To all that think Joel Schumaker to be the scum of the Earth

[ZimMan2]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106856/

http://movies.netflix.com/Movie/Falling-Down/490522?strackid=5217b54309b8b54_0_srl&strkid=1354453179_0_0&trkid=222336#height1786

Watch it, then try and tell me this man is a bad director.

Seriously, I just got done with this flick, and frankly, I was blown away by it. Incredibly well-paced, perfectly acted, and emotionally resonant. I'm pretty sure this is one of my all-time favorites now.

[Chris Jones]

...Watch what? I don't have a Netflix account.

[ZimMan2]

Corrected.

[Tyr]

He also directed Lost Boys.

Falling Down was the first dvd I ever owned. And yes it is good. The thing is I think his stuff after Falling Down started to slide in quality. Take "A Time To Kill", I think that movie sent the wrong message about violence and racism, fact I think it's enough to make Martin Luther King Jr. spin in his grave. Meeting violence with violence is exactly what groups like the Neo Nazis, and the KKK, want. They want an excuse to smash heads.

The last Batman film was probably the lowest he can go, however I might like to see Phone booth eventually, and give him another chance.

Also, off topic but I think ZimMan's avatar and mine should have a jam session.

[BnL]

I never thought he was a bad director. His reputation among fanboys was ruined for directing campy Batman movies, that's all. And the backlash is often of a homophobic nature (even the makers of The New Batman Adventures couldn't resist a "fag joke" at his expense).

[Chris Jones]

I've never heard anything homophobic against the Schumacher Batman movies.

[BnL]

I've never heard anything homophobic against the Schumacher Batman movies.

Then I'm glad that hasn't been your experience, but I've seen quite a lot of it.

[Patrick Gerard]

I blame Akiva Goldsman for B&R... although Falling Down is basically the perfect epitome of about 50 tropes, just really well executed.

[Basque]

You know, it's possible for a director to make really terrible movies and good movies. Joel Shumacher is one such director.

I've seen:

The Lost Boys
Flatliners
Dying Young
Falling Down
The Client
Batman Forever
Phone Booth

If I had to arrange those in order from best to worst, I'd say:

The Client
Falling Down
The Lost Boys
Flatliners
Phone Booth
Dying Young
Batman Forever

I think Phone Booth is an overrated piece of garbage. Dying Young I rate poorly mostly because I don't like that type of movie. I saw it about 15 years ago and my memory of it is pretty vague.

I've never seen Batman and Robin.

[Matt_Y]

Tigerland is pretty good.

[Tyr]

Then I'm glad that hasn't been your experience, but I've seen quite a lot of it.

I remember Rob Zombie making some derogatory remarks in that direction during an interview for his first movie.

[K-DoG7p7]

Congratulations, you have now discovered that Joel Schumacher is an excelent Director who made the shitiest Batman movies ever

[bert]

I never thought he was a bad director. His reputation among fanboys was ruined for directing campy Batman movies, that's all. And the backlash is often of a homophobic nature (even the makers of The New Batman Adventures couldn't resist a "fag joke" at his expense).

they didn't make a "fag joke"

Schumacher is an extremely flamboyant personality, and they were making fun of that.

Sorry, but really, any credibility he had as a director he blew with some truly awful films (the last two Batman films included).

[Patrick Gerard]

Congratulations, you have now discovered that Joel Schumacher is an excelent Director who made the shitiest Batman movies ever

"Batman Forever" is pretty much in the same tone as my favorite Batman comics.

[Cam63]

The Geneva Convention amended Schu's two Batman movies should not be forcibly watched by prisoners of war.

[Tyr]

The Geneva Convention amended Schu's two Batman movies should not be forcibly watched by prisoners of war.

I heard the results were a lot messier then other Geneva Convention violations, apparently.

[VenomMelendez]

they didn't make a "fag joke"

Schumacher is an extremely flamboyant personality, and they were making fun of that.

Sorry, but really, any credibility he had as a director he blew with some truly awful films (the last two Batman films included).

To fanboys that can't let things go maybe, but he's still a good director.

Seriously, he's not as bad as some think and he's a nice guy.

[BnL]

they didn't make a "fag joke"

Schumacher is an extremely flamboyant personality, and they were making fun of that.

Sorry, but really, any credibility he had as a director he blew with some truly awful films (the last two Batman films included).

He was shown swinging around a flagpole while wearing a feather boa, and the other kids thought he was weird. I consider that a "fag joke" they could get away with in a kid's show. Your mileage may vary.

[Jose]

I hate Batman Forever, but I love Batman & Robin (that's right - love).

I also hate 8mm and The Number 23, but I love Falling Down and the Lost Boys and really liked Flatliners even though I've only seen it once.

He gets a bad rap, but honestly he was hired to make Batman movies more in the tone of the TV show (in fact, so was Burton, who was a comedy director at the time), and I think he succeeded with Batman & Robin, which is goofy fun with great set pieces, a little pathos, and some neat DC references.

[bert]

He was shown swinging around a flagpole while wearing a feather boa, and the other kids thought he was weird. I consider that a "fag joke" they could get away with in a kid's show. Your mileage may vary.

again, that was a criticism of Schumacher himself -- he's extremely flamboyant, and very fey (he carries himself very much like Quentin Crisp in my opinion).

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMjEyNzk5NDcyMl5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwOTMwMjA2Mg@@._ V1._CR56,0,287,287_SS80_.jpg

so yeah. . that's not a fag joke, it's a shot at the director himself.

but I suppose if you are going to look for an insult, then you'll see one there.

[bert]

To fanboys that can't let things go maybe, but he's still a good director.

Seriously, he's not as bad as some think and he's a nice guy.

please -- to dismiss criticism of him as "fanboys that can't let things go" ?

he's made shitty films BESIDES Batman & Robin.

for every "Falling Down" "the Client" "Dying Young" or "Lost Boys", there's

"DC Cab" "Flawless" "The Phantom of the Opera" "Blood Creek" or "St. Elmo's Fire" (not to mention the two Batman films he did).

he's wildly inconsistent, and to claim that some think he's a crappy director only because of the Batman films shows that you simply aren't familar with the Director. (IMDB is a good source to see the films he's directed, produced, or co-produced)

[The Hodag]

Saw Falling Down recently and it didn't make much of an impression - in fact, I've already forgotten why it didn't click for me. I think I liked it early on, was put off by something in the second half. I like that it tried something a little ambitious though.

Beyond that:

*Fucking LOVE Lost Boys. If that was all he ever made, he'd be alright in my book.

*Caught Phone Booth recently, and for a gimmick movie it was pretty good. If I had cable, it's the kind of movie I'd kick back and enjoy as only a mildly guilty pleasure.

*I like Batman & Robin, too. Some of the stuff, like the Bat-nipples, is almost too surreal for words, but my first memories of Batman as a kid were of reruns of the campy 60s show, so I'll always have a fondness for that approach. I didn't like Batman Forever other than Nicole Kidman's body, but I actually own the DVD of Batman & Robin. Jose mentioned the one or two scenes of pathos, and I agree - I've always thought the scene with Bruce and the dying Alfred was a particularly great little moment ("I love you, old man.")

*I don't much know Schumacher's real personality, but most every time I've heard him talk he's been very cool, very generous in praising others. He seems pretty alright.

I got no hate for him at all, and frankly, the "die Schumacher!" backlash from his Batman movies has always seemed childish and easy.

I do kind of hate A Time to Kill, but I'll let it slide. Ain't worth gettin' worked up over.

"Now imagine that movie was white."

http://www.andpop.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/timetokill-287x300.jpg

[BnL]

again, that was a criticism of Schumacher himself -- he's extremely flamboyant, and very fey (he carries himself very much like Quentin Crisp in my opinion).

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMjEyNzk5NDcyMl5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwOTMwMjA2Mg@@._ V1._CR56,0,287,287_SS80_.jpg

so yeah. . that's not a fag joke, it's a shot at the director himself.

but I suppose if you are going to look for an insult, then you'll see one there.

I'm not "looking for an insult." There's no need to go there.

As for the picture you posted, he's posing with the Sesame Street puppets and making a silly face. You could find similar pictures with any celebrity posing with those characters. And I've looked at the rest of his gallery on imdb, and found nothing particularly "flamboyant." I certainly don't see him vamping around wearing a feather boa. And anyway, I think attacking him for being "flamboyant" is pretty much the same as attacking him for being gay. As far as coded insults go, it's not very difficult to decipher. And especially knowing that his Batman movies are largely criticized for being too homoerotic and "gay," I think the message is pretty clear.

But again, your mileage may vary. You're entitled to your opinion and interpretation, and I'm entitled to mine.

[bert]

I'm not "looking for an insult." There's no need to go there.

As for the picture you posted, he's posing with the Sesame Street puppets and making a silly face. You could find similar pictures with any celebrity posing with those characters. And I've looked at the rest of his gallery on imdb, and found nothing particularly "flamboyant." I certainly don't see him vamping around wearing a feather boa. And anyway, I think attacking him for being "flamboyant" is pretty much the same as attacking him for being gay. As far as coded insults go, it's not very difficult to decipher. And especially knowing that his Batman movies are largely criticized for being too homoerotic and "gay," I think the message is pretty clear.

But again, your mileage may vary. You're entitled to your opinion and interpretation, and I'm entitled to mine.

sorry, didn't mean to come across as so harsh (ie: looking for an insult).

a quick google pic search found these. . I've seen the man talk on several discussion tracks (a check on youtube has some of em). . he's very Quentin Crispy. . so yeah. . flamboyant.

doesn't take away your point that perhaps "flamboyant = gay". . but I simply don't see it that way.


http://www.frankdecaro.com/photos/celebrities/15/Joel%20Schumacher.JPG

http://alexanderdenk.com/images/celebrity/joelSchumacher.jpg

[bert]

besides, I'm not even sure he is gay. . isn't he married?

edit: Ask.com top answer says he's openly gay. (I really thought he was just an effeminate straight man).

[The Hodag]

It's Wikipedia, so take it with a grain of salt, but...


Schumacher has been openly gay through most of his career.[8] In Liz Smith's memoir, Natural Blonde, she states that "He called himself 'A Sexual Outlaw'" and discusses their love affair and subsequent friendship.

[Spiffy]

please -- to dismiss criticism of him as "fanboys that can't let things go" ?

he's made shitty films BESIDES Batman & Robin.

for every "Falling Down" "the Client" "Dying Young" or "Lost Boys", there's

"DC Cab" "Flawless" "The Phantom of the Opera" "Blood Creek" or "St. Elmo's Fire" (not to mention the two Batman films he did).

he's wildly inconsistent, and to claim that some think he's a crappy director only because of the Batman films shows that you simply aren't familar with the Director. (IMDB is a good source to see the films he's directed, produced, or co-produced)
Wait. He made that utter masterpiece DC Cab? Wow.

[Reverend Smooth]

He's usually 'shoefucker' to me for what he's done to a lot of movies, but every now and then he spits out something really good.

[Tyr]

please -- to dismiss criticism of him as "fanboys that can't let things go" ?

he's made shitty films BESIDES Batman & Robin.

for every "Falling Down" "the Client" "Dying Young" or "Lost Boys", there's

"DC Cab" "Flawless" "The Phantom of the Opera" "Blood Creek" or "St. Elmo's Fire" (not to mention the two Batman films he did).

he's wildly inconsistent, and to claim that some think he's a crappy director only because of the Batman films shows that you simply aren't familar with the Director. (IMDB is a good source to see the films he's directed, produced, or co-produced)

So Saint Elmo's Fire was indeed crap? Is it ok if I liked John Parr's theme song to the movie? No? Well fuck you, then! I like it anyway!

But yeah now that I think about it, Schumaker is alot like Jerry Bruckheimer in that his films can be inconsistent, the only difference is that I think Bruckheimer has yet to be affiliated with something so awful as those Batman films.

[The Funketeer]

Rent Tigerland if you want to see what he's really capable of. Also notable for having a great performance by Collin Farrell. His first movie I think.

[MacQuarrie]

Why his Batman movies sucked so hard: He invited Kenner into the scriptwriting process. Literally. He contacted Kenner, and invited them to create things to be placed in the film that would serve as springboards for toys. In one film, there were over 70 different plot-points created specifically to showcase props and costumes designed by Kenner. The movies were just long toy commercials.

But yes, I have heard a lot of homophobic slurs about Shumaker in regards to the movies, mostly concerning the many close-up shots of Bat-butts and Robin-crotches in the films.

I don't think he's "the scum of the Earth"; I doubt anybody here thinks that. It's a pretty extreme bit of hyperbole. The man is no Pol Pot or Milosovec; he just made a couple of really shitty movies.

[EdContradictory]

Isn't Falling Down just "angry white guy gets angrier?"

My wife loves St. Elmo's Fire.

[Don Yoyo]

I've never heard anything homophobic against the Schumacher Batman movies.

People certainly mocks the apparent way his sexuality and flamboyant personality were brought into the movie though (the bat-nipples, as they call them).


But yeah now that I think about it, Schumaker is alot like Jerry Bruckheimer in that his films can be inconsistent, the only difference is that I think Bruckheimer has yet to be affiliated with something so awful as those Batman films.

Yeah, but it's like Schumacher did everything in his power to bring all the heat and blame on his person : "Blame the director, blame me, nobody else worked on that movie, the actors were me disguised, I wrote the movie by myself, it is a one-person achievement!" :lol: This was of course exaggerated, he just said the first sentence.

You gotta love :
Fan : "You ruined Batman!!"
Schumacher : "I KNOW!"

[The Beast Of Yucca Flats]

For me to think he was The Scum Of The Earth, wouldn't I have to actually think about him first?

Oh, and still be 15?

[Jim Ritchey]

Other than his penchant for Bat Nipples, I really don't have all that many problems with him--other than his movies seem to be either fairly good or really horrible. The Lost Boys was shallow and overrated, and I suspect he's a bit of a knob.
Despised his Bat Films--butThe Number 23 is the most pretentious (to the point of self-parody), pathetic, not deliberately funny thing I've ever seen.

[Thequeerjock]

People certainly mock the apparent way his sexuality and flamboyant personality were brought into the movie though (the bat-nipples, as they call them).

When the showed Clerks (the short lived cartoon) on Cartoon Network like last year, I did notice that there was a line where one of the characters goes up to Schumacher and says "Dude, Batman and Robin was SOOOO GAY!"

But yeah, I'm unsure what to make of the Batman line. I can see what BNL means by it being a coded insult toward his sexuality supposedly seeping into the film. It's nothing too nasty, but I think there's a scene where the boy sort of lovingly drifts off while talking about Batman's "Tight rubber body armor" or something, which did kind of make me think of it as a gay jab.

[Ravenwing263]

People like to pretend that Batman & Robin killed the momentum comic book/Super-Hero movies had been making since Superman: The Motion Picture, and that the genre had to be resurrected by X-Men. This is deeply silly, because X-Men came out like three years after Batman & Robin.

His "Batman" films were still terrible, yes, but not any more terrible then Superman III or Superman IV: The Quest for Peace or the theatrical version of Daredevil or Elektra or Ghost Rider or the Fantastic Four films.

I do think his "sexy Batman" interpretation has inspired a lot of hate that he would not have gotten if he made an equally terrible movie that was more bland like the other terrible comic movies I've listed instead of gay.

[Jim Ritchey]

Ravenwing,
I actually don't think Batman Forever was any worse than Burton's efforts. Not saying a lot. 'Begins' was the first time I've liked Batman in another medium besides comics AT ALL--at least, since I was 5 (still liked Star Trek TOS better).

And I really, REALLY do like The FFs, Daredevil, and Ghost Rider better than Batman and Robin. Electra was just too boring to even call it film.

[Ravenwing263]

All of those are fair opinions, but I disagree real strongly.

I actually adore the Burton films, and I think Batman Returns is better then Batman Begins, although Burton's first Batman is the least of the four "good" "Batman" movies and The Dark Knight is the best of the four.

[stealthwise]

Batman and Robin out-camps everything before it or since. It is a vortex where quality goes to die and money gets poured into an infinite hole of neon failure.

Phone Booth was ok for what it was.

Falling Down is good, but not in a "I want to see it ever again" kind of way. Michael Douglas really takes the tragic role and does the best he can with it.

[The Mandarin]

I find even his better work to be...I dunno...plastic? Generic? I'm not sure I can find the right word for it, but I know I don't like it. He is by no means the scum of the earth, but he is a mediocre director even on his good days.

[MacQuarrie]

I gotta say, the title of this thread is a great example of a loaded statement. Who says Joel Schumaker is the scum of the Earth? Who has ever said that?

I should think that a term like "scum of the Earth" would be reserved for truly evil people like Fred Phelps, Kim Jong Il, any number of oppressive dictators.... but a mediocre movie director? Even if he made one of the shittiest superhero movies in history, that hardly qualifies him to be "scum of the Earth," and characterizing his critics that way is, frankly, insulting.

Maybe we can dial back the hyperbole a little bit?

[stealthwise]

I gotta say, the title of this thread is a great example of a loaded statement. Who says Joel Schumaker is the scum of the Earth? Who has ever said that?

I should think that a term like "scum of the Earth" would be reserved for truly evil people like Fred Phelps, Kim Jong Il, any number of oppressive dictators.... but a mediocre movie director? Even if he made one of the shittiest superhero movies in history, that hardly qualifies him to be "scum of the Earth," and characterizing his critics that way is, frankly, insulting.

Maybe we can dial back the hyperbole a little bit?

I don't know, can we?

Can that movie stop RAPING MY CHILDHOOD?

Can you stop spending HOURS on your post making your point, comparing everyone who hates him to HITLER?

CAN YOU?



(It's... it's obvious I'm using hyperbole here, right?)

[ZimMan2]

I gotta say, the title of this thread is a great example of a loaded statement. Who says Joel Schumaker is the scum of the Earth? Who has ever said that?

I should think that a term like "scum of the Earth" would be reserved for truly evil people like Fred Phelps, Kim Jong Il, any number of oppressive dictators.... but a mediocre movie director? Even if he made one of the shittiest superhero movies in history, that hardly qualifies him to be "scum of the Earth," and characterizing his critics that way is, frankly, insulting.

Maybe we can dial back the hyperbole a little bit?

I have to question how long you've been on the internet for. ;)

[Infra-Man]

Hyperbole is seriously the worst fucking thing ever in the history of the entire universe.

[suedenim]

I find even his better work to be...I dunno...plastic? Generic? I'm not sure I can find the right word for it, but I know I don't like it. He is by no means the scum of the earth, but he is a mediocre director even on his good days.

"Flat," maybe. I think his movies have a bit of a "one thing follows another, then another, etc." feel to them, with no particular scene having more dramatic punch than another.

Which paradoxically worked great for Falling Down.

[MacQuarrie]

I have to question how long you've been on the internet for. ;)

Since 1992, actually. Which is really the problem. Before there was a World Wide Web, when the majority of internet users were university professors, government researchers, the military and business professionals, before AOL brought a lot of people online who really shouldn't be there, discussion online was pretty intelligent and civil. It's only since children who can't read or write got access that the current situation took root.

I don't care to accept "Junior High School Playground" as the default level for conversation.

[shrike]

I have no beef with Joel.

Now, Michael Bay, however, comes across like a total douche.

[ZimMan2]

Hyperbole is seriously the worst fucking thing ever in the history of the entire universe.
http://gallery.zzq.org/d/70941-1/fry-see-what-you-did-there.jpg


Since 1992, actually. Which is really the problem. Before there was a World Wide Web, when the majority of internet users were university professors, government researchers, the military and business professionals, before AOL brought a lot of people online who really shouldn't be there, discussion online was pretty intelligent and civil. It's only since children who can't read or write got access that the current situation took root.

I don't care to accept "Junior High School Playground" as the default level for conversation.

The idea that this was once the norm is something I simply can't wrap my head around.

And in case you still can't tell, I am taking a jab at the hyperbolic mentality that is prevalent in most of the internet.

[shrike]

Since 1992, actually. Which is really the problem. Before there was a World Wide Web, when the majority of internet users were university professors, government researchers, the military and business professionals, before AOL brought a lot of people online who really shouldn't be there, discussion online was pretty intelligent and civil. It's only since children who can't read or write got access that the current situation took root.

I don't care to accept "Junior High School Playground" as the default level for conversation.

Oh, my god, whatever.

I totally saw a thread regarding eating dead babies in here yesterday. What isn't intelligent about that??

[Teal_Lantern]

I have no beef with Joel.

Now, Michael Bay, however, comes across like a total douche.

For me it's Uwe Bole.

[bert]

For me it's Uwe Bole.

Viewing "House of the Dead" actually made me have to vomit in the theatre.

yeah. .

[Teal_Lantern]

Viewing "House of the Dead" actually made me have to vomit in the theatre.

yeah. .

Even if he was a great director, his whole "challenge people who dislike you into a boxing match because you know they can't beat you than chicken out when someone who can actually box challenges you" routine is just so off putting.