Dc to Retailers: You're Not Doing Your Jobs

[wishlish]

From Bleeding Cool: (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/06/19/more-from-the-dc-retailer-roadshow/)


DC Co-Publisher Dan Didio was quite worked up over retailers who objected to, basically the reading of Previews for almost two hours, and DC Co-Publisher Jim Lee had to jump in to calm things down.

When a retailer brought up the fact that they were losing a lot of sales as people waited for the relaunch, DC Senior VP Sales Bob Wayne said flat out that meant retailers were not doing their jobs.

Wow. I realize this is a paraphrase, but I'd love to hear what Bob Wayne actually said. He's usually come off much better than this.

Doesn't someone at DC realize that there's going to be a significant fraction of readers who are going to abandon the books until September? How is this a retailer's fault? What's the guy behind the counter supposed to do to get someone to buy a book that's viewed as inconsequential?

[ConnorHawke]

Yeah, I wish there was a transcript.

In terms of damage control it reminds me a bit of that quote from Buffy about smothering a forest fire with napalm. Good job, guys!

[Lester C.]

What will be interesting is once they stop will fans stop for good. The hardest part of me quitting comics was quitting, once I did the jones I had carried for so many years was gone.

As for what they said, that isn't what they said. And don't forget the pressure they are under and the fact that the tense meeting had been going on for hours.

[Chrysame]

I dropped my pull list after the announcement of the reboot. My LCS sent me an email and tried in the nicest way possible to get me to stick with my comics. As my faves were the ones getting rebooted rather than relaunched (secret six, birds of prey, steph batgirl, powergirl...) I went ahead and dropped. The money adds up. Keep buying (knowing that some of these books were given very little time to wrap up) or save the funds and see what happens come Sept? Save the money, save the money, save the money!

But, my LCS tried to keep me. They made an attempt. They didn't just do nothing and aren't just sitting on their hands. Would really like to see the transcript from this and see what really happened.

[Patrick Gerard]

From Bleeding Cool: (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/06/19/more-from-the-dc-retailer-roadshow/)



Wow. I realize this is a paraphrase, but I'd love to hear what Bob Wayne actually said. He's usually come off much better than this.

Doesn't someone at DC realize that there's going to be a significant fraction of readers who are going to abandon the books until September? How is this a retailer's fault? What's the guy behind the counter supposed to do to get someone to buy a book that's viewed as inconsequential?

This all just reaffirms, for me, a certain level of desperation. Along with Eddie Berganza cheerfully opining that comic shops will be fine because people still go to record stores, practically painting a Sam Goody comparison ripe for inciting panic.

Most of the titles have been selling below even modern cancellation standards for months now.

I think this revamp is being forced by necessity. Unfortunately, the flipside is that years of reliance on the Direct Market means the publishers don't really have a handle on marketing their own product and, frankly, only the absolute best retailers do, either, and generally relied on inertia and addiction.

I think guys like, say, Cliff Biggers or Shelton Drum will weather this but a lot of retailers won't... and a lot of the existing comics industry might not either.

One thing I do think is that DC is too reliant on New York and LA... and if the direct market does implode (I'm not optimistic, on the whole), longtime retailers, particularly ones who have thriving business with female readers and kids -- and a truly broad demographic less tied to economic booms and busts, should be hired as consultants for a restructuring. Just make sure it's those guys and not the guys who just rent a space and open the doors.

I want to clarify that I think guys like Bob Wayne are good people. I'm just not totally sold on the current course, pre- or post-revamp.

[Phantom Eagle]

On a brighter note, THUNDER Agents is not ending, just skipping September.

It seems like DC is keeping everyone a little bit too much in the dark, and trying to put it on the retailers to keep clients.

[BClayMoore]

I dropped my pull list after the announcement of the reboot. My LCS sent me an email and tried in the nicest way possible to get me to stick with my comics. As my faves were the ones getting rebooted rather than relaunched (secret six, birds of prey, steph batgirl, powergirl...) I went ahead and dropped. The money adds up. Keep buying (knowing that some of these books were given very little time to wrap up) or save the funds and see what happens come Sept? Save the money, save the money, save the money!

But, my LCS tried to keep me. They made an attempt. They didn't just do nothing and aren't just sitting on their hands. Would really like to see the transcript from this and see what really happened.

Your LCS is unusually proactive, and good for them.

-BCM

[BClayMoore]

One thing I do think is that DC is too reliant on New York and LA... and if the direct market does implode (I'm not optimistic, on the whole), longtime retailers, particularly ones who have thriving business with female readers and kids -- and a truly broad demographic less tied to economic booms and busts, should be hired as consultants for a restructuring. Just make sure it's those guys and not the guys who just rent a space and open the doors..

When I worked for Image, we realized that the VAST majority of our business came from California and New York. So much so that we wondered if we shouldn't just focus on marketing in those areas.

There aren't shops in most areas of the country, much less GOOD shops, but the industry continues to cater completely to the whims of the the local comic shops, thanks to the screwed up distribution system we have.

It's tough, but I think DC is bending over backwards to accommodate comic shops, personally, starting with the pricing on their digital comics.

-BCM

[Patrick Gerard]

When I worked for Image, we realized that the VAST majority of our business came from California and New York. So much so that we wondered if we shouldn't just focus on marketing in those areas.

There aren't shops in most areas of the country, much less GOOD shops, but the industry continues to cater completely to the whims of the the local comic shops, thanks to the screwed up distribution system we have.

It's tough, but I think DC is bending over backwards to accommodate comic shops, personally, starting with the pricing on their digital comics.

-BCM

That's a huge part of what makes guys like Cliff and Shelton stand out, for me. They represent the in-roads into places like the south.

Dr. No's or Heroes are practically like lunar colonies. I think there's something there to be learned from how they made inroads into hostile terrain.

[Patrick Gerard]

And I agree with you on the idea that DC has, if anything, hurt itself to help retailers.

The question in my mind is if they hurt themselves in the right way or helped in the right way.

[BClayMoore]

And I agree with you on the idea that DC has, if anything, hurt itself to help retailers.

The question in my mind is if they hurt themselves in the right way or helped in the right way.

Yeah, Shelton is a badass.

The idea that a retailer would balk at reading what is essentially his product catalog "for two hours" is...gah, whatever.

-BCM

[KJ!]

DC has screwed themselves. They should have had a better transition planned.

As it is, I'll often pick up a random title or two each week, just to sample something new, along with my regular fare.

For the next few months, DC's off my list for that. If I want to try something new, why would I jump in now on a book that's ending very shortly, and that may or may not even get an actual proper ending?

It's like being expected to read only parts 4-6 of a mini-series. It seems that Didio expects you to do that, and enjoy the experience.

[Chris Jones]

Urrrggghhh...

[The Hodag]

As a retailer I've largely stopped keeping up with the fandom reaction online. It's interesting at times, but online reactions so rarely mirror actual sales patterns that online punditry is often an exhausting distraction.

For instance, I see a lot of sturm und drang on this board, but at my shop, with admittedly a good bit of work on our part to ease customers in, excitement is high, subscriptions to new titles are rolling in, sales are decidedly up, and truthfully, none of my customers are even talking about digital. Throughout the entire last year, with its many experiments in day-and-date digital release, I saw no significant effect on sales. Although I'll be watching digital sales patterns closely, the current model DC's presenting gives me hope that digital will primarily be for bringing in new readers, and I think we'll keep most of our customers just fine and hopefully see an influx of newbies drawn in through digital and DC's accompanying marketing campaign.

What we've done is to insure we're versed on the upcoming titles, post a folder at the counter with all 52 solicits and a thumbnail of their covers, and have a handy checklist of all the books to simply hand to our subscribers to update with the new titles they want to add. Honestly, even if I despised the changes on a creative level (and while I've got some concerns, I'm more enthused than not) we'd still be doing this. It's our job.

But on a philosophical level, I've long felt fans need to come more to terms with the mutability of corporate comics. These books perpetuate for decade upon decade upon decade and pass through the hands of so many creators that I think it'd just be healthier for blood pressures everywhere to relax a little on the inevitability of change for favorite heroes. DC characters, who've always tended a bit more toward iconic and larger-than-life than Marvel, are particularly resilient. Brooding 1939 Batman was cool and 60s campy Batman was cool and craggy Dark Knight Batman was cool and slyly family friendly Brave and the Bold Batman is cool.

I don't mean to disparage fans of continuity. I understand the emotional investment. I just think that over-investment is destined to bring tough times because corporate books are destined to change with creative teams and the spirit of the times. It's the weakness of serial stories over decades, but it's also their strength. The can renew, they can be reborn.

Tomorrow my co-manager is hitting up the DC retailer expo in Dallas and hopefully it won't be a Bob Wayne douche-fest. I've seen him be douchey once or twice, though not egregiously so for a guy in his position.

My quick retailer assessment of DC's relaunch efforts is "so far, so good."

[Slewo.O]

According to a board member who was actually there only 2 people actually objected. No one else cared and they talked those two down. Rich should have fact-checked this one.

[Slewo.O]

As a retailer I've largely stopped keeping up with the fandom reaction online. It's interesting at times, but online reactions so rarely mirror actual sales patterns that online punditry is often an exhausting distraction.

For instance, I see a lot of sturm und drang on this board, but at my shop, with admittedly a good bit of work on our part to ease customers in, excitement is high, subscriptions to new titles are rolling in, sales are decidedly up, and truthfully, none of my customers are even talking about digital. Throughout the entire last year, with its many experiments in day-and-date digital release, I saw no significant effect on sales. Although I'll be watching digital sales patterns closely, the current model DC's presenting gives me hope that digital will primarily be for bringing in new readers, and I think we'll keep most of our customers just fine and hopefully see an influx of newbies drawn in through digital and DC's accompanying marketing campaign.

What we've done is to insure we're versed on the upcoming titles, post a folder at the counter with all 52 solicits and a thumbnail of their covers, and have a handy checklist of all the books to simply hand to our subscribers to update with the new titles they want to add. Honestly, even if I despised the changes on a creative level (and while I've got some concerns, I'm more enthused than not) we'd still be doing this. It's our job.

But on a philosophical level, I've long felt fans need to come more to terms with the mutability of corporate comics. These books perpetuate for decade upon decade upon decade and pass through the hands of so many creators that I think it'd just be healthier for blood pressures everywhere to relax a little on the inevitability of change for favorite heroes. DC characters, who've always tended a bit more toward iconic and larger-than-life than Marvel, are particularly resilient. Brooding 1939 Batman was cool and 60s campy Batman was cool and craggy Dark Knight Batman was cool and slyly family friendly Brave and the Bold Batman is cool.

I don't mean to disparage fans of continuity. I understand the emotional investment. I just think that over-investment is destined to bring tough times because corporate books are destined to change with creative teams and the spirit of the times. It's the weakness of serial stories over decades, but it's also their strength. The can renew, they can be reborn.

Tomorrow my co-manager is hitting up the DC retailer expo in Dallas and hopefully it won't be a Bob Wayne douche-fest. I've seen him be douchey once or twice, though not egregiously so for a guy in his position.

My quick retailer assessment of DC's relaunch efforts is "so far, so good."

Yep. That's what people forget, we're not the first or the last people to read these characters. They're always going to end up changing in some shape or another. They're also always going to revert in some form or another, gotta keep that in mind if you're reading comics for decades. :?

[Hugin]

But on a philosophical level, I've long felt fans need to come more to terms with the mutability of corporate comics. These books perpetuate for decade upon decade upon decade and pass through the hands of so many creators that I think it'd just be healthier for blood pressures everywhere to relax a little on the inevitability of change for favorite heroes. DC characters, who've always tended a bit more toward iconic and larger-than-life than Marvel, are particularly resilient. Brooding 1939 Batman was cool and 60s campy Batman was cool and craggy Dark Knight Batman was cool and slyly family friendly Brave and the Bold Batman is cool.

I don't mean to disparage fans of continuity. I understand the emotional investment. I just think that over-investment is destined to bring tough times because corporate books are destined to change with creative teams and the spirit of the times. It's the weakness of serial stories over decades, but it's also their strength. The can renew, they can be reborn.A lot of the complaints on this board, though, have been that they're not changing enough. We still have 4 Green Lanterns. Identity Crisis still happened. Barbara Gordon isn't changing, she's just being turned back a couple decades. We should have had more things like Firestorm, keeping the core of the character but putting a whole new spin on it, while simplifying the mythology in the process.

[Slewo.O]

A lot of the complaints on this board, though, have been that they're not changing enough. We still have 4 Green Lanterns. Identity Crisis still happened. Barbara Gordon isn't changing, she's just being turned back a couple decades. We should have had more things like Firestorm, keeping the core of the character but putting a whole new spin on it, while simplifying the mythology in the process.

Of course they're not going to tinker around too much with what's sold. Guess what the two biggest top selling lines in DC are? Green Lantern and Batman They're not stupid enough to mess around so muchvwith a formula that's worked. Continuity or not, that'd be gutting a cash cow. (Yes I know they're pushing Dick and Barbara back into previous roles but the point still stands since Tim, Damian, Cassandra, and Stephanie still exist.)

As for Barbara how so? They're changing the character in-story so I'd imagine it's a step forward rather than simply being de-aged.

[Slewo.O]

As for keeping stories like Identity Crisis and Infinite Crisis in continuity? I can't fathom the wisdom in that. Stuff like Blackest Night I can understand. Frankly worrying about how a story from seven years ago fits into the present books shouldn't bother people in the first place. It was barely referenced these days and the enjoyment of a story should stand on it's own merits rather than how it "fits in". Filling the blanks is part of the fun in this stuff.

[The Hodag]

A lot of the complaints on this board, though, have been that they're not changing enough. We still have 4 Green Lanterns. Identity Crisis still happened. Barbara Gordon isn't changing, she's just being turned back a couple decades. We should have had more things like Firestorm, keeping the core of the character but putting a whole new spin on it, while simplifying the mythology in the process.

I probably would have preferred that, too, at least on a creative level, but in an era when top-selling books only hit 80 or 100k, you don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Those numbers are low, but they ARE numbers, and they're the core infrastructure of the entire industry. If digital doesn't pan out, or even if it starts strong, but proves unable to retain readership after 5 or 10 years, that core of readers buying physical copies will continue to be vitally important. There's already been backlash over some of the continuity changes, and I think changing everything (including recent BIG successes like Morrison's Batman and Blackest Night) risks seriously alienating that core.

Another thing to consider: DC's strong trade program. You outright cut megasellers like Blackest Night, Killing Joke, or Identity Crisis and you're losing tons of recurring yearly revenue. If you could magically know a reboot would double, triple, quadruple the overall readership, it might be worth it, but that's utterly impossible. So DC made a somewhat frustrating, but understandable choice: keep the popular stuff and continue selling the trade paperbacks that popularized it, revamp the mid-tier concepts to see if they can get a boost.

It's sound business.

[Hugin]

Of course they're not going to tinker around too much with what's sold. Guess what the two biggest top selling lines in DC are? Green Lantern and Batman They're not stupid enough to mess around so muchvwith a formula that's worked. Continuity or not, that'd be gutting a cash cow. (Yes I know they're pushing Dick and Barbara back into previous roles but the point still stands since Tim, Damian, Cassandra, and Stephanie still exist.)They aren't changing Green Lantern was sort of my point. For this to work, they should have carried over NO continuity. Start with new origins, then take us 2 years into the career of the Trinity. Instead, they want to claim they're changing everything while instead just making things more complicated.


As for Barbara how so? They're changing the character in-story so I'd imagine it's a step forward rather than simply being de-aged.If it was a step forward she'd still be her own hero. She hasn't worn a bat in 22 years, and now she's Batgirl again. It may be an in-story change, but it's regression just as much as Nightwing is.

[Slewo.O]

I probably would have preferred that, too, at least on a creative level, but in an era when top-selling books only hit 80 or 100k, you don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Those numbers are low, but they ARE numbers, and they're the core infrastructure of the entire industry. If digital doesn't pan out, or even if it starts strong, but proves unable to retain readership after 5 or 10 years, that core of readers buying physical copies will continue to be vitally important. There's already been backlash over some of the continuity changes, and I think changing everything (including recent BIG successes like Morrison's Batman and Blackest Night) risks seriously alienating that core.

Another thing to consider: DC's strong trade program. You outright cut megasellers like Blackest Night, Killing Joke, or Identity Crisis and you're losing tons of recurring yearly revenue. If you could magically know a reboot would double, triple, quadruple the overall readership, it might be worth it, but that's utterly impossible. So DC made a somewhat frustrating, but understandable choice: keep the popular stuff and continue selling the trade paperbacks that popularized it, revamp the mid-tier concepts to see if they can get a boost.

It's sound business.

Exactly.

And as said as I am to say it they have to alter the stuff that wasn't doing too well like Superman, Teen Titans, and Wonder Woman so they can find a wider audience.

[Slewo.O]

They aren't changing Green Lantern was sort of my point. For this to work, they should have carried over NO continuity. Start with new origins, then take us 2 years into the career of the Trinity. Instead, they want to claim they're changing everything while instead just making things more complicated.

If it was a step forward she'd still be her own hero. She hasn't worn a bat in 22 years, and now she's Batgirl again. It may be an in-story change, but it's regression just as much as Nightwing is.

If they change Green Lantern they're screwing themselves over. They're not going to alter Green Lantern when it's the most popular it's ever been. If they want it to work it's simple enough to fudge an explanation for the Green Lantern line to exist the way it does post-Flashpoint. Same goes for Batman. These are comic books. If it really complicates your reading of Wonder Woman or Flash wondering how Green Lantern fits well... :?

I'm willing to bet that it won't based on who's writing Nightwing and Batgirl. As much as I hate to admit it, Dick is more recognizable as Nightwing than as Batman. As much as I loved his run it was always going to be this way. As for Barbara? No idea. I guess it's because she's appeared as Batgirl in other media and almost never as Oracle. Same idea there. It's about exposure.

That's the same reason the Green Lantern line isn't being altered. All four GLs have appeared in other forms of media. As are the other multiple-colored Lanterns. Why do you think the Red Lanterns are the only ones getting a comic?

[Slewo.O]

The other thing to consider is that the audience DC is aiming for doesn't care about where all this stuff fits in. At least not initially. They're aiming for teenagers rather than adults who are gonna wanna read cool comics. Simple as that. Look at the (for lack of a better word) top tier books they're putting out. They're also sprinkling more variety than there was previously.

[Hugin]

I probably would have preferred that, too, at least on a creative level, but in an era when top-selling books only hit 80 or 100k, you don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Those numbers are low, but they ARE numbers, and they're the core infrastructure of the entire industry. If digital doesn't pan out, or even if it starts strong, but proves unable to retain readership after 5 or 10 years, that core of readers buying physical copies will continue to be vitally important. There's already been backlash over some of the continuity changes, and I think changing everything (including recent BIG successes like Morrison's Batman and Blackest Night) risks seriously alienating that core. The creative level is what matters, especially when trying to attract new readers. Focusing on not losing anything may help in the short term, but it's death in the long run.

And you could mitigate the damage somewhat by writing an ending to the stories. Throwing out Brightest Day after promising that it would "change everything forever" would be a dick move. Using Brightest Day to bring the Earth into balance and move those 12 beyond the petty concerns of our world could be a really good ending, naturally leading into a new setting for new stories.


Another thing to consider: DC's strong trade program. You outright cut megasellers like Blackest Night, Killing Joke, or Identity Crisis and you're losing tons of recurring yearly revenue. If you could magically know a reboot would double, triple, quadruple the overall readership, it might be worth it, but that's utterly impossible. So DC made a somewhat frustrating, but understandable choice: keep the popular stuff and continue selling the trade paperbacks that popularized it, revamp the mid-tier concepts to see if they can get a boost.Killing Joke was never meant to be in-continuity in the first place. It will still sell despite not 'mattering'. Identity Crisis...well, I can't think of a reason someone would still buy it, but that's partly because I can't think of a reason someone would buy it now anyways. Blackest Night would be a loss, but there's no success without risk.


It's sound business.Having the band play while the Titanic sank was a good business decision, too, but it didn't exactly help.

[Slewo.O]

The creative level is what matters, especially when trying to attract new readers. Focusing on not losing anything may help in the short term, but it's death in the long run.

And you could mitigate the damage somewhat by writing an ending to the stories. Throwing out Brightest Day after promising that it would "change everything forever" would be a dick move. Using Brightest Day to bring the Earth into balance and move those 12 beyond the petty concerns of our world could be a really good ending, naturally leading into a new setting for new stories.

Killing Joke was never meant to be in-continuity in the first place. It will still sell despite not 'mattering'. Identity Crisis...well, I can't think of a reason someone would still buy it, but that's partly because I can't think of a reason someone would buy it now anyways. Blackest Night would be a loss, but there's no success without risk.

Having the band play while the Titanic sank was a good business decision, too, but it didn't exactly help.

I never thought there was any doubt to Brightest Day still being in-continuity... It also setup a bunch of comics focusing on the 12 so there is reverberation no?

The whole point of people dropping stuff is due to stories not "mattering" no? KJ isn't immune to that, I imagine if they're keeping it in-continuity it still plays a role. That and I'd imagine with new-readers there'll be people unfamiliar with the book.

How is this a bad business decision? They're taking it seriously enough and actually doing something different with marketing. Ripping away their two biggest lines would be a terrible idea. I don't see how using BD as a setup for different stories without keeping BN in would work anyway.

[Hugin]

If they change Green Lantern they're screwing themselves over. They're not going to alter Green Lantern when it's the most popular it's ever been. If they want it to work it's simple enough to fudge an explanation for the Green Lantern line to exist the way it does post-Flashpoint. Same goes for Batman. These are comic books. If it really complicates your reading of Wonder Woman or Flash wondering how Green Lantern fits well... :?It does, primarily because there's 4 GLs in 5 years. As well as Blackest Night etc. And Hal came around after Superman. It's the same stupid time-warping that we're getting out of Robin.


I'm willing to bet that it won't based on who's writing Nightwing and Batgirl. As much as I hate to admit it, Dick is more recognizable as Nightwing than as Batman. As much as I loved his run it was always going to be this way. As for Barbara? No idea. I guess it's because she's appeared as Batgirl in other media and almost never as Oracle. Same idea there. It's about exposure.So it's about sales instead of about writing good books. Can you understand why, as someone who is being asked to pay money for these books, I care more about quality than potential sales?


That's the same reason the Green Lantern line isn't being altered. All four GLs have appeared in other forms of media. As are the other multiple-colored Lanterns. Why do you think the Red Lanterns are the only ones getting a comic?Which is, again, DC's fault. If they'd picked a Lantern and stuck with him for all other media, they would have better recognition. Instead, half the country was shocked that they made Green Lantern a white guy for the movie.


The other thing to consider is that the audience DC is aiming for doesn't care about where all this stuff fits in. At least not initially. They're aiming for teenagers rather than adults who are gonna wanna read cool comics. Simple as that. Look at the (for lack of a better word) top tier books they're putting out. They're also sprinkling more variety than there was previously.Do you think that 30 years of continuity being compressed into 5 with writers tripping over each other figuring out how it will fit together will improve quality?

[Slewo.O]

It does, primarily because there's 4 GLs in 5 years. As well as Blackest Night etc. And Hal came around after Superman. It's the same stupid time-warping that we're getting out of Robin.

So it's about sales instead of about writing good books. Can you understand why, as someone who is being asked to pay money for these books, I care more about quality than potential sales?

Which is, again, DC's fault. If they'd picked a Lantern and stuck with him for all other media, they would have better recognition. Instead, half the country was shocked that they made Green Lantern a white guy for the movie.

Do you think that 30 years of continuity being compressed into 5 with writers tripping over each other figuring out how it will fit together will improve quality?

I don't see why you can't do both... I don't think there was any doubt as to how they'd incorporate this continuity. If you're saying that this stuff doesn't work when it's out and in the market I wouldn't disagree. But when you're calling what DC is doing the titanic when absolutely nothing has come out from this line yet, you can understand I'd call foul right?L

Not to sour your feelings as a reader but it's a simple truth that DC has to do what's good for their bottom line if they don't want to just become an IP farm for Warner. If that means keeping 4 GLs instead of just 1 within five years I can deal. Compressed continuity shouldn't ruin a story, badly written stories do. There's no reason why they can't tell good stories and do what's good for sales. If these writers are good they shouldn't have a problem working under those circumstances.

As for the GL line... I'm certain they'd plot this out. There's a pretty simple set of circumstances to work forward from since BN and BD are here.

That and nothing wrong with where they're going with GL. They kept all four, they're pushing people who have watched the movie to check out those comics. Also to illustrate my other point, the Red Lanterns are the first main villains in the new GL cartoon. Which kind of informs why they have a book. ;)

[Hugin]

I never thought there was any doubt to Brightest Day still being in-continuity... It also setup a bunch of comics focusing on the 12 so there is reverberation no?That's what I mean. They set BD up so it had to stay in-continuity or the readers would be cheated. If they'd written it as an ending instead of a beginning, it no longer being in continuity wouldn't matter.


How is this a bad business decision? They're taking it seriously enough and actually doing something different with marketing. Ripping away their two biggest lines would be a terrible idea. I don't see how using BD as a setup for different stories without keeping BN in would work anyway.Throwing the baby out with the bathwater is the only way you get an empty tub. If it works, you can reintroduce the baby later. DC is trying to get new readers, putting a lot of money and effort into it, but those readers are going to be picking up #1 books that have just been through 3 mega-crossover events in 3 years, all of which are still in continuity. If people are avoiding comics because they're too confusing, I don't think that will help much.

[Slewo.O]

That's what I mean. They set BD up so it had to stay in-continuity or the readers would be cheated. If they'd written it as an ending instead of a beginning, it no longer being in continuity wouldn't matter.

Throwing the baby out with the bathwater is the only way you get an empty tub. If it works, you can reintroduce the baby later. DC is trying to get new readers, putting a lot of money and effort into it, but those readers are going to be picking up #1 books that have just been through 3 mega-crossover events in 3 years, all of which are still in continuity. If people are avoiding comics because they're too confusing, I don't think that will help much.

As I remember BD DID have an ending. It barely had anything to do with GL and the characters spinning off from BD don't seem to require that story.

Look at the solicits. None of those seem to require any prior reading including Batman or GL. Keeping those stories in-continuity like BN won't hinder that. Considering these are new #1s, the point is to be as new reader-friendly as possible. If a writer knows what they're doing, they'll be able to introduce a reader to the world, no matter how wide it is. That's their job. The only people that are actually worried about this stuff, people like us have nothing to worry about. Just enjoy the stories for what they are instead of making a damn map. :)

I'm not trying to talk down to you. It'd just be nice to see people enjoy reading comics.

[Slewo.O]

Anyway I'm gonna go to sleep. It was an enjoyable talk Hugin.

[Hugin]

Not to sour your feelings as a reader but it's a simple truth that DC has to do what's good for their bottom line if they don't want to just become an IP farm for Warner. If that means keeping 4 GLs instead of just 1 within five years I can deal. Compressed continuity shouldn't ruin a story, badly written stories do. There's no reason why they can't tell good stories and do what's good for sales. If these writers are good they shouldn't have a problem working under those circumstances.Well-written stories are good for sales. Gimmicks, mega-crossovers, and media hype may help for a month, but if you want to keep the boost, you have to keep pulling the same tricks, and eventually people grow immune.


As for the GL line... I'm certain they'd plot this out. There's a pretty simple set of circumstances to work forward from since BN and BD are here.You seem to have faith that DC editorial is intelligent. I'm fairly certain that they aren't. That may be our main point of disagreement. I seriously doubt that they planned any of this until about 6 months before the announcement, at best.


That and nothing wrong with where they're going with GL. They kept all four, they're pushing people who have watched the movie to check out those comics. Also to illustrate my other point, the Red Lanterns are the first main villains in the new GL cartoon. Which kind of informs why they have a book. ;)I get why they kept all 4, I just don't think it's a good idea. If they'd gone with Jon in the movie, and in more of the animated adaptations, they would have a more consistent face for "Green Lantern" in the public eye as well as being able to trim some of the GL titles.

[Hugin]

'Kay, night.

[Bedlam66]

As a retailer I've largely stopped keeping up with the fandom reaction online. It's interesting at times, but online reactions so rarely mirror actual sales patterns that online punditry is often an exhausting distraction.

For instance, I see a lot of sturm und drang on this board, but at my shop, with admittedly a good bit of work on our part to ease customers in, excitement is high, subscriptions to new titles are rolling in, sales are decidedly up, and truthfully, none of my customers are even talking about digital. Throughout the entire last year, with its many experiments in day-and-date digital release, I saw no significant effect on sales. Although I'll be watching digital sales patterns closely, the current model DC's presenting gives me hope that digital will primarily be for bringing in new readers, and I think we'll keep most of our customers just fine and hopefully see an influx of newbies drawn in through digital and DC's accompanying marketing campaign.

What we've done is to insure we're versed on the upcoming titles, post a folder at the counter with all 52 solicits and a thumbnail of their covers, and have a handy checklist of all the books to simply hand to our subscribers to update with the new titles they want to add. Honestly, even if I despised the changes on a creative level (and while I've got some concerns, I'm more enthused than not) we'd still be doing this. It's our job.

But on a philosophical level, I've long felt fans need to come more to terms with the mutability of corporate comics. These books perpetuate for decade upon decade upon decade and pass through the hands of so many creators that I think it'd just be healthier for blood pressures everywhere to relax a little on the inevitability of change for favorite heroes. DC characters, who've always tended a bit more toward iconic and larger-than-life than Marvel, are particularly resilient. Brooding 1939 Batman was cool and 60s campy Batman was cool and craggy Dark Knight Batman was cool and slyly family friendly Brave and the Bold Batman is cool.

I don't mean to disparage fans of continuity. I understand the emotional investment. I just think that over-investment is destined to bring tough times because corporate books are destined to change with creative teams and the spirit of the times. It's the weakness of serial stories over decades, but it's also their strength. The can renew, they can be reborn.

Tomorrow my co-manager is hitting up the DC retailer expo in Dallas and hopefully it won't be a Bob Wayne douche-fest. I've seen him be douchey once or twice, though not egregiously so for a guy in his position.

My quick retailer assessment of DC's relaunch efforts is "so far, so good."

Can U break down the Incentives and Return Policys for us. I was talking to the owner of my Shop and While I can't remember all the numbers it seems like everything Is geared to the bigger guys like DCBS Mile High Etc and that the Little guys are getting Screwed over by these "deals"

[Slewo.O]

Well-written stories are good for sales. Gimmicks, mega-crossovers, and media hype may help for a month, but if you want to keep the boost, you have to keep pulling the same tricks, and eventually people grow immune.

You seem to have faith that DC editorial is intelligent. I'm fairly certain that they aren't. That may be our main point of disagreement. I seriously doubt that they planned any of this until about 6 months before the announcement, at best.

I get why they kept all 4, I just don't think it's a good idea. If they'd gone with Jon in the movie, and in more of the animated adaptations, they would have a more consistent face for "Green Lantern" in the public eye as well as being able to trim some of the GL titles.

Isn't that the idea behind this? DC hasn't done a big mega-crossover that requires all hands on deck since BN. The whole idea behind this and Flashpoint would infer that they're going to be keeping away from crossovers. They'd screw up what they're doing if they just kept doing crossovers. And as much as we don't talk about it, Marvel and DC do crossovers because they sell. Once they realize readers don't want it, they're gonna stop em. DC hopefully got the message.

As far as I'm concerned they do have a consistent face. They've been pushing Hal since JLU ended in the main title and animated adaptions. Not as familiar but they knew what direction they wanted to go.

I'll also re-iterate, GL was DC's top-selling line. In the wake of what's going on now, it makes sense to keep pushing onward with what's worked. I'll bet on them making that work with GL. Especially since Geoff Johns is directly involved with GL and as one of DC's leading execs. If they want this thing to work, they're not gonna screw the pooch.

Anyway that is the absolute last post, I swear. :lol:

[K-DoG7p7]

From my experience retailers have never been nice to DC
How often don't we hear on this board and on twitter people complaining to Gail that their LCS under orders her titles

[Kevin T Brown]

From my experience retailers have never been nice to DC
How often don't we hear on this board and on twitter people complaining to Gail that their LCS under orders her titles

The LCS I went to for YEARS was always pretty good idea in gauging what could be sold. He was one of the very few that I knew of that actually ordered exactly what he knew he could sell.

However, other retailers I have visited had mixed results. Most of the retailers I've seen over the decades tend to over order Marvel and under order DC. They'd rather have 20 extra copies of some X-titles that probably won't sell rather than 1 extra copy of any DC.

[The Hodag]

Can U break down the Incentives and Return Policys for us. I was talking to the owner of my Shop and While I can't remember all the numbers it seems like everything Is geared to the bigger guys like DCBS Mile High Etc and that the Little guys are getting Screwed over by these "deals"

Hang tight for a bit. Got the DC expo today and I should be getting better info.

[Weeto]

DC don't understand that most of their current release schedule seems to resemble games 5-7 of a World Series in which one team is 4-0 up. Totally pointless.

If there had been a decent period of time to wrap things up in then people might have kept buying but it seems incredibly dumb to buy comics that you might only have a mild interest in when they're basically going to be cancelled in a couple of months.

[BClayMoore]

DC don't understand that most of their current release schedule seems to resemble games 5-7 of a World Series in which one team is 4-0 up. Totally pointless.

If there had been a decent period of time to wrap things up in then people might have kept buying but it seems incredibly dumb to buy comics that you might only have a mild interest in when they're basically going to be cancelled in a couple of months.

I'm not sure what a "decent time" would be. Seems to me the longer you waited, the more chance you'd have of losing more sales.

-BCM

[Dreg]

I only dropped one DC book, because that was all I had on my pull list. I'm buying plenty of Marvel, though, so my LCBS isn't hurting.

[Marcdachamp]

I dropped my pull list after the announcement of the reboot. My LCS sent me an email and tried in the nicest way possible to get me to stick with my comics. As my faves were the ones getting rebooted rather than relaunched (secret six, birds of prey, steph batgirl, powergirl...) I went ahead and dropped. The money adds up. Keep buying (knowing that some of these books were given very little time to wrap up) or save the funds and see what happens come Sept? Save the money, save the money, save the money!

But, my LCS tried to keep me. They made an attempt. They didn't just do nothing and aren't just sitting on their hands. Would really like to see the transcript from this and see what really happened.

Wow. That's a shame, because it sounds like you have a great LCS. Believe me, they can be hard to come by, sometimes. After mine closed up shop, I tried a few other stores before switching to DCBS.

[BClayMoore]

I don't think people who wanted DC to take "more time" are thinking this out very clearly.

The only way to do this is to announce it as close to solicitation as possible, to prevent losing months and months of sales from people who care "what happens."

DC is going to have huge numbers in September, but I do worry about the new new books that retailers don't have any points of comparison from which to draw estimated sales. Things like I, Vampire, Blackhawks and Sgt. Rock.

-BCM

[Chrysame]

Wow. That's a shame, because it sounds like you have a great LCS. Believe me, they can be hard to come by, sometimes. After mine closed up shop, I tried a few other stores before switching to DCBS.

My LCS rocks. Vintage Phoenix in Bloomington, IN. *kermitflail* I'm a woman in my forties and I've always been very welcome there. No weird stuff because of my age or gender. But, then I look like everyone's mom and who wants to mean to mom? They knew me and pulled my stuff as soon as I walked in the door. Love those guys. I will be back in Sept. to try out a couple of books and buy some fun stuff for my office. Seriously, there are some great LCS out there. You hear about the bad ones all the time. I like promoting the good ones. Like mine!

[longbowhunter]

My local retailer has been doing a great job. They have highlighted and pointed me in the direction of many IDW and Dark Horse books. They also have all the Marvel and DC books displayed right by the door....its not their fault that nobody's buying them. Even the guys in the comic stores have no clue what to make of this reboot/relaunch that DC is doing.Actually,Marvel has been doing pretty good according to the guys at my LCS...lots of people coming in and buying Thor and Iron Man and Cap books because of the movies. They were hoping that Green Lantern was going to generate the same kind of traffic...hopefully it does.

[RobStaeger]

Yeah, best to do it as quickly as possible, in my mind. With the 3 month lead time of previews, this is the closest DC can get to pulling off the bandaid quickly.

[Weeto]

I was thinking that doing the relaunch more slowly would have gave DC time to give most of the current titles fitting finales which would have brought in readers rather than losing them.

[RobStaeger]

I'm not certain that won't be the case, Weeto. I think BoP is probably an aberration, since it essentially ended two months early. From the solicitations, most of the August books seem prepared to give the stories endings. Some are even double-shipping (Titans, Gates of Gotham) to make that happen.

[BClayMoore]

I was thinking that doing the relaunch more slowly would have gave DC time to give most of the current titles fitting finales which would have brought in readers rather than losing them.

Then it's not a marketable event, and you give readers and retailers more of a chance to cherry pick.

I also don't think they're going to lose many readers. The relaunched books will all debut with higher numbers than the books they're replacing are averaging now.

-BCM

[The Xenos]

It's looking more and more like I'm going to drop DC books flat out. Though I'm gonna try not to screw over my shop by trying out more Image books and a couple others. Maybe try more Vertigo as I don't want DC to drop that line to make everything straight up DC Comics. Might even try going back for some Marvel. Well, maybe just Rucka's Punisher. I started picking up Archie's Mega Man.

The trick being that I get most non-Image, non-DC/Vertigo books at another store. Id' been balancing between the two with a number of DC titles. Now I just can't be bothered with DC books.

Meanwhile I'm gonna get these last few DC books from the pre soft reboot as I can. I'll even take those fill in issues of BoP as much as I sadly bought Gail's last one. They can take those last issues of Secret Six from my cold dead hands.

So I really don't want to hurt the local shop if I do decide to skip this silly messed up relaunch. I just can't stomach DC dicking around with its fans anymore.

[The Xenos]

I was thinking that doing the relaunch more slowly would have gave DC time to give most of the current titles fitting finales which would have brought in readers rather than losing them.
That's maybe the worst of it. DC is practically stopping a ton of these books mid sentence. Birds of Prey ended with leaving the team with what seemed to be the start of a new status quo to be explored. Now we get a fill in two parter, which I was looking forward to and still intend to buy. Then ..a whole new number one issue with.. hell.. it sounds like a damn alternate universe. And DC is giving readers and retailers NOTHING to go on as to how this connects to the series they just canceled that shared the same title.

Yet somehow this is the retailer's fault, not DC editorial for making what seems like a completely different book with the same name on it and a new #1 slapped on it.

Man. To be a fly on the wall at that conference.

[BClayMoore]

That's maybe the worst of it. DC is practically stopping a ton of these books mid sentence. Birds of Prey ended with leaving the team with what seemed to be the start of a new status quo to be explored. Now we get a fill in two parter, which I was looking forward to and still intend to buy. Then ..a whole new number one issue with.. hell.. it sounds like a damn alternate universe. And DC is giving readers and retailers NOTHING to go on as to how this connects to the series they just canceled that shared the same title.

Yet somehow this is the retailer's fault, not DC editorial for making what seems like a completely different book with the same name on it and a new #1 slapped on it.

Man. To be a fly on the wall at that conference.


DC is handing good retailers the opportunity to boost their sales and build a new audience from the ashes of the old one.

I think DC knows that a small number of readers will make a lot of noise, but that in the end they won't negatively impact their sales.

-BCM

[Infra-Man]

Anyone know if some of this reboot/renumbering was cooked up by some of the WB people rather than just DC editorial on its own?

[stealthwise]

Then it's not a marketable event, and you give readers and retailers more of a chance to cherry pick.

I also don't think they're going to lose many readers. The relaunched books will all debut with higher numbers than the books they're replacing are averaging now.

-BCM

What's the dropoff going to be though? I think you'll have some initial higher sales, but only because there's going to be a "let's see how many of these we can sell" attitude about it. My prediction is a huge decline after some exploration, and I don't think that, say, Grifter will outsell the 6,000 units that most Wildstorm books were selling after the first month or so. Retailers aren't stupid.

[BClayMoore]

What's the dropoff going to be though? I think you'll have some initial higher sales, but only because there's going to be a "let's see how many of these we can sell" attitude about it. My prediction is a huge decline after some exploration, and I don't think that, say, Grifter will outsell the 6,000 units that most Wildstorm books were selling after the first month or so. Retailers aren't stupid.

Sure, sure. There will be some books that sink quickly, but I'll bet you the frontline books do better than they have in a while. And pissing on DC for attempting some new concepts (or for revamping some old concepts that we haven't seen for a while) seems hypocritical.

Putting aside my concerns as a creator...as a reader, I haven't been able to follow continuity at DC for years. This is a great chance to hopefully climb on board some new/old books for a good, long run.

-BCM

[RobStaeger]

There'll definitely be a big dropoff -- DC is making the books returnable, to a certain extent. There's a formula involving the retailer's DCU order for a previous month, and also there's a fee for returning to discourage insane over-ordering, but retailers will be more willing to take a chance on unknown books because of it.. and even if they hit, there's likely to be a dropoff from the initial orders because of it.

But something like Grifter in the DCU is an entirely different sales possibility than Grifter in the backwater Wildstorm universe. If they take care to integrate him with the DCU proper, I suspect he'll pull in much better numbers. Because he'll "matter," and that has weight with some fans.

[Tyburn]

As a consumer of DC comics for years I have every right to express disappointment with the cancellation of certain titles I enjoy. Furthermore the communication by DC has been subpar. They say this will help with the continuity that they have allowed to become revamped and super-punched so often, even frequent readers are confused. However, the tidbits we have been given and pieced together so far seems to be a hodgepog of past stories along with what appear to be cliche re-characterizations and regressive storylines that leave me at a bigger loss then ever. Personally, I would have been more excited over a real restart/relaunch/re-imagining. Also, I am not pleased with the lack of certain characters and creators in the announcements so far. That being said, there are some titles I am definitely interested in. Some creators I am excited to see back as well. It's not a black and white thing.

[The Xenos]

Visited my old store back home today. He hit financial troubles and fell out with Diamond. So he's floating by on old stock and tourists stopping in. I keep giving him news about this. He says he's almost glad he's out of the game. Hell, he's still half in disbelief that DC is dropping numbers like Action and 'Tec back to one. He is convinced they're gonna have small original numbers inside or on the cover in small print. That or renumber back down the line. He's amazed that DC is doing this so suddenly and not expecting a huge backlash from fans.

[Slewo.O]

Visited my old store back home today. He hit financial troubles and fell out with Diamond. So he's floating by on old stock and tourists stopping in. I keep giving him news about this. He says he's almost glad he's out of the game. Hell, he's still half in disbelief that DC is dropping numbers like Action and 'Tec back to one. He is convinced they're gonna have small original numbers inside or on the cover in small print. That or renumber back down the line. He's amazed that DC is doing this so suddenly and not expecting a huge backlash from fans.

No offense to him but does your retailer (were he still in cahoots with Diamond) really expect to have an easy time selling Action Comics #902 to a new comics reader as opposed to Action Comics #1? that's the idea behind this.

As for a renumbering? I doubt they'll re-number in a year. DC doesn't go overboard with that like Marvel does. If anything I wouldn't expect Action and Detective to regain their numbering till the next 100th issue. And that won't be for a while.

As for numbers in small print... I don't quite get how that fits. :lol:

[Slewo.O]

Sure, sure. There will be some books that sink quickly, but I'll bet you the frontline books do better than they have in a while. And pissing on DC for attempting some new concepts (or for revamping some old concepts that we haven't seen for a while) seems hypocritical.

Putting aside my concerns as a creator...as a reader, I haven't been able to follow continuity at DC for years. This is a great chance to hopefully climb on board some new/old books for a good, long run.

-BCM
Isn't it amazing? I've been following DC since 52 was coming out and I remember people complaining that DC should start fresh or do something different... Well here it is people. :)

[t.c.johnson]

Isn't it amazing? I've been following DC since 52 was coming out and I remember people complaining that DC should start fresh or do something different... Well here it is people. :)

Was it on this board that people were asking for it?

And this is nor a fresh start. I would be elated about a DCU without Identity Crisis or 52 and they start over. That is not what is happening.

[Kevin T Brown]

Isn't it amazing? I've been following DC since 52 was coming out and I remember people complaining that DC should start fresh or do something different... Well here it is people. :)

I was saying that at the end of CoIE and then Zero Hour.... But, yeah, instead of OYL, DC should have just blown everything up at the end of 52 and then have it come back together with the multiverse intact. And not just 52 worlds, too.

[Corrina]

Well, when I tell my teenage daughter to go change her clothes because she's wearing a miniskirt, I want her to put on something better, not come back wearing ripped jeans and a belly shirt.

[Slewo.O]

Was it on this board that people were asking for it?

And this is nor a fresh start. I would be elated about a DCU without Identity Crisis or 52 and they start over. That is not what is happening.

No, I was more talking about the net in general. Also whether or not Identity Crisis and 52 still play a role it doesn't matter. This is a fresh start and I'm not talking about continuity. New #1s and most of the books are starting without a requirement of deep prior knowledge. Its pretty fresh to me and more importantly people who don't read DC or comics.

Frankly whether or not Identity Crisis still happened isn't going to affect my enjoyment of Fury of Firestorm.

[Slewo.O]

Well, when I tell my teenage daughter to go change her clothes because she's wearing a miniskirt, I want her to put on something better, not come back wearing ripped jeans and a belly shirt.

Please please stop making me think of that new Suicide Squad cover... After reading that Legion of Doom book, it's definitely not getting bought either.

[t.c.johnson]

Frankly whether or not Identity Crisis still happened isn't going to affect my enjoyment of Fury of Firestorm.

Yeah, but they did make changes to the DCU that has affected how many DC comics I get...which is at this point very very few.

[Slewo.O]

Yeah, but they did make changes to the DCU that has affected how many DC comics I get...which is at this point very very few.

Different strokes different folks man. :?

I'm personally happy the Green Lantern and Batman train is still chugging along mostly un-interrupted. I was enjoying that stuff. Am I sad to see books like Secret Six go or certain stories I dislike get kept? Absolutely. But so far I'm satisfied with what's here and I'm excited for it all.

[BClayMoore]

Visited my old store back home today. He hit financial troubles and fell out with Diamond. So he's floating by on old stock and tourists stopping in. I keep giving him news about this. He says he's almost glad he's out of the game. Hell, he's still half in disbelief that DC is dropping numbers like Action and 'Tec back to one. He is convinced they're gonna have small original numbers inside or on the cover in small print. That or renumber back down the line. He's amazed that DC is doing this so suddenly and not expecting a huge backlash from fans.

The guy is trying to run a comic shop without a Diamond account, and is questioning DC's business sense?

Sigh.

-BCM

[BilbyCoder]

For me there is one thing that won't be known until after September.

The quality of the books. People keep pre-judging the quality of the stories in the titles that will be released post September. We don't know what the quality will be. I am confident that it will vary, and that not all the books will survive, but hey... I liked Blue Beetle when it was being published OYL. Books come and go as it is.

At the moment no one knows what the books will be like. If the quality is crap and the relaunch a disaster I will quite happily light up a pitchfork (or whatever). I will take my money and I will walk away as a consumer should. I probbably won't decry their efforts to the world because I will just walk away.

I am annoyed that Secret Six got cancelled. I absolutely hate the new Harley design. But realistically DC and I will never see completely eye to eye until I own it and publish every book. Suicide Squad will have to do some exceptional storytelling to get me passed my negative reaction to the tile. But Blue Beetle is back, Demon Knights looks really interesting, I love anthology books which feature B (C? D?) list characters (52 was great as far as I was concerned, but I am in the group of people that didn't like Killing Joke or Identity Crisis).

Finally, my hope is that the relaunch will be about giving the characters foundations and building up stories and supporting casts. The reliance of event comics, even ones I like (such as Blackest Night and Final Crisis) means that the stakes need to be raised. To do that we start seeing character deaths. This is the first DC move I've seen that is about building up characters, not ripping away at their lives. We have lost some great characters from the front lines (Stephanie being the key one for me) but if we get 3 more new ones that are great then it was worth it.

I think the best thing people can do is accept that what is happening can't be stopped at this point. I'm not going to deny myself good stories, I will look at reviews, I will check out first issues. But I will not reward DC for crap by buying titles I don't like. I will reward them for good stories, and hope enough other people like the titles I like that they will be the ones to survive and thrive.

[BClayMoore]

Luckily, quality is about fifth on the list of why a comic book sells.

-BCM

[Danimal]

Reading through all of this, I think DC may have announced the relaunch too soon. While I think there are going to be a lot of non-hardcore fans that are going to get excited by the idea, a lot of the hardcore ones clearly aren't happy. Of course, as BCM suggests, if the relaunch is successful, DC won't miss some of the fans they lose over this as they will be bringing in new ones. However, by spilling the beans well in advance, they are giving those same fans time to reflect on doom and gloom scenarios and the like. I think my problem with the relaunch is that it is too focused on trying to update characters and may be losing elements of what makes these characters timeless. I would be much more strongly in favor of the idea if the goal was "getting to the recognizable essence" of characters, or basically what people are aware of when they think of someone like Superman, as opposed to saying "the trunks over the tights are hokey. Let's give him a vaguely armored look."

[Danimal]

Luckily, quality is about fifth on the list of why a comic book sells.

-BCM

With dinosaurs, giant apes, and robots being the top three reasons.

[Patrick Gerard]

Luckily, quality is about fifth on the list of why a comic book sells.

-BCM

Heck, what I've never understood is that the top 4 or so reasons are all relatively easy and, yet, you have a ton of writers and editors who have historically shunned them in favor of quality when they should be doing all five.

[BClayMoore]

Heck, what I've never understood is that the top 4 or so reasons are all relatively easy and, yet, you have a ton of writers and editors who have historically shunned them in favor of quality when they should be doing all five.

Reason 1: Make them the X-Men.

-BCM

[Chrysame]

I saw on dcwomenkickingass that DC has said it's targeting a male audience ages 18-34.
Does that mean that a woman is out of luck and a woman over 34 is SOL?

I feel so wanted. /endsarcasm

[RobStaeger]

Yep. Which is why you've never enjoyed a DC comic, ever.

[Patrick Gerard]

Reason 1: Make them the X-Men.

-BCM

Is Reason 2: Make them the Avengers?

[BClayMoore]

Is Reason 2: Make them the Avengers?

As of right now, it seems to be. :)

-BCM

[Chrysame]

Yep. Which is why you've never enjoyed a DC comic, ever.

No, but I am getting tired of being discounted. Tired of supporting an industry with my dollars (worth even more in this economy) that doesn't care about females. It's discouraging to say the least. But, hey, they don't want my money that's a-okay. They won't get it.

[RobStaeger]

I'm tired of getting discounted in the statements they make to retailers at their private sales meetings, too. It's a good thing some of the comics they publish still entertain me, or else I'd quit reading them.

[Slewo.O]

Hahaahaha! It is so nice to see my age group getting considered first. Hope you suckers enjoy comics definitely not aimed at you! :)

*note that this is a joke*

[Chrysame]

Oh, you think it's funny, Slew-O? Well, time out for you, young man! And don't leave before I tell you or you'll lose your television privileges, too!

[Cassandra]

The quality of the books. People keep pre-judging the quality of the stories in the titles that will be released post September. We don't know what the quality will be.
At this stage how else are we supposed to know other than by judging what has happened in the past? This is one place where DC has really screwed up the re-boot announcements. They released covers and the names of creative teams to get people excited without much else to go on. If you were eating a delicious pizza and someone took it away and showed you a picture of another pizza and said 'you can have this in September, you'll like it!' what would you think? Be pissed that someone took the delicious pizza you were currently enjoying or get really excited that you can have new pizza in September?

Right now we are judging books by their cover and creative teams because DC has not given us any other choice. Can I make an over-all judge of the quality of a book before reading it? No. But can I look at the cover of the new Hawk and Dove with Rob Liefeld on pencils and already know that despite how freaking awesome the story may be I'd never touch that thing with my own hands? Yes.

While we cannot be 100% sure of whether we will actually like a book or not come September I think any feelings of caution and confusion are warranted and I think brushing them off simply of people complaining for nothing is an insult. We're all different. If you're excited about the reboot, great. That's your business but not everyone is and just because I may not be picking up as many DC books in September as I have in the past doesn't make me less of a fan.

[The Xenos]

At this stage how else are we supposed to know other than by judging what has happened in the past? This is one place where DC has really screwed up the re-boot announcements. They released covers and the names of creative teams to get people excited without much else to go on. If you were eating a delicious pizza and someone took it away and showed you a picture of another pizza and said 'you can have this in September, you'll like it!' what would you think? Be pissed that someone took the delicious pizza you were currently enjoying or get really excited that you can have new pizza in September?


I love this analogy... and now I'm kinda hungry too..