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View Full Version : Should I buy Flashpoint?



brettc1
05-11-2011, 01:17 PM
Seeing as I am not keen on seeing Wonder Woman and the Amazons rampaging through yet another western captital. How does this stack up against Fear Itself?

Yeah, I know its an Elseworld story. That's all I have read in Wonder Woman for almost a year now. :bored:

Jason California
05-11-2011, 02:08 PM
yes.

Keith P.
05-11-2011, 02:16 PM
yes.

He didn't say "fleshlight"!!!

t.c.johnson
05-11-2011, 02:17 PM
You should buy fleshlight too.

FanboyStranger
05-11-2011, 02:34 PM
The only thing I'm really interested in from Flashpoint is Secret Seven. Pete Milligan writing Shade again with George Perez art. That's a dream project.

Not really interested in Fear Itself, either.

Personamanx
05-11-2011, 02:51 PM
After reading a few scans... I might. So yeah, go ahead if you wanna.

saintsaucey
05-11-2011, 02:58 PM
I'm thinking of getting Deadman and the Flying Graysons

KirbyKrackle
05-11-2011, 03:02 PM
I say yes. The main mini is only five issues and while the first issue is a bit exposition heavy, Since it is introducing a whole new altered timeline, It shows alot of interesting potential. Plus it has a very interesting surprise at the end. I say go for it. Also, I would recommend the secret seven and batman flashpoint minis coming out. They look like the best ones.

Slewo.O
05-11-2011, 03:12 PM
I say yes. The main mini is only five issues and while the first issue is a bit exposition heavy, Since it is introducing a whole new altered timeline, It shows alot of interesting potential. Plus it has a very interesting surprise at the end. I say go for it. Also, I would recommend the secret seven and batman flashpoint minis coming out. They look like the best ones.

Don't forget Project Superman. :)

Spiffy
05-11-2011, 03:19 PM
Ho hum. Evil out of control Amazons. Been there, done that, hated it last time, don't expect any different this time.

RobStaeger
05-11-2011, 03:19 PM
I'm planning on buying it and following the creative teams I like and threads that intrigue me. Definitely Batman is on that list.

Spiffy
05-11-2011, 03:20 PM
Its a weirdly phrased question if its "should I buy Flashpoint" but the alternative is "Fear Itself is a better value". The lack of a "I don't want to pay for either of them" choice? Makes it a pretty invalid poll.

Corrina
05-11-2011, 03:21 PM
I saw the previews and thought "I see, we're going to play let's change around a whole bunch of characters so long-time readers can spot the easter eggs." All the dialogue I saw was all expository intros.

I didn't see any kind of compelling character or plot that would draw me into the story. It was "see, this is how this character is all CHANGED. It's cool, right?"

I suppose people are having fun with it. But if I'm going to drop money on a big event I need a lot more than that.

I might check out some of the individual mini-series, if I hear good things. And if it's really good, I'm sure it will be all collected in a trade down the line.

Aiguille
05-11-2011, 04:24 PM
All the dialogue I saw was all expository intros.

I didn't see any kind of compelling character or plot that would draw me into the story. It was "see, this is how this character is all CHANGED. It's cool, right?"

Agreed, I mean, all those dialogue balloons seemed like missed opportunities for narration boxes atop panels depicting what they were talking about, and Barry's wakeup seemed really decompressed. For a time-traveller he's a bit slow on the uptake, no? Really the only thing that caught my eye was a character turned gestalt.

Patrick Gerard
05-11-2011, 05:06 PM
I hope this series both shakes Barry up a little and gets the Flash FAMILY back in the spotlight.

Hal went through a massive amount of refining and updating after his Rebirth. I think it was a bigger shift since the Corps came back with him.

Barry's book looks, to me, like just another book starring The Flash, which has never really been shook up to the extent the GL books have, aside from the Speed Force stuff and occasional villain spotlights.

I'd like to see Barry do something big, something that makes his return seem like a big deal to the world... and I'd also like to see his costume get a subtle tweak or two. I think it made a big difference for Hal coming back that, in spite of a classic costume, there's that visual cue that he's in another era of his life.

I feel like Silver Age Hal and Modern Hal are different. I don't feel that way with Barry, aside from him being kinda moody.

brettc1
05-11-2011, 05:29 PM
Its a weirdly phrased question if its "should I buy Flashpoint" but the alternative is "Fear Itself is a better value". The lack of a "I don't want to pay for either of them" choice? Makes it a pretty invalid poll.

No doubt why you are graced with language :wink:

stealthwise
05-11-2011, 06:39 PM
There's no "neither" option. Whatever floats your boat, man.

Chris Jones
05-11-2011, 06:50 PM
The first issue drops some really tantalizing stuff and all signs point to the rest of it just being a bunch of fun, so I'd say go for Flashpoint, definitely.

dEnny!
05-13-2011, 05:47 PM
A part of me wants to get them all, a part of me worries, "will I be able to read it all?" And another part says this could be a lot of fun like Age of Apocalypse...or it could suck. But there are some great creative teams like Azz/Risso on Batman and Milligan/Perez on Secret Seven.

Kingsmythe
05-13-2011, 06:01 PM
I'm passing on both Age of Apoco-Flash and Fear the Prices. I have a fairly well developed case of event fatigue, and neither of them are really interesting me. I leafed through Flashpoint 1 on the stands and put it back. The previews were enough for me Fear.

When someone manages to do an "event" that really grabs me, I'll be back in. But of late, neither company has. Maybe why I'm getting so much more into Dynnamite's Green Hornet and such- great hero tales that actually take place in the character's own book.

Slewo.O
05-13-2011, 06:02 PM
I'm passing on both Age of Apoco-Flash and Fear the Prices. I have a fairly well developed case of event fatigue, and neither of them are really interesting me. I leafed through Flashpoint 1 on the stands and put it back. The previews were enough for me Fear.

When someone manages to do an "event" that really grabs me, I'll be back in. But of late, neither company has. Maybe why I'm getting so much more into Dynnamite's Green Hornet and such- great hero tales that actually take place in the character's own book.

:roll:

Flashpoint is basically the Flash on hiatus...

Jason California
05-13-2011, 06:07 PM
He didn't say "fleshlight"!!!

oh.

I am not sure then.

Corrina
05-13-2011, 06:07 PM
I finally read the whole thing in the comic shop today. (I did buy a bunch of other books.) On the whole, it reminded me strongly of an arc Johns wrote some years back in JSA when Degaton took over the world. That's the arc where the new Crimson Avenger was introduced. It was another one of those alternate realities that certain actions had caused. On the whole, I liked that better. :)

It's really full of continuity porn, that's for sure. Definitely not new-reader friendly but, then, it wasn't designed to be.

Some of the minis look interesting, though I wish the WW one didn't feature yet another version of bloodthirsty Amazons. Doesn't anyone ever want to write about an alternate reality with a bunch of naked Amazons running around inviting people to orgies and getting the whole world to practice naked, free love in whatever form they desire? Is the whole "let's have the Amazons as killing everyone" really more fun to write or read?

Because I would really have fun writing or reading the whole naked, free love thing.

Kingsmythe
05-13-2011, 06:12 PM
Some of the minis look interesting, though I wish the WW one didn't feature yet another version of bloodthirsty Amazons. Doesn't anyone ever want to write about an alternate reality with a bunch of naked Amazons running around inviting people to orgies and getting the whole world to practice naked, free love in whatever form they desire? Is the whole "let's have the Amazons as killing everyone" really more fun to write or read?

Because I would really have fun writing or reading the whole naked, free love thing.

Ya know, I never considered that take on Amazons, Corrina, but now you've brought it up, I'd certainly read it. Maybe your next project after you finish Noir for that contest you posted about? ;)

NickT
05-13-2011, 06:15 PM
The first issue was an odd one to me, didn't really feel like the first issue of a big story. Not bad though and with nice art, so will probably stick around for #2.



Personally I preferred FI if I had to read one or the other, but I'd reccomend both.

Dreg
05-14-2011, 03:51 PM
It's really full of continuity porn, that's for sure. Definitely not new-reader friendly but, then, it wasn't designed to be.

Johns said it was the most accessible and new-reader-friendly story he's ever written.

Corrina
05-14-2011, 04:10 PM
Johns said it was the most accessible and new-reader-friendly story he's ever written.

Really? because that whole scene with all the gathered heroes seemed completely designed to let readers have fun guessing who was the altered version of what hero and get a chance to have fun with the altered version. It doesn't really have much story impact without that little guessing game because they gathered, basically intro'd themselves, and then went their separate ways after Batman wouldn't help them. And the reveal at the end really only has impact if you're a comics reader used to having the other person in the Batsuit.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing, a lot of readers like this and I even had a little fun with the different versions but, yeah, I definitely see it as continuity porn.

Corrina
05-14-2011, 04:11 PM
Ya know, I never considered that take on Amazons, Corrina, but now you've brought it up, I'd certainly read it. Maybe your next project after you finish Noir for that contest you posted about? ;)

Hah! :)

Hey, it would go back to the roots of the DC Amazons. Loving bondage and all that...

Tobias M
05-15-2011, 12:55 AM
Hah! :)

Hey, it would go back to the roots of the DC Amazons. Loving bondage and all that...

That's it though. We keep getting the idea of warlike Amazons because no one wants to treat Marston's idea that maybe they are superior? Sexual utopia and all that. I'd bloody read it.

Patrick Gerard
05-15-2011, 01:18 AM
I think blood is a lot more likely to get approved than sex in most American entertainment, particularly given which one is more taboo with kids.

That said, I think the Amazons are wrong because they're tied to gods and mythology. It's contrary to progress to make ancient peoples right.

Christian, Jewish, and Muslim sects have spent thousands of years crushing other gods. At this point, I think the progress would be humans crushing those gods as well or sticking to them, not reverting back or honoring old gods or archaic religions. Or at least discovering a new god.

Personally, I think WW would do a lot better if they started by making her more than a god. The whole idea of a super-hero having gods as a patron kinda annoys me. Super-heroes should make ancient gods obsolete or what's the point in having them?

Eliminate the Olympians and reduce them to a small, superfluous part of what makesw a modern Themyscria tick and I think you'll see a lot less of them being wrong.

But as long as they wear ancient costumes and ancient gods, they can't be very right.

Tobias M
05-15-2011, 01:31 AM
Once again though, that emphasis on the ancient cultures is a more recent revamp of the Wondy backstory. Yes they were wearing shifts and carried spears in the original books etc, but they also had invisible planes and purple ray tech and if anything, were maintaining the ancient greek aesthetic out of what seemed to be a fondness for the look of it more than anything else.

zemo
05-15-2011, 01:44 AM
I finally read the whole thing in the comic shop today. (I did buy a bunch of other books.) On the whole, it reminded me strongly of an arc Johns wrote some years back in JSA when Degaton took over the world. That's the arc where the new Crimson Avenger was introduced. It was another one of those alternate realities that certain actions had caused. On the whole, I liked that better. :)

It's really full of continuity porn, that's for sure. Definitely not new-reader friendly but, then, it wasn't designed to be.

Some of the minis look interesting, though I wish the WW one didn't feature yet another version of bloodthirsty Amazons. Doesn't anyone ever want to write about an alternate reality with a bunch of naked Amazons running around inviting people to orgies and getting the whole world to practice naked, free love in whatever form they desire? Is the whole "let's have the Amazons as killing everyone" really more fun to write or read?

Because I would really have fun writing or reading the whole naked, free love thing.

Oh please, can we not do that? I am sick and tired of all this titilation thrown at me from every direction. Can't we, as a human society, maybe put less emphasis on sex? I'd even prefer the bloodthirsty Amazons. Humans are dicks to each other, that is at least realistic. But all the sex and innuendos are just a shortcut for advertisement and bad writers to get to the consumers' brains. ><

Tobias M
05-15-2011, 01:52 AM
Oh please, can we not do that? I am sick and tired of all this titilation thrown at me from every direction. Can't we, as a human society, maybe put less emphasis on sex? I'd even prefer the bloodthirsty Amazons. Humans are dicks to each other, that is at least realistic. But all the sex and innuendos are just a shortcut for advertisement and bad writers to get to the consumers' brains. ><

That's two different things. You're talking about a leering, snide form of hidden sexuality 'nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more' of Eric Idle in that Monty Python sketch. As opposed to what Corrina is saying, just healthy open and most importantly, guiltless sex.

Which I can't recall seeing anywhere recently. Love, not fucking, to coin a phrase.

Patrick Gerard
05-15-2011, 03:18 AM
That's two different things. You're talking about a leering, snide form of hidden sexuality 'nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more' of Eric Idle in that Monty Python sketch. As opposed to what Corrina is saying, just healthy open and most importantly, guiltless sex.

Which I can't recall seeing anywhere recently. Love, not fucking, to coin a phrase.

I don't think you'd see a publisher tackle something that radical outside a Vertigo book...

And everything interesting in the world is some form of suffering. Certainly, the gory stuff and emo brooding get old but even anxiety, comedy, nostalgic Thanksgiving Dinners -- all suffering.

If it doesn't hurt, why do it?

Tobias M
05-15-2011, 03:59 AM
I await with bated breath the twelve issue mini-series where Batman has to pass a gallstone.

Corrina
05-15-2011, 06:28 AM
I don't think you'd see a publisher tackle something that radical outside a Vertigo book...

And everything interesting in the world is some form of suffering. Certainly, the gory stuff and emo brooding get old but even anxiety, comedy, nostalgic Thanksgiving Dinners -- all suffering.

If it doesn't hurt, why do it?

I sincerely doubt DC is about to hand me an Amazon book, Vertigo or otherwise.

But the issue was why the Amazons go violent in all these alternate histories or even in our history when their culture isn't related to that. It would be much more interesting to flip that and make them openly sexual and happy about it, if a little disconcerting to the rest of the world. And you could certainly find issues with that sort of utopia. It just takes some imagination.

For once, likely most of humanity isn't wired right now to be that open about sex.

RobStaeger
05-15-2011, 08:18 AM
Really? because that whole scene with all the gathered heroes seemed completely designed to let readers have fun guessing who was the altered version of what hero and get a chance to have fun with the altered version. It doesn't really have much story impact without that little guessing game because they gathered, basically intro'd themselves, and then went their separate ways after Batman wouldn't help them. And the reveal at the end really only has impact if you're a comics reader used to having the other person in the Batsuit.


To tackle your second point first, I don't think you have to be a comic reader to recognize what happened with the Batman reveal at the end. Batman's a lot bigger than comics, and plenty of non-comics readers know his origin.

As for the first, you might be right, but I'm not certain. You and I see a guessing game, and lots of easter eggs (including a literal bunny -- yay Hoppy!), but we're steeped in decades of continuity. A new reader might recognize that that element exists, but not be distracted by the guessing game and just accept the characters at face value. That said, you're right that there's not a whole lot of point to that scene but the character introductions, but certain of them intrigue, I think, without the amalgam appeal -- the Outsider, Citizen Cold and the S!H!A!Z!A!M! kids, particularly. (Cold got a little extra intro in the crime lab, and it's his stance as public hero/secret criminal that interests me most -- which is a situation that would intrigue me just as much about an all-new character introduced in Astro City.) But it's impossible for me to say whether they'd appeal to a new reader -- just that it's not the "twist" that appeals to me.

I think it's pretty accessible to the new reader -- but it's the veterans who get to see it in 3-D.

Slewo.O
05-15-2011, 08:31 AM
I finally read the whole thing in the comic shop today. (I did buy a bunch of other books.) On the whole, it reminded me strongly of an arc Johns wrote some years back in JSA when Degaton took over the world. That's the arc where the new Crimson Avenger was introduced. It was another one of those alternate realities that certain actions had caused. On the whole, I liked that better. :)

It's really full of continuity porn, that's for sure. Definitely not new-reader friendly but, then, it wasn't designed to be.

Some of the minis look interesting, though I wish the WW one didn't feature yet another version of bloodthirsty Amazons. Doesn't anyone ever want to write about an alternate reality with a bunch of naked Amazons running around inviting people to orgies and getting the whole world to practice naked, free love in whatever form they desire? Is the whole "let's have the Amazons as killing everyone" really more fun to write or read?

Because I would really have fun writing or reading the whole naked, free love thing.
I dunno. I was able to hand Flashpoint to a bunch of people who aren't familiar with DC comics and they got along just fine. And this is coming from a person who hasn't read Johns' previous JSA arc, but so what? A lot of story points are going to get re-used, they always will. And I'm enjoying this so far.

As for the Amazons... Well considering Flashpoint is supposed to be a story about the nearing end of the world, a sex loving paradise wouldn't be conducive to that type of story now would it? I understand if you want to see a different type of flip but it just wouldn't fit too well for the motif. Plus that seems more fitting for Vertigo or someplace else to be honest.

Also as for the Batman thing. Any non-comic fan could figure it out.



To tackle your second point first, I don't think you have to be a comic reader to recognize what happened with the Batman reveal at the end. Batman's a lot bigger than comics, and plenty of non-comics readers know his origin.

As for the first, you might be right, but I'm not certain. You and I see a guessing game, and lots of easter eggs (including a literal bunny -- yay Hoppy!), but we're steeped in decades of continuity. A new reader might recognize that that element exists, but not be distracted by the guessing game and just accept the characters at face value. That said, you're right that there's not a whole lot of point to that scene but the character introductions, but certain of them intrigue, I think, without the amalgam appeal -- the Outsider, Citizen Cold and the S!H!A!Z!A!M! kids, particularly. (Cold got a little extra intro in the crime lab, and it's his stance as public hero/secret criminal that interests me most -- which is a situation that would intrigue me just as much about an all-new character introduced in Astro City.) But it's impossible for me to say whether they'd appeal to a new reader -- just that it's not the "twist" that appeals to me.

I think it's pretty accessible to the new reader -- but it's the veterans who get to see it in 3-D.
Exactly.

Corrina
05-15-2011, 08:54 AM
I think it's pretty accessible to the new reader -- but it's the veterans who get to see it in 3-D.

Maybe, except if you look at the dialogue tags in the scene, they're clearly designed to say "see, this is who we are right now, and not who we used to be."

Let's face it. The audience for these big crossovers isn't new readers. This is no different. This is to get more current readers to buy the big event, that's why it's running in so many titles.

No new reader to comics is going to run out and start buying Flashpoint, starring a character they only know vaguely from television shows and his costume, and with a premise that "hey, we've switched up the whole world!"

Can new readers understand it? Well, probably. But the whole premise is designed to grab the attention of the people inside the comic shop, not draw in new readers. Maybe they're hoping to bring over some Marvel readers or something. Or afraid if they don't do a big event, Marvel readers will load up on Fear Itself and not buy DC books.

How many non-veterans do you think are reading Flashpoint, written by a writer known for focusing on DC's past?

This is just more of the same event stuff for the same readers. Is it good to read?

Well, I didn't find it particularly interesting so far but that doesn't mean it's bad. It's nothing that screams "buy me!" to any new reader, though.

Slewo.O
05-15-2011, 08:56 AM
Maybe, except if you look at the dialogue tags in the scene, they're clearly designed to say "see, this is who we are right now, and not who we used to be."

Let's face it. The audience for these big crossovers isn't new readers. This is no different. This is to get more current readers to buy the big event, that's why it's running in so many titles.

No new reader to comics is going to run out and start buying Flashpoint, starring a character they only know vaguely from television shows and his costume, and with a premise that "hey, we've switched up the whole world!"

Can new readers understand it? Well, probably. But the whole premise is designed to grab the attention of the people inside the comic shop, not draw in new readers. Maybe they're hoping to bring over some Marvel readers or something. Or afraid if they don't do a big event, Marvel readers will load up on Fear Itself and not buy DC books.

How many non-veterans do you think are reading Flashpoint, written by a writer known for focusing on DC's past?

This is just more of the same event stuff for the same readers. Is it good to read?

Well, I didn't find it particularly interesting so far but that doesn't mean it's bad. It's nothing that screams "buy me!" to any new reader, though.

I won't disagree with this.

Except that only one ongoing is tying into Flashpoint... Also releasing only one DC book, that being Flashpoint #5 on the last week of August helps.

RobStaeger
05-15-2011, 09:01 AM
Yeah, I can't disagree with that either -- I think it's accessible to new readers should they come, but I don't necessarily think it will draw them in.

Johns' rep as a creator who mines the past likely won't matter to a new reader, though -- I can't imagine a reader new to comics being familiar with Johns' previous work.

Tobias M
05-19-2011, 03:55 AM
But the obscure characters are introduced almost for the sake of them being obscure. Enchantress, Outsider etcetera.

It is so reminiscent of AoA - which if you recall did an interesting job of revamping characters from early in the X-Men's history in threatening new forms - that it seems formulaic. Also the introductory sequence with Cold and Piper had a dialogue bit between them which could basically be boiled down to 'This guy is gay, everyone got that? Ok lets move on.'

The Beast Of Yucca Flats
05-19-2011, 07:49 AM
I'll get at least the Superman & Lois Lane ones, due to the talent.

Suffering Sappho
05-19-2011, 01:17 PM
I was on the fence, but this review pretty much sealed it that I wouldn't be picking up Flashpoint anytime soon: http://toobusythinkingboutcomics.blogspot.com/2011/05/on-flashpoint-1-why-dont-more-women.html

Here's an abridged version if you don't want to read the whole thing or don't want to be too spoiled: http://dcwomenkickingass.tumblr.com/post/5575924893/2busyflashpoint

Slewo.O
05-19-2011, 01:22 PM
I was on the fence, but this review pretty much sealed it that I wouldn't be picking up Flashpoint anytime soon: http://toobusythinkingboutcomics.blogspot.com/2011/05/on-flashpoint-1-why-dont-more-women.html

Here's an abridged version if you don't want to read the whole thing or don't want to be too spoiled: http://dcwomenkickingass.tumblr.com/post/5575924893/2busyflashpoint

Is that supposed to be sexist?

Tobias M
05-19-2011, 02:32 PM
Is that supposed to be sexist?

The last thing you could accuse Colin Smith of is sexism.

Slewo.O
05-19-2011, 02:36 PM
The last thing you could accuse Colin Smith of is sexism.

That's not who I meant was being sexist... Unless you're joking?

Ryudo
05-19-2011, 03:09 PM
I was on the fence, but this review pretty much sealed it that I wouldn't be picking up Flashpoint anytime soon: http://toobusythinkingboutcomics.blogspot.com/2011/05/on-flashpoint-1-why-dont-more-women.html

His unnecessarily italicized and bolded words read like a bad combination of an Ugabooga post and Penny Arcade.

Suffering Sappho
05-19-2011, 04:31 PM
I don't understand exactly what you are asking, but if you mean do I find making the only all-woman community in the DCU out to be mass murderers and mutilators of male genitalia sexist, then yes, I find it sexist.

Slewo.O
05-19-2011, 04:33 PM
I don't understand exactly what you are asking, but if you mean do I find making the only all-woman community in the DCU out to be mass murderers and mutilators of male genitalia sexist, then yes, I find it sexist.

They also made Aquaman to be a genocidal mass-murderer so it's not like favorites are being played here...

The whole concept of Flashpoint is that everything good is twisted and dialed to 11. :?

Tobias M
05-19-2011, 04:33 PM
That's not who I meant was being sexist... Unless you're joking?

I have no idea what you meant then.

Slewo.O
05-19-2011, 04:34 PM
I have no idea what you meant then.

I was asking if the book was sexist...

Ryudo
05-19-2011, 04:40 PM
I don't understand exactly what you are asking, but if you mean do I find making the only all-woman community in the DCU out to be mass murderers and mutilators of male genitalia sexist, then yes, I find it sexist.

So is the depiction of Aquaman underwaterist?

Slewo.O
05-19-2011, 04:42 PM
So is the depiction of Aquaman underwaterist?

That's true. I mean they're taking one of the only underwater-breathing communities in the DCU and making those guys genocidal maniacs. I mean, Aquaman sunk Europe!

Ryudo
05-19-2011, 04:48 PM
That's true. I mean they're taking one of the only underwater-breathing communities in the DCU and making those guys genocidal maniacs. I mean, Aquaman sunk Europe!

Clearly, underwaterism was Johns' underlying motive with this mini-series.

Next thing you know, there will be a cover with squids and a dolphin covering up ol' Arthur's nastyparts.

Slewo.O
05-19-2011, 04:49 PM
Clearly, underwaterism was Johns' underlying motive with this mini-series.

Next thing you know, there will be a cover with squids and a dolphin covering up ol' Arthur's nastyparts.

He's already shown he's got no love for zombies either. Look at the copious amounts of Black Lanterns destroyed during Blackest Night. Geoff Johns is a machine of hatred that one.

Ryudo
05-19-2011, 04:51 PM
He's already shown he's got no love for zombies either. Look at the copious amounts of Black Lanterns destroyed during Blackest Night. Geoff Johns is a machine of hatred that one.

He also brought back Flash's mom.

Orphanist!!!

Slewo.O
05-19-2011, 04:53 PM
He also brought back Flash's mom.

Orphanist!!!

:)

Suffering Sappho
05-19-2011, 05:00 PM
They also made Aquaman to be a genocidal mass-murderer so it's not like favorites are being played here...

The whole concept of Flashpoint is that everything good is twisted and dialed to 11. :?

Except Amazons have already been portrayed that way in regular continuity. There's nothing new and different here.

Slewo.O
05-19-2011, 05:01 PM
Except Amazons have already been portrayed that way in regular continuity. There's nothing new and different here.

What? I remember reading Wonder Woman and not seeing the Amazons being violent, or being world conquering warriors who annihilated the U.K...

Suffering Sappho
05-19-2011, 05:03 PM
What? I remember reading Wonder Woman and not seeing the Amazons being violent, or being world conquering warriors who annihilated the U.K...

Amazons Attack

Slewo.O
05-19-2011, 05:04 PM
Amazons Attack

Which was shown as manipulation by Granny Goodness... And I think we can all agree was a crappy mini-series anyway.

Otherwise they're shown as being peaceful warriors.

Suffering Sappho
05-19-2011, 05:19 PM
Which was shown as manipulation by Granny Goodness... And I think we can all agree was a crappy mini-series anyway.

Otherwise they're shown as being peaceful warriors.

I'm not going to argue with you. Either you find it problematic or you don't. I do and I don't see any point in reading something that's just a repeat of "teh womenz will takes your manhoods!" all over again.

Slewo.O
05-19-2011, 05:24 PM
I'm not going to argue with you. Either you find it problematic or you don't. I do and I don't see any point in reading something that's just a repeat of "teh womenz will takes your manhoods!" all over again.

That's the thing. I can't see how it is... Its just one component in the story and I don't see how this makes the story sexist. It's like saying that making a bad guy in a book a particular skin color makes it racist against that particular sub-culture.

And the Amazons aren't the only ones shown as antagonists in the story either.

Suffering Sappho
05-19-2011, 05:38 PM
That's the thing. I can't see how it is... Its just one component in the story and I don't see how this makes the story sexist. It's like saying that making a bad guy in a book a particular skin color makes it racist against that particular sub-culture.

And the Amazons aren't the only ones shown as antagonists in the story either.

All of those questions can be answered by reading the links I posted. It's not just a coincidence that the only all-female nation in the DCU is repeatedly portrayed as out of control or somehow evil or wrong. I don't mean to say that no woman should ever be a villain, but this is a trope that is over played and offensive.

Slewo.O
05-19-2011, 05:46 PM
All of those questions can be answered by reading the links I posted. It's not just a coincidence that the only all-female nation in the DCU is repeatedly portrayed as out of control or somehow evil or wrong. I don't mean to say that no woman should ever be a villain, but this is a trope that is over played and offensive.

I really don't see how it's offensive... I gave my reasons why and I personally think the blog is reading stuff that's not there. I'll just leave it at that, thanks.

Tobias M
05-19-2011, 05:52 PM
I'm not going to argue with you. Either you find it problematic or you don't. I do and I don't see any point in reading something that's just a repeat of "teh womenz will takes your manhoods!" all over again.

I thought Smith's comparison of the castrating Amazons to actual genital castration of women by militias in the real world particularly apt. It is especially disturbing for it to be delivered in the necessarily offhand manner of a superhero comic, which immediately renders these issues as trite and at worst exploitative.

I still agree with Corrinna that I'd much prefer see a positive perspective on the Amazon culture that didn't boil down to them being either a) violent oppressors or b) themselves violently oppressed.

Ryudo
05-19-2011, 06:08 PM
I'm not going to argue with you. Either you find it problematic or you don't. I do and I don't see any point in reading something that's just a repeat of "teh womenz will takes your manhoods!" all over again.

It's ONE PANEL.

Slewo.O
05-19-2011, 06:11 PM
I thought Smith's comparison of the castrating Amazons to actual genital castration of women by militias in the real world particularly apt. It is especially disturbing for it to be delivered in the necessarily offhand manner of a superhero comic, which immediately renders these issues as trite and at worst exploitative.

I still agree with Corrinna that I'd much prefer see a positive perspective on the Amazon culture that didn't boil down to them being either a) violent oppressors or b) themselves violently oppressed. You do remember what the story is about right? I understand wanting a positive portrayal of the Amazons, but it doesn't fit the tone of this story... And unless you know about the sopranos thing you wouldn't know about the possible castration thing. I myself didn't catch it till someone pointed it out...

Suffering Sappho
05-19-2011, 06:12 PM
I thought Smith's comparison of the castrating Amazons to actual genital castration of women by militias in the real world particularly apt. It is especially disturbing for it to be delivered in the necessarily offhand manner of a superhero comic, which immediately renders these issues as trite and at worst exploitative.

I still agree with Corrinna that I'd much prefer see a positive perspective on the Amazon culture that didn't boil down to them being either a) violent oppressors or b) themselves violently oppressed.

It adds insult to injury that DC would never tackle sexual assault like this where women are the victims. The closest i've personally comes across was Circe taking over as Wonder Woman and killing rapists and men who hurt women, but of course, she was out of control and needed to be stopped etc. In Flashpoint the same thing is happening yet again.

I think the best summary of the situation is "But then "Flashpoint" # 1 is very much a book about men and the things which scare men; losing their mums, losing their wives, losing their testicles." It just speaks to how little DC considered how female readers would feel.

Slewo.O
05-19-2011, 06:16 PM
It adds insult to injury that DC would never tackle sexual assault like this where women are the victims. The closest i've personally comes across was Circe taking over as Wonder Woman and killing rapists and men who hurt women, but of course, she was out of control and needed to be stopped etc. In Flashpoint the same thing is happening yet again.

I think the best summary of the situation is "But then "Flashpoint" # 1 is very much a book about men and the things which scare men; losing their mums, losing their wives, losing their testicles." It just speaks to how little DC considered how female readers would feel.

What? You're completely ignoring the plot and what it's about. That and the other antagonists in the story who are shown as being far worse than the Amazons. No offense but you're reading into stuff that isn't there...

The themes you're attaching to Flashpoint are pretty universal things for men and women...

Suffering Sappho
05-19-2011, 06:36 PM
It's ONE PANEL.

No, it's the entire issue/major plot point. Look at all the solicits, Evil Amazon Assassins is plastered all over everything.

Slewo.O
05-19-2011, 06:39 PM
No, it's the entire issue/major plot point. Look at all the solicits, Evil Amazon Assassins is plastered all over everything.

So where exactly do Professor Zoom, Aquaman, and the Atlanteans fit into things then as antagonists?

Slewo.O
05-19-2011, 06:43 PM
Also here are books where I didn't see boo about Amazons.

Project Superman
Emperor Aquaman
Deathstroke and the Curse of the Ravager
Kid Flash
The Outsider
Citizen Cold
Frankenstein
Batman
Legion of Doom
Secret Seven
Green Lantern

That and the book is about the war between Aquaman AND the Amazons.

It's not a one person show.

Suffering Sappho
05-19-2011, 06:50 PM
Also here are books where I didn't see boo about Amazons.

Project Superman
Emperor Aquaman
Deathstroke and the Curse of the Ravager
Kid Flash
The Outsider
Citizen Cold
Frankenstein
Batman
Legion of Doom
Secret Seven
Green Lantern

That and the book is about the war between Aquaman AND the Amazons.

It's not a one person show.

Just because the Amazons aren't the only villains doesn't make their depiction any better. I don't even understand what your point is with this. The Amazons are being presented as antagonists in a very gendered way. Are any of the men on that list guilty of murdering only members of a certain gender and mutilating sex organs? If not, what's your point?

coveredinbees
05-19-2011, 06:56 PM
The Amazons have mutilated sex organs? I've only read the first Flashpoint issue. I liked it, but I'm more interested in Peter Milligan, so I'm getting that instead.

Suffering Sappho
05-19-2011, 07:12 PM
The Amazons have mutilated sex organs? I've only read the first Flashpoint issue. I liked it, but I'm more interested in Peter Milligan, so I'm getting that instead.

It's not stated explicitly, but it's implied that they castrate men on sight. Which, even if this is a fake out, is an offensive way to depict the Amazons.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-y2c2UpdfiDI/Tc-YfiiPQSI/AAAAAAAAGWw/_aNiVTER3zI/s1600/scan0101.jpg

Slewo.O
05-19-2011, 07:25 PM
No, it's the entire issue/major plot point. Look at all the solicits, Evil Amazon Assassins is plastered all over everything.

Also here are books where I didn't see boo about Amazons.

Project Superman
Emperor Aquaman
Deathstroke and the Curse of the Ravager
Kid Flash
The Outsider
Citizen Cold
Frankenstein
Batman
Legion of Doom
Secret Seven
Green Lantern

That and the book is about the war between Aquaman AND the Amazons.

It's not a one person show.




Just because the Amazons aren't the only villains doesn't make their depiction any better. I don't even understand what your point is with this. The Amazons are being presented as antagonists in a very gendered way. Are any of the men on that list guilty of murdering only members of a certain gender and mutilating sex organs? If not, what's your point?

????

That and it isn't the major plot point. It was one panel.

Slewo.O
05-19-2011, 07:27 PM
It's not stated explicitly, but it's implied that they castrate men on sight. Which, even if this is a fake out, is an offensive way to depict the Amazons.



Well considering they razed the U.K within the story, I somehow don't think being sensitive is the first thought they have... Plus the guy who said it is Captain Cold... He's not known for being very P.C.

coveredinbees
05-19-2011, 07:36 PM
lol I just read it, too.
I don't think his joke is that big of a deal. I don't like it when the Amazons are evil, either. But I think it's more about Wonder Woman being a major hero than about DC disliking them. It'd be nice of them to use a different fake country, though.

Slewo.O
05-19-2011, 07:38 PM
Part of what bothers me is that you keep consistently ignoring whenever I or someone else brings up the fact that the Amazon's whatever they did or didn't do is outclassed by Aquaman sinking Europe...

You either are ignoring that or forgot... Which would be remedied by reading the actual book, instead of reading it secondhand on a blog that isn't showing all the components of the story.

I could understand if you got mad about that in Wonder Woman or something but that isn't the theme here. What you're ignoring or forgetting here is that this isn't the type of story to showcase Amazons who do no wrong. The whole idea is that the world is changed and twisted and the Amazons are only one part of that. You're focusing so much on the evil amazons crap so much that you're missing the wider picture.

I'm not trying or intending to be anti-feminist here but you're seeing stuff that isn't there, and expecting a square peg in a round hole.

Slewo.O
05-19-2011, 07:40 PM
lol I just read it, too.
I don't think his joke is that big of a deal. I don't like it when the Amazons are evil, either. But I think it's more about Wonder Woman being a major hero than about DC disliking them. It'd be nice of them to use a different fake country, though.

:lol:

Same here. But so far I'm enjoying it a helluva lot more than Amazons Attack.

Suffering Sappho
05-19-2011, 07:47 PM
Part of what bothers me is that you keep consistently ignoring whenever I or someone else brings up the fact that the Amazon's whatever they did or didn't do is outclassed by Aquaman sinking Europe...

You either are ignoring that or forgot... Which would be remedied by reading the actual book, instead of reading it secondhand on a blog that isn't showing all the components of the story.

I could understand if you got mad about that in Wonder Woman or something but that isn't the theme here. What you're ignoring or forgetting here is that this isn't the type of story to showcase Amazons who do no wrong. The whole idea is that the world is changed and twisted and the Amazons are only one part of that. You're focusing so much on the evil amazons crap so much that you're missing the wider picture.

I'm not trying or intending to be anti-feminist here but you're seeing stuff that isn't there, and expecting a square peg in a round hole.

And what you are either ignoring or forgetting is that I don't care if one of the antagonists did something worse. It's that the all-women group is depicted as being evil using typical tropes about women in power that are harmful to women. The fact that it isn't the only thing happening in the entire book doesn't absolve it either. It is there, on the page, and even if you think it is too small to matter it is enough to not make me interested in reading it.

Slewo.O
05-19-2011, 07:53 PM
And what you are either ignoring or forgetting is that I don't care if one of the antagonists did something worse. It's that the all-women group is depicted as being evil using typical tropes about women in power that are harmful to women. The fact that it isn't the only thing happening in the entire book doesn't absolve it either. It is there, on the page, and even if you think it is too small to matter it is enough to not make me interested in reading it.

I never said it was small... And I already went over how it was an un-P.C joke by a character who's very un-P.C, we don't know whether it's truth or not. If it is I'll be first to cop to it... And honestly I don't think either of us will budge on it. :?

Chris Jones
05-19-2011, 09:02 PM
I don't think the allegations of sexism have much weight. As Slewo said, this is a universe where everything is something of a corruption of its standard DC portrayal. Thus, you get an Aquaman who uses his water-related powers to demolish instead of save, Batman as an unhinged psychopath instead of a champion for justice, and the Amazons as tyrannical murderers as opposed to noble warriors. I think it's a consistent enough series of reversals that sexism doesn't really factor into it.

brettc1
05-20-2011, 01:16 AM
I have actually read Fear Itself #1 now and ironically it may turn out that I really do buy neither.

Because if the Big Bad that seems to be revealed is who I think it is supposed to be, it will not only fly in the face of continuity but completely trash one of the best stories in the best Thor run ever!

Sigh

brettc1
05-20-2011, 01:22 AM
I don't think the allegations of sexism have much weight. As Slewo said, this is a universe where everything is something of a corruption of its standard DC portrayal. Thus, you get an Aquaman who uses his water-related powers to demolish instead of save, Batman as an unhinged psychopath instead of a champion for justice, and the Amazons as tyrannical murderers as opposed to noble warriors. I think it's a consistent enough series of reversals that sexism doesn't really factor into it.

A concern among some WW fans including myself is that apart from the last few issues of Gails run the Amazons as a group have not been shown as noble warriors for some time. Quite the opposite, in fact - Amazons as bloodstained kill-bots with serious issues with other races has been the prevalent depiction for years.

Even during Rucka's run we saw Amazons who blasted apart OMACS and killed the innocent civilians inside in the process, and who showed visible scorn and derision of the world outside Themyscira.

And then of course there was the last crossover titled where the Amazons featured prominently.... :bored:

Tobias M
05-20-2011, 04:40 AM
The critical reactions to the negative portrayal of the Amazons in this thread do not stem from some agenda. It is simply that this is a story trope that has been done to death and should be put to bed.

Tobias M
05-20-2011, 08:24 AM
Also this -

http://www.tasteslikecomics.com/2011/05/mapping-flashpoint/

Suffering Sappho
05-20-2011, 08:36 AM
Also this -

http://www.tasteslikecomics.com/2011/05/mapping-flashpoint/

They seriously wrote "Africa- Ape Controlled" on a map and saw no possibility that it was offensive? DC really needs to hire somebody whose only job is to check their work for this stuff.

Thequeerjock
05-20-2011, 08:40 AM
I'm getting World of Flashpoint, Batman, Lois Lane, and Secret Seven. No interest in Barry Allen or most of the other stuff. But World of Flashpoint stars Traci 13, and I'm not about to pass up on one of the few women of color in DC getting her own story!

Tobias M
05-20-2011, 08:54 AM
They seriously wrote "Africa- Ape Controlled" on a map and saw no possibility that it was offensive? DC really needs to hire somebody whose only job is to check their work for this stuff.

It would be prudent alright.

Hugin
05-20-2011, 09:14 AM
They seriously wrote "Africa- Ape Controlled" on a map and saw no possibility that it was offensive? DC really needs to hire somebody whose only job is to check their work for this stuff.It's probably being run by Gorilla City, which would make sense and fit with the "Every society is Evil" thing they have going with the Amazons and Atlanteans.

Chris Jones
05-20-2011, 09:32 AM
It's probably being run by Gorilla City, which would make sense and fit with the "Every society is Evil" thing they have going with the Amazons and Atlanteans.

That said, I can see how people who don't have much familiarity with the DCU would look at that and be like http://static.funnyjunk.com/pictures/what_the_fuck3.jpg

But if you're going to go with the evil super-societies thing then yeah, it makes sense that Gorilla City would take over Africa. Plus, Gorilla City! Haven't seen that place in a while, I'm juiced.

Slewo.O
05-20-2011, 09:34 AM
I have actually read Fear Itself #1 now and ironically it may turn out that I really do buy neither.

Because if the Big Bad that seems to be revealed is who I think it is supposed to be, it will not only fly in the face of continuity but completely trash one of the best stories in the best Thor run ever!

Sigh
what Thor story?



They seriously wrote "Africa- Ape Controlled" on a map and saw no possibility that it was offensive? DC really needs to hire somebody whose only job is to check their work for this stuff.

Are you for real? :crazy:

It's talking about gorilla city. DC can't just not put something on the possibility that it might offend someone somewhere.

Tobias M
05-20-2011, 10:23 AM
Perfect opportunity for Ghost Lion to go kick some intelligent super-gorilla arse.

Then he could hop across the water and arm wrestle Black Adam.

Slewo.O
05-20-2011, 10:23 AM
Perfect opportunity for Ghost Lion to go kick some intelligent super-gorilla arse.

Then he could hop across the water and arm wrestle Black Adam.

Who is Ghost Lion? For some reason I was thinking of Space Ghost. :scared:

Corrina
05-20-2011, 10:27 AM
All of those questions can be answered by reading the links I posted. It's not just a coincidence that the only all-female nation in the DCU is repeatedly portrayed as out of control or somehow evil or wrong. I don't mean to say that no woman should ever be a villain, but this is a trope that is over played and offensive.

I have to agree, Slew, did you read the links? It's not much point debating the article if you didn't read all the way through the original one which did address a number of your questions.

As for me, I thought this line summed out that review nicely:
" But then "Flashpoint" # 1 is very much a book about men and the things which scare men; losing their mums, losing their wives, losing their testicles. All the lead characters of this crossover so far are men, and the world is portrayed exclusively from the perspective of a profoundly traditional male point-of-view."

Chris Jones
05-20-2011, 10:29 AM
I have to agree, Slew, did you read the links? It's not much point debating the article if you didn't read all the way through the original one which did address a number of your questions.

As for me, I thought this line summed out that review nicely:
" But then "Flashpoint" # 1 is very much a book about men and the things which scare men; losing their mums, losing their wives, losing their testicles. All the lead characters of this crossover so far are men, and the world is portrayed exclusively from the perspective of a profoundly traditional male point-of-view."

Bolded for emphasis. There has been one chapter.

Tobias M
05-20-2011, 10:30 AM
Who is Ghost Lion? For some reason I was thinking of Space Ghost. :scared:

He is so much more cooler than Space Ghost! W00T and such and such.

....Gail, are you reading this? [blinks in a kittenish manner]

Corrina
05-20-2011, 10:30 AM
It's probably being run by Gorilla City, which would make sense and fit with the "Every society is Evil" thing they have going with the Amazons and Atlanteans.

Wow, looking at that map, whoever plotted it is really going for the easiest point from A to B, aren't they?

Tobias M
05-20-2011, 10:31 AM
Bolded for emphasis. There has been one chapter.

Which folks are responding to.

Slewo.O
05-20-2011, 10:31 AM
I have to agree, Slew, did you read the links? It's not much point debating the article if you didn't read all the way through the original one which did address a number of your questions.

As for me, I thought this line summed out that review nicely:
" But then "Flashpoint" # 1 is very much a book about men and the things which scare men; losing their mums, losing their wives, losing their testicles. All the lead characters of this crossover so far are men, and the world is portrayed exclusively from the perspective of a profoundly traditional male point-of-view."

I did read the links yes. But I don't see how that informs the idea of it being sexist... The amazon thing is only one component. It's not the main focus of the story. And I say the themes you quoted are pretty universal... And the testicle thing, I explained several times why I don't think it's a big deal...

That and the whole idea of the book is that the DCU is twisted on it's usual portrayal. I've stated this repeatedly and I don't know how to explain it any further than that.

Slewo.O
05-20-2011, 10:32 AM
Wow, looking at that map, whoever plotted it is really going for the easiest point from A to B, aren't they?

What do you mean?

Corrina
05-20-2011, 10:33 AM
Bolded for emphasis. There has been one chapter.

One chapter that is supposed to get me excited about the book, to maybe read it. Given how few female characters even have LINES in the first one, I can pass judgment on a first chapter if I like.

As they say, begin as you mean to go on. In other words, the first chapter of a story is a promise. This is what I'm being promised. Why should I not judge it?

Chris Jones
05-20-2011, 10:35 AM
Which folks are responding to.

And the response seems to be that Flashpoint is a series where women are portrayed as being horrible and ridiculous.

After one chapter.

Slewo.O
05-20-2011, 10:35 AM
One chapter that is supposed to get me excited about the book, to maybe read it. Given how few female characters even have LINES in the first one, I can pass judgment on a first chapter if I like.

As they say, begin as you mean to go on. In other words, the first chapter of a story is a promise. This is what I'm being promised. Why should I not judge it?

Nora Allen, Element Woman, and Enchantress right? I will agree that there are few in the first issue, but given the book's focus I'm sure more will appear.

That and there's several minis focusing on female characters. There's hardly a vacuum going on here.

Chris Jones
05-20-2011, 10:40 AM
One chapter that is supposed to get me excited about the book, to maybe read it. Given how few female characters even have LINES in the first one, I can pass judgment on a first chapter if I like.

As they say, begin as you mean to go on. In other words, the first chapter of a story is a promise. This is what I'm being promised. Why should I not judge it?

This book is going to have an entire series about Lois Lane leading a resistance against the Amazons and Atlanteans. I kind of doubt that the message Flashpoint is trying to get across is "women are stupid/worthless/horrible."

My problem isn't that people are passing judgement on the first chapter, it's that they seem to be passing judgement on the entire series BECAUSE OF the first chapter.

Tobias M
05-20-2011, 10:46 AM
And the response seems to be that Flashpoint is a series where women are portrayed as being horrible and ridiculous.

After one chapter.

Well they're certainly not winsome and delightful. Where is that book....wait, no, this is very serial (http://youtu.be/a9wmczxnT3c)stuff.

Oh ok then.

(psst, repeatedly telling people their opinion is wrong is a bit on the nose - it's a response, an emotional one, for reasons clearly outlined. If folks don't buy Flashpoint, well it doesn't really matter. After all it's only a comic book)

Slewo.O
05-20-2011, 10:49 AM
This book is going to have an entire series about Lois Lane leading a resistance against the Amazons and Atlanteans. I kind of doubt that the message Flashpoint is trying to get across is "women are stupid/worthless/horrible."

My problem isn't that people are passing judgement on the first chapter, it's that they seem to be passing judgement on the entire series BECAUSE OF the first chapter.

Not even one chapter... Just one panel.

Nothing wrong with judging the first issue, but one-off color joke by a character who's SUPPOSED to be the opposite of okay does not define the series view.

Slewo.O
05-20-2011, 10:50 AM
Well they're certainly not winsome and delightful. Where is that book....wait, no, this is very serial (http://youtu.be/a9wmczxnT3c)stuff.

Oh ok then.

(psst, repeatedly telling people their opinion is wrong is a bit on the nose - it's a response, an emotional one, for reasons clearly outlined. If folks don't buy Flashpoint, well it doesn't really matter. After all it's only a comic book)

In the end that's what we should realize. :)

Tobias M
05-20-2011, 10:55 AM
In the end that's what we should realize. :)

I see what you did there ;-)

Slewo.O
05-20-2011, 10:56 AM
I see what you did there ;-)

:scared:

RobStaeger
05-20-2011, 11:29 AM
In closing: No, you should not buy Flashpoint. I will be buying it, but you should not, because you will not enjoy it. You should buy something you will enjoy instead. Unless you think you will enjoy Flashpoint, and then by all means buy it.

But under no circumstances should you buy Fear Iteself, unless you think you will like it. I expect I would like it a lot, and yet will not be buying it, because money doesn't grow on trees, and while paper does grow on trees, paper printed with the pages of Fear Itself does not. Also, I cannot afford a tree right now, and have no place to plant it.

Chris Jones
05-20-2011, 11:40 AM
In closing: No, you should not buy Flashpoint. I will be buying it, but you should not, because you will not enjoy it. You should buy something you will enjoy instead. Unless you think you will enjoy Flashpoint, and then by all means buy it.

But under no circumstances should you buy Fear Iteself, unless you think you will like it. I expect I would like it a lot, and yet will not be buying it, because money doesn't grow on trees, and while paper does grow on trees, paper printed with the pages of Fear Itself does not. Also, I cannot afford a tree right now, and have no place to plant it.
I wish I had said this :sad:

Corrina
05-20-2011, 11:51 AM
Not even one chapter... Just one panel.

Nothing wrong with judging the first issue, but one-off color joke by a character who's SUPPOSED to be the opposite of okay does not define the series view.

Um, no. The article that talked about this discussion talked about the entire issues and I've talked about the entire issue. One panel would be unfortunate but not a reason to avoid the book. It's the whole context and the entire issue, again, as that article makes clear.

Thequeerjock
05-20-2011, 01:02 PM
Another article just went up:


Things took a turn this morning when the publisher posted a new map designed by writer Rex Ogle and artist Freddie E. Williams II showing the full extent of the changes to earth in the "Flashpoint" reality. When the map was posted to Robot 6, debate soon sparked there and elsewhere on the comics internet about the appropriateness of some of its terminology. Specifically, questions as to whether referring to Africa as being "Ape-Controlled" and noting a "Capital of Asia" put the best foot forward for the story. Robot 6's Michael May has a full roundup of comments here.
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=32440

The remark about Asia reminds me of the stupid "Justice League of Africa" book Robinson proposed and the Batman of Africa Morrison just introduced in Batman Inc.

Hugin
05-20-2011, 01:09 PM
Another article just went up:


http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=32440

The remark about Asia reminds me of the stupid "Justice League of Africa" book Robinson proposed and the Batman of Africa Morrison just introduced in Batman Inc.The asia thing is odd, especially since they specifically call out other sections of Asia. Tibet, Japan, India, the Middle East, and possibly Russia are all separate. So why is there a "Capital of Asia"?

NickT
05-20-2011, 01:33 PM
I think I kindof agree with the link within that link that more than anything a lot of the stuff just kindof feels a bit unimaginative. Not neccesarily bad, but most of the stuff seems like the sortof stuff you'd expect from a story like this.

Corrina
05-20-2011, 01:36 PM
I think I kindof agree with the link within that link that more than anything a lot of the stuff just kindof feels a bit unimaginative. Not neccesarily bad, but most of the stuff seems like the sortof stuff you'd expect from a story like this.

That's what I meant by my earlier comment of the shortest distance from point A to B. It doesn't strike me as a particularly imaginative retelling. As I said earlier, I like the alternate history story in JSA where Degaton (or was it Ultra-Humanite) took over the world better than what I saw of this one.

Kevin T Brown
05-20-2011, 02:10 PM
Well, all we've seen of this elephant is its tail... I'll wait another few months before saying it's unimaginative or not. ;)

Hugin
05-20-2011, 08:32 PM
That's what I meant by my earlier comment of the shortest distance from point A to B. It doesn't strike me as a particularly imaginative retelling. As I said earlier, I like the alternate history story in JSA where Degaton (or was it Ultra-Humanite) took over the world better than what I saw of this one.I haven't read Flashpoint or that JSA story yet, but something bugs me about both of them: Without Superman, the Flash, the JLA etc being active, do they ever explain why the world isn't being ruled by Braniac, Darkseid, Black Lanterns, the Anti-Monitor, or something along those lines? There have been dozens of "The world is ending" plots in DC comics over the decades, and are we expected to believe Cyborg and Captain Cold handled them?

ayhe
05-21-2011, 04:48 PM
I suggest giving it at least a try, I read the first issue and it was pretty good!

Slewo.O
05-21-2011, 04:54 PM
I haven't read Flashpoint or that JSA story yet, but something bugs me about both of them: Without Superman, the Flash, the JLA etc being active, do they ever explain why the world isn't being ruled by Braniac, Darkseid, Black Lanterns, the Anti-Monitor, or something along those lines? There have been dozens of "The world is ending" plots in DC comics over the decades, and are we expected to believe Cyborg and Captain Cold handled them?

Just assume none of them would had any interest in Earth at all without those guys. And in this case Professor Zoom probably eliminated them as problems.

The Black Lanterns and Brainac being obvious ones.

brettc1
05-21-2011, 05:52 PM
what Thor story?

Without actually pulling out my collection, I'm thinking it was issue 355 of the [umbelievably awesome] Simonson run.

http://cdn.comixology.com/2000/ICO00/midsize/ICO001200_m.jpg

After just losing his dad in the battle with Surtur, Thor finds refuge in the house of a god called Tiwaz, who turns out to be his great-grandfather Buri.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-LaMquJ9aUNU/TcNkC-1S2TI/AAAAAAAAA3w/Y1FXaMI-R5k/s1600/thor-355-2.jpg

This was a damn kicker of an issue. Tiwaz comes across as enigmatic and wise, and refers to the fact that he was once called All-Father. In fact, he is only one of the three to be so named - himself, his son Bor [who we recently saw in Thor and Avengers Prime] and Bor's son, our very own Odin.

And since Bor is dead and Odin is accounted for, who is this guy?

http://www.herebegeeks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/FearItselfGodofFear.jpg

Because he claims to be All-Father.

Ray G.
05-21-2011, 05:54 PM
Buri's father, maybe? Can always go back one more. :)

brettc1
05-21-2011, 06:28 PM
Buri's father, maybe? Can always go back one more. :)

Not in this case. Buri was the first of the sky-gods in Norse Mythology.

Corrina
06-01-2011, 10:59 AM
I see DC is still up for whole reaching out for female readers thing with Flashpoint.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lm4fmchFbq1qbujox.jpg

The above was sarcasm, btw.

KirbyKrackle
06-01-2011, 11:09 AM
I see DC is still up for whole reaching out for female readers thing with Flashpoint.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lm4fmchFbq1qbujox.jpg

The above was sarcasm, btw.

It doesn't even happen in the issue, she just ripped meras spine out. Nah I'm just kidding. Also, didn't george perez draw that?

Corrina
06-01-2011, 11:12 AM
It doesn't matter if it happens or not or that it won't stick. I'm way past the point of being annoyed that characters get killed. And I don't care who drew it.

It's the image itself. It bothers me. If DC was trying to find an image that said "go away, female readers," they couldn't have done better.

ETA: Oh, she rips her spine out. That's so much better.

Shurato2099
06-01-2011, 11:15 AM
Oh, come now! SURE they could! It could've been Mera impaled on Deathstroke's big ... manly ... sword.

Corrina
06-01-2011, 11:49 AM
They've done that already. :) Boooring---time for spines pulled out headless stuff!

Suffering Sappho
06-01-2011, 11:51 AM
I see DC is still up for whole reaching out for female readers thing with Flashpoint.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lm4fmchFbq1qbujox.jpg

The above was sarcasm, btw.

Gee, remember when that Aquaman cover came out and everyone told the women to shut up because it was obviously a fake out and Mera would be just fine. . . good times, goooooooood times.

Corrina
06-01-2011, 11:56 AM
Speaking of swords, I was watching an old Batman Beyond episode with the Justice League and Barda was there with her mega rod and I snickered because Gail has forever ruined the Might Mega-Rod for me.

Tobias M
06-01-2011, 01:30 PM
That is pretty horrific.


It doesn't matter if it happens or not or that it won't stick. I'm way past the point of being annoyed that characters get killed. And I don't care who drew it.

It's the image itself. It bothers me. If DC was trying to find an image that said "go away, female readers," they couldn't have done better.

ETA: Oh, she rips her spine out. That's so much better.

KirbyKrackle
06-01-2011, 01:47 PM
I was joking about the spine ripping thing.

stealthwise
06-01-2011, 01:55 PM
I see DC is still up for whole reaching out for female readers thing with Flashpoint.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lm4fmchFbq1qbujox.jpg

The above was sarcasm, btw.

Wow, for years now I've been arguing that the cover of a comic doesn't matter because the orders are pre-determined months in advance and because people add things to their pull list, etc, so the odds of drawing in a new reader based on the virtue of a striking cover are slim, but man, this is like, Negative appeal on this baby right there.

Disgusting.

Spiffy
06-01-2011, 05:28 PM
Based on the first two issues? Hell no, don't waste your money.

Its awful. Honestly, its just plain AWFUL.

And news to me, bad news, was how long this has apparently been planned. The FINAL concept art was in the back of Issue 2, and it was dated July 2010 (meaning it was probably already anywhere from 3 to 6 months down the pike almost a full year ago). So THAT long to come up with THIS crap? Amazing.

Slewo.O
06-01-2011, 05:35 PM
Based on the first two issues? Hell no, don't waste your money.

Its awful. Honestly, its just plain AWFUL.

And news to me, bad news, was how long this has apparently been planned. The FINAL concept art was in the back of Issue 2, and it was dated July 2010 (meaning it was probably already anywhere from 3 to 6 months down the pike almost a full year ago). So THAT long to come up with THIS crap? Amazing.

I'm going to have to disagree with this... Completely. Flashpoint #2 was short but it sure as hell was worth the read.

Slewo.O
06-01-2011, 05:37 PM
I see DC is still up for whole reaching out for female readers thing with Flashpoint.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lm4fmchFbq1qbujox.jpg

The above was sarcasm, btw.

... I don't see how that's an attack on female readers. All it says to me is that I remember why I don't like graphic stuff like that.

shoelaceless
06-01-2011, 05:45 PM
... I don't see how that's an attack on female readers. All it says to me is that I remember why I don't like graphic stuff like that.

There's a bit of difference between an "attack on female readers" and something that's bound to drive them away. It's certainly an attack on good taste though.

Slewo.O
06-01-2011, 05:49 PM
There's a bit of difference between an "attack on female readers" and something that's bound to drive them away. It's certainly an attack on good taste though.

I'll definitely agree with the last sentence... Honestly I'd feel no different about the cover if it had Aquaman's head. There really isn't a key difference in what it represents.

shoelaceless
06-01-2011, 06:00 PM
I'll definitely agree with the last sentence... Honestly I'd feel no different about the cover if it had Aquaman's head. There really isn't a key difference in what it represents.

Well, small and anecdotal a bit of evidence as it is, at least one female reader seems to find it repulsive.

Slewo.O
06-01-2011, 06:02 PM
Well, small and anecdotal a bit of evidence as it is, at least one female reader seems to find it repulsive.

Would going to every woman I know, and asking them the question help, for a less anecdotal answer?

Corrina
06-01-2011, 06:27 PM
Well, small and anecdotal a bit of evidence as it is, at least one female reader seems to find it repulsive.

Three if you count the two women who replied to my post.

Hugin
06-01-2011, 09:19 PM
It doesn't matter if it happens or not or that it won't stick. I'm way past the point of being annoyed that characters get killed. And I don't care who drew it.

It's the image itself. It bothers me. If DC was trying to find an image that said "go away, female readers," they couldn't have done better.

ETA: Oh, she rips her spine out. That's so much better.I don't think it's sexist, intentionally or not. It's gruesome, but when you consider the primary cover (http://fav.me/d3g9wzy) and the fact that the issue ends with Batman looking at Flash's burned corpse after sticking him in an electric chair, violence against women isn't what's happening so much as Flashpoint is going down the same needlessly gory* route as so many other comics. It probably should have been Aquaman's head instead of Mera's, but considering there wasn't a single scene with both Amazons and Atlanteans in the same location, it's not vital one way or the other.

Plus, I really like the fact that there is ONE version of WW that wears armor that protects her. That's probably the only thing I like about Flashpoint so far.

*During the scene set in the UK, was there ANY REASON for the nosebleed? It was like the artist realized there wasn't any blood for 2 whole pages and decided to add some.

Slewo.O
06-01-2011, 09:23 PM
I don't think it's sexist, intentionally or not. It's gruesome, but when you consider the primary cover (http://fav.me/d3g9wzy) and the fact that * SPOILER *, violence against women isn't what's happening so much as Flashpoint is going down the same needlessly gory* route as so many other comics. It probably should have been Aquaman's head instead of Mera's, but considering there wasn't a single scene with both Amazons and Atlanteans in the same location, it's not vital one way or the other.

Plus, I really like the fact that there is ONE version of WW that wears armor that protects her. That's probably the only thing I like about Flashpoint so far.

*During the scene set in the UK, was there ANY REASON for the nosebleed? It was like the artist realized there wasn't any blood for 2 whole pages and decided to add some.

I agree with all that... But wasn't the guy getting his ass kicked by the Amazons anyway? And I'm guessing thr cover is representative of what provokes the war.

quietomega
06-01-2011, 09:34 PM
I agree with all that... But wasn't the guy getting his ass kicked by the Amazons anyway? And I'm guessing thr cover is representative of what provokes the war.

Yeah he was, so I thought the nosebleed was warranted.

I figured that they had already declared war on each another and Diana decapitated Mera after a skirmish

coveredinbees
06-02-2011, 12:53 AM
That cover is horrible because it's gross and Mera is awesome. I loved the issue, though and I totally think you should buy Flashpoint brett. I said earlier I was only getting that Milligan series, but my Steve Trevor enthusiast friend recommended issue #2 this morning and I'm definitely getting all of them now. I love pirate Clayface. I really want to know who gave Queen Diana (yay!) the info and I was really touched by Thomas Wayne. I knew what he'd want, but nice dads are nice.

I hate that Hippolyta and Mera died, but I'm having so much fun reading this.

Gail Simone
06-02-2011, 02:08 AM
I enjoyed the first issue quite a lot, haven't read the rest yet!

zemo
06-02-2011, 03:10 AM
I will go out here and state that I actually like that cover. Not because I really like gore or something like that, and I think it could have been far less graphic, but this cover itself helps telling a story of how things came to be, which then doesn't have to be re-told in the comic tiself. It's like the second Hulk movie, where we just skip genesis by putting it in the starting credits. I like that concept.

Infra-Man
06-02-2011, 08:07 AM
I see DC is still up for whole reaching out for female readers thing with Flashpoint.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lm4fmchFbq1qbujox.jpg

The above was sarcasm, btw.

Swipe file...

http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo172/hvigilla/np.jpg

costello
06-10-2011, 08:17 PM
I'm jumping on to DC with Flashpoint. I was always fearful of the continuity, multiple worlds, and all that stuff, so this story seemed like a perfect time to get my feet wet. I've read the first two issues and all the tie-ins (except Aquaman, but I will tonight) and so far I love it. There must be a lot of stuff I'm not seeing and enjoying like veteran fans may (like revamped characters), but so far the only issue I had to read a few times to appreciate was Secret Seven. There were a couple of characters I didn't care for in Flashpoint #1, but I like seeing howe they're developed and how I'm supposed to not like them in the minis. Everything's been fun. I look forward to the rest of the series and the #1 issues.

costello
06-10-2011, 08:24 PM
I enjoyed the first issue quite a lot, haven't read the rest yet!

I really liked World of Flashpoint #1. It was nice; simple and direct.

Karen El
06-10-2011, 10:05 PM
Swipe file...



I think you misunderstand what a swipe is.

Infra-Man
06-11-2011, 06:21 AM
I think you misunderstand what a swipe is.

I should have been clearer that I was making a bad joke.

Spiffy
09-01-2011, 04:25 PM
Okay, if I understood the end of this mess accurately, the universe, which was already split into 52 parts, somehow was also split into 3 parts. And now they are back together.

Huh?

Also, Barry gets home and everything is "back to normal". Well, except for all those changes which make up DCnU, so he must not be very observant.

The Funketeer
09-01-2011, 04:30 PM
Yeah, that 3 parts bit came out of nowhere. A disappointing ending to an otherwise interesting series.

Spiffy
09-01-2011, 04:37 PM
Yeah, that 3 parts bit came out of nowhere. A disappointing ending to an otherwise interesting series.
Hey you got to see Batman go boo-hoo. Wasn't that worth the price of admission (all of the issues and tie-ins)?

Chris Jones
09-01-2011, 05:10 PM
Hey you got to see Batman go boo-hoo. Wasn't that worth the price of admission (all of the issues and tie-ins)?

I wouldn't consider the tie-ins to be part of the "price of admission," even if they did seem to get irksomely more important as the series went on. It's like, "I didn't read the Aquaman miniseries," and then Flashpoint is like, "Whoops!"

I still liked it overall, but I wish it had a tighter pace.

Hugin
09-01-2011, 08:33 PM
I really disliked it. Ignoring the focus on Barry(which confirms that I never want to read his ongoing), the fact is that you could have accomplished everything that affected the story in 2 issues. #1 is all of the Bats and Flash scenes from the first book, as well as the start of book 2 where Barry starts planning to get his powers back. #2 is a shortened version of Barry getting his powers back, followed by the Zoom scenes from the 5th book and then the Bruce sequence. All of the Amazon/Atlantean stuff, the war sequences, freeing Superman, none of it mattered. I don't mean because it was retconned, I mean because none of it affected the characters or the conclusion in a meaningful way.