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PhilipClark
09-27-2010, 12:31 PM
http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2010/09/27/robert-harras-named-editor-in-chief-vp-dc-comics/

Adrian B AWESOME
09-27-2010, 12:34 PM
Am I in some sort of time warp?

Can't wait until the Superman Clone saga stretches on for years and years!

Christopher Brian
09-27-2010, 12:39 PM
Holy shit.

Harras is going to want to win and win big. Hell of a comeback.

AndrewG
09-27-2010, 12:41 PM
Interesting. Looking forward to seeing what happens.

SteveFlack
09-27-2010, 12:46 PM
Interesting. Looking forward to seeing what happens.

Grant Morrison is going to write some cool comics. Geoff Johns will resurrect more characters no one missed. Everything else will be one giant mess.

Supreme Convoy
09-27-2010, 12:47 PM
I didn't realize that DC hasn't had an editor in chief position in years.

Treacle
09-27-2010, 12:47 PM
Why did they go so long without an editor in chief?

Michael Blacklist
09-27-2010, 12:47 PM
Holy cow.

Bedlam66
09-27-2010, 12:48 PM
I thought Didio was EIC.

Adrian B AWESOME
09-27-2010, 12:48 PM
Why did they go so long without an editor in chief?

They had to go on a cross-country walk to yadda yadda yadda...

AndrewG
09-27-2010, 12:49 PM
I thought Didio was EIC.

Publisher. Or co publisher, rather.

SteveFlack
09-27-2010, 12:50 PM
Why did they go so long without an editor in chief?

Dan Didio sort of backdoored his way into the spot by getting a new position that made the EiC redundant. I guess with the increase in responsibility brought on by his promotion (and probably because he will be spending more time on the west coast), they probably realized they needed one again.

TIP
09-27-2010, 12:50 PM
He's a good man. I was married to a second cousin of his for 15 years (divorced back in 88 ) so we spent a lot of time hanging out, nursing beers, talking comics, and sharing tales of school yard grab-ass.

Adrian B AWESOME
09-27-2010, 12:53 PM
He's a good man. I was married to a second cousin of his for 15 years (divorced back in 88 ) so we spent a lot of time hanging out, nursing beers, talking comics, and sharing tales of school yard grab-ass.

:lol:!!

Brother Power the Gong
09-27-2010, 12:53 PM
He's a good man. I was married to a second cousin of his for 15 years (divorced back in 88 ) so we spent a lot of time hanging out, nursing beers, talking comics, and sharing tales of school yard grab-ass.

Wait, this isn't the cautionary tale about ending up dead in a Paris bathtub? These threads are confusing.

Adrian B AWESOME
09-27-2010, 12:54 PM
Jenette Kahn was the last EIC at DC. I don't blame anyone wanting to follow that act. Probably the most important unknown figure of comics in the 20th century.

TIP
09-27-2010, 12:55 PM
Wait, this isn't the cautionary tale about ending up dead in a Paris bathtub? These threads are confusing.

It's all connected, man.

:sad:

Adrian B AWESOME
09-27-2010, 12:55 PM
Wait, this isn't the cautionary tale about ending up dead in a Paris bathtub? These threads are confusing.

He didn't die, he's just on dialysis now.

TIP
09-27-2010, 12:56 PM
He didn't die, he's just on dialysis now.

Emphasis on DIE.

T

SteveFlack
09-27-2010, 12:58 PM
Jenette Kahn was the last EIC at DC. I don't blame anyone wanting to follow that act. Probably the most important unknown figure of comics in the 20th century.

More so than

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XyLz-WMlL._SS500_.jpg

?

Brother Power the Gong
09-27-2010, 12:59 PM
More so than

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XyLz-WMlL._SS500_.jpg

?

Give it time, bro. Power is his destiny.

NeverWanderer
09-27-2010, 01:01 PM
I always liked Bob Harras, but wasn't he at the heart of all the editorial control complaints that made Kelly and Seagle leave the X-books back in the 90s?

Liquid
09-27-2010, 01:04 PM
Wasn't it because of Bob Harras' interference that Chris Claremont left the X-Men after 17 years?

dougmac
09-27-2010, 01:05 PM
I always liked Bob Harras, but wasn't he at the heart of all the editorial control complaints that made Kelly and Seagle leave the X-books back in the 90s?


Wasn't it because of Bob Harras' interference that Chris Claremont left the X-Men after 17 years?

now I'm confused if I should be mad or glad

The Funketeer
09-27-2010, 01:08 PM
I always liked Bob Harras, but wasn't he at the heart of all the editorial control complaints that made Kelly and Seagle leave the X-books back in the 90s?

There were a lot of creators who didn't like working with him from what I heard. Rumors were that he was doing a lot of the plotting on the xbooks while he was in charge of that office.

bartleby
09-27-2010, 01:11 PM
Wait, the same Bob Harras that basically drove Marvel into the ground? Is this for real?

SteveFlack
09-27-2010, 01:11 PM
I believe, in retrospect, the Harras years are some of the most creatively bankrupt of Marvel's history since the silver age. Can anyone name a single great run of stories from that era? Even the good ones are wrought with editorial shenanigans preventing them from being great.

ThisSpaceForRent
09-27-2010, 01:12 PM
I had to read that thread title twice before it processed.

Does this mean that shortly they're going to get Bill Jemas in to fix what Harras will fuck up?

GrandeMaestro Fünke
09-27-2010, 01:13 PM
Maybe he's learned from his mistakes at Marvel.

bartleby
09-27-2010, 01:13 PM
I believe, in retrospect, the Harras years are some of the most creatively bankrupt of Marvel's history since the silver age. Can anyone name a single great run of stories from that era? Even the good ones are wrought with editorial shenanigans preventing them from being great.

What was Peter David working on during that time? He had long runs on both INCREDIBLE HULK and X-FACTOR that were both pretty great. There had to have been some overlap between one of those and Harras' reign of terror.

Adrian B AWESOME
09-27-2010, 01:14 PM
I believe, in retrospect, the Harras years are some of the most creatively bankrupt of Marvel's history since the silver age. Can anyone name a single great run of stories from that era? Even the good ones are wrought with editorial shenanigans preventing them from being great.

Joe Kelly's Deadpool run comes to mind...

antistar
09-27-2010, 01:15 PM
I believe, in retrospect, the Harras years are some of the most creatively bankrupt of Marvel's history since the silver age. Can anyone name a single great run of stories from that era? Even the good ones are wrought with editorial shenanigans preventing them from being great.

Waid and Garney's Captain America... of course, he removed them from the book and gave it to Rob Liefeld.

NeverWanderer
09-27-2010, 01:15 PM
I believe, in retrospect, the Harras years are some of the most creatively bankrupt of Marvel's history since the silver age. Can anyone name a single great run of stories from that era? Even the good ones are wrought with editorial shenanigans preventing them from being great.

Waid's run on Captain America, Joe Kelly's run on Deadpool, Lobdell & Bachalo on Generation X.

Also, he was in charge during the Onslaught saga, which is my favorite crossover event (though I realize others' mileage may vary).

Supreme Convoy
09-27-2010, 01:16 PM
Wait, this isn't the cautionary tale about ending up dead in a Paris bathtub? These threads are confusing.

Is this Paris bathtub thing the new Hermit crab in a glass shell? Did I miss something?

Adrian B AWESOME
09-27-2010, 01:16 PM
Waid's run on Captain America, Joe Kelly's run on Deadpool, Lobdell & Bachalo on Generation X.

Also, he was in charge during the Onslaught saga, which is my favorite crossover event (though I realize others' mileage may vary).

Thing is, Waid's run doesn't hold a candle to guys like Gruenwald or what Brubaker has done with the character.

Sy-Klone
09-27-2010, 01:17 PM
Hey, remember how refreshing it was when Bill Jemas and Joe Quesada came into Marvel ten years ago?

There's a reason.

I hope to be proven wrong, but this news doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

NeverWanderer
09-27-2010, 01:20 PM
Thing is, Waid's run doesn't hold a candle to guys like Gruenwald or what Brubaker has done with the character.

Of the titles mentioned, I admittedly haven't read much of his Cap run. A few issues, which I did enjoy, but not enough to build a strong love. Still, that is considered one of the high watermarks on Cap.

People also loved Waid and Andy Kubert on Kazaar, but I couldn't really get into it.

Olivier E.
09-27-2010, 01:20 PM
Is this Paris bathtub thing the new Hermit crab in a glass shell? Did I miss something?

http://humbertocapellari.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/jim_morrison_biography.jpg

Adrian B AWESOME
09-27-2010, 01:20 PM
Hey, remember how refreshing it was when Bill Jemas and Joe Quesada came into Marvel ten years ago?

There's a reason.

I hope to be proven wrong, but this news doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

It made the Tom DeFalco years seem a million times better than they may have actually been.

Brother Power the Gong
09-27-2010, 01:20 PM
As long as he doesn't dick with Morrison's Batman, I am indifferent.

Adrian B AWESOME
09-27-2010, 01:21 PM
Of the titles mentioned, I admittedly haven't read much of his Cap run. A few issues, which I did enjoy, but not enough to build a strong love. Still, that is considered one of the high watermarks on Cap.

People also loved Waid and Andy Kubert on Kazaar, but I couldn't really get into it.

Maybe because it's KAZAAR. But that's me.

Kedd
09-27-2010, 01:32 PM
What was Peter David working on during that time? He had long runs on both INCREDIBLE HULK and X-FACTOR that were both pretty great. There had to have been some overlap between one of those and Harras' reign of terror.
Didn't have issues surrounding why he left both of those books? I might be remembering incorrectly so it might have nothing to do with editorial issues. forget I said anything.

Lord Jermaine Retail
09-27-2010, 01:37 PM
I'm not sure what this means. I really don't know. When I think of Bob Harras I think of Avengers The Crossing and that's not cool. ;)

But seriously, anything is possible now. Creatively, I think that things will begin to operate in a manner that some creators will be unfamiliar with at DC. In good ways and bad.

What I really, really need is changes within marketing at DC. There's a reason why Batman Adventures tpb are out of print (You have Batman Brave and Bold then Morrison Batman with no middle ground for younger readers), Planetary HC #4 is sold out leaving fans no option at all until December's softcover, Absolute Planetary #1 is sold out with no plans for reprint, things stay trapped in hardcover so long that it prevents people from being able to get the newest issues, Secret Six tpb #1 slipped out of print (it came back, but still), Flash Blitz is out of print, there are no Aquaman trades outside of the Showcase, Legion Lost by Coipel was never collected into tpb, and I could go on and on...

But there's a reason for these things and I think it affects so much about DC and their standing in the market.

TIP
09-27-2010, 01:38 PM
Is this Paris bathtub thing the new Hermit crab in a glass shell? Did I miss something?

You're soaking in it.

Christopher Brian
09-27-2010, 01:44 PM
Didn't have issues surrounding why he left both of those books? I might be remembering incorrectly so it might have nothing to do with editorial issues. forget I said anything.

He left Hulk under the Quesada regime. He had issues with Bill Jemas like everyone else.

David left X-Factor because yet another event was coming and he could not build momentum on the title anyone. Scott Lobdell, who was one of Harras' go to guys, took over and wrote the title through the cross over.

SteveFlack
09-27-2010, 01:47 PM
He left Hulk under the Quesada regime. He had issues with Bill Jemas like everyone else.

As far as leaving X-Factor everyone likes to blame Harras for the big crossovers and such but Corporate bosses wanted crossovers because they sold books (same way the big events sell now) and he was a crossover heavy EIC. David left X-Factor because yet another event was coming and he could not build momentum on the title anyone. Scott Lobdell, who was one of Harras' go to guys, took over and wrote the title through the cross over.

He left Hulk way before the Quesada regime. Remember, under the Harras regime, John Byrne was given the Hulk, and it was perhaps one of the most loathed Hulk runs ever.

Kedd
09-27-2010, 01:49 PM
He left Hulk under the Quesada regime. He had issues with Bill Jemas like everyone else.

As far as leaving X-Factor everyone likes to blame Harras for the big crossovers and such but Corporate bosses wanted crossovers because they sold books (same way the big events sell now) and he was a crossover heavy EIC. David left X-Factor because yet another event was coming and he could not build momentum on the title anyone. Scott Lobdell, who was one of Harras' go to guys, took over and wrote the title through the cross over.

Ahh. That sounds familiar. Also, X-Factor's been suffering a bit from the same thing over the past few years. don't know if it's as bad for him now as it was then, but there have been some parts where crossovers just jumped into the book and stunted the story already in progess.

Kedd
09-27-2010, 01:51 PM
Wiki has him leaving Hulk in '98

Christopher Brian
09-27-2010, 01:52 PM
He left Hulk way before the Quesada regime. Remember, under the Harras regime, John Byrne was given the Hulk, and it was perhaps one of the most loathed Hulk runs ever.

You sir are correct. It was during the four executive editor debacle. I stand corrected.

Kedd
09-27-2010, 01:55 PM
He left Hulk way before the Quesada regime. Remember, under the Harras regime, John Byrne was given the Hulk, and it was perhaps one of the most loathed Hulk runs ever.
Who was writing during that period Banner could access Hulk's strength without becoming the Hulk? Or did I make that up?

HoldFastNow
09-27-2010, 02:01 PM
First Wonder Woman gets a Harris' Avengers style jacket, and now Harris becomes EIC of DC. Somehow these two events must be connected :)

artimoff
09-27-2010, 02:04 PM
I believe, in retrospect, the Harras years are some of the most creatively bankrupt of Marvel's history since the silver age. Can anyone name a single great run of stories from that era? Even the good ones are wrought with editorial shenanigans preventing them from being great.


Harras' run on Avengers is my 3rd favorite run after Busiek & Stern.


I think Bob will run DC pretty well.

Jen Grunwald
09-27-2010, 02:06 PM
Maybe because it's KAZAAR. But that's me.

Actually, it's Ka-Zar. COME ON, PEOPLE! ;-)


:rogue:

Kedd
09-27-2010, 02:08 PM
Actually, it's Ka-Zar. COME ON, PEOPLE! ;-)


:rogue:


:nerd:

Jen Grunwald
09-27-2010, 02:10 PM
:nerd:

Hey, I work here! Cut me some slack! :-P



:rogue:

NeverWanderer
09-27-2010, 02:12 PM
Interesting perspective from Warren Ellis's blog (http://www.warrenellis.com/):


Bob Harras
September 27th, 2010 | comics talk
I read today from various sources — let’s send Heidi Mac the traffic, for the hell of it — that my old friend Bob Harras has been made editor in chief of DC Comics.

I was around back in the 90s when Bob Harras was editor of the X-Men group of comics, directly editing the two main titles and running a team of editors on the rest of that sprawling line. And back then it was sprawling, and we thought it couldn’t get any bigger, and then it did. And he was writing AVENGERS, as I recall, and wasn’t a shabby superhero writer. It was a difficult office to run. There was a lot of weird inside politics, a lot of egos and agendas, and a lot of vultures looking to pick off creators (and creators trying to take each other out). And, of course, the pressure of having the best-selling comics in the commercial field and needing to keep them that way. And yet Bob always seemed supremely relaxed. He and I had one or two big fights — and I was younger, far nastier and angrier and shot to kill, back then — but, no matter what names I called him, the next time I spoke to him he was always equanimous, forgiving and affable.

Then he was made a Group Editor, as Marvel was divided into The Five Families Of New York, five Group Editors doing the work of one EIC. And when that went horribly wrong, Bob was the last man standing — or reclining in his office, anyway — and became the single EIC, during some of Marvel’s darkest years businesswise. For various reasons, I think that must have been the hardest job in commercial comics.

In a tumultuous time at DC Entertainment, which I must remember to start calling it, the steady presence of Bob Harras is very probably what is required. Best of luck, mate.

David Aspmo
09-27-2010, 02:20 PM
What was Peter David working on during that time? He had long runs on both INCREDIBLE HULK and X-FACTOR that were both pretty great. There had to have been some overlap between one of those and Harras' reign of terror.
PAD-Factor was before Harras was EiC, but he was the editor of the x-books at the time. This was the exact same time Harras drove Claremont of X-Men in favor of Jim Lee - only to lose Jim Lee a year later to Image. Oh, and David left X-Factor after only 20 issues citing mistreatment from editorial (primarily, he didn't like getting forced into crossovers).

Peter David also left Hulk under less than happy circumstances only a couple of years after Harras became EiC (after doing the book for almost a decade prior to that), but I can't remember it being because of anything Harras did in particular.

It does seem kind of indicative of the disfunctionality and bad decision-making that was rampant at Marvel back in the 90s, though.

Kedd
09-27-2010, 02:26 PM
Hey, I work here! Cut me some slack! :-P



:rogue:

I'll let you use that as an excuse only once. After that, you're one of us :)

Jen Grunwald
09-27-2010, 02:31 PM
I'll let you use that as an excuse only once. After that, you're one of us :)

Haha Who am I kidding. I'm a nerd. A nerd who HATES SPELLING MISTAKES!!! :-P


:rogue:

PhilipClark
09-27-2010, 02:34 PM
Just stumbled upon this:

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2005/06/16/comic-book-urban-legends-revealed-3/

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/inkersrevenge.jpg

Andrew
09-27-2010, 02:35 PM
I always liked Bob Harras, but wasn't he at the heart of all the editorial control complaints that made Kelly and Seagle leave the X-books back in the 90s?


Wasn't it because of Bob Harras' interference that Chris Claremont left the X-Men after 17 years?

Yep.

This is a terrible move by DC. Anyone with a decent enough memory span will remember that he was an awful EIC at Marvel, and incredibly difficult to work with in general. It was his way or the highway.


As long as he doesn't dick with Morrison's Batman, I am indifferent.

Thing is, with him in charge now, don't be surprised if it happens. He dicked around with everything at Marvel.

Spider-Man fans in particular have long hated what this guy did.

lonesomefool
09-27-2010, 03:31 PM
We shall see. I'm enjoying a lot of what DC is doing right now and I have to think the EiC position at DC means a lot less there than at Marvel, if only because you have Lee and Johns that seem to have final say on most of the stuff on the creative side.

I'm not overly excited by this though, would have been nice to bring in someone with a fresh, new perspective rather than an industry veteran with a piss poor creative history.

GrandeMaestro Fünke
09-27-2010, 03:46 PM
A lot of industry pros are saying pretty positive things about the hire:
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=28544

lonesomefool
09-27-2010, 03:50 PM
A lot of industry pros are saying pretty positive things about the hire:
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=28544

Well, I think most creators dont want to burn a bridge. I mean, outside of Chuck Dixon who pretty much did at both DC and Marvel.

It will be interesting for sure, hopefully he has learned from his time at Marvel and will be able to work to avoid the same disasters.

leafinsectman
09-27-2010, 03:54 PM
Wow I thought this was a late April Fools thing. All the best for him and DC.

GrandeMaestro Fünke
09-27-2010, 03:57 PM
Well, I think most creators dont want to burn a bridge. I mean, outside of Chuck Dixon who pretty much did at both DC and Marvel.

It will be interesting for sure, hopefully he has learned from his time at Marvel and will be able to work to avoid the same disasters.

They could have easily declined to comment on it.

Christopher Brian
09-27-2010, 04:01 PM
Yep.

This is a terrible move by DC. Anyone with a decent enough memory span will remember that he was an awful EIC at Marvel, and incredibly difficult to work with in general. It was his way or the highway.



Thing is, with him in charge now, don't be surprised if it happens. He dicked around with everything at Marvel.

Spider-Man fans in particular have long hated what this guy did.

What did he do to Spider-Man fans? Clone saga started under Defalco, festered under Budinsky, and finally died under Harras. You could actually say he put Spider-Man fans out of their misery by ending it.

That said sticking with Howard Mackie so far afterward is maybe hate worthy.

Christopher Brian
09-27-2010, 04:19 PM
You have to figure that Mike Marts and Fabian Nicieza are in a real good place right now.

Scott Lobdell is probably going to come out the wood work as well.

Artie Pink
09-27-2010, 04:21 PM
Harras?! Are you fucking kidding me? DC looooves to fail.

justjeffery
09-27-2010, 04:23 PM
Just stumbled upon this:

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2005/06/16/comic-book-urban-legends-revealed-3/

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/inkersrevenge.jpg

was just about to post that...

bartleby
09-27-2010, 04:23 PM
I give it six months before Nicieza, Lobdell, Loeb and Kavanagh are writing at least half of DC's books.

David Aspmo
09-27-2010, 04:27 PM
I give it six months before Nicieza, Lobdell, Loeb and Kavanagh are writing at least half of DC's books.
Don't forget Mackie!

Loeb would be a bit of a feat, though.

Artie Pink
09-27-2010, 04:29 PM
Howard Mackie's Justice League couldn't be any worse than James Robinson's, I suppose.

bartleby
09-27-2010, 04:29 PM
Don't forget Mackie!

Ah, yeah. I know there was somebody I was forgetting.

lonesomefool
09-27-2010, 04:31 PM
They could have easily declined to comment on it.

True.

I'm just saying that I doubt very many were gonna come out and say anything less than glowing about him or the move.

Plus, I dont doubt the guy is a pretty good guy and people are happy for him. Doesnt mean he will do a good job, but I dont doubt a lot of people in the industry are happy for him.

Like I said, his track record is pretty shitty, but it's a different time in the industry, a different company and he's entering a pretty good situation. If he has learned from his past mistakes he will do fine, if not, well then it will likely mean less books for me to buy and more money in my pocket.

Christopher Brian
09-27-2010, 04:32 PM
Ah, yeah. I know there was somebody I was forgetting.

We might get the return of Larry Hama and David Michelinie as well.

Chris Eliopoulos
09-27-2010, 04:36 PM
Haha Who am I kidding. I'm a nerd. A nerd who HATES SPELLING MISTAKES!!! :-P


:rogue:

And knowing that and working with Bendis, I'm still amazed you haven't jumped out a window yet. :)

bartleby
09-27-2010, 04:38 PM
And knowing that and working with Bendis, I'm still amazed you haven't jumped out a window yet. :)

Are you kidding? Bendis's proclivity for typos is going to put Jen's kids through college.

Slewo.O
09-27-2010, 04:39 PM
I didn't realize that DC hasn't had an editor in chief position in years.

Neither did I. I thought DiDio was that.

Jef UK
09-27-2010, 04:41 PM
Waid's run on Captain America, Joe Kelly's run on Deadpool, Lobdell & Bachalo on Generation X.

Also, he was in charge during the Onslaught saga, which is my favorite crossover event (though I realize others' mileage may vary).

Which he crippled by making Onslaught a sliver of Magneto's personality trapped in Charle's psyche, impelling Mark Waid to leave after a too brief stint on the books.

NeverWanderer
09-27-2010, 04:44 PM
Which he crippled by making Onslaught a sliver of Magneto's personality trapped in Charle's psyche, impelling Mark Waid to leave after a too brief stint on the books.

No argument! Though, I didn't read it as a sliver of magneto's personality so much as a little bit of that deeply imbedded hate and superiority that makes Magneto who he is, that mingled with Xavier's own anger and self doubt. As I read it, Onslaught was literally Xavier and Magneto's brain child.

Maybe not what was intended originally, but I don't hate that concept.

JoeE
09-27-2010, 04:48 PM
The Spider-Man books were BAD under his watch. The absolute creative low point in the history of the character.

Jef UK
09-27-2010, 04:49 PM
No argument! Though, I didn't read it as a sliver of magneto's personality so much as a little bit of that deeply imbedded hate and superiority that makes Magneto who he is, that mingled with Xavier's own anger and self doubt. As I read it, Onslaught was literally Xavier and Magneto's brain child.

Oh, that's totally different. :)

Anyway, that's exactly what Waid objected to. And he was right. Onslaught should have been a creature of Xavier's own failures and repressed anger as the writer intended, as that is a much more powerful story and character arc. Instead, he was infected by Magneto's evil, and that is dumb.

David Aspmo
09-27-2010, 05:14 PM
Waid's run on Captain America, Joe Kelly's run on Deadpool, Lobdell & Bachalo on Generation X.
I think it's probably fair to say that Waid on Cap and Kelly on Deadpool happened in spite of Harras, not because of him.

By the time Cap was given to Waid, the deal had already been made to hand it over to Liefeld. Waid and Garney (unbeknown to them at the time) were simply there to mark time. Nobody expected it to become a fan favorite, of all things.

And as I remember the behind-the-scenes story of Kelly's Deadpool, Matt Idelson was the editorial champion for that book. Kelly was an unknown who, up until then, had only done some fill-ins (mostly on the dying 2099 line), but he wrote an amazing pitch that grabbed Idelson's attention.

Harras can probably take credit for Generation X, though. :)

joeAR
09-27-2010, 05:15 PM
I think it's probably fair to say that Waid on Cap and Kelly on Deadpool happened in spite of Harras, not because of him.

By the time Cap was given to Waid, the deal had already been made to hand it over to Liefeld. Waid and Garney (unbeknown to them at the time) were simply there to mark time. Nobody expected it to become a fan favorite, of all things.

And as I remember the behind-the-scenes story of Kelly's Deadpool, Matt Idelson was the editorial champion for that book. Kelly was an unknown who, up until then, had only done some fill-ins (mostly on the dying 2099 line), but he wrote an amazing pitch that grabbed Idelson's attention.

Harras can probably take credit for Generation X, though. :)


Joe Kelly left Deadpool cause of constant threats of cancelling the book from Harris.

joeAR
09-27-2010, 05:16 PM
The guy was EIC of Marvel during their bleakest creative years as well as when Marvel went bankrupt.

NeverWanderer
09-27-2010, 05:30 PM
Oh, that's totally different. :)

Anyway, that's exactly what Waid objected to. And he was right. Onslaught should have been a creature of Xavier's own failures and repressed anger as the writer intended, as that is a much more powerful story and character arc. Instead, he was infected by Magneto's evil, and that is dumb.

Sure it's different! :p It still makes Xavier culpable, instead of saying, "Oh, you were just possessed by some other entity."

But I do see your point. In hindsight, I remember liking the idea that Xavier had gone bad, but I also liked that they didn't corrupt him entirely (like the last 10 years has done :x). Could they have found a middle ground? Maybe. But I remember not much caring for or against it at the time. I was just wrapped up in the story.

Thomas Mauer
09-27-2010, 05:33 PM
I'm not sure what this means. I really don't know. When I think of Bob Harras I think of Avengers The Crossing and that's not cool. ;)

But seriously, anything is possible now. Creatively, I think that things will begin to operate in a manner that some creators will be unfamiliar with at DC. In good ways and bad.

What I really, really need is changes within marketing at DC. There's a reason why Batman Adventures tpb are out of print (You have Batman Brave and Bold then Morrison Batman with no middle ground for younger readers), Planetary HC #4 is sold out leaving fans no option at all until December's softcover, Absolute Planetary #1 is sold out with no plans for reprint, things stay trapped in hardcover so long that it prevents people from being able to get the newest issues, Secret Six tpb #1 slipped out of print (it came back, but still), Flash Blitz is out of print, there are no Aquaman trades outside of the Showcase, Legion Lost by Coipel was never collected into tpb, and I could go on and on...

But there's a reason for these things and I think it affects so much about DC and their standing in the market.

Interesting point. Wasn't Harras in charge of DC's collected edition department before this? I wonder how his new position will affect collections. It would be great to see more out of print books back in shops and also a dependable release schedule.

NeverWanderer
09-27-2010, 05:35 PM
The guy was EIC of Marvel during their bleakest creative years as well as when Marvel went bankrupt.

It should be noted that he inherited Marvel's financial troubles, he didn't cause them. They were his Vietnam. :)

(now I want twelve hours of Siuntres/Harras interviews! Make it happen, John!)

David Aspmo
09-27-2010, 05:35 PM
Joe Kelly left Deadpool cause of constant threats of cancelling the book from Harris.
I'm actually less inclined to blame Harras for that - the sales on the book were on the bubble throughout Kelly's run. It was simply an anomaly (and speaks to devotion of the audience - of which I was a part, incidentally) that it didn't follow the normal declining sales pattern.

On the other hand, I suspect the constant threat of cancellation wasn't the only reason Kelly left that book. Kelly left Marvel entirely after his last issue of Deadpool, and was on Action Comics just two months later. I have to think the biggest reason he jumped was the awful experience writing (or, rather, not being allowed to write) X-Men; and the editorial environment that caused that was clearly the product of Bob Harras.

If Kelly had felt Marvel was a place that valued him at the time, I expect he'd have stayed on Deadpool.

Christopher Brian
09-27-2010, 05:38 PM
The EIC stuff aside when he was editing Uncanny X-Men. JUST Uncanny X-Men... that shit was 22 pages of crack rock month in and month out. Same goes for when he was editing Incredible Hulk. He was extremely good a episodic stuff as well as pairing writers with artists. Some of the more low key things he did like letting McFarlane ink himself or pairing Jim Lee and Whilce Portacio with Scott Williams were solid things that I remember well.

He did have lots of strengths and I would say not ONE major X-Family crossover he was at the healm of sucked. Onslaught had some plot issues but overall came off well and achieved what it was set to do.

TIP
09-27-2010, 05:40 PM
It was also during my failed 15 year marriage to Bob's second cousin that he was editing US-1. It was his loving devotion to this title (and the free copies I received from him) that made me truly respect the wondrous possibilities of a truck driver with a CB skull.

NeverWanderer
09-27-2010, 05:45 PM
Kelly left Marvel entirely after his last issue of Deadpool, and was on Action Comics just two months later. I have to think the biggest reason he jumped was the awful experience writing (or, rather, not being allowed to write) X-Men; and the editorial environment that caused that was clearly the product of Bob Harras.

If Kelly had felt Marvel was a place that valued him at the time, I expect he'd have stayed on Deadpool.

Not quite true.

Kelly went on to write X-Men, with Steve Seagle writing Uncanny. They had a surprisingly good run and were building towards a big (oddly reminiscent of Ultimatum) event, and then they got the books taken away from them towards the very end of their first big crossover. The last two issues of "The Hunt For Xavier" swerved violently off the tracks they were laying down, and ended on a ridiculously status-quo note. Seagle didn't even get to write his last issue -- in fact, if memory serves, I believe Harras wrote it (and not very well).

THEN, a few months later, they had bright shiny new jobs working on the Superman books over at DC. :)

Deadpool, thankfully, was not a victim of all that. Kelly's run on that book remains untainted.


EDIT: Shit, either you edited that to mention X-Men, or I completely overlooked it.

:) Oh, well. Just consider this post an addendum to yours, then.

Ryudo
09-27-2010, 05:51 PM
I think that it is a shrewd move.

Unless you were a part of the industry, or knew someone in it (like TIP does :lol:), you probably didn't know which part of stuff like events every other month or Heroes Reborn was an editorial choice vs. an ownership "let's drive sales!" choice.

He is a good pick out of DC's available talent in that area. Nicieza would have been another good choice IMO. He did an excellent job with Acclaim/Valiant's relaunch, and put a lot of muscle behind those characters and jump-started some new really good IPs for them before they went under. But I'm sure Nicieza wouldn't want that workload again.

But yeah, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Lobdell Justice League. :D

NeverWanderer
09-27-2010, 05:58 PM
But yeah, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Lobdell Justice League. :D

:scared: Shit, I might start buying Justice League if that happens...

David Aspmo
09-27-2010, 06:08 PM
The EIC stuff aside when he was editing Uncanny X-Men. JUST Uncanny X-Men... that shit was 22 pages of crack rock month in and month out. Same goes for when he was editing Incredible Hulk. He was extremely good a episodic stuff as well as pairing writers with artists. Some of the more low key things he did like letting McFarlane ink himself or pairing Jim Lee and Whilce Portacio with Scott Williams were solid things that I remember well.
He wasn't the first editor to do either of those things, though. Lee and Williams worked together on Punisher War Journal, and McFarlane was often inking himself back when he was working at DC. I suppose Harras may deserve credit for recognizing what worked best after he saw it, but I'm pretty sure those decisions were made at the request of the artists.

Christopher Brian
09-27-2010, 06:11 PM
He wasn't the first editor to do either of those things, though. Lee and Williams worked together on Punisher War Journal, and McFarlane was often inking himself back when he was working at DC. I suppose Harras may deserve credit for recognizing what worked best after he saw it, but I'm pretty sure those decisions were made at the request of the artists.

I think being able to get out of the way of your talent is a key to being a good editor. I think he showed he was a good editor not necessarily a good EIC. He was lights out at putting artists on the right assignments and letting them go. He put people in position to succeed. You can't ask for more from an editor.

And Editor & Chief? He has to position the entire line to succeed. Not convinced he did that.

Superior Kiai
09-27-2010, 06:25 PM
It should be noted that he inherited Marvel's financial troubles, he didn't cause them. They were his Vietnam. :)

(now I want twelve hours of Siuntres/Harras interviews! Make it happen, John!)

Seconded.

David Aspmo
09-27-2010, 06:40 PM
Not quite true.

Kelly went on to write X-Men, with Steve Seagle writing Uncanny. They had a surprisingly good run and were building towards a big (oddly reminiscent of Ultimatum) event, and then they got the books taken away from them towards the very end of their first big crossover. The last two issues of "The Hunt For Xavier" swerved violently off the tracks they were laying down, and ended on a ridiculously status-quo note. Seagle didn't even get to write his last issue -- in fact, if memory serves, I believe Harras wrote it (and not very well).

THEN, a few months later, they had bright shiny new jobs working on the Superman books over at DC. :)

Deadpool, thankfully, was not a victim of all that. Kelly's run on that book remains untainted.


EDIT: Shit, either you edited that to mention X-Men, or I completely overlooked it.

:) Oh, well. Just consider this post an addendum to yours, then.
Well, it wasn't an edit - as it being in your quote evidences. ;)

Moreover, though, you've got your timeline wrong. The aborted X-Men run came in the middle of Kelly's Deadpool run, not after it. Deadpool #33 was the last thing he had published at Marvel before jumping.

And even though Kelly is credited as writer from #70-85, by #80 he was no longer plotting the book, just scripting over plots given to him by editorial. The stuff with the fake X-Men that first appear in Uncanny #360? Kelly and Seagle were just as surprised as anyone by that development. And the next four issues were another crossover with Uncanny that they had dictated to them by editorial.

Even #75 had was substantially changed at the last moment by editorial. That issue was supposed to be the culmination of the storyline he'd been building since #70 about the three new characters (Cecelia Reyes, Marrow and Maggott) coming into their own on the team. He turned in the script for the issue, and editorial told him that there wasn't enough focus on the established characters (even though that was deliberate because the story was designed to get the new characters over with the audience). So, that whole six-issue story got compromised because editorial wouldn't let the writer... you know, write.

Ironically, as far as I know, #85 was written by Kelly (with a superficial punch-up from Alan Davis when he did the art). And I remember Bryan Singer citing that issue as one of the stories that helped him get a handle on the property when he was being offered the first movie.

Those first few issues of that run (with Pacheco on art) are still some of my favorite X-Men issues. The tone and the character interaction was spot on - it was just exactly what I want from an X-Men book. I wish Kelly would get another go with the series.

NeverWanderer
09-27-2010, 07:42 PM
Well, it wasn't an edit - as it being in your quote evidences. ;)

Moreover, though, you've got your timeline wrong. The aborted X-Men run came in the middle of Kelly's Deadpool run, not after it. Deadpool #33 was the last thing he had published at Marvel before jumping.

And even though Kelly is credited as writer from #70-85, by #80 he was no longer plotting the book, just scripting over plots given to him by editorial. The stuff with the fake X-Men that first appear in Uncanny #360? Kelly and Seagle were just as surprised as anyone by that development. And the next four issues were another crossover with Uncanny that they had dictated to them by editorial.

Even #75 had was substantially changed at the last moment by editorial. That issue was supposed to be the culmination of the storyline he'd been building since #70 about the three new characters (Cecelia Reyes, Marrow and Maggott) coming into their own on the team. He turned in the script for the issue, and editorial told him that there wasn't enough focus on the established characters (even though that was deliberate because the story was designed to get the new characters over with the audience). So, that whole six-issue story got compromised because editorial wouldn't let the writer... you know, write.

Ironically, as far as I know, #85 was written by Kelly (with a superficial punch-up from Alan Davis when he did the art). And I remember Bryan Singer citing that issue as one of the stories that helped him get a handle on the property when he was being offered the first movie.

Those first few issues of that run (with Pacheco on art) are still some of my favorite X-Men issues. The tone and the character interaction was spot on - it was just exactly what I want from an X-Men book. I wish Kelly would get another go with the series.

I stand corrected and bow to your superior X-knowledge. I had no idea the "New X-Men" stuff wasn't their own creation. I wonder, then, what set who off about Seagle's last issue of The Hunt For Xavier that they had to completely rescript it. Had he just gotten fed up with the whole thing and left?

CBikle
09-27-2010, 07:55 PM
:scared: Shit, I might start buying Justice League if that happens...

You'll be buying 2, maybe 3 issues at best.

No one besides you and Scott Lobdell's mom will be buying those issues, were such a thing to happen.

NeverWanderer
09-27-2010, 08:05 PM
You'll be buying 2, maybe 3 issues at best.

No one besides you and Scott Lobdell's mom will be buying those issues, were such a thing to happen.

Oh ho! Such confidence in the imaginary failure of others. You must be a comic fan. :p

Lobdell's run on the X-books in the 90s was a formative run for me. He's the reason I wanted to write comics, so hell yeah, I'd give his stuff a shot.

NickT
09-27-2010, 08:06 PM
I always kindof find it hard to judge editors really, as they have to work off of what sells, the creators available and what people above want from them, and most of the stories you will hear will be negative because a writer who has an idea vetoed most likely isn't going to be positive on that even if the vetoing was for the best, and most of the time we would only hear about it because someone isn't happy.

His previous time in charge of Marvel may not be the most fondly remembered, but it may not all be down to him. Who knows, maybe he will be the right person for DC right now?

joeAR
09-27-2010, 08:16 PM
Does anyone know who wrote and drew this comic? I remember reading it and hating it when it came out but can't remember the creative team.

Here it is in a nutshell: Did you see that stupifyingly atrocious piece-of-crap X-MEN sampler comic in TV GUIDE? My rage had no words. It was a textbook example of how NOT to write and draw something a prospective first-time reader could possibly understand or enjoy or want to see more of. Hell, I’ve been reading comics for 34 years and I had to read it three times to figure out what was going on. TV GUIDE. Eight million households. A once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for new market exposure. And everyone connected with it failed miserably. Fire them. Fire them all. We’re DYIN’ here. We cannot afford to blow ANY opportunity to find new readers.

David Aspmo
09-27-2010, 08:36 PM
I always kindof find it hard to judge editors really, as they have to work off of what sells, the creators available and what people above want from them, and most of the stories you will hear will be negative because a writer who has an idea vetoed most likely isn't going to be positive on that even if the vetoing was for the best, and most of the time we would only hear about it because someone isn't happy.

His previous time in charge of Marvel may not be the most fondly remembered, but it may not all be down to him. Who knows, maybe he will be the right person for DC right now?
I think the biggest thing Harras has going against him is how dramatic a change for the better there was in Marvel once Quesada took over the EiC position. Pretty much everything that people complained about during Harras' tenure was addressed almost immediately after the changeover occurred.

Creators like Morrison and Milligan were given important X-Books and allowed to give them distinctive voices and have unprecedented creative control. Spider-Man was overhauled and brought back to prominence after years of derision. The trade paperback collection department was vastly expanded. Even basic production things like proper digital coloring were taken care of.

All of this stuff could and should have been done years earlier, but apparently there wasn't an EiC with the judgment and innovation to make it happen.

Andrew
09-27-2010, 08:45 PM
What did he do to Spider-Man fans? Clone saga started under Defalco, festered under Budinsky, and finally died under Harras. You could actually say he put Spider-Man fans out of their misery by ending it.

That said sticking with Howard Mackie so far afterward is maybe hate worthy.

He was the one who forced them to end the Clone Saga by resurrecting Norman Osborn, which was incredibly controversial at the time.

He was the one who decided to shitcan the (actually good) post-Clone Saga writing team in favor of the Mackie/Byrne reboot.

His worst offence is forcing them to bring Aunt May back in the most retarded way possible, when NO ONE wanted Aunt May back. He also "hated" the idea that she knew he was Spider-Man (as per her death in the beautiful ASM #400) and was having none of that. Back to doddering old fool Aunt May making Peter wheatcakes.

Urgh.


The Spider-Man books were BAD under his watch. The absolute creative low point in the history of the character.

This.

Creators have said in recent years that as EIC, he had no clue what he was doing.

David Aspmo
09-27-2010, 08:52 PM
Does anyone know who wrote and drew this comic? I remember reading it and hating it when it came out but can't remember the creative team.

Here it is in a nutshell: Did you see that stupifyingly atrocious piece-of-crap X-MEN sampler comic in TV GUIDE? My rage had no words. It was a textbook example of how NOT to write and draw something a prospective first-time reader could possibly understand or enjoy or want to see more of. Hell, I’ve been reading comics for 34 years and I had to read it three times to figure out what was going on. TV GUIDE. Eight million households. A once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for new market exposure. And everyone connected with it failed miserably. Fire them. Fire them all. We’re DYIN’ here. We cannot afford to blow ANY opportunity to find new readers.
Was this around the time of the first X-Men movie? Or more recently?

NeverWanderer
09-27-2010, 08:56 PM
Does anyone know who wrote and drew this comic? I remember reading it and hating it when it came out but can't remember the creative team.

Here it is in a nutshell: Did you see that stupifyingly atrocious piece-of-crap X-MEN sampler comic in TV GUIDE? My rage had no words. It was a textbook example of how NOT to write and draw something a prospective first-time reader could possibly understand or enjoy or want to see more of. Hell, I’ve been reading comics for 34 years and I had to read it three times to figure out what was going on. TV GUIDE. Eight million households. A once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for new market exposure. And everyone connected with it failed miserably. Fire them. Fire them all. We’re DYIN’ here. We cannot afford to blow ANY opportunity to find new readers.

I remember the TV Guide comic based on the movie. I believe the artist was Salvador Larocca, but I don't remember who wrote it.

David Aspmo
09-27-2010, 09:14 PM
I remember the TV Guide comic based on the movie. I believe the artist was Salvador Larocca, but I don't remember who wrote it.
If it was around the time of the movie, there's a real good chance it was Claremont. He had just come back to the franchise, and he was at his most impenetrable.

As I remember hearing at the time, the dire state of the X-Men comics being published concurrent with the first movie was one of the main catalysts for Harras being replaced by Quesada (another being Quesada recommending Bendis and Millar for the Ultimate line, while Harras was suggesting the same old stale, mediocre creators - probably indicating that he didn't take the line very seriously). So, if this is what JoeAR was talking about, I guess he got his wish of those responsible being fired.

Ryudo
09-28-2010, 03:44 AM
I wish Kelly would get another go with the series.

I wonder if he'd ever go back to Marvel. :lol:

TIP
09-28-2010, 03:52 AM
I wonder if he'd ever go back to Marvel. :lol:

Oddly enough, I dated Kelly's niece during the early Aughts and--one particular Wednesday afternoon-- had the pleasure of splitting a Crave Case of Sliders and a 12 pack of Keystone Light with Kelly after we bumped into each other at an area comic shop (actually we both reached for the last copy of Ms. Mystic #2 in the 25 cents box and almost came to words but, thankfully, he recognized me by my then omnipresent Team Odin's Ocular Socket Billiards Jersey and, thus, the fact that I had been putting the stones to his aforementioned niece). It was during this impromptu feast that he informed me that, yes, under the proper circumstances he would return to Marvel and showed me a diagram (sketched out on a napkin) of the specific planetary positions in which this would happen.

We're almost there. All that's missing is Jupiter shifting into the House of Money.

T
(I let him have the Ms. Mystic #2)

Artie Pink
09-28-2010, 03:55 AM
Oddly enough, I dated Kelly's niece during the early Aughts and--one particular Wednesday afternoon-- had the pleasure of splitting a Crave Case of Sliders and a 12 pack of Keystone Light with Kelly after we bumped into each other at an area comic shop (actually we both reached for the last copy of Ms. Mystic #2 in the 25 cents box and almost came to words but, thankfully, he recognized me by my then omnipresent Team Odin's Ocular Socket Billiards Jersey and, thus, the fact that I had been putting the stones to his aforementioned niece). It was during this impromptu feast that he informed me that, yes, under the proper circumstances he would return to Marvel and showed me a diagram (sketched out on a napkin) of the specific planetary positions in which this would happen.

We're almost there. All that's missing is Jupiter shifting into the House of Money.

T
(I let him have the Ms. Mystic #2)


:lol:

Christopher Brian
09-28-2010, 03:56 AM
I wonder if he'd ever go back to Marvel. :lol:

Joe Kelly is back at Marvel...wait...you were joking weren't you? I never get the jokes. #fail

Ryudo
09-28-2010, 04:02 AM
Oddly enough, I dated Kelly's niece during the early Aughts and--one particular Wednesday afternoon-- had the pleasure of splitting a Crave Case of Sliders and a 12 pack of Keystone Light with Kelly after we bumped into each other at an area comic shop (actually we both reached for the last copy of Ms. Mystic #2 in the 25 cents box and almost came to words but, thankfully, he recognized me by my then omnipresent Team Odin's Ocular Socket Billiards Jersey and, thus, the fact that I had been putting the stones to his aforementioned niece). It was during this impromptu feast that he informed me that, yes, under the proper circumstances he would return to Marvel and showed me a diagram (sketched out on a napkin) of the specific planetary positions in which this would happen.

We're almost there. All that's missing is Jupiter shifting into the House of Money.

T
(I let him have the Ms. Mystic #2)

:heart: :lol:

PatrickA
09-28-2010, 04:09 AM
I can't speak to his skills as an EIC but I find it interesting that the major gripe fans seem to have against DC is how messed up their trade program is and Harris has been in charge of that.

CBikle
09-28-2010, 04:12 AM
Lobdell's run on the X-books in the 90s was a formative run for me. He's the reason I wanted to write comics

I know the 90's wasn't the best time for well-written comics, but really ?

Lobdell is your gold standard ?

Christopher Brian
09-28-2010, 04:18 AM
I know the 90's wasn't the best time for well-written comics, but really ?

Lobdell is your gold standard ?

I was a big Lobdell fan as well. I was 16 or 17 I think. Loved his stuff. Eventually my tastes matured as I got older but as a teen Scott Lobdell, Fabian Nicieza, Peter David, Mark Waid, etc... were the popular guys. Scott wrote some really good emotional stories (when Illyana died, Scott & Jean deciding to marry, the aftermath of Onslaught, etc...) There were some stinkers in there too but if you are on a book a long time stinkers are going to happen.

NeverWanderer
09-28-2010, 05:04 AM
I know the 90's wasn't the best time for well-written comics, but really ?

Lobdell is your gold standard ?


I was a big Lobdell fan as well. I was 16 or 17 I think. Loved his stuff. Eventually my tastes matured as I got older but as a teen Scott Lobdell, Fabian Nicieza, Peter David, Mark Waid, etc... were the popular guys. Scott wrote some really good emotional stories (when Illyana died, Scott & Jean deciding to marry, the aftermath of Onslaught, etc...) There were some stinkers in there too but if you are on a book a long time stinkers are going to happen.

Exactly. Not everything the man has written blew me away (I tried rereading the Phalanx Saga recently, and that definitely did NOT stand the test of time), but then, not everything Bendis does blows me away. Or Warren Ellis. Or Greg Rucka. And these guys are my favorite writers right now.

(Though... y'know... I don't think I've ever disliked something by Joe Kelly... so he might be the new gold standard.)

(...hmm... or Joss Whedon...)

Anyway, my point is, for some people, Chris Claremont is a god because they grew up with his X-books, and he dug into their imaginations at the right time, when the stories mattered more than the way the story was told. Same goes for me and Lobdell. The dude was writing funny comics with real heart, interesting characters, and intricate plots at a time when anyone else who tried that (except for maybe Peter David and Chuck Dixon) failed miserably. Between his Generation X run and, as Chris said, that issue of Uncanny right after Onslaught, he was the first person to trigger that need to tell stories in me.

His writing may be old-fashioned compared to today's standards, but then, I haven't read any of his new stuff, so maybe he's changed with the times. Then again, I can still go back and reread my Generation X issues and I fall right back into that old reading pattern, so again, yes, I'd absolutely give something new from him a try.

Andreas
09-28-2010, 06:20 AM
As editor I remember him for three things: Scott Lobdell's run on Generation X (#1-28 ), Joe Kelly's run on X-Men (#70-85), and an attempt to revitalize several X-comics with Ellis's Revolution.

Andreas

joeAR
09-28-2010, 06:41 AM
Was this around the time of the first X-Men movie? Or more recently?


If it was around the time of the movie, there's a real good chance it was Claremont. He had just come back to the franchise, and he was at his most impenetrable.

As I remember hearing at the time, the dire state of the X-Men comics being published concurrent with the first movie was one of the main catalysts for Harras being replaced by Quesada (another being Quesada recommending Bendis and Millar for the Ultimate line, while Harras was suggesting the same old stale, mediocre creators - probably indicating that he didn't take the line very seriously). So, if this is what JoeAR was talking about, I guess he got his wish of those responsible being fired.


The first X-Men movie. Claremont does sound right. Such a waisted opportunity right there.

Cth
09-28-2010, 07:04 AM
Didn't have issues surrounding why he left both of those books? I might be remembering incorrectly so it might have nothing to do with editorial issues. forget I said anything.

Yup.

He didn't leave immediately but it built up over a few years.

The first snafu?

Incredible Hulk vol. 2 #360

The only issue he didn't write in his multi-year run, because editorial changed their mind about allowing the Hulk to have a kid. PAD refused to write the issue, and Harass stepped in to write it instead. PAD ended up converting his planned scripts into novel form with WHAT SAVAGE BEAST.

Add in crossovers like Onslaught that disrupted storylines, and then shunting off half the character into Heroes Reborn which made storylines hard to juggle.. finally culminating when they decided they wanted to return the Hulk from what PAD had been developing back to the monosyllabic version from the 70s. Add in the X-Factor stuff, and that was the final straw.

michealdark
09-28-2010, 07:33 AM
So now we have someone new to blame for poor editorial decisions instead of DiDio? I bet Dan's breathing a sigh of relief

Doug
09-28-2010, 07:37 AM
I liked Breach, and it introduced me to Marcos Martin's art.

Adrian B AWESOME
09-28-2010, 07:48 AM
Oddly enough, I dated Kelly's niece during the early Aughts and--one particular Wednesday afternoon-- had the pleasure of splitting a Crave Case of Sliders and a 12 pack of Keystone Light with Kelly after we bumped into each other at an area comic shop (actually we both reached for the last copy of Ms. Mystic #2 in the 25 cents box and almost came to words but, thankfully, he recognized me by my then omnipresent Team Odin's Ocular Socket Billiards Jersey and, thus, the fact that I had been putting the stones to his aforementioned niece). It was during this impromptu feast that he informed me that, yes, under the proper circumstances he would return to Marvel and showed me a diagram (sketched out on a napkin) of the specific planetary positions in which this would happen.

We're almost there. All that's missing is Jupiter shifting into the House of Money.

T
(I let him have the Ms. Mystic #2)

Post of the year!

Marcdachamp
09-28-2010, 08:00 AM
Yup.

He didn't leave immediately but it built up over a few years.

The first snafu?

Incredible Hulk vol. 2 #360

The only issue he didn't write in his multi-year run, because editorial changed their mind about allowing the Hulk to have a kid. PAD refused to write the issue, and Harass stepped in to write it instead. PAD ended up converting his planned scripts into novel form with WHAT SAVAGE BEAST.

Add in crossovers like Onslaught that disrupted storylines, and then shunting off half the character into Heroes Reborn which made storylines hard to juggle.. finally culminating when they decided they wanted to return the Hulk from what PAD had been developing back to the monosyllabic version from the 70s. Add in the X-Factor stuff, and that was the final straw.

What was the "X-Factor stuff?"

Cth
09-28-2010, 08:02 AM
What was the "X-Factor stuff?"

Someone mentioned earlier that PAD couldn't develop long term storylines with X-crossovers every other arc.

Marcdachamp
09-28-2010, 08:07 AM
Someone mentioned earlier that PAD couldn't develop long term storylines with X-crossovers every other arc.

Oh, gotcha.

SteveFlack
09-28-2010, 08:11 AM
One has to wonder though, with a system of Didio/Johns/Lee/Morrison basically calling the shots creatively, how much say would an editor in chief have anyway? Sounds like it more like just appointing someone to watch the offices and make sure everything runs accordingly while the others will spend next to no time physically in New York. I wouldn't be surprised if this has no affect on the general creative direction.

Ziolko
09-28-2010, 08:22 AM
Oddly enough, I dated Kelly's niece during the early Aughts and--one particular Wednesday afternoon-- had the pleasure of splitting a Crave Case of Sliders and a 12 pack of Keystone Light with Kelly after we bumped into each other at an area comic shop (actually we both reached for the last copy of Ms. Mystic #2 in the 25 cents box and almost came to words but, thankfully, he recognized me by my then omnipresent Team Odin's Ocular Socket Billiards Jersey and, thus, the fact that I had been putting the stones to his aforementioned niece). It was during this impromptu feast that he informed me that, yes, under the proper circumstances he would return to Marvel and showed me a diagram (sketched out on a napkin) of the specific planetary positions in which this would happen.

We're almost there. All that's missing is Jupiter shifting into the House of Money.

T
(I let him have the Ms. Mystic #2)

I still have my copy of Ms. Mystic #2.

lonesomefool
09-28-2010, 08:25 AM
One has to wonder though, with a system of Didio/Johns/Lee/Morrison basically calling the shots creatively, how much say would an editor in chief have anyway? Sounds like it more like just appointing someone to watch the offices and make sure everything runs accordingly while the others will spend next to no time physically in New York. I wouldn't be surprised if this has no affect on the general creative direction.

That's my thought process as well.

At least that's what I am hoping for considering his track record.

Jen Grunwald
09-28-2010, 08:51 AM
I give it six months before Nicieza, Lobdell, Loeb and Kavanagh are writing at least half of DC's books.

I'm willing to bet Loeb's contract as head of Marvel Television would prevent that...


:rogue:

Jen Grunwald
09-28-2010, 08:52 AM
Are you kidding? Bendis's proclivity for typos is going to put Jen's kids through college.

AAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! I AM NEVER HAVING KIDS!!!!!!!!!!


:rogue:

TIP
09-28-2010, 09:01 AM
i still have my copy of ms. Mystic #2.

z!!!

Gail Simone
09-28-2010, 09:03 AM
I'm happy about it. Bob's a super nice guy and very well liked.

Dan's expanded job means more help is needed to keep the trains on the track, Bob will be great at this, I think!

Forrest
09-28-2010, 11:00 AM
One has to wonder though, with a system of Didio/Johns/Lee/Morrison basically calling the shots creatively, how much say would an editor in chief have anyway? Sounds like it more like just appointing someone to watch the offices and make sure everything runs accordingly while the others will spend next to no time physically in New York. I wouldn't be surprised if this has no affect on the general creative direction.

That's what I'm thinking as well.

HoldFastNow
09-28-2010, 04:08 PM
If I was Bob Harras the first thing I would do is call Gaiman and approve that SANDMAN prequel he wanted to do. Thing is, it seems like DC has put a lot of effort into trying to get Alan Moore back and we all know that is never going to happen, but Gaiman, even though he is busy with other things, has shown that he doesn't have any animosity towards DC, and is just as big of a sales draw. Even when thing didn't work out with the prequel he still came back and wrote those batman issues (and they were pretty big sellers, if I recall).

bartleby
09-28-2010, 04:10 PM
If I was Bob Harras the first thing I would do is call Gaiman and approve that SANDMAN prequel he wanted to do. Thing is, it seems like DC has put a lot of effort into trying to get Alan Moore back and we all know that is never going to happen, but Gaiman, even though he is busy with other things, has shown that he doesn't have any animosity towards DC, and is just as big of a sales draw. Even when thing didn't work out with the prequel he still came back and wrote those batman issues (and they were pretty big sellers, if I recall).

Supposedly, Gaiman is already doing some possibly uncredited writing for DC on the issues of ACTION COMICS featuring Death.

SteveFlack
09-28-2010, 04:55 PM
If I was Bob Harras the first thing I would do is call Gaiman and approve that SANDMAN prequel he wanted to do. Thing is, it seems like DC has put a lot of effort into trying to get Alan Moore back and we all know that is never going to happen, but Gaiman, even though he is busy with other things, has shown that he doesn't have any animosity towards DC, and is just as big of a sales draw. Even when thing didn't work out with the prequel he still came back and wrote those batman issues (and they were pretty big sellers, if I recall).

First, I doubt Bob Harras has any power that strong. Second, they can't afford Gaiman. He wanted to do a Sandman project for the 20th Anniversary, by DC, in their shortsightedness, could afford him anymore, the money he's making from novels and filmwork just blow that out of the water. Of course, DC should realize that Gaiman books are evergreens that will sell for the next twenty years and never go out of print.

NeverWanderer
09-28-2010, 05:10 PM
Someone on another message board asked a really interesting question that I thought would be worth sharing here:


In your opinion, what would define success for Bob Harras' new job?


I know the first reflex for those against it is snark, but I'm actually interested in reading people's thoughts on this.

This was my answer...


Honestly? Being invisible.

Which isn't to say doing nothing interesting with the properties, but I feel like often when people start paying close attention to the EIC, it's because something's wrong.

If DC continually puts out great, entertaining comics, and the creators are happy and getting main credit for their output, then I think Harras will have done his job beautifully, and we can all look back on his era and say, "Hunh! I completely forgot he was in charge! Good on ya, Harras."

SteveFlack
09-28-2010, 05:18 PM
Someone on another message board asked a really interesting question that I thought would be worth sharing here:



I know the first reflex for those against it is snark, but I'm actually interested in reading people's thoughts on this.

This was my answer...

Also, this completely different than Quesada coming in at Marvel. The marching order there was sweeping change. Take everything he was doing at Marvel Knights and institute it company wide. Here, the marching orders will probably be "Do As We Say" coming down from the big 3 (Didio/Johns/Lee).So, yeah, he probably be invisible, because the other three will be so visible.

HoldFastNow
09-28-2010, 05:18 PM
First, I doubt Bob Harras has any power that strong. Second, they can't afford Gaiman. He wanted to do a Sandman project for the 20th Anniversary, by DC, in their shortsightedness, could afford him anymore, the money he's making from novels and filmwork just blow that out of the water. Of course, DC should realize that Gaiman books are evergreens that will sell for the next twenty years and never go out of print.

What happened was Gaiman said they could raise his royalties on the Sandman graphic novels for a certain amount of time, I think two years or something, to pay him for this book and they wanted it to be a lower increase over a longer period of time and he said "no." I don't know if Harras really has any say over that kind of stuff but if he does and can work that out it would make them a ton of cash because, like you said, the book is going to be evergreen and sell for decades.

Christopher Brian
09-28-2010, 05:42 PM
Also, this completely different than Quesada coming in at Marvel. The marching order there was sweeping change. Take everything he was doing at Marvel Knights and institute it company wide. Here, the marching orders will probably be "Do As We Say" coming down from the big 3 (Didio/Johns/Lee).So, yeah, he probably be invisible, because the other three will be so visible.

I see it the other way. He's EIC and he'll be the one in New York with the talent and the editors while the CCO and the Co-Publishers are going to be on the west coast the majority of the time. He's going to have to do more than just follow edicts from up high to be successful. And seeing as some of the biggest mistakes he's on the hook for at Marvel were edicts from up high I doubt he'd go for a situation that was going to mirror what he went through at Marvel.

Thomas Mauer
09-29-2010, 12:51 AM
I can't speak to his skills as an EIC but I find it interesting that the major gripe fans seem to have against DC is how messed up their trade program is and Harris has been in charge of that.

How long was he the head of collections? In the last few years, DC has started to get its act together a little more in that department, so I'm hoping with his increased influence, he will now sort this all out.

XXXenophile
09-29-2010, 01:18 AM
First, I doubt Bob Harras has any power that strong. Second, they can't afford Gaiman. He wanted to do a Sandman project for the 20th Anniversary, by DC, in their shortsightedness, could afford him anymore, the money he's making from novels and filmwork just blow that out of the water. Of course, DC should realize that Gaiman books are evergreens that will sell for the next twenty years and never go out of print.

That whole thing was never DC's call to begin with. People higher up in Time Warner were the ones who actually told Gaiman no. DC proper had nothing to do with it.

Cause if it was that bad, he'd have never done the "Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader" story.

Mister Mets
09-29-2010, 03:28 AM
He was the one who forced them to end the Clone Saga by resurrecting Norman Osborn, which was incredibly controversial at the time. That probably end up being a good move.


He was the one who decided to shitcan the (actually good) post-Clone Saga writing team in favor of the Mackie/Byrne reboot. The Mackie/ Byrne run was a failure, but the intermediate period between that and the Clone Saga was rather unremarkable.


His worst offence is forcing them to bring Aunt May back in the most retarded way possible, when NO ONE wanted Aunt May back. He also "hated" the idea that she knew he was Spider-Man (as per her death in the beautiful ASM #400) and was having none of that. Back to doddering old fool Aunt May making Peter wheatcakes.

Urgh.



This.

Creators have said in recent years that as EIC, he had no clue what he was doing.Bringing Aunt May back seemed to work out in the end.


Interesting perspective from Warren Ellis's blog (http://www.warrenellis.com/):That was an interesting read.


PAD-Factor was before Harras was EiC, but he was the editor of the x-books at the time. This was the exact same time Harras drove Claremont of X-Men in favor of Jim Lee - only to lose Jim Lee a year later to Image. Oh, and David left X-Factor after only 20 issues citing mistreatment from editorial (primarily, he didn't like getting forced into crossovers).

Peter David also left Hulk under less than happy circumstances only a couple of years after Harras became EiC (after doing the book for almost a decade prior to that), but I can't remember it being because of anything Harras did in particular.

It does seem kind of indicative of the disfunctionality and bad decision-making that was rampant at Marvel back in the 90s, though.It wasn't just a matter of Bob Harras picking Jim Lee over Chris Claremont, though. Lee and Claremont seemed to have fundamental disagreements over the direction of the X-Men line, and Lee's philosophy was closer to Harras'.

If I recall the interviews, Jim Lee wanted more familiar X-Men stories while Claremont wanted to take the series in a different direction. Claremont's preference was riskier and possibly less accessible (especially when Marvel lacked a decent trade program), while Lee's approach was arguably staler and more repetitive.

AndrewG
09-29-2010, 09:46 AM
As people try to place everything bad that ever happened in comics unfairly at Bob Harras' feet, bleeding cool offers some perspective.

.................................................. .................................................

"Bob Harras worked for Jim Lee after leaving Marvel (never doing the contributing work that was promised to the press) from New Jersey before working as group editor for DC Comics collected editions and editor of DC’s new Who’s Who series.

Some see his rapid promotion to Editor-In-Chief as a poisoned chalice now. That DC Entertainment is in serious, uncertain flux. So why not have a safe hand on the tiller who isn’t going to crack under any and all pressure. He’s been an editor-in-chief with a variety of bosses either punching and pushing for more and more profits to pay of debt brought on buy buying the company while making incredibly offensive personal remarks to him. Compared to that, DC is a breeze. Put it this way, members of senior DC management will never tell him that he should kill family members who turned out to be gay.

But is that an underestimation of Bob’s abilities? Remember much of the negativity aimed his way by fans over the likes of Spider-Clones, Onslaughts, Heroes Reborn and Hulk reboots was as a direct result of demand from Marvel executives on high that would eventually bring much of the market to its knees and push Marvel into bankruptcy.

But Bob’s time as an X-title editor saw him recruit Marc Silvestri from King Conan to Uncanny X-Men. He recruited Jim Lee from Punisher War Journal to Uncanny X-Men then X-Men. He recruited Rob Liefeld from Hawk And Dove to New Mutants, then X-Force. He recruited Whilce Portacio from Strikeforce Morituri to Uncanny X-Men. He turned a line of comics that sold a hundred thousand per issue into one that sold millions an issue. And then found a way to transfer that to much of the rest of the line as well. He made more money for Marvel Comics through the sales of their comics than any other editor at the company .

Then when the company as a whole headed into bankruptcy, he did as much as he could, as editor-in-chief to keep the company afloat and return record amounts from the the publishing company, even as the bosses sank it further and further into debt. This eventually cannibalised the readers, destroyed the speculation and colllectable market and diluted the franchises.

He was mocked by Joe Quesada for recommending the likes of Howard Mackie of Scott Lobdell to write Ultimate Spider-Man for Bill Jemas, only for Joe Quesada to suggest Brian Bendis – a move that may have made Quesada’s career. But at the time Bendis was the risky choice, Mackie the safe one.

Right now, with the poor morale and institutionalised fear at the company, a safe pair of hands is what’s needed. Harras should fit right in – what is Final Crisis and Blackest Night but Onslaught and Spider Clones all over again?

And I wouldn’t be surprised if that safe pair of hands finds some gold in them there hills in the form of the next Jim Lee. the next Whilce Portacio, the next Rob Liefeld. Or possibly all the old ones.

I have learned of a number of DC freelancers who have approached Marvel, believing that Bob Harass disliked either their work or, well, them. And while DC editors Eddie Berganza and Ian Sattler may be unsure of their new boss (especially since it seems they believed they were in the running for his position), Michael Marts and Matt Idelson are especially pleased, they have stayed on good terms with Bob since they left Marvel.

And of course, Bob is now editor-in-chief of Vertigo, a new twist. Now, it was his predecessor Tom DeFalco who is attributed to have said that Sleepwalker was Sandman done right, but there does seem to be a clash if sensibilities here… and a further eroding of the autonomy of Vertigo and dilution of Karen Berger’s influence within the company.

But I tell you what. It must be a good time to be be Fabian Niceza. And Scott Lobdell. And, say, what is Howard Mackie up to these days?"

RickLM
09-29-2010, 10:29 AM
As people try to place everything bad that ever happened in comics unfairly at Bob Harras' feet, bleeding cool offers some perspective.

.................................................. .................................................

"Bob Harras worked for Jim Lee after leaving Marvel (never doing the contributing work that was promised to the press) from New Jersey before working as group editor for DC Comics collected editions and editor of DC’s new Who’s Who series.

Some see his rapid promotion to Editor-In-Chief as a poisoned chalice now. That DC Entertainment is in serious, uncertain flux. So why not have a safe hand on the tiller who isn’t going to crack under any and all pressure. He’s been an editor-in-chief with a variety of bosses either punching and pushing for more and more profits to pay of debt brought on buy buying the company while making incredibly offensive personal remarks to him. Compared to that, DC is a breeze. Put it this way, members of senior DC management will never tell him that he should kill family members who turned out to be gay.

But is that an underestimation of Bob’s abilities? Remember much of the negativity aimed his way by fans over the likes of Spider-Clones, Onslaughts, Heroes Reborn and Hulk reboots was as a direct result of demand from Marvel executives on high that would eventually bring much of the market to its knees and push Marvel into bankruptcy.

But Bob’s time as an X-title editor saw him recruit Marc Silvestri from King Conan to Uncanny X-Men. He recruited Jim Lee from Punisher War Journal to Uncanny X-Men then X-Men. He recruited Rob Liefeld from Hawk And Dove to New Mutants, then X-Force. He recruited Whilce Portacio from Strikeforce Morituri to Uncanny X-Men. He turned a line of comics that sold a hundred thousand per issue into one that sold millions an issue. And then found a way to transfer that to much of the rest of the line as well. He made more money for Marvel Comics through the sales of their comics than any other editor at the company .

Then when the company as a whole headed into bankruptcy, he did as much as he could, as editor-in-chief to keep the company afloat and return record amounts from the the publishing company, even as the bosses sank it further and further into debt. This eventually cannibalised the readers, destroyed the speculation and colllectable market and diluted the franchises.

He was mocked by Joe Quesada for recommending the likes of Howard Mackie of Scott Lobdell to write Ultimate Spider-Man for Bill Jemas, only for Joe Quesada to suggest Brian Bendis – a move that may have made Quesada’s career. But at the time Bendis was the risky choice, Mackie the safe one.

Right now, with the poor morale and institutionalised fear at the company, a safe pair of hands is what’s needed. Harras should fit right in – what is Final Crisis and Blackest Night but Onslaught and Spider Clones all over again?

And I wouldn’t be surprised if that safe pair of hands finds some gold in them there hills in the form of the next Jim Lee. the next Whilce Portacio, the next Rob Liefeld. Or possibly all the old ones.

I have learned of a number of DC freelancers who have approached Marvel, believing that Bob Harass disliked either their work or, well, them. And while DC editors Eddie Berganza and Ian Sattler may be unsure of their new boss (especially since it seems they believed they were in the running for his position), Michael Marts and Matt Idelson are especially pleased, they have stayed on good terms with Bob since they left Marvel.

And of course, Bob is now editor-in-chief of Vertigo, a new twist. Now, it was his predecessor Tom DeFalco who is attributed to have said that Sleepwalker was Sandman done right, but there does seem to be a clash if sensibilities here… and a further eroding of the autonomy of Vertigo and dilution of Karen Berger’s influence within the company.

But I tell you what. It must be a good time to be be Fabian Niceza. And Scott Lobdell. And, say, what is Howard Mackie up to these days?"


Sorry, I couldn't get past the dozens of typos to actually understand the point. My 12-year-old writes better than that.

TIP
09-29-2010, 10:34 AM
Cut and Pasted from the BB.

Rod Nunley
09-29-2010, 10:38 AM
Has anyone else ever been EIC at both of the Big Two?

AndrewG
09-29-2010, 10:52 AM
Sorry, I couldn't get past the dozens of typos to actually understand the point. My 12-year-old writes better than that.

The point is that some people are laying the blame of everything bad that happened at Marvel at Harras' feet whether he deserved it or not. The article, typos and all, tries to clear some of it up. Marvel was a very different place under Perlman than it was under Jemas or Buckley

bartleby
09-29-2010, 10:57 AM
The point is that some people are laying the blame of everything bad that happened at Marvel at Harras' feet whether he deserved it or not.

That's what happens when you're the man at the top of the food chain.

Adrian B AWESOME
09-29-2010, 11:02 AM
As people try to place everything bad that ever happened in comics unfairly at Bob Harras' feet, bleeding cool offers some perspective.

.................................................. .................................................

"Bob Harras worked for Jim Lee after leaving Marvel (never doing the contributing work that was promised to the press) from New Jersey before working as group editor for DC Comics collected editions and editor of DC’s new Who’s Who series.

Some see his rapid promotion to Editor-In-Chief as a poisoned chalice now. That DC Entertainment is in serious, uncertain flux. So why not have a safe hand on the tiller who isn’t going to crack under any and all pressure. He’s been an editor-in-chief with a variety of bosses either punching and pushing for more and more profits to pay of debt brought on buy buying the company while making incredibly offensive personal remarks to him. Compared to that, DC is a breeze. Put it this way, members of senior DC management will never tell him that he should kill family members who turned out to be gay.

But is that an underestimation of Bob’s abilities? Remember much of the negativity aimed his way by fans over the likes of Spider-Clones, Onslaughts, Heroes Reborn and Hulk reboots was as a direct result of demand from Marvel executives on high that would eventually bring much of the market to its knees and push Marvel into bankruptcy.

But Bob’s time as an X-title editor saw him recruit Marc Silvestri from King Conan to Uncanny X-Men. He recruited Jim Lee from Punisher War Journal to Uncanny X-Men then X-Men. He recruited Rob Liefeld from Hawk And Dove to New Mutants, then X-Force. He recruited Whilce Portacio from Strikeforce Morituri to Uncanny X-Men. He turned a line of comics that sold a hundred thousand per issue into one that sold millions an issue. And then found a way to transfer that to much of the rest of the line as well. He made more money for Marvel Comics through the sales of their comics than any other editor at the company .

Then when the company as a whole headed into bankruptcy, he did as much as he could, as editor-in-chief to keep the company afloat and return record amounts from the the publishing company, even as the bosses sank it further and further into debt. This eventually cannibalised the readers, destroyed the speculation and colllectable market and diluted the franchises.

He was mocked by Joe Quesada for recommending the likes of Howard Mackie of Scott Lobdell to write Ultimate Spider-Man for Bill Jemas, only for Joe Quesada to suggest Brian Bendis – a move that may have made Quesada’s career. But at the time Bendis was the risky choice, Mackie the safe one.

Right now, with the poor morale and institutionalised fear at the company, a safe pair of hands is what’s needed. Harras should fit right in – what is Final Crisis and Blackest Night but Onslaught and Spider Clones all over again?

And I wouldn’t be surprised if that safe pair of hands finds some gold in them there hills in the form of the next Jim Lee. the next Whilce Portacio, the next Rob Liefeld. Or possibly all the old ones.

I have learned of a number of DC freelancers who have approached Marvel, believing that Bob Harass disliked either their work or, well, them. And while DC editors Eddie Berganza and Ian Sattler may be unsure of their new boss (especially since it seems they believed they were in the running for his position), Michael Marts and Matt Idelson are especially pleased, they have stayed on good terms with Bob since they left Marvel.

And of course, Bob is now editor-in-chief of Vertigo, a new twist. Now, it was his predecessor Tom DeFalco who is attributed to have said that Sleepwalker was Sandman done right, but there does seem to be a clash if sensibilities here… and a further eroding of the autonomy of Vertigo and dilution of Karen Berger’s influence within the company.

But I tell you what. It must be a good time to be be Fabian Niceza. And Scott Lobdell. And, say, what is Howard Mackie up to these days?"

Really? Is Rich Johnston really stealing from message boards this blatantly now?

Nice to see that Bendis' "comics "journalism" is a joke because of cut and paste artists" really hit home with Rich. Plagiarism is awesome.

AndrewG
09-29-2010, 11:02 AM
That's what happens when you're the man at the top of the food chain.

To a certain extent yeah. But I've seen instances (for example) where people are blaming him for the Clone Saga. Harras was the guy who came in and put an end to the story when it lingered for years under three different EICs who couldn't do it, partly by bringing back Ralph Macchio to the fold. Blame him for the things he actually did do that you didn't like.

AndrewG
09-29-2010, 11:03 AM
Really? Is Rich Johnston really stealing from message boards this blatantly now?

Nice to see that Bendis' "comics "journalism" is a joke because of cut and paste artists" really hit home with Rich. Plagiarism is awesome.

?

Was that last line taken from here?

bartleby
09-29-2010, 11:06 AM
Really? Is Rich Johnston really stealing from message boards this blatantly now?

As much as it pains me to defend Rich, that's a pretty obvious punch line.

Adrian B AWESOME
09-29-2010, 11:06 AM
?

Was that last line taken from here?

In as such. Most of the observations were.


Plagiarism is defined in dictionaries as "the wrongful appropriation, close imitation, or purloining and publication, of another author's language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions, and the representation of them as one's own original work."

Adrian B AWESOME
09-29-2010, 11:09 AM
As much as it pains me to defend Rich, that's a pretty obvious punch line.


I give it six months before Nicieza, Lobdell, Loeb and Kavanagh are writing at least half of DC's books.


Don't forget Mackie!

Loeb would be a bit of a feat, though.

Just because it's worded differently doesn't mean it's not plagiarized. And considering many of those observations being made a day and a half to when this was posted on his site, I call bullshit.

TIP
09-29-2010, 11:10 AM
I knew that shit looked familiar.

Thanks, Reeding Jool!

Jef UK
09-29-2010, 12:34 PM
I can't believe all those Vertigo editors got fired today.

Jef UK
09-29-2010, 12:38 PM
As people try to place everything bad that ever happened in comics unfairly at Bob Harras' feet, bleeding cool offers some perspective.

.................................................. .................................................

"Bob Harras worked for Jim Lee after leaving Marvel (never doing the contributing work that was promised to the press) from New Jersey before working as group editor for DC Comics collected editions and editor of DC’s new Who’s Who series.

Some see his rapid promotion to Editor-In-Chief as a poisoned chalice now. That DC Entertainment is in serious, uncertain flux. So why not have a safe hand on the tiller who isn’t going to crack under any and all pressure. He’s been an editor-in-chief with a variety of bosses either punching and pushing for more and more profits to pay of debt brought on buy buying the company while making incredibly offensive personal remarks to him. Compared to that, DC is a breeze. Put it this way, members of senior DC management will never tell him that he should kill family members who turned out to be gay.

But is that an underestimation of Bob’s abilities? Remember much of the negativity aimed his way by fans over the likes of Spider-Clones, Onslaughts, Heroes Reborn and Hulk reboots was as a direct result of demand from Marvel executives on high that would eventually bring much of the market to its knees and push Marvel into bankruptcy.

But Bob’s time as an X-title editor saw him recruit Marc Silvestri from King Conan to Uncanny X-Men. He recruited Jim Lee from Punisher War Journal to Uncanny X-Men then X-Men. He recruited Rob Liefeld from Hawk And Dove to New Mutants, then X-Force. He recruited Whilce Portacio from Strikeforce Morituri to Uncanny X-Men. He turned a line of comics that sold a hundred thousand per issue into one that sold millions an issue. And then found a way to transfer that to much of the rest of the line as well. He made more money for Marvel Comics through the sales of their comics than any other editor at the company .

Then when the company as a whole headed into bankruptcy, he did as much as he could, as editor-in-chief to keep the company afloat and return record amounts from the the publishing company, even as the bosses sank it further and further into debt. This eventually cannibalised the readers, destroyed the speculation and colllectable market and diluted the franchises.

He was mocked by Joe Quesada for recommending the likes of Howard Mackie of Scott Lobdell to write Ultimate Spider-Man for Bill Jemas, only for Joe Quesada to suggest Brian Bendis – a move that may have made Quesada’s career. But at the time Bendis was the risky choice, Mackie the safe one.

Right now, with the poor morale and institutionalised fear at the company, a safe pair of hands is what’s needed. Harras should fit right in – what is Final Crisis and Blackest Night but Onslaught and Spider Clones all over again?

And I wouldn’t be surprised if that safe pair of hands finds some gold in them there hills in the form of the next Jim Lee. the next Whilce Portacio, the next Rob Liefeld. Or possibly all the old ones.

I have learned of a number of DC freelancers who have approached Marvel, believing that Bob Harass disliked either their work or, well, them. And while DC editors Eddie Berganza and Ian Sattler may be unsure of their new boss (especially since it seems they believed they were in the running for his position), Michael Marts and Matt Idelson are especially pleased, they have stayed on good terms with Bob since they left Marvel.

And of course, Bob is now editor-in-chief of Vertigo, a new twist. Now, it was his predecessor Tom DeFalco who is attributed to have said that Sleepwalker was Sandman done right, but there does seem to be a clash if sensibilities here… and a further eroding of the autonomy of Vertigo and dilution of Karen Berger’s influence within the company.

But I tell you what. It must be a good time to be be Fabian Niceza. And Scott Lobdell. And, say, what is Howard Mackie up to these days?"

I don't care about Bob Harris' successes at making publishing profitable with bad comics. I care about reading good comics about characters in which I'm interested.

SteveFlack
09-29-2010, 12:52 PM
I can't believe all those Vertigo editors got fired today.

I can. They just lost all of their stock characters, with the exception of John Constantine. And now, most of their content is creator-owned, which isn't good for Warner's new DC MO: exploit characters we own lock, stock & barrel through other aspects of media. Also, their original graphic novels, while critically lauded, don't sell very well and are very expensive.

In the end, expect to see Vertigo become more like Icon: a place where creators who DC wants to keep happy will take their creator owned titles.

SteveFlack
09-29-2010, 12:54 PM
Also, I just read this interesting report from Brian Hibbs over at Savage Critics, about how DC books sell at his store. And the downsizing of Vertigo sounds like a terrible idea.

http://www.savagecritic.com/brian/vertigo-an-observation/


I’ve had Point-of-Sale installed for just over 3 years now. One spiffy thing is that it is pretty easy to pull out sales data in specific and in general.

So, I yanked all of my book format sales for DC this morning (no comics included!), and found out that over the last 3 years I’ve sold ~$183k in dollars of DC TPs.

Of that, $88k is from Vertigo branded books. $68k is from books with the DC bullet on the spine. $25k is WS, and the various imprints there. $2k is from “other” imprints (Piranha, Humanoids, and so on)

If you were to divide the WS books into “closer to DC” and “closer to Vertigo” (ie: PLANETARY, PROMETHEA, ASTRO CITY, EX MACHINA, and so on going in the “Vertigo” pile, AUTHORITY and all of the cape books going in the “DC” pile) about $21k of WS’ business would be on the Vertigo side, with $4k on the DC side.

This would put “Vertigo-esque” material at roughly 60% of my DC book sales. That percentage probably flips entirely the other way when looking at periodicals (actually, probably worse — maybe as high as 80/20, though i don’t feel like yanking that data out)

About 11% of my “DC” book dollars, however, are from WATCHMEN alone. It has the DC bullet on the side. If it had been published after Vertigo existed, I suspect it would have Vert branding.

Another note: I have to purge somewhere between 10-15% of my DCU books each year when they go 12 months without selling (and we’re racking, at this point, maybe 60% of each month’s brand new DCU TPs?) — I’ve purged like five Vertigo titles ever for lack of sales (and I rack 100% of what they release)

Anyway, Vertigo books are far more important to my book-format bottom line than DCU books.

Just sayin’

-B

bartleby
09-29-2010, 12:57 PM
I really do think that DC is underestimating how important the Vertigo brand is to those books. There are lots of people that will buy a SANDMAN trade paperback published under the Vertigo label that probably wouldn't touch it if it was a DC book.

Gregory
09-29-2010, 01:02 PM
I really do think that DC is underestimating how important the Vertigo brand is to those books. There are lots of people that will buy a SANDMAN trade paperback published under the Vertigo label that probably wouldn't touch it if it was a DC book.

I'm not sure if the imprint logo matters so long as the content is unchanged.

While I'm not for people losing their jobs, I think a branding shake-up of Vertigo is helpful. I haven't been drawn in by any Vertigo title I've tried for years now (Sweet Tooth, Unwritten, Greek Street, Fables, etc.) because they feel so similar. Ex Machina felt like the best Vertigo book published by someone else.

Jen Grunwald
09-29-2010, 01:11 PM
I can. They just lost all of their stock characters, with the exception of John Constantine. And now, most of their content is creator-owned, which isn't good for Warner's new DC MO: exploit characters we own lock, stock & barrel through other aspects of media. Also, their original graphic novels, while critically lauded, don't sell very well and are very expensive.

In the end, expect to see Vertigo become more like Icon: a place where creators who DC wants to keep happy will take their creator owned titles.

Can you link me to this story or something? Why did everyone get fired? Why did they lose their characters? Who? Huh? WHAT'S GOING ON?!


:rogue:

bartleby
09-29-2010, 01:13 PM
Why did they lose their characters? Who? Huh? WHAT'S GOING ON?!

DC proper has been reabsorbing the Vertigo characters that originally started as part of the DC Universe like Sandman and Swamp Thing.

Jen Grunwald
09-29-2010, 01:13 PM
I'm not sure if the imprint logo matters so long as the content is unchanged.

While I'm not for people losing their jobs, I think a branding shake-up of Vertigo is helpful. I haven't been drawn in by any Vertigo title I've tried for years now (Sweet Tooth, Unwritten, Greek Street, Fables, etc.) because they feel so similar. Ex Machina felt like the best Vertigo book published by someone else.

Wow. I LOVE Fables, it's steadily been one of my FAVOURITE books! And Sweet Tooth is pretty great and I've enjoyed Daytripper as well.

If it wasn't for Vertigo, I'd read almost NO DC now. And still I think the best Vertigo stuff is in the past (Sandman, Preacher, Books of Magic). Except for Fables. Man, I REALLY love that book!


:rogue:

Jen Grunwald
09-29-2010, 01:17 PM
DC proper has been reabsorbing the Vertigo characters that originally started as part of the DC Universe like Sandman and Swamp Thing.

Oooooh. So they're not lost, just not in Vertigo. Gotcha. But which Sandman?


:rogue:

A.Huerta
09-29-2010, 01:19 PM
This is not good.

HoldFastNow
09-29-2010, 01:23 PM
I'm not sure if the imprint logo matters so long as the content is unchanged.

While I'm not for people losing their jobs, I think a branding shake-up of Vertigo is helpful. I haven't been drawn in by any Vertigo title I've tried for years now (Sweet Tooth, Unwritten, Greek Street, Fables, etc.) because they feel so similar. Ex Machina felt like the best Vertigo book published by someone else.


I know a lot of people who will buy anything Vertigo and not bother with DC proper. I think there is a certain connotation that Vertigo is like the HBO of comics, and for people who don't follow this kind of stuff online it acts as sort of an indicator that what is inside isn't superheroes or isn't really connected to 70+ years of continuity. It also has the image of being for older readers, which is important because a lot of people still view comics and especially superhero comics as only for kids. I see a lot of people who try one Vertigo book, like Y for example, and then jump right into Fables or Preacher or something. The label makes it easy to do that, versus researching online what books someone might like if they liked Y.

Jef UK
09-29-2010, 01:25 PM
Can you link me to this story or something? Why did everyone get fired? Why did they lose their characters? Who? Huh? WHAT'S GOING ON?!


:rogue:

Here's the report on the Vertigo layoffs that I read: http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2010/09/three-vertigo-editors-laid-off-amid-dc-entertainment-restructuring/

GrandeMaestro Fünke
09-29-2010, 01:25 PM
Oooooh. So they're not lost, just not in Vertigo. Gotcha. But which Sandman?


:rogue:

Gaiman's one. Paul Cornell is going to use Death in his Action Comics run.

HoldFastNow
09-29-2010, 01:25 PM
Oooooh. So they're not lost, just not in Vertigo. Gotcha. But which Sandman?


:rogue:

I think the Mystery Theatre Sandman has been appearing in mainstream DC for awhile in JSA. With Gaiman's Sandman, Death is going to be in an issue of Action Comics, but that was done with Gaiman's blessing (and apparently he wrote most of her lines). I haven't heard anything else about the Sandman characters being used in DC proper, though.

WhindamPryce
09-29-2010, 01:28 PM
It doesn't matter to me either way. As long as the DC books I'm reading (Action, Morrison stuff, Scalped, Fables) is unaffected I'm cool.

My experience with Harras is more limited than the rest of the people in this thread. My very first comic was Uncanny 335 which was right at the start of Onslaught. I was 11 years old and the only other superhero exposure I'd had was the X-men cartoon. So for me, the X-men comics the way they were for the rest of the decade were totally fine with me. I didn't know/care about creators leaving or why. Obviously now I know better as far as accepting more quality in my comics rather than liking it just because it says X-men on the cover. It all started to change when Joe Q started at Marvel. So I don't really care what bad things Harras is responsible for, since he left Marvel right as Joe Q came and that was right when I started maturing as a reader (when he started Daredevil; I started reading DC and indie stuff around that time).

The point of that diatribe? I don't think I have one. Just wanted to say it. :lol:

Jen Grunwald
09-29-2010, 01:33 PM
Gaiman's one. Paul Cornell is going to use Death in his Action Comics run.

Death is one thing (for some reason I see her fitting in a little better) but Sandman and the rest of the Endless in DC Proper?? Now that's just weird...and kinda wrong... Ugh. I really hope they don't do stupid shit.


:rogue:

Jen Grunwald
09-29-2010, 01:34 PM
With Gaiman's Sandman, Death is going to be in an issue of Action Comics, but that was done with Gaiman's blessing (and apparently he wrote most of her lines)

That's kinda cool. I hope they get his approval always...


:rogue:

Andreas
09-29-2010, 01:37 PM
Death is one thing (for some reason I see her fitting in a little better) but Sandman and the rest of the Endless in DC Proper?? Now that's just weird...and kinda wrong... Ugh. I really hope they don't do stupid shit.


:rogue:

I still have fond memories of the time when Death appeared in one of Marvel's comics. 8)

Slewo.O
09-29-2010, 01:39 PM
That's kinda cool. I hope they get his approval always...

:rogue:

The Death appearance is pretty awesome so far. And just because they're bringing some Vertigo characters back to DC doesn't mean it'll be regular appearances or something like the Death issue. I mean the Mystery theatre Sandman was just a more noir version of the Golden Age Sandman. The current one just riffs off that costume.

Jen Grunwald
09-29-2010, 01:52 PM
I still have fond memories of the time when Death appeared in one of Marvel's comics. 8)

?


:rogue:

SteveFlack
09-29-2010, 01:53 PM
That's kinda cool. I hope they get his approval always...


:rogue:

I think they will, they don't want to turn Neil Gaiman into another Alan Moore. That would be a problem.

Andrew
09-29-2010, 02:00 PM
That probably end up being a good move.

I'm personally fine with it because I like Norman Osborn as a character, but the point is, he forced the writers to bring him back despite none of them wanting to. That's not what an EIC should be doing. Harras was a notorious micromanager. It also doesn't help that with the exception of J.M. DeMatteis' run on Spectacular Spider-Man shortly after the Clone Saga, Norman was never written very well at all until Warren Ellis wrote him in Thunderbolts over a decade later.


The Mackie/ Byrne run was a failure, but the intermediate period between that and the Clone Saga was rather unremarkable.

J.M. DeMatteis was doing some pretty interesting stuff in Spectacular, but yes, overall you're right. However, that period is a direct reflection of Bob Harras' influence on the books as he was the man in charge by that point.


Bringing Aunt May back seemed to work out in the end.

That's highly debatable.

Slewo.O
09-29-2010, 02:02 PM
?

:rogue:
How about the time Marvel tried to copy-cat Nightmare into Dream?



I think they will, they don't want to turn Neil Gaiman into another Alan Moore. That would be a problem.
Impossible! Neil Gaiman is way too sexy to become Alan Moore. The beard is the source of Moore's power.

PhilipClark
09-29-2010, 02:48 PM
Death is one thing (for some reason I see her fitting in a little better) but Sandman and the rest of the Endless in DC Proper?? Now that's just weird...and kinda wrong... Ugh. I really hope they don't do stupid shit.


:rogue:

Actually, Destiny was in DC Proper for a long time before he was officially an Endless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destiny_(DC_Comics)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/35/Superman_v1_352.jpg

Thomas Mauer
09-30-2010, 02:58 AM
?


:rogue:

I think he refers to the Deadpool & Death Annual from 1998.

Andreas
09-30-2010, 03:08 AM
I think he refers to the Deadpool & Death Annual from 1998.

Now this is one I haven't heard of yet. :eek:

EDIT: Nope, Marvel's Death does not count. ;)


I was thinking of The Incredible Hulk #418 (http://www.comicbookdb.com/issue.php?ID=19029) (June 1994). But I recently learned of a cameo in Bendis' New Avengers #28 (http://www.comicbookdb.com/issue.php?ID=87829) (May 2007).

Cth
09-30-2010, 07:35 AM
How about the time Marvel tried to copy-cat Nightmare into Dream?


Remember "Sleepwalker is Sandman done right"

Good times.. :lol:

Flonk
09-30-2010, 10:14 AM
I thought Didio was EIC.

Don't call him Chief.

Slewo.O
09-30-2010, 10:16 AM
Remember "Sleepwalker is Sandman done right"

Good times.. :lol:

Where did that come from?

Also Destiny re-appeared in Mark Waid's "The Brave and the Bold" run a couple years ago and Daniel Hall as Dream has appeared several times in JLA and JSA.

So it's not like it's impossible to tell stories with the Endless in DC, you just don't make an ongoing habit of it.

Tom Foolery
09-30-2010, 02:06 PM
Good for Bob Harras! I always felt he was an exceptional line editor, and got a bad deal when he was fired as EIC because of the mess Pearlman had created.

I am sure that quite a few people that Quesada has blown off in favor of his boys are trying to position themselves to get gigs at DC. I see Busiek running around and fighting with everybody who's daring to say anything bad about Harras, so he's obviously trying to resurrect his floundering career! :lol:

I wonder what John Byrne thinks? He was given a lot of work during the Harras regime, and it seems to be one of the few bridges he hasn't Byrned.


But Bob’s time as an X-title editor saw him recruit Marc Silvestri from King Conan to Uncanny X-Men.

I just wanted to correct this comment that was posted from Bleeding Cool. It was Ann Nocenti that hired Silvestri on Uncanny X-Men, and it wasn't from King Conan. He was the regular penciler on Web of Spider-Man for a short time, and then he was doing the Avengers vs the X-Men mini series. That mini led to Nocenti hiring him on Uncanny X-Men.

Any word from Al Milgrom?

bartleby
09-30-2010, 02:09 PM
I am sure that quite a few people that Quesada replaced with better writers are kissing Bob Harras's ass to get gigs at DC.

Fixed that for you.

Tom Foolery
09-30-2010, 02:12 PM
Fixed that for you.

Don't need my words fixed for me, thanks. If you have something to say, just say it, don't feel the need to change what others say. ;-)

Andrew
09-30-2010, 02:50 PM
I wonder what John Byrne thinks? He was given a lot of work during the Harras regime, and it seems to be one of the few bridges he hasn't Byrned.

And that's fantastic. Harras and Byrne can do shitty stories together again! Glad I'm a Marvel reader. :)

HoldFastNow
09-30-2010, 02:59 PM
I am sure that quite a few people that Quesada has blown off in favor of his boys are trying to position themselves to get gigs at DC. I see Busiek running around and fighting with everybody who's daring to say anything bad about Harras, so he's obviously trying to resurrect his floundering career! :lol:



I wouldn't say his career is floundering or in need of resurrection. He's been working pretty consistently the past decade. The guy had a pretty solid run on Superman not too long ago plus his Astro City stuff is still good.

Tom Foolery
09-30-2010, 03:20 PM
And that's fantastic. Harras and Byrne can do shitty stories together again! Glad I'm a Marvel reader. :)

I enjoyed Hidden Years.

It will definitely be interesting to see how the creative people in the industry are affected by this, though.

Has anyone heard if Harras made a statement?

artimoff
09-30-2010, 03:44 PM
Death is one thing (for some reason I see her fitting in a little better) but Sandman and the rest of the Endless in DC Proper?? Now that's just weird...and kinda wrong... Ugh. I really hope they don't do stupid shit.


:rogue:


Cain, Abel & Destiny started out as DC characters in the 70's.

Simps
09-30-2010, 03:49 PM
Death is one thing (for some reason I see her fitting in a little better) but Sandman and the rest of the Endless in DC Proper?? Now that's just weird...and kinda wrong... Ugh. I really hope they don't do stupid shit.


:rogue:

Morrison used Sandman (Daniel, not Morpheus) in JLA years ago, and there didn't see to be anything wrong with that.

Masculine Todd
09-30-2010, 04:04 PM
I'd love to see Byrne penciling again at DC.

lonesomefool
09-30-2010, 04:10 PM
I'd love to see Byrne penciling again at DC.

I'm mixed on that actually. On one hand, his Action Comics run was enjoyable, but his inker, Nelson, apparently changed a lot of his original renderings. It also helped that the overall tone of that run with Simone was a pretty fun, semi-old school approach to Superman.

Part of the problem with Byrne is that he really hasnt updated his "style" much and often it looks a little dated. That said, I think putting him on Adventure Comics with Levitz would make a crap ton of sense.

RichJohnston
10-04-2010, 03:28 PM
Just because it's worded differently doesn't mean it's not plagiarized. And considering many of those observations being made a day and a half to when this was posted on his site, I call bullshit.

You'd be wrong.

Adrian B AWESOME
10-04-2010, 03:32 PM
You'd be wrong.

Red light! That's mine, Rich! Totally original from me!

RichJohnston
10-04-2010, 03:32 PM
Really? Is Rich Johnston really stealing from message boards this blatantly now?

Nice to see that Bendis' "comics "journalism" is a joke because of cut and paste artists" really hit home with Rich. Plagiarism is awesome.

Just so you know, if I use stuff from message boards, and it does happen, I credit and link. Nothing in this piece was sourced from the Bendis board or indeed any board.

Adrian B AWESOME
10-04-2010, 03:34 PM
Just so you know, if I use stuff from message boards, and it does happen, I credit and link. Nothing in this piece was sourced from the Bendis board or indeed any board.

Vanity search!!

bartleby
10-04-2010, 03:34 PM
Just so you know, if I use stuff from message boards, and it does happen, I credit and link. Nothing in this piece was sourced from the Bendis board or indeed any board.

I guess that other guy on your site also didn't steal this from the Bendis Board:

Deadline are calling Snyder “an inspired choice” and “a cornerstone filmmaker for Warner Bros”, whole [sic] Teh [sic] Internets are calling him “that speed ramping guy”.

RichJohnston
10-05-2010, 01:11 AM
I guess that other guy on your site also didn't steal this from the Bendis Board:

Deadline are calling Snyder “an inspired choice” and “a cornerstone filmmaker for Warner Bros”, whole [sic] Teh [sic] Internets are calling him “that speed ramping guy”.

I doubt Brendon has even read the Bendis Board. He doesn't read comics. He may have a vague idea who Brian is, but only after I've gone on about him.

RichJohnston
10-05-2010, 01:12 AM
Vanity search!!

Actually in this case, a Bendis boarder who emailed me.

TIP
10-05-2010, 03:49 AM
Actually in this case, a Bendis boarder who emailed me.

*sigh*

Grima Wormtongue is incorrigible.

Ryudo
10-05-2010, 04:16 AM
Just so you know, if I use stuff from message boards, and it does happen, I credit and link. Nothing in this piece was sourced from the Bendis board or indeed any board.

"If."

lulz.

Adrian B AWESOME
10-05-2010, 07:59 AM
Actually in this case, a Bendis boarder who emailed me.

You should've put yellow light in front of it, that way, you're covering your own ass.

allanpat
10-05-2010, 08:42 AM
Just stumbled upon this:

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2005/06/16/comic-book-urban-legends-revealed-3/

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/inkersrevenge.jpg


More interesting than that is that Wonder Girl never existed & was added to the Teen Titans by mistake! She was just supposed to be the Wonder Woman as a teenager.

No wonder her origin is so effed up...



COMIC URBAN LEGEND: Wonder Girl was added to the Teen Titans by mistake.

STATUS: True

In the 1960s, writer Bob Haney was writing The Brave and the Bold. He used the title to team up various DC superheroes, like The Atom and the Metal Men or Aquaman and Hawkman.

In any event, in mid-1964, he teamed up the sidekicks of three major superheroes in The Brave and the Bold #54, which starred Robin, Kid Flash and Aqualad.

The pairing was quite popular, so exactly a year later, Haney reintroduced the team in The Brave and the Bold #60, only this time known as the Teen Titans.

However, in the late 50s, writer Robert Kanigher, in the pages of Wonder Woman, had decided to give Wonder Woman the same approach that Superman was given, by telling tales of when Wonder Woman was a toddler (Wonder Tot) and a young girl (Wonder Girl).

These stories proved to be quite popular (so popular that, by 1965, there would be issues where Wonder Girl’s name would be larger than Wonder Woman’s on the title of the comic), so Kanigher’s next step was, in the early 60s, to tell “impossible tales” where there would be a team-up of Wonder Woman, herself as a toddler, herself as a girl, and her mother.

Like this issue, for instance…

Image hosted by Photobucket.com

Or this one (gotta love how Wonder Tot spoke)…

Image hosted by Photobucket.com

Or, finally, this one (notice how it stresses that this pairing is IMPOSSIBLE)…

Image hosted by Photobucket.com

Well, Bob Haney must have casually glanced at one of these issues (which were coming out at the same time he was writing The Brave and the Bold) and when he decided to make a team of sidekicks, he figured that this Wonder Girl was Wonder Woman’s sidekick, so he added her to the Teen Titans in #60.

A sea of complicated origins explaining this Wonder Girl were still to come.

capntightpants
10-05-2010, 11:06 AM
Vanity search!!

Who wants to play Bloody Rich Johnston in the bathroom mirror with me?

Arion
10-05-2010, 12:24 PM
More interesting than that is that Wonder Girl never existed & was added to the Teen Titans by mistake! She was just supposed to be the Wonder Woman as a teenager.

No wonder her origin is so effed up...

Oh, poor Wonder Girl.