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View Full Version : How Lame is Martian Manhunter?



AndrewG
09-24-2010, 10:34 AM
Sure there are a lot of lame characters out there but most of them appear a couple times and go back into the abyss never to be seen from again. In terms of characters that have survived the test of time, is he the lamest character in comics?


Poll forthcoming

Ray G.
09-24-2010, 10:34 AM
:nonono2:

Fail.

Ashwin Pande
09-24-2010, 10:35 AM
None. None lame.

The Human Target
09-24-2010, 10:36 AM
I gotta say. Pretty lame.

But with the potential to be cool.

anThONY_s
09-24-2010, 10:36 AM
He's as powerful as Superman.

Why does everyone forget that?

A.Huerta
09-24-2010, 10:36 AM
Captain Marvel, Batman, Green Lantern and MArtian Manhunter are my favorite DC characters.

So, No.

AndrewG
09-24-2010, 10:37 AM
He's as powerful as Superman.

Why does everyone forget that?

But a match will send him off screaming

Brother Power the Gong
09-24-2010, 10:37 AM
This thread should be set on fire.

Superior Kiai
09-24-2010, 10:37 AM
This is a new low for you... :nonono2:

TheKraken
09-24-2010, 10:39 AM
But a match will send him off screaming

Green Lantern could traditionally be defeated by urine. Dumb weaknesses a staple of DC comics.

Ego Lives!
09-24-2010, 10:39 AM
:mad:

Howlett
09-24-2010, 10:40 AM
:lol:

AndrewG
09-24-2010, 10:40 AM
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080630121055/marvel_dc/images/3/37/Death_of_the_Martian_Manhunter.jpg

For those of you who aren't big DC fans, the Martian translation of M'YRI'AH
is 'I'm Lame'

Ryan Elliott
09-24-2010, 10:42 AM
Not lame at all.

And Superman can be driven off by even a sliver of his own home planet.

Pretty lame too, if we go that route.

The Human Target
09-24-2010, 10:42 AM
He's as powerful as Superman.

Why does everyone forget that?

Thats a huge part of his lameness.

- mildly stupid code name

- stupid real name (J'onn J'onzz? really?)

- the backstory of superman, pretty much

- the powers of Superman (but with invisibility, phasing, shape changing, and telepathy)

- lame costume (though the new one is better)

- is a creppy looking alien that decides to change his shape to fit in with humans but ends up looking just as creepy and inhuman and much less cool.

Brother Power the Gong
09-24-2010, 10:42 AM
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080630121055/marvel_dc/images/3/37/Death_of_the_Martian_Manhunter.jpg

For those of you who aren't big DC fans, the Martian translation of M'YRI'AH
is 'I'm Lame'

Well, well, Batman is … a … uh … DAMMIT! I CAN'T TALK SHIT ABOUT BATMAN!


M'YRI'AH!

AndrewG
09-24-2010, 10:43 AM
Sneak peek at the forthcoming 'Greatest Martian Manhunter Stories Ever Told' TPB


http://jasoncarrwrites.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/blank-pages.jpg

AndrewG
09-24-2010, 10:44 AM
Thats a huge part of his lameness.

- mildly stupid code name

- stupid real name (J'onn J'onzz? really?)

- the backstory of superman, pretty much

- the powers of Superman (but with invisibility, phasing, shape changing, and telepathy)

- lame costume (though the new one is better)

- is a creppy looking alien that decides to change his shape to fit in with humans but ends up looking just as creepy and inhuman and much less cool.

You are absolutely correct

Howlett
09-24-2010, 10:46 AM
Sneak peek at the forthcoming 'Greatest Martian Manhunter Stories Ever Told' TPB


http://jasoncarrwrites.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/blank-pages.jpg

:rofl:

Xorn
09-24-2010, 10:47 AM
his one million story featuring kyle rayner was uber-awesome.

The Human Target
09-24-2010, 10:48 AM
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080630121055/marvel_dc/images/3/37/Death_of_the_Martian_Manhunter.jpg

For those of you who aren't big DC fans, the Martian translation of M'YRI'AH
is 'I'm Lame'

This picture makes me laugh as it appears Doctor Light is hiding his eyes because Libra's sword is too bright.

AndrewG
09-24-2010, 10:51 AM
http://bp1.blogger.com/_X2Flh5CSe80/SFRm0DNL-kI/AAAAAAAABOw/lTs8QU4eSGE/s400/Slim+Green+Lord+of+glam+rock.jpg

Benel Germosen
09-24-2010, 10:55 AM
Didn't Ostrander and Mandrake do a MM book?

Yeah. Not lame of Ostrander/Mandrake wrote him.

Marcdachamp
09-24-2010, 10:57 AM
Of the big 7, no one, NO ONE, is lamer than Aquaman.

clark67211
09-24-2010, 10:58 AM
Didn't John Stewart make this mistake once?

adam_warlock_2099
09-24-2010, 10:58 AM
This thread should be set on fire.

:rofl:

adam_warlock_2099
09-24-2010, 10:59 AM
Didn't John Stewart make this mistake once?

What? Letting a entire planet blow up cause he went in half cocked and the bomb was yellow?

SighClops
09-24-2010, 10:59 AM
In other media like Smallville, Justice League (Unlimited), and New Frontier, I thought he was pretty cool.

In the comics, however, my only exposure to him was as Bloodwynd. So based on that... pretty fucking lame.

But if normal John Jones is anything like he was in those shows, then I'm sure he has to be at least halfway decent.

Slewo.O
09-24-2010, 11:00 AM
Sure there are a lot of lame characters out there but most of them appear a couple times and go back into the abyss never to be seen from again. In terms of characters that have survived the test of time, is he the lamest character in comics?

Poll forthcoming

Are you asking for an ass-kicking? :no:

Spidey616
09-24-2010, 11:01 AM
Lamer than this? ;)

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/welshbluemeanie/Aquaman.jpg

clark67211
09-24-2010, 11:02 AM
What? Letting a entire planet blow up cause he went in half cocked and the bomb was yellow?

Yeah, but right before that he shot MM into space because he didn't think he needed his help.

Roger
09-24-2010, 11:02 AM
epic fail!!!!!

adam_warlock_2099
09-24-2010, 11:03 AM
Yeah, but right before that he shot MM into space because he didn't think he needed his help.

Oh yeah he put him in a protective bubble and went in on his own yeah. I see what you're saying now.

Marcdachamp
09-24-2010, 11:04 AM
Lamer than this? ;)

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/welshbluemeanie/Aquaman.jpg

:rofl:

:thumb:

Pat Loika
09-24-2010, 11:05 AM
Not lame. At all.

AndrewG
09-24-2010, 11:06 AM
Are you asking for an ass-kicking? :no:

If John Jonnnzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz comes after me I'll flick my lighter. I'll be fine. He'll shit himself.

c. page
09-24-2010, 11:09 AM
Not lame in the slightest.

Dreg
09-24-2010, 11:14 AM
Were there any drastic changes to his personality over the years? I just remember, as a Marvel fan, picking up a DC book in the 90's and thinking "You know, the powers are probably a coincidence, but this guy is acting an awful lot like The Vision."

AndrewG
09-24-2010, 11:17 AM
Were there any drastic changes to his personality over the years? I just remember, as a Marvel fan, picking up a DC book in the 90's and thinking "You know, the powers are probably a coincidence, but this guy is acting an awful lot like The Vision."

He got lamer

Doug
09-24-2010, 11:20 AM
:nonono2:

Not nearly as lame as speedos on a Robin.

adam_warlock_2099
09-24-2010, 11:32 AM
He got lamer

So you're saying there was a time when he wasn't lame, or just not as lame as he is now?

AndrewG
09-24-2010, 11:38 AM
So you're saying there was a time when he wasn't lame, or just not as lame as he is now?

He began lame, but as time goes on he becomes progressively lame. The next DC Event could be where he becomes a super nova of lameness and he has to be stopped before the disease spreads throughout the DCU

GrandeMaestro Fünke
09-24-2010, 11:43 AM
Worst thread currently on front page.

jamestolliver
09-24-2010, 11:49 AM
Not lame. At all.

The Loika has spoken.

adam_warlock_2099
09-24-2010, 11:59 AM
He began lame, but as time goes on he becomes progressively lame. The next DC Event could be where he becomes a super nova of lameness and he has to be stopped before the disease spreads throughout the DCU

That's cosmic lame.

AndrewG
09-24-2010, 12:02 PM
Even lame in live action

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_aVOU8s2XTso/R6AckDJopVI/AAAAAAAAAo8/U59jxRDKX3Q/s400/jla-justice-league-america-tv-pilot-12.jpg

And fat

And lame

artimoff
09-24-2010, 12:02 PM
1000% less lame than Scarlet Spider.

adam_warlock_2099
09-24-2010, 12:05 PM
1000% less lame than Scarlet Spider.

Or the whole Clone Saga in general.

AndrewG
09-24-2010, 12:07 PM
1000% less lame than Scarlet Spider.


Or the whole Clone Saga in general.

I somehow knew this would turn into hate filled taunts

Jef UK
09-24-2010, 12:11 PM
I think he's one of DC's best characters, and I would love to write him. He's much more interesting than Superman.

Superior Kiai
09-24-2010, 12:15 PM
Of the big 7, no one, NO ONE, is lamer than Aquaman.

You take that back!!!!! :-x


Lamer than this? ;)

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/welshbluemeanie/Aquaman.jpg

You to!!!! :-x:-x

adam_warlock_2099
09-24-2010, 12:20 PM
I somehow knew this would turn into hate filled taunts

I wasn't really trying to personally taunt you, I really do think the Clone Saga was lame.

Ego Lives!
09-24-2010, 12:25 PM
I somehow knew this would turn into hate filled taunts

Now why would we do a thing like that?

Oh, what's this?
http://www.comicnoize.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/wildaction.jpg

Looks pretty lame to me. Perhaps we should include it.

The Human Target
09-24-2010, 12:29 PM
Aquaman gets cool points for being so lame hes kinda ironically cool.

Martian Manhunter does not.

AndrewG
09-24-2010, 12:29 PM
Now why would we do a thing like that?

Oh, what's this?
http://www.comicnoize.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/wildaction.jpg

Looks pretty lame to me. Perhaps we should include it.

Gasp!

adam_warlock_2099
09-24-2010, 12:54 PM
Now why would we do a thing like that?

Oh, what's this?
http://www.comicnoize.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/wildaction.jpg

Looks pretty lame to me. Perhaps we should include it.

Wow. That's uh . . . that's a guy with a hockey mask, guns, and lots of dogs. How did they make that lame?

Ego Lives!
09-24-2010, 01:02 PM
Wow. That's uh . . . that's a guy with a hockey mask, guns, and lots of dogs. How did they make that lame?

I actually know nothing about Wild Dog. I was just messing with Andrew.

Magnum V.I.
09-24-2010, 01:03 PM
Martian Manhunter IS the lamest character ever. All this defense of him and I have yet to see a well thought out list as to why he is cool. He has a fucking brother called T'omm J'onnzz for Christ sake!


Here's a picture of me at my favorite Martian Manhunter party.
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k165/camel100s/death_of_manhunter.jpg

adam_warlock_2099
09-24-2010, 01:06 PM
I actually know nothing about Wild Dog. I was just messing with Andrew.

I don't either. :D But by all rights, there are some weird shit in comics that work, but yet that looked lame.

sonnylarue
09-24-2010, 01:08 PM
Guys like Jon Ostrander wrote awesome MM stories.

Ego Lives!
09-24-2010, 01:09 PM
Guys like Jon Ostrander wrote awesome MM stories.

I still need to check that one out myself, I'm a big fan of the Gerard Jones American Secrets mini.

andrew french
09-24-2010, 01:17 PM
i love his original costume. it takes balls to wear that, or whatever the martian equivalent.

AndrewG
09-27-2010, 05:34 AM
Checked over the weekend. Yes, he is still lame

Slewo.O
09-27-2010, 05:35 AM
Checked over the weekend. Yes, he is still lame

Shut up Andrew, just shut up. I'll never forgive you for this! Ever!

jk. Maybe. :p

AndrewG
09-27-2010, 05:37 AM
Shut up Andrew, just shut up. I'll never forgive you for this! Ever!

jk. Maybe. :p

That's such a Martian Manhunter response

Slewo.O
09-27-2010, 05:39 AM
That's such a Martian Manhunter response

That is such an angry Black Lantern response.

Artie Pink
09-27-2010, 05:43 AM
He's pretty rad under the right writers. He rarely gets the good stuff, though.

But c'mon. At least he's not Metamorpho. :sick:

Slewo.O
09-27-2010, 05:51 AM
He's pretty rad under the right writers. He rarely gets the good stuff, though.

But c'mon. At least he's not Metamorpho. :sick:

True. Johns and Bedard are doing pretty good with him. At least he's not "That angry black guy with a ring" anymore.

Andreas
09-27-2010, 05:54 AM
Have you heard of the concept of reverse psychology, Andrew? ;)

Dreg
09-27-2010, 05:56 AM
Even lame in live action

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_aVOU8s2XTso/R6AckDJopVI/AAAAAAAAAo8/U59jxRDKX3Q/s400/jla-justice-league-america-tv-pilot-12.jpg

And fat

And lame

You know what's weird about that show? He turns into a woman, and complains that the underwear is riding up. But he's a shapeshifter; his appearance is only supposed to resemble a woman. This means that he was wearing actual ladies underwear the whole time.

frzamonkey
09-27-2010, 06:23 AM
if he were a villian with those powers, he'd be scary.

WhindamPryce
09-27-2010, 06:27 AM
if he were a villian with those powers, he'd be scary.

You mean like the White Martians? ;)




My 2 cents: MM was fantastic (like every other character) under Morrison. That is all.

Lord Jermaine Retail
09-27-2010, 06:34 AM
Martian Manhunter has the detective skills of Batman and the strength of Superman. Prior to the new costume/ Skrull chin era, he was one of the most trusted figures among the DC super-heroes. This is a formidable combination of attributes that DC has seldom realized.

To know the value (and by default understand how DC is failing to utilize the character effectively) read the Ostrander/ Mandrake Martian Manhunter run. There's no trade paperbacks for that series (hmm..) so you'll have to find issues which means that few will read it unless they already read it.

There's some fun stuff in the Giffen/ DeMatties Justice League. Fun, as opposed to outright silly which is what I fear people feel that series was.

DC has some of the most unique and fantastic characters ever created, so it's truly frustrating to me when they cannot harness that potential.

Lord Jermaine Retail
09-27-2010, 06:49 AM
Guys like Jon Ostrander wrote awesome MM stories.

It pains me that today's DC reader, thanks to DC themselves, has no knowledge of the very best stories of some of their characters. Marvel gives you Walt Simonson Thor, Bob Layton Iron Man, Claremont/ Byrne X-men, comics that are though of to be the definitive presentations of their products. Even if it is dated material or goes against whatever the current direction is, the material is still acknowledged and made available via tpb or premiere hardcover or omnibus edition.

My point is a) what are definitive runs on DC's premiere characters? and b) are these comics available for people to read?

John Ostrander Spectre? No.

Peter David Aquaman? No.

Ostrander Martian Manhunter? No.

Johns Hawkman? I don't think the trades are all available, but I could be wrong.

Is it possible that some of the characters have no definitive run? I just think this plugs into a larger DC Comics issue that has been pending for a very long time.

Patch
09-27-2010, 06:51 AM
He's a green-skinned Martian superhero. That much about him is great.
The over-abundance of nonsensical powers and the fire thing are not so great.

shakazulu
09-27-2010, 06:58 AM
No.

Hawkman is the lamest character.
Everytime I see his costume, with that helmet, I can't help but laugh :lol:
Imagine seeing Hawkman in the street. Talk about a Spinal Tap moment.

Patch
09-27-2010, 07:02 AM
No.

Hawkman is the lamest character.
Everytime I see his costume, with that helmet, I can't help but laugh :lol:
Imagine seeing Hawkman in the street. Talk about a Spinal Tap moment.

Hawkman generally ranks as a favorite among artists--- whatsamattayou?!

joeAR
09-27-2010, 07:04 AM
I loved him during Joe Kelly's JLA run.

Andreas
09-27-2010, 07:05 AM
Talking about lame... What about Red Tornado? The guy has a ventilator at his hip. Imagine Aquaman up in the JLA Watchtower. "Dude, I forgot my hairdryer, would you mind...?"

Doug
09-27-2010, 07:07 AM
Talking about lame... What about Red Tornado? The guy has a ventilator at his hip. Imagine Aquaman up in the JLA Watchtower. "Dude, I forgot my hairdryer, would you mind...?"

Outrageous!

The Hodag
09-27-2010, 07:39 AM
No.

Hawkman is the lamest character.
Everytime I see his costume, with that helmet, I can't help but laugh :lol:
Imagine seeing Hawkman in the street. Talk about a Spinal Tap moment.

I usually figure people who do the "I'd laugh if I saw such-and-such superhero on the street" thing don't really like superheroes. They like...I dunno, paramilitary metahuman warriors or some shit.

And Hawkman's got one of the great costume designs.

capntightpants
09-27-2010, 08:08 AM
It pains me that today's DC reader, thanks to DC themselves, has no knowledge of the very best stories of some of their characters. Marvel gives you Walt Simonson Thor, Bob Layton Iron Man, Claremont/ Byrne X-men, comics that are though of to be the definitive presentations of their products. Even if it is dated material or goes against whatever the current direction is, the material is still acknowledged and made available via tpb or premiere hardcover or omnibus edition.

My point is a) what are definitive runs on DC's premiere characters? and b) are these comics available for people to read?

John Ostrander Spectre? No.

Peter David Aquaman? No.

Ostrander Martian Manhunter? No.

Johns Hawkman? I don't think the trades are all available, but I could be wrong.

Is it possible that some of the characters have no definitive run? I just think this plugs into a larger DC Comics issue that has been pending for a very long time.

I've said this before, but DC has a horrible track record for collections in general. Their collections of newer material seem to take longer to be released than Marvel's, and their paperback versions take a full year after the HC to be released. And much of the collections are not numbered, so collecting them in the correct order is a difficult task. It seems to me that DC doesn't put much faith in their collections, except for the big big stories that get Absolute editions and whatnot.

Brother Power the Gong
09-27-2010, 08:14 AM
My point is a) what are definitive runs on DC's premiere characters? and b) are these comics available for people to read?

John Ostrander Spectre? No.



But there is a Fleisher-Aparo trade of Wrath of the Spectre available, which is pretty damn awesome.

(I haven't read Ostrander's run, except for a few issues, so I can't speak to definitive).

EDIT: Looks like Wrath of the Spectre is now out of print.

Superior Kiai
09-27-2010, 08:23 AM
This thread is a shame and it should be killed with fire.

Fire I said!!!! :-x

Lord Jermaine Retail
09-27-2010, 08:25 AM
But there is a Fleisher-Aparo trade of Wrath of the Spectre available, which is pretty damn awesome.

(I haven't read Ostrander's run, except for a few issues, so I can't speak to definitive).

EDIT: Looks like Wrath of the Spectre is now out of print.

Exactly my point.

And if you come across sequential Ostrander/ Mandrake Spectres at a con or something, pick them up and thank me later.

Brother Power the Gong
09-27-2010, 08:28 AM
Exactly my point.

And if you come across sequential Ostrander/ Mandrake Spectres at a con or something, pick them up and thank me later.

Will do.

Also, JLI Vol. 5 is only being offered as a TPB, and not an HC? What a bunch of bullshit.

JABSEN
09-27-2010, 08:40 AM
I'm probably not the first one to say it but nowhere near as lame as Ben Reilly.

The Hodag
09-27-2010, 08:43 AM
I'm probably not the first one to say it but nowhere near as lame as Ben Reilly.

:rofl:

Brother Power the Gong
09-27-2010, 08:43 AM
I'm probably not the first one to say it but nowhere near as lame as Ben Reilly.

:lol:

Lord Jermaine Retail
09-27-2010, 08:51 AM
Will do.

Also, JLI Vol. 5 is only being offered as a TPB, and not an HC? What a bunch of bullshit.

The JLI volumes are selling well here. Because DC put characters like Booster and Max Lord in higher profile positions of the shelves and people want to know more about them. Marvel does a great job of creating support trades to back up what the current material is. But I feel like DC puts characters like Max Lord out there and expects the reader to feel an impact that isn't clearly conveyed through the new content. People want to know who Max Lord is.

And years ago when OMAC Project had just happened, I asked the final word on DC trades if we could get some JLI trades back on the shelves (specifically volume #2 which was called The Secret Gospel of Maxwell Lord), I was told that "that's what the internet is for" and fans could look him up there. I never forgot that and it forever changed the way I look at DC and how they do what they do.

Granted there's plenty of good things going on like the Great Darkness saga returning as a hardcover (although it should have been a softcover and should have been available before/ during Final Crisis). With Blitz still being out of print (no Johns material on a signature character, let alone something in the middle of his available run in trade, should be out of print) there's still a long way to go. And it will truly be a great day when DC gets there.

ThisSpaceForRent
09-27-2010, 08:54 AM
And years ago when OMAC Project had just happened, I asked the final word on DC trades if we could get some JLI trades back on the shelves (specifically volume #2 which was called The Secret Gospel of Maxwell Lord), I was told that "that's what the internet is for" and fans could look him up there. I never forgot that and it forever changed the way I look at DC and how they do what they do.


That doesn't sound surprising in the least. I had a similar reaction when asking Dan Didio a couple questions at SDCC in a small meet & greet. He was very nice, but he doesn't give the impression there's ANYONE at DC that has a view of the picture.

Brother Power the Gong
09-27-2010, 09:01 AM
The JLI volumes are selling well here. Because DC put characters like Booster and Max Lord in higher profile positions of the shelves and people want to know more about them. Marvel does a great job of creating support trades to back up what the current material is. But I feel like DC puts characters like Max Lord out there and expects the reader to feel an impact that isn't clearly conveyed through the new content. People want to know who Max Lord is.

And years ago when OMAC Project had just happened, I asked the final word on DC trades if we could get some JLI trades back on the shelves (specifically volume #2 which was called The Secret Gospel of Maxwell Lord), I was told that "that's what the internet is for" and fans could look him up there. I never forgot that and it forever changed the way I look at DC and how they do what they do.

Granted there's plenty of good things going on like the Great Darkness saga returning as a hardcover (although it should have been a softcover and should have been available before/ during Final Crisis). With Blitz still being out of print (no Johns material on a signature character, let alone something in the middle of his available run in trade, should be out of print) there's still a long way to go. And it will truly be a great day when DC gets there.

Yeah, I piss and moan about DC's scheduling, but after buying four JLI volumes in HC, seeing that Vol. 5 and 6 are TPB-only means DC isn't getting my money for them. What a shit move.

Marcdachamp
09-27-2010, 09:24 AM
Even lame in live action

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_aVOU8s2XTso/R6AckDJopVI/AAAAAAAAAo8/U59jxRDKX3Q/s400/jla-justice-league-america-tv-pilot-12.jpg

And fat

And lame

Were any of the members of the League NOT fat? Yeesh.

Guess all those friggin' Oreos finally got to him.

Lord Jermaine Retail
09-27-2010, 09:33 AM
That doesn't sound surprising in the least. I had a similar reaction when asking Dan Didio a couple questions at SDCC in a small meet & greet. He was very nice, but he doesn't give the impression there's ANYONE at DC that has a view of the picture.

I know that all this appears to be off topic, but I believe that the root of the topic is still in play. Is one of DC's oldest super-heroes, one who is a contemporary of the Barry Allen Flash and a Justice League staple, not good?

If he is in fact not a good character, where does that sentiment come from? If he is a good character, how can people taking in current material arrive at the conclusion that he is not?

I'm of two minds on all this DC restructuring. On the one hand, it bothers me that people are being displaced. People who may have been doing their very best with the tools they were given. And on the other hand, a change is needed in order to make the DC brand (the home and source of some of the best known fictional characters world wide) the powerhouse that it should be, then this may be what it takes. I feel l like the true critical eye should have fallen upon marketing first, not any creators or editors.

Marcdachamp
09-27-2010, 09:47 AM
I know that all this appears to be off topic, but I believe that the root of the topic is still in play. Is one of DC's oldest super-heroes, one who is a contemporary of the Barry Allen Flash and a Justice League staple, not good?

If he is in fact not a good character, where does that sentiment come from? If he is a good character, how can people taking in current material arrive at the conclusion that he is not?

I'm of two minds on all this DC restructuring. On the one hand, it bothers me that people are being displaced. People who may have been doing their very best with the tools they were given. And on the other hand, a change is needed in order to make the DC brand (the home and source of some of the best known fictional characters world wide) the powerhouse that it should be, then this may be what it takes. I feel l like the true critical eye should have fallen upon marketing first, not any creators or editors.

I think the problem, LJR, is that the constant Crisis stories have really done a number on some of DC's better stories. Look at JLA: Year One. That was a great series! It won't be collected ever again because it no longer "counts." I can't imagine how frustrating that must be for some writers.

The Hodag
09-27-2010, 09:54 AM
If he is in fact not a good character, where does that sentiment come from? If he is a good character, how can people taking in current material arrive at the conclusion that he is not?

I haven't read the whole thread - is there a significant percentage of people who aren't Andrew who don't like Martian Manhunter?

In the ten years I've managed a shop I really can't recall a single time I've heard someone gripe about the Martian Manhunter. He's not an A-lister, but that's kind of part of his charm. He's tends to be a father figure/mentor type in the background - more Giles than Buffy/Xander/Willow.

Lord Jermaine Retail
09-27-2010, 09:59 AM
I think the problem, LJR, is that the constant Crisis stories have really done a number on some of DC's better stories. Look at JLA: Year One. That was a great series! It won't be collected ever again because it no longer "counts." I can't imagine how frustrating that must be for some writers.

But there's a double standard on that because a lot of reprinted content doesn't count. Saga of the Super-sons doesn't count as much as something can possibly not count, but a) there's a market for it among people who don't read anything current and b) they're neat stories. So I don't know what the rules are as far as contradictory stories.

I encouraged DC fans to pick up series like Superman Secret Origin and DCU Legacies (in addition to them being good stories) to get awareness of what the new post-Infinite Crisis history is, what happened, and how.

Lord Jermaine Retail
09-27-2010, 10:00 AM
I haven't read the whole thread - is there a significant percentage of people who aren't Andrew who don't like Martian Manhunter?

In the ten years I've managed a shop I really can't recall a single time I've heard someone gripe about the Martian Manhunter. He's not an A-lister, but that's kind of part of his charm. He's tends to be a father figure/mentor type in the background - more Giles than Buffy/Xander/Willow.

I guess it's that Andrew is a pretty staunch supporter of this era of DC so I began to wonder how it could be that someone reading current DC could not see the value of Martian Manhunter. And if not, why would that be.

Patch
09-27-2010, 10:04 AM
Anyone who measures stories by "count" and doesn't "count" should have been strangled in his crib.

The Hodag
09-27-2010, 10:09 AM
I think the problem, LJR, is that the constant Crisis stories have really done a number on some of DC's better stories. Look at JLA: Year One. That was a great series! It won't be collected ever again because it no longer "counts." I can't imagine how frustrating that must be for some writers.

I do agree on this point. DC needs to never reboot again and learn to live with what its writers do or rein them in so they don't do the really stupid shit.

On the retail level, there's an interesting phenomenon I've noticed though: it's both the great weakness and the great strength of DC characters that they're so open to reinterpretation. It's a weakness because their characters don't have the immediate depth and relatability of Marvel heroes. It's a strength because it means if a reader dislikes one Batman story, he only needs to try a different series or writer and he might find a take on Batman he digs.

I notice every time a new series launches with one of DC's icons, the enthusiasm level of the readership is very high. Weirdly high. People are dying for a run on Flash or Hawkman or even Aquaman that'll become the defining one for them. Plenty of times they end up disappointed and we see sales trail off after the first few issues, but...they're always poised for the next one. Sometimes they even get it - Blackest Night, for instance.

But it's reliant on the constant promise of reinterpretation or at least new directions. Marvel does that, too, but DC has a certain advantage in having more mutable personalities for its big name characters.

The Hodag
09-27-2010, 10:15 AM
Anyone who measures stories by "count" and doesn't "count" should have been strangled in his crib.

That's the biz right now, to some degree. Oh, people still dig New Frontier and Dark Knight and even buy The Great Darkness Saga on occasion, but the event focus has really lead to a readership who wants a sense of a shared universe. The consequence of stories feels muted if they know that what happens in one run might be randomly discarded in another.

And if you think about the cousin to superhero comics - serialized genre TV - it's more understandable. If one week on Lost they'd suddenly dropped all the backstory about Locke's injured legs as having been a dream, fans would've lost their shit - they'd become invested in that story.

The Hodag
09-27-2010, 10:17 AM
I guess it's that Andrew is a pretty staunch supporter of this era of DC so I began to wonder how it could be that someone reading current DC could not see the value of Martian Manhunter. And if not, why would that be.

I'm gonna guess it's anecdotal. Everyone's got their quirks.

Now Sentry hatred...that was a legit phenomenon. And my customers were getting pretty irked about Red Hulk, too. Loved him at first when it was all mysteries and the promise of stories to come, turned on him when his obnoxiousness began to override everything else about him and the mystery dragged on.

Patch
09-27-2010, 10:33 AM
That's the biz right now, to some degree. Oh, people still dig New Frontier and Dark Knight and even buy The Great Darkness Saga on occasion, but the event focus has really lead to a readership who wants a sense of a shared universe. The consequence of stories feels muted if they know that what happens in one run might be randomly discarded in another.

And if you think about the cousin to superhero comics - serialized genre TV - it's more understandable. If one week on Lost they'd suddenly dropped all the backstory about Locke's injured legs as having been a dream, fans would've lost their shit - they'd become invested in that story.

I know why it's done.
But it still blows chunks.

artimoff
09-27-2010, 10:39 AM
I'm probably not the first one to say it but nowhere near as lame as Ben Reilly.

It may have been mentioned before.;)


1000% less lame than Scarlet Spider.


Or the whole Clone Saga in general.


I somehow knew this would turn into hate filled taunts


I wasn't really trying to personally taunt you, I really do think the Clone Saga was lame.

Marcdachamp
09-27-2010, 10:41 AM
Anyone who measures stories by "count" and doesn't "count" should have been strangled in his crib.

The point, sir, is that stories that often "don't count" often don't get reprinted, making them more difficult for people to get ahold of.

At the end of the day, I think the issue is too much looking back instead of looking forward.

Lord Jermaine Retail
09-27-2010, 10:43 AM
Anyone who measures stories by "count" and doesn't "count" should have been strangled in his crib.

I think that whether that vocalize it or not, every fan (well say a fan of an ongoing universe) likes to know that the story they enjoyed was important, is in play, and is thought of.

In my opinion, as the reader of the story, I have the power to decide what did and didn't count. If a story comes out and I didn't like it, then I don't think about it and I don't talk about it unless someone else brings it up. It's out of my personal continuity and I think that many of us do it this way without thinking about it. And unless proven otherwise in some kind of impossible to ignore and in my face constantly way, a story that I liked is still active even when it's not. And even then, I tend to still count it.

I think that something being active or not should not impact the possibility of it having a trade paperback or not though. Even if the concept doesn't "count" there are buyers for it that are not even aware of the concept of something not counting. They want it because they like it or there is nostalgia involved.

artimoff
09-27-2010, 10:49 AM
Anyone who measures stories by "count" and doesn't "count" should have been strangled in his crib.

Infanticide, Patch? :sad:


Also, you've never drawn a comic because all their fans died in the 50's & 60's, so Marvel & DC died out in the 70's. That's how many people care about comics that "count".

GelfXIII
09-27-2010, 10:54 AM
He is precisely THIS lame.

*holds fingers an undefined and indeterminate distance apart*


I trust that settles the matter.

Patch
09-27-2010, 10:55 AM
I shouldn't have said anything.



Actually, that should be my sig here.

AndrewG
09-27-2010, 10:58 AM
I'm gonna guess it's anecdotal. Everyone's got their quirks.

Now Sentry hatred...that was a legit phenomenon. And my customers were getting pretty irked about Red Hulk, too. Loved him at first when it was all mysteries and the promise of stories to come, turned on him when his obnoxiousness began to override everything else about him and the mystery dragged on.

Yeah. It was mainly a goof. I didn't think the thread would take a turn towards serious discussion :surrend:

I never cared for the character. He seemed like a less important/interesting version of Superman and never stood out to me like other members of the Justice League.

AndrewG
09-27-2010, 10:58 AM
It may have been mentioned before.;)

This thread has bitten me in the ass

Lord Jermaine Retail
09-27-2010, 11:00 AM
I do agree on this point. DC needs to never reboot again and learn to live with what its writers do or rein them in so they don't do the really stupid shit.

On the retail level, there's an interesting phenomenon I've noticed though: it's both the great weakness and the great strength of DC characters that they're so open to reinterpretation. It's a weakness because their characters don't have the immediate depth and relatability of Marvel heroes. It's a strength because it means if a reader dislikes one Batman story, he only needs to try a different series or writer and he might find a take on Batman he digs.

I notice every time a new series launches with one of DC's icons, the enthusiasm level of the readership is very high. Weirdly high. People are dying for a run on Flash or Hawkman or even Aquaman that'll become the defining one for them. Plenty of times they end up disappointed and we see sales trail off after the first few issues, but...they're always poised for the next one. Sometimes they even get it - Blackest Night, for instance.

But it's reliant on the constant promise of reinterpretation or at least new directions. Marvel does that, too, but DC has a certain advantage in having more mutable personalities for its big name characters.

People are so ready for something great (I know, I know great is subjective. To someone what we have right now is great), something definitive from DC. I'm ready to buy it from DC and I'm ready to sell it and customers are ready to buy it.

I asked for more Aquaman trades because they're putting the character out for what is essentially a whole new audience and was told that if he gets a series and it works out, then we might get something for him in trade. That's a bad cycle to be in and it shows no support for the viability of the character/ concept.

Doug
09-27-2010, 11:02 AM
Yeah. It was mainly a goof. I didn't think the thread would take a turn towards serious discussion :surrend:

I never cared for the character. He seemed like a less important/interesting version of Superman and never stood out to me like other members of the Justice League.


This thread has bitten me in the ass

That'll learn ya. :twisted:

J'onn rules!

Lord Jermaine Retail
09-27-2010, 11:03 AM
Yeah. It was mainly a goof. I didn't think the thread would take a turn towards serious discussion :surrend:

I never cared for the character. He seemed like a less important/interesting version of Superman and never stood out to me like other members of the Justice League.

I didn't think you were being 100% serious of course, but at the same time I did get a hint that you really didn't see much use for the character so I came out the way that I did.

Justice League unlimited showed us a very pure version of Martian Manhunter than need not be an anomaly.

artimoff
09-27-2010, 11:06 AM
This thread has bitten me in the ass

Think of how many people see Ben Riley.

He's a clone who Marvel threw away like an old newspaper.

He was in charge of the Spider books for about 9 months before Marvel almost went bankrupt partly because their Spider book were selling 20% of what they were just 3 years before.

The cutoff spider hoodie.



The Martain Manhunter misses his family & his people & wears pirate boots like Captain America.

AndrewG
09-27-2010, 11:08 AM
I didn't think you were being 100% serious of course, but at the same time I did get a hint that you really didn't see much use for the character so I came out the way that I did.

Justice League unlimited showed us a very pure version of Martian Manhunter than need not be an anomaly.

Well to get into your initial questions a bit more since you asked, I did not read the Ostrander/Mandrake series that has been mentioned in the thread a few times already.

MM's resurgeance in Brightest Day hasn't exactly caused me to change my opinion about the character. I think his arc is the worst in the book. But yes if the odds are that he is going to get a new series out of this (rumor has it Brightest Day will spin out new ongoings for most of the cast) then there should be some sort of support structure via reprints/trades to let people catch up.

You won't catch me reading about el Lamo's adventures but even if I had to, aside from a few random JLA trades he was in where would one begin. They should be ready to go with this stuff.

Lord Jermaine Retail
09-27-2010, 11:16 AM
Well to get into your initial questions a bit more since you asked, I did not read the Ostrander/Mandrake series that has been mentioned in the thread a few times already.

MM's resurgeance in Brightest Day hasn't exactly caused me to change my opinion about the character. I think his arc is the worst in the book. But yes if the odds are that he is going to get a new series out of this (rumor has it Brightest Day will spin out new ongoings for most of the cast) then there should be some sort of support structure via reprints/trades to let people catch up.

You won't catch me reading about el Lamo's adventures but even if I had to, aside from a few random JLA trades he was in where would one begin. They should be ready to go with this stuff.

I feel like chances are that MM will be made available for Justice League stories again rather than his own ongoing, but stranger things have happened. Now Aquaman, for numerous reason, I think will get a new ongoing out of this as the most effort is being put into him getting some clarity of concept through Brightest Day.

The Dean
09-27-2010, 11:34 AM
I think MM's got a lot of potential. Like a lot of "alien" characters, like Data, Spock, or even ET, the "stranger in a strange land" theme has a lot of merit but we seem to have missed a lot of MM's growing pains.

I think that's why Cooke's version in New Frontier is one of my favorites because we got to see him grow up a bit.

Doug
09-27-2010, 11:38 AM
Well to get into your initial questions a bit more since you asked, I did not read the Ostrander/Mandrake series that has been mentioned in the thread a few times already.

MM's resurgeance in Brightest Day hasn't exactly caused me to change my opinion about the character. I think his arc is the worst in the book. But yes if the odds are that he is going to get a new series out of this (rumor has it Brightest Day will spin out new ongoings for most of the cast) then there should be some sort of support structure via reprints/trades to let people catch up.

You won't catch me reading about el Lamo's adventures but even if I had to, aside from a few random JLA trades he was in where would one begin. They should be ready to go with this stuff.

He' Martian, not Mexican. :nonono2:

BriRedfern
09-27-2010, 12:01 PM
I do think the seemingly constant DC reboots hurt their trade busibess. Look at how masterfully Marvek releases things like Kree/Skrull War in trades when an event like Secret Invasion comes out. DC really can't do that to the same effect because, for all intents and purposes, they have no older, in continuity, stories to release in tandem with big events.

Certainly I would be happy to read their older, out of continuity trades like JLA Year One or the Darkness Saga (I own both), but from a marketing standpoint they are starting out in the hole when compared to Marvel.

Big Poot!
09-27-2010, 12:03 PM
Not as lame as Batman, but lame.

RickLM
09-27-2010, 06:08 PM
DC has too many lame characters like Shazam, so its hard to give the title to MM without thinking through the depths of the lameness, but it is correct to include him on the list.

John Drake
09-27-2010, 06:33 PM
He's pretty great.

Boris the Blade
09-27-2010, 06:50 PM
I like him as a character, even though with such amazing powers he gets his ass beat with too much regularity.

Greygor
09-28-2010, 03:14 AM
I remember him fondly from Justice League: The Comedy Years

dEnny!
09-28-2010, 06:01 PM
Sure there are a lot of lame characters out there but most of them appear a couple times and go back into the abyss never to be seen from again. In terms of characters that have survived the test of time, is he the lamest character in comics?


Poll forthcoming

When written well I really like this character.

I'd love an updated telling of his years as detective John Jones of Apex City...a gritty, noir story...that'd be awesome!

Natty P
09-28-2010, 06:31 PM
new poll:

how fucking gay is andrewg?

The Hodag
09-28-2010, 06:36 PM
When written well I really like this character.

I'd love an updated telling of his years as detective John Jones of Apex City...a gritty, noir story...that'd be awesome!

I'm sure it's come up in this thread, but I'm too lazy to read it all, so I'll just ask - have you ever read the miniseries Martian Manhunter: American Secrets? Was an awesome prestige mini from the late 80s or early 90s that was set in the 50s and incorporated all the big stuff from society and politics of the era: quiz shows, communist subversion, alien scares, MAD magazine, rockabilly, etc. And all framed in a creepy mystery story with lots of "John Jones" doing detective work. Great art by Eduardo Barreto, too!

dEnny!
09-28-2010, 06:40 PM
I'm sure it's come up in this thread, but I'm too lazy to read it all, so I'll just ask - have you ever read the miniseries Martian Manhunter: American Secrets? Was an awesome prestige mini from the late 80s or early 90s that was set in the 50s and incorporated all the big stuff from society and politics of the era: quiz shows, communist subversion, alien scares, MAD magazine, rockabilly, etc. And all framed in a creepy mystery story with lots of "John Jones" doing detective work. Great art by Eduardo Barreto, too!

I don't think I have...I'll go look for it at my LCS tomorrow.

THANKS!

I've dug Eduardo Barreto's work on those DC Prestige comics...the Batman Elseworlds and Lex Luthor immediately spring to mind.

MayorMitch100
09-28-2010, 06:45 PM
He's to similar to Superman for me. But he's alright.

The Hodag
09-28-2010, 06:55 PM
I don't think I have...I'll go look for it at my LCS tomorrow.

THANKS!

I've dug Eduardo Barreto's work on those DC Prestige comics...the Batman Elseworlds and Lex Luthor immediately spring to mind.

Coolness. I need to try and turn up my copies, too. My comics are in disarray right now, but I think I know where those are and I've been meaning to revisit the series for some time.

Here's a favorite image of mine from the series:

http://i56.tinypic.com/ml33t5.jpg

I think the colorist was Steve Oliff, too, the first guy to really get computer coloring right. He did Legends of the Dark Knight back then, and way back in the 80s, did the painted colors for X-Men: God Loves, Man Kills.

AndrewG
10-01-2010, 05:29 AM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Lt7UvMOveug/THPYelbrIQI/AAAAAAAAJtw/UmUl3CXPyOA/s1600/Detective310-800-pg20-J%27onnJ%27onnz.jpg


Martian Manhunter, afraid of squirrels. Lameo

Doug
10-01-2010, 05:43 AM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Lt7UvMOveug/THPYelbrIQI/AAAAAAAAJtw/UmUl3CXPyOA/s1600/Detective310-800-pg20-J%27onnJ%27onnz.jpg


Martian Manhunter, afraid of squirrels. Lameo

http://blog.newsarama.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10087/ScarletSpider.JPG

Ben Reilly, afraid of superhero fashion. Lameo

Greygor
10-01-2010, 05:44 AM
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/Martian%20Manhunter%204.jpg

Martian Manhunter, Fan of Laurel and Hardy. An Alien of Good taste

Also has the coolest Hero Clix

http://wizkidsgames.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Martian-Manhunter-290x300.jpg

AndrewG
10-01-2010, 05:49 AM
http://blog.newsarama.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10087/ScarletSpider.JPG

Ben Reilly, afraid of superhero fashion. Lameo

:cry:

Doug
10-01-2010, 05:49 AM
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/Martian%20Manhunter%204.jpg

Martian Manhunter, Fan of Laurel and Hardy. An Alien of Good taste

How can regular rope hold Metamorpho?

AndrewG
10-01-2010, 05:49 AM
http://wizkidsgames.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Martian-Manhunter-290x300.jpg

It looks like he's just taken the dump of all dumps and is about to wipe

Doug
10-01-2010, 05:50 AM
It looks like he's just taken the dump of all dumps and is about to wipe

Why do you think Ted has that look on his face?

Greygor
10-01-2010, 05:51 AM
How can regular rope hold a unconscious Metamorpho?

fixed that for you

A: easily, until he wakes up

adam_warlock_2099
10-01-2010, 05:51 AM
http://blog.newsarama.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10087/ScarletSpider.JPG

Ben Reilly, afraid of superhero fashion. Lameo

I would say in the context of the 90's it was the norm. :D

Greygor
10-01-2010, 05:51 AM
It looks like he's just taken the dump of all dumps and is about to wipe

You dump Oreos?

Brother Power the Gong
10-01-2010, 05:52 AM
It looks like he's just taken the dump of all dumps and is about to wipe using copies of Clone Saga comics

Fixed.

AndrewG
10-01-2010, 05:54 AM
Fixed.

If you look closer he's also eating his own poop!

AndrewG
10-01-2010, 05:57 AM
I consider it a major victory that 14% of the board considers that green ass to be somewhat lame

Greygor
10-04-2010, 12:48 AM
14%, that's only a win in a Bush election