Bad Changes in a Character

[Dream]

Through the years we've gotten a lot of changes in characters, some good some not. I feel in the 00's there's been a lot of bad ones though. Which ones did you dislike?

For example, I absolutely loathe what Tim Drake has turned into. He's practically Bruce now. I miss the kid when he wasn't a hyper badass at everything, wasn't paranoid, and knew he wasn't the greatest fighter so he relied on his smarts. Now he's basically Bruce-lite, kicking Ra's Al Ghul's ass when Bruce was having trouble with muggers. Can't stand to read the character anymore.

Another is Geoff John's horrible Barry Allen retcon. I LOVED the fact that Barry wasn't motivated by grief or revenge, he became a cop and hero just because he was a genuinely good guy. Then Geoff went and Batmaned him. Heroes don't need grief to be heroes.

[leafinsectman]

Shadowland could be bad for Daredevil (but could be awesome for the readers if done right).

[Dream]

Shadowland could be bad for Daredevil (but could be awesome for the readers if done right).

Matt Murdock's life is pretty much hell, I don't really blame for going villain. But It's been shown he's being controlled.

[leafinsectman]

Matt Murdock's life is pretty much hell, I don't really blame for going villain. But It's been shown he's being controlled.

Yeah I was hoping that wasn't the case :(

[Dream]

Yeah I was hoping that wasn't the case :(

Me either. A bit lame. I would have preferred him have actually lost it.

[leafinsectman]

Me either. A bit lame. I would have preferred him have actually lost it.

Same here. I wonder if there's still hope.

[Dream]

Same here. I wonder if there's still hope.

Well according to SDCC, there may be a new Man Without Fear on the horizon. Falcon, Kraven, Gambit, and T'Challa were shown.

[leafinsectman]

Well according to SDCC, there may be a new Man Without Fear on the horizon. Falcon, Kraven, Gambit, and T'Challa were shown.

I've seen the ads for
Gambit and Nova... wtf?

[Teal_Lantern]

Man, this Shadowland sounds sucky, and I actually liked the buildup.

[leafinsectman]

By the way, I haven't been following Batman in a while but I'm guessing (or hoping) Tim Drake returns to his old self once Bruce is back.

[Shurato2099]

Through the years we've gotten a lot of changes in characters, some good some not. I feel in the 00's there's been a lot of bad ones though. Which ones did you dislike?

For example, I absolutely loathe what Tim Drake has turned into. He's practically Bruce now. I miss the kid when he wasn't a hyper badass at everything, wasn't paranoid, and knew he wasn't the greatest fighter so he relied on his smarts. Now he's basically Bruce-lite, kicking Ra's Al Ghul's ass when Bruce was having trouble with muggers. Can't stand to read the character anymore.

Another is Geoff John's horrible Barry Allen retcon. I LOVED the fact that Barry wasn't motivated by grief or revenge, he became a cop and hero just because he was a genuinely good guy. Then Geoff went and Batmaned him. Heroes don't need grief to be heroes.

Fortunately, while it does seem to have been a motivation for Barry going into forensics, it doesn't seem to have become his driving motive for becoming the Flash. Barry is no more grim or angsty than I remember from his pre-Crisis days. So that change I can live with.

There were other changes, though, that just made a mess of characters.

Such as changing Wonder Woman's origins and totally mucking up Donna Troy's backstory in the process, -requiring- the 'Who is Donna Troy' arc to make some belabored sense out of her.

Or the scene in the last issue of Team Titans that showed Duela Dent as a delusional nut in an asylum, setting the pattern for every appearance that followed. Nobody ever went past the 'lunatic' label when, pre-Crisis, this was a character that as good as any of the Bat-kids.

Or making Tony Stark out to be the bad guy in Civil War. Admittedly everybody who appeared in that 'event' got a pre-frontal lobotomy as soon as they checked in, but Tony turned on people who had been friends of his for years way too quickly.

[Teal_Lantern]

I would also list Cassandra Cain.

Also, Professor Xavier becoming a douchebag, I like him as a good guy!

[DarkKnightJared]

For example, I absolutely loathe what Tim Drake has turned into. He's practically Bruce now. I miss the kid when he wasn't a hyper badass at everything, wasn't paranoid, and knew he wasn't the greatest fighter so he relied on his smarts. Now he's basically Bruce-lite, kicking Ra's Al Ghul's ass when Bruce was having trouble with muggers. Can't stand to read the character anymore.

I'd argue that he hasn't been paranoid or Bruce-like since at least issue #9 or #10 of Red Robin.

[Dream]

Also, Professor Xavier becoming a douchebag, I like him as a good guy!

Professor X as well. I don't know why writers always wanted to make him evil.


I'd argue that he hasn't been paranoid or Bruce-like since at least issue #9 or #10 of Red Robin.

He has files on all his friends. Like Bruce did in Tower of Babel..

[Thequeerjock]

Professor X as well. I don't know why writers always wanted to make him evil.



He has files on all his friends. Like Bruce did in Tower of Babel..
Maybe I read it wrong, but it didn't seem like he had them on his friends. He had them for some of his fellow teen heroes (Supergirl and Shazam I think), but I didn't see Conner or any of the other Titans.

I actually really like the revamped Wonder Woman so far.

Now I do take issue with the way Osiris and Tattooed Man are currently being written. TM basically redeemed himself in Final Crisis, and Osiris was devoted to being a hero. He even got a heroic "death" in Blackest Night. Putting them on a team lead by Deathstroke and having them help murder another superhero seems like a step in the wrong direction.

[t.c.johnson]

I would also list Cassandra Cain.

Also, Professor Xavier becoming a douchebag, I like him as a good guy!

Did you read the Mike Carey series with Xavier? Good stuff!

[Teal_Lantern]

Did you read the Mike Carey series with Xavier? Good stuff!

I read the Juggernaut issue and loved it. I couldn't afford to follow the series, but man, that was the kind of Xavier that I like. Overall, a good guy, but with a little bit of a dark side, not the modern one who seems to be willing to hurt anyone to do anything.

[K-DoG7p7]

By the way, I haven't been following Batman in a while but I'm guessing (or hoping) Tim Drake returns to his old self once Bruce is back.

Tim has gone back to being Tim again after people realized he was right about Bruce
those files he had was normal files, Damian was just being an insecure little brat


Bad changed in a character


Do i have to say "Rise of Arsenal" ?

[t.c.johnson]

I read the Juggernaut issue and loved it. I couldn't afford to follow the series, but man, that was the kind of Xavier that I like. Overall, a good guy, but with a little bit of a dark side, not the modern one who seems to be willing to hurt anyone to do anything.

If you get a chance I highly recommend it.

The premise was that at the end of the last crossover, Xavier was shot in the head. Exodus heals Xavier in the hopes that Xavier will lead the Accolytes. He is able to restore most (but not all) of Xavier's memories so that Xavier remebers his actions but not the emotions behind the actions. When he looks back on his life without the emotions, he basically says, "Wow, I was a dick!" and goes on a quest to fix some of his greatest errors.

If you can, highly recommend hunting down the trades.

[Teal_Lantern]

If you get a chance I highly recommend it.

The premise was that at the end of the last crossover, Xavier was shot in the head. Exodus heals Xavier in the hopes that Xavier will lead the Accolytes. He is able to restore most (but not all) of Xavier's memories so that Xavier remebers his actions but not the emotions behind the actions. When he looks back on his life without the emotions, he basically says, "Wow, I was a dick!" and goes on a quest to fix some of his greatest errors.

If you can, highly recommend hunting down the trades.

I knew there was something about amnesia, but that sounds like a really interesting spin on things. I'm definitely get the trades sometime.

[Corrina]

Also, Professor Xavier becoming a douchebag, I like him as a good guy!

Me too. I miss good guy Xavier.

Arsenal would be the most obvious for "bad changes in a character" right now. Ugh.

[The Hunter]

Cyclops
Cassandra Cain
and a good chunk of heroes in the Civil War*Stark,Mr. Fantasic and Speedball got the worst I think*

[Teal_Lantern]

Also, the amazons going from an advanced paradise to a warrior society.

[t.c.johnson]

Did anybody mention Black Canary marrying Green Arrow?

[Dream]

Now I do take issue with the way Osiris and Tattooed Man are currently being written. TM basically redeemed himself in Final Crisis, and Osiris was devoted to being a hero. He even got a heroic "death" in Blackest Night. Putting them on a team lead by Deathstroke and having them help murder another superhero seems like a step in the wrong direction.

Ugh, I hate that one as well. I really loathe Deathstroke.


Did anybody mention Black Canary marrying Green Arrow?

Ollie just by himself seems to have gotten more and more douchey.

[Dream]

Another good one is Batman. I liked O'Neil's globe-trotting love god, after Miller wrote him in DKR every one seemed intent on writing him like a jerk. Thank god that seems to have ended.

[Corrina]

Ugh, I hate that one as well. I really loathe Deathstroke.


Deathstroke is another one for the "bad changes" thing.

Now, he's just and out and out villain but at one time, especially when he had his own title, he was far closer to anti-hero and a lot more nuanced.

It's all "all evil, all the time" Slade now.

[Dream]

Deathstroke is another one for the "bad changes" thing.

Now, he's just and out and out villain but at one time, especially when he had his own title, he was far closer to anti-hero and a lot more nuanced.

It's all "all evil, all the time" Slade now.

Yeah, now I can't stand him at all.

[Dream]

Just remembered one more- Nico Minoru of the Runaways. What is it with writers where they feel the "hot" girl has to hook up with everyone? Nico saw Chase as a brother, and he is still clearly not over Gert.

[Duxdoom]

Ryan Choi. He's so lazy nowadays.

[capntightpants]

Cyclops
Cassandra Cain
and a good chunk of heroes in the Civil War*Stark,Mr. Fantasic and Speedball got the worst I think*

Please expand. I'd like to know more.

[danlomb]

Prinicipal Skinner not really being Principal Skinner.

What the fuck were they thinking? Ugh.

[Teal_Lantern]

Prinicipal Skinner not really being Principal Skinner.

What the fuck were they thinking? Ugh.

God that was the worst. Also, Flanders going from a nice religious guy to an obsessive bigot, like, really, we had Rev. Lovejoy for that role, we didn't need two.

And Lisa going from a smart little girl, to a smart woman in a little girl's body.

[Thequeerjock]

God that was the worst. Also, Flanders going from a nice religious guy to an obsessive bigot, like, really, we had Rev. Lovejoy for that role, we didn't need two.

And Lisa going from a smart little girl, to a smart woman in a little girl's body.

Yeah. Looking at the original episodes compared to the last five years or so, Lisa has gotten really bad.

She used to be a dorky and kind little girl who you felt sorry for because her intelligence drove away any friends. Now she acts like a smug intellectual who constantly has to drive home how stupid everyone around her is. You're like "Ya know what? I'm GLAD you don't have any friends!"

[Teal_Lantern]

Yeah. Looking at the original episodes compared to the last five years or so, Lisa has gotten really bad.

She used to be a dorky and kind little girl who you felt sorry for because her intelligence drove away any friends. Now she acts like a smug intellectual who constantly has to drive home how stupid everyone around her is. You're like "Ya know what? I'm GLAD you don't have any friends!"

Totally, they've also made Marge goofier so that Lisa can be the Smart one.

Although, I do enjoy Mr. Burns as an even more evil person.

[Thequeerjock]

Totally, they've also made Marge goofier so that Lisa can be the Smart one.

Although, I do enjoy Mr. Burns as an even more evil person.

Yeah, Burns works well in that regard because he was already such a catoonish bad guy. Taking it to the next level isn't much of a problem.

Also, it seems like they really have it in to Milhouse. It seems like he's become the "Meg Griffin" of the show.

[Teal_Lantern]

Yeah, Burns works well in that regard because he was already such a catoonish bad guy. Taking it to the next level isn't much of a problem.

Also, it seems like they really have it in to Milhouse. It seems like he's become the "Meg Griffin" of the show.

Also, didn't Kirk Van Houten used to be a pretty successful guy, decent job, etc.

Seriously, I tihnk the only characters who have stayed the same are Homer, Maggie, Lenny and Carl.

[Dream]

Lisa Simpson is soooo annoying. I'm not sure if she's supposed to be remotely likable.

[Teal_Lantern]

Lisa Simpson is soooo annoying. I'm not sure if she's supposed to be remotely likable.

She has to be, it seems her only purpose is to spout the writer's political views these days.

[Thequeerjock]

She has to be, it seems her only purpose is to spout the writer's political views these days.

That's another problem I had. It seems like a lot of the characters have become either sockpuppets or strawmen for different political and social views.

Aside from the obvious (Ned, who has been mentioned), Marge has been treated as the token conservative strawman of the family in the most recent seasons. Out of nowhere, they established that she's a homophobe and is firmly against gay marriage, and on at least one other occasion they had her show some xenophobic tendancies. I think she screamed "Go back to your own country!!!!" to the Count on Sesamee Street or something.

[Teal_Lantern]

That's another problem I had. It seems like a lot of the characters have become either sockpuppets or strawmen for different political and social views.

Aside from the obvious (Ned, who has been mentioned), Marge has been treated as the token conservative strawman of the family in the most recent seasons. Out of nowhere, they established that she's a homophobe and is firmly against gay marriage, and on at least one other occasion they had her show some xenophobic tendancies. I think she screamed "Go back to your own country!!!!" to the Count on Sesamee Street or something.

Yup, the gay marriage thing wasn't so bad since she changed her mind by the end of the episode but man, i t seems like they're just trying to imitate Family Guy, by making every character into a strawman or unlikeable douchebag. In the newer seasons, they seem to be trying to downplay but man, it got pretty extreme.

[The Funketeer]

D-Man used to be awesome in the old Thing and Captain America series and then some jerk went and made him hero to the homeless people and now all the other Avengers think he smells bad.

I'm serious by the way.

[Slewo.O]

D-Man used to be awesome in the old Thing and Captain America series and then some jerk went and made him hero to the homeless people and now all the other Avengers think he smells bad.

I'm serious by the way.

Was his Daredevil Wolverine Ripoff any better?

[Dream]

That's another problem I had. It seems like a lot of the characters have become either sockpuppets or strawmen for different political and social views.

Aside from the obvious (Ned, who has been mentioned), Marge has been treated as the token conservative strawman of the family in the most recent seasons. Out of nowhere, they established that she's a homophobe and is firmly against gay marriage, and on at least one other occasion they had her show some xenophobic tendancies. I think she screamed "Go back to your own country!!!!" to the Count on Sesamee Street or something.

It sometimes feels as if they're trying to emulate Family Guy or King of the Hill.

[Slewo.O]

Through the years we've gotten a lot of changes in characters, some good some not. I feel in the 00's there's been a lot of bad ones though. Which ones did you dislike?

For example, I absolutely loathe what Tim Drake has turned into. He's practically Bruce now. I miss the kid when he wasn't a hyper badass at everything, wasn't paranoid, and knew he wasn't the greatest fighter so he relied on his smarts. Now he's basically Bruce-lite, kicking Ra's Al Ghul's ass when Bruce was having trouble with muggers. Can't stand to read the character anymore.

Another is Geoff John's horrible Barry Allen retcon. I LOVED the fact that Barry wasn't motivated by grief or revenge, he became a cop and hero just because he was a genuinely good guy. Then Geoff went and Batmaned him. Heroes don't need grief to be heroes.
I dunno Tim becoming dour was a natural thing to react to the one guiding light he had left. And to be fair he's less like Bruce and more like himself again... And yeah I can't agree with the retcon of Barry being motivated by tragedy. Johns himself had Wally say in his penultimate Flash arc that "The Flash isn't about tragedy", so that's pretty damn ironic. :p

[Slewo.O]

Also, didn't Kirk Van Houten used to be a pretty successful guy, decent job, etc.

Seriously, I tihnk the only characters who have stayed the same are Homer, Maggie, Lenny and Carl.

Kirk Van Houten was NEVER successful. They established pretty early on that he was a loser.

[Teal_Lantern]

It sometimes feels as if they're trying to emulate Family Guy or King of the Hill.

Bingo, you're absolutely right that that's what they were trying to do. It's lessened lately, but they were trying to do that sort of random, offensive, ripped from the headline type of humour.

[Teal_Lantern]

Kirk Van Houten was NEVER successful. They established pretty early on that he was a loser.

I dunno, I remember him having a really awesome job and being relatively well paid.

[Slewo.O]

Bingo, you're absolutely right that that's what they were trying to do. It's lessened lately, but they were trying to do that sort of random, offensive, ripped from the headline type of humour.
The Simpsons have become a caricature of themselves... How ironic. Why does Groening keep associating himself with the show?

[Slewo.O]

I dunno, I remember him having a really awesome job and being relatively well paid.

Yeah... One that was given to him by his father-in-law and he ran into the ground personally. They established he didn't make any success his own.

[Teal_Lantern]

Yeah... One that was given to him by his father-in-law and he ran into the ground personally. They established he didn't make any success his own.

Yeah but they revealed that during and after the divorce story, where they had him become a total loser. Before that, it was just his job, I believe.

[Slewo.O]

Yeah but they revealed that during and after the divorce story, where they had him become a total loser. Before that, it was just his job, I believe.
Eh it was still a good character story arc.

[Dream]

Brian the dog from Family Guy used to be the intelligent person, but now it's as if he's drunk or ignorant most of the time.

[Teal_Lantern]

Eh it was still a good character story arc.

I didn't enjoy it as much, maybe I just felt way too sorry for him. That and I hated Lou Annee after that as her character was made into really aggressive and annoying.

And another bad change. The Joker going from a dangerous but playful criminal to a freaking terrorist who's killed like, a thousand people.

[Dream]

Ir kind of irks me when the Joker is portrayed as someone who mass murders constantly, but Batman doesn't have the stones to at least cripple him. That's the thing about DC heroes, they are practically as powerful as gods (like the Flash) yet still have trouble with guys like the Trickster should be no problem for them. It kind of makes them look ineffectual.

[Teal_Lantern]

Ir kind of irks me when the Joker is portrayed as someone who mass murders constantly, but Batman doesn't have the stones to at least cripple him. That's the thing about DC heroes, they are practically as powerful as gods (like the Flash) yet still have trouble with guys like the Trickster should be no problem for them. It kind of makes them look ineffectual.

Yeah, I would prefer if Joker at least got routinely stopped, not just arrested, but his plans were sabotaged and the innocents got saved.

[DarkKnightJared]

Another good one is Batman. I liked O'Neil's globe-trotting love god, after Miller wrote him in DKR every one seemed intent on writing him like a jerk. Thank god that seems to have ended.

I don't think Miller ever intended for that to really be the case. With Dark Knight Returns, Bruce was in a completely different situation then he was in other comics--this was a man who wasn't well-liked, both by the criminal underworld, or the other heroes that worked alongside him. When the heroes wore out their welcome to the rest of the world and Jason died, Bruce felt he had no choice but to retire. Ten years pass, and things get worse and worse. Isolated, idle, out of touch with the regular world, and semi-suicidal--it's a wonder he didn't act any worse.

Miller didn't screw up Batman--fanboys who didn't understand what he was trying to do and blindly emulated it screwed him up.

[blackreign]

Tim has gone back to being Tim again after people realized he was right about Bruce
those files he had was normal files, Damian was just being an insecure little brat


Bad changed in a character


Do i have to say "Rise of Arsenal" ?

Thank you! I agree 110% on that. Yeah..Let's just destroy Roy and everything that ever meant anything to him. What a load of bull****

[Thequeerjock]

Thank you! I agree 110% on that. Yeah..Let's just destroy Roy and everything that ever meant anything to him. What a load of bull****

It's crazy, because I got the sense that the whole Red Arrow phase wasn't all that well-liked, and it seems like Rise and Fall was Didio screaming "You want Arsenal back? Here's ya fuckin' Arsenal!"

[Dream]

Owen Mercer is another good one. Geoff ruined him just to bring back his daddy....