Agree/Disagree? DC vs Marvel -- Authority vs. Anti-Establishment?

[Cth]

Ok, let's see how long this thread can last..

:lol:

A good point was raised over in the DCU thread, and I thought I'd bring it out for the rest of the board to see if people agree with it.

For years, one of the main differences between Marvel and DC has been the legacy issue. With Captain America and others, it seems that division line is slowly disappearing. Another has been the issue of fallibility, with DC having generally been portrayed in the past as having godlike superbeings that always won.

That's when Ray mentioned another division I haven't seen mentioned much..

Authority figures vs. Rebellious figures



Superman - Benevolent daddy figure of the DCU

Batman - Hard-ass urban vigilante bringing the hammer down on crime.

Flash - Police investigator

Green Lantern - Agent of an alien police force

Martian Manhunter - Police detective in his secret ID

Aquaman - King

Wonder Woman - Ambassador of a foreign country.


Which is kind of interesting, given the recent directions both universes have dabbled with..

Marvel's CIVIL WAR dealing largely with Iron Man becoming an authority figure (later Cap taking on a similar role with Heroic Age)

DC's IDENTITY CRISIS with division among the heroes over Dr. Light.. Green Arrow as Mayor.. Wonder Woman breaking necks.. Batman having plans to take down the JLA..

So, is it as simple at this? Authority figures vs. Anti-Establishment?

[Taxman]

You can use the characters to tell any sort of story you want. But in the end, it does not change the essential nature of the characters.

[Adrian B AWESOME]

Anti-Establishment is a stupid name for a team, let alone a comic.

[Gregory]

How many Marvel characters have been pursued by the police/feared by the populace?
Spider-Man, X-Men, Hulk, The Thing.

I would argue the Marvel characters are off-kilter whereas the DC heroes are the epitome of classic heroism.

[Benel Germosen]

I like the idea of characters own by giant corporations are somehow anti-establishment.

[RickLM]

It's funny that Grant Morrison is writing for the goody-two-shoes company.

[Ben]

Anti-Establishment is a stupid name for a team, let alone a comic.
How about Anti-Disestablishmentarianment?

[The Mandarin]

I like the idea of characters own by giant corporations are somehow anti-establishment.

Yeah, it's kind of like manufactured pop music artists being "rebels", oooh, they're reebelss cuz they sing a little about freedom from their parents and society's rules while being sponsored by Coca Cola and McDonalds.

[Adrian B AWESOME]

How about Anti-Disestablishmentarianment?

That's even worse. I mean, on one side, you have easy-to-remember heroes like Apollo or Midnighter.

On this Anti-Dissajfsjasgjsgasgfjkllasdkjgpnmvopasnk side, you've got, what? Hippie Lad, who freaks out the norms? Gotherella and her phase ability (And yes, I stayed up all night thinking of that one)? Douche-Bag with the power of hipster clothing?

[Ray G.]

Didn't get to say this in the thread, but I think a big part of it is when they were created.

Most of the DC heroes were created either in the build-up to WW2 or during the cold war. This was a time when good and evil were pretty clear in most people's eyes, the government was trusted, etc.

Meanwhile, the Marvel heroes are products of the 60's, when government and authority being viewed as the enemy became much more common.

[Cth]

I knew that'd be a mistake..

It was originally Rebellious which didn't fit any better, IMO.

So I went with Ray's original terminology :D

[GrandeMaestro Fünke]

I think it's more that Marvel characters are viewed badly by "the authority," rather than them actually being anti-establishment. It's not like any of them are trying to overthrow the government.

[SMACK!]

Didn't get to say this in the thread, but I think a big part of it is when they were created.

Most of the DC heroes were created either in the build-up to WW2 or during the cold war. This was a time when good and evil were pretty clear in most people's eyes, the government was trusted, etc.

Meanwhile, the Marvel heroes are products of the 60's, when government and authority being viewed as the enemy became much more common.
In the early sixties, at least when the FF, Spider-Man and Hulk debuted, there wasn't much of an anti-authority swing. That didn't happen until the escalation of Vietnam in 67 and later. By that time, most of the mainstream Marvel character tropes became entrenched.

However, Marvel wasn't selling in the top ten and giving DC a run for their money until the late sixties, so maybe their success owes to the political climate.

[Cth]

However, Marvel wasn't selling in the top ten and giving DC a run for their money until the late sixties, so maybe their success owes to the political climate.

For what it's worth, Marvel didn't have a book in the "Top Ten" until 1969 if statements of ownership.. of course, that includes Archie and Disney.

[artimoff]

Didn't get to say this in the thread, but I think a big part of it is when they were created.

Most of the DC heroes were created either in the build-up to WW2 or during the cold war. This was a time when good and evil were pretty clear in most people's eyes, the government was trusted, etc.

Meanwhile, the Marvel heroes are products of the 60's, when government and authority being viewed as the enemy became much more common.


Have you read the original Superman #1? Superman is obviously very anti-establishment. He locks a coal mine owner & his party guests on his own coal mine to how him how bad conditions really are.

[The Dean]

That's too broad a brush to paint either comic company nowadays.

Very few heroes actually work within the framework of the law. The very idea of vigilantism (the basis for many super-tights titles) is anti-establishment.

[Jef UK]

How about Anti-Disestablishmentarianment?

Let's make some real money here: X-Anti-Disestablishmentarianment

[SteveFlack]

Let's make some real money here: X-Anti-Disestablishmentarianment

Blackest Night: X-Anti-Disestablishmentarianment

[DarkKnightJared]

On one hand, I can kinda see what you mean--but on the other hand, I don't think it's a stretch to say that the concept of fighting crime outside of the established forces is inherently anti-authority.