Do you care about the comics industry?

[Barry Hollifield]

I do. I've loved this hobby for over 35 years now and hate seeing the state that it's in now.These are tough times all over and several industries are suffering....just like the furniture industry, which is what I do for a living. I try promoting comics everywhere I can...on Facebook..at work..anywhere I can,just because I don't want to see this fun hobby go away,and it may never,but I just want to do my part.
Honestly....with my hours at work cut,I can't afford to buy as many comics as I want.I bought 11 titles yesterday and spent over $40.00 (which was all I could afford sadly),but there were many more I wanted,but had to pass up,but at least there are great comics out there,and if I can't buy them,maybe I can turn someone else on to them,and they can. Anyways...this may sound stupid to some of you guys and gals out there,and I'm sure some of you will have some sarcastic remarks,but I don't give a shit.I just hope comics will stay around for many,many years! NUFF SAID!

[costello]

I do.

Right now, I can only spending money on priority items like food, shelter, and transportation. I got sucked into the Fantastic Four #587 hype, and if I had the money I would've bought a copy, but real life set in. Plus, I figured I'd let someone who really wanted the book to have it.

I've learned that kids who haven't been exposed to comics don't necessarily need to be exposed to the most current comics. Runaways, the BKV issues, are still relevant and the kids love them, so I lend those books out all the time. Ultimate Spider-Man is another comic that keeps getting passed around. So while I can't buy anything, I do know my kids are buying Spider-Man and Runaways stuff. Last year was different. Every week I'd go to the store and buy $40 worth of new releases. It just wasn't worth it, because books could be hit-or-miss with the audience. Also, most of the books either confused the kids because of continuity, or my superiors frowned on them because of the adult nature, situations, and violence. So I quit the weekly spending and the kids are reading the graphic novels and comics I purchased throughout the years.

It's funny. When I was a kid I worried about the condition of comics and the graphic novels and how they looked on the shelves. Now, the wear and tear doesn't bother me, and most of my books are at work instead of in boxes in the closet. I tell the kids to be careful because the book needs to remain readable--not because the book is an investment. Those days are long gone.

[Barry Hollifield]

Costello: I hope things get better for you soon Man. Money is tight for me too,but a little better than it was a couple of years ago.

[HeroBoy]

This is a great question.

I post over on the Adam Carolla message board as well, and there seems to be a continued bitching post over there that I contribute too as well. I think Adam Carolla is a funny man, and I think the show he puts on is great, real funny, and he has branched out to launch a line of shows I can respect, some more so than others. However, the branding, behind the scene shit that goes on is so awful, so shocking that people are in a position to make such horrible decisions, I stopped buying Carolla products to support the cause. The people behind the scenes managed to mismanage their product, a GOOD product, so badly, that financial, I couldn't support that.

I continue to download the podcasts, I do. Yell at me for that all you want. I don't buy any premiums any more, even the ones I REALLY want to, like the Basic Cable Commentaries, because these people, after 2 years of offers, suggestions, and attempts by fans (which have been ignored) have failed to improve their product in the most rudimentary way. I do not feel like I should support wilful ignorance, a contempt for fans, and worse, insular thinking---they have the Carollatards, as they are called, and those people will support the product enough without any real change.

I feel the same way about the current trend in comic books. I feel the managment doesn't care about bringing in new readers, and instead, is content to nickel and dime "faboys" as they are called, to continue the rot in the industry. I still buy graphic novels, and read news on websites. But my days of collecting monthlys has been done. The last one I did so with was BKV Runaways. I miss Walking Dead and Ultimate Spidey on a monthly basis, but I buy those in trades, and the wait truly isn't that long anymore.

I have tried, in my 22 and 1/2 years of buying comics (been buying since first allowance at 5 years old) to support and help the industry---but in turn, I do feel like I'm still just treated as a fanboy by those up top.

And really, what hit home for me, was what someone said on the BenBo a while back---I gave up crussading for the floppies. Comics will exist as some form of stroy telling with or without my support.

*this is not to say by the creators, persay, as clearly there are talent like Bendis, Slott, Fabian Nicezia, Patrick Zircher, Ethan, Gail, and several, several others who truly love their fans, and are clearly, CLEARLY fans of comics as well.

[DaveCummings]

This is a great question.

I post over on the Adam Carolla message board as well, and there seems to be a continued bitching post over there that I contribute too as well. I think Adam Carolla is a funny man, and I think the show he puts on is great, real funny, and he has branched out to launch a line of shows I can respect, some more so than others. However, the branding, behind the scene shit that goes on is so awful, so shocking that people are in a position to make such horrible decisions, I stopped buying Carolla products to support the cause. The people behind the scenes managed to mismanage their product, a GOOD product, so badly, that financial, I couldn't support that.

I continue to download the podcasts, I do. Yell at me for that all you want. I don't buy any premiums any more, even the ones I REALLY want to, like the Basic Cable Commentaries, because these people, after 2 years of offers, suggestions, and attempts by fans (which have been ignored) have failed to improve their product in the most rudimentary way. I do not feel like I should support wilful ignorance, a contempt for fans, and worse, insular thinking---they have the Carollatards, as they are called, and those people will support the product enough without any real change.

I feel the same way about the current trend in comic books. I feel the managment doesn't care about bringing in new readers, and instead, is content to nickel and dime "faboys" as they are called, to continue the rot in the industry. I still buy graphic novels, and read news on websites. But my days of collecting monthlies has been done. The last one I did so with was BKV Runaways. I miss Walking Dead and Ultimate Spidey on a monthly basis, but I buy those in trades, and the wait truly isn't that long anymore.

I have tried, in my 22 and 1/2 years of buying comics (been buying since first allowance at 5 years old) to support and help the industry---but in turn, I do feel like I'm still just treated as a fanboy by those up top.

And really, what hit home for me, was what someone said on the BenBo a while back---I gave up crusading for the floppies. Comics will exist as some form of storytelling with or without my support.

*this is not to say by the creators, per se, as clearly there are talent like Bendis, Slott, Fabian Nicezia, Patrick Zircher, Ethan, Gail, and several, several others who truly love their fans, and are clearly, CLEARLY fans of comics as well.





I disagree. I do think the "management" is interested in bringing in new readers. However, it's not as easy as people think. There's no magic bullet that's going to bring in hordes of new readers with fistfuls of cash. I still think that a major problem the industry suffers from has less to do with the companies product, and more to do with the mentality of the preexisting fanbase. I've seen way too many fans that are standoffish and almost hostile towards the idea of a new fan.

But me, I'm in the mentality that I think that we're currently not in a "sky is falling" moment, I do think that we are on the cusp of a massive shift in the way we think of comics. I think the next year or 2 will bring about a lot of changes.

[Barry Hollifield]

[QUOTE=DaveCummings;7509377] I've seen way too many fans that are standoffish and almost hostile towards the idea of a new fan.

I actually heard a comic store owner COMPLAIN that non-comic fans were coming in to buy Fantastic Four death issue.Couldn't believe it.

[dasNdanger]

When I first started reading comics a couple years back - yes, I cared. Now that I've had a taste of what comics have to offer, I don't care nearly as much. Maybe it's because I really would love to see an end to individual issues, and switch over to gn/tpb format. I just like it so much better, and I think I'd actually be reading more comics than I do now. I'm getting impatient waiting for an entire arc to come out, so there's a lot of stuff I pass up and eventually stop caring about (because now it's old news) by the time it comes out in trade. I would certainly do more impulse buying if everything was in trade, especially for mini series.

I have no idea if I answered the question, or not. :p I guess I care about the industry enough to wish they'd switch entirely over to trade format.


das

[HeroBoy]

I disagree. I do think the "management" is interested in bringing in new readers. However, it's not as easy as people think. There's no magic bullet that's going to bring in hordes of new readers with fistfuls of cash. I still think that a major problem the industry suffers from has less to do with the companies product, and more to do with the mentality of the preexisting fanbase. I've seen way too many fans that are standoffish and almost hostile towards the idea of a new fan.

But me, I'm in the mentality that I think that we're currently not in a "sky is falling" moment, I do think that we are on the cusp of a massive shift in the way we think of comics. I think the next year or 2 will bring about a lot of changes.

Thank you for the spelling and grammar corrections, I really should start spell checking before posting I suppose...

As for the bolded portion---I tried saying something similar. I do not think the sky is falling, either. As I said, COMICS, will exist in some format, and that's not going away. I'm curious, though, what changes do you see happening in the next 2 years or so? Certainly it can't just be digital copies?

[xyzzy]

By industry, we're talking direct market, Diamond, big two, right?

I do not care. At least, not to the extent that I would try to do anything to help it. I buy what I want, how I want. If that's not enough, then it deserves to fail.

[DaveCummings]

I don't know about anyone else,but I care enough about comics to try to ensure that the books I want to see get out there.

[modungo]

I love comics. They've brought alot of good times to me. Most of my best friends are comic friends. However it seems weird to me that worrying about the state of the comic industry has become an essential part of being a comic fan. I can't get on board for that. the comic industry doesn't lose any sleep over me. The comic industry has priced itself to the point where its a hobby I can't afford. They have options they aren't really using to get me comics at an affordable price. They are not really worried about Jason. So Jason's not really gonna worry about them.

I still buy a few books. I still wanna buy more. They'll either do something about this or they won't.

[DAVE]

I love comics, and the quality of books right now.

[Barry Hollifield]

I love comics. They've brought alot of good times to me. Most of my best friends are comic friends. However it seems weird to me that worrying about the state of the comic industry has become an essential part of being a comic fan. I can't get on board for that. the comic industry doesn't lose any sleep over me. The comic industry has priced itself to the point where its a hobby I can't afford. They have options they aren't really using to get me comics at an affordable price. They are not really worried about Jason. So Jason's not really gonna worry about them.

I still buy a few books. I still wanna buy more. They'll either do something about this or they won't.

I agree about the prices.I could buy so many more titles if they were cheaper.I bought about 11 comics yesterday,but there were like 10 more I wouldv'e bought ,but just couldn't afford them.

[DaveCummings]

I agree about the prices.I could buy so many more titles if they were cheaper.I bought about 11 comics yesterday,but there were like 10 more I wouldv'e bought ,but just couldn't afford them.


That's why I switched to just tpbs. Since doing so, I found myself buying more titles and trying them out than I would of when I was buying singles then going to tpbs

[dEnny!]

I do.

Right now, I can only spending money on priority items like food, shelter, and transportation. I got sucked into the Fantastic Four #587 hype, and if I had the money I would've bought a copy, but real life set in. Plus, I figured I'd let someone who really wanted the book to have it.

I've learned that kids who haven't been exposed to comics don't necessarily need to be exposed to the most current comics. Runaways, the BKV issues, are still relevant and the kids love them, so I lend those books out all the time. Ultimate Spider-Man is another comic that keeps getting passed around. So while I can't buy anything, I do know my kids are buying Spider-Man and Runaways stuff. Last year was different. Every week I'd go to the store and buy $40 worth of new releases. It just wasn't worth it, because books could be hit-or-miss with the audience. Also, most of the books either confused the kids because of continuity, or my superiors frowned on them because of the adult nature, situations, and violence. So I quit the weekly spending and the kids are reading the graphic novels and comics I purchased throughout the years.

It's funny. When I was a kid I worried about the condition of comics and the graphic novels and how they looked on the shelves. Now, the wear and tear doesn't bother me, and most of my books are at work instead of in boxes in the closet. I tell the kids to be careful because the book needs to remain readable--not because the book is an investment. Those days are long gone.

May I ask where you work, as in what you do for a living, not specific organization?

[dEnny!]

By industry, we're talking direct market, Diamond, big two, right?

I do not care. At least, not to the extent that I would try to do anything to help it. I buy what I want, how I want. If that's not enough, then it deserves to fail.

I wouldn't limit the term "industry" to the Big Two. Comics industry to me includes all of the creator-owned titles, the Oni Press, D&Q, Fantagraphics, Pantheon, AdHouse, Top Shelf and of course Image, Dark Horse, and IDW.

[dEnny!]

When I first started reading comics a couple years back - yes, I cared. Now that I've had a taste of what comics have to offer, I don't care nearly as much. Maybe it's because I really would love to see an end to individual issues, and switch over to gn/tpb format. I just like it so much better, and I think I'd actually be reading more comics than I do now. I'm getting impatient waiting for an entire arc to come out, so there's a lot of stuff I pass up and eventually stop caring about (because now it's old news) by the time it comes out in trade. I would certainly do more impulse buying if everything was in trade, especially for mini series.

I have no idea if I answered the question, or not. :p I guess I care about the industry enough to wish they'd switch entirely over to trade format.


das

I don't think it has to be an either/or situation. The individual issues give people a regular fix, it pays for a lot of the costs to generate the product, and then you collect it, if it's quality is high enough you release a hardcover, maybe even a premium collection (Absolute/Omnibus) and even offer digitally.

I would hope that this reaches a larger group of people who prefer their product in different ways.

Everyone doesn't consume this product the same way.

[Jim Schnobrich]

I care insomuch as I want to be able to continue to read new comics.

[bartleby]

I care but not to the extent that I'm going to change my spending habits or otherwise go out of my way to help save the industry.

[Artie Pink]

I care about it, but I don't feel any responsibility towards it if that's what you're getting at.

I love comics, most of my disposable income goes towards new issues and back issues, as well as outstanding collections and action figures and statues.

I think there are great new comics being done. There's a generation of creators that are taking the best of comics' history and having a lot of fun.

But I also think there's a lot of greed and a lot of crap being churned out. And when I think of classic comics, classic comic runs and classic work by classic creators, none of them are beholden to the continuity of their day. Stern's Spidey is stand-alone. Perez' Avengers, Miller's DD - none of them were part of a crappy crossover.

I'm always on the lookout for back issues with great characters and villains and guest-stars. I get just as much fun out of that as I do new comics. Maybe more. Though I've mined the 80s and 70's (and any affordable 60's) pretty well by now.

I wish both Marvel and DC would amp up their Silver and Bronze age reprint programs. I love Marvel Masterworks.

As for my buying habits, online all the way. My LCS just can't compete price-wise or selection-wise. I don't need a crusty LCS owner imposing his tastes on me. I'm capable of browsing online and seeking out my own answers. I'd rather save $50 a week and have better comics.

[HeroBoy]

http://amarieadhis.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/george-bush-kanye-west-statement.jpg

President Bush Doesn't Care About The Comics Industry.

[xyzzy]

I wouldn't limit the term "industry" to the Big Two. Comics industry to me includes all of the creator-owned titles, the Oni Press, D&Q, Fantagraphics, Pantheon, AdHouse, Top Shelf and of course Image, Dark Horse, and IDW.

Doesn't change how I feel about it. I buy what I want in the manner I want. If the industry can't get by on that, that's just too bad.

[mario]

[QUOTE=DaveCummings;7509377] I've seen way too many fans that are standoffish and almost hostile towards the idea of a new fan.

I actually heard a comic store owner COMPLAIN that non-comic fans were coming in to buy Fantastic Four death issue.Couldn't believe it.

Well, how do one-off customers/speculators buying multiple copies of one overhyped comic advance the comic industry and the long term sales of your retailer?

[Jef UK]

I disagree. I do think the "management" is interested in bringing in new readers. However, it's not as easy as people think. There's no magic bullet that's going to bring in hordes of new readers with fistfuls of cash.

Well said.

Of course Marvel and DC want new readers, and attempt to bring them in. To think otherwise is complete nonsense.

[dEnny!]

Well said.

Of course Marvel and DC want new readers, and attempt to bring them in. To think otherwise is complete nonsense.

I was expecting an image of your comic...

[HeroBoy]

Well said.

Of course Marvel and DC want new readers, and attempt to bring them in. To think otherwise is complete nonsense.

They certainly do not show any clear attempts to. Stories are insular and dependant of past knowledge, marketing is nowhere, and I have no clue why I should buy a kid a comicbook instead of video game other than the reason that *I* love comics.

[Jef UK]

Saying comics will go away is like saying music will go away.

[Marcdachamp]

Yep. I want to work in the industry.

[Jim Schnobrich]

I care but not to the extent that I'm going to change my spending habits or otherwise go out of my way to help save the industry.

Me too. I spend money on comics. What the hell else does the industry expect me to do?

[HeroBoy]

Saying comics will go away is like saying music will go away.

And I haven't seen anyone do that in this thread so far...

[bartleby]

They certainly do not show any clear attempts to. Stories are insular and dependant of past knowledge

Pretty much has always been the case. Definitely was when I started reasoning. Part of the fun of comic books is going back and figuring out all that history you've missed.



marketing is nowhere,

Marketing is expensive. Yeah, Marvel and DC want to bring in new readers. But they don't want to spend more money to bring in new readers than those readers will spend on comics.



and I have no clue why I should buy a kid a comicbook instead of video game other than the reason that *I* love comics.

Is there an answer to that problem? You don't seem to be able to verbalize yourself. It's not really an idea that the comic industry can necessarily sell. I think trying to convince kids that comic books are better than video games is a losing endeavor. It was a tough sell 20 or 30 years ago, and video games have improved by leaps and bounds in the time since then in a way that comic books really can't.

[dEnny!]

Saying comics will go away is like saying music will go away.

Could some of the music I hear go away?

[Jef UK]

. Stories are insular and dependant of past knowledge.

From Marvel: the Astonishing line, the Marvel knights line, the long runs of Captain America and Amazing Spider-Man and Fantastic Four and Invincible Iron Man, and Daredevil that were all for the most part crossover free in the last few years. Frankencastle. Aaron's Ghost Rider. Aaron's Weapon X. Brubaker and Fraction's Iron Fist. Incredible Hercules. Etc. etc.

Not to mention the hundreds and hundreds of trades in print of whatever material you're nostalgic about that you could still hand a kid (and that was just as enriched by knowledge of continuity, but we still somehow managed).

Not to mention all the other publishers out there who aren't Marvel or DC making excellent comics every month, for people of all ages in every genre.

So what's the problem with content?

As to marketing: did you succesfully avoid the Fantastic Four spoilers from the mainstream press? Did you see Iron Man 2? Do you own a Batman t-shirt you bought from Target? Have you bought a Slurpee with the Hulk on it? Have you watched Super Hero Squad? Did you read about Mayor Bloomberg announcing Peter Parker being hired on his staff? Have you bought a USA today with a classic Amazing Spider-Man comic bundled inside? Etc. etc. etc.

[Jef UK]

And I haven't seen anyone do that in this thread so far...

For the inference impaired, I'll rephrase: worrying that comics will go away is like worrying that music will go away.

[The Dean]

I own 10% of an LCS and I'm very concerned about the comic book industry.

Things are changing. Everything from buying habits, how people buy, expectations, loyalty to certain companies and characters, gluttony of a certain character... Here are some of my thoughts.

1. Going digital. Personally, I'm not a fan of this format because I love "collecting" the comic. Plus, I like to have a physical copy in my hands, even if it means that I've 15+ longboxes in my home. Even the smell of a new comic (or an old Silver Age title) stirs something in me that an e-copy of a comic doesn't do. As a retailer, I know we loose customers and/or sales to digital downloads, whether it's from the company selling a digital copy or pirates with illegal scans.

2. Readers vs Collectors. Collecting comics seems to be a fading hobby and more and more people who buy comics are just readers. They want trades, HCs, omnibuses, and even digital downloads. For many of these readers, the enjoyment of the hobby comes purely from the entertainment of reading the story and not owning a mint condition copy and having a complete set. That means we are loosing the weekly shoppers to customers who are trade waiting. However, Silver Age fans are making a stand and services like CGC have helped in the "collectors" market.

3. Gluttony of appearance. As a retailer, I often find myself yelling at the Previews catalog because how many more Green Hornet, Deadpool, Batman, Green Lantern, and Avengers titles can we carry? Our customers are very reliable about picking up the "flagship" title, like Captain America, but it's hit and miss with all of the offshoots and minis, making ordering difficult and also annoys our customers. We have 54 people on the pull list for Captain America and order about seven more copies for the shelf. We have no one who has Captain America: Fighting Avenger on their pull list and we have 11 of our 15 copies still on the shelf. Those 11 unsold Cap titles are going to crowd our back issues bins and cut into our bottom line. On the flipside, our Green Lantern and Deadpool fans are rabid and are buying everything.

Our store's sales have trended downward for the past two years. Luckily, we also carry games like Warhammer, Magic and other card, mini and roleplaying games to keep us up and running. Digital downloads and online retailers who have steep discounts and much lower overhead are eroding our comic book sales and our ability to keep the doors open.

[bartleby]

2. Readers vs Collectors. Collecting comics seems to be a fading hobby and more and more people who buy comics are just readers. They want trades, HCs, omnibuses, and even digital downloads. For many of these readers, the enjoyment of the hobby comes purely from the entertainment of reading the story and not owning a mint condition copy and having a complete set. That means we are loosing the weekly shoppers to customers who are trade waiting. However, Silver Age fans are making a stand and services like CGC have helped in the "collectors" market.

Not only that, but you're losing the people who might buy two or three or more copies of the same book for speculation purposes. Those books that were selling a million copies in the '90s weren't being bought by a million people.

[Alexander Hamilton]

Short answer: Yes.. Very much.

Long Answer: I worry about it in the sense that I worry about folks in the industry that might lose their jobs over the coming changes in the market. I worry about comic shop owners who are closing their doors. I worry about the next few years of growing pains that will come due to the changes in distribution and format.

What I don't worry about, is comics as a medium. They will still continue to get made. They will continue to be read and enjoyed. Yes, we may be seeing lull based on the current standard of distribution, but that is expected when every entertainment industry is having to learn how to deal with current internet era and still be profitable. Someone will figure it out. It will not likely be you or I, and it won't look like what we expect it to, but it will work itself out. There IS a way to make money with this product.

[Jef UK]

Short answer: Yes.. Very much.

Long Answer: I worry about it in the sense that I worry about folks in the industry that might lose their jobs over the coming changes in the market. I worry about comic shop owners who are closing their doors. I worry about the next few years of growing pains that will come due to the changes in distribution and format.

What I don't worry about, is comics as a medium. They will still continue to get made. They will continue to be read and enjoyed. Yes, we may be seeing lull based on the current standard of distribution, but that is expected when every entertainment industry is having to learn how to deal with current internet era and still be profitable. Someone will figure it out. It will not likely be you or I, and it won't look like what we expect it to, but it will work itself out. There IS a way to make money with this product.

Aaron's a smart man.

[HeroBoy]

Pretty much has always been the case. Definitely was when I started reasoning. Part of the fun of comic books is going back and figuring out all that history you've missed.

Right, but back then there was probably a little star with a helpful editor telling you, "Hey, True Believer! Spidey Last Fought The Lizard in issue 375, but your already bought that Holo-Cover, Spider-Friends!"

There was a road map, certainly. Even if you jumped into a story in the middle of an arc, the first two pages were the leads recaping what happened before. With the advent of Trade Waiting, this has slowly starting fading away as well.

But I'll concede, the history has always been a part of fun of comic books, because, hell, I agree. I just think that history could be friendlier.



Marketing is expensive. Yeah, Marvel and DC want to bring in new readers. But they don't want to spend more money to bring in new readers than those readers will spend on comics.

You spend money to make money. I care about me enjoying the comics, but I grow tired of us, the consumer, having to be the main marketing force for these pamphlets.




Is there an answer to that problem? You don't seem to be able to verbalize yourself. It's not really an idea that the comic industry can necessarily sell. I think trying to convince kids that comic books are better than video games is a losing endeavor. It was a tough sell 20 or 30 years ago, and video games have improved by leaps and bounds in the time since then in a way that comic books really can't.


I think I'm verbalizing just fine---I have issues with the industry. I feel a lot of damage it has done, it has done to itself. I am not here to fix it or suggest that I know how. Again, it's not my job to do so. The question proposed was if I care about the comics industry, and I simply said, I did. Now I don't. I feel the mess they have gotten themselves into is their own doing, and I've grown up, I have more pressing things to concern myself with.

Do I care about comics? Absolutely. I enjoy them..

Do I care about the comics industry? I find very little reason to do so.

[HeroBoy]

For the inference impaired, I'll rephrase: worrying that comics will go away is like worrying that music will go away.

There's not an eye rolling icon big enough...

[HeroBoy]

Not to mention all the other publishers out there who aren't Marvel or DC making excellent comics every month, for people of all ages in every genre.


I will agree with this, and when I try to encourage new readers, I almost always start with something like Blankets, Scott Pilgrim or Walking Dead, personally...

[Jef UK]

Marketing is expensive. Yeah, Marvel and DC want to bring in new readers. But they don't want to spend more money to bring in new readers than those readers will spend on comics.

Also, it's stupid to buy, say, televised commercials when you have Avengers cartoons, Spider-Man cartoons, Batman cartoons, Watchmen movies, Scott Pilgrim movies, etc. etc. etc. There's no need for print ads when USA today spoils Fantastic Four, interviews Nick Spencer every week, or carries Spider-Man comics bundled inside, etc. etc. etc.

Also, there's this thing called the internet.

[bartleby]

Right, but back then there was probably a little star with a helpful editor telling you, "Hey, True Believer! Spidey Last Fought The Lizard in issue 375, but your already bought that Holo-Cover, Spider-Friends!"

There was a road map, certainly. Even if you jumped into a story in the middle of an arc, the first two pages were the leads recaping what happened before. With the advent of Trade Waiting, this has slowly starting fading away as well.

And today, we've got recap pages that are far more useful at that.



You spend money to make money. I care about me enjoying the comics, but I grow tired of us, the consumer, having to be the main marketing force for these pamphlets.

But you don't spend more money than you can expect to make. People always talk about wanting to see commercials for comic books on TV. But you're just not going to get the value out of what you spend for that.



I think I'm verbalizing just fine

I was speaking about verbalizing what you love about comic books. It's not something that can easily be put into a sales pitch to entice someone who's never read a comic book.

[Jef UK]

Batman cartoons are the commercials for comic books.

[HeroBoy]

Also, it's stupid to buy, say, televised commercials when you have Avengers cartoons, Spider-Man cartoons, Batman cartoons, Watchmen movies, Scott Pilgrim movies, etc. etc. etc. There's no need for print ads when USA today spoils Fantastic Four, interviews Nick Spencer every week, or carries Spider-Man comics bundled inside, etc. etc. etc.

Also, there's this thing called the internet.

I can not stress, at all, how many parents do not know that these exist in comic book forms as well. How hard would it be to throw in a ten second spot at the end of Avengers saying "More Avengers stories can be found monthly in The Mighty Avengers!"

[Jef UK]

Seriously, Aaron is the one who has framed the questions and concerns correctly. These notions of content and marketing are not the problem.

[EmarAndZeb]

I care inasmuch as I hope talented creators working today will be able to continue to make a living producing work, and I hope we will continue to get quality stories from the "Big Two" universes, in addition to all the various creator-owned projects which will undoubtedly keep being produced through good times and bad.

As far as the actual delivery mechanism of the product, though, and whether it's in the form of the direct market and the 18 - 24 page floppy magazine on a spinnner rack... no, I'm not married to that.

[bartleby]

Batman cartoons are the commercials for comic books.

Were you not around a few days ago when someone was arguing that comic books were merely advertisements for the movies?

[HeroBoy]

I was speaking about verbalizing what you love about comic books. It's not something that can easily be put into a sales pitch to entice someone who's never read a comic book.

I see. I do suppose it is a very physical medium, that one can't appreciate until actually looking through a comic book. I refuse to believe that means nothing can be done about it though. I don't have the answers though, by any means.

[Jef UK]

I can not stress, at all, how many parents do not know that these exist in comic book forms as well. How hard would it be to throw in a ten second spot at the end of Avengers saying "More Avengers stories can be found monthly in The Mighty Avengers!"

http://blog.newsok.com/nerdage/2009/03/19/watchmen-sales-top-1-million/

http://www.comicsbeat.com/2010/09/17/scott-pilgrims-finest-sales-chart-1-million-in-print/

[HeroBoy]

Seriously, Aaron is the one who has framed the questions and concerns correctly. These notions of content and marketing are not the problem.

But conversation can branch out, correct.

If not, then no, I do not care about the industry any more than I care about the television industry. As long as product is available for me to enjoy, in a way that I can pick and choose what suits me best, I find I should have no desire to look behind the curtain.

[Jim Schnobrich]

As to marketing: did you succesfully avoid the Fantastic Four spoilers from the mainstream press? Did you see Iron Man 2? Do you own a Batman t-shirt you bought from Target? Have you bought a Slurpee with the Hulk on it? Have you watched Super Hero Squad? Did you read about Mayor Bloomberg announcing Peter Parker being hired on his staff? Have you bought a USA today with a classic Amazing Spider-Man comic bundled inside? Etc. etc. etc.

I sometimes wonder if promotion like that does a lot to drive people to actual comics, though. A purely anecdotal example:

A lot of people saw Iron Man and The Dark Knight. They love the characters but never bother to read a comic book because they get their fix through the movies.

Another example is my old co-worker who loved Marvel and DC characters but didn't read comics because he watched all the cartoons and movies. That was enough for him.


I mean, I would love it if the success of those films had brought in a lot of new readers but I'm skeptical that situation really happened.

[Jef UK]

Also, it's not easy to make a living as an artist, yes.

And of course anything can be improved upon.

An aside: are the people who complain about convoluted continuity the same who complain that there are too many mini-series that undersell because of their lack of ties with continuity?

I believe and agree with Dusty's point about glutting the market with series about the same character, but aren't so many of those titles a direct address to the supposed problem of insular comics with too much continuity?

[HeroBoy]

http://blog.newsok.com/nerdage/2009/03/19/watchmen-sales-top-1-million/

http://www.comicsbeat.com/2010/09/17/scott-pilgrims-finest-sales-chart-1-million-in-print/

You give me exceptions, congratulations.

And one of those things is "the greatest comics story of all time" so anyone who has any knowledge of comics knows to seek it out.

The other is something marketed towards hipster "kids" (more like teenagers to young adults) who look for things marketed to them and are savy enough to use the internet.

The 6 year old who loves the Avengers cartoon won't know it's a comic, and why would he? He's not going to look it up online, he may visit the TV stations website to play some shitty flash game, but thats about it for post show internet searching.

[bartleby]

How hard would it be to throw in a ten second spot at the end of Avengers saying "More Avengers stories can be found monthly in The Mighty Avengers!"

Because then it feels to the audience that they've been sitting through a 2-hour commercial for some other product. If you were watching a movie, and it ended with a commercial for a video game or action figures based on the movie, what would be your reaction?

[A.Huerta]

Saying comics will go away is like saying music will go away.

The funny thing is Music will never go away, unless it becomes illegal, but it is possible for comics to go away. It's just different.

iTunes, the radio, MJ, Elvis, Beatles, Movies, 2Pac, Shows, Fame, Wealth, American Idol etc. Music just grabs people on a different level, so to compare the 2 doesn't work for me. Comics can go underground for sure, like Hip-Hop has, but it's very possible for it to go extinct. Printing, reading stories (not messegeboards), sequential art, the art form in general, I believe, is a dying one.

But I love comics so much, I will never stop.

[HeroBoy]

Because then it feels to the audience that they've been sitting through a 2-hour commercial for some other product. If you were watching a movie, and it ended with a commercial for a video game or action figures based on the movie, what would be your reaction?

I grew up on GI-Joe, He-Man and Transformers, so I may be the wrong one to ask this question to, but I was thrilled that my enjoyment of these characters didn't have to end at that half hour mark.

[The Dean]

http://blog.newsok.com/nerdage/2009/03/19/watchmen-sales-top-1-million/

http://www.comicsbeat.com/2010/09/17/scott-pilgrims-finest-sales-chart-1-million-in-print/

Yeah, unfortunately, those are the exceptions and not the rule.

Elektra sales never went up. Daredevil sales never went up. Ghost World, Road to Perdition, Kick-Ass...

My LCS only see a blip of a sales bump when these books come out. Ironman, Spidey, Bats, sure, but those were mostly our regular customers who bought the extra titles that were coming out during the blitz that hits just when the movie/TV show hype is at it's peak.

The Scott Pilgrim, Watchmen, and even 300 sales are happening outside of LCSs and not adding new, weekly customers to the fan base.

[Jef UK]

I sometimes wonder if promotion like that does a lot to drive people to actual comics, though. A purely anecdotal example:

A lot of people saw Iron Man and The Dark Knight. They love the characters but never bother to read a comic book because they get their fix through the movies.

Another example is my old co-worker who loved Marvel and DC characters but didn't read comics because he watched all the cartoons and movies. That was enough for him.


I mean, I would love it the success of those films had brought in a lot of new readers but I'm skeptical that situation really happens.

I think a kid knowing who Spider-Man is and having his toys makes him more likely to buy a comic or have a comic bought for him. Meanwhile, so much of the problems people want to address with comic books, are systemic to the entirety of publishing, and a reading culture in general.

And we know for a fact that the Watchmen movie and the Scott Pilgrim got books in the hands of readers in droves. Are there reasons specific to those properties why they performed so well? Sure.

How many monthly comics outsell a New York Times bestselling book every week?

[bartleby]

And one of those things is "the greatest comics story of all time" so anyone who has any knowledge of comics knows to seek it out.

The other is something marketed towards hipster "kids" (more like teenagers to young adults) who look for things marketed to them and are savy enough to use the internet.

But those boosts in sales were done without there a being marketing push for the comic books. There was no "WATCHMEN is based on a comic book on sale now at bookstores everywhere" before, during or after the movie.

I think you don't see it as much with typical superhero movies is because there's just so much product out there. People who saw and liked WATCHMEN all went out and bought one specific book. Same with SCOTT PILGRIM and WAKING DEAD—I'm assuming most people started with the first volume of each. But people who liked IRON MAN and SPIDER-MAN and THE DARK KNIGHT have lots of different product to choose from. There's not a one trade that those audiences all flock to, so the numbers get split. I imagine you'd see a different effect if those movies were adapted from one specific story in the comics. If there was a BATMAN: YEAR ONE or DARK KNIGHT RETURNS movie, sales on those trades would skyrocket.

[artimoff]

When I first started reading comics a couple years back - yes, I cared. Now that I've had a taste of what comics have to offer, I don't care nearly as much. Maybe it's because I really would love to see an end to individual issues, and switch over to gn/tpb format. I just like it so much better, and I think I'd actually be reading more comics than I do now. I'm getting impatient waiting for an entire arc to come out, so there's a lot of stuff I pass up and eventually stop caring about (because now it's old news) by the time it comes out in trade. I would certainly do more impulse buying if everything was in trade, especially for mini series.

I have no idea if I answered the question, or not. :p I guess I care about the industry enough to wish they'd switch entirely over to trade format.


das

I'm a trade waiter, but I wish there was a way to promote single issues more. If Marvel/DC single issues, die comics are dead too.

[HeroBoy]

But those boosts in sales were done without there a being marketing push for the comic books. There was no "WATCHMEN is based on a comic book on sale now at bookstores everywhere" before, during or after the movie.

I think you don't see it as much with typical superhero movies is because there's just so much product out there. People who saw and liked WATCHMEN all went out and bought one specific book. Same with SCOTT PILGRIM and WAKING DEAD—I'm assuming most people started with the first volume of each. But people who liked IRON MAN and SPIDER-MAN and THE DARK KNIGHT have lots of different product to choose from. There's not a one trade that those audiences all flock to, so the numbers get split. I imagine you'd see a different effect if those movies were adapted from one specific story in the comics. If there was a BATMAN: YEAR ONE or DARK KNIGHT RETURNS movie, sales on those trades would skyrocket.


I would bet you are right, but I would also say something about how when the media did reports on Scott Pilgrim or Watchmen, the comic was in the forefront there still.

With The Dark Knight, to me, it seemed to push was on a NEW Chris Nolan film, and Heth Ledger's amazing performance.

[HeroBoy]

I'm a trade waiter, but I wish there was a way to promote single issues more. If Marvel/DC single issues, die comics are dead too.

This, I disagree with. Comics as a medium are not going to die. The format may, but not the medium.

[GelfXIII]

I care about comics and illustrated literature as a concept, but I cant say I particularly care for the "industry".

[Jef UK]

The Scott Pilgrim, Watchmen, and even 300 sales are happening outside of LCSs and not adding new, weekly customers to the fan base.

I know nobody wants comic shops to close, but adding new, weekly customers to the fan base is likely to no longer be the motive of most publishers in upcoming years, if not already. If anything, the success of those 3 books illustrates that very point. We're watching the industry shake free of the chains of Diamond Distribution, to the detriment of comic shop owners who had no choice but to buy into it.

The new model for a spell is likely to be: give away content for free online, maybe get some advertising revenue to mitigate publishing costs, make money on the back end with book sales and Hollywood option money.

I think the deal seen with MTV Geek and Act-i-vate is a good example of the future of providing content for free, with creators making some money. From the creator side of things, living as an artist is always difficult, throughout all of time.

[Jef UK]

There's not a one trade that those audiences all flock to, so the numbers get split. I imagine you'd see a different effect if those movies were adapted from one specific story in the comics. If there was a BATMAN: YEAR ONE or DARK KNIGHT RETURNS movie, sales on those trades would skyrocket.

Yep.

[bartleby]

Yeah, unfortunately, those are the exceptions and not the rule.

Elektra sales never went up. Daredevil sales never went up. Ghost World, Road to Perdition, Kick-Ass...

My LCS only see a blip of a sales bump when these books come out. Ironman, Spidey, Bats, sure, but those were mostly our regular customers who bought the extra titles that were coming out during the blitz that hits just when the movie/TV show hype is at it's peak.

The Scott Pilgrim, Watchmen, and even 300 sales are happening outside of LCSs and not adding new, weekly customers to the fan base.

But you're looking at things solely through the eyes of a comic book specialty store. ELEKTRA and DAREDEVIL, which weren't particularly well liked movies, probably boosted sales of trade paperbacks in bookstores. The new readers that movies are bringing in are mostly buying trades and not buying them at comic book stores. That might not help comic book shops, but it does help the industry.

[Jen Grunwald]

I disagree. I do think the "management" is interested in bringing in new readers. However, it's not as easy as people think. There's no magic bullet that's going to bring in hordes of new readers with fistfuls of cash.

Seriously! How can you POSSIBLY think the "management" (to continue this funny term) would NOT want to bring in new readers?!?!? Are you insane!? New readers=more money! I can tell you from experience that "bringing in new readers" is a CONSTANT topic for discussion. But, yeah, it's REALLY FUCKING HARD. We can talk about how great comics are til we're blue in the face, but the fact is, they're just not as respected as other media. And especially now, people are not as willing to spend they're money to take a chance on something they're not really sure they're into.

What do you think we should do to bring in new readers? (Aside from making them cheaper which just isn't feasible.)

And then when we try to think outside of the box and try new things, we get shit for that too from the hard-core fanboys (and girls)!

The thing people seem to forget about comics is that it's a business just like any other. OF COURSE, making money is the main factor! That's just the way things are!

I have to ask, though...what is so terrible about the state of comics right now? I honestly don't get it. Considering the economy at the moment, I think we're doing pretty well. There are still SO MANY comics out there that I love and enjoy. What exactly are you looking for? (Keep in mind, I don't really read industry news all that often, so I could just be completely ignorant about what's going on with us right now... I just know trades sell pretty well!! hahaha)


:rogue:

[Jen Grunwald]

When I first started reading comics a couple years back - yes, I cared. Now that I've had a taste of what comics have to offer, I don't care nearly as much. Maybe it's because I really would love to see an end to individual issues, and switch over to gn/tpb format. I just like it so much better, and I think I'd actually be reading more comics than I do now. I'm getting impatient waiting for an entire arc to come out, so there's a lot of stuff I pass up and eventually stop caring about (because now it's old news) by the time it comes out in trade. I would certainly do more impulse buying if everything was in trade, especially for mini series.

I have no idea if I answered the question, or not. :p I guess I care about the industry enough to wish they'd switch entirely over to trade format.


das

I don't think an end to individual issues would make you're wait any shorter. We're often putting out trades within weeks of the series being over. It'll still take just as long to make! :)

Also, issue sales help support the series. Without them, I fear a lot of books wouldn't be made. Especially for really new ideas. A lot of people are more inclined to spend $3-4 to try a new ISSUE (and decide if they want to continue) than $20 to try a whole new story. Just sayin'.

Also, I'm sentimental and I would HATE the idea of comics disappearing!! :cry:


:rogue:

[artimoff]

Batman cartoons are the commercials for comic books.

No they're not.

Batman is like Tarzan, an iconic character that lives on in multi media. When I see a batman cartoon I see a cartoon, the idea that he's a character that appears in comics, or that comics exist isn't presented.

[Jen Grunwald]

I do. I've loved this hobby for over 35 years now and hate seeing the state that it's in now.These are tough times all over and several industries are suffering....just like the furniture industry, which is what I do for a living. I try promoting comics everywhere I can...on Facebook..at work..anywhere I can,just because I don't want to see this fun hobby go away,and it may never,but I just want to do my part.
Honestly....with my hours at work cut,I can't afford to buy as many comics as I want.I bought 11 titles yesterday and spent over $40.00 (which was all I could afford sadly),but there were many more I wanted,but had to pass up,but at least there are great comics out there,and if I can't buy them,maybe I can turn someone else on to them,and they can. Anyways...this may sound stupid to some of you guys and gals out there,and I'm sure some of you will have some sarcastic remarks,but I don't give a shit.I just hope comics will stay around for many,many years! NUFF SAID!

It's taking me a lot of effort not to edit your post to add spaces after every comma!!! hahaha Do you do that on purpose? :-P


:rogue:

[Jen Grunwald]

I don't think it has to be an either/or situation. The individual issues give people a regular fix, it pays for a lot of the costs to generate the product, and then you collect it, if it's quality is high enough you release a hardcover, maybe even a premium collection (Absolute/Omnibus) and even offer digitally.

I would hope that this reaches a larger group of people who prefer their product in different ways.

Everyone doesn't consume this product the same way.

Yes! :)


:rogue:

[The Dean]

But you're looking at things solely through the eyes of a comic book specialty store. ELEKTRA and DAREDEVIL, which weren't particularly well liked movies, probably boosted sales of trade paperbacks in bookstores. The new readers that movies are bringing in are mostly buying trades and not buying them at comic book stores. That might not help comic book shops, but it does help the industry.

That's true, I do see things as a LCS owner.

You take away the LCS, the hobby will take a serious plunge in sales. Perhaps regular book stores and newstands can pick up the slack or new media outlets like digital comics would take over. However, the industry still earns it's rent in LCS sales.

[artimoff]

Were you not around a few days ago when someone was arguing that comic books were merely advertisements for the movies?

Comics are a cheep way to create new characters for cartoons, movies & TV, and a way to keep older characters alive in someone's mind. Keeping Superman comics going sells underoos & tumblers.

[Jef UK]

The funny thing is Music will never go away, unless it becomes illegal, but it is possible for comics to go away. It's just different.

iTunes, the radio, MJ, Elvis, Beatles, Movies, 2Pac, Shows, Fame, Wealth, American Idol etc. Music just grabs people on a different level, so to compare the 2 doesn't work for me. Comics can go underground for sure, like Hip-Hop has, but it's very possible for it to go extinct. Printing, reading stories (not messegeboards), sequential art, the art form in general, I believe, is a dying one.

But I love comics so much, I will never stop.

There must be more people making comics right now than anytime in history. There must be more people making a living making comics right now than anytime in history.

[Jen Grunwald]

I wish both Marvel and DC would amp up their Silver and Bronze age reprint programs. I love Marvel Masterworks.

Man! Can't make ANYONE happy! haha ;-)

We're doing SO MUCH better in this department than 10 years ago!


:rogue:

[Jef UK]

No they're not.

Batman is like Tarzan, an iconic character that lives on in multi media. When I see a batman cartoon I see a cartoon, the idea that he's a character that appears in comics, or that comics exist isn't presented.

I already addressed this point.

And also, the point of marketing these days is rarely to sell a specific thing.

[Jen Grunwald]

Me too. I spend money on comics. What the hell else does the industry expect me to do?

I don't think "the industry" expects you to do ANYTHING.


:rogue:

[DAVE]

Is this thread really about caring about the industry, or not being able to afford buying new comics right now because your job isn't paying enough?

[A.Huerta]

There must be more people making comics right now than anytime in history. There must be more people making a living making comics right now than anytime in history.

I actually think less people are drawing/creating now a days. But thats my theory and another subject.

[artimoff]

I can not stress, at all, how many parents do not know that these exist in comic book forms as well. How hard would it be to throw in a ten second spot at the end of Avengers saying "More Avengers stories can be found monthly in The Mighty Avengers!"

There is a law that says you cannot advertise your product durring your show. So no adds for He-man toys durring Masters of the Universe. Congress would considder the show a half hour advert to sell product.

[Adrian B AWESOME]

I cares abouts each and every ones of yous little tinys goofballs.

[DAVE]

There is a law that says you cannot advertise your product durring your show. So no adds for He-man toys durring Masters of the Universe. Congress would considder the show a half hour advert to sell product.

I'm starting to think that Congress doesn't care about the comics industry!

[HeroBoy]

I'm starting to think that Congress doesn't care about the comics industry!

:lol:

Thank you for some levity...

[Jen Grunwald]

I sometimes wonder if promotion like that does a lot to drive people to actual comics, though. A purely anecdotal example:

A lot of people saw Iron Man and The Dark Knight. They love the characters but never bother to read a comic book because they get their fix through the movies.

Another example is my old co-worker who loved Marvel and DC characters but didn't read comics because he watched all the cartoons and movies. That was enough for him.

And those are the people that you're just NOT going to get to read comics. There's NOTHING "the industry" or it's fans can really do about it. Some people just like what they like and that's it.

And I HATE this, but... there are tons of people that just DON'T LIKE to read. I have friends like this and it drives me crazy, but that's just the way it is! They'll go see Iron Man and tell me how much they loved it but they're NEVER going to read the comics. And then there are people like my MOM who would never, EVER read a comic. She just wouldn't. (Except for the fact that now I work for Marvel so she reads ONE comic. Ultimate Spider-Man. haha)


:rogue:

[artimoff]

I actually think less people are drawing/creating now a days. But thats my theory and another subject.

There are more now because someone has to draw the 8 comics a month that Jack Kirby drew, the 3 a month that John Buscema drew, etc. Thank god for Bagley & JRJR.

[Jen Grunwald]

And to answer the original question... I DEFINITELY care about the comics industry b/c it's how I make a living. :-) And I REALLY enjoy it. Which is rare.

Lucky! ^_^


:rogue:

[artimoff]

I already addressed this point.

And also, the point of marketing these days is rarely to sell a specific thing.

I hadn't read that far. :-?

[HeroBoy]

It seems some people want to talk about literacy being down.

Some people just aren't gonna read anymore, sadly.

I wonder if every kid getting a TV in their room since birth hurts comics at all? I remember retreating to my room to just read comic upon comic when I was little---but would I have if I could just watch Spongebob or something?

[A.Huerta]

And those are the people that you're just NOT going to get to read comics. There's NOTHING "the industry" or it's fans can really do about it. Some people just like what they like and that's it.

And I HATE this, but... there are tons of people that just DON'T LIKE to read. I have friends like this and it drives me crazy, but that's just the way it is! They'll go see Iron Man and tell me how much they loved it but they're NEVER going to read the comics. And then there are people like my MOM who would never, EVER read a comic. She just wouldn't. (Except for the fact that now I work for Marvel so she reads ONE comic. Ultimate Spider-Man. haha)


:rogue:

She is right. too right.

[Sarcoidosis]

We're doing SO MUCH better in this department than 10 years ago!
Well yeah, but ten years ago wasn't exactly a high bar to pass.

Don't get me wrong, I love collecting trades (instead of singles), but ten years ago there was no standardization to appeal to collectors, the quality of the binding was quite low and errors in page order or page duplication were common.

By the way, I'm totally stoked about the collections of Busiek's Avengers run and the Spider-man clone saga. Anytime I feel like I'm getting the whole story, I'm way more likely to spend money on the trade, even if some individual issues were only mediocre. That's why I put down money for those but I skip collections that jump around like "I Am An Avenger", "We Are The X-Men" or "Thor vs. Hercules" (especially considering that the individual issues collected there are often collected elsewhere with the surrounding issues). I'd be curious to know what the sales figures are like for the two different styles of collections.

I should add that I care a little bit about the comics industry, but probably not as much as most people here.

[artimoff]

Seriously! How can you POSSIBLY think the "management" (to continue this funny term) would NOT want to bring in new readers?!?!? Are you insane!? New readers=more money! I can tell you from experience that "bringing in new readers" is a CONSTANT topic for discussion. But, yeah, it's REALLY FUCKING HARD. We can talk about how great comics are til we're blue in the face, but the fact is, they're just not as respected as other media. And especially now, people are not as willing to spend they're money to take a chance on something they're not really sure they're into.

What do you think we should do to bring in new readers? (Aside from making them cheaper which just isn't feasible.)

And then when we try to think outside of the box and try new things, we get shit for that too from the hard-core fanboys (and girls)!

The thing people seem to forget about comics is that it's a business just like any other. OF COURSE, making money is the main factor! That's just the way things are!

I have to ask, though...what is so terrible about the state of comics right now? I honestly don't get it. Considering the economy at the moment, I think we're doing pretty well. There are still SO MANY comics out there that I love and enjoy. What exactly are you looking for? (Keep in mind, I don't really read industry news all that often, so I could just be completely ignorant about what's going on with us right now... I just know trades sell pretty well!! hahaha)


:rogue:

There was talk in an earlier thread asking if today's comics are too mature for today's kids. Part of what was said that I agree with is that if I were 10 & read this weeks Avengers, I'd never pick the book up again. It's all heroes talking, no action. Why would a 10 year old want to read about Tony Stark building a new company? Rember Iceman & the Beast talking about their love lives while fighting demon possesed cars back in Inferno? Now that would be 2 scenes & would slow down the pace of the story.

As an adult I likes these things, some of them at least, but the new readers you need to get are the 10 to 15 year old crowd. Hook them young & they will stick around for along time.




We're often putting out trades within weeks of the series being over. It'll still take just as long to make! :)



:rogue:

The trades come out months later. You're thinking about hardcovers. ;-)

[Jen Grunwald]

By the way, I'm totally stoked about the collections of Busiek's Avengers run and the Spider-man clone saga. Anytime I feel like I'm getting the whole story, I'm way more likely to spend money on the trade, even if some individual issues were only mediocre. That's why I put down money for those but I skip collections that jump around like "I Am An Avenger", "We Are The X-Men" or "Thor vs. Hercules" (especially considering that the individual issues collected there are often collected elsewhere with the surrounding issues). I'd be curious to know what the sales figures are like for the two different styles of collections.

OK, but we're not just selling to YOU. Some people like these types of collections. If they didn't, we'd stop making them. :-)


:rogue:

[Marcdachamp]

Seriously! How can you POSSIBLY think the "management" (to continue this funny term) would NOT want to bring in new readers?!?!? Are you insane!? New readers=more money! I can tell you from experience that "bringing in new readers" is a CONSTANT topic for discussion. But, yeah, it's REALLY FUCKING HARD. We can talk about how great comics are til we're blue in the face, but the fact is, they're just not as respected as other media. And especially now, people are not as willing to spend they're money to take a chance on something they're not really sure they're into.

What do you think we should do to bring in new readers? (Aside from making them cheaper which just isn't feasible.)

And then when we try to think outside of the box and try new things, we get shit for that too from the hard-core fanboys (and girls)!

The thing people seem to forget about comics is that it's a business just like any other. OF COURSE, making money is the main factor! That's just the way things are!

I have to ask, though...what is so terrible about the state of comics right now? I honestly don't get it. Considering the economy at the moment, I think we're doing pretty well. There are still SO MANY comics out there that I love and enjoy. What exactly are you looking for? (Keep in mind, I don't really read industry news all that often, so I could just be completely ignorant about what's going on with us right now... I just know trades sell pretty well!! hahaha)


:rogue:

Fantastic points, Jen. Obviously, we all want to see the industry do well. It's just going to take time.

One thing that kills me is how infrequently comics are given out when you go see movies. Iron Man 2 had a free promo comic, but that was the first one in a while. You guys are better at it than DC (I've never gotten a comic at a DC film), but every movie-goer should be getting a comic. Believe me, I've seen people reading them in the theater. It gets your product in people's hands.

Also, whatever happened to the mini-subscriptions? As a kid, I got a few cheap issues of G.I. Joe when I sent in a few proofs of purchase and a few cheap issues of Wolverine from Kool-Aid points. These are non-existent today. Why not do it with Superhero Squad figures? Or My Coke Rewards?

[Pidge]

I think people aren't giving kids enough credit. I started reading with this whole fiasco:

http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/x-men/20-1.jpg


& I didn't find it to hard to follow, I just wanted more, I was hooked, I wanted to pedal my bike up to every comic shop in my neighborhood & devour every back issue I could get my newly addicted to comics hands on. That feeling hasn't changed, I've gone to a comic store and bought single issues ever since that day. Hell, yesterday I dropped $110 on my comics and a badass Marvel Select Juggernaut, & it was totally worth it.

I love comics, I love comics so much that I choose to make sacrifices so that I can afford it, I don't go out & drink, don't smoke, that way I can afford to get every book/figure/statue or whatever that I want.

I don't complain about books being too expensive, I just cut out other things, I like reading comics more than going to the movies, so I go to less movies, and I'm sure that there are more people out there like me.

I think the industry is gonna be fine & I'll continue to do my part for as long as I can:)

[Benel Germosen]

I don't even know anymore man.

[Jen Grunwald]

Fantastic points, Jen. Obviously, we all want to see the industry do well. It's just going to take time.

One thing that kills me is how infrequently comics are given out when you go see movies. Iron Man 2 had a free promo comic, but that was the first one in a while. You guys are better at it than DC (I've never gotten a comic at a DC film), but every movie-goer should be getting a comic. Believe me, I've seen people reading them in the theater. It gets your product in people's hands.

Also, whatever happened to the mini-subscriptions? As a kid, I got a few cheap issues of G.I. Joe when I sent in a few proofs of purchase and a few cheap issues of Wolverine from Kool-Aid points. These are non-existent today. Why not do it with Superhero Squad figures? Or My Coke Rewards?

I have no idea. I'm sure our sales guys are thinking of every way possible to drum up sales, there's probably tons of reasons we don't know about. I'm betting it simply just costs more than the sales it generates, but who knows?


:rogue:

[artimoff]

I think people aren't giving kids enough credit. I started reading with this whole fiasco:

http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/x-men/20-1.jpg


& I didn't find it to hard to follow, I just wanted more, I was hooked, I wanted to pedal my bike up to every comic shop in my neighborhood & devour every back issue I could get my newly addicted to comics hands on. That feeling hasn't changed, I've gone to a comic store and bought single issues ever since that day. Hell, yesterday I dropped $110 on my comics and a badass Marvel Select Juggernaut, & it was totally worth it.

I love comics, I love comics so much that I choose to make sacrifices so that I can afford it, I don't go out & drink, don't smoke, that way I can afford to get every book/figure/statue or whatever that I want.

I don't complain about books being too expensive, I just cut out other things, I like reading comics more than going to the movies, so I go to less movies, and I'm sure that there are more people out there like me.

I think the industry is gonna be fine & I'll continue to do my part for as long as I can:)

I didn't read that issue, but I bet there wasn't a 4 page sequence where a guy & a girl talked about their feelings while just standing around. They would have done it in the danger room & there would have been action.

[Jef UK]

One thing that kills me is how infrequently comics are given out when you go see movies. Iron Man 2 had a free promo comic, but that was the first one in a while. You guys are better at it than DC (I've never gotten a comic at a DC film), but every movie-goer should be getting a comic. Believe me, I've seen people reading them in the theater. It gets your product in people's hands.

If I had to guess, it would be that giving out free comics at movie theaters shows no measurable gain in sales.

Why doesn't Marvel drop crates of comics on small Midwestern towns? That would also get their product in people's hands.

[Jim Schnobrich]

And we know for a fact that the Watchmen movie and the Scott Pilgrim got books in the hands of readers in droves. Are there reasons specific to those properties why they performed so well? Sure.


It seems to me the reason might be because there's not a lot of other content aside from the comics. If I see Scott Pilgrim and want more I don't really have much of a choice beside the comic book. Do I?

[Jen Grunwald]

I love comics, I love comics so much that I choose to make sacrifices so that I can afford it, I don't go out & drink, don't smoke, that way I can afford to get every book/figure/statue or whatever that I want.

I don't complain about books being too expensive, I just cut out other things, I like reading comics more than going to the movies, so I go to less movies, and I'm sure that there are more people out there like me.

That's just it! It's a matter of taste. Some people are movie FANATICS and go see every movie in the theater. I just went to see Tron 3D and it cost me $17 fucking dollars! That's INSANE. If I didn't get my Marvel books free, you can bet I would have skipped that and waited for the Blu-Ray (which I would have rented, not bought). It's really just comes down to what people are willing to spend their "fun money" on. There's only so much we can do to convince them it should be comics.


:rogue:

[DaveCummings]

I have to ask, though...what is so terrible about the state of comics right now? I honestly don't get it. Considering the economy at the moment, I think we're doing pretty well. There are still SO MANY comics out there that I love and enjoy. What exactly are you looking for? (Keep in mind, I don't really read industry news all that often, so I could just be completely ignorant about what's going on with us right now... I just know trades sell pretty well!! hahaha)


:rogue:

I don't think that anything is wrong or terrible with comics at the moment. What's going on is that sales took a little downturn and it brings out the chicken little mentality in a lot of people.

[Jen Grunwald]

Why doesn't Marvel drop crates of comics on small Midwestern towns? That would also get their product in people's hands.

:rofl: :rofl:


:rogue:

[Jef UK]

Why doesn't Marvel advertise on every billboard in America and shoot Runaways trades out of t-shirt guns from water towers?

[Jen Grunwald]

Why doesn't Marvel advertise on every billboard in America and shoot Runaways trades out of t-shirt guns from water towers?

All right, now your just fishing for laughs.


:rogue:

[Jef UK]

It seems to me the reason might be because there's not a lot of other content aside from the comics. If I see Scott Pilgrim and want more I don't really have much of a choice beside the comic book. Do I?

I'm not sure what you mean. The customer in question, as to these two properties, has to be a reader first, and a reader interested in reading a comic book second. I don't know, for example, what the existence of a Scott Pilgrim video game (there is one) has to do with this equation, if that's what you mean.

I think Bartleby's assessment as to a single character being divided between umpteen books is most likely. So, Batman comics would sell better after a Batman movie, but no single Batman comic would sell a million trades.

Certainly, there must be or has been a million Batman books in print at one time?

[Jef UK]

All right, now your just fishing for laughs.


:rogue:

There comes a point in every argument where I turn on my audience.

And I hadn't seen your LOL yet!

[HeroBoy]

Why doesn't Marvel advertise on every billboard in America and shoot Runaways trades out of t-shirt guns from water towers?

Marvel doesn't want any Canadian readers?

[Barry Hollifield]

It's taking me a lot of effort not to edit your post to add spaces after every comma!!! hahaha Do you do that on purpose? :-P


:rogue:

I'm just comma happy!!

[bartleby]

Marvel doesn't want any Canadian readers?

Do you know how much extra it costs to reprint all those books with both English and French text?

[HeroBoy]

Do you know how much extra it costs to reprint all those books with both English and French text?

Just send over old unsold Gambit issues

[xhondax]

I care enought to buy comics instead of downloading them off a torrent site.
I have moved on from buying my comics at an LSC to buying from DCBS mainly due to the discount DCBS is able to give.

[Jim Schnobrich]

I'm not sure what you mean. The customer in question, as to these two properties, has to be a reader first, and a reader interested in reading a comic book second. I don't know, for example, what the existence of a Scott Pilgrim video game (there is one) has to do with this equation, if that's what you mean.

I think Bartleby's assessment as to a single character being divided between umpteen books is most likely. So, Batman comics would sell better after a Batman movie, but no single Batman comic would sell a million trades.

Certainly, there must be or has been a million Batman books in print at one time?

I mean that if I see the Scott Pilgrim or Watchmen movie and want to consume more related product there aren't as many options as if I just saw a movie like The Dark Knight or Spider-Man 2.

Edit: related product not limited to just comic books

[Marcdachamp]

I have no idea. I'm sure our sales guys are thinking of every way possible to drum up sales, there's probably tons of reasons we don't know about. I'm betting it simply just costs more than the sales it generates, but who knows?


:rogue:

That's fair, I guess. I just feel like the mail-away route wouldn't be a bad way to get rid of backstock, either.

You know what's depressing? How you don't see comics in grocery stores anymore. I was at a Wegmans recently, and the only thing they had was an Archie magazine and Wizard. :sad:

[RegularJoe]

i care about in that it's an industry i enjoy the product they produce. but everything is transitory. i try to get people i know to read them...but they just borrow mine. that doesn't add to sales. and often times they don't even read them. they give them back months later "i never got around to it".

so i trust the industry to do it's level best to not die. and i'll do my best to help (keep supporting it, etc.) but my own finances/interests have to take priority over this industry. so if the day comes when i can't buy anymore, or have to slink down to 1 or 2 issues a month, i'll do that regardless of what it does to the industry.

[Dreg]

I care about them to the extent that I enjoy certain titles. But the rock-star mentality of a lot of people in the industry makes me wonder how much the industry truly cares about me. I mean, they think they have my money no matter what.

[Marcdachamp]

Just send over old unsold Gambit issues

Okay, that was pretty good. :lol:

[Myk]

Purely hypotheical question: how much would readership increase if comics were free?

I don't think it would even double, in terms of people.

Let's face it, everybody has downloaded music illegally. People KNOW that comic books of their favorite movie characters are out there, but they wouldn't even check out free content either legally or illegally, let alone go to a store and pay for it.

I think there's a perception of comic books as some kind of esoteric hobby or fetish. There's a guy at work that's known as the comic book guy. Why? Because he reads comic books, and reads them during lunch maybe once a week.

How do you make the medium of comic books more mundane? It doesn't mean more people having superman tattoos or buying the Iron Man blu-Ray DVD. It means it not being a big deal when someone reads a comic book during their lunch break.

[Jen Grunwald]

That's fair, I guess. I just feel like the mail-away route wouldn't be a bad way to get rid of backstock, either.

You know what's depressing? How you don't see comics in grocery stores anymore. I was at a Wegmans recently, and the only thing they had was an Archie magazine and Wizard. :sad:

I'm pretty sure I still see them in Stop & Shop...

And I don't think we really HAVE much back stock anymore. We print a lot closer to orders these days, which is why there are 2nd & 3rd printings so quickly on some stuff.


:rogue:

[bartleby]

You know what's depressing? How you don't see comics in grocery stores anymore. I was at a Wegmans recently, and the only thing they had was an Archie magazine and Wizard. :sad:

I wish I could find the article now, but I just recently saw a story about how Walmart or some major grocery store chain or bookstore was cutting way back on the amount of magazines they stock. That being the case, you have to figure that getting them to carry comic books is going to be impossible.

[bartleby]

Purely hypotheical question: how much would readership increase if comics were free?

I don't think it would even double, in terms of people.

Yeah, I don't think there's a magic number that's going to bring in a bunch of new comic book readers. I don't think a couple of bucks a month is going to be a major determinant to most people. There are just so many other factors in play that are much more significant than price.

[Marcdachamp]

I'm pretty sure I still see them in Stop & Shop...

And I don't think we really HAVE much back stock anymore. We print a lot closer to orders these days, which is why there are 2nd & 3rd printings so quickly on some stuff.


:rogue:

Ah. Yeah, that makes sense.

I really like what you guys do with the magazine format, but it seems expensive for the audience. I flipped through an Iron Man magazine at Borders one day. It seems like something that would do better with a lower price tag ($4-5 instead of $6 or $7) and better distribution. Maybe throw in some movie info and covers and I feel like you could make that sell in grocery stores.

[Myk]

I would have loved to have seen what would have happened if the death of Captain America had been a free web comic on release. The only loss would have been opportunity cost, given his eventually return.

Noone gives a shit about piggy-backers, in that people don't care about comics about their favorite movie character. They just don't. It's not even a diet version of their favorite soft drink... The perception is that it's a picture of a can of their favorite soft drink.

The death of Cap was an event people were interested in, in and of itself. People would have gladly taken the time to have checked it out, and exposed themselves to a medium featuring the best that comics have to offer: great writing, great art, great property.

Ah well.

[bartleby]

I would have loved to have seen what would have happened if the death of Captain America had been a free web comic on release. The only loss would have been opportunity cost, given his eventually return.

Marvel and comics shops sold a shitload of copies of that issue and subsequent printings. That's a lot of money to leave on the table.

[Sarcoidosis]

OK, but we're not just selling to YOU. Some people like these types of collections. If they didn't, we'd stop making them. :-)
I wouldn't argue otherwise, but when I share my experiences with you, it's basically free marketing data. I'm not trying to lessen the importance of others' experiences, just provide insight into how some of your consumers view the products.

Sales are a lagging indicator. They're reactive at best. Sometimes they're all you have, but I'd be stoked for any data that would let me be more proactive in my production planning.

[Myk]

Marvel and comics shops sold a shitload of copies of that issue and subsequent printings. That's a lot of money to leave on the table.

Right. The opportunity would have been substantial in terms of real dollars. So much so that no way would the shareholders have agreed to not charge for it.

But how would it have changed the industry? The medium? In terms of how many more people would have actually read a comic book? A good one? One that's a good representation of what comics today have to offer?

[Myk]

I think the sad thing is that most people don't have a favorite comic book.

Sadder still? Most people do have a favorite comic book character. Think about that fact combined with the first.

[Jen Grunwald]

Right. The opportunity would have been substantial in terms of real dollars. So much so that no way would the shareholders have agreed to not charge for it.

But how would it have changed the industry? The medium? In terms of how many more people would have actually read a comic book? A good one? One that's a good representation of what comics today have to offer?

Honestly, I really don't think all that much. I doubt a lot of people who even PAID for that book actually read it. I feel like the ones who actually wanted to read it, bought it. And the ones who would've read it for free would just read anything for free.

Just my opinion though. Obviously there's no way to know.


:rogue:

[bartleby]

But how would it have changed the industry? The medium? In terms of how many more people would have actually read a comic book? A good one? One that's a good representation of what comics today have to offer?

I still think you would have had a bunch of people curious to read the issue online that day who would have forgotten about it by the time the next issue came out a month later.

Part of the probably with things like the death of Captain America, Superman, and Unnamed Member of the Fantastic Four is that those events seem to always happen in the last part of a story arc. People who pick up that issue actually interested in what's happening are coming in at the end of the story.

I think the smartest thing they could do would be to have the big-media-event issue hit shelves one week with the story continued into the next issue out a week later. By the time the subsequent issue is available, most people have forgotten about it. Or with digital comics becoming more of a factor, have all the issues leading up to that event issue available online the day that the media is covering the story.

[Myk]

I still think you would have had a bunch of people curious to read the issue online that day who would have forgotten about it by the time the next issue came out a month later.

Yes. Probably most of them.

But I'd venture that the few that stay could be substantial, especially when compared to the existing readership.

If a Brubaker/Epting Cap book failed in that endeavor then nothing would be a bigger indication that comics are meant to be and stay a niche industry.

[bartleby]

But I'd venture that the few that stay could be substantial, especially when compared to the existing readership.

I still think they'd have trouble making up what they lost on the sales of that one issue. Initial orders for the first printing of CAPTAIN AMERICA #25 were around 300,000. Let's assume that people read that issue for free online and started reading comics regularly. You'd need to gain 5,000 new readers buying 5 books per month for a year to make up on what you could have made from that one-time sale.

[Myk]

I still think they'd have trouble making up what they lost on the sales of that one issue. Initial orders for the first printing of CAPTAIN AMERICA #25 were around 300,000. Let's assume that people read that issue for free online and started reading comics regularly. You'd need to gain 5,000 new readers buying 5 books per month for a year to make up on what you could have made from that one-time sale.

Yes, I agreed that the monetary loss would have been substantial. And almost no industry right now can afford to keep that much money on the table.

I'm strictly talking hypotheticals right now. And yes, those are some pretty big hypotheticals, not the least of which is "let's assume shareholders care more about the ubiquity of a niche medium than almost guaranteed revenue."

But let's face it, we're in a situation where people won't try out a comic just because it's a comic. That's where we're at.

Some people go out of their way to try and change that, even people with no dogs in the race, so to speak. Some just think, hey, as long as I get what I want from it, who cares. Which is the way most people think about most things. An industry shouldn't RELY on the hardcore consumers just to survive.

Look at the big picture and what's going on in it. No, the medium is not going to die. But the industry is a different story. It's going through some huge changes, and ultimately, the industry is in the hands of only a few players. Comparing anyone other than Marvel and DC to Marvel and DC is like comparing any other basketball league or association with the NBA.

A collective bargaining strike or lockout isn't going to stop anyone from shooting hoops at the playground. But it is definitely going to hurt the industry of basketball-related revenue.

We're already at the point where many great artists who would be comic book artists otherwise are pursuing other careers because of exponentially more money AND bigger audiences. It will just get worse. Yes, there will be some great artists who would do it for free because of the love for it. But how do you develop of love for something you were never given the chance to appreciate because you were never exposed to it?

[Myk]

Don't think of the medium of comic books as music. That's too general. Think of it as poetry.

And then think of poetry as an industry.

The comic book industry is like people trying to make money off of poetry.

If the only poetry people seem to like are limericks, that's what the companies are going to make more than anything. And if a poet can only do one poem a month, you can be damn sure that it's going to be a limerick.

[Fake Pat]

By industry, we're talking direct market, Diamond, big two, right?

I do not care. At least, not to the extent that I would try to do anything to help it. I buy what I want, how I want. If that's not enough, then it deserves to fail.

Exactly.

I care about the medium, not the industry.

[Myk]

Exactly.

I care about the medium, not the industry.

How will the medium fare if no one's contributing to it, either from lack of exposure to it during one's formative years, or more immediately, not being able to live off of it? How many of your favorite comics were made during the spare time of creators with full time jobs doing something else?

[A.Huerta]

How will the medium fare if no one's contributing to it, either from lack of exposure to it during one's formative years, or more immediately, not being able to live off of it? How many of your favorite comics were made during the spare time of creators with full time jobs doing something else?

Most creators would either stop or move onto movies and video games. A few will continue to do it as a hobby.

[Fake Pat]

How will the medium fare if no one's contributing to it, either from lack of exposure to it during one's formative years, or more immediately, not being able to live off of it? How many of your favorite comics were made during the spare time of creators with full time jobs doing something else?

The vast majority of the stuff I love exists pretty independently of the comics industry.

[Myk]

The vast majority of the stuff I love exists pretty independently of the comics industry.

Could you name some examples please?

[MIKE D]

I buy what I like, and if that brings me weeks where I spend less than 5 bucks, I'm OK with that. I don't have the collector's mentality, or the disposable income, to drop something like 40 bucks a week. I don't even have the kind of time needed to read all that. Like Pat said, I love the medium. And I wish the industry well, but I'm not going to support it out of a misguided altruism. I support it based on what I want from it. Nothing more.

[costello]

Costello: I hope things get better for you soon Man. Money is tight for me too,but a little better than it was a couple of years ago.


Thank you. Yeah, it sucks that I can't buy comic books, games, action figures, etc., but I've never been happier. I have a great wife and kid and we've been having the time of our lives.

[Jef UK]

Most artists I know make comics in the spare time of their freelance work or have day jobs. Most writers I know make comics in the spare time of their day jobs.

That poetry analogy is pretty terrible, but to stretch it even thinner: what poets make money, and why are there still so many fucking poets?

[Supreme Convoy]

I also worry about the financial/economical status of the comics industry as well as the future.

When Robert Kirkman released his mission statement a couple of years ago, we all debated about the creator owned comics stance. Though I think his concern about getting new kids into comics definitely hit the nail in the head.

[Fake Pat]

Could you name some examples please?

This guy, Michael Deforge, is hands down my favorite creator right now.
http://kingtrash.com/

[Myk]

I buy what I like, and if that brings me weeks where I spend less than 5 bucks, I'm OK with that. I don't have the collector's mentality, or the disposable income, to drop something like 40 bucks a week. I don't even have the kind of time needed to read all that. Like Pat said, I love the medium. And I wish the industry well, but I'm not going to support it out of a misguided altruism. I support it based on what I want from it. Nothing more.

And as someone said, if it fails, it fails.

[Fake Pat]

And as someone said, if it fails, it fails.

The comic industry as we know it is not the same as the medium, period.

[Jen Grunwald]

That poetry analogy is pretty terrible, but to stretch it even thinner: what poets make money, and why are there still so many fucking poets?

I generally dislike poetry. There are, of course, exceptions.


:rogue:

[Myk]

Most artists I know make comics in the spare time of their freelance work or have day jobs. Most writers I know make comics in the spare time of their day jobs.

Okay, granted, but how many comics are made by the creators who are like the ones you know? Even good ones?




That poetry analogy is pretty terrible, but to stretch it even thinner: what poets make money, and why are there still so many fucking poets?

Are there any good poets anymore? Do people aspire to be poets?

I didn't know there were so many fucking poets.

[jason hissong]

Okay, granted, but how many comics are made by the creators who are like the ones you know? Even good ones?



Bunches. Maybe not at Marvel and DC, but, overall, bunches and bunches.

[Myk]

The comic industry as we know it is not the same as the medium, period.

I agree. Acme Novelty Library for example, will be made regardless of the stock price of Disney.

I understand that "do you care about comics" is a different question from "do you care about the comics industry".

But some of the books I love were made by people who depend on the page rates and royalties that come from the revenue of said books. If they don't get that revenue, the books don't exist. If none of my favorite books fell in that criteria, I'm sure I would care about the industry a lot less.

[Fake Pat]

I agree. Acme Novelty Library for example, will be made regardless of the stock price of Disney.

I understand that "do you care about comics" is a different question from "do you care about the comics industry".

But some of the books I love were made by people who depend on the page rates and royalties that come from the revenue of said books. If they don't get that revenue, the books don't exist. If none of my favorite books fell in that criteria, I'm sure I would care about the industry a lot less.

Exactly, it just feels like you're arguing against that as well.

[Myk]

Bunches. Maybe not at Marvel and DC, but, overall, bunches and bunches.

Like what?

(In all honesty, like I did with Fake Pat, I'm not provoking an argument, I'm more about getting reading recommendations when I ask.)

[Myk]

Exactly, it just feels like you're arguing against that as well.

No, but it's because a lot of my favorite books DO which is why I bring up my points.

Chris Ware probably didn't need the "industry" to provide the impetus to his career. But until he started self-publishing, he needed someone who felt like they could make money off his work to get his material out there. And I'm pretty sure he doesn't have a day job, which means he relies on the financial performance of his books to make a living.

I'm not saying the medium depends on the industry to survive. But for it to exist to the way anyone wants it to, it probably does or did.

Probably.

[Fake Pat]

No, but it's because a lot of my favorite books DO which is why I bring up my points.

Chris Ware probably didn't need the "industry" to provide the impetus to his career. But until he started self-publishing, he needed someone who felt like they could make money off his work to get his material out there. And I'm pretty sure he doesn't have a day job, which means he relies on the financial performance of his books to make a living.

I'm not saying the medium depends on the industry to survive. But for it to exist to the way anyone wants it to, it probably does or did.

Probably.

I don't think it does for comics to exist in a way I'm happy with.

[Myk]

I don't think it does for comics to exist in a way I'm happy with.

That's why I said probably.

But I love that we're having this conversation on Brain Michael Bendis' message board, probably paid for with New Avengers money.

[shoelaceless]

No, but it's because a lot of my favorite books DO which is why I bring up my points.

Chris Ware probably didn't need the "industry" to provide the impetus to his career. But until he started self-publishing, he needed someone who felt like they could make money off his work to get his material out there. And I'm pretty sure he doesn't have a day job, which means he relies on the financial performance of his books to make a living.

I'm not saying the medium depends on the industry to survive. But for it to exist to the way anyone wants it to, it probably does or did.

Probably.

Did RAW or Fantagraphics really make any money from publishing Chris Ware, or even hope to? I doubt it.

Anyway, the "industry" is already killing the kind of comics Pat is talking about, with Diamond's minimum order cutoffs.

[Fake Pat]

That's why I said probably.

But I love that we're having this conversation on Brain Michael Bendis' message board, probably paid for with New Avengers money.

I guess I should be clear then. I do care about the industry in as much as I really don't want to see a bunch of creators and store owners lose their ability to make a living, I really do. But that's true of essentially every industry, and I just don't feel a responsibility to support anything based on that criteria.

[Myk]

Did RAW or Fantagraphics really make any money from publishing Chris Ware, or even hope to? I doubt it.

Are they a charity? Well, good for them.


Anyway, the "industry" is already killing the kind of comics Pat is talking about, with Diamond's minimum order cutoffs.

I don't think the kind of comics Pat is talking about were ever distributed by Diamond, but I'm not sure.

[Myk]

I guess I should be clear then. I do care about the industry in as much as I really don't want to see a bunch of creators and store owners lose their ability to make a living, I really do. But that's true of essentially every industry, and I just don't feel a responsibility to support anything based on that criteria.

Don't get me wrong. I care, but I don't feel responsible either. That's another question altogether.

I guess I want to keep reading my favorite books, created by my favorite creators, as regularly as they are available today.

That absolutely depends on the comic book industry. It might be my tastes, but I think it applies to a lot of people too.

[Fake Pat]

Are they a charity? Well, good for them.



I don't think the kind of comics Pat is talking about were ever distributed by Diamond, but I'm not sure.

No, some were. I don't think it really matters if they ever were though as long they are never going to either way.

[MIKE D]

And as someone said, if it fails, it fails.

It won't, because there will always be just enough people that feel passionately about creating them to allow it to survive.

But if the impossible happened and it did fail, I'd miss it, but I wouldn't feel even a hint of remorse that my unwillingness to burn money for it was the reason for it's death.

[Andrew]

Why doesn't Marvel drop crates of comics on small Midwestern towns? That would also get their product in people's hands.

:lol:


That's fair, I guess. I just feel like the mail-away route wouldn't be a bad way to get rid of backstock, either.

You know what's depressing? How you don't see comics in grocery stores anymore. I was at a Wegmans recently, and the only thing they had was an Archie magazine and Wizard. :sad:

That does suck, but thankfully comics are still sold at book stores where I live, and I've seen that kids are buying them. It just goes to show that availability is the issue. If kids see them, they'll want them (or at least some of them will, which is obviously better than none). But in this day and age of withering newsstand outlets and magazines being scaled back, the question is how to get the comics into kids' hands. Unlike us older readers, they're not going to order online or drive to the LCS.

Content isn't the issue, and never has been. It's always been availability first, and price second.

[James Patrick]

A little.

[Jonathan Callan]

This is a great question.

I post over on the Adam Carolla message board as well, and there seems to be a continued bitching post over there that I contribute too as well. I think Adam Carolla is a funny man, and I think the show he puts on is great, real funny, and he has branched out to launch a line of shows I can respect, some more so than others. However, the branding, behind the scene shit that goes on is so awful, so shocking that people are in a position to make such horrible decisions, I stopped buying Carolla products to support the cause. The people behind the scenes managed to mismanage their product, a GOOD product, so badly, that financial, I couldn't support that.

I continue to download the podcasts, I do. Yell at me for that all you want. I don't buy any premiums any more, even the ones I REALLY want to, like the Basic Cable Commentaries, because these people, after 2 years of offers, suggestions, and attempts by fans (which have been ignored) have failed to improve their product in the most rudimentary way. I do not feel like I should support wilful ignorance, a contempt for fans, and worse, insular thinking---they have the Carollatards, as they are called, and those people will support the product enough without any real change.



I am a casual listener to Carolla. What do you hate about the way it's being run?

[HeroBoy]

I am a casual listener to Carolla. What do you hate about the way it's being run?

Well, my complaints or mostly on the network as a whole.

But sound quality is awful, turning the show BACK into a Radio Show, therefore taking away from all the benefits that a podcast offers. Once they role out a new idea, like the Basic Cable Commentaries, a movie commentary cast, it is priced out at $10...which is OUTLANDISH compared to the other movie commentaries out there.

Adam rants and rants about his old radio show producer being a beaver. By that he means that Joel Silver never adapted or worked to his talent because all he did was know how to build dams. IT's disheartening, then, to see Carolla get all the "freedom" in the known world, a podcast, and all he wants to do is build a dam.

If you're looking for how networks in podcasting world SHOULD be run, Kevin Smith is doing a bang up job, as is Ear Wolf Network. If you're looking for individule podcasters who are actually exploring what the freedom of podcasting actually offers, Marc Maron would be at the top of that list, giving interviews and insight into his guests that have been unthinkable prior to podcasting. Another good one is Chris Hardwick, who is less groundbreaking than Maron, but is putting on the show he clearly wants to do and is happy to be doing it.

Carolla has seemed bitter, angry, and not fully appreciating a podcast fan base, and was content to build his dam, and hire incompetent people behind the scenes.

Having said that, I do think there has been an upturn in attitude at Carolla's show since the hiring of Allison Rosen as the new News Girl. And she is rather funny. But still, that doesn't fix the sound or the morning Zoo Situation they have going on over there.

[Jef UK]

Isn't most of Carolla's schtick to be bitter and angry about things?

[HeroBoy]

Isn't most of Carolla's schtick to be bitter and angry about things?

That's what a lot of people seem to think, but if you listen to the "golden years" i.e. Loveline, he was much more playful and seemed to enjoy doing what he was doing, even while ranting about things that made him bitter and angry. A thin line, to be sure, but a line that does exist.

[Jonathan Callan]

Well, my complaints or mostly on the network as a whole.

But sound quality is awful, turning the show BACK into a Radio Show, therefore taking away from all the benefits that a podcast offers. Once they role out a new idea, like the Basic Cable Commentaries, a movie commentary cast, it is priced out at $10...which is OUTLANDISH compared to the other movie commentaries out there.

Adam rants and rants about his old radio show producer being a beaver. By that he means that Joel Silver never adapted or worked to his talent because all he did was know how to build dams. IT's disheartening, then, to see Carolla get all the "freedom" in the known world, a podcast, and all he wants to do is build a dam.

If you're looking for how networks in podcasting world SHOULD be run, Kevin Smith is doing a bang up job, as is Ear Wolf Network. If you're looking for individule podcasters who are actually exploring what the freedom of podcasting actually offers, Marc Maron would be at the top of that list, giving interviews and insight into his guests that have been unthinkable prior to podcasting. Another good one is Chris Hardwick, who is less groundbreaking than Maron, but is putting on the show he clearly wants to do and is happy to be doing it.

Carolla has seemed bitter, angry, and not fully appreciating a podcast fan base, and was content to build his dam, and hire incompetent people behind the scenes.

Having said that, I do think there has been an upturn in attitude at Carolla's show since the hiring of Allison Rosen as the new News Girl. And she is rather funny. But still, that doesn't fix the sound or the morning Zoo Situation they have going on over there.

I'm not sure I totally get it. I listened to all those podcasts you mentioned. I don't listen to Carolla as much as those other podcasts because I don't like him as much. But it seems like your problems are:

1. Sound

2. Format

I've never noticed a problem with the sound. I liked the old format better, but is the objection to the switch really that wide spread among the fan base?

[Jef UK]

I just want to point out how smart and correct I am (Brevoort on CBR (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=30579)):


Moving on, since last week there's been some discussion online about Marvel and comics for kids, part of it kicked off by what you'd said on which readers Marvel was focusing on. But before we get into some more specifics on this, I understand you've got one idea to speak on for starters, yes?

Brevoort: Specifically I wanted to respond to some things one person had written in the comments last week. We talked a little bit about the bookstore market and where the audience is coming from, and somebody -- in the sort of mock outrage we see a lot on internet chat boards -- did a whole diatribe on "This is exactly what's wrong with Marvel! They're not reaching out to the young readers and focusing solely on lapsed old guys! It should be done the way it was when I started reading comics!"

I think the flaw with this thinking is two-fold. One, we care a great deal about the younger audience. We've been very aggressive in courting younger readers through our Marvel Adventures line that gets distributed to a bunch of places our other books don't. But two, the real mistake there is that this is not 1970-whatever anymore. I started reading comics in the early '70s, and my earliest comics were bought at a 7-Eleven. And that's not an experience that anyone in the past ten or 15 years is going to duplicate. The entirety of mainstream magazine publishing has changed since then, along with every other medium. The whole landscape of how we publish and distribute our books is different. And we can pine for the great glory days when television was black and white and there were only three channels and radio was all great dramas. But as wonderful as those days may have been, they are gone. The world has changed and they are not coming back. That is nostalgia talking.

And it's a good kind of nostalgia. I have wonderful memories of going to the 7-Eleven and spinning the spinner racks and finding whatever the new comics were and being excited about them. And wanting to pass that sort of experience on to the next generation is great.

But the thing to understand is that the world kids are living in today is not the world that I or anyone who came into comics in-between has lived in. I think today, more than anything else -- and this will get me in more trouble on the boards than anything else I say this week -- the two places you're going to see younger readers coming to Marvel in the future are number one, digital. I know a million eyes roll at that, but I fully believe that is true. I see it with my own kids. I see it with my nieces and nephews. They live in a digital existence. They are so comfortable and conversant and happy on computers or handhelds or laptops. This is how they socialize and interact with the world, much more so than with any tangible media. They don't read books. They read screens. So I think digital is a huge part of it.

And the number two thing as a gateway drug these days is animation. I think it's undeniable. It's been growing in that direction since the '90s and the prevalence of the Marvel cartoons like "X-Men" and "Spider-Man" and the DC cartoons throughout that same era like "Batman" and "Superman Adventures." The thing I hear from retailers these days is that kids are coming into the stores who saw "Super-Hero Squad" or "Avengers" and suddenly know who all these characters are, even some of the more obscure ones. They're much more interested and eager when they spot a comic book with them in it, and can say, "Holy smoke! There's a comic with Ms. Marvel in it!" I think that too is a gateway drug that's a lot stronger than it used to be particularly because of the kind of stories they can now tell in animation, and the way they tell them. The sophistication those stories possess is a lot closer to the comics -- particularly the comics of 20 or 30 years ago -- than cartoons used to be. Pick a superhero cartoon show -- I'll point to "Avengers" but I could just as easily say "Young Justice." These cartoons are an absolute entree to the kind of sophisticated world-building that exists in the Marvel Universe. And it's a real easy stepping stone for the young reader since it comes right into their house.

I think those are the real gateways for younger readers now. I could spend a tremendous amount of time, effort and energy trying to get comics back onto spinner racks in 7-Elevens. But that would be a waste of resources because the reason there aren't any spinner racks in 7-Elevens anymore is because they were no longer fiscally feasible. The amount of money those racks generated for the amount of space and maintenance they required was not worthwhile for that organization. All the wishing in the world on my part is not going to change that. I think it's imperative for us to reach out to the youngest possible demographic and appeal to their sensibilities to draw them into this world, but I think you're going to see that through digital and animation more than traditional comic book publishing.

[HeroBoy]

I'm not sure I totally get it. I listened to all those podcasts you mentioned. I don't listen to Carolla as much as those other podcasts because I don't like him as much. But it seems like your problems are:

1. Sound

2. Format

I've never noticed a problem with the sound. I liked the old format better, but is the objection to the switch really that wide spread among the fan base?

There are other complaints over there as well, but yeah, those are my two biggest problems with the show. If you want more, you can go to he mahalo web boards and see what everyones issues are, of which there are plenty, mostly filled with hatred for Donny.

[Jef UK]

If only the big two would get their products on to newstands where kids could find them like we did!

Taken a couple weekends ago at Wal-Mart:
http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/197850_1744342523020_1072444583_1896014_4242292_n. jpg

Taken this weekend at Barnes & Noble:
http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/200491_1745300946980_1072444583_1897780_5333841_n. jpg