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AndrewG
03-16-2011, 06:03 AM
Wonder if these kids' time could have been put to better use, say, learning to read and write in the classroom perhaps?


http://radioviceonline.com/obligatory-video-more-chanting-children-this-time-in-wisconsin/

Ben
03-16-2011, 06:05 AM
Nice try.

Marc Lombardi
03-16-2011, 06:18 AM
Civil disobedience and organized protest is a learning tool, especially if the kids believe in the issue. Since it involves their families and teachers I'm sure that most of these "impressionable" kids may have had more riding on this than that conservative blogger whose opinion you quoted may have led on.

AndrewG
03-16-2011, 06:21 AM
Civil disobedience and organized protest is a learning tool, especially if the kids believe in the issue. Since it involves their families and teachers I'm sure that most of these "impressionable" kids may have had more riding on this than that conservative blogger whose opinion you quoted may have led on.

Ehh. The blogger obviously is skewing the story to his own agenda but kids at that age are better served in the classroom. Take them to a museum but involving them in protests (IMHO) is well, creepy. When they're a bunch of cynical deadbeat teens they can get the protests out of their system :)

Slewo.O
03-16-2011, 06:22 AM
Ehh. The blogger obviously is skewing the story to his own agenda but kids at that age are better served in the classroom. Take them to a museum but involving them in protests (IMHO) is well, creepy. When they're a bunch of cynical deadbeat teens they can get the protests out of their system :)

Not anymore creepy than having kids walking with signs like God hates Fags and other conservative-skewing issues is it?

Brad N.
03-16-2011, 06:30 AM
Please. This is a major issue that actually has a major impact on them and their family. They probably took an interest and wanted to come with their parents, but yeah this is as far from indoctrination as it gets.

AndrewG
03-16-2011, 06:31 AM
Not anymore creepy than having kids walking with signs like God hates Fags and other conservative-skewing issues is it?

No, its less creepy than the Westboro church lunatics but still creepy enough.

AndrewG
03-16-2011, 06:31 AM
Please. This is a major issue that actually has a major impact on them and their family. They probably took an interest and wanted to come with their parents, but yeah this is as far from indoctrination as it gets.

Yeah, I'm sure that's it.

Slewo.O
03-16-2011, 06:33 AM
Yeah, I'm sure that's it.

So you're gonna tell me that teaching kids about fighting for people's rights when a law is abusive and how civil disobedience can be used to change that? Yeah I'm not seeing a Westboro connection here Andrew.

Ryan Elliott
03-16-2011, 06:34 AM
:lol:

Prime
03-16-2011, 06:38 AM
If that's you opinion, then it's no more "creepy" than bringing your kids to church every week and getting them to say and sing things they don't understand, about god.

so are you also against parents indoctrinating their children into their religion?

videos like this must send you into a rage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoMOKjmUp5A&feature=related

AndrewG
03-16-2011, 06:38 AM
So you're gonna tell me that teaching kids about fighting for people's rights when a law is abusive and how civil disobedience can be used to change that? Yeah I'm not seeing a Westboro connection here Andrew.

You brought the 'God hates Fags' bunch into this, not me, silly.

These kids don't know what they're doing. They're just being used as pawns when both they and the teachers should be focusing on things like...education

Jacques Toochay
03-16-2011, 06:40 AM
You brought the 'God hates Fags' bunch into this, not me, silly.

These kids don't know what they're doing. They're just being used as pawns when both they and the teachers should be focusing on things like...education

You're trying too hard, Krutch.

Slewo.O
03-16-2011, 06:41 AM
You brought the 'God hates Fags' bunch into this, not me, silly.

These kids don't know what they're doing. They're just being used as pawns when both they and the teachers should be focusing on things like...education

I'm saying on the point of how it's "creepy", your words.

And you're going to tell me that this isn't a way of learning? How else do we get things changed? Relying on legislators who passed a law like that in Wisconsin sure as hell won't do it.

AndrewG
03-16-2011, 06:43 AM
If that's you opinion, then it's no more "creepy" than bringing your kids to church every week and getting them to say and sing things they don't understand, about god.

so are you also against parents indoctrinating their children into their religion?

videos like this must send you into a rage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoMOKjmUp5A&feature=related

Having a belief in a higher power and choosing to worship on your own time is different than rallying against the government over some issue adults have with the system. And unlike a religious belief system (which is usually supported by younger kids learning more about their faith through weekly time of worship or even additional learning outside of class) I have to believe that the adults cherry picked these kids, focused on this issue for this day to make their statement and subsequently dropped the issue moving onto life stages of a butterfly the next day

AndrewG
03-16-2011, 06:44 AM
I'm saying on the point of how it's "creepy", your words.

And you're going to tell me that this isn't a way of learning? How else do we get things changed? Relying on legislators who passed a law like that in Wisconsin sure as hell won't do it.

:)

Slewo.O
03-16-2011, 06:45 AM
:)

It is funny because it has a smiley... Touché Andrew, touché...

Ryan Elliott
03-16-2011, 06:45 AM
Having a belief in a higher power and choosing to worship on your own time is different than rallying against the government over some issue adults have with the system. And unlike a religious belief system (which is usually supported by younger kids learning more about their faith through weekly time of worship or even additional learning outside of class) I have to believe that the adults cherry picked these kids, focused on this issue for this day to make their statement and subsequently dropped the issue moving onto life stages of a butterfly the next day


You just shot yourself in the foot.

AndrewG
03-16-2011, 06:45 AM
You're trying too hard, Krutch.

sticks and stones

Ben
03-16-2011, 06:46 AM
I have to believe that the adults cherry picked these kids, focused on this issue for this day to make their statement and subsequently dropped the issue moving onto life stages of a butterfly the next dayOh, I see. I didn't realize you HAD to believe that.

Slewo.O
03-16-2011, 06:47 AM
Having a belief in a higher power and choosing to worship on your own time is different than rallying against the government over some issue adults have with the system. And unlike a religious belief system (which is usually supported by younger kids learning more about their faith through weekly time of worship or even additional learning outside of class) I have to believe that the adults cherry picked these kids, focused on this issue for this day to make their statement and subsequently dropped the issue moving onto life stages of a butterfly the next day

So you're telling me kids learning how their government works and of the concept of civil disobedience and protest is a bad idea?

Come on man.

Chunky Ink
03-16-2011, 06:47 AM
Having a belief in a higher power and choosing to worship on your own time is different than rallying against the government over some issue adults have with the system. And unlike a religious belief system (which is usually supported by younger kids learning more about their faith through weekly time of worship or even additional learning outside of class) I have to believe that the adults cherry picked these kids, focused on this issue for this day to make their statement and subsequently dropped the issue moving onto life stages of a butterfly the next day
Dig that hole a little deeper.

AndrewG
03-16-2011, 06:48 AM
You just shot yourself in the foot.

I'm not out to win an argument, Ryan. I saw Ethan had posted this on FB and it was fascinating to me in a car wreck sort of way. The likihood of anyone on this board agreeing with me was slim to 5 or so but I felt like venting aloud (via posting) anyway.

AndrewG
03-16-2011, 06:48 AM
So you're telling me kids learning how their government works and of the concept of civil disobedience and protest is a bad idea?

Come on man.

They aren't learning anything except for a silly chant.

Brother Power the Gong
03-16-2011, 06:49 AM
Waitaminute, the imaginary man in the sky has more impact on one's day-to-day life than the jobs held by your parents, educators and members of your community?

Good to know.

Keith P.
03-16-2011, 06:49 AM
They aren't learning anything except for a silly chant.

Really oh great oracle?

Are you there?

AndrewG
03-16-2011, 06:53 AM
Really oh great oracle?

Are you there?

Jesus told me.

AndrewG
03-16-2011, 06:57 AM
Waitaminute, the imaginary man in the sky has more impact on one's day-to-day life than the jobs held by your parents, educators and members of your community?

Good to know.

Didn't say that. Look, if someone is Catholic they're going to church every week and they're maybe going to Bible study or whatnot. It's not a one time thing where Mom forces you in to go to Church and start preaching about Christ. The kids are actually learning about something (whethe you want to believe it's appopriate or real or whatever). This, this is a bunch of folks grabbing kids and teaching em a little song to get some press. I doubt (though I could be wrong) that they've been teaching the kids about the issues for weeks leading up to it and will do the same after.

And again, math science and reading would be a better use of their time

Ryan Elliott
03-16-2011, 06:58 AM
Didn't say that. Look, if someone is Catholic they're going to church every week and they're maybe going to Bible study or whatnot. It's not a one time thing where Mom forces you in to go to Church and start preaching about Christ. The kids are actually learning about something (whethe you want to believe it's appopriate or real or whatever). This, this is a bunch of folks grabbing kids and teaching em a little song to get some press. I doubt (though I could be wrong) that they've been teaching the kids about the issues for weeks leading up to it and will do the same after.

And again, math science and reading would be a better use of their time

Yeah. Parents force their kids to go to church.

The kids don't want to go.

Marc Lombardi
03-16-2011, 07:01 AM
I'm not out to win an argument, Ryan. I saw Ethan had posted this on FB and it was fascinating to me in a car wreck sort of way. The likihood of anyone on this board agreeing with me was slim to 5 or so but I felt like venting aloud (via posting) anyway.

Oh, hell. That explains it.

I will agree with what others have already mentioned -- this "indoctrination" is no different than bringing your kids to church every Sunday and making them sing hymnals and "chant" the Lord's prayer. Calling them pawns is misguided.

Marc Lombardi
03-16-2011, 07:02 AM
And again, math science and reading would be a better use of their time

How about Social Studies and PoliSci?

How about Art & Reading? (Those signs didn't make themselves!)

Brother Power the Gong
03-16-2011, 07:05 AM
Didn't say that. Look, if someone is Catholic they're going to church every week and they're maybe going to Bible study or whatnot. It's not a one time thing where Mom forces you in to go to Church and start preaching about Christ. The kids are actually learning about something (whethe you want to believe it's appopriate or real or whatever). This, this is a bunch of folks grabbing kids and teaching em a little song to get some press. I doubt (though I could be wrong) that they've been teaching the kids about the issues for weeks leading up to it and will do the same after.

And again, math science and reading would be a better use of their time

Removing your assumptions from this, the parents and educators are fighting for something that changes their lives for the worse, which certainly affects the kids. And I'll make the assumption that kids are going to side with their parents, who may not have had to discuss issues like this, as fair negotiations usually don't have that much drama. As well, the kids may have some knowledge of labor history (esp. in Wisconsin) from school; they still teach that stuff right?

Keith P.
03-16-2011, 07:05 AM
Oh, hell. That explains it.

I will agree with what others have already mentioned -- this "indoctrination" is no different than bringing your kids to church every Sunday and making them sing hymnals and "chant" the Lord's prayer. Calling them pawns is misguided.

Well, except these kids aren't being taught fiction.

Brother Power the Gong
03-16-2011, 07:06 AM
…Calling them pawns is misguided.

But it cheapens the opposition.


Also, Andrew, are you against school field trips?

TheTravis!
03-16-2011, 07:08 AM
I would hope that the education of these kids isn't so precarious that taking a day or two out of their school career to experience something about how politics and civil protest work in our system wouldn't necessarily put them off reading and math forever.

AndrewG
03-16-2011, 07:10 AM
Oh, hell. That explains it.

I will agree with what others have already mentioned -- this "indoctrination" is no different than bringing your kids to church every Sunday and making them sing hymnals and "chant" the Lord's prayer. Calling them pawns is misguided.

:)

AndrewG
03-16-2011, 07:15 AM
But it cheapens the opposition.


Also, Andrew, are you against school field trips?

Where's the trip to? Going to a museum? Great idea.

Getting involved in an adult's protest against the local government? Not so much

Marc Lombardi
03-16-2011, 07:17 AM
Well, except these kids aren't being taught fiction.

I'm not going to poo-poo their religious beliefs. I would hope that they would do the same for my political ones.

AndrewG
03-16-2011, 07:17 AM
How about Social Studies and PoliSci?

How about Art & Reading? (Those signs didn't make themselves!)

They'll have plenty of times to have their brains turned to mush when they're older. Let em learn the basics. I'd rather the kids learn what 2 plus 2 is than to tell me whether the wage discrepenices for teachers are valid.

And you know they had help with those signs... :)

Treacle
03-16-2011, 07:18 AM
So you're against children learning about and participating in the major social issues of their day?

Marc Lombardi
03-16-2011, 07:18 AM
Where's the trip to? Going to a museum? Great idea.

Getting involved in an adult's protest against the local government? Not so much

Martin Luther King, Jr. wept.

Ryan Elliott
03-16-2011, 07:18 AM
They'll have plenty of times to have their brains turned to mush when they're older. Let em learn the basics. I'd rather the kids learn what 2 plus 2 is than to tell me whether the wage discrepenices for teachers are valid.

And you know they had help with those signs... :)

Social Studies, PoliSci, art and reading turn kid's brains to mush?

TheTravis!
03-16-2011, 07:19 AM
They'll have plenty of times to have their brains turned to mush when they're older. Let em learn the basics. I'd rather the kids learn what 2 plus 2 is than to tell me whether the wage discrepenices for teachers are valid.

And you know they had help with those signs... :)

Participatory democracy IS basic in our country. Or at least it should be.

Marc Lombardi
03-16-2011, 07:21 AM
Social Studies, PoliSci, art and reading turn kid's brains to mush?

C'mon...we know American conservatives don't care about Politics and Social Studies. It gets in the way of their religious beliefs and morals.

jamestolliver
03-16-2011, 07:23 AM
I would hope that the education of these kids isn't so precarious that taking a day or two out of their school career to experience something about how politics and civil protest work in our system wouldn't necessarily put them off reading and math forever.

Yes.

Ben
03-16-2011, 07:35 AM
Well, except these kids aren't being taught fiction.
That is the difference for me. I don't have a problem with parents telling kids about stuff and telling them to believe in it. I have a problem with parents telling kids bullshit and telling them to believe in it.

Bemo
03-16-2011, 07:38 AM
I live in Wisconsin. Don't underestimate these kids, a lot of them comprehend what's happening here and want to be proactive. I don't have any kids myself, but several of my friends have been urged by their children to take them to Madison to protest.

I'm not saying I know these particular children any better than you do, and they may very well not understand the current political climate. They could very well just be doing what their parents and teachers tell them to do. But it's certainly not fair to assume that. I've met plenty of children that age that know more about politics than most adults I know.

mario
03-16-2011, 07:39 AM
You should worry more about the indoctrination your kids get every morning when they have to recite your Pledge of alliegence

Keith P.
03-16-2011, 07:42 AM
You should worry more about the indoctrination your kids get every morning when they have to recite your Pledge of alliegence

Do schools still do that?

I don't recall ever having to do it past 1st grade, and that was in rural indiana during the late 1970's.

Ryan Elliott
03-16-2011, 07:44 AM
Do schools still do that?

I don't recall ever having to do it past 1st grade, and that was in rural indiana during the late 1970's.


I did it all throughout grade school.

Ben
03-16-2011, 07:45 AM
Do schools still do that?

I don't recall ever having to do it past 1st grade, and that was in rural indiana during the late 1970's.
They still did it when I was in school in the 90s, but you didn't have to do it if you didn't want to. Once I discovered that, I didn't stand.

Ryan Elliott
03-16-2011, 07:47 AM
They still did it when I was in school in the 90s, but you didn't have to do it if you didn't want to. Once I discovered that, I didn't stand.


I didn't do it one day, because I had homework to get done before class, and one of the other classmates said I had a black soul.

I should have said "That's metal" and punched him, but whatever.

Bemo
03-16-2011, 07:49 AM
I didn't do it one day, because I had homework to get done before class, and one of the other classmates said I had a black soul.

I should have said "That's metal" and punched him, but whatever.

:rock:

Heroic Age Moe
03-16-2011, 07:51 AM
So you're against children learning about and participating in the major social issues of their day?

I'd be interested to know if those teacher actually taught them about the whole situation before giving them their chant, then maybe brought the ones that agreed with the teachers.

Also. Actually got to watch a similar group like this yesterday in Philly. The news made it seem like a massive crowd of 100+ people but it was really 18 students and 4 teachers. The chant was horrible and their little goosesteps were laughable. [btw this has nothing to do with WI] I wanted to video it but I felt sorry for them.

HOOKS
03-16-2011, 07:58 AM
I didn't do it one day, because I had homework to get done before class, and one of the other classmates said I had a black soul.

I should have said "That's metal" and punched him, but whatever.

Maybe he meant you had a black soul like Isaac Hayes or Teddy Pendergrass, and he wanted you to make sweet love to him.

Alternatively, the white Malcolm X.

Brother Power the Gong
03-16-2011, 08:01 AM
Maybe he meant you had a black soul like Isaac Hayes or Teddy Pendergrass, and he wanted you to make sweet love to him.

Alternatively, the white "Red."

Fixed, as Ryan is more pimp than civil rights hero.

Ryan Elliott
03-16-2011, 08:02 AM
Maybe he meant you had a black soul like Isaac Hayes or Teddy Pendergrass, and he wanted you to make sweet love to him.

Alternatively, the white Malcolm X.


Well I am inspiring...

Ryan Elliott
03-16-2011, 08:03 AM
Fixed, as Ryan is more pimp than civil rights hero.


http://pushingdirt.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/fist-bump.jpg

Marc Lombardi
03-16-2011, 08:14 AM
Also. Actually got to watch a similar group like this yesterday in Philly. The news made it seem like a massive crowd of 100+ people but it was really 18 students and 4 teachers. The chant was horrible and their little goosesteps were laughable. [btw this has nothing to do with WI] I wanted to video it but I felt sorry for them.

Did NBC10 call it a "FlashMob"?

Kirblar
03-16-2011, 08:15 AM
Having a belief in a higher power and choosing to worship on your own time is different than rallying against the government over some issue adults have with the system. And unlike a religious belief system (which is usually supported by younger kids learning more about their faith through weekly time of worship or even additional learning outside of class) I have to believe that the adults cherry picked these kids, focused on this issue for this day to make their statement and subsequently dropped the issue moving onto life stages of a butterfly the next day
No, it isn't.

Heroic Age Moe
03-16-2011, 08:21 AM
Did NBC10 call it a "FlashMob"?

Oh I'm not sure. I just checked real quick after watching them and there really wasn't a whole lot about it then.

AndrewG
03-16-2011, 08:59 AM
So you're against children learning about and participating in the major social issues of their day?

It's important but not as important as the basics, imo. They'll learn about this later on in school as they're older. And this isn't a major social issue. This is a power play by unions trying to retain control.

AndrewG
03-16-2011, 09:00 AM
Did NBC10 call it a "FlashMob"?

Oh, how I love our local broadcasts.

Brian Defferding
03-16-2011, 09:11 AM
I live in Wisconsin. Don't underestimate these kids, a lot of them comprehend what's happening here and want to be proactive. I don't have any kids myself, but several of my friends have been urged by their children to take them to Madison to protest.

I'm not saying I know these particular children any better than you do, and they may very well not understand the current political climate. They could very well just be doing what their parents and teachers tell them to do. But it's certainly not fair to assume that. I've met plenty of children that age that know more about politics than most adults I know.

Hey! Another Appletonian! High five!

Brother Power the Gong
03-16-2011, 09:16 AM
It's important but not as important as the basics, imo. They'll learn about this later on in school as they're older. And this isn't a major social issue. This is a power play by unions trying to retain control.

:lol:

Brian Defferding
03-16-2011, 09:17 AM
And now for a post that's thread-relevant: Eh, I think they'll be okay. Kids will get their own independent thought later on in life and rebel against their parents and teachers, as it always seems to go in life. Although protestors parading children around seems kinda haughty.

Brother Power the Gong
03-16-2011, 09:30 AM
And now for a post that's thread-relevant: Eh, I think they'll be okay. Kids will get their own independent thought later on in life and rebel against their parents and teachers, as it always seems to go in life. Although protestors parading children around seems kinda scornfully and condescendingly proud.

Interesting. Do you feel the same way at Libertarian Party rallies — when one whole family shows up — or at Republican or Democratic rallies, or Ron Paul rallies, or cause protests, or teabagger mensa fests?

People bring kids to these things all the time. Are they scornfully and condescendingly proud?

Or did you mean hottie?

Marc Lombardi
03-16-2011, 09:33 AM
"When MY side does it, it's fine. But when THEIR side does it, it's distateful."

Brian Defferding
03-16-2011, 09:34 AM
Interesting. Do you feel the same way at Libertarian Party rallies — when one whole family shows up — or at Republican or Democratic rallies, or Ron Paul rallies, or cause protests, or teabagger mensa fests?

People bring kids to these things all the time. Are they scornfully and condescendingly proud?

Or did you mean hottie?

It's just the whole "please think of the children" is a retread cliche'. And hey, I'll say the same thing if any libertarian-centric rallies pull the same stunt.

Marc Lombardi
03-16-2011, 09:38 AM
It's just the whole "please think of the children" is a retread cliche'. And hey, I'll say the same thing if any libertarian-centric rallies pull the same stunt.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2389/2309003401_574cdcc0c5.jpg

jamestolliver
03-16-2011, 09:40 AM
It's important but not as important as the basics, imo. They'll learn about this later on in school as they're older. And this isn't a major social issue. This is a power play by unions trying to retain control.

Ha, that's really how you see this? Collective bargaining is a power play?

Brian Defferding
03-16-2011, 09:40 AM
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2389/2309003401_574cdcc0c5.jpg

GODDAMMIT :mad:

Keith P.
03-16-2011, 09:41 AM
For the record, Westboro brings their kids to their protests strictly to use them as human shields.

Ryan Elliott
03-16-2011, 09:41 AM
It's just the whole "please think of the children" is a retread cliche'. And hey, I'll say the same thing if any libertarian-centric rallies pull the same stunt.

http://www.dailypaul.com/31182/kids-for-ron-paul-the-issues-in-pictures

Marc Lombardi
03-16-2011, 09:42 AM
For the record, Westboro brings their kids to their protests strictly to use them as human shields.

And in case they get horny afterwards.

Brian Defferding
03-16-2011, 09:44 AM
http://www.dailypaul.com/31182/kids-for-ron-paul-the-issues-in-pictures

FUCKING HELL :mad:

Brother Power the Gong
03-16-2011, 09:46 AM
GODDAMMIT :mad:

Really? There's also more than a few images of teabagger spawn donning colonial outfits/statue of liberty outfits, as well kids holding signs saying "I don't want your debt," "Who's going to bail me out?," and didn't one of those groups make a Tea Party coloring book?

Marc Lombardi
03-16-2011, 09:49 AM
Really? There's also more than a few images of teabagger spawn donning colonial outfits/statue of liberty outfits, as well kids holding signs saying "I don't want your debt," "Who's going to bail me out?," and didn't one of those groups make a Tea Party coloring book?

In their defense, those rallies were probably on a Saturday.

AndrewG
03-16-2011, 09:51 AM
For the record, Westboro brings their kids to their protests strictly to use them as human shields.

I don't doubt it. They're scum of the Earth

AndrewG
03-16-2011, 09:52 AM
Interesting. Do you feel the same way at Libertarian Party rallies — when one whole family shows up — or at Republican or Democratic rallies, or Ron Paul rallies, or cause protests, or teabagger mensa fests?

People bring kids to these things all the time. Are they scornfully and condescendingly proud?

Or did you mean hottie?

Not directed at me, but yeah I don't care for it either.

Brian Defferding
03-16-2011, 09:55 AM
Really? There's also more than a few images of teabagger spawn donning colonial outfits/statue of liberty outfits, as well kids holding signs saying "I don't want your debt," "Who's going to bail me out?," and didn't one of those groups make a Tea Party coloring book?

I know. I'm just being a goofball. But yes, it's still a retread cliche.

Brother Power the Gong
03-16-2011, 09:55 AM
Not directed at me, but yeah I don't care for it either.

Fair enough. I think it's OK to bring the kids. Dressing them as Abe Lincoln is a kinda weird, though.

Brother Power the Gong
03-16-2011, 09:56 AM
I know. I'm just being a goofball. But yes, it's still a retread cliche.

It can be. It can also be valid, like when discussing education.

WillieLee
03-16-2011, 09:57 AM
Leave Neil Gaiman alone. He's a Scientologist, get over it.

bartleby
03-16-2011, 10:01 AM
Ha, that's really how you see this? Collective bargaining is a power play?

That's how Fox News has told people to see this.


Indoctrinating adults...now there's a real problem that needs to be addressed.

Brian Defferding
03-16-2011, 10:07 AM
It can be. It can also be valid, like when discussing education.

I suppose, but it also makes me roll my eyes too partly because they're children and still don't know their ass from a hole in the ground yet and are doing it because a parent told them to, know what I mean? Not saying it shouldn't be done altogether mind you, I'm just saying it can be off-putting.

Brother Power the Gong
03-16-2011, 10:13 AM
I suppose, but it also makes me roll my eyes too partly because they're children and still don't know their ass from a hole in the ground yet and are doing it because a parent told them to, know what I mean? Not saying it shouldn't be done altogether mind you, I'm just saying it can be off-putting.

I certainly think there are limits, but rallies and protests are part of the American political experience, and letting your kids be part of it is OK. I take my daughter with me to vote, as I do it on the way to taking her to daycare.

Marc Lombardi
03-16-2011, 10:19 AM
I suppose, but it also makes me roll my eyes too partly because they're children and still don't know their ass from a hole in the ground yet and are doing it because a parent told them to, know what I mean? Not saying it shouldn't be done altogether mind you, I'm just saying it can be off-putting.

Maybe it's difficult for me to understand because I don't have children, but how is bringing a kid to church and teaching them about religion and your beliefs in God as and adult any different than bringing a kid to a political protest or rally because that also reflects your belief system as an adult. Pushing a kid to hold an Obama 2012 sign is not much different than sending your kid to CCD class.

Brian Defferding
03-16-2011, 10:31 AM
Maybe it's difficult for me to understand because I don't have children, but how is bringing a kid to church and teaching them about religion and your beliefs in God as and adult any different than bringing a kid to a political protest or rally because that also reflects your belief system as an adult. Pushing a kid to hold an Obama 2012 sign is not much different than sending your kid to CCD class.

I see your point. The difference I see here, I guess, is that going to church is not a public protest or an attempt to publicly preach. Now, let's say a church used children in a public setting as attempt to say something like "Save your child's soul and accept Jesus" or some shit like that, yeah it's kinda off-putting (amongst other things), wouldn't you think?

Marc Lombardi
03-16-2011, 10:43 AM
I see your point. The difference I see here, I guess, is that going to church is not a public protest or an attempt to publicly preach. Now, let's say a church used children in a public setting as attempt to say something like "Save your child's soul and accept Jesus" or some shit like that, yeah it's kinda off-putting (amongst other things), wouldn't you think?

Or like holding up signs showing aborted fetuses.

Brian Defferding
03-16-2011, 10:54 AM
Or like holding up signs showing aborted fetuses.

Exactly!

Bemo
03-16-2011, 11:20 AM
Hey! Another Appletonian! High five!

:wave:

Dreaded Anomaly
03-16-2011, 11:45 AM
It's important but not as important as the basics, imo. They'll learn about this later on in school as they're older. And this isn't a major social issue. This is a power play by unions trying to retain control.

You appear to have no understand of this issue whatsoever. That's amusing, because it's simple enough for even a child to understand. "The governor is trying to take money from teachers so he could give money to his rich friends" sums it up pretty well.

Teachers' pensions are funded by withholding a certain amount from their salaries each month, so there's no "independent" taxpayer funding as Walker claimed; it's all part of the salary. He was pushing the necessity of this to balance the budget, but he previously passed corporate tax cuts. Then they passed the bill to eliminate collective bargaining outside of any budget bill, making it obvious that they just want to eliminate unions because they don't tend to vote Republican.

Taxman
03-16-2011, 11:50 AM
This has gone on for years on both sides of the political spectrum. And it is certainly not something I would engage in.

Why is it "creepy" this time? Why are we fired up about this now?

Marc Lombardi
03-16-2011, 11:53 AM
You appear to have no understand of this issue whatsoever. That's amusing, because it's simple enough for even a child to understand. "The governor is trying to take money from teachers so he could give money to his rich friends" sums it up pretty well.

Teachers' pensions are funded by withholding a certain amount from their salaries each month, so there's no "independent" taxpayer funding as Walker claimed; it's all part of the salary. He was pushing the necessity of this to balance the budget, but he previously passed corporate tax cuts. Then they passed the bill to eliminate collective bargaining outside of any budget bill, making it obvious that they just want to eliminate unions because they don't tend to vote Republican.

Let's be fair. That's not entirely the crux of the situation. Besides the political aspects of the argument (and everyone's opinion), the Governor also wants to severly limit (if not remove entirely) the ability for state employees (and their unions) to negotiate via collective bargaining. The jist of this is that the Guv wants to eliminate one of the strongest abilities of a Union. While I am generally fed up with Union antics, I'm also aware of the NEED for unions and the role they play not only in safeguarding the rights of the people in the unions but also for other workers across the nation.

Marc Lombardi
03-16-2011, 11:54 AM
Why is it "creepy" this time? Why are we fired up about this now?

Because Ethan said so. And then Andrew said so, too.

Taxman
03-16-2011, 11:56 AM
Because Ethan said so. And then Andrew said so, too.So just more bad right wing posturing then? :sleepy:

Marc Lombardi
03-16-2011, 12:02 PM
So just more "creepy" right wing posturing then? :sleepy:

Truthified.

Dreaded Anomaly
03-16-2011, 12:03 PM
Let's be fair. That's not entirely the crux of the situation. Besides the political aspects of the argument (and everyone's opinion), the Governor also wants to severly limit (if not remove entirely) the ability for state employees (and their unions) to negotiate via collective bargaining. The jist of this is that the Guv wants to eliminate one of the strongest abilities of a Union. While I am generally fed up with Union antics, I'm also aware of the NEED for unions and the role they play not only in safeguarding the rights of the people in the unions but also for other workers across the nation.

True, but if anything that makes it worse.

I'm also not clear on how collective bargaining can actually be outlawed given the right to petition, but Wisconsin's not the first state to do this, so perhaps one of our more legally-minded members can clarify that.

Brian Defferding
03-16-2011, 12:12 PM
True, but if anything that makes it worse.

I'm also not clear on how collective bargaining can actually be outlawed given the right to petition, but Wisconsin's not the first state to do this, so perhaps one of our more legally-minded members can clarify that.

Just to be clear, the law just passed here only applies to unions for state workers not private unions, and it doesn't outlaw the state worker union outright, it just takes away their power to bargain over benefits. Not sure if you know this, I know others do at least, I just had to say it given the amount of misinformation going around the media.

Dreaded Anomaly
03-16-2011, 12:14 PM
Just to be clear, the law just passed here only applies to unions for state workers, and it doesn't outlaw the state worker union outright, it just takes away their power to bargain over benefits.

Yes, that's why I see a potential First Amendment conflict. For state workers, collective bargaining is petitioning the government, isn't it?

Marc Lombardi
03-16-2011, 12:14 PM
True, but if anything that makes it worse.

I'm also not clear on how collective bargaining can actually be outlawed given the right to petition, but Wisconsin's not the first state to do this, so perhaps one of our more legally-minded members can clarify that.

I think that's a major part of the issue as well, and why the democratic members took off to Illinois to prevent a quorum (and a vote on the matter). When the GOP found a loophole to allow them to vote on the issues (assuming all other fiscal issues were resolved before-hand or taken from the content of the new bill), they basically found a round-about way to pass a law that in another round-about way violates not only the U.S. constitution but also the state's constitution.

bachman
03-16-2011, 12:20 PM
I think kids being made to do anything they don't fully understand is creepy, whether it involves religion or politics. Yes that includes church.

And how the hell did the Westboro nuts get into this? Isn't it universally agreed upon by everyone (religious, non-religious, liberal, conservative) that they are assholes?

JoeE
03-16-2011, 01:05 PM
I think kids being made to do anything they don't fully understand is creepy, whether it involves religion or politics. Yes that includes church.

And how the hell did the Westboro nuts get into this? Isn't it universally agreed upon by everyone (religious, non-religious, liberal, conservative) that they are assholes?

Apparently the Bendis Board pro-Westboro contingent needed to be addressed.


Yes, that's why I see a potential First Amendment conflict. For state workers, collective bargaining is petitioning the government, isn't it?

No, collective bargaining is a special process with legal protection. In a state without collective bargaining laws, employees are free to unionize and petition the government in accordance with their free speech protection. The government can simply refuse to deal with them as a collective.

Fourthman
03-16-2011, 01:16 PM
Does "The Gathering" have one of those corporate-denial-of-shared-opinion disclaimers? No reason.

Dreaded Anomaly
03-16-2011, 01:16 PM
No, collective bargaining is a special process with legal protection. In a state without collective bargaining laws, employees are free to unionize and petition the government in accordance with their free speech protection. The government can simply refuse to deal with them as a collective.

Ah, I see now. Thanks for the clarification.

Fourthman
03-16-2011, 01:18 PM
I think kids being made to do anything they don't fully understand is creepy, whether it involves religion or politics. Yes that includes church.

That's kind of a broad blanket - there's a lot kids don't understand that they arguably have to do.

Fake Pat
03-16-2011, 01:20 PM
I could not have picked a worse time to try and escape this board.

Watching Andrew reveal his true colors the last couple of weeks has just been far too entertaining.

Fourthman
03-16-2011, 01:22 PM
I could not have picked a worse time to try and escape this board.

Watching Andrew reveal his true colors the last couple of weeks has just been far too entertaining.

Weeks? I noticed months ago.

Fake Pat
03-16-2011, 01:23 PM
Weeks? I noticed months ago.

Oh, yeah, me too. Probably longer. But he used to seem content to only say this sort of junk in threads were he knew people wouldn't question him.

Ben
03-16-2011, 01:34 PM
I think kids being made to do anything they don't fully understand is creepy, whether it involves religion or politics. Yes that includes church.

And how the hell did the Westboro nuts get into this? Isn't it universally agreed upon by everyone (religious, non-religious, liberal, conservative) that they are assholes?
I definitely thought it was creepy when I had to have ten surgeries to put ten sets of tubes put in my ears to save my life!

Ray G.
03-16-2011, 01:55 PM
You're trying too hard, Krutch.

Less than ten posts in, and you resorted to personal attacks. Charming.

Ray G.
03-16-2011, 01:57 PM
How about Social Studies and PoliSci?

How about Art & Reading? (Those signs didn't make themselves!)

I personally doubt those kids are learning anything more than their parents' skewed version of events.

Ray G.
03-16-2011, 01:58 PM
You should worry more about the indoctrination your kids get every morning when they have to recite your Pledge of alliegence

:lol:

Taxman
03-16-2011, 01:59 PM
I personally doubt those kids are learning anything more than their parents' skewed version of events.There's a first time for everything then, I guess.

Fake Pat
03-16-2011, 02:00 PM
:lol:

"Under god".

That's fucking creepy.

Keith P.
03-16-2011, 02:05 PM
I definitely thought it was creepy when I had to have ten surgeries to put ten sets of tubes put in my ears to save my life!

I used to always feel sorry for the kids with tubes in their ears when we went swimming. :(

Jacques Toochay
03-16-2011, 02:07 PM
Less than ten posts in, and you resorted to personal attacks. Charming.

:Oops:

Sorry. It's so hard to tell the difference between moe, krutch, bachmann, and andrewg these days.

Ray G.
03-16-2011, 02:07 PM
"Under god".

That's fucking creepy.

So you would have been fine with the daily pledge before that?

Fake Pat
03-16-2011, 02:08 PM
So you would have been fine with the daily pledge before that?

Not really, but that doesn't mean the point isn't relevant.

Ray G.
03-16-2011, 02:08 PM
:Oops:

Sorry. It's so hard to tell the difference between moe, krutch, bachmann, and andrewg these days.

No, it's not.

Ray G.
03-16-2011, 02:09 PM
Not really, but that doesn't mean the point isn't relevant.

"Creepy" is a value judgement, so there wasn't really much of a point there at all.

I find 99% of the anti-Israel movement to be horrifically creepy, but that doesn't make my opinion fact.

Jacques Toochay
03-16-2011, 02:09 PM
No, it's not.

Yes, it is.

jamestolliver
03-16-2011, 02:10 PM
I really don't understand how the union can be painted as making a power grab here. Andrew's position makes no sense.

Fake Pat
03-16-2011, 02:10 PM
No, it's not.

It's getting there.

Ray G.
03-16-2011, 02:10 PM
Yes, it is.

I find it quite easy to tell you from Gong, Fake Pat, and Ben. Funny that.

Fake Pat
03-16-2011, 02:10 PM
I really don't understand how the union can be painted as making a power grab here. Andrew's position makes no sense.

That's the great thing about being a person who accepts "because" as a valid argument.

His positions never have to make sense.

Ray G.
03-16-2011, 02:11 PM
I really don't understand how the union can be painted as making a power grab here. Andrew's position makes no sense.

This is true. It's more that they're trying to preserve their existing power.

Fake Pat
03-16-2011, 02:11 PM
I find it quite easy to tell you from Gong, Fake Pat, and Ben. Funny that.

That's the difference between people who have positions based on critical thought and those who have positions based on parroted nonsense.

Jacques Toochay
03-16-2011, 02:13 PM
I find it quite easy to tell you from Gong, Fake Pat, and Ben. Funny that.

Ha! Considering we're one person with multiple accounts, then I guess you sure do look silly!

Ray G.
03-16-2011, 02:15 PM
That's the difference between people who have positions based on critical thought and those who have positions based on parroted nonsense.

Very debatable.

I never got the opinion that Andrew's beliefs are anything but his own.

Jacques Toochay
03-16-2011, 02:18 PM
I never got the opinion that Andrew's beliefs are anything but his own.


I saw Ethan had posted this on FB and it was fascinating to me in a car wreck sort of way.

:mistrust:

Fake Pat
03-16-2011, 02:19 PM
:mistrust:

Beat me to it.

Ray G.
03-16-2011, 02:23 PM
:mistrust:

So he saw something that someone else posted, and agreed with it.

I read op-eds and agree with them sometimes. Doesn't mean the opinions weren't mine before I read the article, just that it reminded me or informed me of the specific issue.

Fake Pat
03-16-2011, 02:25 PM
So he saw something that someone else posted, and agreed with it.

I read op-eds and agree with them sometimes. Doesn't mean the opinions weren't mine before I read the article, just that it reminded me or informed me of the specific issue.

Again though, here's the thing about nonsense; it's not nearly as likely to be independently generated than something that isn't crazy.

Heroic Age Moe
03-16-2011, 02:26 PM
:Oops:

Sorry. It's so hard to tell the difference between moe, krutch, bachmann, and andrewg these days.

It's typical is all.

RebootedCorpse
03-16-2011, 02:38 PM
Fox "news" Fail
http://loyalkng.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Glenn-beck-white-culture-refuses-to-answer-obama-president-barack-fox-news-fail.jpg

Khrutch
03-16-2011, 02:42 PM
That's the difference between people who have positions based on critical thought and those who have positions based on parroted nonsense.


I'm so glad you're back. Never change dude.

:lol:

Actually, I take that back. I hope you do change because you are heading down a very bad road. You do have my prayers Pat.

:)

RebootedCorpse
03-16-2011, 02:43 PM
Heh, don't worry, I will be teaching my kids how it will be better and more profitable for them to NEVER be a part of any Union.
:lol:

"kids"
http://loyalkng.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Glenn-beck-white-culture-refuses-to-answer-obama-president-barack-fox-news-fail.jpg

Ethan Van Sciver
03-16-2011, 02:44 PM
Not anymore creepy than having kids walking with signs like God hates Fags and other conservative-skewing issues is it?

You're right about that. These liberals are only slightly less disgusting than the Westboro Baptists.

Well done. :lol:

Taxman
03-16-2011, 02:46 PM
So you would have been fine with the daily pledge before that?Whatever.

Pat's obsession with religion is creepier than any use of the word "God" by the government.

Jason California
03-16-2011, 02:47 PM
Not anymore creepy than having kids walking with signs like God hates Fags and other conservative-skewing issues is it?


Why do you always go to extremes? It seems that if one person makes a point you almost always assume they are promoting the wrongs of another group. No where in Andrews post does he condone the God Hates Fags people. No where in his post does he say any words that speak to that, and the article he links to says that that is wrong as well in its opening paragraph.

I don't care if you agree with his premise or not, but you are trying to start a debate about an idea that has no basis in what he has said. You do this a lot.

Ethan Van Sciver
03-16-2011, 02:49 PM
The God Hates Fags people are the new Hitler. You can always feel better about yourself knowing that you aren't quite as bad as they are.

Well, I can't, but...

stevapalooza
03-16-2011, 02:50 PM
Just as a joke someone should trick those kids into chanting "No Roger, No Rerun, No rent!" So old people like me could giggle.

RebootedCorpse
03-16-2011, 02:50 PM
Comparing this to Westboro is so utterly without rational merit that it should qualify as a sole determination for a Section 8 commitment

Ray G.
03-16-2011, 02:52 PM
Comparing this to Westboro is so utterly without rational merit that it should qualify as a sole determination for a Section 8 commitment

Some people seem to think they're an accepted part of the Conservative movement and can be thrown in their faces.

EVERYONE hates these fucks.

Taxman
03-16-2011, 02:56 PM
Why do you always go to extremes?


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/glima/screen%20caps/Extremes.png

Fake Pat
03-16-2011, 03:00 PM
Some people seem to think they're an accepted part of the Conservative movement and can be thrown in their faces.

EVERYONE hates these fucks.

True, though it takes a pretty special level of intellectually dishonesty to look down on them while trying to make the Constitution homophobic.

Ethan Van Sciver
03-16-2011, 03:00 PM
Some people seem to think they're an accepted part of the Conservative movement and can be thrown in their faces.

EVERYONE hates these fucks.

Maybe that's why they lash out.

Keith P.
03-16-2011, 03:31 PM
section 8 committment

Low income housing?

Ray G.
03-16-2011, 03:31 PM
True, though it takes a pretty special level of intellectually dishonesty to look down on them while trying to make the Constitution homophobic.

I think that while there may be some people on the far right who agree with their perspective on homosexuality, they lost pretty much everyone when they started harassing innocent people at funerals.

BriRedfern
03-16-2011, 03:33 PM
True, though it takes a pretty special level of intellectually dishonesty to look down on them while trying to make the Constitution homophobic.

Hello, hello, hello...

That is the echo in the well that you keep going back to.

Fake Pat
03-16-2011, 03:34 PM
I think that while there may be some people on the far right who agree with their perspective on homosexuality, they lost pretty much everyone when they started harassing innocent people at funerals.

Again, I would imagine you're right, but that's not my point.

I would imagine most people would rather be harassed by some nutjobs that nobody likes or takes seriously than be considered "less than" by their own government.

RebootedCorpse
03-16-2011, 03:38 PM
Low income housing?

Insanity

Brother Power the Gong
03-16-2011, 03:39 PM
I find it quite easy to tell you from Gong, Fake Pat, and Ben. Funny that.

You just look at the pictures.

Keith P.
03-16-2011, 03:42 PM
Insanity

I know, it was a joke based on the term section 8 is most commonly used to refer to goverment subsidized housing...

Kirblar
03-16-2011, 03:46 PM
I know, it was a joke based on the term section 8 is most commonly used to refer to goverment subsidized housing...
Realtor humor? :lol:

Slewo.O
03-16-2011, 03:50 PM
.

bachman
03-16-2011, 04:22 PM
That's the difference between people who have positions based on critical thought and those who have positions based on parroted nonsense.

:D

Pat, what was the point of your one week self imposed exile? If it was to work on your insulting, hostile, and anti-social behavior... I think you need to take another week.

RebootedCorpse
03-16-2011, 04:29 PM
:D

Pat, what was the point of your one week self imposed exile? If it was to work on your insulting, hostile, and anti-social behavior... I think you need to take another week.

http://media.schadenfreude.net/2009/06/irony6.jpg

Josh V
03-16-2011, 06:03 PM
I will say this, when I was in fifth grade my dad took my brother and I to Washington DC to see George HW Bush inaugurated. My brother is 5 years younger than I am, so I'd imagine somewhere between us those kids equal out in age. I think looking back I learned a ton about our government and how it operates in that trip, not just for the actual inauguration but for the other parts of the trip as well than I could have learned up to that point in school. Now funny thing about that whole trip, my dad is a democrat, I am a democrat, and my brother does political work for the democratic party in d.c. Neither of us was warped to one side or the other but it was a fantastic experience. I at the time just wanted to get out of school for the day, but looking back on it am extremely grateful to that trip.

We can easily rip the parents here, but this doesn't mean the kids are going to turn out one way or another. Are they all going to understand the significance of the event as it unfolds today? Nope, but it sure as sin allows them to discuss this and use it as a reference point in their lives going forward. Isn't that what education is also supposed to be a teaching moment?

Kedd
03-16-2011, 08:55 PM
indoctrination is always wrong

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMBt8LiAjts

Marc Lombardi
03-17-2011, 02:46 AM
I will say this, when I was in fifth grade my dad took my brother and I to Washington DC to see George HW Bush inaugurated. My brother is 5 years younger than I am, so I'd imagine somewhere between us those kids equal out in age. I think looking back I learned a ton about our government and how it operates in that trip, not just for the actual inauguration but for the other parts of the trip as well than I could have learned up to that point in school. Now funny thing about that whole trip, my dad is a democrat, I am a democrat, and my brother does political work for the democratic party in d.c. Neither of us was warped to one side or the other but it was a fantastic experience. I at the time just wanted to get out of school for the day, but looking back on it am extremely grateful to that trip.

We can easily rip the parents here, but this doesn't mean the kids are going to turn out one way or another. Are they all going to understand the significance of the event as it unfolds today? Nope, but it sure as sin allows them to discuss this and use it as a reference point in their lives going forward. Isn't that what education is also supposed to be a teaching moment?

STOP GIVING ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE! We're trying to make baseless suppositions over here!


;)

stevapalooza
03-17-2011, 02:50 AM
Indoctrinating little kids is dumb anyway because the minute they get old enough to rebel they're going to turn into the exact opposite of what you tried to turn them into. Like those white girls with really racists dads who end up dating nothing but black guys.

WhindamPryce
03-17-2011, 04:02 AM
re: the OP

Hilarious! And sad.

And welcome back, Fake Pat. :thumb: