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View Full Version : A few questions for the Battlestar Galactica people out there... (SPOILERS)



The Hodag
06-12-2011, 10:48 PM
I watched up through season three or four, and while I always liked a lot of incidental moments, I stopped watching because the big picture stuff was losing me. I wanted the destination to be as good as the journey and it really seemed like it couldn't be.

But it's been on my mind lately and I was half thinking of watching the series from beginning to end. But first I had a few questions for anyone who'll indulge me, questions that will probably determine if I'd find the last few seasons satisfying. Spoilers are fine here.

1) Did they ever give a concrete explanation of Baltar's visions of Number Six?

2) What was the goal of the Cylons?

3) Was there any kind of scientific explanation for various visions and prophecies, or were they effectively mystical in nature?

Jason California
06-12-2011, 10:54 PM
1) Did they ever give a concrete explanation of Baltar's visions of Number Six?

No. Not clear. More clues though.

2) What was the goal of the Cylons?

To teach a lesson

3) Was there any kind of scientific explanation for various visions and prophecies, or were they effectively mystical in nature?

Lots of questions you are left to interpret yourself, definitely something spiritual in nature

The Hodag
06-12-2011, 11:06 PM
Dang, that sounds frustrating to me. I broadly knew that there was spiritual type stuff near the finale, but I was hoping it might've been tempered by some sci-fi explanations. You, like instead of GOD, there might be a godlike computer. Prophecies could be the results of uber complex calculations, their results simply delivered in ways meant to spur religious faith. Stuff like that.

Jason California
06-12-2011, 11:13 PM
Dang, that sounds frustrating to me. I broadly knew that there was spiritual type stuff near the finale, but I was hoping it might've been tempered by some sci-fi explanations. You, like instead of GOD, there might be a godlike computer. Prophecies could be the results of uber complex calculations, their results simply delivered in ways meant to spur religious faith. Stuff like that.

I am not sure how much to talk about in the event you want to watch it. I know you are not a fan of spoilers in general, so want to keep as vague as I can. You're explanation could be possible. The show tries to paint in very broad strokes leaving you to fill in a lot of details.

The Hodag
06-12-2011, 11:24 PM
I am not sure how much to talk about in the event you want to watch it. I know you are not a fan of spoilers in general, so want to keep as vague as I can. You're explanation could be possible. The show tries to paint in very broad strokes leaving you to fill in a lot of details.

See, I don't mind making some of the connections - one of my favorite horror movies is Mothman Prophecies, and it's largely open to interpretation - but the stakes seem higher when you've committed scores of hours to a story than when you've just committed two. With a long running series I do feel like some of the big stuff should be explained satisfactorily, and that's why the ending for Lost continues to frustrate (though I found it emotionally satisfying at the time).

In any case, like I said in the OP, spoilers are cool by me this time around. The show's got an uphill battle to win me over, but I kind of want it to, so if some big reveal might pique my interest, I'd rather know it.

The Hodag
06-12-2011, 11:41 PM
While I'm thinking about it, I'm gonna go watch the movie that kicked off the series. I've got that and the first season on DVD.

Jason California
06-13-2011, 12:02 AM
God could very well be a master Cylon AI from way back when. A constant idea through the show is that "This has all happened before, and it will all happen again,". Some of the details have changed, but the overall arc of man is the same repeated cycle.

The final 5 Cylons were Samuel Anders (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Samuel_Anders), Tory Foster (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Tory_Foster), Ellen Tigh (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Ellen_Tigh), Saul Tigh (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Saul_Tigh), and Galen Tyrol (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Galen_Tyrol). There were humanoid Cylons from the original Earth. They were the last survivors of war with that planets Cylons. They went to the 12 colonies in an attempt to change the path of man that time. They failed. They were also the source of skin job technology with the Caprica Cylons.

The show ends in modern era Earth. The Lucy skeleton has been discovered. Lucy was the Cylon/Human hybrid daughter of Athena and Helo. So every modern man has some Cylon in them. The 6 and Baltar avatars are talking about man, and how it is about that time again. Will humans be able to avoid near destruction again, or will they repeat the cycle? Modern man is beginning the down the steps to make the next robo Cylons. This cycle could have been played out hundreds of thousands of times.

The show Caprica introduced a virtual world that humans could enter, and the the original Cylons were free in. The Final 5 were in their own virtual world during their trip from their planet to Caprica. It was stated in an interview with with one of the creators that had there been a season 2 Chloe would have gone deep in the virtual world and connected to the virtual world the 5 were in. So these places are connected there is a web of the networks out there. What if God is a consciousness from the original run constantly rerunning the experiment with different variables until it works right?

The Hodag
06-13-2011, 12:08 AM
Okay, I'm processing all that and there's some stuff in there I like, but one quick aside: Lucy was Australopithecus afarensis, so far back on the evolutionary scale as to look something like a monkey with the ability to walk upright:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A.afarensis.jpg

Wouldn't a human/Cylon hybrid look essentially human, not like humanity's most primitive ancestor? Or did Galactica tweak history to suggest that Lucy was more or less human looking?

Oh, and thanks for such a comprehensive answer, Jason. :thumb: Anyone else wanting to chime in, do so. Now that the show's been over for, what, a year or two, I'm interested to hear how people think about it in retrospect.

Jason California
06-13-2011, 12:10 AM
Don't over think it.

c. page
06-13-2011, 12:12 AM
Okay, I'm processing all that and there's some stuff in there I like, but one quick aside: Lucy was Australopithecus afarensis, so far back on the evolutionary scale as to look something like a monkey with the ability to walk upright:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A.afarensis.jpg

Wouldn't a human/Cylon hybrid look essentially human, not like humanity's most primitive ancestor? Or did Galactica tweak history to suggest that Lucy was more or less human looking?

Oh, and thanks for such a comprehensive answer, Jason. :thumb: Anyone else wanting to chime in, do so. Now that the show's been over for, what, a year or two, I'm interested to hear how people think about it in retrospect.

The latter, although as Jason says, don't over think it. That was honestly my problem with the ending was that it seemed like they tried to get too clever with it.

dougmac
06-13-2011, 12:38 AM
I hated the last half of the last season but liked the show a lot until that point

c. page
06-13-2011, 12:44 AM
I hated the last half of the last season but liked the show a lot until that point

I enjoyed it up to about the last 20-30 minutes of the last episode. Given time, I've gotten used to it, and I'm okay with it, but overall, it was a weak ending that tried to be far too clever.

The Hodag
06-13-2011, 12:47 AM
Don't over think it.

Is that overthinking it? Lucy is famously uber-primitive. It doesn't seem crazy to me to ask for that minimal bit of knowledge from a story referencing her.

Jason California
06-13-2011, 12:48 AM
It is allegorical like the Bible. Not everything is supposed to fit nicely, as much as it was there to express ideas.

The Hodag
06-13-2011, 12:52 AM
As an aside, I did just start rewatching the launch miniseries, which I'd forgotten how much I liked. Early on Baltar is talking to Six and she brings up her religiousness. She asks him if it bothers him, and his response is a good summation of my struggle with the show's reliance on spiritual (read: magical) themes:


"It puzzles me that an intelligent, attractive woman such as yourself should be taken in by all of that mysticism and superstition, but I'm willing to overlook it on account of your other attributes."

Usually the show had enough cool stuff going on - superior acting and dialogue, great effects, great tone - that I was able to overlook what seemed like a bunch of wonky new-agey mysticism lurking in the background. I couldn't quite do it over the long haul, but I wonder...maybe on DVD, where there's no delay and I could just blaze through it all pretty fast...

Jason California
06-13-2011, 12:52 AM
I also think that most everyone in the show makes the worst possible decision in the most crucial times.

JohnBehling
06-13-2011, 12:53 AM
I also think that most everyone in the show makes the worst possible decision in the most crucial times.

Very much something Ron Moore & company were talking about in the show.

The Hodag
06-13-2011, 12:54 AM
It is allegorical like the Bible. Not everything is supposed to fit nicely, as much as it was there to express ideas.

Okay, I got you. The scene wasn't meant to read so specifically as it was to simply draw a meaningful connection between the show and modern discoveries about humanity's past.

The Hodag
06-13-2011, 12:54 AM
Jason, you obviously invested a decent bit in the show. Did you overall like it? Love it?

JohnBehling
06-13-2011, 12:59 AM
Jason, you obviously invested a decent bit in the show. Did you overall like it? Love it?

I loved it.
Easily my favorite show of the last decade.

The Hodag
06-13-2011, 01:03 AM
I loved it.
Easily my favorite show of the last decade.

Do you have any reservations about the big picture stuff, or did you find yourself embracing it all?

Jason California
06-13-2011, 01:04 AM
I had seen about 5 episodes here and there including the final episode during the shows run. After Caprica was over I went and watched it on a marathon Netflix session. While very frustrating, I enjoyed it. It is a very tragic story with a glimmer of hope at its core. I am glad I saw Caprica first.

And I think Rosalind Carter was worse for humanity that Baltar was.

Maestro
06-13-2011, 01:18 AM
I'm pretty sure the ending happened the way it did was because they kept saying over and over: "all of this has happened before, and all of it will happen again." The way they did it reinforces that message.

I thought the first season was brilliant and it quickly became one of my favorite TV shows ever. The second season was good, the third season was mostly good, but nothing beats the first. It's a lot like Lost in that respect, although it's much better than Lost

Fizz
06-13-2011, 01:33 AM
With a long running series I do feel like some of the big stuff should be explained satisfactorily, and that's why the ending for Lost continues to frustrate (though I found it emotionally satisfying at the time).


I think the finales for Lost and BSG are kinda similar in some aspects.

Some (not all) of the big stuff was left unexplained, some of the explanations didn't go over great with some fans, and things leaned more toward spirituality and faith than science. But there was emotionally satisfying closure with the characters.

Both Lost and BSG are still some of my favorite shows.

JohnBehling
06-13-2011, 01:36 AM
Do you have any reservations about the big picture stuff, or did you find yourself embracing it all?

Emotionally, the big picture, and the finale, felt right to me. My feelings about it were pretty visceral, but it worked, the characters felt like they all ended up in the right place.

The Hodag
06-13-2011, 07:14 AM
I'm very torn by the comparisons to LOST, a six-year love/hate relationship for me. :lol:

Having started rewatching the show, though, I'm kind of feelin' it.

The Hodag
06-13-2011, 07:15 AM
Aside from, say, Adama, who would you guys pick as your favorite character on the show?

Jef UK
06-13-2011, 07:48 AM
Dang, that sounds frustrating to me. I broadly knew that there was spiritual type stuff near the finale, but I was hoping it might've been tempered by some sci-fi explanations. You, like instead of GOD, there might be a godlike computer. Prophecies could be the results of uber complex calculations, their results simply delivered in ways meant to spur religious faith. Stuff like that.

It was very frustrating. Totally blech, new age, dumb ending.

Alexander Hamilton
06-13-2011, 07:55 AM
It was very frustrating. Totally blech, new age, dumb ending.

I was torn on it. Seemed too preachy and didn't answer some lingering questions well enough for my tastes, but spirituality had been tied into the show for a long time and didn't seem out of place in that context.... And the final battle was pretty sweet. As was adama's and the presidents last scene.

The Hodag
06-13-2011, 08:05 AM
Okay, good, some counterpoints!

artimoff
06-13-2011, 08:39 AM
Aside from, say, Adama, who would you guys pick as your favorite character on the show?

It's hard to have a favorite character on a show like BSG. So much of who these characters are is because of the other characters that surround them.

Ultimately it was probabily Baltar.

The Human Target
06-13-2011, 11:31 AM
Its like LOST or Buffy.

Its a character drama painted with sci-fi/fantasy ideas.

If your looking for something with in depth genre explanations, look somewhere else.

The Human Target
06-13-2011, 11:34 AM
Baltar for sure!

I'm also kinda partial to Anders, the poor bastard.

Jason California
06-13-2011, 11:46 AM
Baltar arnd Helo were my favorites. They were both the most human in the show for very different reasons

Jason California
06-13-2011, 11:47 AM
Anders got hosed, but I can't say he did not deserve it.

The Hodag
06-13-2011, 04:33 PM
Baltar arnd Helo were my favorites. They were both the most human in the show for very different reasons

It's interesting you say that. Of the three seasons I saw, I think they were at the top of my list, too.

The Hodag
06-13-2011, 04:34 PM
If your looking for something with in depth genre explanations, look somewhere else.

Noted.

JHickman
06-13-2011, 05:37 PM
I do hate it when people say the spiritual stuff was tacked on. Watch the pilot/movie. Watch the very first episode of the first season. Almost the very first line is:

"God has a plan for you, Gaius. He has a plan for everything and everyone."

The ending was just soft.

S. Earl
06-13-2011, 05:58 PM
Aside from, say, Adama, who would you guys pick as your favorite character on the show?

Colonol Tigh. No contest.

Jason California
06-13-2011, 06:07 PM
I do hate it when people say the spiritual stuff was tacked on. Watch the pilot/movie. Watch the very first episode of the first season. Almost the very first line is:

"God has a plan for you, Gaius. He has a plan for everything and everyone."

The ending was just soft.

Yeah, they never pretended it would be anything other than what it was.

Colonol Tigh. No contest.

Tigh was good. He was the man he wanted to be. The show had a lot of good characters.

JohnBehling
06-13-2011, 06:23 PM
Aside from, say, Adama, who would you guys pick as your favorite character on the show?

Kara & Laura

The Hodag
06-13-2011, 06:39 PM
I wonder what, if anything, it says about larger societal trends when two of the best-loved, long-running sci-fi shows (Lost and Galactica) had such heavy spiritual components. As atheism is becoming increasingly accepted, is their some regret showing through in the collective consciousness?

Jason California
06-13-2011, 06:45 PM
Kara & Laura


Laura was the one I liked possibly the least. I did not feel bad for her at all when the fleet was falling apart, and she was having her break down over guilt.

The Hodag
06-13-2011, 06:52 PM
Laura was the one I liked possibly the least. I did not feel bad for her at all when the fleet was falling apart, and she was having her break down over guilt.

I got at least as far as the point where she rigged the election and a presume things got worse. I know she started out rather principled and whatever depths she lowered herself to came gradually and as a result of very difficult situations.

Don't you at least feel for some empathy for seeing a good person stumble and fall?

Jason California
06-13-2011, 07:00 PM
I got at least as far as the point where she rigged the election and a presume things got worse. I know she started out rather principled and whatever depths she lowered herself to came gradually and as a result of very difficult situations.

Don't you at least feel for some empathy for seeing a good person stumble and fall?


No. She drank her own Kool Aid. She refused many good ideas pushing the fleet beyond breaking point in the directions she deemed necessary. She held everyone to a high ethical standard, but was often more than willing to cut corners for herself. She hit below the belt whenever it suited her, and then she had the audacity to ask Lee for mercy in a time of need. Thank God she had Adam as a conscious.

The Hodag
06-13-2011, 07:07 PM
No. She drank her own Kool Aid. She refused many good ideas pushing the fleet beyond breaking point in the directions she deemed necessary. She held everyone to a high ethical standard, but was often more than willing to cut corners for herself. She hit below the belt whenever it suited her, and then she had the audacity to ask Lee for mercy in a time of need. Thank God she had Adam as a conscious.

Did you like her as a flawed character?

I ask because you listed Baltar as a favorite on the previous page, and whatever transformations he might've undergone in the season (or maybe a little more) after I stopped watching, he was a self-serving scumweasel for the entire time I watched him. At least from what I remember, his self-serving nature paved the way for the Cyclons to attack the colonies and kill billions, and he made any number of horrible decisions afterwards.

Don't get me wrong, I liked the character, too, but I don't know if I ever saw him exhibit a single principle for reasons beyond self-interest.

Taxman
06-13-2011, 07:28 PM
1) Did they ever give a concrete explanation of Baltar's visions of Number Six?

No. Not clear. More clues though.Well. I don't know that I can agree with that.
No. She drank her own Kool Aid. She refused many good ideas pushing the fleet beyond breaking point in the directions she deemed necessary. She held everyone to a high ethical standard, but was often more than willing to cut corners for herself. She hit below the belt whenever it suited her, and then she had the audacity to ask Lee for mercy in a time of need. Thank God she had Adam as a conscious.

Adam?

Was there an Eve too? I don't seem to remember this.

c. page
06-13-2011, 07:37 PM
I do hate it when people say the spiritual stuff was tacked on. Watch the pilot/movie. Watch the very first episode of the first season. Almost the very first line is:

"God has a plan for you, Gaius. He has a plan for everything and everyone."

The ending was just soft.

I thought the ending was solid up til the point where they got to Earth. That's when it fell apart for me, and felt like they got too clever by half.

Jason California
06-13-2011, 07:41 PM
Did you like her as a flawed character?

I ask because you listed Baltar as a favorite on the previous page, and whatever transformations he might've undergone in the season (or maybe a little more) after I stopped watching, he was a self-serving scumweasel for the entire time I watched him. At least from what I remember, his self-serving nature paved the way for the Cyclons to attack the colonies and kill billions, and he made any number of horrible decisions afterwards.

Don't get me wrong, I liked the character, too, but I don't know if I ever saw him exhibit a single principle for reasons beyond self-interest.


There is no confusion as to the character of Baltar from the start. He is a self serving, worm of a man. I enjoyed all of his games knowing what they were. It was fun to watch things get to a boiling point for him and see how he gets out of things. It was better seeing the occasional hint of a soul.

Laura is introduced as the benevolent flip side of the stern Adama. I saw her as the heart that would hold everything together. Instead she shattered it. Early on Adama comments about how you think she is soft, but she is really hard (paraphrasing). That came back to me throughout the show. She screwed over every Cylon that trusted her. For the most part, she only adhered to law when it suited her, or in extreme cases when someone forced her hand. She broke the fleet driving them with little communication, and providing almost no understanding to the people she was saving as to why they did it. And don't get in her way. She will get you in way she has to. At first I thought it was that it was the stress of the situation, but as the show went along I began to think it was just who she was. She had a moment of clarity when she chose not to kill Baltar. So I guess the reason she bothers me so is that I thought and wanted her to be better than she was.

And Baltar may not redeem himself but he might have atoned in the end.

Taxman
06-13-2011, 08:13 PM
Laura is introduced as the benevolent flip side of the stern Adama. I saw her as the heart that would hold everything together. Instead she shattered it. Early on Adama comments about how you think she is soft, but she is really hard (paraphrasing). That came back to me throughout the show. She screwed over every Cylon that trusted her. For the most part, she only adhered to law when it suited her, or in extreme cases when someone forced her hand. She broke the fleet driving them with little communication, and providing almost no understanding to the people she was saving as to why they did it. And don't get in her way. She will get you in way she has to. At first I thought it was that it was the stress of the situation, but as the show went along I began to think it was just who she was. She had a moment of clarity when she chose not to kill Baltar. So I guess the reason she bothers me so is that I thought and wanted her to be better than she was..Power corrupts.

Jason California
06-13-2011, 08:17 PM
Humanity never proves it deserves to live.

The Hodag
06-13-2011, 08:31 PM
Humanity never proves it deserves to live.

That's your takeaway from the show? :scared:

Again, never seen the final season (or maybe two), but along the way I saw a lot of humanity (and sure, a lot of inhumanity as well). It seems crazy to me that the actions of the crew during the final season could be so uniformly reprehensible as to leave one thinking that.

Taxman
06-13-2011, 08:32 PM
Humanity never proves it deserves to live.

Ultimately, peace was made with the Cylons. Seems beyond the ability of out current culture.

The Hodag
06-13-2011, 08:40 PM
There is no confusion as to the character of Baltar from the start. He is a self serving, worm of a man. I enjoyed all of his games knowing what they were. It was fun to watch things get to a boiling point for him and see how he gets out of things. It was better seeing the occasional hint of a soul.

Laura is introduced as the benevolent flip side of the stern Adama. I saw her as the heart that would hold everything together. Instead she shattered it. Early on Adama comments about how you think she is soft, but she is really hard (paraphrasing). That came back to me throughout the show. She screwed over every Cylon that trusted her. For the most part, she only adhered to law when it suited her, or in extreme cases when someone forced her hand. She broke the fleet driving them with little communication, and providing almost no understanding to the people she was saving as to why they did it. And don't get in her way. She will get you in way she has to. At first I thought it was that it was the stress of the situation, but as the show went along I began to think it was just who she was. She had a moment of clarity when she chose not to kill Baltar. So I guess the reason she bothers me so is that I thought and wanted her to be better than she was.

And Baltar may not redeem himself but he might have atoned in the end.

Interesting. I don't think I can respond to this one without revisiting the series and seeing how things play out, and I'm thinking I may go ahead and give it a go.

I think white knight type characters tend to get a raw deal in fiction. Granted, it's often more interesting to watch tarnished characters than straight arrows, but the tarnished heroes usually get forgiven easily for some final atonement, and the straight arrows rarely get respect for struggling hard their entire lives to do the right thing. And deathbed atonement is a bullshit concept in my opinion. People will say or do anything when death or something terrible is on the horizon, and the notion that a single sacrifice atones for a lifetime of inflicting misery on others is ridiculous. It can be dramatically enticing - see: Darth Vader - but in the real world it's ridiculous. It's cheap and easy.

I dunno, though, maybe Baltar atones REAL HARD. I can't say for sure till I know, and that much I figure I should see in context.

The Hodag
06-13-2011, 08:42 PM
Ultimately, peace was made with the Cylons. Seems beyond the ability of out current culture.

It's true. That's why we're still at war with Germany and Japan and Britain and the Civil War never ended. :)

The Hodag
06-13-2011, 08:50 PM
Quick backstory question: do they ever mention just what the Galactica was doing before the Cylons returned? Fighting rogue nations among the Colonies? Space pirates? Mainly polishing their rifles?

Taxman
06-13-2011, 08:50 PM
It's true. That's why we're still at war with Germany and Japan and Britain and the Civil War never ended. :)

That's why it's science fiction. There is no historical analogue to the opposing parties of a genocide finding common ground after a handful of years.

Taxman
06-13-2011, 08:53 PM
Quick backstory question: do they ever mention just what the Galactica was doing before the Cylons returned? Fighting rogue nations among the Colonies? Space pirates? Mainly polishing their rifles?

Pretty much the last one.

I thought you had watched this.

Jason California
06-13-2011, 08:53 PM
That's your takeaway from the show? :scared:

Again, never seen the final season (or maybe two), but along the way I saw a lot of humanity (and sure, a lot of inhumanity as well). It seems crazy to me that the actions of the crew during the final season could be so uniformly reprehensible as to leave one thinking that.


The series beings asking that question. There is no assumption that humanity deserves to exist. I don't think humanity is able to answer it in the affirmative. They do earn a temporary reprieve. The show ends in the now. We pick up right where it stops. It is now our turn to answer the question. At the very least we can probably pass the buck down on the line if previous cycles are any indication.

Jason California
06-13-2011, 08:54 PM
Quick backstory question: do they ever mention just what the Galactica was doing before the Cylons returned? Fighting rogue nations among the Colonies? Space pirates? Mainly polishing their rifles?

it was being decommissioned and turned into a museum when the Cylons attacked.

The Hodag
06-13-2011, 08:58 PM
Pretty much the last one.

I thought you had watched this.

I haven't seen the last season and I forget somewhat large chunks of everything else. I remember flashbacks where Adama is shootin' up some shit as a young turk, but I guess that was supposed to be the first Cylon war.

And I'm watching the miniseries now and there's some sense that it's been quiet for a while, but Adama also calls Starbuck the best fighter pilot he's seen, and somehow Apollo's got a pretty good rep, and I just figured they've got to've seen action somewhere.

It's not vital to the story, I was just curious if Caprica had filled in any details. You know, military hotspots among the colonies before they got blowed up, and so forth.

Taxman
06-13-2011, 08:59 PM
it was being decommissioned and turned into a museum when the Cylons attacked.

There was a mini-series/pilot and then the regular show started. I am going to guess that he missed the actual beginning of the story. He should way h that if he is going back to it.

Taxman
06-13-2011, 09:05 PM
I haven't seen the last season and I forget somewhat large chunks of everything else. I remember flashbacks where Adama is shootin' up some shit as a young turk, but I guess that was supposed to be the first Cylon war.

And I'm watching the miniseries now and there's some sense that it's been quiet for a while, but Adama also calls Starbuck the best fighter pilot he's seen, and somehow Apollo's got a pretty good rep, and I just figured they've got to've seen action somewhere.

It's not vital to the story, I was just curious if Caprica had filled in any details. You know, military hotspots among the colonies before they got blowed up, and so forth.

Okay, I get it. There was 40 years of peace. Really no indication of any combat in that timeframe. So probably, just did similar things to what our military does absent combat; training, exploration, humanitarian missions and just general readiness.

The Hodag
06-13-2011, 09:07 PM
it was being decommissioned and turned into a museum when the Cylons attacked.

Right, fo' sho', but that's 40 years after the previous Cylon war. So it had to've been doing SOMETHING in all that time that they didn't decommission it after 5, 10, or 20 years. I suppose it could just have been prowling borders and whatnot. I just figured Adama and Starbuck and Tigh seemed like tough enough bastards that they must've lived through some kind of fighting in their service prior to the show.

Probably it just doesn't matter. Whatever wars and rebellions might've been going on in the Colonies become quickly irrelevant to the future of humanity, and that's what the show was always concerned with.

Jason California
06-13-2011, 09:11 PM
the colony's did not always get along with each other. Taurons and Caprican's for instance were know to have problems. Adamas family started out as Tauron immigrants. Had Caprica gone on it would have dealt with this.

JHickman
06-13-2011, 09:14 PM
I thought the ending was solid up til the point where they got to Earth. That's when it fell apart for me, and felt like they got too clever by half.

Uh-huh. I'd generally agree with that. Solid first hour. A draggy second hour. Kill me now third hour.

Foolish Mortal
06-13-2011, 09:21 PM
I don't think there was any "spiritual" meaning at the end at all. There wasn't a "god", just a super-advanced alien (or aliens) who was manipulating the humans and cylons to perhaps to get them to understand one an other, or maybe was just studying them.

Baltar's last line when Six mentions "god"; "You know he doesn't like to be called that." gave it away.

The Hodag
06-13-2011, 09:24 PM
That's why it's science fiction. There is no historical analogue to the opposing parties of a genocide finding common ground after a handful of years.

I wonder if there's something analogous in the genocide of the Native Americans? Not one-to-one, certainly, but there's definitely something about the Galactica's beleaguered, hounded status that suggests the twilight years of their power in America. The Native Americans didn't really have a choice, but...they were integrated back into America. Shittily integrated, alas.


The series beings asking that question. There is no assumption that humanity deserves to exist. I don't think humanity is able to answer it in the affirmative. They do earn a temporary reprieve. The show ends in the now. We pick up right where it stops. It is now our turn to answer the question. At the very least we can probably pass the buck down on the line if previous cycles are any indication.

Okay, yeah, I can see how the show takes the viewer to the precipice and leaves the decision in their hands.

I think I've got all my questions squared away and it's time to get back to the miniseries to finish it off tonight. Thanks, guys.

The Hodag
06-13-2011, 09:25 PM
Uh-huh. I'd generally agree with that. Solid first hour. A draggy second hour. Kill me now third hour.

Overall assessment of the show? Glad you made the journey?

The Human Target
06-13-2011, 09:28 PM
I love the end a lot.

Taxman
06-13-2011, 10:04 PM
I wonder whether there was meant to be some analogue to Roman persecution of Christians. The Cylons were essentially an unwanted monotheistic element in a pagan society. I doubt many viewers sympathized with the Cylons based on religion.

I suppose watching past the Caprica pilot might have shed some light on this.

JHickman
06-13-2011, 10:33 PM
I don't think there was any "spiritual" meaning at the end at all. There wasn't a "god", just a super-advanced alien (or aliens) who was manipulating the humans and cylons to perhaps to get them to understand one an other, or maybe was just studying them.

Baltar's last line when Six mentions "god"; "You know he doesn't like to be called that." gave it away.

I'd argue it's the exact opposite. A tacked on line for the ending to appear more clever than what it was.


Overall assessment of the show? Glad you made the journey?

Absolutely. For most of the show it was the best SF ever on television.

JohnBehling
06-14-2011, 01:47 AM
Glad you made the journey?

Absolutely.

Foolish Mortal
06-14-2011, 03:34 AM
I'd argue it's the exact opposite. A tacked on line for the ending to appear more clever than what it was.
No I think that was Ron Moore's intent all along.

The original Galactica series featured uber-powerful aliens beyond the understanding of the humans. (they could bring dead people back to life for example)

The aliens were clearly the "gods" of their myths.

DaveCummings
06-14-2011, 04:06 AM
No I think that was Ron Moore's intent all along.

The original Galactica series featured uber-powerful aliens beyond the understanding of the humans. (they could bring dead people back to life for example)

The aliens were clearly the "gods" of their myths.

Yeah but the original BSG had other aliens running around. The remake works so well because you don't have that. There aren't any other aliens manipulating them at all and I think if they added that, it would weaken it tremendously

Foolish Mortal
06-14-2011, 09:03 AM
Yeah but the original BSG had other aliens running around. The remake works so well because you don't have that. There aren't any other aliens manipulating them at all and I think if they added that, it would weaken it tremendously
There was clearly another party out there guiding/manipulating the humans and cylons.

So it was either 'God' or super-advanced aliens. Who or what Starbuck back to life? I prefer to think it's a call back to the original series.

Taxman
06-14-2011, 10:48 AM
Who or what Starbuck back to life? I really can't consider her "alive", per se.

JHickman
06-14-2011, 10:53 AM
No I think that was Ron Moore's intent all along.

The original Galactica series featured uber-powerful aliens beyond the understanding of the humans. (they could bring dead people back to life for example)

The aliens were clearly the "gods" of their myths.


Did you listen to the podcasts he did for each episode?

And I'd also argue that every other callback he did to the original series was as overt as possible.

But, you know, that's the beauty of these things... personal interpretation.

Jason California
06-14-2011, 10:59 AM
Starbuck was probably never human to begin with. At least not in the same way everyone else was.

Taxman
06-14-2011, 11:04 AM
But, you know, that's the beauty of these things... personal interpretation.I actually find that a good reason not to listen to the podcasts.

Jason California
06-14-2011, 12:57 PM
I actually find that a good reason not to listen to the podcasts.


The show is rife for personal interpretation. I am glad Starbuck was never explained.

The Hodag
06-17-2011, 12:21 AM
Finished watching the miniseries the other night. I want to say I remember that some people thought it wasn't so hot, but I thought it was great at the time and still do. It really seems like they had all the characters down from the get-go and there're any number of amazing scenes. About the ONLY thing I thought was weak was that little rat bastard iteration of the kid, Boxey, from the original show. Didn't they just drop him after the mini, though? I think they did.

Memorable stuff for me:

*Six offing the baby is wonderfully fucked up
*the relentlessness of the Cylon fleet (which I know gets played to the hilt in "33"); warp in, launch a thousand missiles, repeat
*Balter's supremely watchable discomfort (and Six's accompanying mindgames); the scene where she reveals the Cylon's pending destruction of the colonies and his sole concern is, "what will happen if I'm found out?" is quintessential Baltar
*Adama's underplayed realization that he's walking alongside a Cylon at that supply depot - and what happens next
*all of Bear McCreary's music
*Katee Sackhoff's reportoire of wise-ass facial expressions and her physical confidence
*f/x that hold up perfectly
*that real "end of the world" sense when Boomer and Helo are crashlanded and there's something like three mushroom clouds visible in the distance

And I still love how Baltar scapegoats the one guy as a Cylon and the way that plays out. It's almost too much to buy, but I flashed back to when I first watched and was super caught up in how utterly fucked-over this guy had been by Baltar - which was great drama - and how cool the twist seemed in the wake of that.

Doug O
06-17-2011, 05:21 AM
You should watch to the end! Some dark passages on the way but it's totally worth it.

Patrick King
06-17-2011, 05:46 AM
Yeah that was one of the things I really loved about the mini was that it had a very real end-of-the-world feel. And Baltar's overwhelming sense of self-preservation is one of his most defining and appealing attributes.

Dave S.
06-17-2011, 06:21 AM
Okay, I'm processing all that and there's some stuff in there I like, but one quick aside: Lucy was Australopithecus afarensis, so far back on the evolutionary scale as to look something like a monkey with the ability to walk upright:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A.afarensis.jpg

Wouldn't a human/Cylon hybrid look essentially human, not like humanity's most primitive ancestor? Or did Galactica tweak history to suggest that Lucy was more or less human looking?

Oh, and thanks for such a comprehensive answer, Jason. :thumb: Anyone else wanting to chime in, do so. Now that the show's been over for, what, a year or two, I'm interested to hear how people think about it in retrospect.

Hera wasn't Lucy, she was Mitochondrial Eve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve). Big difference.

The Hodag
06-17-2011, 07:42 AM
Hera wasn't Lucy, she was Mitochondrial Eve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve). Big difference.

I was trusting Jason and he misled me!

The Hodag
06-17-2011, 07:43 AM
You should watch to the end! Some dark passages on the way but it's totally worth it.

Yeah, I pretty much decided to give it a go.

Next up: "33"

Jason California
06-17-2011, 07:52 AM
Hera wasn't Lucy, she was Mitochondrial Eve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve). Big difference.

Thanks for that

Jason California
06-17-2011, 07:53 AM
I was trusting Jason and he misled me!

My bad

S. Earl
06-17-2011, 07:54 AM
Goddammit, everytime BSG gets a new thread I get tempted to plow through the entire thing... again.

Fuck, I'll never finish Lost and the Wire if this keeps up.

Doug O
06-17-2011, 07:55 AM
Yeah, I pretty much decided to give it a go.

Next up: "33"

You'll enjoy it, I am on my 3rd viewing, just got Season 3 out from the Library and watching them during my workouts. 2nd viewing was with my wife, because she hadn't really watched the 1st time around. It holds up. My wife didn't care for the lack of explanation of all the Starbuck stuff but liked it overall.

Talking about the miniseries, one of my favorite Baltar moments is when they're drawing numbers and he's tempted to take the number from the old woman who couldn't find her glasses (even though they were on her head!). Only reason he doesn't do it is because Helo recognizes him and he becomes instantly guilty.

The Hodag
06-17-2011, 08:08 AM
Talking about the miniseries, one of my favorite Baltar moments is when they're drawing numbers and he's tempted to take the number from the old woman who couldn't find her glasses (even though they were on her head!). Only reason he doesn't do it is because Helo recognizes him and he becomes instantly guilty.

Watching Baltar twist in the wind is one of the primary joys of season one, as I recall. :lol:

I also liked that crashlanding scene for defining the series tonally. Not only do they have to leave most of the people behind to die of radiation poisoning, not only does Helo inadvertently sacrifice himself for a sleazeball...but as the ship is taking off Helo actually has to SHOOT a panicked guy who leaps onto the raptor! Big exit wound and everything!

It was very "Galactica."

artimoff
06-17-2011, 08:51 AM
Baltar arnd Helo were my favorites. They were both the most human in the show for very different reasons

Oh yeah, Helo. Helo was a favorite as well. First season, Boomer was a favorite, but by season 2 they had decided not to continue any developmen with her until the end.

Jason California
06-17-2011, 09:24 AM
From what I understand, Helo was not even supposed to make it past the mini. He was so popular he the writers decided to keep him. I have to admit when I first saw him I thought he was going to be a throw away character. Watching him fight to survive and get off of Caprica sold me on him though.

I really wish they had done a better job of showing Boomer descent. I had no problems with where she ended up character wise, I just don't think they did a good job of developing it.

Taxman
06-17-2011, 11:24 AM
Goddammit, everytime BSG gets a new thread I get tempted to plow through the entire thing... again.

Fuck, I'll never finish Lost and the Wire if this keeps up.I would just finish those first.

Taxman
06-17-2011, 11:24 AM
From what I understand, Helo was not even supposed to make it past the mini. That was certainly how it felt.

S. Earl
06-17-2011, 11:38 AM
I would just finish those first.

Well The Wire is only watched when the GF and I can both watch it, considering we both haven't seen it before. But Lost... I ... I just don't care. I'm halfway through season two and I don't find myself giving a shit about what happens to anyone. I am trying to stick with it hoping that something unlocks and all of the sudden it's amazing.

The Hodag
06-17-2011, 12:00 PM
But Lost... I ... I just don't care. I'm halfway through season two and I don't find myself giving a shit about what happens to anyone. I am trying to stick with it hoping that something unlocks and all of the sudden it's amazing.

I'd say if you didn't find yourself enthralled when the Locke episode came around 4 or 5 episodes into season one, it's never gonna click for you. The mysteries continue to whirl about with minimal explanations, so it's important you feel a connection to the characters if you're going to enjoy it. Hurley, Locke, Charlie...if you're not into their stories by season two, I'd recommend you stop torturing yourself. :)

The Hodag
06-17-2011, 12:05 PM
From what I understand, Helo was not even supposed to make it past the mini. He was so popular he the writers decided to keep him. I have to admit when I first saw him I thought he was going to be a throw away character. Watching him fight to survive and get off of Caprica sold me on him though.

I remember being a huge fan of Helo in the first season, but it seems like he starts making some decisions once he returns to the ship that put everyone in danger, and suddenly he was harder to like. I'll have to see what I think when I revisit it. It was a semi-notable problem for me that sometimes characters would change on the show rather suddenly, and it'd be dramatic and all, but I didn't always buy it.

And I do believe I remember from the miniseries commentary that Helo was originally meant to be throwaway. I started listening to the commentary last night (once listened to it, have mostly forgotten it) and it's been very interesting.

Oh, and on an f/x note, I remember the first time I saw the scenes of Helo surviving on Caprica, I was just amazed at how real the Cylons looked chasing him through a forest while rain pours down. And indeed it still looks excellent.

In the early days of the show, I think Helo was the closest it had to a true-blue hero. His survival on Caprica has an almost John McClane vibe.

S. Earl
06-17-2011, 12:07 PM
I'd say if you didn't find yourself enthralled when the Locke episode came around 4 or 5 episodes into season one, it's never gonna click for you. The mysteries continue to whirl about with minimal explanations, so it's important you feel a connection to the characters if you're going to enjoy it. Hurley, Locke, Charlie...if you're not into their stories by season two, I'd recommend you stop torturing yourself. :)

I wouldn't call it torture exactly. I think my expectations got set way way way too high due to the hype. I say down expecting Citizin Kane the TV show, and all I got was a pretty decent TV show.

S. Earl
06-17-2011, 12:09 PM
I remember being a huge fan of Helo in the first season, but it seems like he starts making some decisions once he returns to the ship that put everyone in danger, and suddenly he was harder to like. I'll have to see what I think when I revisit it. It was a semi-notable problem for me that sometimes characters would change on the show rather suddenly, and it'd be dramatic and all, but I didn't always buy it.

And I do believe I remember from the miniseries commentary that Helo was originally meant to be throwaway. I started listening to the commentary last night (once listened to it, have mostly forgotten it) and it's been very interesting.

Oh, and on an f/x note, I remember the first time I saw the scenes of Helo surviving on Caprica, I was just amazed at how real the Cylons looked chasing him through a forest while rain pours down. And indeed it still looks excellent.

In the early days of the show, I think Helo was the closest it had to a true-blue hero. His survival on Caprica has an almost John McClane vibe.

We are lucky Helo was kept around. If not we would have to put up with Apollo getting twice as many odd jobs and postions every time they needed to explore a different faction of the ship's culture. At least between the two of them it was almost plausible two dudes would have this many skills... almost.

The Hodag
06-17-2011, 12:13 PM
We are lucky Helo was kept around. If not we would have to put up with Apollo getting twice as many odd jobs and postions every time they needed to explore a different faction of the ship's culture. At least between the two of them it was almost plausible two dudes would have this many skills... almost.

:lol:

Yes, I do remember some of that.

Doug O
06-17-2011, 05:00 PM
Oh one more word of advice, if it seems like a 2nd or 3rd season stand-alone episode is kinda lame, like the Bulldog guy coming back or the Black Market one, just move onto the next one. The other thing I thought that dragged was the Lee/Kara drama. But when it gets to the final season and you're learning everything about the Cylons and you're wondering if the ship is going to make it to the last episode, it's non-stop goodness as far as I'm concerned.

S. Earl
06-17-2011, 05:39 PM
Black Market is the only episode I wish I skipped. The Bulldog ep? I think it serves a purpose for Adamas' development, but not the plots.

Slippery slope though, because next thing you realize your skipping awesome eps like Scar or the Helo Vs Kevorkian ep

Doug O
06-17-2011, 07:51 PM
True, I just meant to watch them once and move on and not stress it, not necessarily quit the whole show. There are a few of those clunkers. Helo vs. Kevorkian was awesome, just watched that yesterday.

Taxman
06-17-2011, 09:31 PM
Black Market is the only episode I wish I skipped.

That thing was entirely inexplicable.

The Hodag
06-18-2011, 01:19 AM
It always made me sad that "33" was so amazing that no single episode that followed it ever matched it for me. Knowing that I can be more laid back as I rewatch the show and keep expectations a little more moderate.

In any case, just rewatched it. Still love it. Great concept, great episode structure, love the strained performances from the whole cast.

Doug O
06-18-2011, 06:51 AM
That short 1st season is all pretty excellent. My mother-in-law got into the show and somehow missed, like all of it or a chunk of it because she got confused by Netflix and the miniseries somehow (don't ask). I keep tell her "Go back and watch the 1st season!

But yeah, it's all about the journey and not expecting a big payoff besides them reaching the end. Plus all the true surprises along the way.

Side note: My wife hated, hated Col. Tigh at the beginning but felt like he was the best character after New Caprica.

Jason California
06-18-2011, 07:10 AM
And then there is fucking your mom who is also you daughter, but she does not remember that even though you do.

Taxman
06-18-2011, 08:34 AM
And then there is fucking your mom who is also you daughter, but she does not remember that even though you do.I had to think of this for a good long while before I had any idea what you were talking about. :lol:

The Hodag
06-21-2011, 11:07 PM
Not quite at the halfway point through season one. I'm sure Katee Sackhoff will get more strong acting moments as the series progresses, but I don't know if she'll ever top the scene where the tells Adama she's in essence responsible for his son's death - and finds no forgiveness in his eyes. Tough scene.

Doug O
06-24-2011, 05:04 PM
That's a good one. I just watched the Season 4 premiere, good stuff. In Season 3 and 4 it's really broken up well into 10-episode arcs, which I think work well. Just that the Starbuck arc and the Baltar arc drag on a little bit, like they are just getting something to do while waiting for the conclusion. Curious what you will think.

Jason California
06-24-2011, 06:02 PM
I did a lot of crying during seasons 1-3. I teared up once towards the end of he final season.

The Hodag
06-25-2011, 11:19 PM
I did a lot of crying through seasons 1-3. I teared up once towards the end of he final season.

I was surprised to find myself really moved on several occasions by the strained father/son relationship of Adama and Apollo. I remember thinking they did a good job with it when I first watched it, but I'd forgotten how good. The episode that got to me early on in rewatching it was the one where Starbuck's crashlanded on a planet and the fleet's taking huge risks spreading out to find her. Adama keeps pushing to stay longer, even well past the length Starbuck's air supply should have lasted. Eventually it's just too obviously dangerous to the entire fleet to keep up the search, and they begin making preparations to warp out.

Adama and Apollo are talking, both of them really torn up to leave the system even after a Herculean search. And yet on some level it's obvious Apollo feels jealous of his father's fatherly devotion to Starbuck. That's when Adama tells his son, "If it was you, we would never have left."

:cry:

The Hodag
06-29-2011, 07:36 PM
And so we enter season two, where memories of the series start to get hazier. Which is kind of cool.

Opening episode has what might be one of the best lines in the series after Starbuck's stolen Cylon raider gets stolen back:

"Bitch took my ride."

The Hodag
07-02-2011, 02:28 PM
Isn't there a flashback episode or Galactica movie that sheds some light on a young Bill Adama?

As I'm getting into the second season and Tigh's on a bit of a rampage while Adama's comatose, I'm reflecting on Adama's command skills. On one level, he's obviously meant to be a sharp strategist and inspire a fierce loyalty in his crew with as a stern father figure, but... he also has a drunk fuck-up for an XO and makes some odd calls when it comes to insubordination - like all the chances he gives Starbuck when she mouths off to Tigh.

I know things get a little crazy when the survival of the human race is at stake, but he's definitely a flawed leader. I'd like to see more of his early days. So far there've just been one or two flashbacks where it looks like Adama and Tigh both were near to getting kicked out for some kind of shenanigans.

Patrick King
07-02-2011, 02:30 PM
Isn't there a flashback episode or Galactica movie that sheds some light on a young Bill Adama?

As I'm getting into the second season and Tigh's on a bit of a rampage while Adama's comatose, I'm reflecting on Adama's command skills. On one level, he's obviously meant to be a sharp strategist and inspire a fierce loyalty in his crew with as a stern father figure, but... he also has a drunk fuck-up for an XO and makes some odd calls when it comes to insubordination - like all the chances he gives Starbuck when she mouths off to Tigh.

I know things get a little crazy when the survival of the human race is at stake, but he's definitely a flawed leader. I'd like to see more of his early days. So far there've just been one or two flashbacks where it looks like Adama and Tigh both were near to getting kicked out for some kind of shenanigans.

Yeah, BSG Razor has some flashbacks featuring young Bill during the first Cylon war, among other parts. They go a little more into his and Tigh's relationships in the later seasons, and a bit in The Plan as well.