06-20-2011, 07:08 PM
We should all stay up-to-date on all rug-related documentaries. This is important. Very impootant, Loom-Man.

Big Poot!
06-20-2011, 07:08 PM
Well, it took 1,833 posts, but I finally revealed the "BIG POOT!" as my girlfriend dubbed it.

I don't know which is the more shocking revelation: that Millar likes writing indy comics, or that the Buckster just got shamefully Pooted, and the Tipster got, well, just the Tip!

Either way, between Millar or myself, it's just a Dick slinging contest.

Ryan_ZOOM_Turner
06-20-2011, 07:10 PM
You can believe they're charging too much, but "jacking up prices to ridiculous levels" isn't what's happening. People are still buying the books. Consumers are using disposable income to support their hobby. You can have your opinion on the quality of the book and how much that quality is worth, but you get into crazy talk territory when you take such an accusatory tone.

Also, if we're following your logic, Marvel is "jack[ing] up [their] prices to ridiculous levels" to "get as much from [the] readers" before print dies, not "for no reason." Even Glenn Beck puts his arguments together better than that.

Awesome

Briomega
06-20-2011, 07:10 PM
Well, it took 1,833 posts, but I finally revealed the "BIG POOT!" as my girlfriend dubbed it.

I don't know which is the more shocking revelation: that Millar likes writing indy comics, or that the Buckster just got shamefully Pooted, and the Tipster got, well, just the Tip!

Either way, between Millar or myself, it's just a Dick slinging contest.

Pretty sure your girlfriend said your dick is stinky.

bkiel
06-20-2011, 07:11 PM
It's called personal hygiene. Try it.

Ryan_ZOOM_Turner
06-20-2011, 07:12 PM
"The Poot" is a 40-min. documentary film by Flatulent Elham Asadi about Persian carpet.

:lol:

:rofl:

TIP
06-20-2011, 07:13 PM
Well, it took 1,833 posts, but I finally revealed the "BIG POOT!" as my girlfriend dubbed it.

I don't know which is the more shocking revelation: that Millar likes writing indy comics, or that the Buckster just got shamefully Pooted, and the Tipster got, well, just the Tip!

Either way, between Millar or myself, it's just a Dick slinging contest.

:lol:!!!

You told us, Rug!

Buk Was Right
06-20-2011, 07:13 PM
Pretty sure your girlfriend said your dick is stinky.

Technically what she said was that MINE smelled better.

Take that however you will. Because that's how I took her.

Big Poot!
06-20-2011, 07:14 PM
I did secretly think it was funny hearing so many guys here that LOVED saying my name "Big Poot!" Buk, Tip, and others. Strange when you think about it.

TIP
06-20-2011, 07:18 PM
Sadly, this particular 'Rug' doesn't really tie the room together.

Thanks to the Water Sports.

Adrian B AWESOME
06-20-2011, 07:19 PM
Get it Rug!

Magnum V.I.
06-20-2011, 07:19 PM
Damn Buk! You just got Dicked!! In the Butt!! On the internet!!!

GO TO WWW.BUKLOVESPOOTS.COM!!!


LOL!!!

Big Poot!
06-20-2011, 07:20 PM
How's my new signature look? I have signatures turned off, so can't see.

Ryan_ZOOM_Turner
06-20-2011, 07:20 PM
damn buk! You just got dicked!! In the butt!! On the internet!!!

Go to www.buklovespoots.com!!!

Lol!!!

:lol: !!

TIP
06-20-2011, 07:26 PM
http://www.imageenvision.com/150/23254-clip-art-graphic-of-a-rolled-green-carpet-cartoon-character-flexing-his-arm-muscles-by-toons4biz.jpg

Buk Was Right
06-20-2011, 07:28 PM
Sorry guys. That's my bad. I should know better than to feed these people.

Back to Malarky's bold declarations please.

Big Poot!
06-20-2011, 07:32 PM
Sorry guys. That's my bad. I should know better than to feed these people.

Back to Malarky's bold declarations please.

For shaaaaaame. :lol:

SAVETHEB
06-20-2011, 07:45 PM
Mark Millar is my favorite writer (since BKV doesn't anymore)

Jonathan Callan
06-21-2011, 02:21 AM
Say he's right. Up and coming creators, pay attention. It takes ten years to break into comics. By Millar's estimates, we're just ten years away from the next big thing -- a time like the early 2000s where everything the same is different again and you can be wild and break rules, ten years away from a new creative renaissance like Vertigo or Marvel under Quesada...

...and I mean this with all due respect to the creators I love, the creators that built an industry I want to be a part of, many of whom are doing the work of their careers right now...

...rejoice. If you wanna be next up at bat, things are going your way.

Foolish Mortal
06-21-2011, 04:20 AM
Question: With Marvel announcing a plan to kill off a major character every month
I thought Marvel said that was joke?

Matt Jay
06-21-2011, 06:17 AM
I thought Marvel said that was joke?

It was once every quarter. Marvel said it's a joke, but so far it's been happening.

Adrian B AWESOME
06-21-2011, 06:24 AM
If superheroes were real, they'd be dying every day. Don't see the big deal.

TIP
06-21-2011, 06:25 AM
If superheroes were real, they'd be dying every day. Don't see the big deal.

And if superheroes were Rugs I'd prefer Shag.

Greygor
06-21-2011, 06:28 AM
Is it worth reading back through this post to see if we discussed the points that were being made rather than who was making them?

thatguyfromsyracuse
06-21-2011, 06:37 AM
Sure you can. Marvel is fleecing their customers by charging a dollar more on most titles for no reason. I don't really wish to have this debate for the hundredth time but I have yet to see a legit explanation for $4 comics still.

"Fleecing"? That's a little dramatic. No reason? There is a lot of work, and a lot of people doing that work, and it all needs to be paid for. I'm sure that's a reason. Also, the retailer selling the product needs to make SOMETHING on the book. It's not like we make a shit load of money on them to begin with. And it's not like DC dropping the price on their books to $2.99 brought in a flood of new customers spending money. It stayed pretty much the same.

Andrew
06-21-2011, 06:40 AM
If superheroes were real, they'd be dying every day. Don't see the big deal.

I would agree with you if they actually kept them dead, but they never do, so there's no point in killing them off to begin with.

Because yes, if superheroes were real they would be dying every day; the difference is that they would actually stay dead.

Buk Was Right
06-21-2011, 06:42 AM
Is it worth reading back through this post to see if we discussed the points that were being made rather than who was making them?

I guess that depends on how much of a struggle reading is for you.

Do you get headaches? Nausea? A faint or euphoric feeling?

Greygor
06-21-2011, 06:43 AM
I guess that depends on how much of a struggle reading is for you.

Do you get headaches? Nausea? A faint or euphoric feeling?

yes, yes & ... yes

Oh Shit

Buk Was Right
06-21-2011, 07:16 AM
yes, yes & ... yes

Oh Shit

You have lupus.

Greygor
06-21-2011, 07:21 AM
You have lupus.

it's never Lupus

TheKraken
06-21-2011, 07:43 AM
Wait wait wait, that dude's proud his imaginary girlfriend named his dick after a fart sound effect?

thatguyfromsyracuse
06-21-2011, 07:49 AM
Well, it took 1,833 posts, but I finally revealed the "BIG POOT!" as my girlfriend dubbed it.

I don't know which is the more shocking revelation: that Millar likes writing indy comics, or that the Buckster just got shamefully Pooted, and the Tipster got, well, just the Tip!

Either way, between Millar or myself, it's just a Dick slinging contest.

I don't believe any of this.

capntightpants
06-21-2011, 08:05 AM
it's never Lupus

:lol: Only this man with this avatar.

TIP
06-21-2011, 09:08 AM
Wait wait wait, that dude's proud his imaginary girlfriend named his dick after a fart sound effect?

:lol:

Only to find out he's named after a large Persian Rug.

Phantom Eagle
06-21-2011, 09:30 AM
"Fleecing"? That's a little dramatic. No reason? There is a lot of work, and a lot of people doing that work, and it all needs to be paid for. I'm sure that's a reason. Also, the retailer selling the product needs to make SOMETHING on the book. It's not like we make a shit load of money on them to begin with. And it's not like DC dropping the price on their books to $2.99 brought in a flood of new customers spending money. It stayed pretty much the same.

Dude, do you work at a retailer in the 'Cuse? What store? That's my hometown, but I haven't been back there in a decade or so. My favorite store way back in the day was Dream Days, but iirc, he closed it down sometime in the 90s.

re: thread - "Thanks for the buttload of money, and thanks for reading the kinds of books that I had a hand in making worthwhile again, now please follow me and my ego, as we exit stage right, laughing all the way to the bank."

Phantom Eagle
06-21-2011, 09:32 AM
I would agree with you if they actually kept them dead, but they never do, so there's no point in killing them off to begin with.

Because yes, if superheroes were real they would be dying every day; the difference is that they would actually stay dead.

Except that if they were real, they also wouldn't be clones, cyborgs, mystical avatars, or superpowered mutants. Suspension of disbelief much?

Buk Was Right
06-21-2011, 09:35 AM
it's never Lupus


:lol: Only this man with this avatar.

Settin' 'em up and knocking 'em down.

Phantom Eagle
06-21-2011, 09:38 AM
Say he's right. Up and coming creators, pay attention. It takes ten years to break into comics. By Millar's estimates, we're just ten years away from the next big thing -- a time like the early 2000s where everything the same is different again and you can be wild and break rules, ten years away from a new creative renaissance like Vertigo or Marvel under Quesada...

...and I mean this with all due respect to the creators I love, the creators that built an industry I want to be a part of, many of whom are doing the work of their careers right now...

...rejoice. If you wanna be next up at bat, things are going your way.

w00t!

"Everything's Coming Up Roses (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s62MrU8mHx4)"

Andrew
06-21-2011, 10:35 AM
Except that if they were real, they also wouldn't be clones, cyborgs, mystical avatars, or superpowered mutants. Suspension of disbelief much?

How exactly is that incompatible with what I was saying?

Bill!
06-21-2011, 10:39 AM
Except that if they were real, they also wouldn't be clones, cyborgs, mystical avatars, or superpowered mutants. Suspension of disbelief much?

Suspension of disbelief only works to a point. It needs to exist in a world that is otherwise realistic. And people staying dead is a large part of that.

DaveCummings
06-21-2011, 10:46 AM
The thing is I don't disagree with what Mark is saying. However, it seems hypocritical because the stuff he's complaining about, he's had a big hand in causing. It'd be like if Michael Bay goes off on how Hollywood is making too many summer blockbusters.

Generic Poster
06-21-2011, 10:50 AM
Sure you can. Marvel is fleecing their customers by charging a dollar more on most titles for no reason. I don't really wish to have this debate for the hundredth time but I have yet to see a legit explanation for $4 comics still.

People are willing to pay $4 for a comic.

Bill!
06-21-2011, 10:50 AM
The thing is I don't disagree with what Mark is saying. However, it seems hypocritical because the stuff he's complaining about, he's had a big hand in causing. It'd be like if Michael Bay goes off on how Hollywood is making too many summer blockbusters.

The guy has to get paid. I wouldn't doubt for a second that dollar bills are at the top of his priority list over creativity. Otherwise, he wouldn't have stayed with Marvel so long.

Phantom Eagle
06-21-2011, 11:30 AM
How exactly is that incompatible with what I was saying?

They should only kill them if they stay dead? In a world full of magical science and scientific magic? Where clones and androids and robots and wizards and retcons and witches and mutants and space aliens are everyday occurrences? When they have so many outs through wondrous technology, doubles, doppelgangers, mind control, and the like, why would anyone expect companies that are in the business of licensing characters and their distinctive likenesses to shoot themselves in the dick by keeping any character dead for long? It's just a big sandbox full of action figures. It's not real. Consequences are only as long-lasting as the next event cycle.


Suspension of disbelief only works to a point. It needs to exist in a world that is otherwise realistic. And people staying dead is a large part of that.

Otherwise realistic? Yeah, it's otherwise very realistic.

Now I'm gonna shrink down to nanoscale so I can go talk to some ants on the way to see the robotic double of my dead wife who saved the universe by expanding to hyper-macro-size, right before I pray at the grave of one of my namesakes, and then go steal my tech back from the other one. After that, I'll go have a few drinks with my old pal who was shagging said dead wife, and hope he doesn't get mad and attack me with the armor that he stores in his bones, or kick me out of the mansion he loaned to our friends, the guy with the impervious skin who's married to the super-strong chick who can fly. You know, that nice couple with the baby that everyone hopes isn't a shape-shifting space alien from a race of green warriors bent on galactic domination.

/realistic

Bill!
06-21-2011, 11:47 AM
Otherwise realistic? Yeah, it's otherwise very realistic.

Now I'm gonna shrink down to nanoscale so I can go talk to some ants on the way to see the robotic double of my dead wife who saved the universe by expanding to hyper-macro-size, right before I pray at the grave of one of my namesakes, and then go steal my tech back from the other one. After that, I'll go have a few drinks with my old pal who was shagging said dead wife, and hope he doesn't get mad and attack me with the armor that he stores in his bones, or kick me out of the mansion he loaned to our friends, the guy with the impervious skin who's married to the super-strong chick who can fly. You know, that nice couple with the baby that everyone hopes isn't a shape-shifting space alien from a race of green warriors bent on galactic domination.

/realistic

No, that's not realistic, and actually half of it is borderline retarded. There are lots of things that shouldn't be screwed with. Super powers and perhaps alien races and technology should really be the only science fiction. Everything else should stay in the realm of the real world.

Phantom Eagle
06-21-2011, 11:57 AM
No, that's not realistic, and actually half of it is borderline retarded. There are lots of things that shouldn't be screwed with. Super powers and perhaps alien races and technology should really be the only science fiction. Everything else should stay in the realm of the real world.

When you write your own comic books, feel free to make it so. In the world where said heroes "exist" all of these things are "true". Or couldn't you figure out that A) I was talking about Hank Pym, Janet van Dyne, Jocasta, Scott Lang, Eric O'Grady, Tony Stark, Luke Cage, Jess Jones, and their cute li'l baby, and B) That the "/realistic" comment was intended as sarcasm? And "retarded" as an insult is just about as gauche and passé as one can get. Welcome to the 21st century.

thatguyfromsyracuse
06-21-2011, 12:08 PM
Hey, you can have guys flying around with super strength, and guys who were frozen in ice for 60 years, and a guy who's bones are laced with an indestrucible metal (who also happens to have a healing factor) and a guy who can control magnetism, but just try to keep it realistic. You know what I'm saying?

Andrew
06-21-2011, 12:10 PM
They should only kill them if they stay dead? In a world full of magical science and scientific magic? Where clones and androids and robots and wizards and retcons and witches and mutants and space aliens are everyday occurrences? When they have so many outs through wondrous technology, doubles, doppelgangers, mind control, and the like, why would anyone expect companies that are in the business of licensing characters and their distinctive likenesses to shoot themselves in the dick by keeping any character dead for long? It's just a big sandbox full of action figures. It's not real. Consequences are only as long-lasting as the next event cycle.

Translation: You like your comics to be childish drivel, and like to be sold the same stories over and over again. Gotcha.

Ever wonder if one of the reasons why sales have dropped is because of those asinine ideas that the comic book companies have been exploiting for so long? People who want quality writing get tired of those shticks really fast.

And again, you seem to have entirely missed my point: of course they're not going to keep their A-list characters dead permanently. But that being the case, there's absolutely no point in killing them off in the first place. And it stands to reason that these mainstream audiences that they're trying to reach with these stunt comics are going to ask "WTF?" when it's announced that Spider-Man or Batman are being killed off yet again after being revived for the 6th time.

Bill!
06-21-2011, 12:20 PM
When you write your own comic books, feel free to make it so. In the world where said heroes "exist" all of these things are "true". Or couldn't you figure out that A) I was talking about Hank Pym, Janet van Dyne, Jocasta, Scott Lang, Eric O'Grady, Tony Stark, Luke Cage, Jess Jones, and their cute li'l baby, and B) That the "/realistic" comment was intended as sarcasm? And "retarded" as an insult is just about as gauche and passé as one can get. Welcome to the 21st century.

Yeah, I got it all my friend. You clearly don't understand the concept of suspension of disbelief as it applies to popular fiction. But thanks for the lesson Spock.

thatguyfromsyracuse
06-21-2011, 12:23 PM
Tensions are running high!

Jef UK
06-21-2011, 12:26 PM
If you've grown tired of the conventions of superhero comics, just read the 80 billion comics that aren't superhero related these days.

Phantom Eagle
06-21-2011, 12:28 PM
Translation: You like your comics to be childish drivel, and like to be sold the same stories over and over again. Gotcha.

Ever wonder if one of the reasons why sales have dropped is because of those asinine ideas that the comic book companies have been exploiting for so long? People who want quality writing get tired of those shticks really fast.

I'll buy and read what I like, and you can do the same. If you don't like mainstream comics, don't buy them or read them. But please stop expecting them to be what they are not. If you like calling them "childish drivel" because you don't enjoy them, that's your prerogative. If you don't want to be sold the same stories over and over, why would you read mainstream comics? Because of the groundbreaking literary content? These companies LICENSE CHARACTERS. They couldn't really care less if it bothers you when they continue to do so. Were you really surprised that they brought back Steve Rogers and made him Captain America again? Do you really think that Johnny Storm will never be the Human Torch again or back in the Fantastic Four? Now, who's being realistic?

Do you really think that comics (and rock'n'roll) were meant to last forever? It's a fairly new-ish medium (compared to say, painting and sculpture), one that saw it's heyday in print, which may or may not survive the death of the format that gave it birth. Superhero comic books are not the be-all and end-all of the medium. They're a genre. When people tire of the games played by the major companies, they'll spend their money elsewhere, and someone else will step in to fill the void. Keeping a few LICENSED CHARACTERS dead is not really going to bring droves of readers into the stores, clamoring for realism. Did you not notice the tights, capes, flying men and rocketships?

Do you need a beret, a cigarette holder and a soapbox to go with your schtick?

thatguyfromsyracuse
06-21-2011, 12:29 PM
If you've grown tired of the conventions of superhero comics, just read the 80 billion comics that aren't superhero related these days.

Oh really Jef? Like which ones? THOSE DON'T EXIST!

Phantom Eagle
06-21-2011, 12:31 PM
Yeah, I got it all my friend. You clearly don't understand the concept of suspension of disbelief as it applies to popular fiction. But thanks for the lesson Spock.

I've suspended my disbelief long enough to read your posts.

Bill!
06-21-2011, 12:34 PM
Yes everyone, anything should happen in comics without question. Grass can be blue, the sky should be green, and characters should randomly morph into vegetables from time to time, because why not?

If you don't like it, then don't read comics, simple, no?

bachman
06-21-2011, 12:34 PM
(Screams that really annoying Dawn from Buffy scream) "Stop it stop it STOP IT! You're giving that monster Mark Millar exactly what he wants!!!"

thatguyfromsyracuse
06-21-2011, 12:37 PM
Everything should be so grounded in reality that it almost feels like you aren't even reading something that's meant to be entertaining. It should almost feel like work to make it through a comic.

Jef UK
06-21-2011, 12:39 PM
I'm with Phantom Eagle. If you have a shared, superhero universe that is, what, 75 years old, the idea of suspension of disbelief is localized to any given story arc (at best), and you've probably read too many superhero comics for too long if you're tired of the genre's conventions. So take a break, read some other things, and then when you're ready to deal with, say, a blue, teleporting, demon-mutant with a sorceress girlfriend not staying dead for more than a couple years, buy the latest trade.

Phantom Eagle
06-21-2011, 12:39 PM
Yes everyone, anything should happen in comics without question. Grass can be blue, the sky should be green, and characters should randomly morph into vegetables from time to time, because why not?

If you don't like it, then don't read comics, simple, no?

Maybe you missed Nextwave. And grass can be blue and the sky green in science fiction, for very scientific reasons. Read and buy what you like, write your own comics, and/or have fun raging against the machine.

Andrew
06-21-2011, 12:40 PM
I'll buy and read what I like, and you can do the same. If you don't like mainstream comics, don't buy them or read them. But please stop expecting them to be what they are not. If you like calling them "childish drivel" because you don't enjoy them, that's your prerogative. If you don't want to be sold the same stories over and over, why would you read mainstream comics? Because of the groundbreaking literary content? These companies LICENSE CHARACTERS. They couldn't really care less if it bothers you when they continue to do so. Were you really surprised that they brought back Steve Rogers and made him Captain America again? Do you really think that Johnny Storm will never be the Human Torch again or back in the Fantastic Four? Now, who's being realistic?

Nice to see how you completely ignored my next paragraph:


And again, you seem to have entirely missed my point: of course they're not going to keep their A-list characters dead permanently. But that being the case, there's absolutely no point in killing them off in the first place. And it stands to reason that these mainstream audiences that they're trying to reach with these stunt comics are going to ask "WTF?" when it's announced that Spider-Man or Batman are being killed off yet again after being revived for the 6th time.

This isn't about me saying I'm tired of the genre, because I'm not. I buy a ton of comics every month and am happy to continue doing so. This is more about an overall concern for the state of the industry when it resorts to stunt deaths over and over to try to get mainstream attention. Thing is though, it's all for nothing. If you're not going to keep them dead, don't bother killing them off in the first place. Focus on telling good stories, period. Gimmicks have never done anyone any good. Remember the '90s? How well did those gimmicks work out in the long run? And again: how will the mainstream react when Batman is killed off after being revived over and over again? Eventually nobody will care, and what will the big two resort to in order to try to get a 2 or 3 month sales boost at that point? It's not a good situation no matter how you look at it, but your type of views and you arguing in favor of it does nothing but enable the downward spiral to continue, assuming the big two are run by people who think the way you do.

Magnum V.I.
06-21-2011, 12:42 PM
I'm with Phantom Eagle. If you have a shared, superhero universe that is, what, 75 years old, the idea of suspension of disbelief is localized to any given story arc (at best), and you've probably read too many superhero comics for too long if you're tired of the genre's conventions. So take a break, read some other things, and then when you're ready to deal with, say, a blue, teleporting, demon-mutant with a sorceress girlfriend not staying dead for more than a couple years, buy the latest trade.

Are you telling me Nightcrawler is coming back Jef??!?! ARE YOU!?!?!?

:( Please don't be yanking on my crank.

And by crank I mean my dong.

Jef UK
06-21-2011, 12:42 PM
Yes everyone, anything should happen in comics without question. Grass can be blue, the sky should be green, and characters should randomly morph into vegetables from time to time, because why not?

If you don't like it, then don't read comics, simple, no?

I guess you think superhero comics are comics.

There are plenty of surrealist comix out there, btw, so your example isn't absurd.

Phantom Eagle
06-21-2011, 12:51 PM
Blue Grass (http://www.solstation.com/life/a-plants.htm)

Green Sky (http://www.news.wisc.edu/15301)

Perception in Plants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_perception_%28physiology%29)


“It is now life and not art that requires the willing suspension of disbelief." - Lionel Trilling

Jef UK
06-21-2011, 12:52 PM
This isn't about me saying I'm tired of the genre, because I'm not. I buy a ton of comics every month and am happy to continue doing so.

"Comics" isn't a genre.

Also, I don't think writers and editors try to resort to gimmicks too often. In most cases, I think they write deaths for one reason or another, and then marketing gets to work to sell their books. I think it's pretty easy not to be upset by marketing, myself. Otherwise, you're tired of a genre convention in mainstream, superhero comic books. Which is fine!

Jef UK
06-21-2011, 12:53 PM
Are you telling me Nightcrawler is coming back Jef??!?! ARE YOU!?!?!?

:( Please don't be yanking on my crank.

And by crank I mean my dong.


Ha, I have no idea. I just assume so. I mean, he's a teleporting demon mutant with a sorceress girlfriend in a Marvel Comic!

Forrest
06-21-2011, 12:55 PM
I'm with Phantom Eagle. If you have a shared, superhero universe that is, what, 75 years old, the idea of suspension of disbelief is localized to any given story arc (at best), and you've probably read too many superhero comics for too long if you're tired of the genre's conventions. So take a break, read some other things, and then when you're ready to deal with, say, a blue, teleporting, demon-mutant with a sorceress girlfriend not staying dead for more than a couple years, buy the latest trade.

Amen.


And again: how will the mainstream react when Batman is killed off after being revived over and over again?

Eh, did you know that Batman was never killed off? Anyone who could be bothered to Google Darkseid's Omega Beams after reading Final Crisis would have known right away that anyone hit by the beams can be brought back by him. Someone on the Geoff Johns message board pointed this out the day that issue of Final Crisis was released.

Also, some of my favorite comic book stories out there are those dealing deaths and returns of heroes, e.g. Crisis on Infinite Earths, 52, Green Lantern: Rebirth, Brightest Day, Geoff Johns's current Flash volume, etc.

Magnum V.I.
06-21-2011, 12:55 PM
Ha, I have no idea. I just assume so. I mean, he's a teleporting demon mutant with a sorceress girlfriend in a Marvel Comic!

He'll come back eventually!! I love Superhero comics!! and Crime Comics!!! And Mystery Comics!!


I just love comic books the format period!!

Foolish Mortal
06-21-2011, 12:56 PM
The trick to dealing with crazy, larger-than-life stuff in superhero comics is you have the characters react to all of it as real people would act. It grounds it in a pseudo-reality, and what helps the readers suspend their disbelief.

People might not understand what it's like to be a large, orange, rock-man, but they understand human misery and understand how difficult a life Ben Grimm has at times.

thatguyfromsyracuse
06-21-2011, 12:56 PM
I love Jef because he says all the smart stuff that I'm thinking.

Jef UK
06-21-2011, 12:59 PM
I'm much more upset by the fact that both a genius like Hank McCoy and the Prince of Atlantis don't understand the difference between "who" and "whom," and insist on using "whom" incorrectly in the Fraction-penned Uncanny X-Men.

Andrew
06-21-2011, 01:00 PM
"Comics" isn't a genre.

Superhero comics.

Phantom Eagle
06-21-2011, 01:08 PM
Nice to see how you completely ignored my next paragraph:



This isn't about me saying I'm tired of the genre, because I'm not. I buy a ton of comics every month and am happy to continue doing so. This is more about an overall concern for the state of the industry when it resorts to stunt deaths over and over to try to get mainstream attention. Thing is though, it's all for nothing. If you're not going to keep them dead, don't bother killing them off in the first place. Focus on telling good stories, period. Gimmicks have never done anyone any good. Remember the '90s? How well did those gimmicks work out in the long run? And again: how will the mainstream react when Batman is killed off after being revived over and over again? Eventually nobody will care, and what will the big two resort to in order to try to get a 2 or 3 month sales boost at that point? It's not a good situation no matter how you look at it, but your type of views and you arguing in favor of it does nothing but enable the downward spiral to continue, assuming the big two are run by people who think the way you do.

That paragraph wasn't in your post when I replied to it, because I quoted the entirety of the post I was responding to, simply by clicking on "Reply With Quote". I don't disagree with anything you've said in that final paragraph, really. Except maybe that "deaths" in comics do get readers interested, sometimes they are justified or interesting and people who like superhero comics want to have their cake and eat it, too. They want the status quo to be shaken up. Just not too much, for too long, or too permanently.

You are, however, losing sight of the fact that these are big companies, with marketing departments, owned by multinational multimedia megacorporations, who will do just about anything for a little market share, press coverage or perceived interest by the "mainstream".

The downward spiral you speak of is not caused by these things so much as it is by A) readers turning 12, B) the print industry in general dying, C) comics being a 20th century art form which can barely compete with other, postmodern, interactive forms of entertainment, and D) a distribution monopoly which delivers a hobby product into a network of boutiques to a niche clientele for a share of an ever-decreasing discretionary income.

Cheers.

Buk Was Right
06-21-2011, 01:08 PM
This suspension of disbelief and now FAR you're allowed to suspend disbelief argument is quite simply one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever read on the internet.

Just absolutely astoundingly idiotic on almost every level.

Phantom Eagle
06-21-2011, 01:12 PM
This suspension of disbelief and now FAR you're allowed to suspend disbelief argument is quite simply one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever read on the internet.

Just absolutely astoundingly idiotic on almost every level.

Buk IS Right

Jef UK
06-21-2011, 01:13 PM
Superhero comics.

This is sort of tangental, but I've been thinking about it a lot:

I love Rick Remender's stories. I was psyched about Uncanny X-Force. I just read the first two hardcovers, and I was disappointed. And I realized it wasn't because the writing or the art was subpar or anything like that--quite the opposite. Rather, goddamn it, it was another story about Wolverine, and Psylocke, and Angel and Apocalypse and and and. Ugh, I've just read enough X-Men (Wolverine, specifically) stories in my life that no matter who or what does whatever with them, it's going to be less exciting than if I was reading about new characters and the like.

It's like watching the thousandth episode of Simpsons: it doesn't matter how good the execution on the episode is, it's still the thousandth episode of the Simpsons. You know how the jokes will play. You know how the plot will develop.

Bill!
06-21-2011, 01:14 PM
This suspension of disbelief and now FAR you're allowed to suspend disbelief argument is quite simply one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever read on the internet.

Just absolutely astoundingly idiotic on almost every level.

That doesn't surprise me.

Buk Was Right
06-21-2011, 01:15 PM
That doesn't surprise me.

Pithy.

Bill!
06-21-2011, 01:30 PM
This whole "idiotic" argument reminds me of a great plot thread in X-Factor. After Banshee died, Theresa didn't believe it and kept saying she was just waiting for him to return to them, because that's what always happens. But everyone else around her thought she was acting like a fucking lunatic, and eventually she admitted it too. Why? Because in a world where aliens visit us, people have super powers, there is alternate dimensions and alternate realities, the things that otherwise hold reality together still matter. From the little things like spiders being gross and the sky being blue, to big things like the consequences of life and death. Reactions and emotions depend on it, and so does the reader.

Phantom Eagle
06-21-2011, 01:37 PM
This is sort of tangental, but I've been thinking about it a lot:

I love Rick Remender's stories. I was psyched about Uncanny X-Force. I just read the first two hardcovers, and I was disappointed. And I realized it wasn't because the writing or the art was subpar or anything like that--quite the opposite. Rather, goddamn it, it was another story about Wolverine, and Psylocke, and Angel and Apocalypse and and and. Ugh, I've just read enough X-Men (Wolverine, specifically) stories in my life that no matter who or what does whatever with them, it's going to be less exciting than if I was reading about new characters and the like.

It's like watching the thousandth episode of Simpsons: it doesn't matter how good the execution on the episode is, it's still the thousandth episode of the Simpsons. You know how the jokes will play. You know how the plot will develop.

It's true. I'm enjoying superhero comics again right now mainly because I took the better part of the last decade off from superhero comics. Almost 15 years, actually.

I specifically avoided the kinds of books that made me walk away in the 90s (by around '96 I had gotten really jaded), and I went out of my way to seek out the kind of stuff recommended by magazines like The Comics Journal. I read Chester Brown, Chris Ware, Lewis Trondheim, Scott Morse, Brian Ralph, and anything "arty" or "serious" or "non-mainstream" that I could find.

A few years ago, I read an interview in TCJ with Kurt Busiek, titled "Mining the Mainstream". He made a few good points about doing good work in a mainstream arena, and I was interested enough to seek out some mainstream titles that looked interesting, to see if the shift in mainstream comics away from "name" artists and platinum covers toward writers and storytelling had finally paid off.

Also, it's really hard to maintain a pullbox, a discount or one's interest when only seeking out the rare, the obscure, the high-falutin', the published-only-when-dude-gets-one-finished, and the depressingly autobiographical. After a while, I wanted to read superhero comics again. I actually missed their fun, their over-the-top aspects, and the general air of fantasy they provide.

Not long after that, I read a couple of interviews with some guy named Bendis, who had done some interesting independent comics that I was familiar with but hadn't gotten around to reading yet. When I started picking up mainstream comics again, I really enjoyed them.

So, sometimes taking a decade or two off from the things that bug you will allow you to achieve the perspective that you weren't getting before. Things are cyclical, including our personal tastes.

I've gotten to the same point with The Simpsons, Seinfeld, Family Guy, noir films, loose women, cheap beer, heavy metal music, hard bop jazz and recreational entheogens. If it just doesn't float your boat or flip your wig like it used to, read Pogo and listen to classical music for a bit. Too much of anything will make you lose interest.

/tangential discussion

Phantom Eagle
06-21-2011, 01:45 PM
This whole "idiotic" argument reminds me of a great plot thread in X-Factor. After Banshee died, Theresa didn't believe it and kept saying she was just waiting for him to return to them, because that's what always happens. But everyone else around her thought she was acting like a fucking lunatic, and eventually she admitted it too. Why? Because in a world where aliens visit us, people have super powers, there is alternate dimensions and alternate realities, the things that otherwise hold reality together still matter. From the little things like spiders being gross and the sky being blue, to big things like the consequences of life and death. Reactions and emotions depend on it, and so does the reader.

Dead X-Men should stay dead. I think we can all agree on that.

Spider aren't gross, by the way. They bestow great power.

Not only that, but they still had Siryn, basically a younger, hotter female version of exactly the same third-tier (fifth-tier?) Z-list mutant. Right down to the same exact costume and red hair. It wasn't like Banshee ever had his own title, his own family of books, or more than a handful of people ever bought a comic specifically because Banshee was in it.

http://www.superbuddies.net/starbird/200869-100733-siryn_super.jpg

artimoff
06-21-2011, 02:07 PM
Not only that, but they still had Siryn, basically a younger, hotter female version of exactly the same third-tier (fifth-tier?) Z-list mutant. Right down to the same exact costume and red hair. It wasn't like Banshee ever had his own title, his own family of books, or more than a handful of people ever bought a comic specifically because Banshee was in it.


I am one of those handfull of people. Don't dis the Banshee.

Foolish Mortal
06-21-2011, 02:11 PM
Every character has fans. :D

Slewo.O
06-21-2011, 02:12 PM
Every character has fans. :D

Even Cardiac?

Buk Was Right
06-21-2011, 02:13 PM
Even Cardiac?

http://twitter.com/#!/Flonk2/status/78228210772488192

Foolish Mortal
06-21-2011, 02:17 PM
Even Cardiac?
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/adamosgp/Forum%20Reactions/leon-stansfield-everyone.gif
"EVERY-ONNNNE!!"

Phantom Eagle
06-21-2011, 02:29 PM
I am one of those handfull of people. Don't dis the Banshee.


Every character has fans. :D

Hey, I only know because I include myself in the number of folks who cared enough to buy a comic because it included Banshee. Wow, it looks like all five of us are in this one thread.

Patton
06-21-2011, 03:03 PM
Cardiac's cool.

Slewo.O
06-21-2011, 03:04 PM
Cardiac's cool.

I'm just riffing don't worry. ;)

Arion
06-21-2011, 04:02 PM
Every character has fans. :D

So true .

Forrest
06-21-2011, 04:20 PM
Jubilee has been for years and still is one of my all-time favorite comic book characters.

Jason California
06-21-2011, 04:21 PM
Cardiac's cool.


When did you get back?

EDIT

looks like the 13th of June. Please go back to Dawson crying. That is how I think of you, and welcome back

Will
06-21-2011, 04:37 PM
I'm gonna miss him writing Marvel stuff.
I think the last thing I enjoyed of his Marvel output was Old Man Logan with some FF thrown in (albeit feeling mostly mechanical).

After that I thought he was relying too much on shock tactics and sensationalism, so much so that it affected my ability to connect to any of his characters with prime examples being Nemesis and his current Ultimates work. I did enjoy his first volume of Kick-Ass though and Superior seems like it has some semblance of heart within the story. But as far as I'm concerned I'm kind of glad he's away from Marvel since I thought the quality of his work was seriously degrading. Hopefully one day if he decides to do more work for Marvel he has more of a refreshing take on the books and gets back to working more towards approachable character work along with the cool bombastic action stuff he tends to pull off so well.

Patton
06-21-2011, 06:08 PM
When did you get back?

EDIT

looks like the 13th of June. Please go back to Dawson crying. That is how I think of you, and welcome back

Thanks. And sure.

Greygor
06-22-2011, 03:04 AM
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/adamosgp/Forum%20Reactions/leon-stansfield-everyone.gif
"EVERY-ONNNNE!!"

Another bad guy that has my name

Generic Poster
06-22-2011, 07:02 AM
I'm with Phantom Eagle. If you have a shared, superhero universe that is, what, 75 years old, the idea of suspension of disbelief is localized to any given story arc (at best), and you've probably read too many superhero comics for too long if you're tired of the genre's conventions. So take a break, read some other things, and then when you're ready to deal with, say, a blue, teleporting, demon-mutant with a sorceress girlfriend not staying dead for more than a couple years, buy the latest trade.

I generally agree with this idea, but main characters who are explicitly killed and then come back to life later are a relatively new convention, and a poor one at that.

Greygor
06-22-2011, 07:26 AM
Now let's tag this post with the Tag "Will Never Happen"

It's been shown recently that with the right Creator's there is no reason that new characters can't take on the mantle of existing heroes, i.e. Batman (Dick Grayson), Captain America (Bucky Barnes).

Is it at all possible that Publishers could actually let their "universe" move forward rather than resetting each time to keep existing characters in the role. Let Steve Rodger's get older at a more natural rate, let Peter Parker reach middle age and so on.

You could still release "classic" stories with the original characters but allow your "Core" line to move forwards.







This will never fly, will it?

DaveCummings
06-22-2011, 07:52 AM
Now let's tag this post with the Tag "Will Never Happen"

It's been shown recently that with the right Creator's there is no reason that new characters can't take on the mantle of existing heroes, i.e. Batman (Dick Grayson), Captain America (Bucky Barnes).

Is it at all possible that Publishers could actually let their "universe" move forward rather than resetting each time to keep existing characters in the role. Let Steve Rodger's get older at a more natural rate, let Peter Parker reach middle age and so on.

You could still release "classic" stories with the original characters but allow your "Core" line to move forwards.







This will never fly, will it?

Though letting characters move forward would be nice, I'm more in favor of resetting universes every 10 years or so, to have stories for each new generation. I'm in the mindset that having these long histories may be great for long time fans, but it has hurt comics' ability to reach new people.

Ben
06-22-2011, 07:54 AM
Jubilee has been for years and still is one of my all-time favorite comic book characters.
It's been dark times for you Jubilee fans...

Ben
06-22-2011, 07:56 AM
Though letting characters move forward would be nice, I'm more in favor of resetting universes every 10 years or so, to have stories for each new generation. I'm in the mindset that having these long histories may be great for long time fans, but it has hurt comics' ability to reach new people.
There's no reason to "reset" the universe every 10 years just like there's no need to reset the Simpsons universe every 10 years. Just keep telling stories and don't age the characters. Done!

DaveCummings
06-22-2011, 08:00 AM
There's no reason to "reset" the universe every 10 years just like there's no need to reset the Simpsons universe every 10 years. Just keep telling stories and don't age the characters. Done!
The difference is with the Simpsons, you can watch any episode and not feel like you're missing out on some backstory.

Matt Jay
06-22-2011, 08:02 AM
Now let's tag this post with the Tag "Will Never Happen"

It's been shown recently that with the right Creator's there is no reason that new characters can't take on the mantle of existing heroes, i.e. Batman (Dick Grayson), Captain America (Bucky Barnes).

Is it at all possible that Publishers could actually let their "universe" move forward rather than resetting each time to keep existing characters in the role. Let Steve Rodger's get older at a more natural rate, let Peter Parker reach middle age and so on.

You could still release "classic" stories with the original characters but allow your "Core" line to move forwards.







This will never fly, will it?

I can see them doing a line or a series where that happens. They kind of already have with Spider-girl.

Ben Weldon
06-22-2011, 09:08 AM
I generally agree with this idea, but main characters who are explicitly killed and then come back to life later are a relatively new convention, and a poor one at that.

Ummm...
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_v-jkdc-LjSM/TDkyc4S912I/AAAAAAAAAQ8/yoJD10RgMQc/s1600/passion-of-the-christ.jpg

And for that matter...
http://www.empireonline.com/images/features/100greatestcharacters/photos/74.jpg
http://remarkablogger.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Gandalf.jpg
http://www.barewalls.com/i/c/399359_Return-of-Sherlock-Holmes-book-jacket-The.jpg