Rebooted Batgirl #1 Cover Revealed

[Thequeerjock]

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmdgbt3QWD1qbujox.jpg

[The Beast Of Yucca Flats]

A lovely image, if nothing else.

[Impulse]

I'm really hoping for a fakeout here. Barbara as Batgirl is a MASSIVE regression for the character. Sad times.

[SidekicksRevenge]

I'm really hoping for a fakeout here. Barbara as Batgirl is a MASSIVE regression for the character. Sad times.

This.

Also, I'm loving Stephanie as Batgirl in spite of myself.

[Thequeerjock]

I'm not sure if it's to be believed, but a rumor floating around now is that the new Batgirl will be Charlie Radcliffe from Birds of Prey and that Nightwing is Tim Drake. It's worth noting that DC did apparently consider making Charlie into Batgirl before deciding on Steph.

[Erica J Heflin]

This.

Also, I'm loving Stephanie as Batgirl in spite of myself.

Me too.

But the only that I had looking at this was - lavender? wtf?

[Danimal]

The face looks photoshopped into the mask. I wonder if that's a clue it's a fakeout.

[Corrina]

I'm really hoping for a fakeout here. Barbara as Batgirl is a MASSIVE regression for the character. Sad times.

barbara Gordon is the Batgirl the public knows. I wouldn't count on it being a fakeout.

And, yes, I think it's a bad idea as well.

ETA: Batgirl's original costume on the TV show had purple/lavender.

[Ziggy Stardust]

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

Was I upset when Babs was croippled and no longer Batgirl? YES!

Did I love what she became afterwards? TOTALLY! Especially since Gail did since an awesome job of fleshing her out as Oracle.

Is making Babs Batgirl a good move? NO! DC was moving forwards, now they're only looking back and calling it progress. Besides, bringing all these Golden/Silver Age characters in the Dark/Crimson Age of today is disgusting in that characters form a lighter time are getting wedged into this time of beheadings, rape, mutilation, and pointless death and blood.

I repeat: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

[JBK405]

Oh....oh, god...please no.

I love Barbara, I really really do, and I'm glad she's going to get a focus after the reboot, but to just shove the character back two decades and completely remove Stephanie...I might just weep. The Stephanie Batgirl series has been excellently written and great development for her character and I have loved the character of Oracle for even longer, this isn't fair to either of them.

If it turns out this is Charlie and not Barbara that's a small something, it gives me hope that Oracle could still be around, but that still boots out Steph and gets rid of Misfit entirely (She might not have been my absolutely favorite character, but I did enjoy her story and writing).

[FemGeek]

I really don't get why DC do this. Is Steph's book not doing well? What does this mean for BoP? Was there ever a BoP? Yeah, the general public may recognise the redheaded Batgirl, but like they could really give a rat's ass what goes on in comics. Worst idea they've put out yet, if that is indeed Babs.

[Impulse]

Hmm, I wouldn't HATE Charlie as Batgirl - I like the character, after all. I just think it'd be another far-too-soon reset for Steph. Not sure on Tim as Nightwing. I like the Unternet, Nightwing inspired costume he's been sporting recently, but where would it leave Dick, if Bruce is Batman and Tim were to be Nightwing?

[Stressfactor]

Hmm, I wouldn't HATE Charlie as Batgirl - I like the character, after all. I just think it'd be another far-too-soon reset for Steph. Not sure on Tim as Nightwing. I like the Unternet, Nightwing inspired costume he's been sporting recently, but where would it leave Dick, if Bruce is Batman and Tim were to be Nightwing?

[MST3K Crow T. Robot Voice] Dead? [/MST3K Crow T. Robot Voice]


:lol:

[bert]

barbara Gordon is the Batgirl the public knows. I wouldn't count on it being a fakeout.

And, yes, I think it's a bad idea as well.

ETA: Batgirl's original costume on the TV show had purple/lavender.
inside the cape tho?

I could swear it was yellow inside?

yeah. .that's what I thought:

http://www.film.com/wp-content/uploads/2000/11/27889003-27889015-large.jpg

[Shurato2099]

It was.

[Thequeerjock]

I really don't get why DC do this. Is Steph's book not doing well? What does this mean for BoP? Was there ever a BoP?

Bleedingcool reported that there would be a new BOP, but I'm guessing it won't have Oracle? Or maybe a new Oracle?

[Shurato2099]

inside the cape tho?

I could swear it was yellow inside?

yeah. .that's what I thought:

http://www.film.com/wp-content/uploads/2000/11/27889003-27889015-large.jpg

Mmm ... Yvonne Craig ...

[Kevin T Brown]

Eh, I'll go against the "popular opinion" and say I'm looking forward to it. Barbara Gordon is Batgirl to me. I loved her as Oracle, but she fits better as Batgirl, IMO.

[Nick Soapdish]

If it's Babs, I'm not interested at all unless maybe Miller writes exactly the same book, but switching out Babs for Steph. Even then, I'd still be pretty disappointed in the apparent disappearance of Oracle and Steph. (Birds of Prey could still be interesting, especially if it's Charlie, Cass and Steph, but it's not the same without Babs and Dinah.)

Also, it's not Donna Troy in JLI so that may be Dinah (probably removing her from BOP membership). Or it might be somebody else, like Gypsy or someone completely new.

[Shurato2099]

Jurgens is reported to have said that it is a new character in JLI.

[CutterMike]

Again with the chin-cup thingie...?!!?

[Shurato2099]

Chin support is very important to older characters these days.

[Nick Soapdish]

Jurgens is reported to have said that it is a new character in JLI.

I'd just heard that he denied that it was Donna. I'm not sure if I find this reassuring or not. However, I don't particularly like the costume for Dinah so that's a plus at least. I like her early BOP one better. (I must be the only red-blooded American male to dislike her fishnets costume.8-)

[Erica J Heflin]

Lavender and gold in a costume makes me think she should be stalking through manicured gardens or fields of wildflowers.

I do love Yvonne Craig though.

I'm trying really hard to reserve other opinions for the books content...

[AndrewCrossett]

Yep, I think they should reboot Batgirl right back to Yvonne Craig. She should only appear, swinging in on a rope, whenever Batman and Robin are fighting a female supervillain (because heroes never lay hands on a woman), and her fighting should consist only of pushing people lightly with her foot (because punching is unladylike). Then she should toss out a couple of sassy comments and vanish like the wind.

"Holy Xena, Batman. That Batgirl sure has some moves, and she sure looks good making them."

"You see moves and curves, old chum, but all I see is a kitchen somewhere, with a dinner not getting cooked in it."

"Ha ha ha!"

Having Misfit be Batgirl would be interesting, but would that mean her past as Misfit gets retconned out? if they're reverting everyone back to younger versions of themselves, will she be 6 years old?

[Phantom Eagle]

Not being a DC person, I thought it looked kinda cool. Boy, you diehard continuity fanatics are gonna be pissed no matter what they do. I'm chuckling while I shrug.

[Spiffy]

Having Misfit be Batgirl would be interesting, but would that mean her past as Misfit gets retconned out? if they're reverting everyone back to younger versions of themselves, will she be 6 years old?
Except there seems to be a crazy quilt approach going on with ages. Some younger. Some the same age. Would some older be all that surprising? Its like flipping on Smallville and seeing the same names used for different characters with different ages, relationships and backstories behind them.

One thing I hate about that cover artwork is the crazy eyes. If its Misfit, I could "buy" crazy eyes a bit. But Babs?

Also, how's it gonna work with a redheaded Batwoman and a redheaded Batgirl? Presumably if its Babs, then she HAS to be de-aged, since currently she's probably about the same age as Batwoman, but even still... weirdness may ensue. The Purple in the outfit may just be to help tell the two apart!!!

[Shurato2099]

Maybe its Bette Kane ... *ducks*

[Nick Soapdish]

Except there seems to be a crazy quilt approach going on with ages. Some younger. Some the same age. Would some older be all that surprising? Its like flipping on Smallville and seeing the same names used for different characters with different ages, relationships and backstories behind them.

One thing I hate about that cover artwork is the crazy eyes. If its Misfit, I could "buy" crazy eyes a bit. But Babs?


It's like they were photoshopped in. Or maybe the artist used crazy eyes to photoreference them.

I'm not sure if DC is doing itself any favors by letting this all leak out piecemeal. Getting incomplete pictures makes it a lot easier for fans to panic about what's going on.

[Phantom Eagle]

Marvel does this sort of stuff all the time. They de-aged Iceman, from an original X-man to a contemporary of Rogue. Welcome to the 21st Century.

Any chance people could just wait two months and see what happens? No, huh?

[Erica J Heflin]

I enjoy considering the possibilites. There's a lot of interesting things that can be done. I get a kick out of reading what everyone wants to happen and what they'd hate to see happen.

If, if, if...

If they don't completely ditch previous storylines, if Babs is Batgirl, if she'd been Oracle, they could use the whole 'death of Oracle' bit as a reason she didn't want to be a costumed Oracle or whatever. I'm having fun thinking of the different ways the whole relaunch could be handled, even when I come up with scenerios I hate.

[Thequeerjock]

Gail will be writing, and they won't reveal who the new Batgirl is.
http://dcwomenkickingass.tumblr.com/post/6252765797/bpbird

[FemGeek]

Damn, another Gail title I will not be getting. Don't think that's happened before. I wonder will Gail say anything about this; there seems to be mostly a lot of booing around the internet about this from what I've come across, so will DC try and salvage some good buzz for this or let the negativity fester..

[Jae Namkyoung]

... I dunno but I'm done with DC altogether, this is crazy stupid.

[Matthew Brown]

I didn't agree with the direction, but I assumed it was coming. I trust Gail, though, and will be there for issue 1.

[Kyuubi]

Two books by Gail.



Neither is Secret Six. . .

[JBK405]

Okay, even though we've lost Brian Miller (Look, they better have given him something else to write, he had to be my #1 favorite new author. Stephanie was an absolute joy to read under his pen, and the worst review I ever gave to one of his issues was that it wasn't quite as awesome as the other ones) I'll still pick this book up. Apart from having Gail as the author I still do like the character of Batgirl (No matter who's behind the mask) and I'm willing to give it a shot.

Of course, that continued readership is dependent on quality work, but I've yet to be actuvely disappointed by anything of Gail's that I've read.

[Corrina]

I was going to say if Gail's writing, then it's very likely to be Barbara Gordon. OTOH, Gail is Misfit's creator....but, given the BoP cover and Dinah being over there, I suspect this must be Babs.

I like the cover of Batgirl better than the new BoP cover, that's for certain. And Gail will likely knock it out of the park. I suspect it'll be he most high-profile thing she's done as people tend to love Batgirl to pieces, even people who've not read a comic in ages.

I'll just go in a corner now, though, and be bummed about Dinah/Babs/Zinda/Helena and the BoP I adored for a bit.

[The Beast Of Yucca Flats]

I am curious about Firestorm, but am having a hell of a time working interest up for this one.

[AndrewCrossett]

I want to know who Batgirl is before I make any decision on this.

You would think "Gail writing Babs" would be a no-brainer, but I would have a huge problem with Oracle being retconned out of existence (and I thought Gail would too). If it's Misfit finally getting a shot at Batgirldom, and her Misfit past is still intact and a part of her personality, then I would consider it.

[Scott_Stone]

It's Babs, Source now has a note up from Gail about that. http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2011/06/06/gail-simone-on-barbara-gordons-return-to-batgirl/


“Barbara Gordon is pretty much my everything. Because of the Batman TV show, she was the reason I fell in love with superheroes. Because she was a redhead who could kick ass, she is the reason I fell in love with comics. She was always forward-looking as Batgirl, a girl who was smarter than the male characters, who had class and elegance and style, as well as tough-as-nails grit. For a long time, there was simply nothing else like her in comics, and for me and a lot of other readers, her every appearance was joyful and explosive.

For many years, I got to write the character as Oracle, and there is to this day, no character who means more to me. This is classic Barbara as she was originally conceived, with a few big surprises. It’s a bit of a shock, to be sure, but we’re doing everything we can to be respectful to this character’s amazing legacy, while presenting something thrilling that a generation of comics readers will be experiencing for the first time…

…Barbara Gordon leaping, fighting, and swinging over Gotham. Now, when citizens of that city look up, they are going to see BATGIRL.

And that is absolutely thrilling.”

[valentine]

Gail writing Batgirl is an instant classic for me.

Yeah, I love Babs as Oracle too, but I have my fingers crossed that it is her under the cowl. This is honestly the first thing out of this big DC announcement that has me genuinely excited and not just mildly intrigued.

[AndrewCrossett]

If it's Barbara "somehow got her legs working again" Gordon, I will listen with an open mind to the reasons for this. If it's Barbara "always been Batgirl, never been Oracle" Gordon, then I will put it out of my mind and never speak of it again.

[Corrina]

Aha! I found a way to get excited. So if it's Barbara Gordon and Gail's the writer, can we assume there's a lot of Jim Gordon in the book? (Also looking for more Jim in Scott Snyder's book...)

Hey, I take my crumbs of excitement where I can gets them.

[Kevin T Brown]

And drawn by Ardian Syaf and Vicente Cifuentes as well! Definitely an all around great creative team for this book.

[valentine]

:rock:

[Shurato2099]

Is Gail the ongoing writer on this or is she just on for the first issue?

[AndrewCrossett]

This is classic Barbara as she was originally conceived,

So Oracle has been erased from continuity, then.

That makes my decision a whole lot easier.

[FemGeek]

No explaination why though. Why not Steph? Why no more Oracle? Just seemed like a Babs-is-my-favourite-Batgirl-so-there type response.

[Erica J Heflin]

Now more of Jim is something I can get behind. Good call!

[Personamanx]

Yeah, I'm happy for you Gail. But I'm out.

This is regression. I'm anti-regression.

[Patrick Gerard]

Yeah, I'm happy for you Gail. But I'm out.

This is regression. I'm anti-regression.

I'm kinda the opposite. I don't think characters should age or play musical chairs with identities except as a one off "Superman dresses up as Batman"-kinda thing.

But... uh... Barbara is debuting after Damian?

*sigh*

Why couldn't they have had the chops for a full reboot?

[Shurato2099]

This whole relaunch is regression in one form or another. Making the JLA younger should have been the first clue for everybody. JLA sets the tone for the new run.

That being said, I can get behind Babs as Batgirl because that's where I first encountered her and she had some really good stories back in the day. I'd love to see what Gail could do with villains like the Velvet Tiger, who had Barbara ready to quit the capes 'n cowls game at one point.

The BoP lineup makes me wonder what's become of Zinda, Huntress and Hawk & Dove though ...

[Impulse]

Well, I'm out. I have no interest in Barbara as Batgirl. She's going to seem particularly irrelevant and regressed next to red-headed BatWOMAN, Kate Kane. This reboot is driving me entirely away from DC.

[Kevin T Brown]

As I said elsewhere:

People say they want something new, something different, a new take on the characters, etc..... but when it happens, they complain.

Welcome to comics.

[AndrewCrossett]

My initial reaction was that this was a betrayal of all the people who are Oracle fans in particular... but "betrayal" implies that DC felt they owed us anything in the first place.

They're obviously taking the Play-Doh attitude toward their characters. Make a character out of Play-Doh, play with it for awhile, then pull it apart and throw it back in the bucket to make a new character the next time you play.

That works for them, I guess, but it doesn't work for me.

I guess I'm going to leave DC to all those hordes of new young readers who are apparently going to be super impressed by all of this.

[Dreg]

DC chose a weird time to be new-reader friendly. Right after bringing back all these silver age characters and introducing a crapload of new continuity fixes, changes, and retcons. And all that recent stuff, they want to keep.

[Matthew Brown]

The response to this is really baffling. No matter the corporate intervention, and rebooting of histories, it's still going to be one of our favorite writers on the character she's idolized all her life.

[Hybrid2]

Gail will be writing, and they won't reveal who the new Batgirl is.
http://dcwomenkickingass.tumblr.com/post/6252765797/bpbird

Again?
Do they enjoy upseting fans?
Last time they where just trying to trick Cass's fans to buy the book.
I did'nt fall for it.

I might have actualy given it a try if they woulde have said it was steph from the start.
This is just...no.

Sorry Gail.
I might even drop everything now. even Firestorm.

[Ziggy Stardust]

As I said elsewhere:

People say they want something new, something different, a new take on the characters, etc..... but when it happens, they complain.

Welcome to comics.

Regressing back is not new, though.

[Personamanx]

The response to this is really baffling. No matter the corporate intervention, and rebooting of histories, it's still going to be one of our favorite writers on the character she's idolized all her life.

And you know what? I am actually happy for her. I know she will write an enjoyable book that she's been wanting to writes probably forever. A book that I will not be reading. I wish her well but I'm not going to pick up this book. At least not at the moment. Future news could change that.

[AndrewCrossett]

I wonder if Gail is re-upping her exclusive with DC?

I'd hoped she might find the time to do a miniseries for Buffy season 9, but that hope is quickly fading. Oh well. :sad:

[The Xenos]

Ooooooh. Boy. Even with Gail on board... I.. just.. I just don't know how I feel about this. Whoo. Even if my head wasn't a potato from allergies this morning... This news would have it swimming. I.. I just don't know. Right now, I hate this idea. Always have every time the rumor came up. Yet. I need to hear more about the HOW. There's gonna be a huuuuuge reason for this and it better be good.


Also, I'm loving Stephanie as Batgirl in spite of myself. I easn't too happy with Steph taking the cowl. I didn't hate it either. It was.. meh. When I had to cut back on even my beloved Bat books, it got chopped along with Red Robin which I enjoyed even more.

[Hugin]

As I said elsewhere:

People say they want something new, something different, a new take on the characters, etc..... but when it happens, they complain.

Welcome to comics.This is Babs as she was written 30 years ago. How is that new? I'll pick it up, along with Firestorm, because of the author, but I don't like the loss of Oracle and Steph.

[Corrina]

We did like something new. BoP got relaunched. Steph Brown was Batgirl. We liked Cass. It seems most of the stuff we're getting is the older stuff....

[Ziggy Stardust]

We did like something new. BoP got relaunched. Steph Brown was Batgirl. We liked Cass. It seems most of the stuff we're getting is the older stuff....

DING! DING! DING!!!!!!

This is NOT NEW. I can get out some moldy cheese, scrape the mold off and repackage it, but I certainly wouldn't call it new.

[JBK405]

Anyway, now that we know who is going to be under the mask, have we heard anything about who was under the mask? Has there been an update on Stephanie Brown? Is she gonna be Spoiler again? Batgirl-girl, the new sidekick? What about Misfit? Even if the rumor that she was going to be Batgirl is now untrue does that mean she will be somehow involved in the story, perhaps as another sidekick? They've been connected to the Bat-name for years now and I'm hoping they won't just be forgotten.

[Spiffy]

Anyway, now that we know who is going to be under the mask, have we heard anything about who was under the mask? Has there been an update on Stephanie Brown? Is she gonna be Spoiler again? Batgirl-girl, the new sidekick? What about Misfit? Even if the rumor that she was going to be Batgirl is now untrue does that mean she will be somehow involved in the story, perhaps as another sidekick? They've been connected to the Bat-name for years now and I'm hoping they won't just be forgotten.
You mean like "Blackbat"? Er... say... have we even heard if "Blackbat" is still around post-"Don't Call it a Reboot"?

It would be just like DC to drag Cass out briefly in this new identity just to shut people up, then rejigger the whole universe and send her to oblivion.

[Stressfactor]

Aha! I found a way to get excited. So if it's Barbara Gordon and Gail's the writer, can we assume there's a lot of Jim Gordon in the book? (Also looking for more Jim in Scott Snyder's book...)

Hey, I take my crumbs of excitement where I can gets them.

And consider this Corrina -- if Babs has been de-aged a bit (as it looks like she has) then that means Gordon has probably also been de-aged!! WINNING!!!

[DungeonMasterJim]

Costume looks pretty awesome in that cover shot.

[JBK405]

Yes, exactly Blackbat...oy, now I'm sad again. Speaking of, have we heard anything about her?

[Personamanx]

Yes, exactly Blackbat...oy, now I'm sad again. Speaking of, have we heard anything about her?

Of course we haven't.

[Stressfactor]

It may be regression, true BUT Corrina and Kevin are right in that most younger generations know Babs more as Batgirl than they do as Oracle.

It's not JUST the old Batman TV show...

Batman the Animated Series had Barbara as Batgirl.

The Batman had Barbara as Batgirl (with one small cameo appearance of her as Oracle set in the future).

I've not seen very many episodes of Batman: The Brave and the Bold so I don't know if Batgirl appeared there and if she was Barbara so someone else will have to speak to that.

Even Batman Beyond while it didn't have Barbara as Batgirl it didn't have her become Oracle either in the future... instead she became the new Commissioner Gordon.

Long term comic book fans are really the only ones who know about Oracle.... well, and the handful of people maybe who watched the Birds of Prey TV series since that was the only place where Oracle has really been featured in wider media.

[michealdark]

Batgirl: Gail is in fact writing? While I can't say I'm pleased, I do enjoy Babsgirl even if I think Oracle is the stronger character, and I like how Gail writes Babs, so this will be on my list, but not without some pain.

Besides that, I think you could bring Wendy back as Oracle or an Oracle-like character.

[Patrick Gerard]

I think they can make Batgirl the world's greatest information broker and a master of escrima and have the best of all worlds, personally. Maybe even have her with a childhood where she overcame a paralyzing condition for the added oomph.

[Kingsmythe]

So..... they decide they need the "most iconic" Batgirl, and undo 20 years + of character development on Barbara, and yet we get the most recent (and IMHO the worst) of the five Robins? Wonder if has anything to do with Damian being one of Morrison's pets....

[Spiffy]

Yes, exactly Blackbat...oy, now I'm sad again. Speaking of, have we heard anything about her?
Here was my half joking suggestion from another thread, but the more I think about it the more I wish they'd gone this way:


"Birds of Prey", starring Black Canary, Blackbat, and Spoiler.

[michealdark]

I like the idea of having a handicapable hero around because I think that's inspiring. But a good story about a hero overcoming an injury is a inspirational as well. And with the news coming out this week about the effectiveness of stem cell therapy (a paralyzed man regaining feeling in his legs, though he isn't able to walk yet, and a man being "functionally cured" of HIV-in other words the virus has stopped replicating in his body...completely...) you now have an actual real world treatment that has the potential to become a viable therapy for the general public that can explain how she was healed. And it slides in a subtle political commentary without being too aggressive about it. (you wouldn't have to make reference to it beyond the first issue or two to explain what happened and how she improved)

[KirbyKrackle]

Eh. Grant Morrison wanted to get babs out of that wheelchair for years anyway. I'll probably check this out.

[The Xenos]

So..... they decide they need the "most iconic" Batgirl, and undo 20 years + of character development on Barbara, and yet we get the most recent (and IMHO the worst) of the five Robins? Wonder if has anything to do with Damian being one of Morrison's pets....
Eh. Grant Morrison wanted to get babs out of that wheelchair for years anyway. I'll probably check this out. As much as I like Grant, and even Damian has grown on me greatly, I don't like the idea with Babs. Hell, as much as I like Gail and trust her with the character I still don't like the idea.

I'm.. I'm pretty shocked. I've heard this rumor for years. I saw it done on that God awful Birds of Prey TV show where Dina Meyer as Oracle was the only good thing in it.

Now DC finally did it. They finally really did it. You maniacs! You blew it up! Ah, damn you! God damn you all to hell!

Maybe I'll accept it, accept every ape from Chimpan-A to Chimpanzee. Or maybe those damn dirty apes can take my old Oracle comics from my cold dead hands.

[Corrina]

And consider this Corrina -- if Babs has been de-aged a bit (as it looks like she has) then that means Gordon has probably also been de-aged!! WINNING!!!

Good point. :)

Hell, I'm old. Gordon's within spitting distance of an age-appropriate crush right now. (I like to think he's somewhere 48-50ish)

[Stressfactor]

Okay, here's something I don't fully understand....

I'm not being mean or malicious or anything I just feel like maybe there's a double standard going on and I want to understand it better....

People are upset that Babs will stop being Oracle and will be Batgirl again. They feel like this is regression, that this is losing character development and that this is actually removing diversity because it is removing a physically challenged role model from the DCU.

AND YET...

I do not recall the uncrippling of John Stewart having the same kinds of arguments.

Let's face it, Stewart was put back in the Corps because he was, at that time, recognizable to the general public as THE Green Lantern thanks to the Justice League Animated Series.

But Stewart had, in the comics, moved on from the Corps long before then.

And he had been shown as being a successful architect and well regarded in the superhero community.

And yet, when his ability to walk was restored everyone cheered it.

Not a single person said, "You know what? They could have left him in the chair AND still made him a GL. He could have used the ring to fly and move or ring up some kind of exo-skeleton that would have allowed him to walk and fight and then, when he wasn't using the ring, he would have still been using the wheelchair."

But I didn't see ANYONE saying that.

NO ONE.

Maybe I'm wrong and someone did but I didn't see it.


So why was it okay for Stewart to be 'regressed' back into the Corps but Babs has people up in arms?

Why couldn't a wheelchair-bound Stewart have been given a new lease on life as a new kind of hero?

Why is what's good for the gander seemingly ruinous for the goose?

Inquiring minds want to know!

[The Xenos]

Well.. shit.. I'm on the verge of tears reading this post by The Nerdy Bird at Newsarama. I almost feel ashamed at my complaining about what the character of Oracle means to me. Who the hell am I to talk? It's nothing compared to someone with actual physical disability reading her stories and being inspired by the story of her life.

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/oracle-is-stronger-than-batgirl-110606.html

[AndrewCrossett]

Has it been stated anywhere that Barbara used to be Oracle in this new continuity?

Having Oracle cured of her paralysis is one thing. Writing her straight out of history is another. The former I would accept, if it was done believably and sensitively. The latter gets nothing from me but disgust.

[t.c.johnson]

Okay, here's something I don't fully understand....

I'm not being mean or malicious or anything I just feel like maybe there's a double standard going on and I want to understand it better....

People are upset that Babs will stop being Oracle and will be Batgirl again. They feel like this is regression, that this is losing character development and that this is actually removing diversity because it is removing a physically challenged role model from the DCU.

AND YET...

I do not recall the uncrippling of John Stewart having the same kinds of arguments.

Let's face it, Stewart was put back in the Corps because he was, at that time, recognizable to the general public as THE Green Lantern thanks to the Justice League Animated Series.

But Stewart had, in the comics, moved on from the Corps long before then.

And he had been shown as being a successful architect and well regarded in the superhero community.

And yet, when his ability to walk was restored everyone cheered it.

Not a single person said, "You know what? They could have left him in the chair AND still made him a GL. He could have used the ring to fly and move or ring up some kind of exo-skeleton that would have allowed him to walk and fight and then, when he wasn't using the ring, he would have still been using the wheelchair."

But I didn't see ANYONE saying that.

NO ONE.

Maybe I'm wrong and someone did but I didn't see it.


So why was it okay for Stewart to be 'regressed' back into the Corps but Babs has people up in arms?

Why couldn't a wheelchair-bound Stewart have been given a new lease on life as a new kind of hero?

Why is what's good for the gander seemingly ruinous for the goose?

Inquiring minds want to know!

But during that time John Stewart did not become an established super-hero.

If they crippled Barbara Gordon and then didn't do much with her until now, then people would not mind this as much.

BUt they have done a lot with Barbara Gordon since then...a LOT and now it looks like they are completely undoing it.

WIth John Stewart, they didn't undo anything. He didn't establish himself as a hero during that time, even though he had a good life.

THere is also the message that DC is sending that people with disabilities can't really be heroic characters.

[Thequeerjock]

So..... they decide they need the "most iconic" Batgirl, and undo 20 years + of character development on Barbara, and yet we get the most recent (and IMHO the worst) of the five Robins? Wonder if has anything to do with Damian being one of Morrison's pets....

The Robins can more or less be interchangable at least visually, while I think they wanted a redheaded Batgirl. Plus, the Robin on TV right now is a loud-mouthed obnoxious little boy. Like Damian!

[Kyuubi]

My first post had nothing to do with my feelings towards Batgirl. As a male with a fully functioning body, I'll never be able to be as upset as others who were so emotionally connected to the character of Oracle. I was on the fence about this until I read Gail's blurb about writing this book. In all honestly, I'm okay with this decision and look forward to the book.

[Pex]

Hmm...what if Barbara isn't healed? Maybe her costume contains some sort of thin technological bodysuit that allows her to use her legs again, when she goes out to fight crime? Something like (for those who follow Marvel) Alpha Flight's Guardian suit, or more appropriately, Wildstreak (from Fantastic Four Annual #26)? Maybe she is still Oracle as well as Batgirl...

[The Xenos]

Hmm...what if Barbara isn't healed? Maybe her costume contains some sort of thin technological bodysuit that allows her to use her legs again, when she goes out to fight crime? Something like (for those who follow Marvel) Alpha Flight's Guardian suit, or more appropriately, Wildstreak (from Fantastic Four Annual #26)? Maybe she is still Oracle as well as Batgirl... Yeah. That's the ONE saving grace I can hope for. Outside of the exo-suit costume she's still disabled.

Of course DC is only letting this shit leak out little by little. Would be nice to Oracle fans, and DC's fans of disability their new diverse universe supposedly appeals to, if DC would actually tell us what is going on with one of their big iconic characters!

[Kyuubi]

I'm only going to comment about official information.



. . .except for those posts in the BoP thread. (I'm already a damned hypocrite. . .)

[Spiffy]

Hmm...what if Barbara isn't healed? Maybe her costume contains some sort of thin technological bodysuit that allows her to use her legs again, when she goes out to fight crime? Something like (for those who follow Marvel) Alpha Flight's Guardian suit, or more appropriately, Wildstreak (from Fantastic Four Annual #26)? Maybe she is still Oracle as well as Batgirl...
If the whole idea is "nobody around her suspects its her because she's disabled", didn't DC try to do that with Tim Drake for about... five minutes? Until they forgot about it.

[Arion]

I'm really hoping for a fakeout here. Barbara as Batgirl is a MASSIVE regression for the character. Sad times.

True .

[Damo]

Quite simply, if this isn't a psyche-out, then I will no longer be purchasing any books by Gail Simone. I'll be too disappointed in her.

http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab132/D1Puck1T/simoneonbatgirl.jpg?t=1307398203

[AthenAltena]

Quite simply, if this isn't a psyche-out, then I will no longer be purchasing any books by Gail Simone. I'll be too disappointed in her.

http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab132/D1Puck1T/simoneonbatgirl.jpg?t=1307398203

I'm not sure blaming her for this is the right course of action, considering that by all appearance this is an editorial decision. She already said that her being taken off BOP wasn't her decision either.

[Kyuubi]

I highly doubt this was her decision to make.

[Arion]

Barbara back in spandex is a bad idea.

[Spiffy]

I'm really hoping for a fakeout here. Barbara as Batgirl is a MASSIVE regression for the character. Sad times.
See, I can wane sarcastic about a lot of this (especially the so-far kind of lame looking new Birds), but that said, since its Gail writing this that holds a lot of credit for me.

Yes, Babs' status as a figurehead for disabled folks is gone. But it was going to happen ANYWAY (if it hadn't gone to Gail, I'm convinced it still would have happened with someone else doing the book), and I think since it was, at least she's being written by someone who loves the character to distraction (I sense maybe even more than she did Wonder Woman).

One thing is... once they pull the trigger on this, the lamest possible thing will be to RE-Injure Babs. As bad as it is to lose Oracle, it would be far lamer and infinitely more exploitative for it to be shown as her "fate" and it all happening again. Chalk this one up, and hope that some other character--who's conceived as disabled from word one and not simply "crippled" in some lame ass storyline just to exploit--is maybe brought in to take a similar role. A way to avoid an exact repeat of Oracle's storyline, might be the "powered suit" idea (not for Babs, who's Batgirl outfit wouldn't suit it), but for some new disabled hero who can take the banner up and basically be written as a highly competent 'driver' for a mechanical device. I won't say "problem solved", because people will still be insulted no matter what, but at least it will keep some diversity going. Plus, then the most brand-able Batgirl, the one Gail loved since girlhood, can go forward less burdened by having to be the "symbol", at the expense of telling the same stories over and over again.

[Spiffy]

Quite simply, if this isn't a psyche-out, then I will no longer be purchasing any books by Gail Simone. I'll be too disappointed in her.

http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab132/D1Puck1T/simoneonbatgirl.jpg?t=1307398203
Oh good lord.

Think about this. You are Gail Simone. You learn that its already inevitable that Oracle is going bye bye, and either YOU take over the post-reboot version with at least a LITTLE control, or you bitch and moan about it, maybe losing your job in the process, and it goes to someone who doesn't care.

If I was Gail I'd have taken it too. With very few regrets. (and I hope if this is a true "reboot" and not simply a temporary continuity, without some intention to "fold" to public pressure and re-injure Babs just as a knee-jerk reaction to pressure, because the ONLY thing worse than taking the disabled hero away is to exploit it happening all over again)

[KirbyKrackle]

I wouldn't be suprise if dc adapts a "this all going to be a earth one and earth two deal" to get people to chill.

[The Xenos]

Quite simply, if this isn't a psyche-out, then I will no longer be purchasing any books by Gail Simone. I'll be too disappointed in her.

http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab132/D1Puck1T/simoneonbatgirl.jpg?t=1307398203 For all we know she's been fighting against it, but it's happening anyway. If it's happening anyway, I want no one other than Gail to take on the character.

Meanwhile, my only hope is they have a DAMN GOOD REASON why Babs is walking. You know what? Even if it's an exo-suit and she's still in a chair outside the costume.. maybe the only way they could salvage this.. That's still a tough sell to me. Even with Gail.

Again. I just don't know how to feel about this. I am very upset it was decided that she needs to be Babs again. Hell, I would have read Steph in the costume with Oracle behind her over this and I was never thrilled with those books.

This is simply disgusting. Though Gail being involved certainly eases the very cruel blow and sweetens this bitter bitter choice. I can't imagine this is something even she's happy with, just something she has to deal with along with the rest of us.

[AndrewCrossett]

Well, Gail was right... putting Babs back in spandex is insane.

That said, she's probably the only writer I'd trust to salvage something out of such an insane idea.

THAT said, I'm probably still not gonna read the book, especially if Oracle is erased.

[Spiffy]

I dunno. In a way maybe the cleaner the "break" the better. I like the "disabled hero using an exoskeleton" idea. Just not for Babs. Create a whole new hero, FROM SCRATCH, using that. And don't take the cheap out of crippling an existing hero. Make one from the ground up, maybe a Scientist building his or her own device, and it makes the point the BEST and IMO the most upstanding way.

[ConnorHawke]

I'm in the minority here because I never really gave a damn about Oracle or Birds of Prey but am quite excited about this. It will definitely be one of the books I pick up.

[Darque_Angel]

I don't think it was Gail's idea to change Bab's from Oracle. I think it was editorially mandated and she is doing the best she can to protect and grow the character. If this is the way its going to be then I don't want anyone but Gail writing the book. I trust her to take care of Bab's and give us a good story with this version of her.

[Spiffy]

I don't think it was Gail's idea to change Bab's from Oracle. I think it was editorially mandated and she is doing the best she can to protect and grow the character. If this is the way its going to be then I don't want anyone but Gail writing the book. I trust her to take care of Bab's and give us a good story with this version of her.
Exactly. I don't always defend everything Gail does or has written (I love certain parts of her WW--Ends of the Earth being one of my favorite WW stories ever, for example, but have outright said that Phil Hester, despite JMS' drag effect, did WW better than Gail). But I DO know for sure that she loves Barbara Gordon, and its far better to have a writer who loves a character writing her than one who doesn't.

When they did the "Who Is Batgirl" business last year? I said at the time I hoped it would be Babs. It wouldn't have involved a lame full-universe reboot. And Gail at that very time was possibly still saying it was insane to put Babs back in Spandex, but to my mind that happening to Babs WAS inevitable based on watching how DC operates these days. So I figured "just pull the trigger already".

I wound up liking StephBatgirl FAR more than I'd figured I would (I kind of was indifferent to her as Spoiler). And I know the un-Oralification of Babs will be a sore spot for a long time. But okay, if it had to happen don't do it half-assed. Go whole hog. And I think Gail can do that, since she fell in love with the character who was exuberant, and usually smarter than Robin, and frequently as smart as Batman.

And don't look back. If Babs if re-Oracled at the end of this? I'm sorry folks, but that would make it even worse. Get a new standard bearer, as bad as it hurts to lose this one.

[The Xenos]

You know what? It's not like Oracle isn't in mainstream pop culture's mind! She's a character throughout the best selling Batman video game Arkham Asylum and the much talking about forthcoming sequel.

Seriously, these marketing idiots at Warner, and yes I am totally speculating here that it was them who chose to do this.. ARGH! They make me want to punch something, preferably their face. Screw characters. We want trademarks and lunch boxes before actual writing characters and story! BAH!

[KirbyKrackle]

Seriously, these marketing idiots at Warner, and yes I am totally speculating here that it was them who chose to do this.. ARGH! They make me want to punch something, preferably their face. Screw characters. We want trademarks and lunch boxes before actual writing characters and story! BAH!

It's like they only care about money.

[Damo]

I'm not sure blaming her for this is the right course of action, considering that by all appearance this is an editorial decision. She already said that her being taken off BOP wasn't her decision either.

I certainly do not blame her for the idea.

Agreeing to write the book, however, and giving the concept her stamp of approval? Well, I've already stated my reaction to that.


Well, Gail was right... putting Babs back in spandex is insane.

That said, she's probably the only writer I'd trust to salvage something out of such an insane idea.


I do not see it as a good thing that Gail is lending this decision more credibility. She probably is one of the few writers that could manage to do anything good at all with this. I would prefer that nothing good at all was done with this. It's going to be a stinker, spraying some sweet perfume on it to try and conceal just how bad it stinks only makes it easier to ignore just how bad this is.

[ConnorHawke]

I do not see it as a good thing that Gail is lending this decision more credibility. She probably is one of the few writers that could manage to do anything good at all with this. I would prefer that nothing good at all was done with this. It's going to be a stinker, spraying some sweet perfume on it to try and conceal just how bad it stinks only makes it easier to ignore just how bad this is.

I really don't get this attitude. People are talking as though Babs as Batgirl stories are inherently awful.

Is it really so hard to imagine that a talented writer who understands the character can produce something greater than a polished turd?

This book seems to have everything going for it. Not quite sure why people are predicting the worst.

[Gail Simone]

Yeah.

Adam Hughes, doing covers for Batgirl.

I guess I'm okay with that. :)

I hope they do some of the variant cover sketches he had drawn, they were AMAZING.

[Erica J Heflin]

I am just having random flashbacks to MANTIS now. Huh.

[Kyuubi]

Yeah.

Adam Hughes, doing covers for Batgirl.

I guess I'm okay with that. :)

I hope they do some of the variant cover sketches he had drawn, they were AMAZING.


Are you in contact with him? If so, could you ask him about All-Star Wonder Woman?

[BClayMoore]

That cover is beautiful.

That's all I know.

-BCM

[Stressfactor]

I am just having random flashbacks to MANTIS now. Huh.

That actually wasn't a bad TV series... but it was on Fox if I remember correctly and we all know how Fox likes to kill Sci-Fi series'.

But I think Boom! Studios is also ahead of DC on this. I haven't been reading much of their output lately but I seem to recall them announcing a series where the hero is in a wheelchair. When he's heroed out (with a suit IIRC) then he can walk but when he's in his ordinary life he has to use a wheelchair.

Also, not as extreme but I remember the TV series Streethawk (yes, I actually watched it) featured a hero who, while not in a wheelchair, had been in a motorcycle accident which had ruined one of his legs -- leaving him with a severe limp and he had to walk with a cane. The government agency which gave him the suped up motorcycle also created a suit for him which compensated for his bad leg.

IRL there is a monster truck called Airborne Ranger which is driven by a guy who used to be in a wheelchair. Googling him now it appears he has been able to get back on his feet and can walk with the aid of canes and leg braces but at the time I saw him he was still in a wheelchair and had equipped the truck so he could drive it without the use of his legs.

[Corrina]

You know, it's not like Gail has never said something that she wishes she never said. :)

[Adam Stabelli]

Only good things can come out of Gail writing Batgirl. So pumped for this.

[Cassandra]

The BoP lineup makes me wonder what's become of Zinda, Huntress and Hawk & Dove though ...
Agreed. If Black Canary is the only original bird in the new Birds of Prey how the hell are they still calling it 'Birds of Prey?' I thought the title was an amusing play on the fact that most of the ladies on the team had bird-like names. Now you have Poison Ivy, Katana and some other chick. Sounds to me like they're trying to sell this new book based on the name alone.


Okay, here's something I don't fully understand....
I'm not being mean or malicious or anything I just feel like maybe there's a double standard going on and I want to understand it better....

People are upset that Babs will stop being Oracle and will be Batgirl again. They feel like this is regression, that this is losing character development and that this is actually removing diversity because it is removing a physically challenged role model from the DCU.
AND YET...
I do not recall the uncrippling of John Stewart having the same kinds of arguments.

You're working under the assumption that everyone here reads JLA-related books. I personally don't.

If I could pick anyone to write this it would be Gail.

[Erica J Heflin]

That actually wasn't a bad TV series... but it was on Fox if I remember correctly and we all know how Fox likes to kill Sci-Fi series'.

But I think Boom! Studios is also ahead of DC on this. I haven't been reading much of their output lately but I seem to recall them announcing a series where the hero is in a wheelchair. When he's heroed out (with a suit IIRC) then he can walk but when he's in his ordinary life he has to use a wheelchair.

Also, not as extreme but I remember the TV series Streethawk (yes, I actually watched it) featured a hero who, while not in a wheelchair, had been in a motorcycle accident which had ruined one of his legs -- leaving him with a severe limp and he had to walk with a cane. The government agency which gave him the suped up motorcycle also created a suit for him which compensated for his bad leg.

IRL there is a monster truck called Airborne Ranger which is driven by a guy who used to be in a wheelchair. Googling him now it appears he has been able to get back on his feet and can walk with the aid of canes and leg braces but at the time I saw him he was still in a wheelchair and had equipped the truck so he could drive it without the use of his legs.

I enjoyed MANTIS. I believe it was a part of the attempt to have a sci-fi series lead into X-Files, and one of the more entertaining ones. I have never seen nor do I recall hearing about Streethawk, though... Was it any good?

[Pex]

But I think Boom! Studios is also ahead of DC on this. I haven't been reading much of their output lately but I seem to recall them announcing a series where the hero is in a wheelchair. When he's heroed out (with a suit IIRC) then he can walk but when he's in his ordinary life he has to use a wheelchair.

There's also the FCBD book Silver Scorpion, the Syrian Muslim Handicapped Hero. Although he uses a weird tank-like bottom half when in combat instead of legs, but he's completely unable to walk at all from what I remember.

[BClayMoore]

Don't forget Box!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5KspDlQ-rlY/S50LRTYfALI/AAAAAAAACSI/TnPkHg8QBvU/s400/af22-6.jpg

-BCM

[Stressfactor]

I enjoyed MANTIS. I believe it was a part of the attempt to have a sci-fi series lead into X-Files, and one of the more entertaining ones. I have never seen nor do I recall hearing about Streethawk, though... Was it any good?

Streethawk good? Honestly.... I'm not sure.

It came out in 1985 and it was right in the midst of all those shows about super-powerful vehicles -- Knight Rider, Airwolf, etc.

I liked it but then again I was about 12 and I also liked Knight Rider and the Dukes of Hazzard. My tastes were pretty poor.

The series only lasted about one season and it's never been out on VHS or DVD to the best of my knowledge. I can't even find episodes on YouTube! I went looking a while back out of curiosity just to see what the show would look like to me today and all I could find was one person who had put up the pilot on YouTube but it was really crappy sourced from an old, obviously worn, VHS tape taped off the TV. It was so difficult to see what was going on I gave up trying to watch it.

I'm going to say, though, that all things considered it was probably crap.

But there were some good ideas in there -- the protagonist had been a motorcycle cop who, as I said, was injured in the line of duty, thereby losing the ability to be a regular beat cop. He became an analyst or something with the police department but he still wanted to be out there DOING instead of riding a desk.

And then, once he got to be the Streethawk no one ever thought it could be him because he's disabled so it was the perfect cover.

I found the theme on YouTube, though... For those of a certain age it will probably bring back memories...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCItnKrXvMM

[OMAR]

I don't think it was Gail's idea to change Bab's from Oracle. I think it was editorially mandated and she is doing the best she can to protect and grow the character.

That would be a completely insane reason for Gail to accept the assignment. You could say, "they'd hire someone else to do it" but in the act of lending her name to the title, Gail brings a tremendous amount of goodwill from thousands of readers - which in the first few, crucial months, may do a great deal to help assure that DC sticks with this new status quo.

Weird timing for me - last night, I read the first two BOP tpbs that Gail had written. As a monthly reader, I left after Chuck Dixon left. But I'm really enjoying her run, and I have all the Secret Six tps to read yet.

[CutterMike]

Hmmm... Well, I certainly would have been happier with Steph/Batgirl and Babs/Oracle but this could be okay -- *IF* this is a full reboot and Babs as Oracle never existed, or if DC admits that this is an Earth-1/Earth-2 situation. I would hate the "never having been Oracle" thing, as I loved the character and the dynamic that she had with the Birds and the Bats.

BUT -- I agree with what Gail said in 2004, IN THE CONTEXT of 2004; giving Barbara Thanagarian prosthetics or Brainiac-tech regeneration or any other hand-waving solution to her problem (...you know... like they did for Bruce...) would just be stupidly negating the message that Babs/Oracle was delivering about ways of being a hero that don't necessarily involve giving someone a punch in the chops.

OTOH, if this is a NEW Barbara Gordon and a NEW Batgirl then -- to me, at least -- it doesn't seem as much a negation of what that other, different, "Earth-n" character was... Sort of like how Silver Age Katar Hol kept the Golden Age Carter Hall/archaeologist and Hawkman identities while still being a different person.

As with Hawkman, though, I feel that it has to be a clean break, with no echoes of Oracle cluttering up the landscape or we'll end up with what we ended up with in the later years of the Hawkman example -- an uncomfortable, sometimes barely comprehensible mishmash that does justice to none of the characters.

I should note, here, that I am NOT a writer -- maybe Gail could find a way to make a wheelchair-bound Oracle becoming rooftop-swinging Batgirl work without major suckage -- but *I* certainly can't see it, hence my belief that a clean, brand-new Barbara Gordon becoming a brand-new Batgirl in a brand-new world is the only way to make it fly.

But, then, I HAVE been known to be wrong a time or two, before.

[RobStaeger]

I agree with pretty much everything you say there, Cutter.

[Kevin T Brown]

This is Babs as she was written 30 years ago. How is that new? I'll pick it up, along with Firestorm, because of the author, but I don't like the loss of Oracle and Steph.

No, this is Babs written for today. You're assuming it'll be like it was 30 years ago.

IMO, even though Babs as Oracle was great, I much prefer her to be Batgirl.

[Nick Soapdish]

It was 2009, Cutter, not 2004. Not that it really changes the context since it's an opportunity for a complete change now. I can't say that I exactly agree with that argument since it's not a vacuum and us fans are all still aware of it. But it's early and I've already speculated enough about the titles.


Agreed. If Black Canary is the only original bird in the new Birds of Prey how the hell are they still calling it 'Birds of Prey?' I thought the title was an amusing play on the fact that most of the ladies on the team had bird-like names. Now you have Poison Ivy, Katana and some other chick. Sounds to me like they're trying to sell this new book based on the name alone.


Justice League has had a constant change of members. For example, it looks like only half the members in the 1987 Justice League had been members before. Heck, they have that kind of changeover even without renumberings.

And the original name isn't because most of the characters had bird names. The original title had just Black Canary and Oracle. According to Gorf, it doesn't mean anything and just sounds catchy. They were just stumped for a title and didn't think that Black Canary & Oracle would cut it. I think there was something about bird being British slang for a woman, but that might've been something that a fan brought up after the fact. It wasn't even supposed to be a team name and I don't think that they were ever called that while Chuck was writing them, but that changed pretty quickly after he left.

[JBK405]

It was only brought up in the series for the first time by Zinda (I miss her already) in issue number #86 (I think) where she recmmended it as a team name (She pointed out that Blackhawk and Canary fit, and Huntress did as a predator ideal, although she admitted Oracle didn't match). The funny thing is that in that and subsequent issues several characters specifically said that their team was not named "Birds of Prey." Of course, people continued to use the name both in and out of the comics, so after a while Babs stopped protesting and started calling everybody "the Birds" just like everybody else.

[J.R. LeMar]

Count me in! Finally a Gail Simone book I can commit to buying (well, buying the first issue @ least, then I'll stick with it if I like it).

[Nick Soapdish]

It was only brought up in the series for the first time by Zinda (I miss her already) in issue number #86 (I think) where she recmmended it as a team name (She pointed out that Blackhawk and Canary fit, and Huntress did as a predator ideal, although she admitted Oracle didn't match). The funny thing is that in that and subsequent issues several characters specifically said that their team was not named "Birds of Prey." Of course, people continued to use the name both in and out of the comics, so after a while Babs stopped protesting and started calling everybody "the Birds" just like everybody else.

I thought that one of the tweener writers between Chuck and Gail also used the term. (I looked on Wikipedia. It didn't help, but did backed up your account about #86.) I know that Stephanie was referring to them as the birds before that. Maybe during Jon Lewis' run of Robin. There was a very brief time when it looked like she'd get trained by Babs and Dinah which apparently got kiboshed by Chuck leaving BOP. Or maybe editorial's future plans to turn her into a sacrificial Robin.

[michealdark]

Yeah. That's the ONE saving grace I can hope for. Outside of the exo-suit costume she's still disabled.

Of course DC is only letting this shit leak out little by little. Would be nice to Oracle fans, and DC's fans of disability their new diverse universe supposedly appeals to, if DC would actually tell us what is going on with one of their big iconic characters!

I agree it would be nice. The exo-suit idea could work. I could also see Wendy being Oracle now.


Quite simply, if this isn't a psyche-out, then I will no longer be purchasing any books by Gail Simone. I'll be too disappointed in her.

http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab132/D1Puck1T/simoneonbatgirl.jpg?t=1307398203


I certainly do not blame her for the idea.

Agreeing to write the book, however, and giving the concept her stamp of approval? Well, I've already stated my reaction to that.



I do not see it as a good thing that Gail is lending this decision more credibility. She probably is one of the few writers that could manage to do anything good at all with this. I would prefer that nothing good at all was done with this. It's going to be a stinker, spraying some sweet perfume on it to try and conceal just how bad it stinks only makes it easier to ignore just how bad this is.

And it's attitudes like this that make everyone else that's not already a comic book fan look down on the rest of us. Makes them think we're stagnant pound water still stuck in our childhoods. I prefer to try at least an issue or two before I crap on a book. I can't understand why YOU can't do that. Is that not a healthier attitude towards life, to try new things before you shit on them? But no, just keep making the rest of us look bad. I need to fill my ignore list anyways.


Yeah.

Adam Hughes, doing covers for Batgirl.

I guess I'm okay with that. :)

I hope they do some of the variant cover sketches he had drawn, they were AMAZING.

Awesome! Love Hughes's work.

[Spiffy]

I certainly do not blame her for the idea.

Agreeing to write the book, however, and giving the concept her stamp of approval? Well, I've already stated my reaction to that.



I do not see it as a good thing that Gail is lending this decision more credibility. She probably is one of the few writers that could manage to do anything good at all with this. I would prefer that nothing good at all was done with this. It's going to be a stinker, spraying some sweet perfume on it to try and conceal just how bad it stinks only makes it easier to ignore just how bad this is.
Good lord. You admit she's the best choice, and yet you still insist on pre-judging it.

If Gail's track record was terrible, if she had no vision or positive track record, and no clear passion for the character, I could see it. Some of the rebooted titles DO seem possibly terrible, but I'm basing that on a combination of the character choices being made AND the creative team. But here the creative team is a good one. And yet all you're seeing is your own bitterness over the change and not ANY of the possibilities.

In an ideal world would Gail Simone have preferred no reboot? Well she doesn't have to speak to that, because her own carefully captured post people have been using against her from 2 years ago proves she wouldn't. But that's not the same thing as pre-judging that she can't make a nice meal for us out of the scraps she's been given.

[Spiffy]

That would be a completely insane reason for Gail to accept the assignment. You could say, "they'd hire someone else to do it" but in the act of lending her name to the title, Gail brings a tremendous amount of goodwill from thousands of readers - which in the first few, crucial months, may do a great deal to help assure that DC sticks with this new status quo.
So you'd prefer she risked her job, as well as a lot of capital she's built with DC, over a USELESS protest, over some vague notion that if the reboot tanked that DC might decide to RE-CRIPPLE Babs Gordon, then hand the resulting book BACK to Gail?

Good lord. Does fandom really think this way?

What probably would have happened is that she would have lost all influence over the character, AND if the reboot under someone else hadn't worked, then Barbara Gordon likely would have gone into cold storage as a character. Killed in some megaevent, or rebooted again in some even worse fashion.

The best thing fans of the character and the writer can do, and SHOULD do, is buy this book. Showing she's not some dated nonviable character. Because otherwise, if she failed here, you're NOT going to get the old version back, I think. You'd more likely get NOTHING.

[J.R. LeMar]

And it's attitudes like this that make everyone else that's not already a comic book fan look down on the rest of us. Makes them think we're stagnant pound water still stuck in our childhoods. I prefer to try at least an issue or two before I crap on a book. I can't understand why YOU can't do that. Is that not a healthier attitude towards life, to try new things before you shit on them? But no, just keep making the rest of us look bad. I need to fill my ignore list anyways.

I agree that Damo is probably over-reacting a bit. But I also think that you're over-reacting here to Damo's over-reaction. I don't think either of you are wrong for your opinions. I am sensitive to the fans of the Barbara as Oracle dynamic, especially those who are disabled and saw her as a hero that they could personally relate to. For me though, I always just had a hard time suspending my disbelief to accept that it was impossible for her to be cured within the DCU, and being Oracle made it worse since she was constantly in contact with, or had the contact info of, so many heroes who could have easily cured her either through scientific or supernatural means. So bringing her back as Batgirl works for me.

[michealdark]

I think its been established that Babs didn't want superscience or magic used on her because she didn't want to be treated special. As I pointed out on the Bendis section, there's an easy out for that now, and that's two reports out this week of successful use of stem cells. One is a man functionally cured of HIV with bone marrow stem cells, the other a paralyzed man that has regained some feeling in his legs thanks to embryonic stem cells. It also allows you to subtlety insert a quick, easily missed political commentary (stem cells can work, people!). I also see the possibility of Wendy staying on as an Oracle type character. She's got the same hacking and information gathering skills as Babs, but she's still young and rather untested. There's story potential in watching her grown into the role.

[J.R. LeMar]

I think its been established that Babs didn't want superscience or magic used on her because she didn't want to be treated special.

Yeah, I've heard folks say that before, and it always seemed like a dumb explanation to me. Like I said, I personally just always had trouble completely buying the premise of Oracle. It seemed especially stupid to me when Bruce Wayne got his back broken and was confined to a wheelchair, only to be cured a few months later, thanks to his super-powered ex-girlfriend. But, again, I'm trashing those who did love that version of the character, because I can understand their frustration.

[michealdark]

I think it makes sense to me. A hero shouldn't want to be treated special, they should want others to share in it. Thanks to that story about the paralyzed man regaining feeling in his legs thanks to stem cell therapy though, you now have a viable way to cure Babs and have that cure shared with other people (Wayne Industries! The Leader in Stem Cell Research and other Biomedical Innovations!. Now covered by AARP, Blue Cross Blue Shield, Humana, and Cigna!)

[Aiguille]

Ugh. Not happy. Not happy at all. Count me in with Jill Pantozzi (http://www.newsarama.com/comics/oracle-is-stronger-than-batgirl-110606.html) on that one. I'm 28 with spastic diplegic cerebral palsy, I get around with a lofstrand crutch, and Oracle is my power fantasy. I see this word "inspire" cropping up in this thread in regards to Oracle and I say that's off the mark, even patronizingly reductive. Are ethnic minority heroes created to be "inspiring"? What the issue is, is a matter of representation, of saying we get to be depicted and have our power fantasies too. See Oracle balk at stairs, but also see her do the fantastic and beat supervillain ass. Heck we even get a little bit of wish fulfillment from time to time. Anybody remember the brief shots of Barbara's hot physical therapist? I do, and very envious was I. Now, I just don't know. I'll give it a shot, after all, Gail Simone is my favorite writer, but my power fantasy looks to be gone. I tried Soldier Zero and found it earnest but bland, I'm trying Venom, and finding it more personal in it's disability commentary (Yup, lotta churches don't want you but you're welcome at the bar) but poor Flash Thompson is at the mercy of his dysfunctional/emotionally abusive mobility aid and his government handlers, so the autonomy that Oracle attained escapes him. That's actually oddly trenchant, from a disability experience perspective, but not a power fantasy. There's a void opening where a relatable, empowered figure once was. My twin sister is triplegic, and a wheelchair user. I just sent the confirmation from IGN over IM. She's not as hardcore on comics as me, but Birds of Prey was one of the few titles she read consistantly when I'd loan her my weekly pulls. Her response: "I hope it won't last." Like a lot of people, she figured this was inevitable, but she tells me: "This just shows DC doesn't want to put effort into widening its demographic."

(Incidentally what's all this "bound" business? I thought we were getting rid of that in the style manuals, but even Pantozzi uses it. The chair actually helps one get around, increasing freedom and mobility, just like my crutch, which I "use" does for me. House-bound is what we'd be without 'em.)

[t.c.johnson]

And it's attitudes like this that make everyone else that's not already a comic book fan look down on the rest of us. Makes them think we're stagnant pound water still stuck in our childhoods.

And reverting the character back to something of put childhoods is way to fight that perception?

People enjoyed the character if Oracle, the wheelchair being a part of that character. And now the character is gone probably for good. I could imagine her fans are upset, yes.

Personally I don't like the message that apparently dc thinks people with disabilities can be heroic. Seems to be an odd way to push for diversity.

[michealdark]

I think you can get those same thing from Wendy, plus get a story of someone growing into that hero role. But I understand you points. Certainly, Babs had her most character growth as Oracle and it would be sad to lose that. Believe me, I share the pain.

[michealdark]

And reverting the character back to something of put childhoods is way to fight that perception?

No, but pissing on the book, and Gail for taking it, before it even comes out is a dumb attitude to take. I can understand reluctance to get it. I can understand being so tied to Babs as Oracle that you might not want to get it. But to say that no matter what it's gonna suck and essentially call the writer a moron, that's something else completely. That's not bitterness, that's called being a dick. What a piss poor introduction to make on GAIL'S BOARD.

[Phantom Eagle]

The response to this is really baffling. No matter the corporate intervention, and rebooting of histories, it's still going to be one of our favorite writers on the character she's idolized all her life.

Exactly. More than willing to give it a shot, based on this alone.

[trypr]

I completely understand why Gail wants to be on this book, and I know she's aware of the issues involved, I do not blame her. But I do not understand why there's a discussion of how a fictional character might be able to walk again when surely the real issue is the representation of disabled people in comics? An extraordinarily well developed, admirable female character with huge appeal, who has raised greater awareness about issues surrounding disability.

I understand the misogyny surrounding her attack and comparisons between her recovery and that of other superheros, but it was over 20 years ago and there are have been many others, and something comparitively unique and good has been created out of this example.

Yes it is fait accompli at this point, but why is the idea that people may have a problem with this, without malice for the book or Gail, and choose not to support it, so surprising? I am defending no specific comments, but that is the tone of most arguement I have read on other sites. People are angry because there was no apparant need except one driven by marketing and subjective preference, weighed against the issue of representation. Anger against DC for selecting an old icon instead of trying to build new ones. It is difficult, really difficult for me to read some of the feeds of support at the moment, because so many appear to dismiss the importance of representation, a matter that affects marginalised individuals, against a bunch of fictional parameters and verisimilitude. I am having a really hard time understanding it, or the suprise at the reactions of people like myself, or the way it is sometimes characterised as reactionary parochialism. DC do need to shake things up, but making Babs Batgirl again and having her walk cannot be a lynchpin of that strategy.

You can't just replace her as Oracle: it took time for her to become a character of that weight. You cannot "fix" her inability to use her legs with pseudo science, or even cutting edge science and claim she is still representative or, even worse, that she should be seen as "inspirational": it is simply erasure.

[michealdark]

What if they have another, similar character that's younger and needs to grow into the role, and has stories that can be told based on that? If the issue is representation, Wendy is still representation.

[Nick Soapdish]

I think you can get those same thing from Wendy, plus get a story of someone growing into that hero role. But I understand you points. Certainly, Babs had her most character growth as Oracle and it would be sad to lose that. Believe me, I share the pain.

With Wendy, you also get the message that being Oracle is the only way for somebody with disabilities to be heroic. And/or that you need a wheelchair to be Oracle (or her Proxy). I'd be interested in a storyline where Tim puts up the cape and boots for a while and assumes the role. Heck, it's a possibility now since Babs is moving again and Tim hasn't shown up.

[Aiguille]

You can't just replace her as Oracle: it took time for her to become a character of that weight. You cannot "fix" her inability to use her legs with pseudo science, or even cutting edge science and claim she is still representative or, even worse, that she should be seen as "inspirational": it is simply erasure.

Bingo. And pointing to Wendy doesn't help matters because her creation wasn't organic. She was defined by her disability, created as a consolation prize, as it were, a relatively flat character before her disablement. Key to Barbara's appeal was that she had a developed personality, so her presentation defied the usual application of depersonalizing stigma. She couldn't be written off as some sop to the awful boogieman of political correctness. She was Barbara first and her disability was second, challenging her ablebodied fans to see the person beyond the status of disabled, even if it rubbed them wrong.

[trypr]

What if they have another, similar character that's younger and needs to grow into the role, and has stories that can be told based on that? If the issue is representation, Wendy is still representation.

Because it is unecessary, because it took a long time in the first place and not all forms of representation are equally valuable: there are problems with Wendy Harris (http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/2626901.html) (edit: as mentioned twice above). Because you would still be losing Oracle.

[michealdark]

With Wendy, you also get the message that being Oracle is the only way for somebody with disabilities to be heroic. And/or that you need a wheelchair to be Oracle (or her Proxy). I'd be interested in a storyline where Tim puts up the cape and boots for a while and assumes the role. Heck, it's a possibility now since Babs is moving again and Tim hasn't shown up.

You don't have to be disabled to be an info broker, but if the issue is really representation, then you do need to have a handicapable hero of some kind. Otherwise the criticism of taking that out of their supposedly diverse universe becomes truly valid.


Bingo. And pointing to Wendy doesn't help matters because her creation wasn't organic. She was defined by her disability, created as a consolation prize, as it were, a relatively flat character before her disablement. Key to Barbara's appeal was that she had a developed personality, so her presentation defied the usual application of depersonalizing stigma. She couldn't be written off as some sop to the awful boogieman of political correctness. She was Barbara first and her disability was second, challenging her ablebodied fans to see the person beyond the status of disabled, even if it rubbed them wrong.

That's true, although I do think Miller has done a lot to bring some personality to Wendy.

[michealdark]

Because it is unecessary, because it took a long time in the first place and not all forms of representation are equally valuable: there are problems with Wendy Harris (http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/2626901.html) (edit: as mentioned twice above). Because you would still be losing Oracle.

That's true only if you view Babs and Oracle and inextricably linked. That you can't have someone named Oracle unless that someone is Babs. Barbara Gordon is more than the title of Oracle. She's more that the title of Batgirl. And she'd still be Babara Gordon even if she didn't have a title.

[Hugin]

No, this is Babs written for today. You're assuming it'll be like it was 30 years ago.

IMO, even though Babs as Oracle was great, I much prefer her to be Batgirl.You seem to think that all change is progress. This is regression. A character isn't being created or altered, she's being dialed back to a time when she was far less interesting. I agree, it's technically change, but only in the same way that rotten apples are technically food.

[trypr]

That's true only if you view Babs and Oracle and inextricably linked. That you can't have someone named Oracle unless that someone is Babs. Barbara Gordon is more than the title of Oracle. She's more that the title of Batgirl. And she'd still be Babara Gordon even if she didn't have a title.

If she walks then she ceases to be representative. And she can't be easily replaced because she is "Barbara Gordon", as you put it. You can't make Proxy Oracle, for example, because she wouldn't be: and the gulf is the difference between what makes Barbara Gordon such a strong example of positive representation and Wendy's near tokenism. Click the link in the previous post ^_-

[michealdark]

Oh, if I'm coming across as a complete ass, please tell me. I will admit I probably overreacted to that one guy earlier, so if he comes back I'll apologize to him. I still think his attitude is really crappy though to completely dismiss the book offhand without it being out and denigrating Gail for accepting it.

Yeah, I'm probably being paranoid, but I sense some hostility to me because I don't think I'm explaining myself that well.

[michealdark]

If she walks then she ceases to be representative. And she can't be easily replaced because she is "Barbara Gordon", as you put it. You can't make Proxy Oracle, for example, because she wouldn't be: and the gulf is the difference between what makes Barbara Gordon such a strong example of positive representation and Wendy's near tokenism. Click the link in the previous post ^_-

I did. I can understand the point of the article, but I think it sells Wendy's ability to grow as a character short.

[Spiffy]

I think you can get those same thing from Wendy, plus get a story of someone growing into that hero role. But I understand you points. Certainly, Babs had her most character growth as Oracle and it would be sad to lose that. Believe me, I share the pain.
People will be frustrated that what already existed in a workable form has to be recreated all over again, and maybe not done as well.

That said, I think its KEY that since they are doing this with Barbara that once its done, its done. I keep saying it... the only thing worse than taking away your best disabled hero is... a stupid complex manipulation winding up with her re-crippled.

The way to go forward is to create a new disabled hero from the ground up. In my opinion, even Wendy is less than ideal, because they had to cripple her as part of a story so lame it made Barbara's original injury look like genius writing (which it wasn't--at least at that time). Make a character who's a NEW character and disabled from the first time we meet them.

[michealdark]

I can see that too.

[Nick Soapdish]

You don't have to be disabled to be an info broker, but if the issue is really representation, then you do need to have a handicapable hero of some kind. Otherwise the criticism of taking that out of their supposedly diverse universe becomes truly valid.

That hero doesn't have to be a computer hacker / information broker. Wendy isn't a good replacement for Babs precisely because she was obviously designed to be a cookie cutter replacement, getting crippled right when Babs was first slated to be healed.

Using Wendy and healing Babs tells people that DC believes that hacker is the only way that a handicapped person can be capable. For example, a person in a wheelchair could play an active role in comics as a politician, a police commissioner, a scientist, a journalist or an administrator of a team. (Ironically, Babs has already played three of these roles - two in alternate realities.) I don't think that they even would have to be a hero (as in a starring character) as long as they're portrayed as a strong and capable supporting character.


That's true only if you view Babs and Oracle and inextricably linked. That you can't have someone named Oracle unless that someone is Babs. Barbara Gordon is more than the title of Oracle. She's more that the title of Batgirl. And she'd still be Babara Gordon even if she didn't have a title.

I may be more of a new comics fan, but to me, she is Oracle. KJ was four years before I started collecting and I always saw Babs as Oracle except for a couple appearances in BTAS. Sure, she can have a legacy character take over for her. (Heck, Batman and everybody else already have.) But it'll take a long time before that person becomes the new iconic Oracle. I'd say decades, but that didn't even work for Wally or Kyle.

[Spiffy]

With Wendy, you also get the message that being Oracle is the only way for somebody with disabilities to be heroic. And/or that you need a wheelchair to be Oracle (or her Proxy). I'd be interested in a storyline where Tim puts up the cape and boots for a while and assumes the role. Heck, it's a possibility now since Babs is moving again and Tim hasn't shown up.
Exactly. Which is part of why I think the next "disabled icon" needs to take a different approach. I don't think Babs is going to be written as using some kind of exoskeleton, like people are speculating. So I'd take that idea and transfer it to an all new hero (again, NOT just a current hero crippled just to provide fodder for this plot--that's TERRIBLE and exploitative if they do that). My notion is a scientist, who's a para or quadriplegic, who builds their own exoskeleton and becomes a superhero. There. Its interesting and not simply a retread of Oracle. Does it make things all better? Heck, no. But it would be better than "fill in the blank with Wendy".

[Hugin]

Exactly. Which is part of why I think the next "disabled icon" needs to take a different approach. I don't think Babs is going to be written as using some kind of exoskeleton, like people are speculating. So I'd take that idea and transfer it to an all new hero (again, NOT just a current hero crippled just to provide fodder for this plot--that's TERRIBLE and exploitative if they do that). My notion is a scientist, who's a para or quadriplegic, who builds their own exoskeleton and becomes a superhero. There. Its interesting and not simply a retread of Oracle. Does it make things all better? Heck, no. But it would be better than "fill in the blank with Wendy".If there weren't already 4 Green Lanterns, I'd say making a new Lantern would be perfect. Or maybe even a magic-based hero in a wheelchair. You don't need to be able to walk to cast, after all, and it stays away from the Daredevil effect(hero with a disability and a power that perfectly cancels that disability).

[michealdark]

That hero doesn't have to be a computer hacker / information broker. Wendy isn't a good replacement for Babs precisely because she was obviously designed to be a cookie cutter replacement, getting crippled right when Babs was first slated to be healed.

Okay, but that hero couldn't be Oracle then. To be an oracle implies that your a source of information. That you're support for people who come seeking advice. In fact hasn't Babs had visions of the Oracle of Delphi guiding her along, that's how entwined the concept of Oracle is with the historical truth of the term?


Using Wendy and healing Babs tells people that DC believes that hacker is the only way that a handicapped person can be capable. For example, a person in a wheelchair could play an active role in comics as a politician, a police commissioner, a scientist, a journalist or an administrator of a team. (Ironically, Babs has already played three of these roles - two in alternate realities.) I don't think that they even would have to be a hero (as in a starring character) as long as they're portrayed as a strong and capable supporting character.

That I will agree with.

[michealdark]

Exactly. Which is part of why I think the next "disabled icon" needs to take a different approach. I don't think Babs is going to be written as using some kind of exoskeleton, like people are speculating. So I'd take that idea and transfer it to an all new hero (again, NOT just a current hero crippled just to provide fodder for this plot--that's TERRIBLE and exploitative if they do that). My notion is a scientist, who's a para or quadriplegic, who builds their own exoskeleton and becomes a superhero. There. Its interesting and not simply a retread of Oracle. Does it make things all better? Heck, no. But it would be better than "fill in the blank with Wendy".

It sounds interesting at first, until you remember that that's Tony Stark.

[trypr]

It sounds interesting at first, until you remember that that's Tony Stark.

Or Cyborg.

Although you can argue that these characters are disabled, they don't serve as especially good representation because their prosthetics often render their disability invisible (even when not giving them super-powers). Never mind that there are many different kinds of disability, presenting different issues.

Also, icons are created, not designed. Babs has been a success because she is so much more than her disability, while living with it.

[michealdark]

Yeah.

Actually one could argue Cass Cain was a disabled character for a long time. Nonlingual, emotionally closed off, illiterate, and when she did learn to speak it was with a major speech impediment. I wouldn't say that about her now, but she she first came out one could make that argument.

Change of topic: I think so long as Gail is writing her, Babs will still be Babs. The only difference will be that now she can kick people in the head instead of bludgeon them half to death with escrima sticks.

[trypr]

I happen to agree about Cass, and I think that was unfortunate, though driven by different factors: but at the end of the day, she was a new character and the stakes are a bit different.

[Spiffy]

Yeah.

Actually one could argue Cass Cain was a disabled character for a long time. Nonlingual, emotionally closed off, illiterate, and when she did learn to speak it was with a major speech impediment. I wouldn't say that about her now, but she she first came out one could make that argument.

Change of topic: I think so long as Gail is writing her, Babs will still be Babs. The only difference will be that now she can kick people in the head instead of bludgeon them half to death with escrima sticks.
Well the thing is a Babs as Batgirl might SEEM a bit different to people looking for fault, because (and Gail's own announcement confirms this in a way), Babs as Batgirl was very... lets call it "cheeky" as a character. Whereas as Oracle, that side was often a bit less prominent, even if we still saw it occasionally. Batgirl The Series is bound to be a bit more freewheeling, and I'll bet maybe even campy, if the idea is to recapture the spirit of the original. I can see that possibly leading people to think the character has been "changed".

[michealdark]

That could be. Or it could be that it will be more in line with Steph's series, where it could be lighthearted and serious at the same time.

I also wouldn't call all of Frank Robbin's run as entirely campy.

[Gail Simone]

You know, it's not like Gail has never said something that she wishes she never said. :)

What did I do now?

[Ravenwing263]

You know, everything I've heard about this reboot seems like a smart move for DC. Getting back to the most known versions of characters, ditching continuity baggage, all of that is exactly what we've all been saying DC needs to do, for years.

This whole thing seems like a really smart way to attract some of the millions of people who love super-heroes but don't buy comics, and I applaud DC for trying some radical.

That being said, as a reader who's invested hundreds of dollars, hundreds of hours, and an immense amount of care and passion, into the DC Universe that exists now, every fucking thing I hear about it makes me want to cry, a little, and this illustrates that pretty perfectly.

I care so much about Oracle, and about Cassandra Cain. Babs as Batgirl breaks my heart.

[DarkKnightJared]

You know, I'm pretty interested in this--not just because of Gail and Syaf, but because I'm hoping that the change makes Babs more sympathetic as a character.

Okay, this might be considered an insult to Miss Simone, and I'm really not trying to do that, but the more I think about it, the more I think that while Oracle made Babs a more powerful force in the DCU, it really seemed to make her into Bruce-lite. I don't even mean the good Bruce-lite where she's badass and driven--I mean the 90s Bat-Dick Batman, the anti-social creep that's just seconds away from screaming "MY PARENTS ARE DEAD!!!" I mean, she often manipulated her team-mates, spied on everyone, a lot of her plans, especially concerning people, seemed to bite her on the ass--the only thing that they didn't have in common was that Babs was really never called out on her shit.

So I'm hoping that this new Batgirl title will have the good aspects of Oracle--the schemer, the super-intelligent computer whiz--but bringing her more into a happier and trusting place, where she can actually laugh and joke and be more than just an anti-social hacker.

[Kingsmythe]

You know, everything I've heard about this reboot seems like a smart move for DC. Getting back to the most known versions of characters.

But they aren't. Damian is still Robin. The best known Robin would be Dick Grayson, followed by Tim Drake, who was Robin on Batman The Animated Series. And they are doing a book about the Red Lanterns, known by... well, no one. Hell, I don't even really know who they are. First time I saw one it was a cat throwing up on someone and I said "Yeah... ok... no thanks" and haven't really touched the Technicolor Lantern Corps since.

[DarkKnightJared]

But they aren't. Damian is still Robin. The best known Robin would be Dick Grayson, followed by Tim Drake, who was Robin on Batman The Animated Series. And they are doing a book about the Red Lanterns, known by... well, no one. Hell, I don't even really know who they are. First time I saw one it was a cat throwing up on someone and I said "Yeah... ok... no thanks" and haven't really touched the Technicolor Lantern Corps since.

To be fair, the Red Lanterns will be the villains in the upcoming Green Lantern cartoon series.

As for Damian...the answer that comes to my head why he's still around is, "He's fucking awesome, and new readers SHOULD know who he is." Plus, he was in Batman: Brave & The Bold, albeit a bit watered-down due to only having a semi-crazy mom in Catwoman.

[Gail Simone]

You know, I'm pretty interested in this--not just because of Gail and Syaf, but because I'm hoping that the change makes Babs more sympathetic as a character.

Okay, this might be considered an insult to Miss Simone, and I'm really not trying to do that, but the more I think about it, the more I think that while Oracle made Babs a more powerful force in the DCU, it really seemed to make her into Bruce-lite. I don't even mean the good Bruce-lite where she's badass and driven--I mean the 90s Bat-Dick Batman, the anti-social creep that's just seconds away from screaming "MY PARENTS ARE DEAD!!!" I mean, she often manipulated her team-mates, spied on everyone, a lot of her plans, especially concerning people, seemed to bite her on the ass--the only thing that they didn't have in common was that Babs was really never called out on her shit.

So I'm hoping that this new Batgirl title will have the good aspects of Oracle--the schemer, the super-intelligent computer whiz--but bringing her more into a happier and trusting place, where she can actually laugh and joke and be more than just an anti-social hacker.

No, it's fine, everyone's opinion is welcome!

[Erica J Heflin]

You know, I'm pretty interested in this--not just because of Gail and Syaf, but because I'm hoping that the change makes Babs more sympathetic as a character.

Okay, this might be considered an insult to Miss Simone, and I'm really not trying to do that, but the more I think about it, the more I think that while Oracle made Babs a more powerful force in the DCU, it really seemed to make her into Bruce-lite. I don't even mean the good Bruce-lite where she's badass and driven--I mean the 90s Bat-Dick Batman, the anti-social creep that's just seconds away from screaming "MY PARENTS ARE DEAD!!!" I mean, she often manipulated her team-mates, spied on everyone, a lot of her plans, especially concerning people, seemed to bite her on the ass--the only thing that they didn't have in common was that Babs was really never called out on her shit.

So I'm hoping that this new Batgirl title will have the good aspects of Oracle--the schemer, the super-intelligent computer whiz--but bringing her more into a happier and trusting place, where she can actually laugh and joke and be more than just an anti-social hacker.

I'm pretty sure Helena and Dinah both called her on it. I've always thought that Babs at least was manipulative because she thought it was in her friends best interest. Not that it makes it better, but its a lot more sympathetic reasoning in my mind than some of the shit Bruce pulls. Though I agree, it's hard to imagine seeing that side of things when she's Batgirl...

[Corrina]

What did I do now?

someone was quoting an old post from CBR that had you saying putting Babs back in tights would be insane.

I was trying to make a joke and point out that sometimes you say things off the cuff.

It was late. The kid was throwing up. So the joke wasn't that funny. Sorry.

[Dr Ray Palmer]

I'm pretty sure I would be feeling negative and grossed out by the Babs-as-Batgirl concept if this book were being written by anyone other than Gail. But as it is, this is the first announcement in this whole nuDC thing I am actually really excited about. I know, I'm as surprised as anyone.

[spankminister]

I think that while Oracle made Babs a more powerful force in the DCU, it really seemed to make her into Bruce-lite. I don't even mean the good Bruce-lite where she's badass and driven--I mean the 90s Bat-Dick Batman, the anti-social creep that's just seconds away from screaming "MY PARENTS ARE DEAD!!!" I mean, she often manipulated her team-mates, spied on everyone, a lot of her plans, especially concerning people, seemed to bite her on the ass--the only thing that they didn't have in common was that Babs was really never called out on her shit.

Actually one of my favorite BoP scenes is Huntress calling her out on it, on "handling" her like the problem child in a classroom, I'm sure someone can post the link. I never liked the Bat-Jerk interpretation of Batman either, but I think that Huntress/Oracle scene called into relief the complexities of Oracle's character. I don't see those character traits as good/bad, trusting/distrusting, that conflict is what makes her interesting to me. As a person, she is genuinely friends with her colleagues and happy being around them, but her doing her job well as Oracle often means managing them on a level that they can't know about, effectively lying to or manipulating them. Having to reconcile and compartmentalize her roles as a leader/information broker and friend are what I saw as the core of her character in the early BoP run.

The new Batgirl title will have to do something different, and I think you're right in that the manipulative aspects will probably be downplayed. I'll give Gail the benefit of the doubt for this new characterization. But I never saw Babs as an anti-social hacker, but as a "happy and trusting" friend, but my tolerance for scheming characters may be higher than yours.

[JBK405]

I thought that one of the tweener writers between Chuck and Gail also used the term. (I looked on Wikipedia. It didn't help, but did backed up your account about #86.) I know that Stephanie was referring to them as the birds before that. Maybe during Jon Lewis' run of Robin. There was a very brief time when it looked like she'd get trained by Babs and Dinah which apparently got kiboshed by Chuck leaving BOP. Or maybe editorial's future plans to turn her into a sacrificial Robin.

I'm not sure about Stephanie, I haven't been able to pick up too much of her story before her run as Batgirl and some of the Spoiler days. What I took from the dialogue in #86 was that people were calling them the Birds of Prey, at least in other books and when people talked about it in real life, and that Gail wanted to tell everybody "hey, it's the name of the series, they don't actually call themselves that."

Of course, I have been wrong before on what people were trying to say with their dialogue, so take it with a grain of salt.

Also, on the topic of the thread (Why am I talking about BoP in the Batgirl thread when there's another BoP thread already going?) people have really gone at each other over whether or not this change counts as a regression (Turning Barabara back into exactly what she was before she became Oracle) or some progressive movement (Becoming something new), and I think that really depends on how old Barbara is in this new series.

Almost all the adaptations ignore this part, but Barbara was originally much more Batwoman than Batgirl, she was an adult when she first donned the mask. Heck, she'd already earned her Ph.D. before ever dressing up and she eventually became a congresswoman. Despite what Batman: The Animated Series, The Batman and Batman & Robin try to say, she was never really Batman's sidekick or traineee, but a partner. Almost an equal (I say "almost" because he was still the primary character).

Is this new Batgirl going to keep that portion of the character, that of an already-adult woman who is all grown up, or is she becoming a teenage sidekick?

I'd actually be fine with either, since Stephanie Brown's sidekick-status (I'm using a really liberal definition of "sidekick" here) was fodder for one of the absolutely best series I'm reading right now (Gail, I honestly believe that you'll deliver a great story, but I'm still crushed that we're losing Brian Miller) and I'd also like a Bat-character to really equal Batman, as opposed to being a junior partner in both age, skill and life experience. The trick is that, depending on which Batgirl version they go with, will really show if they're snapping back to what Barbara originally was, or just going back to what people think Barbara was.

[Dr Ray Palmer]

Actually one of my favorite BoP scenes is Huntress calling her out on it, on "handling" her like the problem child in a classroom, I'm sure someone can post the link. I never liked the Bat-Jerk interpretation of Batman either, but I think that Huntress/Oracle scene called into relief the complexities of Oracle's character. I don't see those character traits as good/bad, trusting/distrusting, that conflict is what makes her interesting to me.

Yes, that's one of my all-time favorite BoP scenes -- but one I like even better is the followup to that confrontation a few issues later, where Babs breaks into Helena's home and lays it all out on the table. I liked Babs before, but that scene, man, it gets me Every. Single. Time. When I think of why I love comics, that Babs/Helena scene is always one of the first things that comes to my mind.

[RobStaeger]

someone was quoting an old post from CBR that had you saying putting Babs back in tights would be insane.

I was trying to make a joke and point out that sometimes you say things off the cuff.



Wait.. that tights have cuffs now???

I'm sorry, but that's just a bridge too far.

[Patrick Gerard]

I think it makes sense to me. A hero shouldn't want to be treated special, they should want others to share in it. Thanks to that story about the paralyzed man regaining feeling in his legs thanks to stem cell therapy though, you now have a viable way to cure Babs and have that cure shared with other people (Wayne Industries! The Leader in Stem Cell Research and other Biomedical Innovations!. Now covered by AARP, Blue Cross Blue Shield, Humana, and Cigna!)

I get frustrated by this grounded take on the DCU. I liked Metropolis as the City of Tomorrow, complete with flying cars, and I have a hard time buying that basic insurance doesn't cover magic, nanites, and purple healing rays.

[Spiffy]

The new Batgirl title will have to do something different, and I think you're right in that the manipulative aspects will probably be downplayed. I'll give Gail the benefit of the doubt for this new characterization. But I never saw Babs as an anti-social hacker, but as a "happy and trusting" friend, but my tolerance for scheming characters may be higher than yours.
See, I hope its not THAT much of a whitewash too. If this really is playing into the Silver Ageish version of her, then I expect her to be irreverent and wisecracking. I expect a bit of gleeful enthusiasm at what she's doing. And I could also see a bit of competitiveness again with other heroes (obviously the "classic" was her beating out Dick Grayson--although since was also always written an adult I remember her trying to take down Batman down a few pegs too). So a little bit of smugness, a little bit of arrogance (as long as its within limits) would also probably be there. I'm not sure that would qualify as happy happy friend friend time. Barbara assumes she's smarter than most other people. Because most of the time she IS. I think that has to be part of her character.

[Dr Ray Palmer]

See, I hope its not THAT much of a whitewash too. If this really is playing into the Silver Ageish version of her, then I expect her to be irreverent and wisecracking. I expect a bit of gleeful enthusiasm at what she's doing.

I agree. I don't want her to be grim and no fun. Fortunately, I doubt Gail will do that to her.

I hope nu-Babs is still a librarian. Information is POWER, and nobody knows information like librarians.

[spankminister]

So a little bit of smugness, a little bit of arrogance (as long as its within limits) would also probably be there. I'm not sure that would qualify as happy happy friend friend time. Barbara assumes she's smarter than most other people. Because most of the time she IS. I think that has to be part of her character.

Totally agree with you there. The tricky thing with super smart characters is giving them enough flaws to not be grating Mary Sue/Gary Stus, yet not having those flaws be too contrived. I'd always thought Tim, while likeable enough, was two-dimensional as a super-intelligent audience wish fulfillment fanboy turned superhero. I rethought that at the end of that Teen Titans issue where they revealed he was trying to re-clone Conner. It seemed a natural pitfall of the emotionally immature boy genius who was so used to thinking his way out of problems, he'd apply it to everything, unable to see the lines he's crossing. DCAU's Batgirl's flaw seemed that she was a little star-struck, not having grown up in the costume, which I didn't mind as much as some other fans. I think you're right that the chip on her shoulder that comes with being young and supremely competent is a logical place to start with the comics Batgirl.

[Spiffy]

I agree. I don't want her to be grim and no fun. Fortunately, I doubt Gail will do that to her.

I hope nu-Babs is still a librarian. Information is POWER, and nobody knows information like librarians.
Modernize.

While its true librarians still exist, its more of a niche job than it used to be. Instead I'd seek some equivalent. Something slightly different but with similar emphasis on information.

Heck, here's the way to continue the Oracle aspect, even if indirectly if Oracle never existed. Make Babs the Civilian an I.T. person. A computer professional. TONS of opportunity for her to worm her way into trouble with that, and of course its inherently infocentric.


I think you're right that the chip on her shoulder that comes with being young and supremely competent is a logical place to start with the comics Batgirl.
See, I can call it already that if this is what happens some small vocal minority will get on about her being "unlikable". But I think that's nonsense. "Cheeky" is how I always defined Batgirl in my mind. Her one-upping Robin.

You know, I wonder if Jason Bard is on the way back. He fell by the wayside after One-Year-Later and it would be interesting to put him back in Batgirl's sphere (where he started). I say if we're getting Silver Age, then embrace it and modernize off the template. All the bitching and moaning about "regression" aside, its kind of a done deal. So roll with it.

[DarkKnightJared]

Actually one of my favorite BoP scenes is Huntress calling her out on it, on "handling" her like the problem child in a classroom, I'm sure someone can post the link. I never liked the Bat-Jerk interpretation of Batman either, but I think that Huntress/Oracle scene called into relief the complexities of Oracle's character. I don't see those character traits as good/bad, trusting/distrusting, that conflict is what makes her interesting to me. As a person, she is genuinely friends with her colleagues and happy being around them, but her doing her job well as Oracle often means managing them on a level that they can't know about, effectively lying to or manipulating them. Having to reconcile and compartmentalize her roles as a leader/information broker and friend are what I saw as the core of her character in the early BoP run.

The new Batgirl title will have to do something different, and I think you're right in that the manipulative aspects will probably be downplayed. I'll give Gail the benefit of the doubt for this new characterization. But I never saw Babs as an anti-social hacker, but as a "happy and trusting" friend, but my tolerance for scheming characters may be higher than yours.

Maybe you're right--I just always found it odd that all these fans hated Bruce because he was a "Bat-jerk," but NO ONE ever put Barbara in the same label for doing a lot of the same things.

[RobStaeger]

Depending on the library, librarians ARE computer professionals.

[scout1279]

I think everyone is ignoring the important question. Will Batgirl be carrying a purse?

[Erica J Heflin]

I think everyone is ignoring the important question. Will Batgirl be carrying a purse?


Oh... if it's red then they're retconning to when when Babs had the worst fashion sense. She was practically in sweater-vest land during part of Dixon's run...

[RobStaeger]

I'm really impressed with the way they've been incorporating new colors into the Batman derivative designs. Red returned initially with Batman Beyond, and then was used in Brave & the Bold, and then it's spread to the books -- including Nightwing, who looks wonderful. Steph brought purple back to Batgirl, and now Babs is continuing its use. I'm honestly jazzed to see this expanded use of color -- for too long, with the exception of Robin, the Batbooks were almost entirely gray and green (for whatever villain Batman fought).

[Spiffy]

Depending on the library, librarians ARE computer professionals.
Yes, but the problem with the Librarian job has always been that it can't fold into stories that easily. She's based in a location which is relevant to very few stories. Whereas a more conventional computer professional can, and does, travel and visit all kinds of locations as part of their job.

The library job is great, but it just turns into background. Kind of like that five minutes where Dick Grayson lived in New York and was a museum curator. It was neat, but it JUST DIDN'T PLAY INTO STORIES.

[RobStaeger]

I see your point there. Though I'm not sure if a Gotham-centric Batgirl will need to travel all that much.

[Spiffy]

I see your point there. Though I'm not sure if a Gotham-centric Batgirl will need to travel all that much.
Its less about traveling between cities, and more about having a reason to be in more locations (even if its within one city) to give the civilian identity some relevance to stories, in my opinion. Not that things can't happen at the library, but inevitably the library location would become a millstone, where a writer REALLY has to scheme to even show one second of it, and explaining her long absences and sudden departures from such a structured job also is a problem.

[Erica J Heflin]

But all the cool villains hang out in libraries.

I thought the use of librarian vs. techie was well done in Batgirl: Year One but I may be remembering incorrectly. It's been a while since I read it...

But in a library you get villains like Bookworm. Good stuff!

[Patrick Gerard]

Modernize.

While its true librarians still exist, its more of a niche job than it used to be. Instead I'd seek some equivalent. Something slightly different but with similar emphasis on information.

Heck, here's the way to continue the Oracle aspect, even if indirectly if Oracle never existed. Make Babs the Civilian an I.T. person. A computer professional. TONS of opportunity for her to worm her way into trouble with that, and of course its inherently infocentric.


Exactly my thoughts. I've known people like that, one guy who was a senior systems developer with a guy who worked at a company that did business with Enron and places that ran ponzi and pyramid schemes. The world is full of IT people like that who are sick of lies and hypocrisy but who are also struggling to be professionals. We live in a world governed by NDAs, SEC regulations, etc.

I've dabbled in that field, doing independent contractor document design work for an outfit designed to teach people how NOT to pay taxes.

I think being in that world could be a great foundation for a super-hero and if I updated Babs' origins, a big part of it might be starting her out with employers who are shady and hiring web savvy people. It forces a person to compartmentalize, which could be the seeds of a great super-hero, a Batgirl born of insider trading and NDAs who needs a way to do what's right, outside the letter of the law that she's bound by... and seeing how her father bends the law with Batman could inspire her to do something similar.

Maybe building up to her going Indy with the Oracle Corporation, which could be a kind of super-hero wikileaks which might take the heat off her as Batgirl by taking the information she has access to as a whistleblower and making it public, so it becomes harder to trace Batgirl back to her.

[Patrick Gerard]

I think everyone is ignoring the important question. Will Batgirl be carrying a purse?

Laptop bag. Duh. ;-)

[scout1279]

Don't you guys remember the time all those billionaires were hanging out in the library Babs was working at, none of them noticing the costumed villains sitting casually at one of the tables, and Batgirl thwarted a kidnapping with her compact?

The library is totally a place where exciting things happen.

[scout1279]

Stupid double post.

[Erica J Heflin]

Don't you guys remember the time all those billionaires were hanging out in the library Babs was working at, none of them noticing the costumed villains sitting casually at one of the tables, and Batgirl thwarted a kidnapping with her compact?


Unless of course she got a run in her tights... But then at least she had Batman and the Boy Wonder to back her up!

[scout1279]

Unless of course she got a run in her tights... But then at least she had Batman and the Boy Wonder to back her up!

She was trying to distract the bad guys!

[Stressfactor]

As someone who just got done with a Master's Degree in Library Science (against my will) I've got to say that librarians exist in far greater numbers than you might think it's just that they've gotten with the times and they're doing more than just dispensing books these days.

Librarians ARE information brokers with many of them manning homework help chat sessions and library facilities in Second Life, helping people to navigate information databases, and creating programs to help people with everything from starting a small business to ESL.

There are also special librarians -- for example, I know a person who is the librarian for the a branch of the Federal Reserve Bank, I know another person who is Law Librarian for the local Circuit Court, etc. And I used to know the librarian/archivist for Microsoft.

[Patrick Gerard]

As someone who just got done with a Master's Degree in Library Science (against my will) I've got to say that librarians exist in far greater numbers than you might think it's just that they've gotten with the times and they're doing more than just dispensing books these days.

Librarians ARE information brokers with many of them manning homework help chat sessions and library facilities in Second Life, helping people to navigate information databases, and creating programs to help people with everything from starting a small business to ESL.

There are also special librarians -- for example, I know a person who is the librarian for the a branch of the Federal Reserve Bank, I know another person who is Law Librarian for the local Circuit Court, etc. And I used to know the librarian/archivist for Microsoft.

Not to diminish librarians at all but I also think someone who showed a passing interest in being a librarian in the 70s before ditching it for public office and a career in computing would, if they were young again today, likely not be a librarian today unless it was something they were more passionate about to begin with.

[spankminister]

As someone who just got done with a Master's Degree in Library Science (against my will) I've got to say that librarians exist in far greater numbers than you might think it's just that they've gotten with the times and they're doing more than just dispensing books these days.

I was about to post that I agree with you, then the parenthetical jumped out at me. Is someone blackmailing you, demanding that you get graduate degrees or else?

[Spiffy]

Exactly my thoughts. I've known people like that, one guy who was a senior systems developer with a guy who worked at a company that did business with Enron and places that ran ponzi and pyramid schemes. The world is full of IT people like that who are sick of lies and hypocrisy but who are also struggling to be professionals. We live in a world governed by NDAs, SEC regulations, etc.

I've dabbled in that field, doing independent contractor document design work for an outfit designed to teach people how NOT to pay taxes.

I think being in that world could be a great foundation for a super-hero and if I updated Babs' origins, a big part of it might be starting her out with employers who are shady and hiring web savvy people. It forces a person to compartmentalize, which could be the seeds of a great super-hero, a Batgirl born of insider trading and NDAs who needs a way to do what's right, outside the letter of the law that she's bound by... and seeing how her father bends the law with Batman could inspire her to do something similar.

Maybe building up to her going Indy with the Oracle Corporation, which could be a kind of super-hero wikileaks which might take the heat off her as Batgirl by taking the information she has access to as a whistleblower and making it public, so it becomes harder to trace Batgirl back to her.
Yeah, that's pretty much what I had in mind, although the "tweak" with her having an Oracle Corporation is a very good one. Although since there already IS an "Oracle Corp" in the real world it can't quite be named that. But something similar.

Quick, Patrick. Sign off on Gail being able to use the idea, if she wants, so a good idea isn't lost. :lol:

I know the current version of Power Girl has flirted with some of this territory, but it hasn't really gone that far with it. And I don't think it will before CTRL-ALT-DELETE time.

[RobStaeger]

The Delphi Group, perhaps?

[The Xenos]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I had in mind, although the "tweak" with her having an Oracle Corporation is a very good one. Although since there already IS an "Oracle Corp" in the real world it can't quite be named that. But something similar.Heh. My roommate works for Sun Microsystems and they got bought out by Oracle like last year, so he technically working for them now.

[ayhe]

The cover is beautiful!! And I am 100% sure that Gail will write awesome stories about Batgirl :D

[Patrick Gerard]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I had in mind, although the "tweak" with her having an Oracle Corporation is a very good one. Although since there already IS an "Oracle Corp" in the real world it can't quite be named that. But something similar.

Quick, Patrick. Sign off on Gail being able to use the idea, if she wants, so a good idea isn't lost. :lol:

I know the current version of Power Girl has flirted with some of this territory, but it hasn't really gone that far with it. And I don't think it will before CTRL-ALT-DELETE time.

I'd consent to Gail using it. I'd like my name in the credits of a comic again since I got that with Superman... and kinda regret not pushing for that with Superboy-Prime in spite of the hate mail I'd get for it.

[michealdark]

You know, everything I've heard about this reboot seems like a smart move for DC. Getting back to the most known versions of characters, ditching continuity baggage, all of that is exactly what we've all been saying DC needs to do, for years.

This whole thing seems like a really smart way to attract some of the millions of people who love super-heroes but don't buy comics, and I applaud DC for trying some radical.

That being said, as a reader who's invested hundreds of dollars, hundreds of hours, and an immense amount of care and passion, into the DC Universe that exists now, every fucking thing I hear about it makes me want to cry, a little, and this illustrates that pretty perfectly.

I care so much about Oracle, and about Cassandra Cain. Babs as Batgirl breaks my heart.

This sounds like exactly what I'm going through.


I get frustrated by this grounded take on the DCU. I liked Metropolis as the City of Tomorrow, complete with flying cars, and I have a hard time buying that basic insurance doesn't cover magic, nanites, and purple healing rays.

Not to diminish the believability of completely fantastic worlds, since good writers can pull it off, and even decent writers can kinda pull it off, but I like having my worlds be something I can actually imagine being real.


Modernize.

While its true librarians still exist, its more of a niche job than it used to be. Instead I'd seek some equivalent. Something slightly different but with similar emphasis on information.

Heck, here's the way to continue the Oracle aspect, even if indirectly if Oracle never existed. Make Babs the Civilian an I.T. person. A computer professional. TONS of opportunity for her to worm her way into trouble with that, and of course its inherently infocentric.


See, I can call it already that if this is what happens some small vocal minority will get on about her being "unlikable". But I think that's nonsense. "Cheeky" is how I always defined Batgirl in my mind. Her one-upping Robin.

You know, I wonder if Jason Bard is on the way back. He fell by the wayside after One-Year-Later and it would be interesting to put him back in Batgirl's sphere (where he started). I say if we're getting Silver Age, then embrace it and modernize off the template. All the bitching and moaning about "regression" aside, its kind of a done deal. So roll with it.

I like this idea myself

[Stressfactor]

I was about to post that I agree with you, then the parenthetical jumped out at me. Is someone blackmailing you, demanding that you get graduate degrees or else?

No. Heh. I'm an archivist. But here's the thing -- when I decided to BE an archivist a little over ten years ago the field was a bit... torn....

Archives was such a specialized field that not many universities offered a degree in it as a stand-alone field. As such, most Archival Degrees were sub-degrees usually offered either under a History Degree program or a Library Science Degree program.

So when I got my degree I actually got it from one of the BEST Archival training programs in the US at the time. It was run by a former Director of the National Archives. But the degree was through a History Program so, technically my degree read: "Master of Arts in History with Specialization in Archives and Records Management".

And that was fine.... Ten years ago.

Since that time the field has skewed towards wanting Archivists to have their Degrees through either a Library Science program or an ALA accredited Information Sciences Program.

Even my old alma mater has moved their Archival Degree program into a stand-alone degree in Information Sciences that is ALA accredited... but it doesn't apply retroactively to me. My Master's was still in History.

So, in order to stay employable in my field I've gotten a SECOND Master's degree in Library Science.

My MLS program really didn't have much in the way of Archival component but that doesn't matter because I got my archival training in my FIRST Master's AND I've got years of work experience now. The MLS, therefore, is just kind of a degree because I needed to have the formality of having the degree.

That's why I say "Against My Will". Five years ago, when I was job hunting, I got a LOT of doors slammed in my face NOT because I didn't have work experience and NOT because I wasn't qualified but simply because I had the wrong KIND of degree.

I got into a good job eventually but I didn't want to EVER be in that situation again... so I got the second degree.

Now, the next time I go job hunting they can't slam doors in my face just because I have the wrong kind of degree.

[SidekicksRevenge]

Scott Snyder has said we're not talking magic-y reboot for Babs, but there will be an in-story reason for her to be un-wheelchaired/re-batgirled.

This is still going to be an incredibly difficult sell for me.

[The Xenos]

This damn comic made me kinda gasp in horror:

http://www.the-gutters.com/comic/147-ron-chan

As if I wasn't already choked up over all this...