PDA

View Full Version : Did Brubaker ever explain in the comics why Bucky-Cap uses a German/Nazi pistol?



Doc Randy
05-18-2011, 01:45 PM
Why does he use a Luger?

Why not something you would expect from captain America like a Colt 1911?

I don't remember the explanation.

Just seems funny that Captain America would prefer a Nazi weapon.

Slewo.O
05-18-2011, 01:46 PM
Why does he use a Luger?

Why not something you would expect from captain America like a Colt 1911?

I don't remember the explanation.

Maybe he picked it up off a dead Nazi? :p

NickT
05-18-2011, 01:49 PM
Isn't it like Fury's?

capntightpants
05-18-2011, 01:49 PM
Why does he use a Luger?

Why not something you would expect from captain America like a Colt 1911?

I don't remember the explanation.

Just seems funny that Captain America would prefer a Nazi weapon.

Bucky enjoys irony.

Jason California
05-18-2011, 01:57 PM
Maybe a German used it to kill one of his buddies so he decided to use it to kill other Germans, and then the Russians thought it was a good joke for whatever reasons Russians find funny and kept it with him as the Winter Soldier.

KSChris
05-18-2011, 02:00 PM
He probably just likes it a lot.

I remember that sideplot in Band of Brothers, where the one guy kept wanting to pick a Luger off a dead nazi to take back home as a souvenir.

Foolish Mortal
05-18-2011, 02:04 PM
From what I've gleaned from handbooks, Bucky's sidearm is a modified P08 Luger which he used during his years as the 'Winter Soldier'. The gun manufacturer Mauser made Luger replicas up until 2000. The first version of it was developed before World War I. So when is the time limit on it being a 'Nazi' gun?

Jef UK
05-18-2011, 02:25 PM
Also, his favorite steakhouse is Peter Luger's in Brooklyn.

Jef UK
05-18-2011, 02:27 PM
And who's he fooling with that shield?

justjeffery
05-18-2011, 02:41 PM
Its the gun Joe Chill used to kill his parents, so he uses it to remind him of where he's from and why he does what he does...

Wait, wrong character... and its not in continuity any more? Damn.

Cause he's a nazi!

No? Crud.

He got it on sale!

rogerio
05-18-2011, 02:42 PM
Where is Brubaker, btw?http://forums.comicbookresources.com/images/smilies/original/smile.gif

Spidey616
05-18-2011, 02:43 PM
Cuz it was the one he used to kill Hitler ;)

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l43hisx4Sk1qzl89so1_500.jpg

Doc Randy
05-18-2011, 02:51 PM
They need to come up with a cool story for why he has the Luger.

I've seen some draw him with a Colt .45. Some draw the Luger. I suspect there is no real reason for it other than some artist didn't know the difference and thought it looked cool.

Is it a neat intentional bit of characterization or a fun inconsistent screw up on the part of the creators?

No biggee either way. Just curious.

NickT
05-18-2011, 02:57 PM
Similar note, is there a reason for the Rocketeer being similar?

Buk Was Right
05-18-2011, 02:59 PM
Where is Brubaker, btw?http://forums.comicbookresources.com/images/smilies/original/smile.gif

He used to post here pretty regular. Not sure if it was sapping work time so he cut off or if he got Rich Johnston-ed outta here.

TheNatureRoy
05-18-2011, 03:00 PM
When operating behind enemy lines it can be a good thing to have a weapon is audibly indecipherable from the enemy's.

Or the original artist of the weapon thought it looked cool.

Or it was the first thing that popped up in Google Images when the artist searched 'pistol.'

Ryan Elliott
05-18-2011, 03:39 PM
Those guns look so cool.

majorjoe23
05-18-2011, 03:41 PM
From what I've gleaned from handbooks, Bucky's sidearm is a modified P08 Luger which he used during his years as the 'Winter Soldier'. The gun manufacturer Mauser made Luger replicas up until 2000. The first version of it was developed before World War I. So when is the time limit on it being a 'Nazi' gun?

And swastikas were around for hundreds of years before the Nazis, yet somehow it's that brief period of usage people always associate the symbol with.

Ben
05-18-2011, 03:48 PM
The bullets are made from the teeth of Nazis.

Foolish Mortal
05-18-2011, 03:49 PM
And swastikas were around for hundreds of years before the Nazis, yet somehow it's that brief period of usage people always associate the symbol with.
Thousands of years actually. A swastika-like symbol is found in ancient texts and carvings among numerous people including the Chinese, Japanese, Asian Indians, Native American tribes, and ironically, ancient Jewish tribes.

The Zevad
05-18-2011, 03:51 PM
Cuz it was the one he used to kill Hitler ;)

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l43hisx4Sk1qzl89so1_500.jpg

No he did not! Human Torch burned Hitler's first body alive. Hitler's soul/mind/essence escaped into cloned brain and eventually got put into a Hate Monger clone body and eventually got trapped in a cosmic cube by the Red Skull.

FUCKING BUCKY STOP LYING!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/chainsawmidget/DC-260-79F21A860-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/chainsawmidget/DC-260-79F21A861.jpg


Though honestly I think Bucky was just fucking around with them and joking.

Also a more condensed verion of these events from The Saga of the Human Torch...

http://www.fiawol.org.uk/Blog/MU%2010.jpg

Matt Jay
05-18-2011, 03:55 PM
Cuz it was the one he used to kill Hitler ;)

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l43hisx4Sk1qzl89so1_500.jpg

This explanation should be canon. That would be awesome.

The Zevad
05-18-2011, 04:01 PM
This explanation should be canon. That would be awesome.

I um killed Hitler..really comes off as he's fucking with the kids. Also to much evidence showing that Jim Hammond killed Hitler and we know Hitler's mind escaped into a new body thanks to Zola and eventually gets trapped in a cosmic cube thanks to the Red Skull.

Bucky has enough retcons put on him. Let Jim Hammond have his victory of killing Hitler.

Buk Was Right
05-18-2011, 04:02 PM
I um killed Hitler..really comes off as he's fucking with the kids. Also to much evidence showing that Jim Hammond killed Hitler and we know Hitler's mind escaped into a new body thanks to Zola and eventually gets trapped in a cosmic cube thanks to the Red Skull.

Bucky has enough retcons put on him. Let Jim Hammond have his victory of killing Hitler.

Was Jim Hammond the android Human Torch? No way we're giving credit for THAT big win to a damn rowbut!

The Zevad
05-18-2011, 04:04 PM
Was Jim Hammond the android Human Torch? No way we're giving credit for THAT big win to a damn rowbut!

Technically speaking he was the 1st cylon. Not a robot. Artificial organs, veins, blood. He is one of many and HE HAS A PLAN!

Also it was followed up on by Pachecho in his short F4 run.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y195/IronMaiden99/Fantastic%20Four%20Misc/FF53vol3_pg1.jpg

The Zevad
05-18-2011, 04:20 PM
THEY SAVED HITLER'S BRAIN!!!

http://www.fiawol.org.uk/Blog/MU%2011.jpg

russw
05-18-2011, 04:27 PM
What a great history lesson! I truly love the the benbo!

the last ronin
05-18-2011, 04:48 PM
It's Megatron.

The Zevad
05-18-2011, 06:28 PM
it's megatron.

:) Ha!

Andrew
05-18-2011, 07:10 PM
Bucky has enough retcons put on him. Let Jim Hammond have his victory of killing Hitler.

If you think about it, Bucky probably killed JFK in the Marvel Universe.

The Hodag
05-18-2011, 07:17 PM
And swastikas were around for hundreds of years before the Nazis, yet somehow it's that brief period of usage people always associate the symbol with.

It may have something to do with the stuff that happened during that brief period. It was pretty memorable.

jamestolliver
05-18-2011, 08:40 PM
If you think about it, Bucky probably killed JFK in the Marvel Universe.

Didn't Castro have JFK killed in the MU?

Supreme Convoy
05-18-2011, 08:46 PM
Cuz it was the one he used to kill Hitler ;)

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l43hisx4Sk1qzl89so1_500.jpg

I forgot about that moment! What issue was that again?

Phantom Eagle
05-18-2011, 10:42 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luger_P08_pistol#Usage_today

The Luger was first produced in the 1890s, well before the era of the Nazis. It is a highly accurate pistol, easy to load and operate, easy to clean, works fairly well in a dirty environment, is known to be rugged and durable, hangs well, is pleasant to shoot, is remarkably reliable, was manufactured to exacting standards, has a long service life, uses a very common bullet (7.62mm or .30 caliber), has a high rate-of-fire and good penetration, weighs less than 2 pounds, has an effective range of about 50 yards, offers less fatigue and better recoil control than some of its rivals, and the kick is deployed horizontally, in the firing plane.

Additionally, some shooters prefer the 55 degree grip angle, because the dropped wrist is thought to be steadier than the neutral angle of a pistol like a 1911 Model Colt.

So, yeah. Personal preference. Not to mention the fact that in the last 50 years, Bucky hasn't had much time to get comfortable with a new weapon, what with being kept on ice and all. Plus seeing it in his hand instantly and iconically reminds the reader of Bucky's history.

Between the muzzle velocity and caliber, I would assume it also has fairly good stopping power. From what little I could find in a brief search, the weapon is apparently easy to draw from and return to the holster, which is usually made to the same exacting standards as the weapon itself.

stevapalooza
05-18-2011, 10:59 PM
Actually the reason the swastika is such a common symbol in ancient cultures is because it's cosmological. It originally represented the movement of the big dipper in the sky throughout the year. It's still pretty popular in Buddhism.

And the Luger is just a really good gun. There's even a gag about it's power in Indiana Jones & the Last Crusade, where Indy uses a Luger to shoot through several Nazis.

And like JefUK said, Cap loved Peter Luger's steaks.

The Hodag
05-18-2011, 11:01 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luger_P08_pistol#Usage_today

The Luger was first produced in the 1890s, well before the era of the Nazis. It is a highly accurate pistol, easy to load and operate, easy to clean, works fairly well in a dirty environment, is known to be rugged and durable, hangs well, is pleasant to shoot, is remarkably reliable, was manufactured to exacting standards, has a long service life, uses a very common bullet (7.62mm), has a high rate-of-fire and good penetration, weighs less than 2 pounds, has an effective range of about 50 yards, offers less fatigue and better recoil control than some of its rivals, and the kick is deployed horizontally, in the firing plane.

Additionally, some shooters prefer the 55 degree grip angle, because the dropped wrist is thought to be steadier than the neutral angle of a pistol like a 1911 Model Colt.

So, yeah. Personal preference. Not to mention the fact that in the last 50 years, Bucky hasn't had much time to get comfortable with a new weapon, what with being kept on ice and all.

It still seems weird as hell to me, and I think I started a thread on the topic a year or two back myself. Whatever the merits of the luger as a gun, its iconography on the world stage of the 20th century was simple: Nazi gun. It's a damn weird choice for a character steeped in his own iconography: that of the American flag.

And the idea that Bucky hasn't had time to get used to a new weapon is nutty. He's a superhero, for starters, and if Wolverine can find time to be on in 80 comics, Winter Soldier can find time to go to the shooting range. It's clear he's had time to study modern technology in general, and if memory serves the Russkies thawed him out any number of times over the last few decades to kill for them, so I'm sure he's been learning new weaponry in small bursts anyway. Mostly sniper rifles, I gather, but probably other stuff incidentally.

Plus: we know he's comfortable with at least one other weapon...

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff94/Zaraxion1021/Marvel/WinterSoldier.jpg

http://shop.goldenapplecomics.com/images/products/detail/captainamerica.jpg

http://images.wikia.com/marveldatabase/images/c/c4/WINT001.jpg

Phantom Eagle
05-18-2011, 11:10 PM
I'm gonna stick with personal preference, like Bond and his Beretta.

And again, the fact that it's a Nazi gun instantly reminds us of the character's origin.

Sentimental value? It is a highly sought-after and valuable pistol.

Easy to field-strip, easy to repair, and over a hundred years of reliable service (the model, not Bucky's pistol specifically), providing it doesn't get too dirty.

Definitely a question for the next Word Balloon Brubaker interview.

The Hodag
05-18-2011, 11:28 PM
And again, the fact that it's a Nazi gun instantly reminds us of the character's origin.

Bucky's a Nazi?! :Panic:

Seriously, I don't quite know what you mean. Is it just that Bucky-Cap had his origins in World War II? If so, there are lots of other guns to choose from.

And in a lot of ways his adult origin is tied up in being a brainwashed Russian killer. Maybe he should be slinging a Kalashnikov.

Phantom Eagle
05-18-2011, 11:38 PM
In WWII, many soldiers wanted to get a Luger pistol as a souvenir of having been in the campaign, having been in combat, and as evidence that they had personally bested a Nazi soldier and taken his gun out of his cold, dead hand. The fact that Bucky would carry one refers to this. It's also the reason why there are so many of them in the US, available on the second-hand gun market.

Sorry, it was referred to in that link, it's after midnight here, and I guess I wasn't being clear.

Cheers.

The Hodag
05-18-2011, 11:46 PM
Ah, gotcha. Yes, I'm familiar with the high regard with which the luger is held, but its pregnant symbolism is probably why, to the best of my knowledge, there's never been an action hero or superhero who made it their trademark weapon prior to Bucky-Cap.

I almost imagine it has to've been brought up by Brubaker at some point before this. Right? When Alex Ross redesigned the Cap costume there was tons of preview art and interviews about the new look. Did the gun not come up during that? I'll have to go look.

I do know that Brubaker's hardly ignorant of symbolism. He's too smart not to be, and no one who works on Cap can have it far from their mind. My presumption has always been that Bucky/Cap was an idea he worked up to have a Cap he felt more aptly symbolized the modern America: well intentioned, but tarnished by dirty deals in the past and looking for redemption. And I never for a second thought it was a coincidence that Steve Rogers, a purer beacon of hope, was returned to the Marvel Universe shortly after Obama's election.

I wonder if the gun's an intentional symbol, too? A concrete visual of America's fascist tendencies, for instance?

Gonna go see if I can find any interviews from when the redesign hit...

The Hodag
05-18-2011, 11:53 PM
Hmm, turned up one fairly prosaic possibility: the 1944 Captain America movie serial had Cap wielding a luger instead of a shield. It's clear it was only loosely based on the comic, as Cap's not ever named Steve Rogers (he's district attorney Grant Gardner), but he's got a luger alright:


http://www.veoh.com/watch/v17479872Gk7q9k9Y

You get a few glimpses starting around 00:38

stevapalooza
05-19-2011, 12:38 AM
Ah, gotcha. Yes, I'm familiar with the high regard with which the luger is held, but its pregnant symbolism is probably why, to the best of my knowledge, there's never been an action hero or superhero who made it their trademark weapon prior to Bucky-Cap.

I almost imagine it has to've been brought up by Brubaker at some point before this. Right? When Alex Ross redesigned the Cap costume there was tons of preview art and interviews about the new look. Did the gun not come up during that? I'll have to go look.

I do know that Brubaker's hardly ignorant of symbolism. He's too smart not to be, and no one who works on Cap can have it far from their mind. My presumption has always been that Bucky/Cap was an idea he worked up to have a Cap he felt more aptly symbolized the modern America: well intentioned, but tarnished by dirty deals in the past and looking for redemption. And I never for a second thought it was a coincidence that Steve Rogers, a purer beacon of hope, was returned to the Marvel Universe shortly after Obama's election.

I wonder if the gun's an intentional symbol, too? A concrete visual of America's fascist tendencies, for instance?

Gonna go see if I can find any interviews from when the redesign hit...

That's possible. On the other, hand a lot of artistic choices often boil down to "I just thought it looked cool."

The Hodag
05-19-2011, 12:55 AM
That's possible. On the other, hand a lot of artistic choices often boil down to "I just thought it looked cool."

That's very true in most situations, but the redesign of Cap was a big, very public affair, as so many of Cap's changes in the last decade five or six years have been. The brought it Alex Ross to overhaul the design and did lots of press releases, and this hot on the heels of Cap's death, which had garnered national news attention. They knew people were gonna be looking at all the details.

And here's something I forget: in the first battery of images released, Bucky-Cap was most definitely NOT wearing a luger. I don't know shit about firearms beyond what I see in movies, but it looks like a .45 or something:

http://www.alexrossart.com/news/2007/capam/cap4_full.jpg

Several more images here, all with that same .45-lookin' gun:

http://www.alexrossart.com/rossreport.asp?id=363

BriRedfern
05-19-2011, 06:22 AM
It may have something to do with the stuff that happened during that brief period. It was pretty memorable.

And televised. It was the first use with wide photographic and film exposure.

Jef UK
05-19-2011, 06:28 AM
And swastikas were around for hundreds of years before the Nazis, yet somehow it's that brief period of usage people always associate the symbol with.

Somehow? Hahaha. If only it were documented!

BriRedfern
05-19-2011, 06:29 AM
That's very true in most situations, but the redesign of Cap was a big, very public affair, as so many of Cap's changes in the last decade five or six years have been. The brought it Alex Ross to overhaul the design and did lots of press releases, and this hot on the heels of Cap's death, which had garnered national news attention. They knew people were gonna be looking at all the details.

And here's something I forget: in the first battery of images released, Bucky-Cap was most definitely NOT wearing a luger. I don't know shit about firearms beyond what I see in movies, but it looks like a .45 or something:

Several more images here, all with that same .45-lookin' gun:

http://www.alexrossart.com/rossreport.asp?id=363

That knife placement would be very impractical.

Marcdachamp
05-19-2011, 08:05 AM
I've seen some draw him with a Colt .45.

I think I've seen Iron Man drawn with a Colt .45, too.

Buk Was Right
05-19-2011, 08:37 AM
I think I've seen Iron Man drawn with a Colt .45, too.

:lol:

Damian696
05-19-2011, 11:58 AM
Also, his favorite steakhouse is Peter Luger's in Brooklyn.

and his favourite wrestler is Lex Luger.

mario
05-19-2011, 12:21 PM
Lugers are way cooler than Colts!

Nazi's lost the war but won the battle of style!

Doc Randy
05-19-2011, 02:25 PM
I almost imagine it has to've been brought up by Brubaker at some point before this. Right? When Alex Ross redesigned the Cap costume there was tons of preview art and interviews about the new look. Did the gun not come up during that? I'll have to go look..

Alex Ross and Epting drew him with a Colt 1911... which makes sense because it is about as iconic as an American pistol as you can get. Most of the early images had him with the Colt.

http://images.comicbookresources.com/previews/marvelcomics/captainamerica/034/34SteveEptingCove.jpg

http://i.annihil.us/u/prod/marvel/i/mg/3/20/4be807a638410.jpg


Captain America should have an American gun, damn it!

If he had captured a Nazi shield as a war trophy, he wouldn't be running around with a shield painted with a swastika. Similarly, just because he may have captured a Luger or even know how to use one, doesn't mean the fighting symbol of America would choose to keep and wield a Nazi weapon.

And he eats apple pie! And loves baseball! USA! USA! USA!

Slewo.O
05-19-2011, 02:27 PM
Why would a Nazi use a shield?

The Hodag
05-19-2011, 02:29 PM
Why would a Nazi use a shield?

They loved that Norse mythology/Aryan crossover shit.

mikeandzod87
05-19-2011, 02:31 PM
They loved that Norse mythology/Aryan crossover shit.

Like in Thor: Vikings? Where Thor teams up with (among others) a Lufftwaffa pilot? Oh, and Dr. strange is a drunk

NickT
05-19-2011, 02:33 PM
and his favourite wrestler is Lex Luger.
Which is odd, as he's more of a DC guy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfCKETmbozA

Daniel K.
05-19-2011, 07:25 PM
Which is odd, as he's more of a DC guy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfCKETmbozA


...

:lol:

The Zevad
05-19-2011, 07:33 PM
Which is odd, as he's more of a DC guy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfCKETmbozA

I remember watching that episode and annoyed Luger was on the show. Awww memories. :lol:

russw
05-19-2011, 09:03 PM
right. now that I think about it, the images I recall seeing of the Buckey's gun that reminded me of a german lugar didn't bother me because they clearly were not a lugar.

I demand to see the evidence that supports the claim that Bucky is using a German/Nazi pistol

The Hodag
05-19-2011, 09:28 PM
right. now that I think about it, the images I recall seeing of the Buckey's gun that reminded me of a german lugar didn't bother me because they clearly were not a lugar.

I demand to see the evidence that supports the claim that Bucky is using a German/Nazi pistol

I just went cover browsing at Mile High's website and was surprised to see some fairly recent stuff that looked like Cap sporting a Colt 1911, buuuuuut...

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/14467255483.36.GIF

That looks fairly luger-ish.

http://drainthebanks.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/luger1.png

Was it just part if a single storyline or two? Did Dr. Faustus there make him get his Razi on?

Jonathan Callan
05-20-2011, 01:10 AM
Somehow? Hahaha. If only it were documented!

I'm giving enough credit to assume he was deliberately using sarcasm/understatement there.

majorjoe23
05-20-2011, 05:02 AM
I'm giving enough credit to assume he was deliberately using sarcasm/understatement there.

I wish sarcasm worked on the Internet.

russw
05-20-2011, 06:22 AM
I just went cover browsing at Mile High's website and was surprised to see some fairly recent stuff that looked like Cap sporting a Colt 1911, buuuuuut...

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/14467255483.36.GIF

That looks fairly luger-ish.

http://drainthebanks.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/luger1.png

Was it just part if a single storyline or two? Did Dr. Faustus there make him get his Razi on?

You got me there. That definitely looks like a lugar

Ben
05-20-2011, 07:28 AM
I wish sarcasm worked on the Internet.It works. Half the fun of sarcasm is people not getting it.

Jonathan Callan
05-20-2011, 02:36 PM
It works. Half the fun of sarcasm is people not getting it.

You would think that.