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HOOKS
06-09-2011, 05:18 AM
The longest running title at Marvel comes to an end.

http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/uncanny544.jpg
Bleeding Cool
(http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/06/09/marvel-cancels-uncanny-x-men-comic/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+BleedingCool+%28Bleeding+Cool +Comic+News+%26+Rumors%29&utm_content=Twitter)CBR (http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2011/06/quote-of-the-day-kieron-gillen-on-the-end-of-uncanny-x-men/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)

Marcdachamp
06-09-2011, 05:20 AM
I haven't bought Uncanny regularly (outside of a crossover) since "Rise and Fall of the Shiar Empire," but this is kind of sad. :(

WhindamPryce
06-09-2011, 05:24 AM
Sure, why not?

Gregory
06-09-2011, 05:30 AM
I kinda wish Fraction could have seen it to the end. I'm surprised by how sad this makes me. I've bought that book for most of 25 years.

jason hissong
06-09-2011, 05:32 AM
Like that's not going to be re-launched.

hamgravy
06-09-2011, 05:32 AM
Aannnd, less than a week after Tom Brevoort and "Talk to the Hat" covered that it's the only/ longest-running Marvel title to never undergo drastic re-numbering. He intimated that they wouldn't be opposed to such a thing but I didn't expect for it to already be in the works. I'm no numbering purist but still a bit of a shame to see this title go in it's current form.

Ryudo
06-09-2011, 05:33 AM
They'll relaunch it, run it for three years until they get close to 600, then renumber it again.

Brother Power the Gong
06-09-2011, 05:42 AM
:nonono2:

HOOKS
06-09-2011, 05:45 AM
:nonono2:

Exactly how I feel.

leviathan
06-09-2011, 05:45 AM
I wish they were ending the run with anyone but Greg Land. Haven't bought the book since he started drawing it and I would have liked to own the "last" issue.

Brother Power the Gong
06-09-2011, 05:47 AM
Exactly how I feel.

Constants are great — especially since new titles come and go. I feel the same way about the Bat- and Supes-books.

Brad N.
06-09-2011, 05:50 AM
And now the only other Marvel title I have been buying for decades is gone. I think I will be more sad to see this off my pull list than I was Amazing Spider-Man.

Thudpucker
06-09-2011, 05:50 AM
Wait, I thought there were no more X-Men teams. What are they disbanding?

afroloq
06-09-2011, 05:51 AM
that is sad. The first one I bought was issue 173...

Pidge
06-09-2011, 05:51 AM
This actually does make me sad, i've got a complete run from giant size to now & as weird as it may sound, I was always happy that it was the one title that hadn't done the renumber thing over and over.

Hopefully this does what "disassembled" did for Avengers, I just hope that if they do reboot it at #1 they don't keep on flip flopping, I wonder who the new creative team will be or if there will even be one, I've been enjoying Gillen's run so I'd like him to stay on the book, maybe immonen on art? I'd like to see that.

WhindamPryce
06-09-2011, 05:51 AM
Why is Beast kicking Jean in the hoo-ha?

Silver Age Taint Kick!

Not how Luke Cage woulda done it!

WhindamPryce
06-09-2011, 05:52 AM
Was Uncanny the last remaining Silver Age book with its original numbering?

Crimsonpug
06-09-2011, 05:52 AM
Gee - and I decided that THIS was the one X-Men comic I was gonna get when I came back into collecting 6 months ago. Guess I'll have to find a replacement... or wait for the reboot.

Brother Power the Gong
06-09-2011, 05:54 AM
Was Uncanny the last remaining Silver Age book with its original numbering?

Yeah, but I think it may haven been a vol. 2 or 3, due to being canceled in the 60s and 70s.

HOOKS
06-09-2011, 05:56 AM
Constants are great — especially since new titles come and go. I feel the same way about the Bat- and Supes-books.

I've been criticizing DC's decision up and down the board. But more for the glut of titles they are unleashing on the market to compete against themselves and the lack of clarity for retailers and potential consumers. If you're going to reboot, reboot.

SidekicksRevenge
06-09-2011, 05:57 AM
Love the Gillen quote. Sad that it seems like Marvel is never going to give the guy a long run on anything.

WhindamPryce
06-09-2011, 05:58 AM
Yeah, but I think it may haven been a vol. 2 or 3, due to being canceled in the 60s and 70s.

Still, it's had the same numbering since the 70s.

Perhaps Marvel thought that now that DC has done away with their sacred cow numberings of Action and Tec, that it was okay to do it to their book as well.

I mean, whatever, numberings are useless. They'll just revert it back in time for 575 (since 550 is too soon after cancellation).

WhindamPryce
06-09-2011, 06:03 AM
Of course we have yet to see Schism, but I just don't see how Logan's a sound alternative to Cyke for ANYTHING. Logan works best as an instigator or in charge of a death squad, not a full front leader of the next generation.

I betcha Hope and her Lights side with him. He's the cool uncle, after all. :)

Would Magneto then side with Logan or will he see that kind of thing didn't work for himself so now Cyke is the better option?

Aaron better have a really good reason as to why Logan would think it's a good idea to divide their ranks and go set up shop elsewhere. And I really wish Beast was a part of the initial storyline, rather than only being there in the aftermath as Aaron suggests.

Brother Power the Gong
06-09-2011, 06:05 AM
Love the Gillen quote. Sad that it seems like Marvel is never going to give the guy a long run on anything.

I hope he stays on for the new UXM. I have greatly enjoyed his first few issues.


Still, it's had the same numbering since the 70s.

Perhaps Marvel thought that now that DC has done away with their sacred cow numberings of Action and Tec, that it was okay to do it to their book as well.

I mean, whatever, numberings are useless. They'll just revert it back in time for 575 (since 550 is too soon after cancellation).

Yeah, I hear ya. But I kinda hate the 1-543, 1-32, 575- in my catalog.

HOOKS
06-09-2011, 06:08 AM
Congratulations to X-MEN: LEGACY (formerly X-MEN, NEW X-MEN, formerly X-MEN), now the longest running title at Marvel.

Pidge
06-09-2011, 06:09 AM
I hope he stays on for the new UXM. I have greatly enjoyed his first few issues.

Yeah, I hear ya. But I kinda hate the 1-543, 1-32, 575- in my catalog.

Agreed on both of these points.

Gregory
06-09-2011, 06:11 AM
Of course we have yet to see Schism, but I just don't see how Logan's a sound alternative to Cyke for ANYTHING. ... And I really wish Beast was a part of the initial storyline, rather than only being there in the aftermath as Aaron suggests.

Seeing as how Beast already left the team over Scott's attitude change and choices and how closely Wolverine has traditionally held the demeanor Scott now exhibits, BEAST should be the one to run an anti-Cyclops team.

WhindamPryce
06-09-2011, 06:11 AM
Congratulations to X-MEN: LEGACY (formerly X-MEN, NEW X-MEN, formerly X-MEN), now the longest running title at Marvel.

I don't see how it too won't be relaunched as well.

Most other X-books are early enough in their numberings. X-force, Wolverine, Gen Hope, Gischler's X-men, Dark Wolverine... if they relaunch Legacy and Uncanny they can have a whole "brand-new" line.

HOOKS
06-09-2011, 06:14 AM
I don't see how it too won't be relaunched as well.

Most other X-books are early enough in their numberings. X-force, Wolverine, Gen Hope, Gischler's X-men, Dark Wolverine... if they relaunch Legacy and Uncanny they can have a whole "brand-new" line.

They might as well pull an Avengers and relaunch their whole line.

WhindamPryce
06-09-2011, 06:14 AM
Seeing as how Beast already left the team over Scott's attitude change and choices and how closely Wolverine has traditionally held the demeanor Scott now exhibits, BEAST should be the one to run an anti-Cyclops team.

And again we don't know what sets the whole thing off... but Aaron says that Cyke will be more Xavier whereas Logan will be Magneto, which just doesn't make sense... Cyke was the perfect distillation of Charlie and Erik and he's led the entire goddamn mutant race through some tough shit in the past couple years. It better be a good reason for him to wanna be more isolationist or whatever now.

Although I'm sure the stories will be great, I see this tearing apart to be done for the sake of a shake up. Cyke and Logan already worked together to secretly kill people in the first X-force. Then Cyke got all pussy for some reason and denounced it, so Logan took up the cause in Remender's run. So now what makes him think he's the better moral option to Cyke?

Garth
06-09-2011, 06:15 AM
Why is Beast kicking Jean in the hoo-ha?


"Why not?" is the more pressing question!

WhindamPryce
06-09-2011, 06:16 AM
They might as well pull an Avengers and relaunch their whole line.

And the thing is, right now the creative teams are pretty much perfect, so the relaunch can just use them again.

Gillen on Uncanny.
Gischler on X-men.
Carey on Legacy.
Aaron on Wolvie.
er.. Williams on Daken (no thanks, bring back Way).
no one will miss X-23.
PAD on X-Factor (although that book has been languishing for a long while now, time to relaunch it with a stable art team).

WhindamPryce
06-09-2011, 06:20 AM
I bet it will be something like this:

A bunch of mutants die in a single incident (like Civil War's opening).

It's a public event so a lotta media to worry about.

Cyke wants to play it safe and compromise, Superman in DKR style.

But Logan wants to cut up some bitches.

Hope and Lights strongly feel that revenge should be taken as well, so they leave with Logan to shack up in Angel's aviary or wherever it is that X-force lives.

Avengers don't get involved, just cuz.

Dr. Nemesis and Namor just sit back and laugh their ass off.

Brother Power the Gong
06-09-2011, 06:28 AM
I bet it will be something like this:

A bunch of mutants die in a single incident (like Civil War's opening).

It's a public event so a lotta media to worry about.

Cyke wants to play it safe and compromise, Superman in DKR style.

But Logan wants to cut up some bitches.

Hope and Lights strongly feel that revenge should be taken as well, so they leave with Logan to shack up in Angel's aviary or wherever it is that X-force lives.

Avengers don't get involved, just cuz.

Dr. Nemesis and Namor just sit back and laugh their ass off.

You might be pretty close.

If it wasn't so soon after Hope's appearance in the present, I'd say that this is the catalyst for whatever the hell she does to create Bishop's timeline. It might start her down the path, but it may be a too early for that.

But, who knows? Without Uncanny X-Men, all you knew was wrong!

bachman
06-09-2011, 06:29 AM
Yeah, I hear ya. But I kinda hate the 1-543, 1-32, 575- in my catalog.

I used to hate that. Yet another plus side of switching to trades (combined with pricing and convenience)

Dan
06-09-2011, 06:33 AM
I think come the fall, no more singles of anything for me.

Brother Power the Gong
06-09-2011, 06:44 AM
I used to hate that. Yet another plus side of switching to trades (combined with pricing and convenience)
Yeah, yeah, I hear ya. I am still clinging to the serialized story-telling and the weekly trip to the comic book store. The price and convenience are undeniable, though. But with some storylines, the issue-to-issue is the way to go (Morrison's Batman run — especially during the B&R/RoBW — comes to mind). Plus, most of my trade-only buys get cancelled — I'm looking at you Nova and GoG.


I think come the fall, no more singles of anything for me.
Between pricing, and cancels and reboots, it seems like the Big 2 really seems to despise us single-issue buyers.

Gregory
06-09-2011, 06:46 AM
And again we don't know what sets the whole thing off...

If the online previews are any indication, it's the return of a troublemaker not seen for some time.

HOOKS
06-09-2011, 06:49 AM
I think come the fall, no more singles of anything for me.

I am 90% trades myself, but this and DC's news may push me to 100%

kon-el kent
06-09-2011, 06:49 AM
Despite having just gotten back into X-men after a hiatus away from the group I am def a little sad. I grew up loving the x-men. I dont remember where i was first introduced to them. It was probably spiderman and his amazing friends or maybe pryde of the x-men. Uncanny 300 was the first comic I ever bought in a comic shop. For years it was the pride and joy of my collection. Uncanny was a huge part of my life growing up and Ill def miss this run.

That being said now a days I dont really buy individual issues and mainly buy trades so the new numbering doesn't bother me that much. While I would love the continuation of the original numbering, maybe the X-men need a change. Look what it did for the avengers. Never in a MILLION YEARS did i ever think I would become a huge avengers fan but disassembled brought me in hook line and sinker. With the new movie out maybe this is the way they need to go. I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens.

On a side note, I really don't get all the greg land hate on the internet. I love his art. I remember first seeing it in the crossgen books and when he came onto uncanny I couldn't have been happier. I think he does a great job and I cant wait to see his art in the last issue.

Gregory
06-09-2011, 06:53 AM
On a side note, I really don't get all the greg land hate on the internet. I love his art. I remember first seeing it in the crossgen books and when he came onto uncanny I couldn't have been happier. I think he does a great job and I cant wait to see his art in the last issue.

Flip through a couple of magazines, and you can see his art before he draws it.

Brother Power the Gong
06-09-2011, 06:53 AM
If the online previews are any indication, it's the return of a troublemaker not seen for some time.

Any linkerage for a brotha? Or me, perhaps?

kon-el kent
06-09-2011, 06:55 AM
Flip through a couple of magazines, and you can see his art before he draws it.

I like that his art looks like pple from magazines. It looks like real pple and not just drawings.

TheTravis!
06-09-2011, 06:56 AM
And the thing is, right now the creative teams are pretty much perfect, so the relaunch can just use them again.

Gillen on Uncanny.
Gischler on X-men.
Carey on Legacy.
Aaron on Wolvie.
er.. Williams on Daken (no thanks, bring back Way).
no one will miss X-23.
PAD on X-Factor (although that book has been languishing for a long while now, time to relaunch it with a stable art team).

You need to concentrate on speaking only for yourself. X-23 is FANTASTIC.

SidekicksRevenge
06-09-2011, 06:58 AM
Renumbering stopped bothering me eons ago. I keep things in boxes, in reading order. Worrying about the number on the cover just seems silly at this point. It sucks for new readers, except for the part where it attracts new readers (for how long? depends on the book) and most comic shops should have folks that can point you in the right direction if you want to get caught up.

It's not like there's an un-messy trade system that allows a new reader the entire run of X-Men books in a totally user-friendly order...

WhindamPryce
06-09-2011, 07:01 AM
You need to concentrate on speaking only for yourself. X-23 is FANTASTIC.

X-23 is doing the same "where do I fit in? am i a killer? do i have a soul?" thing she's been doing for years. Zero forward momentum for the character since the Yost / Kyle New X-men days.

Can you name a single, memorable moment that the character has had since she joined X-men? I guess she cut up some people here and there, lost her arm, etc... but can you point to a good Laura moment that defined her character? She's as much of a blank slate as she was originally, perhaps a little softer now in the IMAKILLYOUSUCKA department.

Gregory
06-09-2011, 07:03 AM
Any linkerage for a brotha? Or me, perhaps?

Ska-pow. (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=preview&id=8904)

justjeffery
06-09-2011, 07:06 AM
Woot! I can finish my run and not have to keep buying! Anyone got an issue 94 they want to part with?

Brother Power the Gong
06-09-2011, 07:13 AM
Ska-pow. (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=preview&id=8904)

Boomshot! Thanks. Looks like the UN goes bye-bye.

artimoff
06-09-2011, 07:35 AM
This week has made me feel like Kyle in last night's South Park.

gaspar
06-09-2011, 08:03 AM
This actually does make me sad, i've got a complete run from giant size to now & as weird as it may sound, I was always happy that it was the one title that hadn't done the renumber thing over and over.

I have to say, I'm not usually too uber-fanboyish about stuff like this, but this one definitely irks me. This was the first comic book I ever purchased with my own money:
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh22/bwbollom/Misc%20Blog%20Images/X221.jpg
Bought it for 75cents off a Safeway spinner-rack in 1987. I passed up #220 because the cover image grossed me out. Since that day, I've been a fan. Within the last year or so I finally filled in all of the gaps in my Giant-Size #1 / #94 to current run.

It's the one series that, good or bad, I planned to continue buying in single issues to keep my run complete. I don't buy everything with an X on it...just Uncanny and whatever looks fun at the time. I guess my run is just about complete.


Woot! I can finish my run and not have to keep buying! Anyone got an issue 94 they want to part with?

That's the only interesting thing about this for me. I'll be able to store GS1/#94 through #544 in a few boxes and be done with it. Then I can seriously start working on my #1-93 set...already got a decent jumpstart on it (nothing as cool as justjerrery's, but we all gotta start somewhere), and it gives me a new list to search for at SDCC this year.

If / when they revert to the classic Uncanny numbering system I'll have to decide if it's worth filling in the gaps. My guess is I'll end up leaving it as is. :mad: :surrend:

Brother Power the Gong
06-09-2011, 08:11 AM
I'd put money on getting two new X-books out of this.

WhindamPryce
06-09-2011, 08:16 AM
I'd put money on getting two new X-books out of this.

Time to bring back the Blue and Gold teams of the 90s.



Since... yknow... the 90s are back in.

DaveCummings
06-09-2011, 08:18 AM
If they relaunch it with a fantastic creative team. I mean, aside from Uncanny X-Force, I haven't really read an X-book since Whedon's run, aside from the Astonishing X-Men issues Jason Pearson drew. I mean, I saw the preview for Schism and was like "holy shit, Quentin Quire is back!!" only to find out on Wikipedia that he's been back for awhile. The X-books haven't hooked me for a long time and I think that they've been long overdue for a relaunch of sorts that they seem to do every few years or so.

HomerGator
06-09-2011, 08:23 AM
Exactly how I feel.

Ditto.

Gregory
06-09-2011, 08:24 AM
Allow me to praise the X-team for this: They escorted Jean to the stage exit, and there she has essentially remained, cleaning up a big chunk of continuity mess.

Kedd
06-09-2011, 08:30 AM
I wonder what happens next.

joeAR
06-09-2011, 08:31 AM
I wonder if any of the other X-Books are going to be cancelled? Legacy, Astonishing, and X-Men

Masculine Todd
06-09-2011, 08:32 AM
I'm a trade reader only (with few exceptions). I'm the piss in the pool here, because Uncanny X-Men ending and likely getting a relaunch/rebranding doesn't mean much to me, I guess. If it signifies a new story/era/direction for the line, that's cool. Marvel's hurting for press right now, given this DC reboot thing. This is a good way to get some.

joeAR
06-09-2011, 08:35 AM
I'm a trade reader only (with few exceptions). I'm the piss in the pool here, because Uncanny X-Men ending and likely getting a relaunch/rebranding doesn't mean much to me, I guess. If it signifies a new story/era/direction for the line, that's cool. Marvel's hurting for press right now, given this DC reboot thing. This is a good way to get some.


1991 Chris Claremont and Jim Lee launched X-Men #1
2001 Grant Morrison and Frank Quitely launched New X-Men #114
We're do for a big relaunch

allanpat
06-09-2011, 08:36 AM
I'd put money on getting two new X-books out of this.

yeah, i'm curious if Uncanny X-Force is going away too, or if Logan is going to be leading 2 X-teams.

in all honesty, Uncanny X-Force feels more like the lead X-book than any other X-book has in a long time. It's focused on a team that actually has a purpose & does stuff. Gillen's been kicking ass on Uncanny, but he's still stuck trying to do clean-up work from New X-Men, Astonishing & Fraction's Uncanny.

I'm highly looking forward to new X-books moving towards the future rather than always playing continuity cleanup

The Dean
06-09-2011, 08:36 AM
They'll relaunch it, run it for three years until they get close to 600, then renumber it again.

Yup. Look what happened to the FF (and will again.)

NickT
06-09-2011, 08:39 AM
I've been criticizing DC's decision up and down the board. But more for the glut of titles they are unleashing on the market to compete against themselves and the lack of clarity for retailers and potential consumers. If you're going to reboot, reboot.
I don't think relaunching and rebooting have to mean the same thing though. Indeed, I think in some ways DC would have been better off without all the rebooting and just gave the number ones and starting points.

artimoff
06-09-2011, 08:45 AM
They shouldn't relaunch it. Let it rest until Schism is over & then launch it with number 545.

WhindamPryce
06-09-2011, 08:48 AM
I hope Astonishing is canceled. It serves zero purpose.

And Way & Pearson are not the marquee names that Whedon and Ellis were.

WhindamPryce
06-09-2011, 08:49 AM
I hope Mike Choi is put on a book. And I hope the Dodsons remain too.

I like Land, so I'm cool if he stays. But just to get the bitching to stop, I'd be okay with Land leaving. :lol:

Gregory
06-09-2011, 08:50 AM
I hope Astonishing is canceled. It serves zero purpose.

And Way & Pearson are not the marquee names that Whedon and Ellis were.

Pearson can be if he would complete an arc. Pichelli is gonna steal his heat.

Brother Power the Gong
06-09-2011, 08:58 AM
yeah, i'm curious if Uncanny X-Force is going away too, or if Logan is going to be leading 2 X-teams.

in all honesty, Uncanny X-Force feels more like the lead X-book than any other X-book has in a long time. It's focused on a team that actually has a purpose & does stuff. Gillen's been kicking ass on Uncanny, but he's still stuck trying to do clean-up work from New X-Men, Astonishing & Fraction's Uncanny.

I'm highly looking forward to new X-books moving towards the future rather than always playing continuity cleanup

If they cancel UXF and don't assign Remender another, I will weep tears of blood. That is far and away the best X-book — and I think the line is pretty strong. That said, if Wolvie becomes a "Leader," then UXF seems a bit redundant — at least with him.

I agree on UXM, but I have really liked it.

WhindamPryce
06-09-2011, 08:58 AM
Pearson can be if he would complete an arc. Pichelli is gonna steal his heat.

Pichelli's on the USM relaunch, right?

The guy I want front and center is Rafa Sandoval. :rock:

Pearson has never been my cup of tea. But even without him, the current Japan monsters arc is just not big enough for "Astonishing".

WhindamPryce
06-09-2011, 09:00 AM
If they cancel UXF and don't assign Remender another, I will weep tears of blood. That is far and away the best X-book — and I think the line is pretty strong. That said, if Wolvie becomes a "Leader," then UXF seems a bit redundant — at least with him.

I agree on UXM, but I have really liked it.

I doubt X-force is going away. Remender's got long-term plans. (though that doesn't mean anything if editorial wants to relaunch)

I'm sure Marvel's gonna pull a stunt or two to compete with DC, but I don't think they're gonna relaunch much. The Avengers books just restarted. The Ultimate U is about to restart. The rest (like DD, Punisher, FF, etc) just got restarted too.

Yeah Marvel's fine.

Gregory
06-09-2011, 09:08 AM
Pichelli's on the USM relaunch, right? .

Yes, and she's doing a fill-in on this AXM arc. She's really good.

artimoff
06-09-2011, 09:09 AM
I want X-Men Unlimited back.

HOOKS
06-09-2011, 09:13 AM
If they cancel UXF and don't assign Remender another, I will weep tears of blood. That is far and away the best X-book — and I think the line is pretty strong. That said, if Wolvie becomes a "Leader," then UXF seems a bit redundant — at least with him.

I agree on UXM, but I have really liked it.

I foresee four books with X-Men in the title, with each written by Aaron, Remender, Carey or Gillen. Whether these will be new books or pre-existing books sans Uncanny, we'll find out soon enough. But if they do decide to relaunch the entire line, I see NEW MUTANTS, DAKEN and X-23 (regardless of quality) being goners.

WOLVERINE and X-FACTOR ain't going nowhere.

In an ideal world, if we have to see constant #1s on books, we'd see more volumes/seasons of titles. DC had a great missed opportunity to really rethink how monthly comics are published.

joeAR
06-09-2011, 09:15 AM
I foresee four books with X-Men in the title, with each written by Aaron, Remender, Carey or Gillen. Whether these will be new books or pre-existing books sans Uncanny, we'll find out soon enough. But if they do decide to relaunch the entire line, I see NEW MUTANTS, DAKEN and X-23 being goners.

WOLVERINE and X-FACTOR ain't going nowhere.


I would be happy with this

McGill
06-09-2011, 09:21 AM
I'd put money on getting two new X-books out of this.

Didn't they report this a long time ago?
One with wolverine leading and one with cyclops leading?

McGill
06-09-2011, 09:22 AM
I hope Astonishing is canceled. It serves zero purpose.

And Way & Pearson are not the marquee names that Whedon and Ellis were.

The art has gotten childish.

NickT
06-09-2011, 09:25 AM
Looking at that cover, I assume Cyclops is about to walk past a red dog house with a dog lying on top :)

Brother Power the Gong
06-09-2011, 09:25 AM
I foresee four books with X-Men in the title, with each written by Aaron, Remender, Carey or Gillen. Whether these will be new books or pre-existing books sans Uncanny, we'll find out soon enough. But if they do decide to relaunch the entire line, I see NEW MUTANTS, DAKEN and X-23 (regardless of quality) being goners.

WOLVERINE and X-FACTOR ain't going nowhere.

In an ideal world, if we have to see constant #1s on books, we'd see more volumes/seasons of titles. DC had a great missed opportunity to really rethink how monthly comics are published.

I agree with this — if numbers are a scary, then every 6, 10 or 12 reboot 'em. And number the trades as a Vol. 1, 2, 3, etc.


Didn't they report this a long time ago?
One with wolverine leading and one with cyclops leading?

Did they? I missed that (which ain't all that hard). Interesting.

allanpat
06-09-2011, 09:40 AM
But if they do decide to relaunch the entire line, I see NEW MUTANTS, DAKEN and X-23 (regardless of quality) being goners.

Nah, they just did a big relaunch push for all 3 of those books. They'll still be around. I think this is just a reshuffle of the main X-Men books - Uncanny, Astonishing, Legacy, X-Men

SidekicksRevenge
06-09-2011, 09:44 AM
I agree with this — if numbers are a scary, then every 6, 10 or 12 reboot 'em. And number the trades as a Vol. 1, 2, 3, etc.

The counter-argument to this, which I don't buy but shall share in the interest of the discussion, is that TPB vol. 32 is more intimidating than issue #534.

Honestly, I would love to see streamlined collections that were easy to follow based on the spine of the book from any publisher.

gaspar
06-09-2011, 09:49 AM
I agree with this — if numbers are a scary, then every 6, 10 or 12 reboot 'em. And number the trades as a Vol. 1, 2, 3, etc.

That would actually make sense. Kind of like what they are / were doing with Ultimates...more like TV seasons. Put out an arc, collect it in TPB and start a new one. If they did this with ALL titles, I wouldn't mind the constant restart / reboot stuff. As it is now, it's just annoying.

Andrew
06-09-2011, 09:50 AM
I doubt X-force is going away. Remender's got long-term plans. (though that doesn't mean anything if editorial wants to relaunch)

I'm sure Marvel's gonna pull a stunt or two to compete with DC, but I don't think they're gonna relaunch much. The Avengers books just restarted. The Ultimate U is about to restart. The rest (like DD, Punisher, FF, etc) just got restarted too.

Yeah Marvel's fine.

Marvel shouldn't be worried about trying to compete with DC's upcoming reboot anyway; I have a feeling that it's going to backfire on DC.

Brother Power the Gong
06-09-2011, 09:54 AM
The counter-argument to this, which I don't buy but shall share in the interest of the discussion, is that TPB vol. 32 is more intimidating than issue #534.

Honestly, I would love to see streamlined collections that were easy to follow based on the spine of the book from any publisher.

I can't disagree with you, but that is the nature of serialized fiction (or history). The longer it goes, the more impenetrable it seems. Story titles are often meaningless to new readers. Unless there are guides to guide the reader posted where the books are sold — online and in stores — I don't know how to fix that.

Many people will take a dive with a No. 1, so maybe running a series of arcs and closing them (Vol. 1: 1-6, Vol. 2: 1-6, etc.) might be the only way to go.

Yeah, design consistency goes a long way, too.

The Robot Lord of Tokyo
06-09-2011, 10:16 AM
After both this and D.C.'s reboot I can't help but feel that the industry is ignoring and disrespecting it's long time readership. I get that the goal is to draw in new readers and to create a new jump in point but does it make sense?

Do you really have to disregard the pride in having a title that's been around since the 60's and relaunching it just to reap a small boost in sales for a few months? And if they change the numbering back after a few years? All that's doing is giving the middle finger again to everyone.

If the industry is going to crash again like it did in the 90's then you might look no further then 2011 as the year that sparked it.

GelfXIII
06-09-2011, 10:17 AM
Wow. I haven't bought a new comic book in several years now, but this makes me sad. Feels like the end of an era.

Liquid
06-09-2011, 10:23 AM
They'll relaunch it, run it for three years until they get close to 600, then renumber it again.

Exactly! But the thing that's really bugging me is that I have a feeling they were going to let it run, especially after Brevoort's comments, but then changed their minds because of DC's recent rebooted #1's.

Spidey616
06-09-2011, 12:58 PM
:surrend:

Well, at least there's still X-men: Legacy

atxbomber
06-09-2011, 02:26 PM
After both this and D.C.'s reboot I can't help but feel that the industry is ignoring and disrespecting it's long time readership. I get that the goal is to draw in new readers and to create a new jump in point but does it make sense?

Do you really have to disregard the pride in having a title that's been around since the 60's and relaunching it just to reap a small boost in sales for a few months? And if they change the numbering back after a few years? All that's doing is giving the middle finger again to everyone.

If the industry is going to crash again like it did in the 90's then you might look no further then 2011 as the year that sparked it.

I'm a long time fan (23+ years of reading Uncanny) and I don't feel that way at all. I personally think this is an exciting time to be an x-fan.

Bill!
06-09-2011, 03:08 PM
Fuck you Marvel.

Thanks to the mouth breathers who believe in dollars over creativity and tradition. You've been a boon to the industry for 20 years.

Mike McNeely
06-09-2011, 03:10 PM
*sigh*

southsidejohnny
06-09-2011, 03:15 PM
no one will miss X-23.
.

speak for yourself.

WhindamPryce
06-09-2011, 03:16 PM
speak for yourself.

Never!

Brother Power the Gong
06-09-2011, 04:07 PM
Never!

Speak the truth, brother!











As you — and you alone — see it. You speak for us all. And by "all of us," I mean just you.

WhindamPryce
06-09-2011, 04:27 PM
Speak the truth, brother!











As you — and you alone — see it. You speak for us all. And by "all of us," I mean just you.

... damn!

NeverWanderer
06-09-2011, 04:41 PM
Between this and learning that "my" era of DC comics is coming to an end... I'm kind of sad. :(

dEnny!
06-09-2011, 04:56 PM
I am 90% trades myself, but this and DC's news may push me to 100%

Yep.

dEnny!
06-09-2011, 04:59 PM
This news just after JustJeffery almost completes an entire run of this title. I've got a run from Giant Size X-Men #1/#94 up.

I'm not a fan of this decision, especially ending on issue #544...come on, you couldn't wait until #550.

Of course I'm sure they will relaunch Uncanny X-Men and bring back the original numbering. I thought this title would be the one not to go down this path.

Mark Mavro (kryptic6)
06-09-2011, 05:00 PM
It's sucks that this is seriously what it takes to sell comics. Renumbering. There's a much bigger problem at large for the industry if this is the number one marketing tool to up sales.

Maestro
06-09-2011, 05:24 PM
Jason Aaron writing the new X-Men series would help me cope with this devastating news.

Joe Henderson
06-09-2011, 05:31 PM
Jason Aaron writing the new X-Men series would help me cope with this devastating news.

Love this idea, though I have to say Gillen is doing a fantastic job right now.

Mark Mavro (kryptic6)
06-09-2011, 05:45 PM
I think Marvel should hand the keys over to Hickman and let his imagination run wild with Jason Aaron right beside him.

Andrew
06-09-2011, 05:55 PM
Fuck you Marvel.

Thanks to the mouth breathers who believe in dollars over creativity and tradition. You've been a boon to the industry for 20 years.

It's such a waste. Take a look at the sales charts of the last couple of years and you'll see that renumbering doesn't work like it used to. It gives a one, maybe two month sales bump, and then goes right back down to what it was. Some recent relaunches have even resulted in lost sales from where they were prior to the reboot in as little as 3 months.

The Funketeer
06-09-2011, 06:00 PM
Normally I don't care too much about numbering if it doesn't interrupt the flow of whatever story is being told but this one gets to me. Uncanny X-Men 193 and 194 were the first two comics I ever bought and I haven't missed an issue since then. I even suffered through the Chuck Austen issues.

Andrew
06-09-2011, 06:05 PM
Normally I don't care too much about numbering if it doesn't interrupt the flow of whatever story is being told but this one gets to me. Uncanny X-Men 193 and 194 were the first two comics I ever bought and I haven't missed an issue since then. I even suffered through the Chuck Austen issues.

Indeed, Uncanny X-Men is one of two Marvel series that are known to have a certain segment of fans that buy the book through thick and thin in order to maintain a complete collection (with the other being Amazing Spider-Man). Relaunching this book could backfire on Marvel pretty badly (as many will recall it did to Amazing Spider-Man when it was relaunched in the late '90s, though it didn't help that the Mackie/Byrne stories were terrible).

Jason California
06-09-2011, 06:30 PM
Normally I don't care too much about numbering if it doesn't interrupt the flow of whatever story is being told but this one gets to me. Uncanny X-Men 193 and 194 were the first two comics I ever bought and I haven't missed an issue since then. I even suffered through the Chuck Austen issues.

I never missed an issue from 273 until the end of Messiah CompleX, whenever that was. I am thinking about picking up the missing issues now to have as close to a whole set as possible. I have everything from 150 going on, with various issues before that. I can appreciate the emotions you are dealing with, but I think it si for the best long run. In the end, I think high numbers are detrimental to comics.

gaspar
06-09-2011, 07:34 PM
Normally I don't care too much about numbering if it doesn't interrupt the flow of whatever story is being told but this one gets to me. Uncanny X-Men 193 and 194 were the first two comics I ever bought and I haven't missed an issue since then. I even suffered through the Chuck Austen issues.

I'm right there with you. I typically don't care about renumbering, but this is one that I just dislike. I've only stopped buying Uncanny for one stretch since my first issue (#221) and it just so happened that I missed Gambit's first appearance, the first Jim Lee X-Men art, etc. Since I got back into comics shortly after that, I've consistently purchased Uncanny, good or bad, every month. I really feel like they're just giving me a good reason to stop buying. Might have to end my run when Marvel does and switch to TPBs or just drop it all together if the new story arc doesn't seem all that interesting.

It's even more annoying KNOWING that they'll pick up the old numbering in a couple of years. It happens EVERY time, why would this one be different? It's just a sales gimmick and then we'll get a "BECAUSE YOU DEMANDED IT!" ad and a return to old numbering at least in time to hit #600. Ugh.


I can appreciate the emotions you are dealing with, but I think it si for the best long run. In the end, I think high numbers are detrimental to comics.

I don't understand that at all. I get that Marvel will (likely) get a sales bump for #1 and maybe even for the first few months, but if it isn't FANTASTIC, you're quickly going to get to issue #8 or 12 when it's no longer "new" and the numbers will be right back where they started. That's why I could understand going to a "seasons" type system (you'll get a new #1 and easy jumping on point every 6months to a year), but just restarting with new numbering doesn't make sense to me at all.

Why would high numbering be detrimental? I guess it might be intimidating to some, but when I jumped in at #221 I didn't think "OMG! I'll never understand what's going on...why even bother?!?" I thought it was cool that there was all sorts of stuff that had happened and that I could go back and learn about. I bought the next few months worth and enjoyed them. Then I was at the mall one day and the bookstore had the Phoenix Saga TPB and the Claremont / Miller Wolverine TPB...I devoured those and was completely in love!

Brother Power the Gong
06-09-2011, 07:43 PM
I never missed an issue from 273 until the end of Messiah CompleX, whenever that was. I am thinking about picking up the missing issues now to have as close to a whole set as possible. I have everything from 150 going on, with various issues before that. I can appreciate the emotions you are dealing with, but I think it si for the best long run. In the end, I think high numbers are detrimental to comics.

I think high numbers can be less scary when you slap a Title + Chapter Number on the cover.

I think breaking up a series with a No. 1, then resuming the old numbering is more "detrimental."

Quotes not meant to be dismissive, btw. Long-running serialized fiction is always going to have this problem.

The Cable Guy
06-09-2011, 07:46 PM
Well this sucks!

Is there really a marketing strategy behind this?

Brother Power the Gong
06-09-2011, 07:50 PM
Well this sucks!

Is there really a marketing strategy behind this?

Being Marvel's longest-running title is an albatross, apparently.

I guess post-Schism, there will be no X-Men, but Claremont made that scenario work (subjective) and Brubaker did it in Cap (not subjective).

Andrew
06-09-2011, 07:51 PM
Well this sucks!

Is there really a marketing strategy behind this?

Apparently not, because renumberig isn't the sales booster that it used to be (beyond the first month or two). See Daken: Dark Wolverine and even the Ultimate books for recent examples of how renumberings have actually led to lower sales than they had pre-renumbering.

Brother Power the Gong
06-09-2011, 07:55 PM
Apparently not, because renumberig isn't the sales booster that it used to be (beyond the first month or two). See Daken: Dark Wolverine and even the Ultimate books for recent examples of how renumberings have actually led to lower sales than they had pre-renumbering.

Jumping-on points are also great jumping-off points.

gaspar
06-09-2011, 07:57 PM
Jumping-on points are also great jumping-off points.

Truth.

Brother Power the Gong
06-09-2011, 08:00 PM
Truth.

I know no good reason why UXM needs a new No. 1. Keep it as the constant, and let the other books come, go and change.

This also applies to Action, Detective, Superman and Batman.

S. Earl
06-09-2011, 08:08 PM
Jumping-on points are also great jumping-off points.

Did someone tell DC this?

Brother Power the Gong
06-09-2011, 08:11 PM
Did someone tell DC this?

I will soon enough. The books I am interested in could have been launched without this — and, as it is, I am dropping more books than I am picking up.

The Robot Lord of Tokyo
06-09-2011, 08:23 PM
The only way I would be fine with this is as long as it doesn't revert back to original numbering for issue 600.
If they relaunched, stuck to their guns and told a different kind of story then what's in Uncanny right now, then good for them.

But you know they won't. Come issue 600 you will have all the promos celebrating 600 issues and to make the money off people wanting to buy that numbered issue you'll see the revert.

It's a lot like someone that says they hate celebrating birthdays but once a milestone birthday happens then all of the sudden it's important to them.

HOOKS
06-09-2011, 08:29 PM
Did someone tell DC this?

A big problem DC has is their lack of clarity in their relaunch and the amount of books that will be competing against each other.

I will just report something I wrote in the DC thread the other day:

How Not To Relaunch A Comic Line, by DC Comics

Step One: Launch 52 books in same month.
Step Two: Change nothing about the format, content or release schedule of said books.
Step Three: Launch multiple books featuring the same character w/ nothing differentiating books from each other beyond slight title change

Should new DC Comics readers pick up BATMAN, BATMAN: THE DARK KNIGHT, BATMAN AND ROBIN, or DETECTIVE COMICS which stars (waitforit) Batman? Or should they go in with the female version of Batman, BATWOMAN, also starring in her own title? And possibly BATGIRL as well?

DC is relaunching an entire line of books in a struggling industry and putting them in the market at same time to compete against each other. The only strategic difference in what will be published in August 2011 versus what will be published in September 2011 is the number on the corner of the books and the addition of digital distribution, which doesn't go far enough in price to make a true difference in digital. Is there anything beyond the new numbering on the comics that will really make anyone beyond existing readers stand up and take notice?

These might be good stories, and the talent involved doesn't make me think otherwise, but the shelves will look the same in September 2012 and the problem in terms of gaining new readership for the industry will remain.

JJ Fresh
06-09-2011, 08:31 PM
I got off the "Uncanny" wagon with the end of the "Quarantine" arc and haven't looked back at all, despite it being a title I collected since the early 300s. Now I kind of wish I had a nice ending to it all with this final issue; but I know it'll be out of pity since I stopped enjoying the title for several issues before I cut it off the pull list. I have been hearing good things about Gillen's work, so maybe one day when those missing issues go to the dollar bins.

Supreme Convoy
06-09-2011, 08:34 PM
We all know that it'll get relaunched at some point, but it's still pretty shocking.

Jason California
06-09-2011, 09:07 PM
I don't understand that at all. I get that Marvel will (likely) get a sales bump for #1 and maybe even for the first few months, but if it isn't FANTASTIC, you're quickly going to get to issue #8 or 12 when it's no longer "new" and the numbers will be right back where they started. That's why I could understand going to a "seasons" type system (you'll get a new #1 and easy jumping on point every 6months to a year), but just restarting with new numbering doesn't make sense to me at all.

Why would high numbering be detrimental? I guess it might be intimidating to some, but when I jumped in at #221 I didn't think "OMG! I'll never understand what's going on...why even bother?!?" I thought it was cool that there was all sorts of stuff that had happened and that I could go back and learn about. I bought the next few months worth and enjoyed them. Then I was at the mall one day and the bookstore had the Phoenix Saga TPB and the Claremont / Miller Wolverine TPB...I devoured those and was completely in love!


I think high numbers can be less scary when you slap a Title + Chapter Number on the cover.

I think breaking up a series with a No. 1, then resuming the old numbering is more "detrimental."

Quotes not meant to be dismissive, btw. Long-running serialized fiction is always going to have this problem.

I got tired of only getting the allusion of change in a world Where tomorrow will never come. The largest contributing factor my discontinuing my regular monthly reading was the sense of being on a never ending merry go round, where the only thing changing is that more people are getting on the ride. It got to be too much for me. This large, ever growing number was just a symbol of it.

The thing that has me anticipating the DC relaunch the most is the sense of starting anew, and not being tied to what came before.

Andrew
06-09-2011, 09:30 PM
Jumping-on points are also great jumping-off points.

Absolutely.


I know no good reason why UXM needs a new No. 1. Keep it as the constant, and let the other books come, go and change.

This also applies to Action, Detective, Superman and Batman.

Rebooting Action and Detective after around 900 issues each is just silly. Those books, above all else, would have a contingent of people who buy them month after month just for maintaining their big collections. They will almost certainly lose sales after being rebooted.


The thing that has me anticipating the DC relaunch the most is the sense of starting anew, and not being tied to what came before.

If you're talking about a narrative reboot that starts fresh with new continuity, yes. But renumbering just for the sake of renumbering while changing nothing significant about the stories themselves or the continuity is just silly, which is what's ultimately going to be the case with Uncanny X-Men.

Maestro
06-09-2011, 09:49 PM
at this point, it's only a matter of time until Amazing Spider-Man is next.

Jason California
06-09-2011, 09:54 PM
at this point, it's only a matter of time until Amazing Spider-Man is next.

Amazing already did it once before.

Jason California
06-09-2011, 09:55 PM
Numbers don't mean anything anymore anyways. Issue numbers are only as important as whatever marketing can get out of it.

Chacalo
06-09-2011, 09:58 PM
For some reason I get a kick out of restarted series later picking up old numbering, like JMS Thor.

Andrew
06-09-2011, 10:15 PM
For some reason I get a kick out of restarted series later picking up old numbering, like JMS Thor.

I hope that we get a Wolverine #300 next year. It's the only Marvel series that started in the '80s that's still being published.

Mattman
06-09-2011, 10:17 PM
Numbers don't mean anything anymore anyways. Issue numbers are only as important as whatever marketing can get out of it.
Bullshit.

Jason California
06-09-2011, 10:20 PM
Bullshit.

cool.

Liquid
06-09-2011, 10:29 PM
I think Marvel should hand the keys over to Hickman and let his imagination run wild with Jason Aaron right beside him.

I agree.

And is it just me, or am I the only one hoping that at least one of the teams returns to NY? I feel like there's something missing ever since they moved to SF. It's almost like if Batman moved out of Gotham. Ok, not that bad, pretty close.

David Aspmo
06-09-2011, 10:41 PM
I'll never understand why, even if they want to put a big #1 on the cover, they can't just leave the original numbering in the indicia.

gaspar
06-09-2011, 10:49 PM
I'll never understand why, even if they want to put a big #1 on the cover, they can't just leave the original numbering in the indicia.

Because that would make sense. Especially since it will happen eventually anyway as just about every reboot so far has shown.

Mattman
06-09-2011, 11:07 PM
cool.
It's true. Sales figures show starting over with a #1 only lifts sales for a month or two. It doesn't bring in new readers. It just gives old readers an excuse to stop buying that particular title. I have no idea why this is still being argued.

Jason California
06-09-2011, 11:22 PM
It's true. Sales figures show starting over with a #1 only lifts sales for a month or two. It doesn't bring in new readers. It just gives old readers an excuse to stop buying that particular title. I have no idea why this is still being argued.


That's great. I was not addressing that.

Mattman
06-09-2011, 11:31 PM
That's great. I was not addressing that.
Well I was when I said "bullshit".

Brother Power the Gong
06-10-2011, 03:09 AM
Absolutely.

Rebooting Action and Detective after around 900 issues each is just silly. Those books, above all else, would have a contingent of people who buy them month after month just for maintaining their big collections. They will almost certainly lose sales after being rebooted.

If you're talking about a narrative reboot that starts fresh with new continuity, yes. But renumbering just for the sake of renumbering while changing nothing significant about the stories themselves or the continuity is just silly, which is what's ultimately going to be the case with Uncanny X-Men.

We understand each other.

dEnny!
06-10-2011, 03:12 AM
Amazing already did it once before.

Unnecessarily I might add.

Ben
06-10-2011, 04:40 AM
Unnecessarily I might add.With one of the ugliest issue #1 covers evar!

Bervda
06-10-2011, 05:02 AM
Amazing already did it once before.

And see how big of a deal it ended up being in the long run!?

Masculine Todd
06-10-2011, 07:07 AM
Then I was at the mall one day and the bookstore had the Phoenix Saga TPB and the Claremont / Miller Wolverine TPB...I devoured those and was completely in love!

But that mainstream, non-direct market retailer landscape is vastly different. There's a cavalcade of books to choose from, especially with the X-Men. If one were to find themselves reading a recent issue of Uncanny by way of Marvel's digital store or the few grocery stores who've started carrying single issues again, and was enamored with what they'd read and wanted more, can you imagine how overwhelmed they'd be seeing all those X-Men trades - many with different numbering.

Chris Claremont's Uncanny tpb run from '04-'06 had its own numbering from Austen's Uncanny run in '02-'04, though they both inform each other. There's New X-Men by Morrison sitting next to New X-Men: Academy X trades.

One of my biggest gripes is how convoluted and needlessly complicated navigating through trades can be. I do it because, despite hardly reading any singles, I post here, occasionally read comic sites and do research on the trades. If you weren't actively doing that, I imagine it'd be a relatively difficult task to wade though the X-selection at a Barnes & Noble. Admittedly, that isn't due to constant relaunches, as we've seen different creator runs receive different numbering, different trade dresses, etc. It's not just relaunches.

For all this "renumbering is good or bad," the die-hards probably aren't leaving because of it, so it's a non-issue. This is much ado about nothing. Most of us had that "left and returned to comics" experience, and the numbering probably wasn't what compelled us to pick up Bendis' Daredevil and decide we wanted to keep reading. What should become a priority is how these books, relaunches, ect. effect the mass-market. Cohesive, uniform trade dresses, designs, layouts, etc. are important. Making it easy for casual readers to follow from run to run on a book is important. Making it instantly discernible that "this is the order" or "this is still an Uncanny X-Men book" is important.

Masculine Todd
06-10-2011, 07:10 AM
It just gives old readers an excuse to stop buying that particular title.

But do they? Do they in any measurable number? Sure, the relaunch won't sustain the initial #1 or #2 sales boost, but have we seen a pattern of books dipping below their previous level? And if a pattern exists, is it because the renumbering or creative team?

Jason California
06-10-2011, 07:13 AM
And see how big of a deal it ended up being in the long run!?


exactly. issue numbers don't matter. Uncanny X-Men v2 45 will probably be issue 600. wash rinse repeat.

SidekicksRevenge
06-10-2011, 07:15 AM
exactly. issue numbers don't matter. Uncanny X-Men v2 45 will probably be issue 600. wash rinse repeat.

I will never, ever understand the angst surrounding renumbering. Would I prefer it never happened from an "ease of finding old stuff" standpoint? Of course. Do I care otherwise? No. Not at all.

Jef UK
06-10-2011, 07:23 AM
It's still a bummer, even if there aren't good reasons for it to bum me out. This was the book I was into since 4th grade.

information
06-10-2011, 07:33 AM
They've realized that an issue #1 will sell more than an issue #545.

But they're forgetting that an issue #6 will sell less than an issue #550.

modungo
06-10-2011, 07:38 AM
I think all comics should adopt Milk & Cheese's Numbering system.

Ben
06-10-2011, 08:05 AM
I will never, ever understand the angst surrounding renumbering. Would I prefer it never happened from an "ease of finding old stuff" standpoint? Of course. Do I care otherwise? No. Not at all.Maybe if you were more organized you'd understand, you slob.

Jef UK
06-10-2011, 08:24 AM
Maybe if you were more organized you'd understand, you slob.

Maybe he's a psychopath without empathy.

Zac Goyette
06-10-2011, 08:26 AM
Kind of sorry to see it end, but I'm surprised it took this long. Every major franchise has been rebooted. As long as the story is good it really doesn't matter that much. Oh well, it will return to original numbering at 600. I have every issue from 180 up to current.

gaspar
06-10-2011, 08:29 AM
But that mainstream, non-direct market retailer landscape is vastly different. There's a cavalcade of books to choose from, especially with the X-Men. If one were to find themselves reading a recent issue of Uncanny by way of Marvel's digital store or the few grocery stores who've started carrying single issues again, and was enamored with what they'd read and wanted more, can you imagine how overwhelmed they'd be seeing all those X-Men trades - many with different numbering.

Chris Claremont's Uncanny tpb run from '04-'06 had its own numbering from Austen's Uncanny run in '02-'04, though they both inform each other. There's New X-Men by Morrison sitting next to New X-Men: Academy X trades.

One of my biggest gripes is how convoluted and needlessly complicated navigating through trades can be. I do it because, despite hardly reading any singles, I post here, occasionally read comic sites and do research on the trades. If you weren't actively doing that, I imagine it'd be a relatively difficult task to wade though the X-selection at a Barnes & Noble. Admittedly, that isn't due to constant relaunches, as we've seen different creator runs receive different numbering, different trade dresses, etc. It's not just relaunches.

For all this "renumbering is good or bad," the die-hards probably aren't leaving because of it, so it's a non-issue. This is much ado about nothing. Most of us had that "left and returned to comics" experience, and the numbering probably wasn't what compelled us to pick up Bendis' Daredevil and decide we wanted to keep reading. What should become a priority is how these books, relaunches, ect. effect the mass-market. Cohesive, uniform trade dresses, designs, layouts, etc. are important. Making it easy for casual readers to follow from run to run on a book is important. Making it instantly discernible that "this is the order" or "this is still an Uncanny X-Men book" is important.

I get all of that, but how is starting with a new #1 going to fix that? Unless Marvel decides to never reprint the old stuff again, it's still going to be out there "cluttering up" the shelves. So now, you'll have all of those previously printed volumes PLUS the new Uncanny X-Men vol. 2 #1 and potentially whatever other NEW X-Men title they decide to spin out of it if the Gold & Blue team rehash idea is what actually happens.

They're not fixing this previous continuity / cluttered bookshelf problem, they're just adding a new level to it. And yes, if you have a new reader come in and ask where to start if they want to read X-Men comics, you can point them to Uncanny X-Men vol. 2 TPB 1. But when they go to look for it, there is still going to be 3 shelves full of previously published TPBs and all of that continuity still exists unless they're doing a complete and total reboot and washing everything else away (which they already tried with the Ultimate line not all that long ago).

I guess I just don't understand how this actually makes sense in either the short term (other than a bump in sales for a handful of issues) or in the grand scheme of the X-Men universe which still will have the same history and continuity troubles in 2012 that it did in 2011.


They've realized that an issue #1 will sell more than an issue #545.

But they're forgetting that an issue #6 will sell less than an issue #550.

Exactly!

artimoff
06-10-2011, 08:29 AM
They need to remove numbers from covers & only have dates.

I've seen many an adult come into my LCS & ask for "May's Buffy" or "the Batman from July 2008".

Then again, these people seem to only buy 1 or 2 titles based on popular characters.

artimoff
06-10-2011, 08:34 AM
I told a friend at work who just got back into comics (He stopped reading just after the Phalanx Covenant when he was 12) that they were canceling Uncanny X-Men because of a mini-series that has Wolverine & Cyclops fighting over what direction the X-Men should go.

He said sarcastically "Cyclops & Wolverine fight? Tha's never happened before"

Brother Power the Gong
06-10-2011, 08:37 AM

They're not fixing this previous continuity / cluttered bookshelf problem, they're just adding a new level to it.…

It's so simple.

Masculine Todd
06-10-2011, 08:44 AM
I get all of that, but how is starting with a new #1 going to fix that?




For all this "renumbering is good or bad," the die-hards probably aren't leaving because of it, so it's a non-issue. What should become a priority is how these books, relaunches, ect. effect the mass-market.

Answered!


Unless Marvel decides to never reprint the old stuff again,

Which they should.

it's still going to be out there "cluttering up" the shelves. So now, you'll have all of those previously printed volumes PLUS the new Uncanny X-Men vol. 2 #1 and potentially whatever other NEW X-Men title they decide to spin out of it if the Gold & Blue team rehash idea is what actually happens.

But even if they were to do an Uncanny vol. 2, trade 1, what kind of volume was the Austen run, and why is it differently numbered than the Claremont run of trades or the Fraction run of trades? This is why the renumbering is really a moot point. Comic fans, the ones who buy singles, will know that it's still Uncanny, and follow the stories. They do the research, and for all their gripes about inaccessibility, they're going to jump on when there's buzz, or a new creative team takes over, hence why this renumbering is a trivial thing.

I contend that the way trades are numbered and designed should take priority, or at the very least, receive more consideration. Casual readers aren't as likely to do the research, navigate the web for a reading order and try to make sense of this disjointed, inconsistent numbering and irregular trade dressing. These trades should have a linear, easily followed design or format to guide readers while at a bookstore. No additional resources should be required when contemplating what to buy next other than the number on the spine and the book's back cover. A relaunch of Uncanny won't really add or subtract to how difficult it already is to determine what trades to read.

gaspar
06-10-2011, 10:27 AM
Answered!
But it's only a non-issue to those who are currently not Uncanny X-Men readers. It's a HUGE issue to a lot of us who are and have been readers for quite some time. As others have said, a restart / reboot jumping on point can also become a very easy jumping off point. I'm considering it myself...possibly switching to TPBs or just getting out completely depending on what is announced about the new storyline.

After reading and posting about this last night, I decided to reorganize my Uncanny collection. I have from GSXM#1 / #94 through the issue currently on store shelves with only 2 missing. (#506 & 507 must have been lost in our most recent move or are in a different longbox somewhere...I'll pick them up again the next time I'm at my LCS.) I've been reading pretty consistently since #221 (20+ years) and before reading this news, I had no intention of discontinuing my collection of monthly single issues. Now it's definitely something I'm considering.


But even if they were to do an Uncanny vol. 2, trade 1, what kind of volume was the Austen run, and why is it differently numbered than the Claremont run of trades or the Fraction run of trades? This is why the renumbering is really a moot point. Comic fans, the ones who buy singles, will know that it's still Uncanny, and follow the stories. They do the research, and for all their gripes about inaccessibility, they're going to jump on when there's buzz, or a new creative team takes over, hence why this renumbering is a trivial thing.

I contend that the way trades are numbered and designed should take priority, or at the very least, receive more consideration. Casual readers aren't as likely to do the research, navigate the web for a reading order and try to make sense of this disjointed, inconsistent numbering and irregular trade dressing. These trades should have a linear, easily followed design or format to guide readers while at a bookstore. No additional resources should be required when contemplating what to buy next other than the number on the spine and the book's back cover. A relaunch of Uncanny won't really add or subtract to how difficult it already is to determine what trades to read.
I think we basically agree...it seems that you just think that the numbering is inconsequential and I think it's important to people who have been along for this ride for multiple years and often decades. It's not a "trivial thing" to the collector who has been in this hobby for years and who Marvel loves to have consistently buy issues each month...until they decide it's more important to spike sales for a couple of issues than to actually try something new and innovative to bring in new readers.

I definitely agree that there should be a consistent trade dress, numbering, etc. but it seems like TPBs get re-released / redesigned way more often than necessary. Even if Marvel decided to go extremely consistent, re-release all of their titles in TPB form with easily identifiable logos, markings, numberings, etc., you still have the possibility of finding and buying the previously released volumes that are currently out on the market. These aren't going away and because of that, there is always going to be some amount of confusion to the brand new reader.

I don't see how this renumbering is going to help in the long run and is has the potential to make things even more confusing to the new reader after the first couple of new story arcs have been published and TPBs released. If they want to fix the numbering and make it easier for new fans, your thoughts on making the TPB system more consistent seem way more valuable than restarting a long running title with a new #1 issue.

Masculine Todd
06-10-2011, 10:49 AM
But it's only a non-issue to those who are currently not Uncanny X-Men readers.

Or trade readers. Regardless, do restarts generally lose the consistent, die-hard fanbase that has gravitated to the book for years? Or, as I inquired earlier:



But do they? Do they in any measurable number? Sure, the relaunch won't sustain the initial #1 or #2 sales boost, but have we seen a pattern of books dipping below their previous level? And if a pattern exists, is it because the renumbering or creative team?


As others have said, a restart / reboot jumping on point can also become a very easy jumping off point.

Yet I remain incredulous. I doubt longterm readers will leave in any measurable amount. If the creative team is good, those who read books based on writers/artists will remain. The others will stay for the characters/the luster of the title "Uncanny." I'm skeptical of this proposed "jumping off point." Any "end of arc/beginning of new arc" issue could be a jumping off point.

Any emotional attachment to the book, it's numbering or its legacy is a non-issue to anyone other than those who share those sentiments. If there's a pattern of reboots/renumbering having a detrimental effect on sales, Marvel wouldn't do it, but seeing as how they're consistently ending and restarting their titles, it would appear that, no, this isn't an issue.



Now it's definitely something I'm considering.

And I'd be willing to bet that you're in the minority (however vocal).



I think we basically agree...it seems that you just think that the numbering is inconsequential

Direct market readers are more likely to stick around and find the linear sequence of events from book relaunch-to-book relaunch than bewildered, potential casual/bookstore buyers/readers. One demographic is much more reliable than the other, hence why I think their priorities are skewed.


but it seems like TPBs get re-released / redesigned way more often than necessary.

Often in ways that further isolate runs/creative teams' stories. But where do you go once you're done with the re-issues/newly designed trades of Mark Waid's Captain America run, especially considering the discrepancies between those trades and any other Cap run.

They need a uniform look or a more streamlined, interconnected way of branding their trades.

David Aspmo
06-10-2011, 11:00 AM
Chris Claremont's Uncanny tpb run from '04-'06 had its own numbering from Austen's Uncanny run in '02-'04, though they both inform each other.
No, they don't. The two runs are very much separate. They contain different casts of characters (aside from Wolverine, but nothing he does in one title effects the other), and tell completely unrelated stories.

Not defending the overly complicated, yet ineffective numbering system on the trades, but I wanted to address this persistent misconception about the current X-Books.

EDIT: Oh, wait, I thought you were talking about the Claremont and Austen runs that were running concurrently in Uncanny and X-Men. Though the point still stands - there really wasn't anything that happened in Austen's run of Uncanny that was continued in Claremont's run. If anything, Austen's run in X-Men is more of a follow up to his Uncanny run than Claremont's is, but it's still self contained enough.

SteveFlack
06-10-2011, 11:30 AM
In the end, if you are considering dropping the book just because it's changing it number scheme: GOOD. DO IT.

I mean, if you really cared about the story or the creators, you wouldn't care if they changed the name of the book, the numbering, the format, or what it's printed on. You'd care about the story and the art. The fanbase who buy the books just because they have a collection are the problem. That's the reason why Marvel feels like they can just trot out whatever they want each month, because they have a built-in audience of people no matter what.

Jason California
06-10-2011, 11:44 AM
In the end, if you are considering dropping the book just because it's changing it number scheme: GOOD. DO IT.

I mean, if you really cared about the story or the creators, you wouldn't care if they changed the name of the book, the numbering, the format, or what it's printed on. You'd care about the story and the art. The fanbase who buy the books just because they have a collection are the problem. That's the reason why Marvel feels like they can just trot out whatever they want each month, because they have a built-in audience of people no matter what.

correct.

SidekicksRevenge
06-10-2011, 11:51 AM
In the end, if you are considering dropping the book just because it's changing it number scheme: GOOD. DO IT.

I mean, if you really cared about the story or the creators, you wouldn't care if they changed the name of the book, the numbering, the format, or what it's printed on. You'd care about the story and the art. The fanbase who buy the books just because they have a collection are the problem. That's the reason why Marvel feels like they can just trot out whatever they want each month, because they have a built-in audience of people no matter what.

I agree with this to a point, but they're also the ones whose staunch loyalty to some titles no matter what fund some of the more deserving lower-tier books.

SteveFlack
06-10-2011, 11:57 AM
I agree with this to a point, but they're also the ones whose staunch loyalty to some titles no matter what fund some of the more deserving lower-tier books.

Meh.

costello
06-10-2011, 12:00 PM
I will never, ever understand the angst surrounding renumbering. Would I prefer it never happened from an "ease of finding old stuff" standpoint? Of course. Do I care otherwise? No. Not at all.

Me either.

Let's try something sort of similar and see if it produces the same results?

Denny, can you reset everyone's post counts?

gaspar
06-10-2011, 12:02 PM
In the end, if you are considering dropping the book just because it's changing it number scheme: GOOD. DO IT.

I mean, if you really cared about the story or the creators, you wouldn't care if they changed the name of the book, the numbering, the format, or what it's printed on. You'd care about the story and the art. The fanbase who buy the books just because they have a collection are the problem. That's the reason why Marvel feels like they can just trot out whatever they want each month, because they have a built-in audience of people no matter what.

I'm a fan and a collector. I wouldn't have collected the issues that I have if I didn't enjoy the series. I still buy them and read them every month. There have been stories I've LOVED and stories I've HATED, but I keep picking them up because I'm also collecting the series. I've gotten fed up in the past and dropped the title, only to restart later when something drew me back in...and eventually I went and bought the back issues that I missed. I'm not saying that I'm definitely leaving the title, but the collector in me sees that they're giving me a stopping point. #544 is the end of the current series. Should I stick with whatever New Uncanny X-Men they release if I don't like the team they're using or the artist / writer that they bring on? Maybe I'll switch over and buy one (or more) of the other several X Titles that I've been ignoring. Or maybe none of it will interest me. I'm going to wait and see what is announced, but the part of me that is an Uncanny X-Men Collector has been told that the series I've been reading for 2+ decades is ending and "something new" will be starting up in it's place. Ok fine...now wow me. Make me want to buy that new #1...#545 would have been automatically pulled for me, but now I have decisions to make.

SteveFlack
06-10-2011, 12:07 PM
Make me want to buy that new #1...#545 would have been automatically pulled for me, but now I have decisions to make.

Congratulations, you broke the habit.

costello
06-10-2011, 12:07 PM
The only problem I had with Marvel (and still do until I have all the issues I want) is the renumbering with Captain America; however, I think it's more than the renumbering. It went from a new series to old numbering to a mini-series to a one-shot back to the old numbering.

I don't care about the numbers when I'm collecting something I missed, or if I don't read the solicits; I just want to be sure I'm picking up what I need to read the story.

That's why I was so scared of joining DC for so long. There will be events and certain comics will be required reading even though I won't have a clue what their main plotlines are... which is why I'm loving Flashpoint and look forward to the relaunch.

SidekicksRevenge
06-10-2011, 12:21 PM
Me either.

Let's try something sort of similar and see if it produces the same results?

Denny, can you reset everyone's post counts?

That. Would. Be. Epic.


Meh.

Thoughtful and eloquent response.

gaspar
06-10-2011, 12:25 PM
Congratulations, you broke the habit.

Meh.

Jason California
06-10-2011, 12:29 PM
Breaking the habit is great guys! I only buy comics I really want now :)

Masculine Todd
06-10-2011, 01:35 PM
Jason and Steve are the only ones making sense to me!

Zac Goyette
06-10-2011, 01:39 PM
They need to remove numbers from covers & only have dates.
I agree.

Andrew
06-10-2011, 01:50 PM
We understand each other.

Yes. :)


They've realized that an issue #1 will sell more than an issue #545.

But they're forgetting that an issue #6 will sell less than an issue #550.

This.

#3 won't sell any more than #547 would have. Infact, based on sales of recently-renumbered series, it might even sell less.

gaspar
06-10-2011, 03:00 PM
Breaking the habit is great guys! I only buy comics I really want now :)

I don't really understand why buying a title because I've been buying it forever and STILL ENJOY IT is such a problem. I do want to buy this comic...I've quit several that I lost interest in. I don't buy 5 copies at the LCS, seal 'em up in mylar and never read them...I read my monthly copy, put it in a box and I'm happy to continue reading a story that I started when I was about 12. Oh well...I guess that's just my problem.


#3 won't sell any more than #547 would have. Infact, based on sales of recently-renumbered series, it might even sell less.

Exactly! It likely won't sell more after the first few issues, will make the single issue numbering more convoluted (especially when they eventually revert back to the old numbering), will make the already difficult to navigate HC / TPB system even more unmanageable, and will piss off a few old timers while (hopefully) drawing in a handful of new fans.

I'm curious to see how this all plays out...much like the DC situation. It seems like a big mess, but I guess I just need to get over it.

Jason California
06-10-2011, 03:09 PM
I don't really understand why buying a title because I've been buying it forever and STILL ENJOY IT is such a problem. I do want to buy this comic...I've quit several that I lost interest in. I don't buy 5 copies at the LCS, seal 'em up in mylar and never read them...I read my monthly copy, put it in a box and I'm happy to continue reading a story that I started when I was about 12. Oh well...I guess that's just my problem.





Don't let me rain on your parade dude. If you like it great. I just see lots of people who get this shit regularly because they always have. It took me a bit to break the cycle. I was glad when I did it.

gaspar
06-10-2011, 03:21 PM
Don't let me rain on your parade dude. If you like it great. I just see lots of people who get this shit regularly because they always have. It took me a bit to break the cycle. I was glad when I did it.

It's all good. I've definitely cut a lot that I used to read just out of habit. Uncanny is the one that I've consistently enjoyed through ups and downs. And even it I've quit on occasion but it ends up being the one that draws me back in.

Andrew
06-10-2011, 03:40 PM
Exactly! It likely won't sell more after the first few issues, will make the single issue numbering more convoluted (especially when they eventually revert back to the old numbering), will make the already difficult to navigate HC / TPB system even more unmanageable, and will piss off a few old timers while (hopefully) drawing in a handful of new fans.

Based on how things are playing out, I can't help but think that the only reason this is happening is so that the companies can boast that they had one or two really good months, or something. There really doesn't seem to be any long-term thinking here.

And despite what anyone says, renumbering will never bring in new readers. The industry has a lot of issues to deal with in that area, but big numbering was never one of them.

SteveFlack
06-10-2011, 09:47 PM
I don't really understand why buying a title because I've been buying it forever and STILL ENJOY IT is such a problem. I do want to buy this comic...I've quit several that I lost interest in. I don't buy 5 copies at the LCS, seal 'em up in mylar and never read them...I read my monthly copy, put it in a box and I'm happy to continue reading a story that I started when I was about 12. Oh well...I guess that's just my problem.

But if you're buying and you're still enjoying it, then why would changing the number on the cover impact wether or not you will buy it?

gaspar
06-11-2011, 07:33 AM
But if you're buying and you're still enjoying it, then why would changing the number on the cover impact wether or not you will buy it?

It's kind of like if there was a TV series that I've been watching for several seasons. Maybe season 4 wasn't as good as the first 3, but I still enjoyed it and kept watching. Then we're at season 8 and it's all good...really been loving it...and they announce that it's going to be cancelled, but they're starting up 1 or 2 new spinoff shows. That's fine. It's their show to cancel and I'll likely check the new ones out, but it's not the same. I was loyal to and a fan of the original show. This new one might have some of the same characters, and might end up being a must see, but they've severed that "loyal fan" factor and are now going to have to make me want to tune in.

Jason California
06-11-2011, 07:35 AM
It's kind of like if there was a TV series that I've been watching for several seasons. Maybe season 4 wasn't as good as the first 3, but I still enjoyed it and kept watching. Then we're at season 8 and it's all good...really been loving it...and they announce that it's going to be cancelled, but they're starting up 1 or 2 new spinoff shows. That's fine. It's their show to cancel and I'll likely check the new ones out, but it's not the same. I was loyal to and a fan of the original show. This new one might have some of the same characters, and might end up being a must see, but they've severed that "loyal fan" factor and are now going to have to make me want to tune in.


What is the difference between

Uncanny X-Men v1 issue 450 All New, All Exciting direction

and
Uncanny X-Men v2 issue 1

Slewo.O
06-11-2011, 07:36 AM
What is the difference between

Uncanny X-Men 450 All New, All Exciting direction

and
Uncanny X-Men 1

The vol 2 in Uncanny #1.

Slewo.O
06-11-2011, 07:36 AM
It's kind of like if there was a TV series that I've been watching for several seasons. Maybe season 4 wasn't as good as the first 3, but I still enjoyed it and kept watching. Then we're at season 8 and it's all good...really been loving it...and they announce that it's going to be cancelled, but they're starting up 1 or 2 new spinoff shows. That's fine. It's their show to cancel and I'll likely check the new ones out, but it's not the same. I was loyal to and a fan of the original show. This new one might have some of the same characters, and might end up being a must see, but they've severed that "loyal fan" factor and are now going to have to make me want to tune in.

Uncanny was cancelled for quite a while, so it's not like it was there constantly.

Jason California
06-11-2011, 07:36 AM
The vol 2 in Uncanny #1.


Cool. Now tell me what that means in real terms.

Slewo.O
06-11-2011, 07:37 AM
Cool. Now tell me what that means in real terms.

:dunno:

That's about all I could think of. It really doesn't mean much to me.

Bill!
06-11-2011, 07:49 AM
Cool. Now tell me what that means in real terms.

Why are you even here?

Jason California
06-11-2011, 07:59 AM
Why are you even here?


Why do you ask?

I think the idea of canceling and restarting is a good idea Bill.

Jason California
06-11-2011, 08:01 AM
And I am sorry I rub you the wrong way Bill. I can appreciate the feeling.

gaspar
06-11-2011, 08:23 AM
What is the difference between

Uncanny X-Men v1 issue 450 All New, All Exciting direction

and
Uncanny X-Men v2 issue 1


The vol 2 in Uncanny #1.

That.

The difference is I'm a reader / fan AND a collector of the comic. It's Marvel's book, they can do what they want. But the collector side of me says "this is a fine jumping off point if I don't like what they do with v2no1." The fan side says "yeah, I'll likely give this a shot and hopefully it will win me over."

The big change for me is that my collection CAN end at #544 because that's when the series that I collect ends. It irritates me because it is unnecessary and as previous restarts have shown, won't do anything more to boost sales than just an "all new, all exciting direction."


Uncanny was cancelled for quite a while, so it's not like it was there constantly.

I wasn't alive and reading back then, so it doesn't impact me. Since I've been reading it, it's been constant.

joeAR
06-11-2011, 08:42 AM
To me it's just a number on a book.

The Robot Lord of Tokyo
06-11-2011, 08:44 AM
Restarting Uncanny doesn't make anything easier for new readers nor does it make a good jumping on point.

Let's say that after Schism that all the teams are split and there are no more X-Men or that there are two different teams. As a new reader you would still be missing a messload of important context to help explain how everything got there. All the events before help define why they are there at that point in their life. From Scott and Logan's change and evolution to who they were and who they are now to all the other rich history, lives, deaths, and events like M-day to the birth of Hope, these are stories that give the characters actions meaning and purpose.

Are 500+ issues of history a lot for a new reader to take in? Yes. But it will be no different for someone who reads Uncanny today and for someone who reads the rebooted version.

If you are going to do volumes of a comics, you almost have to do it from the start. Like Powers. Each volume focuses on a certain phase of Walker's life. The first volume is Walker coming to terms with his new partner and finding out his history. The second volume is Walker gaining new powers, dealing with Callista, and Deena dealing with her demons. And it looks like the third volume is focusing with Walker dealing with past as well as current events that will lead to a bleak future. This all works in this format. Uncanny doesn't.

I will respect all the perspectives and opinions about this topics but from my perspective I just can't be sold on why this needs to happen.

SidekicksRevenge
06-11-2011, 08:48 AM
Stupid question:

Do we know for sure that there's going to be an immediate re-lauch?

I mean, for all we know isn't this cancellation going to be followed by X-Men: Team Logan and X-Men: Team Scott?

We'll see something called Uncanny X-Men again someday, but do we know that it's going to be a month after cancellation?

Jason California
06-11-2011, 09:24 AM
That.

The difference is I'm a reader / fan AND a collector of the comic. It's Marvel's book, they can do what they want. But the collector side of me says "this is a fine jumping off point if I don't like what they do with v2no1." The fan side says "yeah, I'll likely give this a shot and hopefully it will win me over."

The big change for me is that my collection CAN end at #544 because that's when the series that I collect ends. It irritates me because it is unnecessary and as previous restarts have shown, won't do anything more to boost sales than just an "all new, all exciting direction."



I wasn't alive and reading back then, so it doesn't impact me. Since I've been reading it, it's been constant.

Cool. It appears we just have different sensibilities on the issue at hand. In my mind there is no substantial difference, but I can appreciate where you are coming from.

Jason California
06-11-2011, 09:25 AM
Stupid question:

Do we know for sure that there's going to be an immediate re-lauch?

I mean, for all we know isn't this cancellation going to be followed by X-Men: Team Logan and X-Men: Team Scott?

We'll see something called Uncanny X-Men again someday, but do we know that it's going to be a month after cancellation?


That is a good point. We did not get a regular Avengers book again until Tony and Steve made up.

BriRedfern
06-11-2011, 10:38 AM
And I am sorry I rub you the wrong way Bill. I can appreciate the feeling.

:lol:

TheKraken
06-11-2011, 11:01 AM
The only thing about all this renumbering nonsense that really bothers me is the cynicism and desperation on display when they know a new #1 will boost sales a little bit for one month, then sales will go back to normal, and they still consider it worth doing. I really don't know why Marvel doesn't switch to the series-of-miniseries concept if they're so desperate for that #1 bump. It would give them 2-4 #1s a year for every title and seem a lot less desperate and confused.

Jason California
06-11-2011, 11:10 AM
The only thing about all this renumbering nonsense that really bothers me is the cynicism and desperation on display when they know a new #1 will boost sales a little bit for one month, then sales will go back to normal, and they still consider it worth doing. I really don't know why Marvel doesn't switch to the series-of-miniseries concept if they're so desperate for that #1 bump. It would give them 2-4 #1s a year for every title and seem a lot less desperate and confused.

This is what I would like the most as well.

Andrew
06-11-2011, 12:35 PM
The only thing about all this renumbering nonsense that really bothers me is the cynicism and desperation on display when they know a new #1 will boost sales a little bit for one month, then sales will go back to normal, and they still consider it worth doing. I really don't know why Marvel doesn't switch to the series-of-miniseries concept if they're so desperate for that #1 bump. It would give them 2-4 #1s a year for every title and seem a lot less desperate and confused.


This is what I would like the most as well.

That's what they've been doing with Millar's Ultimate Avengers over the past year. The numbering restarts every 6 issues. And if you see the sales charts, it hasn't exactly been working if the goal is to increase sales. Check the sales losses between Volume 1 issue 1, Volume 2 issue 1, and Volume 3 issue 1. It's rather glaring that the gimmick doesn't work when used in constant repetition like that.

whazisname
06-11-2011, 01:01 PM
That's what they've been doing with Millar's Ultimate Avengers over the past year. The numbering restarts every 6 issues. And if you see the sales charts, it hasn't exactly been working if the goal is to increase sales. Check the sales losses between Volume 1 issue 1, Volume 2 issue 1, and Volume 3 issue 1. It's rather glaring that the gimmick doesn't work when used in constant repetition like that.

Exactly. Comic book readers show a loyalty in sales to what they perceive to be the "main" title. When Daken took over the main Wolverine title people still perceived that to be the main Wolverine title so sales never really picked up on what was suppose to be the main title, Wolverine: Weapon X. Like Andrew said, the "series of mini-series" approach for Ultimate Avengers is only making people think it isn't as "important".

Matt O'Keefe
06-11-2011, 01:06 PM
Renumbering did work for sales of FF, to be fair.

Jason California
06-11-2011, 01:07 PM
That is probably due in large part to the format the publishers have used in the past. They are used to it being a certain way. If the publishing schedule were to change in a significant way there would be some time for people to adapt and understand it. Perceptions do not change overnight.

dEnny!
06-11-2011, 02:51 PM
The only thing about all this renumbering nonsense that really bothers me is the cynicism and desperation on display when they know a new #1 will boost sales a little bit for one month, then sales will go back to normal, and they still consider it worth doing. I really don't know why Marvel doesn't switch to the series-of-miniseries concept if they're so desperate for that #1 bump. It would give them 2-4 #1s a year for every title and seem a lot less desperate and confused.

The series of mini-series can also go the other way in that readers will drop that book down their to buy list and trade/HC wait for the book because they know the collections will come out regularly to coincide with the next #1 mini-series. Honestly, I think many comic readers enjoy titles that have a sense of history or feel like a going concern.

Personally, as titles of characters I enjoy continually get a new #1 regularly I have gone the trade wait route.

gaspar
06-11-2011, 03:23 PM
Stupid question:

Do we know for sure that there's going to be an immediate re-lauch?

I mean, for all we know isn't this cancellation going to be followed by X-Men: Team Logan and X-Men: Team Scott?

We'll see something called Uncanny X-Men again someday, but do we know that it's going to be a month after cancellation?

Well, that's interesting. I hadn't even thought of that. Just assumed that it would Be Uncanny X-Men #1 and then possibly some sort of "Other X-Men" #1. Definitely will been keeping track of news to see what their plan is.


Cool. It appears we just have different sensibilities on the issue at hand. In my mind there is no substantial difference, but I can appreciate where you are coming from.

Works for me.

But I think we just failed at this whole internet thing. No one is supposed to agree to disagree...we're supposed to argue until it becomes a flame war and someone gets banned! :surrend:

rwsmith
06-11-2011, 03:38 PM
I just hope it leads to distinct teams in different books and new costumes, as these things usually do. I'm a sucker for that stuff. :wolverin:

joeAR
06-11-2011, 03:52 PM
I just hope it leads to distinct teams in different books and new costumes, as these things usually do. I'm a sucker for that stuff. :wolverin:


I get all excited about cotume changes in the X-Books. I'm such a dork.

The Zevad
06-11-2011, 03:56 PM
Renumbering did work for sales of FF, to be fair.

True. But to be fair as well FF is not the Fantastic Four. It's an evolution of the Fantastic Four. Hell FF stands for Future Foundation. And if any of you is not reading FF you should all consider checking it out.

artimoff
06-11-2011, 03:59 PM
They should relaunch all the X-books but without X in their title.

ie. X-Factor becomes Madrox Investigations

Jason California
06-11-2011, 04:01 PM
Works for me.

But I think we just failed at this whole internet thing. No one is supposed to agree to disagree...we're supposed to argue until it becomes a flame war and someone gets banned! :surrend:

We will get through this ;)

atxbomber
06-11-2011, 04:17 PM
True. But to be fair as well FF is not the Fantastic Four. It's an evolution of the Fantastic Four. Hell FF stands for Future Foundation. And if any of you is not reading FF you should all consider checking it out.

Which is what we may end up with UXM. I think it's just as likely we see X-Utopia #1 or even X-Men: Utopia #545 as it is that we'll see Uncanny X-Men Vol. 2 #1.

Matthew Brown
06-11-2011, 04:26 PM
They should relaunch all the X-books but without X in their title.

ie. X-Factor becomes Madrox Investigations

And Badly's School For Special Persons, and In Which Wolverine Snikts Things With His Bros And Purple-haired Girl.

Slewo.O
06-11-2011, 04:29 PM
True. But to be fair as well FF is not the Fantastic Four. It's an evolution of the Fantastic Four. Hell FF stands for Future Foundation. And if any of you is not reading FF you should all consider checking it out.

Not really, typically new books that seem like they're not related to a line or famous name tend to sink in the mainstream market. Part of it is because of the tie back to the Fantastic Four brand.

SpiderPrime
06-11-2011, 06:04 PM
Many people will take a dive with a No. 1, so maybe running a series of arcs and closing them (Vol. 1: 1-6, Vol. 2: 1-6, etc.) might be the only way to go.


If buying #441 of a title is confusing to a new reader, (who would later have to purchase #442 and if he/she was interested in the story and perhaps purchase #440 to catch up), how confusing is it going to be when there are multiple #1s, #2s and #3s around?

Is any thought given to "confusing" new readers that way?

SpiderPrime
06-11-2011, 06:25 PM
They need to remove numbers from covers & only have dates.

Dates were removed from Marvel's indicia circa 1999 because late books meant the book tagged "August" was coming out in October.

David Aspmo
06-11-2011, 06:32 PM
Dates were removed from Marvel's indicia circa 1999 because late books meant the book tagged "August" was coming out in October.
Marvel's indicia still have dates.

Andrew
06-11-2011, 06:35 PM
Exactly. Comic book readers show a loyalty in sales to what they perceive to be the "main" title. When Daken took over the main Wolverine title people still perceived that to be the main Wolverine title so sales never really picked up on what was suppose to be the main title, Wolverine: Weapon X. Like Andrew said, the "series of mini-series" approach for Ultimate Avengers is only making people think it isn't as "important".

That's exactly right. Wolverine: Weapon X had to be cancelled and relaunched as just plain Wolverine for that very reason. The sales just weren't there, as people still considered Dark Wolverine to be the "main book" since it carried on with that numbering.

At the same time, they relaunched Dark Wolverine as Daken: Dark Wolverine and sales have fallen pretty drastically. They've already changed the creative team because of it. The people who advocate constant renumberings don't seem to be acknowledging these recent example of renumbering actually failing. It just doesn't work like it used to.


Renumbering did work for sales of FF, to be fair.

It won't for long, though. Check back in 6 months.

And, sadly, the inclusion of Spider-Man guarantees a few thousand more sales automatically because there are a lot of Spider-Man completists out there.

Slewo.O
06-11-2011, 06:38 PM
The Daken: Dark Wolverine team was changed from two fairly successful writer to a near-complete unknown in comics due to sales? Way moved on to Astonishing X-Men and Liu is focusing on X-23 and her novels. I think you're kinda jumping the gun a bit up there. Otherwise I agree with you.

Andrew
06-11-2011, 06:45 PM
The Daken: Dark Wolverine team was changed from two fairly successful writer to a near-complete unknown in comics due to sales? Way moved on to Astonishing X-Men and Liu is focusing on X-23 and her novels. I think you're kinda jumping the gun a bit up there. Otherwise I agree with you.

Way got what could be considered a promotion (though with Uncanny being cancelled, who knows what'll happen with Astonishing, the fourth-tier X-book), but Liu made it known in a recent interview that she had no intention of leaving and was surprised when Marvel told her that her services would be directed elsewhere.

Okay, so it can't be said for sure that sales are the reason, but look at how drastically Daken's sales have dropped since the relaunch (and it brings me no joy to say this, as it's one of my top books every month). The typical response to drastic sales loss is either relaunching (which is the reason they're in this mess in the first place, so they can't do it again) or changing creative teams. It's a reasonable conclusion to make that they're changing up the team as a response to the sales drop. Even though they're bringing on virtually unknown creators, they might figure that some fans will look at it as something fresh to check out.

Slewo.O
06-11-2011, 06:47 PM
Way got what could be considered a promotion (though with Uncanny being cancelled, who knows what'll happen with Astonishing, the fourth-tier X-book), but Liu made it known in a recent interview that she had no intention of leaving and was surprised when Marvel told her that her services would be directed elsewhere.

Okay, so it can't be said for sure that sales are the reason, but look at how drastically Daken's sales have dropped since the relaunch (and it brings me no joy to say this, as it's one of my top books every month). The typical response to drastic sales loss is either relaunching (which is the reason they're in this mess in the first place, so they can't do it again) or changing creative teams. It's a reasonable conclusion to make that they're changing up the team as a response to the sales drop.

Huh, I had no idea about that with Liu. Damn. It seems strange since it has to be obvious that since Daken is a mid-level character it's not really the creative team's fault sales aren't better there. I mean if the response to the sales problem is that the creative team is a problem, shifting the team doesn't really seem to help when Williams is (as far as I know) an unknown in comics.

SpiderPrime
06-11-2011, 06:50 PM
Marvel's indicia still have dates.

Forgive me, the indicia does, but the little logo box on the top left of the cover does not. Examples...

With Date:

http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/amazing-spider-man/401-4.jpg

Without Date:

http://www.lw-concepts.com/lw/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/cover1.jpg

Andrew
06-11-2011, 06:55 PM
Huh, I had no idea about that with Liu. Damn. It seems strange since it has to be obvious that since Daken is a mid-level character it's not really the creative team's fault sales aren't better there. I mean if the response to the sales problem is that the creative team is a problem, shifting the team doesn't really seem to help when Williams is (as far as I know) an unknown in comics.

Agreed completely.

Here's one of the interviews where they touch on it briefly, and Liu mentions not wanting to leave the book. There's another interview where they go into it in more detail but it's not turning up right now.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=30637

David Aspmo
06-11-2011, 07:11 PM
Forgive me, the indicia does, but the little logo box on the top left of the cover does not. Examples...
Yeah, I don't really need the examples, since I was talking about the indicia. :)

With regard to the cover, though, they could have just as likely removed the date simply because it streamlines the trade dress. If a book is late, they could always just adjust the date to reflect the new time of release, same as they do with the indicia.

Andrew
06-11-2011, 07:25 PM
Yeah, I don't really need the examples, since I was talking about the indicia. :)

With regard to the cover, though, they could have just as likely removed the date simply because it streamlines the trade dress. If a book is late, they could always just adjust the date to reflect the new time of release, same as they do with the indicia.

They probably got rid of the front cover dates because of comics increasingly disappearing from the newsstands. Those front cover dates were always more of a newsstand thing anyway; it told stores how long they were meant to be kept on display. In the direct market it doesn't matter.

David Aspmo
06-11-2011, 07:34 PM
They probably got rid of the front cover dates because of comics increasingly disappearing from the newsstands. Those front cover dates were always more of a newsstand thing anyway; it told stores how long they were meant to be kept on display. In the direct market it doesn't matter.
This is true. It's kind of strange that Marvel's indicia date still keeps with the tradition of being two months later than the release, since it doesn't seem like it should have that function of being a sell-by date.

SpiderPrime
06-11-2011, 07:37 PM
They probably got rid of the front cover dates because of comics increasingly disappearing from the newsstands. Those front cover dates were always more of a newsstand thing anyway; it told stores how long they were meant to be kept on display. In the direct market it doesn't matter.

My original point was that for 40ish years, comics had the dates on them. Then as of 10ish years ago, they do not. I don't see how adding them back to a cover in place of an issue number, high or not, as the original poster had suggested, helps them sales-wise.

TheKraken
06-11-2011, 08:26 PM
The series of mini-series can also go the other way in that readers will drop that book down their to buy list and trade/HC wait for the book because they know the collections will come out regularly to coincide with the next #1 mini-series. Honestly, I think many comic readers enjoy titles that have a sense of history or feel like a going concern.

Personally, as titles of characters I enjoy continually get a new #1 regularly I have gone the trade wait route.

That's probably true, but I'd assume at least some people with that tendency are already using these relaunches to drop the books. I've skipped almost every miniseries not related to Hellboy for years and just waited for the trade. But since Marvel seems so into relaunching over and over already, they might as well do it in a way that makes some kind of sense. I also think that the mythic, never photographed in the wild "new reader" would feel good about picking up an issue and seeing exactly how long the story is and what part they're holding.

HOOKS
06-16-2011, 03:53 AM
Marvel cancels UNCANNY X-MEN because after the SCHISM event there will be "no place for the title"...

...which is why right after they cancel it for reasons that will make total story sense and is definitely completely not a sales decision, they are going to debut UNCANNY X-MEN #1 written by Kieron Gillen, alongside WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN by Jason Aaron.

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=13853420

http://www.comicbookresources.com/assets/images/articles/1308220282.jpg
Alright then.

Cactusakic
06-16-2011, 04:00 AM
I wonder if that advert is in any way representative of the actual teams/sides post-Schism, because if so, it would appear that Emma sides with Wolverine, which would make for a very interesting story regarding my favorite Marvel couple.

Most likely the ad is just an ad and it doesn't bear any relevance to the actual split, but if it does then I'm looking forward to seeing how that shakes out.

Cactusakic
06-16-2011, 04:02 AM
Also, yeah, cancelling Uncanny so that they can debut Uncanny is pretty weak.

valentine
06-16-2011, 04:16 AM
Uncanny... uncanny... uncanny...

Stops sounding like a word after a while.

valentine
06-16-2011, 04:18 AM
Love the Bachalo art, hope he's showing up on one of these.

jason hissong
06-16-2011, 04:18 AM
Predictable.

Pat Loika
06-16-2011, 04:45 AM
The cancelling to re-debut tactic is getting kind of old, but I'm past the point of caring about it. All I want is a good story. If they deliver on that, the number on the cover doesn't matter.

P.

HOOKS
06-16-2011, 04:45 AM
Predictable.

We should start a pool on the fates of the other X-Men books.

Cactusakic
06-16-2011, 04:46 AM
The cancelling to re-debut tactic is getting kind of old, but I'm past the point of caring about it. All I want is a good story. If they deliver on that, the number on the cover doesn't matter.

P.

Agreed 100%.

Cactusakic
06-16-2011, 04:47 AM
We should start a pool on the fates of the other X-Men books.

A dead...pool?

:surrend:

Dan
06-16-2011, 04:56 AM
Just leave X-Factor alone! It's the only x-book I pick up regularly.

Cactusakic
06-16-2011, 05:00 AM
Just leave X-Factor alone! It's the only x-book I pick up regularly.

I think you can rest easy on that one.

That book has carved out its own little (wonderful) niche almost entirely separate from the rest of the X-books.

While it isn't exactly setting the sales charts on fire, its just about doing enough business to keep it going.

Unless the numbers drop, I think Marvel are just going to let David carry on doing his thing in his own little corner of the sandbox.

HOOKS
06-16-2011, 05:22 AM
A dead...pool?

:surrend:

:-|

Cactusakic
06-16-2011, 05:23 AM
:-|

Yeah, I know, sorry.

SidekicksRevenge
06-16-2011, 05:32 AM
The cancelling to re-debut tactic is getting kind of old, but I'm past the point of caring about it. All I want is a good story. If they deliver on that, the number on the cover doesn't matter.

P.

This. It's annoying, but a constant reality in comics for the foreseeable future. I can't sustain any irrational fanboy anger at this anymore...it's all being directed at other constant realities in comics...

Pidge
06-16-2011, 06:57 AM
Art teams announced :

http://marvel.com/news/story/16107/x-men_regenesis

Wolverine & The X-men: Jason Aaron & Chris Bachalo
Uncanny X-men: Kieron Gillen & Greg land & Carlos Pacheco

Pidge
06-16-2011, 06:59 AM
As much as I am against the renumbering, I have to admit this all sounds fantastic and I'm really excited about the direction that Gillen & Aaron are looking to take these books, anything to get the X-franchise back in more of a spotlight.

Evan the Shaggy
06-16-2011, 06:59 AM
Wolverine & The X-men: Jason Aaron & Chris Bachalo


Sign me the fuck up for this one!

anThONY_s
06-16-2011, 07:02 AM
I love Bachalo but has he completed an arc without a fill-in artist recently?

SidekicksRevenge
06-16-2011, 07:14 AM
I'm still not sure what this does for Astonishing or Adjectiveless...do they get to willy-nilly pick which team they feature or do they each become the b-level books, one for each team.

Andrew
06-16-2011, 07:15 AM
Yeah, so, just as weak as could be expected. "No room for Uncanny post-Schism?" It's sad when the companies resort to openly bullshitting like that.

Pidge
06-16-2011, 07:26 AM
Yeah, so, just as weak as could be expected. "No room for Uncanny post-Schism?" It's sad when the companies resort to openly bullshitting like that.

There was an interview where they said that they wanted to renumber Uncanny so that the public wouldn't regard it as the more important title over "Wolverine & the X-Men" which I suppose I can get behind. Like I've said, I wasn't happy about the renumbering but anything to get the X-Men back to the popularity the Avengers are at right now would be a great thing.

SidekicksRevenge
06-16-2011, 07:26 AM
Meh, Uncanny got this far by being a reprint book for a while. I don't see that being any cheaper than the inevitable #600 when that comes out.

Pidge
06-16-2011, 07:29 AM
I'm still not sure what this does for Astonishing or Adjectiveless...do they get to willy-nilly pick which team they feature or do they each become the b-level books, one for each team.

I don't think it will do anything to Adjectiveless, that book seems to have a set team as of issue #250 and it'll probably only grow when Havok, Polaris, and Rachel return so I wouldn't worry about that title or Uncanny X-force for that matter.

As for Astonishing, I wouldn't miss that if it faded away, it sounds like Uncanny is going the route that was intended for Astonishing in the beginning anyway. I've enjoyed Gage's issue so far, but the Monster Island story has been doing nothing for me.

Dan
06-16-2011, 07:32 AM
Adjectiveless is the Gishler book now, with the Vampires, right? Not Legacy, which is now Marvel's only non-restarted book :)

Uncanny
Wolverine &
Astonishing
Legacy
X-men (plain)

Right?

Pidge
06-16-2011, 07:37 AM
Adjectiveless is the Gishler book now, with the Vampires, right? Not Legacy, which is now Marvel's only non-restarted book :)

Uncanny
Wolverine &
Astonishing
Legacy
X-men (plain)

Right?

Yeah, sorry :surrend: I've been refering to that one as adjectiveless for so long that it's hard to break the habit.

Dan
06-16-2011, 07:38 AM
It's not your fault Marvel made this so hard on us!

Pidge
06-16-2011, 07:42 AM
It's not your fault Marvel made this so hard on us!

:lol:

hamgravy
06-16-2011, 07:42 AM
Gillen and Aaron, hell yes.

I haven't read anything X regularly since New X-Men and until Uncanny X-Force.

Hire the right artists and I'm back on.