Question about Americans and the Internet

[zemo]

Hey! I recently thought to myself, that there are a lot of misunderstandings in the online world because most of the English-speaking part of it mainly consists of Americans (or so it seems to me).

There always seem to be distinct points in online discussions, no matter the topic, where a poster makes a specific comment, and most other posters (no matter whether they agree or disagree) seem to know what this is about, leaving me quite stumped. Or even worse, when I don't notice a discussion is developing into that direction.

So, for the question: Is there a source on the Internet that discusses this topic and can give hints on how to avoid this (short of simply digesting all of American culture :P)? I looked around myself and didn't find anything :(

[CutterMike]

Hey! I recently thought to myself, that there are a lot of misunderstandings in the online world because most of the English-speaking part of it mainly consists of Americans (or so it seems to me).

There always seem to be distinct points in online discussions, no matter the topic, where a poster makes a specific comment, and most other posters (no matter whether they agree or disagree) seem to know what this is about, leaving me quite stumped. Or even worse, when I don't notice a discussion is developing into that direction.

So, for the question: Is there a source on the Internet that discusses this topic and can give hints on how to avoid this (short of simply digesting all of American culture :P)? I looked around myself and didn't find anything :(Not sure where you're from, but is there a site that does what you're asking about for YOUR country; that covers every pop-cultural/political/historical/regional reference that might be commonplace and unremarkable to you but not to outsiders?

I suspect that, in any case like this, Google (and POSSIBLY Wikipedia) will be your best bet when you run into such a reference.

[zemo]

Not sure where you're from, but is there a site that does what you're asking about for YOUR country; that covers every pop-cultural/political/historical/regional reference that might be commonplace and unremarkable to you but not to outsiders?

I suspect that, in any case like this, Google (and POSSIBLY Wikipedia) will be your best bet when you run into such a reference.
That's actually a good idea, thanks :)

[Karen El]

Not sure where you're from, but is there a site that does what you're asking about for YOUR country; that covers every pop-cultural/political/historical/regional reference that might be commonplace and unremarkable to you but not to outsiders?


The problem is that the internet is dominated by Americans. Many of whom also assume that everyone else on the net is American. Thus you can get accused of not being patriotic for not supporting some policy of a country you've never set foot in.

[Reverend Smooth]

But note that most Americans will be as clueless about your culture as you are about theirs. It's cool just to ask if you don't know.

[Karen El]

But note that most Americans will be as clueless about your culture as you are about theirs. It's cool just to ask if you don't know.

Three months of watching the Rachel Maddow show convinces me that many Americans are clueless about their own culture, let alone anyone else's.

[Thequeerjock]

Three months of watching the Rachel Maddow show convinces me that many Americans are clueless about their own culture, let alone anyone else's.

Just the idiots. Despite Jerry Springer, not all Americans are a bunch of conservative, hateful yahoos. Particularly on YABS.

[Reverend Smooth]

Three months of watching the Rachel Maddow show convinces me that many Americans are clueless about their own culture, let alone anyone else's.

There are a lot of different cultures in America, given that it's such a huge and diverse place, so I'm not surprised.

[Dream]

Three months of watching the Rachel Maddow show convinces me that many Americans are clueless about their own culture, let alone anyone else's.

That's hardly fair to judge us on.

[zemo]

Well, my main problem is actually the racism thing. Some things about this simply baffle me, like black people being really REALLY aggressive about even the slightest perceived racial slur. And then I hear that there are people actually walking up to a black person in the USA only to touch their hair. It's just not my sphere of existence, I sometimes think.

Some time ago I seemingly upset someone by calling blacks "coloured", a term that is completely normal to use in Germany, where I'm from. Well, obviously the German equivalent.

It's things like this that make me unsure, because I am just not on the same page as a lot of other people. Not that I deny that there is racism in Europe, it's just a very different kind, I gather, so one can't really extrapolate.

Additionally, cultural insider jokes go way over my head. Here's a little factoid: GI Joe never was broadcasted in Germany. >_>

[Thequeerjock]

Well, my main problem is actually the racism thing. Some things about this simply baffle me, like black people being really REALLY aggressive about even the slightest perceived racial slur. And then I hear that there are people actually walking up to a black person in the USA only to touch their hair. It's just not my sphere of existence, I sometimes think.

Some time ago I seemingly upset someone by calling blacks "coloured", a term that is completely normal to use in Germany, where I'm from. Well, obviously the German equivalent.

It's things like this that make me unsure, because I am just not on the same page as a lot of other people. Not that I deny that there is racism in Europe, it's just a very different kind, I gather, so one can't really extrapolate.

Additionally, cultural insider jokes go way over my head. Here's a little factoid: GI Joe never was broadcasted in Germany. >_>

I was privy to several such incidents on CBR. One was pretty minor and basically involved a Brit asking why the tv show "Spooks" was renamed in the US (Spook is an oldschool racist term here). A crazy one was when a group of posters discussed Morrison's creation of Jezebel Jet, Bruce Wayne's black girlriend.

There are some negative connotations between American black women and the term Jezebel, which apparently wasn't made clear to a number of European posters who basically did nothing but go "Why are americans so obsessed with race?!"

[Dream]

Well, my main problem is actually the racism thing. Some things about this simply baffle me, like black people being really REALLY aggressive about even the slightest perceived racial slur. And then I hear that there are people actually walking up to a black person in the USA only to touch their hair. It's just not my sphere of existence, I sometimes think.

Some time ago I seemingly upset someone by calling blacks "coloured", a term that is completely normal to use in Germany, where I'm from. Well, obviously the German equivalent.

It's things like this that make me unsure, because I am just not on the same page as a lot of other people. Not that I deny that there is racism in Europe, it's just a very different kind, I gather, so one can't really extrapolate.

Additionally, cultural insider jokes go way over my head. Here's a little factoid: GI Joe never was broadcasted in Germany. >_>

Europeans generally have less people with darker skin. Calling someone "Coloured" is something that's frowned upon. I think with Europeans you guys just aren't used to seeing people with dark skin.

[Thequeerjock]

Europeans generally have less people with darker skin. Calling someone "Coloured" is something that's frowned upon. I think with Europeans you guys just aren't used to seeing people with dark skin.

I wouldn't go that far. France and Britain have sizable black populations, as well as a number of Arabs and even a decent amount of Asians in France's case.

[Corrina]

The racial situation is different in America because of the history of slavery and then horrific racial prejudice that included many acts of physical violence, including many murders, and lots of emotional violence.

We're only just starting to put the old hurts behind us. It takes time. it's only been a generation since Martin Luther King's "I Have a Dream" speech.

But it's why the topic is still so volatile here. For the German equivalent, imagine a lively and vibrant Jewish community still existing in Germany just a generation after the Holocaust--and that many, many Germans still harassed the Jewish citizens AND murdered them and thought they were lesser--and that this continued for nearly 100 years after the Holocaust before a civil rights movement started healing matters.

That's the scope of the racial problem here. The vast majority of us are working on it and things have improved considerably but..well, not even close to ideal.

[Dream]

I wouldn't go that far. France and Britain have sizable black populations, as well as a number of Arabs and even a decent amount of Asians in France's case.

Nothing compared to America's though, I suspect. I know there are some there, but I definitely don't think it's a huge number.

[Jason California]

Well, my main problem is actually the racism thing. Some things about this simply baffle me, like black people being really REALLY aggressive about even the slightest perceived racial slur. And then I hear that there are people actually walking up to a black person in the USA only to touch their hair. It's just not my sphere of existence, I sometimes think.

Some time ago I seemingly upset someone by calling blacks "coloured", a term that is completely normal to use in Germany, where I'm from. Well, obviously the German equivalent.

It's things like this that make me unsure, because I am just not on the same page as a lot of other people. Not that I deny that there is racism in Europe, it's just a very different kind, I gather, so one can't really extrapolate.

Additionally, cultural insider jokes go way over my head. Here's a little factoid: GI Joe never was broadcasted in Germany. >_>

Race issues vary widely in the US. People in Georgia are going to have much different takes on race relations than say someone in Washington (state, not DC). There are lots of different cultures in the US and we are from from a homogeneous people.

I use the term coloreds when talking about people not white. For the most part people don't take offense to it, and I personally would not care if they did. I am not using it pejorative way, just as a descriptor for people not white.

All you can do is come at it in an earnest manner. There are some people that are going to be sensitive about it no matter what you say unless you are inline with their beliefs. If you are not sure of where people are coming from ask so that you don't miss the context of the meaning.

Knowing is half the battle.

[Dream]

Race issues vary widely in the US. People in Georgia are going to have much different takes on race relations than say someone in Washington (state, not DC). There are lots of different cultures in the US and we are from from a homogeneous people.

I use the term coloreds when talking about people not white. For the most part people don't take offense to it, and I personally would not care if they did. I am not using it pejorative way, just as a descriptor for people not white.

All you can do is come at it in an earnest manner. There are some people that are going to be sensitive about it no matter what you say unless you are inline with their beliefs. If you are not sure of where people are coming from ask so that you don't miss the context of the meaning.

Knowing is half the battle.

Asians are colored?

[Jason California]

Asians are colored?

Yellow.

[Dream]

Yellow.

Seriously?

[Jason California]

Seriously?


Yes. What is the issue?

[Dream]

Yes. What is the issue?

One, not all Asians have color. Some of them are pretty damn white. Same goes for Hispanics. Two, you shouldn't see people as colors.

[Jason California]

One, not all Asians have color. Some of them are pretty damn white. Same goes for Hispanics. Two, you shouldn't see people as colors.


It is a general term for a large group of people. Blacks can range anywhere from light brown to almost purple. white people range from pale to bronze. brown people are all over the place.

I don't view people as colors. I view people as people. I am a mutt with ancestry from all over the world. So I appreciate the education you want to give me, but I am alright.

[Dream]

It is a general term for a large group of people. Blacks can range anywhere from light brown to almost purple. white people range from pale to bronze. brown people are all over the place.

I don't view people as colors. I view people as people. I am a mutt with ancestry from all over the world. So I appreciate the education you want to give me, but I am alright.

I disagree, to me it's not you're either white or you're not. And using "coloured" the way you are using is incorrect. Like I said, there are Asians, Hispanics, and Muslims who are light skinned.

[Karen El]

Just the idiots. Despite Jerry Springer, not all Americans are a bunch of conservative, hateful yahoos. Particularly on YABS.

Well duh. I did say "some". Mostly the people who consider that a reasonable way to run a country is to block any law that is proposed, regardless of its subject matter, that people should receive no sex education other than "don't", and that giving any financial support to the poorest people is bad, while giving extra money to the richest is good.

Oh, and those whose idea of "freedom of speech" only extends as far as opinions they agree with.

[Dream]

Well duh. I did say "some". Mostly the people who consider that a reasonable way to run a country is to block any law that is proposed, regardless of its subject matter, that people should receive no sex education other than "don't", and that giving any financial support to the poorest people is bad, while giving extra money to the richest is good.

Oh, and those whose idea of "freedom of speech" only extends as far as opinions they agree with.

Not to be picky but you said many, not some.

[Karen El]

Not to be picky but you said many, not some.

But that is being entirely and utterly picky. I live in a country much smaller than yours, so "some" Americans is still a large number, AKA "many", by my standards.

Picky, picky, picky.

[Thequeerjock]

Well duh.

No need to get snarky.

[Karen El]

One, not all Asians have color. Some of them are pretty damn white. Same goes for Hispanics. Two, you shouldn't see people as colors.

How about if we see people as shapes? I'd imagine Muslims as semi-circular, while Americans are rhomboid. British people are triangular, obviously. Except for Geordies.

[Karen El]

No need to get snarky.

It's true. I didn't need to.

[Thequeerjock]

It's true. I didn't need to.

Well, I'm sorry if I came across as confrontational or something, because that's not what I was going for. I'm not getting the snark here.

[Teal_Lantern]

I have never heard the word colour used as an insult to people. Probably due to cultural differences up here in Canada. The word is rarely used, but I don't believe it's been used in a derogatory way.

Also, speaking as a Muslim, we're a religion, not an ethnicity.

[Jason California]

I disagree, to me it's not you're either white or you're not. And using "coloured" the way you are using is incorrect. Like I said, there are Asians, Hispanics, and Muslims who are light skinned.



And I am pretty sure I covered the fact that I understand there are variations in tone within the groupings. Black people are still called black even though most of them are not really black. In fact I can not think of a single black person I have met in my life whose skin color really was black.

It is a general term. When speaking about issues of race a person will use general terms that will not fit everybody in the group, but give a general idea or context to who you are talking about. As you know most race issues in the US are about how whites interact with everyone else. White in general terms usually means western European decent.

[Karen El]

Well, I'm sorry if I came across as confrontational or something, because that's not what I was going for. I'm not getting the snark here.

There's less here than meets the eye. I get a bit random when I'm short of sleep. I should probably go to bed.

[ceebee_eebee]

I have never heard the word colour used as an insult to people. Probably due to cultural differences up here in Canada. The word is rarely used, but I don't believe it's been used in a derogatory way.

Also, speaking as a Muslim, we're a religion, not an ethnicity.

"Colored" is a pejorative term in the United States. Equivalent to calling someone a Negro. There is nothing to debate.

[Teal_Lantern]

"Colored" is a pejorative term in the United States. Equivalent to calling someone a Negro. There is nothing to debate.

I see, the word does not get a lot of use where I live, so I'm pretty unfamiliar with its use.

[ceebee_eebee]

I see, the word does not get a lot of use where I live, so I'm pretty unfamiliar with its use.

No worries. Happy to educate. :-)

[MacQuarrie]

Because I am an idiot, I will go ahead and jump in here and see whether I can clear up some things or just muddy the water....

There are few points to consider here. First off is the use of terms like "coloured" ("colored," for us yanks) and its variants, such as "coloureds."

You might be able to use "coloured," but you most likely will be accused of racism if you refer to people as "coloureds." The reason is that prior to the Civil Rights movement, "the coloreds" was the "genteel" term for people of African descent, and was used almost universally in a patronizing or condescending manner. Many people of color (especially those over 50) will hear is as a dehumanizing put-down just slightly more polite than the N-word.

I know what you're thinking; why is "people of color" acceptable and "colored people" not? It's a subtle difference. "Person of color" makes the fact of personhood primary; it validates the person as a person. Reversing the words, making "colored" the defining term, limits and denigrates the person, making the individual part of a diminished class; "colored people" can be considered inferior to regular people, while a "person of color" is on equal footing with every other category of people. Basically it's a simple little denoting of respect.

Race in America is a hot-button issue, and there are two big mistakes one can make in dealing with it. One is to act as if it's irrelevant, a dead issue from the last century that doesn't matter anymore. The other is to act as if it's the most important thing in the world, the defining characteristic around which every person of color has built his/her life and personality, and the motivation behind every political action.

The truth is in the middle, as truths often are. Racism in the present, and the repercussions of racism in the past, remains a fact, but it's not the only fact, and while one's race and culture are important facts in anyone's life, they are rarely the primary or defining ones. Everyone wants to be seen as a unique individual, not just as a spokesperson for a segment of the population.

Terms that reduce an individual to nothing more than part of a group, especially terms that carry a subtextual message that said group is inferior and unimportant, are inherently offensive.

The difficulty being discussed in this thread is usually the result of not knowing the historic and cultural implications and origins of the term. I'll give you an example.

A common term for whites in America is "honky." Most people, especially white people, see the term as mildly insulting, but they don't usually know why.

Back in New York in the '50s, it was not uncommon for white men to go into Harlem looking for a prostitute, but as always, it was necessary to keep up appearances, and many such men did not want to be seen on the street under these circumstances. Eventually, a system evolved; the customer would drive past the prostitute, slow down, honk the horn once or twice, then go around to the alley and honk the horn again. The girl would then pass between the buildings to the alley and get into the car where passersby were unlikely to see and identify the car or driver.

Naturally, the locals viewed this display with roughly equal measures of amusement and disdain, insulted by the attitude of the johns and mocking of their fragile self-image. A "honky" is not just a while person; it's a white hypocrite who worries too much about appearances and tries to hide what he's really like under a veneer of pretense. It is insulting, and the people to whom it was applied are worthy of the insult.

The subject of race relations in America is peppered with literally thousands of similar examples, equally obscure, equally charged terms, which most people aren't really sure how to deal with.

[The Mandarin]

There's a certain historical irony to the way the word for African-Americans keeps changing. There was a time, back when the UNCF was created, that negro was the polite term, and black was considered racist. And when the NAACP was created, colored was the pc word.

The reason it keeps changing, is words are really value-neutral. It's all about the emotion, the venom, conveyed when saying that word that makes it pejorative. As soon as a new word for a race becomes the norm, bigots start saying it in a hateful tone, and it becomes the new offensive thing to say.

One day African-American will become common enough that even bigots adopt it, and start saying it with the venom they used to say negro and colored with. And on that day, someone will come up with yet another new word one must use not to be considered racist. This continual creating of a new name is silly, it's treating the symptom when what you need to do is treat the disease, the hate, that keeps people saying each new name with the same old venom.

[Jason California]

There's a certain historical irony to the way the word for African-Americans keeps changing. There was a time, back when the UNCF was created, that negro was the polite term, and black was considered racist. And when the NAACP was created, colored was the pc word.

The reason it keeps changing, is words are really value-neutral. It's all about the emotion, the venom, conveyed when saying that word that makes it pejorative. As soon as a new word for a race becomes the norm, bigots start saying it in a hateful tone, and it becomes the new offensive thing to say.

One day African-American will become common enough that even bigots adopt it, and start saying it with the venom they used to say negro and colored with. And on that day, someone will come up with yet another new word one must use not to be considered racist. This continual creating of a new name is silly, it's treating the symptom when what you need to do is treat the disease, the hate, that keeps people saying each new name with the same old venom.


I agree.

[Teal_Lantern]

No worries. Happy to educate. :-)

Thanks, I probably got it mixed up with "person of colour," which seems to be a fairly respectful word.

[sk716]

Before this goes any further, I would like to remind everyone that this is the kind of hot button topic that likes to degenerate into flaming and name calling. Being as I object wholeheartedly to both, let's try to keep it civil.


There's a certain historical irony to the way the word for African-Americans keeps changing. There was a time, back when the UNCF was created, that negro was the polite term, and black was considered racist. And when the NAACP was created, colored was the pc word.

The reason it keeps changing, is words are really value-neutral. It's all about the emotion, the venom, conveyed when saying that word that makes it pejorative. As soon as a new word for a race becomes the norm, bigots start saying it in a hateful tone, and it becomes the new offensive thing to say.

One day African-American will become common enough that even bigots adopt it, and start saying it with the venom they used to say negro and colored with. And on that day, someone will come up with yet another new word one must use not to be considered racist. This continual creating of a new name is silly, it's treating the symptom when what you need to do is treat the disease, the hate, that keeps people saying each new name with the same old venom.

It is getting better. I'm from Central Arkansas. All of my life Central High School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Rock_Central_High_School) has stood as a historical landmark for what happens when people get stupid. By the time I started school we didn't look at our racially diverse classmates with the disdain previous generations had, there was still a bit of social separation, though. When I graduated, in 1991, my high school was considered fully integrated. At the time it, like the city itself had a 60/40 split. Still does, actually, though the ethnicities have expanded a bit to include more than just white or black.

There is still a bit of social separation in my generation, you have friends of a different color, but they are less likely to be found hanging around on your sofa, so to speak.

Back in the fall, we took the kid to the Central High Museum. She's nine and has always attended public school in racially diverse areas. She didn't get it. She could not grasp that all of the hullabaloo was over skin color. Her friends don't get it. It's like an alien concept to them. To them, Michaela isn't a black girl, she's got the curly black hair. The other Michaela has blond hair.

So it is getting better. As long as the areas are racially diverse, then kids don't register difference. Another generation or two and it really will be a thing of the past. The older generations that still can't get past living through events like the integration of Central High School will have to pass on before we really start making progress.

[Dream]

Also, speaking as a Muslim, we're a religion, not an ethnicity.

A good amount of Americans believe Muslims are pure dark Middle Eastern people.

[Teal_Lantern]

A good amount of Americans believe Muslims are pure dark Middle Eastern people.

That is a common stereotype. The majority of Muslims do happen to have that appearance, well not necessarily a majority, but that is the largest group. Truth is there are a large number of White, Black, Asian Muslims out there.

[Dream]

That is a common stereotype. The majority of Muslims do happen to have that appearance, well not necessarily a majority, but that is the largest group. Truth is there are a large number of White, Black, Asian Muslims out there.

Oh, I know. I have some college friends that are Muslim but are ghostly pale. People just have that stupid association though.

[Teal_Lantern]

Oh, I know. I have some college friends that are Muslim but are ghostly pale. People just have that stupid association though.

Yup, I remember after 9/11 a lot of Sick people were being attacked because apparently, they looked more "Muslim" than actual Muslims.

[Dream]

Yup, I remember after 9/11 a lot of Sick people were being attacked because apparently, they looked more "Muslim" than actual Muslims.

Kind of how people treat Mexicans right now... You get a lot of assholes calling you a spic and to get out of "their" country when I am probably much more adept at English than they are.

[dasNdanger]

"Colored" is a pejorative term in the United States. Equivalent to calling someone a Negro. There is nothing to debate.

Ahhh...not always.

I have a dear older black friend who calls herself 'colored'. She thinks 'black' or 'African American' is offensive. 'Colored' can be a generational thing - what a person grew up with is what they are comfortable with.

Right now in America there are two terms that are fairly acceptable to people of African descent - African American, and black. Those are fairly safe to use, unless someone asks you to refer to their race as something else.

Since more and more children in America are being born to mixed-raced parents, there are all sorts of racial combinations - Asian-African, Hispanic-African, Asian-Hispanic, etc...and since it's hard to classify what 'race' they are, I tend to refer to them as people of color when it may be necessary to distinguish them from the pasty white folk. ;)

das

[Teal_Lantern]

Kind of how people treat Mexicans right now... You get a lot of assholes calling you a spic and to get out of "their" country when I am probably much more adept at English than they are.

Ugh, those guys are such assholes. It's sad that they actually seem to have some influence these days.

[Tyr]

I poke fun at Aussies every chance I get. What with their penal colony history, and their many many ass end nowhere parts, and their steady diet of beer, and the fact they don't give a rats ass that I poke fun at them.

Greg Proops did it and got away with it, so I should be able to too. :twisted:

[Jason California]

Kind of how people treat Mexicans right now... You get a lot of assholes calling you a spic and to get out of "their" country when I am probably much more adept at English than they are.


How often does that happen to you? I don't experience this much in my life, and anyone that looks at me will easily tell I am of Latin decent.

[dasNdanger]

How often does that happen to you? I don't experience this much in my life, and anyone that looks at me will easily tell I am of Latin decent.

Et tu, Brute?

;)


das - who is not of Latin decent, but couldn't pass up the joke.



das

[BriRedfern]

Knowing is half the battle.

Ha!

[Reverend Smooth]

How often does that happen to you? I don't experience this much in my life, and anyone that looks at me will easily tell I am of Latin decent.

Depends on where you live. It gets worse depending on region and even just from neighborhood to neighborhood.