Doctor Who--Warning Up-To-Minute Spoilers Included

[Alan Lynch]

Screw BBC America. One of my roommates who watches Dr Who bootlegged that puppy and it was stunning. Some mysteries were clarified, if you hadn't already figured it out,a nd they were done so beautifully. Meanwhile there's also a huge cliffhanger. Damn.
I agree, it was outstanding. It's a weird episode though, in that there's very little by way of plot about it. Mostly character work and some revelations, but I loved that. Gave it a different feel than most of the recent finales we've had.

And I've been waiting for that Rory since the end of last season. Great stuff.

[Eagle2000]

I was never a big fan of Dr. Who (David Tennant got on my nerves) but this is the best I've ever seen.

[Danimal]

I read one potential spoiler by mistake while looking up something else on IMDB and I must say, I love the casting. I may not be able to wait until Saturday for this.

[DarkKnightJared]

Yeah, I figured out a way to watch Good Man as well--AMAZING stuff. The BIG reveal I kinda figured out myself, but it was still well done, and they do some great character stuff with The Doctor that really makes sense for him.

[Spiffy]

Just saw the last episode tonight.

I had River's identity figured (at least as one of about three strong possibilities) some time ago, but even so liked the execution of things. I also had the identity of the little girl in the Spacesuit pretty down pat ever since that first episode (there really only were two possibilities), and I guess we still get to connect the dots about how these things lead to each other next fall.

I will say the way Amy could be in two places at once wasn't one I'd thought about. I mean there really WAS no way to know it until three weeks ago, but I definitely feel I should have picked up the big hints dropped then.

[Stressfactor]

Five Year Old Recites the Doctor's Speech from 'The Pandorica Opens' for His Talent Show

And it is both awesome and adorable.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUDsDhNKiBg

[The Xenos]

With this DC relaunch, now I know how River Song feels when she sees her Doctor rebooted to an earlier point in time where the Doctor is younger and she knows more about him and he does.

It is heartbreaking.

[bert]

no way.

I'll say "close, but no cigar"

Amy's confession to being pregnant points otherwise.

and

River's comment that he knew everything about her when they first met -- say, as if he was there when she was born?

River is Amy's baby.

which will make the show VERY interesting if that's the way they go.

cool. . unless this is a swerve (which it could well be). . nice to know that I called this months ago :)

[Corrina]

Okay, the exchange between the cool lizard lady (forget her name) and her human lover was possibly the dirtiest thing I've seen on TV in a long time. Of course, it was all implied, meaning I have a dirty mind but....still.....

[Shurato2099]

Dirty minds are fun.

[Thequeerjock]

Okay, the exchange between the cool lizard lady (forget her name) and her human lover was possibly the dirtiest thing I've seen on TV in a long time. Of course, it was all implied, meaning I have a dirty mind but....still.....

No, it definitely wasn't just you. I saw a quote from an article on Afterellen where they dubbed it the dirtiest joke in DW history.



I don't know why, but the Sontarans really make me uncomfortable whenever I see them.

[J. Wilson]

No, it definitely wasn't just you. I saw a quote from an article on Afterellen where they dubbed it the dirtiest joke in DW history.

Okay, what did I miss? I don't remember a joke.

[Corrina]

The lizard women and her human companion lover, Jenny, took over a station for the Doctor.

Jenny says: "I wonder sometimes what I see in you."
LIzard woman looks away, sees guard trying to escape, flicks her tongue across the room and swats the guy.

the husband and I looked at each other and decided that, yes, that definitely was the dirtiest visual joke that we'd seen in a long time on television. And yet, it's all implication, so still suitable for kids.

[JohnBehling]

The lizard women and her human companion lover, Jenny, took over a station for the Doctor.

Jenny says: "I wonder sometimes what I see in you."
LIzard woman looks away, sees guard trying to escape, flicks her tongue across the room and swats the guy.

the husband and I looked at each other and decided that, yes, that definitely was the dirtiest visual joke that we'd seen in a long time on television. And yet, it's all implication, so still suitable for kids.

Yes, that was funny.
And, yes I'm very glad I'm not the only one who took it that way....

[DarkKnightJared]

I don't know why, but the Sontarans really make me uncomfortable whenever I see them.

So I'm willing to guess that this Sontaran proclaiming that he has vast quantities of breast milk made you even more uncomfortable, huh?

[Kingsmythe]

Yes, that was funny.
And, yes I'm very glad I'm not the only one who took it that way....

Amusingly, my wife missed that part as she was mutitasking. When I rewound it for her, she was just shy of spitting her drink out. That was a GREAT scene.


As an aside, one thing I noted. River being Amy and Rory's daughter actually does not negate the idea of her being the Doctor's wife. Makes it a bit creepy,but doesn't negate it. His reaction to whatever she said didn't seem to jibe with "Oh, you're my friends' daughter" nor make sense with their past interactions. And when River told Amy and Rory who she was, it was after he left. I'm thinking she told them different things.

Just an idea, I may be wrong. Often am.

[The Xenos]

How the hell did I miss that tongue joke?!

[HamsterRage]

Amusingly, my wife missed that part as she was mutitasking. When I rewound it for her, she was just shy of spitting her drink out. That was a GREAT scene.


As an aside, one thing I noted. River being Amy and Rory's daughter actually does not negate the idea of her being the Doctor's wife. Makes it a bit creepy,but doesn't negate it. His reaction to whatever she said didn't seem to jibe with "Oh, you're my friends' daughter" nor make sense with their past interactions. And when River told Amy and Rory who she was, it was after he left. I'm thinking she told them different things.

Just an idea, I may be wrong. Often am.

I believe his reaction was the understanding that he's going to save River and things are going to be okay for a while.

I suppose it would be creepy if it weren't for the fact that he knows River as an adult Timelord hybrid first and foremost and not as a child.

[Larime Taylor]

He kept nervously looking back at Amy and Rory after he figured it out. Yes, he knows he's boffing his best friends' daughter.

[Stressfactor]

I thought the Sontaran was fascinating on a number of levels -- how being a "nurse" was considered humiliating penance and the hints that it was the Doctor who devised it for the Sontarans.

And then, as the Sontaran was dying, how he bitterly confessed to Rory that he was never a warrior, only a nurse and the expression on Rory's face as Rory realizes that the Sontaran has no idea that Rory IS a nurse -- he thinks Rory is a warrior.

And I'm surprised no one is talking yet about the other big thing here -- that the Doctor is the one who CAUSES all of this.

His own recent forays into badassery, his own reputation, everything from the past few years from "We're in the universe's largest library. Look. Me. Up." to "Basically.... run." Has led to this. That on the girl, Lorna, from the Gamma Forests the word "Doctor" means warrior...

In short, the Doctor has changed over the years... and is it for the better?

And the other interesting thing is that this DOES come off like Steven Moffat taking a poke at RTD's era and the gradual transformation of the Doctor into someone who is much closer to an action hero type than he has been since Jon Pertwee's time in the 1970's.

[Shurato2099]

Who knew the Silurians and the Luxans had so much in common ... ? :)

[t.c.johnson]

And the other interesting thing is that this DOES come off like Steven Moffat taking a poke at RTD's era and the gradual transformation of the Doctor into someone who is much closer to an action hero type than he has been since Jon Pertwee's time in the 1970's.

I don't think it is a poke because Moffat doesn't but more like a corse correction to prevent the Doctor from going too much to one side. If you look at the return of the series since 2005, Moffat was the one responsible for most of the badassary. (Forest of the Dead, 11th Hour, Pandorica Opens...)

But yeah, this is what Moffat meant by taking at dealing with the Doctor's fame. Can't wait to see how he resolves the problem.

[Stressfactor]

I don't think it is a poke because Moffat doesn't but more like a corse correction to prevent the Doctor from going too much to one side. If you look at the return of the series since 2005, Moffat was the one responsible for most of the badassary. (Forest of the Dead, 11th Hour, Pandorica Opens...)

But yeah, this is what Moffat meant by taking at dealing with the Doctor's fame. Can't wait to see how he resolves the problem.

Although others, elsewhere have pointed out that "The Pandorica Opens" is actually a badassery FAIL for the Doctor. He issues the 'Big Speech' and thinks he's intimidated his enemies but, in fact, they are simply waiting to spring the trap on him and, in the end, he falls for it.

That was kind of the opening salvo in this. Because here, again, we learn that the Doctor thinks he's won and thinks he's cowed his enemies but, in fact, they have simply set him up for a fall.

[t.c.johnson]

One thing that has been bothering me about Doctor who of late is the lack of interesting characters. Of course there is the Doctor but he seems like he was the only one. It also seemed like the entire universe revolved around him. For me it makes the universe seema bit smaller.

I loved that Moffatt introduced other heroic and interesting characters besides the Doctor. Having other heroes like Commander Strax, Captain Avery, Madame Astra and Jenny just gives the Doctor's universe that much more texture and makes things so much more fun and entertaining.

[Shurato2099]

I could really get into some more adventures with Madame Vastra and Jenny. They just had some nice by-play.

[Alan Lynch]

That was kind of the opening salvo in this. Because here, again, we learn that the Doctor thinks he's won and thinks he's cowed his enemies but, in fact, they have simply set him up for a fall.
It's not the fall we expected though, is it? Which was my only real issue with how the episode played out. Once we get the big reveal the Doctor is big smiles and floats off promising that everything will be just fine. Which given that we know River is alive and well seems true enough.

So there's my one nitpicky criticism. If you're going to promise the Doctor will fall farther than ever before he probably shouldn't be this happy at the end.

Agree with any and all praise of Madame Vastra and Jenny. They were great.

[JKCarrier]

It's not the fall we expected though, is it?

I imagine "the fall" is still to come. We know that River Song survives, but we also know that she (or someone in that spacesuit) is going to kill the Doctor stone dead.

[Stressfactor]

I imagine "the fall" is still to come. We know that River Song survives, but we also know that she (or someone in that spacesuit) is going to kill the Doctor stone dead.

That's certainly what's implied by the teaser for the Autumn series....



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B--vsg913TU

[Stressfactor]

No "full series" for 2012?!?!?!!

http://www.combom.co.uk/2011/06/confirmed-no-full-series-of-doctor-who.html


Arrrgghhhh!!!!!!

[Danimal]

No "full series" for 2012?!?!?!!

http://www.combom.co.uk/2011/06/confirmed-no-full-series-of-doctor-who.html


Arrrgghhhh!!!!!!

I don't know a ton about ratings in the UK, but I get the sense that Doctor Who is one of the higher rated shows. How does that not translate into finding some money to keep making full seasons? I know BBC Wales produces it, but don't they also get money from the Canadian Broadcasting Company and other international syndication deals?

[Spiffy]

That's certainly what's implied by the teaser for the Autumn series....



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B--vsg913TU
The Doctor has a skeleton? I thought he just had spacey wacey and timey wimey bits inside.

[Tobias M]

I don't know a ton about ratings in the UK, but I get the sense that Doctor Who is one of the higher rated shows. How does that not translate into finding some money to keep making full seasons? I know BBC Wales produces it, but don't they also get money from the Canadian Broadcasting Company and other international syndication deals?

Actually UK ratings this year weren't great, not taking into account iView however.

[Ravenwing263]

Hopefully they can take the year off to call Rusty and see if he'll give them the show's heart back.

[Martin J]

Actually UK ratings this year weren't great, not taking into account iView however.

On the other hand it did actually kick ass on the iPlayer. As the BBC is a non advertising network online viewing figures actually make a difference.

[Danimal]

Good to know. Again, knowing as little as I do about British television viewing habits, I'm assuming Saturday night is probably primarily family television viewing. I understand that Who has always been primarily seen as a "family" show in that it's designed both for kids and their parents. I've mentioned on here several times how much my son likes the show, but obviously a lot of it is often way beyond him at almost seven. As much as I'm enjoying the overarching mysteries of this season, I know he enjoys it pretty much for monster/alien of the week. While I prefer Moffat's writing to Davies', I think a little more emphasis on standalone episodes might help some with younger viewers, although I have no idea what that would do in terms of increasing ratings.

[t.c.johnson]

On the other hand it did actually kick ass on the iPlayer. As the BBC is a non advertising network online viewing figures actually make a difference.

It is the BBCA's biggest show and international sales of the DVD is a huge money maker for them

[Alan Lynch]

I imagine "the fall" is still to come. We know that River Song survives, but we also know that she (or someone in that spacesuit) is going to kill the Doctor stone dead.
I assume the same thing, but the previews made me think we'd see something of it in that episode. Especially given River's refusal to show up and help - I'm guessing we'll get an explanation for that too. But nitpicking here, it was a fine episode.

I don't know a ton about ratings in the UK, but I get the sense that Doctor Who is one of the higher rated shows. How does that not translate into finding some money to keep making full seasons? I know BBC Wales produces it, but don't they also get money from the Canadian Broadcasting Company and other international syndication deals?
The BBC is being hammered by government cuts, and IIRC they had to get rid of some of their commercial interests a couple of years back so I'm not sure how much syndication money they're allowed to put back in. I'd be surprised if Doctor Who revenue was all being spent on the show however; the BBC need cash all over the place these days.

[JKCarrier]

Especially given River's refusal to show up and help - I'm guessing we'll get an explanation for that too.

She may have just wanted to avoid coming in contact with her infant self. The show has been inconsistent about that...sometimes meeting yourself is disastrous (Rose in "Father's Day"), other times it's no big deal (Amy in "The Big Bang").

[Stressfactor]

She may have just wanted to avoid coming in contact with her infant self. The show has been inconsistent about that...sometimes meeting yourself is disastrous (Rose in "Father's Day"), other times it's no big deal (Amy in "The Big Bang").

It was kind of implied that the 'meeting yourself' bit in "The Big Bang" wasn't as dangerous because basically the whole universe was already collapsing.

I just figured, though, that River didn't want to be there because she A) already knew that she WASN'T there so she couldn't be there (wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey). And B) Knew that if she was there she would be tempted to do something to alter the outcome and she couldn't/shouldn't do that because it would change time -- possibly for the worse.

[Danimal]

It was kind of implied that the 'meeting yourself' bit in "The Big Bang" wasn't as dangerous because basically the whole universe was already collapsing.

I just figured, though, that River didn't want to be there because she A) already knew that she WASN'T there so she couldn't be there (wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey). And B) Knew that if she was there she would be tempted to do something to alter the outcome and she couldn't/shouldn't do that because it would change time -- possibly for the worse.

Yeah, I took it as knowing she could royally mess things up if she messed with her own timeline by being there.

[t.c.johnson]

I got a feeling that the Doctor's fall is going to be of his own making...literally. His reputation has gotten too great and is what cause the battle of Demon's Run that he is going to start attempting to reduce his reputation ending with a fake death by the hands of River in an Astronaught suit.

[Tobias M]

I got a feeling that the Doctor's fall is going to be of his own making...literally. His reputation has gotten too great and is what cause the battle of Demon's Run that he is going to start attempting to reduce his reputation ending with a fake death by the hands of River in an Astronaught suit.

So is that what she whispered to him in Silence in the Library? "I murdered you when I was five...do you trust me?"

[Alan Lynch]

So is that what she whispered to him in Silence in the Library? "I murdered you when I was five...do you trust me?"
"Did you ever watch Moll Flanders?"

[Pia Guerra]

So is that what she whispered to him in Silence in the Library? "I murdered you when I was five...do you trust me?"

She whispered his name. The Doctor says so later.

[Shurato2099]

ImurderedyouwhenIwasfive Doyoutrustme is the Doctor's name?! No wonder he changed it ... :)

[JBK405]

What confuses me is why everybody is so certain that the person in the space suit is River Song or a past/future version of her. As the characters mention freqently, the Doctor has had two centuries of adventures before he gets back to this point and has already had nine centuries of whacky hijinks. There's a lot of people out there, including people we both have and haven't met, that could be in that suit.

But, some people might say, we saw the little girl in the space suit earlier in the episode. Yes, I respond, but that was then, this is now (Or rather, it will be now at some point in the future. Got to keep those tenses straight); we actually know for a fact that she broke out of the suit at some point, so who knows who might have gotten in once she was gone? In fact, who says it's even the same suit? All space suits look pretty much alike and there are hundreds of them out there. It could be a complete coincidence, with some completely unrelated villain/ally killing the doctor right then for an obscure motive that we don't know yet (I'm not saying it is a complete coincidence, just that we've been given so little concrete info).

I concede that it is extremely likely that the person in the suit will be somebody we know for the sake of drama, and it has long been implied that River killed/will kill the Doctor at some point, so that is something in favor of it being River in the suit, but those are general bits and foreshadowing hints gleaned from a dozen different episodes. There was nothing here, in any of these episodes that featured or discussed the space suit, to imply that it was River then and there.

[Danimal]

What confuses me is why everybody is so certain that the person in the space suit is River Song or a past/future version of her. As the characters mention freqently, the Doctor has had two centuries of adventures before he gets back to this point and has already had nine centuries of whacky hijinks. There's a lot of people out there, including people we both have and haven't met, that could be in that suit.

But, some people might say, we saw the little girl in the space suit earlier in the episode. Yes, I respond, but that was then, this is now (Or rather, it will be now at some point in the future. Got to keep those tenses straight); we actually know for a fact that she broke out of the suit at some point, so who knows who might have gotten in once she was gone? In fact, who says it's even the same suit? All space suits look pretty much alike and there are hundreds of them out there. It could be a complete coincidence, with some completely unrelated villain/ally killing the doctor right then for an obscure motive that we don't know yet (I'm not saying it is a complete coincidence, just that we've been given so little concrete info).

I concede that it is extremely likely that the person in the suit will be somebody we know for the sake of drama, and it has long been implied that River killed/will kill the Doctor at some point, so that is something in favor of it being River in the suit, but those are general bits and foreshadowing hints gleaned from a dozen different episodes. There was nothing here, in any of these episodes that featured or discussed the space suit, to imply that it was River then and there.

I understand it's all conjecture, but eyepatch lady did say that they would turn her into a weapon to use against the Doctor.

[JBK405]

Ooooh...you know, I'd actualy completely forgotten that point. I took that to refer more to River's whole life, not just that she would be a person to pull a trigger, but that really is something to latch onto. Whoops.

[HamsterRage]

it started bothering me the other night...

I think I can fan wank a TimeLord into Star Trek.

A hybrid TimeLord.

When the Doctor closed off the Time War, a sole TimeLord known as The Listener escaped into a side dimension along with a damaged Dalek.

The damaged Dalek was found by V'ger, corrupting V'ger and evolving it into the Borg.

While The Listener arrived at a class M planet El-Auria and fell in love.


This leads us to TNG and my theory that Guinan is half TimeLord.

From wiki:

In "Q Who?," Q retorts, after hearing her called "Guinan" in the Enterprise-D's Ten-Forward lounge, "'Guinan' – is that your name now?" He claims that Guinan, "is not what she appears to be." As well, when Q reaches out his hand towards Guinan and offers to Picard her extradition from the Enterprise, Guinan holds her two hands up at Q in a threatening manner, perhaps suggesting she may have some hidden powers she has not displayed openly.

Eh? Eeeeeh?

[t.c.johnson]

Ok...that episode was the most bizzare....what the heck?

I liked it. I think I liked it..unless I was programed to like it.

[Stressfactor]

This episode felt very much like a combination of wrapping up and setting up.

It fairely wrapped up the mystery of River Song

But then it set up more of the Silence, "The Question", and the Doctor's death.

I didn't hate it and I actually think it accomplished what it set out to do -- whet our appetites for what is to come. But if I were to take it just as itself alone -- it really wouldn't stand up. In many ways to truly enjoy this episode you have to have been watching ever since "Silence in the Library/Forests of the Dead".

I did get a kick, though, out of the Doctor seeing some of his more recent companions and proclaiming "Guilt, guilt and more guilt."


And...... Rory is a badass.

I love how Rory manages to combine this sort of "This in my life now" attitude with a "This is my life now?!" perspective.

He's been traveling with the Doctor and yet he still tries to keep both of his feet on the ground in his own way. It's fun.

[Thequeerjock]

River's little "shopping trip" was a highlight for me. I didn't see the twist with "Mells" coming either! I agree though, it was kinda continuity-heavy, even by DW standards.

[Corrina]

I have to love an episode that features Hitler, a fake banana gun, a walking person space ship, antibodies and...um...well...SPOILERS!

All that stuff? Only side issues. I don't know what's the opposite of decompression but this was it.

This show really surprises me. I like that.

[Corrina]

Also...they snuck in a tribute to Lis Sladen, bless them.

[Danimal]

I enjoyed the episode. I like the Rory got some badass moments and "Shut up, Hitler!" is my new favorite line.

[Keith P.]

Rory is rapidly becoming my favorite companion. But I'm afraid that he might be the one River is imprisoned for killing.

[Stressfactor]

Also...they snuck in a tribute to Lis Sladen, bless them.

Oh, missed that!* Where?!










*In my defense a wasp had gotten into my apartment and I was frantically trying to whack it with a flyswatter while also not pissing it off enough to get stung.

[Stressfactor]

I think the best way to sum up this episode is as an Oreo cookie.

Last season we got the top, chocolatey cookie layer.

And with this episode we got the creamy filling.

Now we're waiting to get the other chocolatey cookie layer.




I've also figured out that, for those who are fans of the Classic series as well, Rory is kind of like a more sophisticated and fleshed out verison of Harry Sullivan. They have a lot in common....

Harry was a doctor, Rory is a nurse.

Harry kind of got swept up into being the Doctor's companion without the Doctor or Harry really intending him to.
The Doctor swept up Rory to fix his and Amy's relationship but neither Rory nor the Doctor seems to have anticipated this becoming an ongoing thing.

Harry was a nice, sweet, polite, slightly old-fashioned and bumbling but utterly normal guy.
Rory is a nice, sweet, polite, slightly bumbling, utterly normal guy (or at least he was before he got 2000 years of alternate Earth history stuck in his head along with training as a Roman Centurian).

When the chips were down Harry proved he could be quite courageous and competant.
When the chips are down Rory turns into a badass.

The big difference is that the character of Harry Sullivan was really not fleshed out much nor given enough time with the series to BE fleshed out. Whereas Rory has kind of stepped in to be the voice of the audience here, surprisingly. Almost far more than Amy. Rory is the one who is still capable of being astonished and he's the one who keeps pointing out how impossible all of this is.

[Suffering Sappho]

I liked it overall, but seriously someone needs to sit Moffat down and have a little talk about sexism. A grown woman doesn't need permission from her husband to hug someone, and the line And she's a woman! how is that necessary or anything but outright misogyny?

[Stressfactor]

I liked it overall, but seriously someone needs to sit Moffat down and have a little talk about sexism. A grown woman doesn't need permission from her husband to hug someone, and the line And she's a woman! how is that necessary or anything but outright misogyny?

The hug thing I didn't read so much as Rory giving Amy permission as more the Doctor obliquely asking Rory if *Rory* was going to get a bug up his nose over it. It was kind of a "we're over the whole jealousy/rivalry thing now, right?" kind of moment.

Which, really, was settled in "Amy's Choice" and shouldn't have been rehashed in "Day of the Moon" but even then it was pretty much settled in "Day of the Moon".

The other one was a little bit of a low blow but, then again, the 11th Doctor also seems to have shown himself in the past to be rather impolite and sometimes even unsufferably rude. He's told both Amy and Rory to "shut up" on several occasions for example. So I'm not sure how much was Moffat not thinking and how much was Moffat again showing off that unsufferable rude side to this version of the Doctor.

[Corrina]

Oh, missed that!* Where?!










*In my defense a wasp had gotten into my apartment and I was frantically trying to whack it with a flyswatter while also not pissing it off enough to get stung.

When the Doctor was asking for the TARDIS program to talk to him. He asked for someone to speak with. It started with the current Doctor, he said "no, let me talk to someone I like," moved to Rose (too much guilt), Martha (even more guilt), and then to Sarah Jane to which he responded "can you show me someone I haven't screwed up?" or something like that. That's when he ended up with 11-year-old Amelia Pond.

But the Sarah Jane imaged lingered longer than the others.

[J. Wilson]

I liked the episode with all it's chaotic craziness.

[Corrina]

I liked it overall, but seriously someone needs to sit Moffat down and have a little talk about sexism. A grown woman doesn't need permission from her husband to hug someone, and the line And she's a woman! how is that necessary or anything but outright misogyny?

I mostly took that to mean that the Doctor knows that Rory is jealous and insecure as the Doctor/Amy relationship. That line just acknowledged the jealousy. It wasn't the Doctor asking permission to hug Amy, it was the Doctor asking Rory if he'd be okay (meaning: not jealous) if he hugged Amy.

Not about who owns Amy. All about the Doctor respecting the fact that Rory sometimes believes that Amy loves the Doctor more. Thought it was a nice bit of friendship between them, really, since it was all about them and really had nothing to do with Amy. We've seen the Doctor's friendship with Amy. Not so much the Doctor's friendship with Rory.

Also, this technically isn't a full new season, it's the second half of one season. I think a mid-season episode can be continuity-heavy.

[Suffering Sappho]

The hug thing I didn't read so much as Rory giving Amy permission as more the Doctor obliquely asking Rory if *Rory* was going to get a bug up his nose over it. It was kind of a "we're over the whole jealousy/rivalry thing now, right?" kind of moment.

Which, really, was settled in "Amy's Choice" and shouldn't have been rehashed in "Day of the Moon" but even then it was pretty much settled in "Day of the Moon".

The other one was a little bit of a low blow but, then again, the 11th Doctor also seems to have shown himself in the past to be rather impolite and sometimes even unsufferably rude. He's told both Amy and Rory to "shut up" on several occasions for example. So I'm not sure how much was Moffat not thinking and how much was Moffat again showing off that unsufferable rude side to this version of the Doctor.

Yeah, they really should have stopped playing that "Who does Amy really love?!" game a long time ago. And it is possible to be rude without being sexist. Plus Moffat has said some gross stuff about Amy being a "naughty girl" in an interview recently and I just need him to step away. It looks like all the other episodes this season (except for the finale) are written by someone else so there's that to look forward to. It pops up in his other works too, like in "Sherlock" his misogyny is played for laughs by Moffat but other writers treat it as a character flaw instead of a lovable quirk.

[Corrina]

But his Sherlock pretty much hates *everyone.* Well, except Watson. But he's rude and mean to Watson as well.

[Suffering Sappho]

Not about who owns Amy. All about the Doctor respecting the fact that Rory sometimes believes that Amy loves the Doctor more. Thought it was a nice bit of friendship between them, really, since it was all about them and really had nothing to do with Amy. We've seen the Doctor's friendship with Amy. Not so much the Doctor's friendship with Rory.



He was asking permission to hug HER! How can that possibly have nothing to do with her? How about she hugs her friends whenever she likes and if Rory has a problem with it, tell him to jump in a lake instead of having some male bonding about his feelings about Amy choosing who she wants to hug?

[t.c.johnson]

I just saw that as being respectful of Amy and Rory's relationship. Not everything misogynistic or sexist.

I was going to have a problem with the black character being a criminal until they threw in that twist.

Did they say why the doctor got dressed up for the finale?

[Corrina]

He's not asking permission. He's asking if Rory is over the jealousy. But if you see the other, likely nothing I can say will dissuade you of that.

[Stressfactor]

When the Doctor was asking for the TARDIS program to talk to him. He asked for someone to speak with. It started with the current Doctor, he said "no, let me talk to someone I like," moved to Rose (too much guilt), Martha (even more guilt), and then to Sarah Jane to which he responded "can you show me someone I haven't screwed up?" or something like that. That's when he ended up with 11-year-old Amelia Pond.

But the Sarah Jane imaged lingered longer than the others.

Actually, I think that was Donna. It would make sense in the context -- i.e. the full-time companions the Doctor has had since the new series launched -- Rose, Martha and Donna. It also would fit on the "even more guilt" line for Donna since he had to take away from Donna her memories and hence how she had grown as a person. I really can't see him being that guilty over Sarah Jane since, the last time her saw her, she was a happy mum and leading a group of kids around saving the universe.

[Suffering Sappho]

But his Sherlock pretty much hates *everyone.* Well, except Watson. But he's rude and mean to Watson as well.

Again, it's possible to be rude without being sexist. In "Study in Pink" he's obviously nasty to a woman who the audience can tell is crushing on him "Har Har Har!", and he says that nasty thing to the policewoman about "the state of her knees". "oooo, burn! How dare she participate in oral sex, isn't she nasty!". Even John gives her a little look. Written by Moffat.

In "The Great Game", he tells the same lab worker that her boyfriend isn't interested in her, and John tells him it was a cruel thing to do and reproaches him for it. Not written by Moffat.

There is a pattern here.

[Suffering Sappho]

Actually, I think that was Donna. It would make sense in the context -- i.e. the full-time companions the Doctor has had since the new series launched -- Rose, Martha and Donna. It also would fit on the "even more guilt" line for Donna since he had to take away from Donna her memories and hence how she had grown as a person. I really can't see him being that guilty over Sarah Jane since, the last time her saw her, she was a happy mum and leading a group of kids around saving the universe.

I thought it was Donna too, but I didn't have my glasses on so I can't be too sure.

[Stressfactor]

Did they say why the doctor got dressed up for the finale?No. But the Doctor being the Doctor, maybe he thought he should die with a little style?

Also, there are rumors that this second half of the season may be kind of circular and, just like that issue with the Doctor's coat in "Flesh and Stone" we may see Amy, Rory, River and the Doctor end up back at certain points in time we've already seen.

You'll note that there's a time gap there. We see the Doctor ill and dying and then.... boom there he is dressed to the nines.

Considering this is Moffat -- ANY time we're given a seeming missing chunk of time I would suspect that something is up. Moffat seems to be getting a kick out of playing with the 'time travel' aspects of the show.

That's just a rumor though.

[Suffering Sappho]

He's not asking permission. He's asking if Rory is over the jealousy. But if you see the other, likely nothing I can say will dissuade you of that.

What would have happened if Rory had said "No"? He used the word "permission" with a question mark. How is that not asking? My point is, The Doctor shouldn't even have asked. It's Amy's body and she should get final say about what she does with it, especially when the first half of the season had her with her bodily agency taken away and controlled by others the entire time.

Sorry if I seem a bit touchy but the whole treatment of Amy in the show and in fandom is one of those things that really sets me off. It's all the little things piling up, you know?

[t.c.johnson]

No. But the Doctor being the Doctor, maybe he thought he should * SPOILER * with a little style?

Also, there are rumors that this second half of the season may be kind of circular and, just like that issue with the Doctor's coat in "Flesh and Stone" we may see Amy, Rory, River and the Doctor end up back at certain points in time we've already seen.

You'll note that there's a time gap there. * SPOILER * and then.... boom there he is dressed to the nines.

Considering this is Moffat -- ANY time we're given a seeming missing chunk of time I would suspect that something is up. Moffat seems to be getting a kick out of playing with the 'time travel' aspects of the show.

That's just a rumor though.

That is kinda what I was thinking too...and hoping for really otherwise there are some plot holes. Not major ones but the episode feels lime some things are incomplete.

[Greg S]

Again, it's possible to be rude without being sexist. In "Study in Pink" he's obviously nasty to a woman who the audience can tell is crushing on him "Har Har Har!", and he says that nasty thing to the policewoman about "the state of her knees". "oooo, burn! How dare she participate in oral sex, isn't she nasty!". Even John gives her a little look. Written by Moffat.

In "The Great Game", he tells the same lab worker that her boyfriend isn't interested in her, and John tells him it was a cruel thing to do and reproaches him for it. Not written by Moffat.

There is a pattern here.

There is a pattern here that was established by Arthur Conan Doyle over 100 years ago, with the original Sherlock Holmes. I won't argue your interpretation of the events of Doctor Who, because, although I don't agree with them, I can see how you would come to those conclusions. But Sherlock Holmes being mysogynistic is just writing the character the way he was created. SHERLOCK gets the characterizations of Holmes and Watson perfectly and Holmes has little use for women. So anything in SHERLOCK that shows Holmes being distrustful of, rude to, or minimizing the usefulness of women is not Moffat projecting his own feelings onto Sherlock. It's just getting the character of Sherlock right.

[t.c.johnson]

It's Amy's body but the relationship and intimacy belongs to both Amy and Rory. And the Doctor is right to step lightly there.

[Suffering Sappho]

There is a pattern here that was established by Arthur Conan Doyle over 100 years ago, with the original Sherlock Holmes. I won't argue your interpretation of the events of Doctor Who, because, although I don't agree with them, I can see how you would come to those conclusions. But Sherlock Holmes being mysogynistic is just writing the character the way he was created. SHERLOCK gets the characterizations of Holmes and Watson perfectly and Holmes has little use for women. So anything in SHERLOCK that shows Holmes being distrustful of, rude to, or minimizing the usefulness of women is not Moffat projecting his own feelings onto Sherlock. It's just getting the character of Sherlock right.

Yes, Sherlock is a confirmed misogynist, but in the second example I gave it was used as an example of bad behavior, not something cute and funny like Moffat uses it.

[Danimal]

There is a pattern here that was established by Arthur Conan Doyle over 100 years ago, with the original Sherlock Holmes. I won't argue your interpretation of the events of Doctor Who, because, although I don't agree with them, I can see how you would come to those conclusions. But Sherlock Holmes being mysogynistic is just writing the character the way he was created. SHERLOCK gets the characterizations of Holmes and Watson perfectly and Holmes has little use for women. So anything in SHERLOCK that shows Holmes being distrustful of, rude to, or minimizing the usefulness of women is not Moffat projecting his own feelings onto Sherlock. It's just getting the character of Sherlock right.

There have also been a few instances on Sherlock that show that one thing he doesn't seem to understand is sex and sexuality, sort of like his difficulty with understanding the solar system - he probably sees it as useless knowledge. He thought Watson was coming on to him, didn't understand why Watson wouldn't want him along on the date or didn't care, thought Moriarty was a woman at first, etc. I saw all of those more as Sherlock not knowing how to understand and deal with normal social conventions and niceties, as opposed to something with Moffat. I will freely admit that Moffat did himself no favors on some of the Who Insiders where he made comments like "and she's hot!"

[Danimal]

I thought it was Donna too, but I didn't have my glasses on so I can't be too sure.

Yeah, that was Donna. It would have been a blast to see Susan or Romana.

[Suffering Sappho]

I will freely admit that Moffat did himself no favors on some of the Who Insiders where he made comments like "and she's hot!"

There's that, and he's also said this:
There’s this issue you’re not allowed to discuss: that women are needy. Men can go for longer, more happily, without women. That’s the truth. We don’t, as little boys, play at being married - we try to avoid it for as long as possible. Meanwhile women are out there hunting for husbands.

(Even the interviewer had to say that recent studies prove otherwise.)

and this:
Well, the world is vastly counted in favour of men at every level - except if you live in a civilised country and you’re sort of educated and middle-class, because then you’re almost certainly junior in your relationship and in a state of permanent, crippled apology. Your preferences are routinely mocked. There’s a huge, unfortunate lack of respect for anything male

In this interview (http://living.scotsman.com/features/Time-Lad-scores-with-sex.2535185.jp)in 2004.

So, yeah, the guy has issues.

[JohnBehling]

You'll note that there's a time gap there. * SPOILER * and then.... boom there he is dressed to the nines.

Considering this is Moffat -- ANY time we're given a seeming missing chunk of time I would suspect that something is up. Moffat seems to be getting a kick out of playing with the 'time travel' aspects of the show.


Oh that's a great catch. Didn't think of it. Not sure exactly it would line up, didn't seem to with his attitude vat the end, but... very interesting possibility.

[Stressfactor]

By the way, when they started talking about the ultimate question and the Answer did anyone else go "Life, the Universe and Everything" and "42"?

[t.c.johnson]

I am glad those guys from the season opener were not the whole of the silence. I was disappointed when it was revealed that they were the Silence. I was like, "That's it?". So I am very happy to learn the Silence is much bigger than them.

[NickT]

He was asking permission to hug HER! How can that possibly have nothing to do with her? How about she hugs her friends whenever she likes and if Rory has a problem with it, tell him to jump in a lake instead of having some male bonding about his feelings about Amy choosing who she wants to hug?
I don't know, I think you're putting too much emphasis on that. I don't think a friend turning to someone in a relationship and asking if he can hug the other friend in the relationship has to mean anything at all.

Also, this is the Moffat who has the Doctor call Rory "Mr Pond" and writes Amy as the one who wears the trousers in the relationship. To put such weight on him asking to hug her feel like it requires you to ignore a lot of other stuff.

[Greg S]

Yes, Sherlock is a confirmed misogynist, but in the second example I gave it was used as an example of bad behavior, not something cute and funny like Moffat uses it.

I think you are projecting the "cute and funny" interpretation onto that incident. I didn't take it that way. I thought it was there for Watson to learn that Sherlock has some real "social" problems. And as Watson sees it more and more he criticizes Holmes for it. I think you are forgetting that Moffet is not just some random writer for this show, he is also the showrunner on SHERLOCK, which means he edits and sometimes re-writes all the other scripts. If he didn't want Holmes' behavior to be seen as bad, he could have cut the line where Watson says it was needlessly cruel. Your mileage may vary, of course.

[Kingsmythe]

Ok.... to add a bit to two recurring things of late here-

while I'd love for their to have been a Sarah Jane nod, neither me nor my wife saw it. The scene referrenced was pretty clearly Donna, not Sarah.

As to the hug issue, LIGHTEN UP. It was a nice little bit of the Doctor showing some deference to Rory. Amy wasn't getting permission, nor, as has been shown time and again, would she. If you're reading that much into it, I would submit that maybe you're projecting some. While yes, I am male, this was another bit my wife and I talked about, and she's of the same opinion. See, I got her opinion because I respect her, not that I needed it to post this. Just for example.

[Suffering Sappho]

Ok.... to add a bit to two recurring things of late here-

while I'd love for their to have been a Sarah Jane nod, neither me nor my wife saw it. The scene referrenced was pretty clearly Donna, not Sarah.

As to the hug issue, LIGHTEN UP. It was a nice little bit of the Doctor showing some deference to Rory. Amy wasn't getting permission, nor, as has been shown time and again, would she. If you're reading that much into it, I would submit that maybe you're projecting some. While yes, I am male, this was another bit my wife and I talked about, and she's of the same opinion. See, I got her opinion because I respect her, not that I needed it to post this. Just for example.

People really need to stop telling me to lighten up. If you don't see it, fine, you don't see it, but that doesn't make my feelings invalid or an over reaction.

The Doctor said "Permission?", that is the word "permission" with a question mark after it, meaning he is asking to get it. "Deference" is actually an interesting choice of word, since it can mean "submission to or compliance with the will, wishes, etc., of another (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/deference)". (And that's the first definition, not some wacky barely used meaning of the word). So what we have here is The Doctor (who is not Amy) showing deference to Rory (who is also not Amy) about whether Amy can hug someone with her husband's (still not Amy's) permission. Rory's opinion about this doesn't matter. Amy's body, Amy's choice. Period. If Rory has a problem with it, that's his problem that he needs to work on and not something that needs to be shown deference.

And for future reference, saying you found a woman who doesn't agree with me doesn't make my opinion officially invalid. Not a hive mind.

[Shurato2099]

This is the only thing I'm going to say on this hugging thing.

Correct me if I'm wrong but there were two (2) people involved in that hug, both of whom had bodies and both of whom had choices.

Given the awkwardness and tension between Rory and the Doctor early in the season regarding Amy's affections (real and/or imagined) I read the asking of permission like this: showing deference to Rory's position (lawfully wedded husband) the Doctor asked his (Rory's) permission before engaging in a hug with his (Rory's) lawfully wedded wife (Amy). Had Rory declined to give permission the Doctor may well have not participated in the hugging gesture at that time ... at which point I would have fully expected Amy to put one or both men into a head lock.

Given Amy's character, had -she- not wished to engage in the hugging gesture she bloody well wouldn't have and if -she- wanted to hug the Doctor she would have done so regardless of what either man had to say on the subject. For any and all social purposes -Amy- wears the pants in that police box.

[Larime Taylor]

Considering that this is the guy who has written strong female characters such as the teenage mother in Empty Child/Doctor Dances and Madame De Pompadour in Girl In The Fireplace, not to mention Amy who is by far the most assertive female companion we've had in some time, I have a hard time seeing Moffat as a raging misogynist. I found Rose and Martha to be far more stereotypical, needy, possessive female characters, and find Amy's aggressiveness quite refreshing. For once, she's not the 'little lady' in the TARDIS.

[Suffering Sappho]

Considering that this is the guy who has written strong female characters such as the teenage mother in Empty Child/Doctor Dances and Madame De Pompadour in Girl In The Fireplace, not to mention Amy who is by far the most assertive female companion we've had in some time, I have a hard time seeing Moffat as a raging misogynist. I found Rose and Martha to be far more stereotypical, needy, possessive female characters, and find Amy's aggressiveness quite refreshing. For once, she's not the 'little lady' in the TARDIS.

I do appreciate that Amy is a strong character, but when you listen to Moffat's opinions on the Amy/Rory dynamic he's always just giggling about how whipped Rory is and how Rory needs to protect this woman he found so he can finally feel like a real man etc. Not to mention almost every episode we have to have Amy "prove" how much she loves Rory and deserves Rory etc. Plus he has some fascination with "bad girls" and actually called Amy "naughty" in one interview because she doesn't blindly obey everything the men tell her to do. He doesn't really see it as just being aggressive, it's just a fetish for him. It's possible to do some things right and get other things wrong or to possibly do things right for the wrong reasons.

Plus, with a line like "She's a woman!" used as an explanation about why someone was evil. . .

[Larime Taylor]

I'll agree to disagree.

[Kingsmythe]

Interestingly, watching "The Best of the Companions" special, there's a scene from early on with the Matt Smith Doctor, in which he and Amy are hugging, and Rory comes up and says "That's probably enough hugging." So there does, indeed seem to be a precedent for him having an issue with it. Which means anyone who had any degree of consideration would, probably, ask about that.

However, I'm not looking to argue this to death. If you always look to be offended, you probably will be. Just a thought. I withdraw from this portion of the discussion at this time.

[Suffering Sappho]

Interestingly, watching "The Best of the Companions" special, there's a scene from early on with the Matt Smith Doctor, in which he and Amy are hugging, and Rory comes up and says "That's probably enough hugging." So there does, indeed seem to be a precedent for him having an issue with it. Which means anyone who had any degree of consideration would, probably, ask about that.

However, I'm not looking to argue this to death. If you always look to be offended, you probably will be. Just a thought. I withdraw from this portion of the discussion at this time.

No one looks to be offended. Cut that out.

Again. If Rory has a problem with his wife hugging other people that makes him a controlling asshole and he doesn't deserve to have that impulse encouraged. Anyone with "any degree of consideration" would tell him to F*ck off, in my opinion. Interesting that his feelings are obviously more important than Amy actually getting a say in what happens in her life.

[Teal_Lantern]

However, I'm not looking to argue this to death. If you always look to be offended, you probably will be. Just a thought. I withdraw from this portion of the discussion at this time.

Good thing no one is looking to be offended.

Even though I wasn't myself.

[Stressfactor]

Anyone pick up on all the religious overtones as well?

The Silence is revealed to be be a a system of belief

River poisons the Doctor with a kiss and the poison comes from the Judas Tree.

People used to bash RTD for comparing the Doctor to Jesus but Moffat just did it without a word being said about it.

[t.c.johnson]

So those army clerics...were they a part of the silence religion?

[Greg S]

Anyone pick up on all the religious overtones as well?

The Silence is revealed to be be a a system of belief

River poisons the Doctor with a kiss and the poison comes from the Judas Tree.

People used to bash RTD for comparing the Doctor to Jesus but Moffat just did it without a word being said about it.

I don't think people bashed RTD for the comparisons, it was for the lack of subtlety in the comparisons.

[Jim Ritchey]

Good thing no one is looking to be offended.

Even though I wasn't myself.

Only thing that disturbs me about a couple of insignificant instances of jealousy is that anyone would consider it sexist. I had an ex-fiancee who would fly into a rage for me being polite to a waitress. Since when has 'needy' insecurity become the moral equivalent of spousal abuse? Seems like stereotype reinforcement to me.

If anyone has led an insecurity-free existence, please cast the first stone. There are all sorts of reasons for Rory to be insecure about Amy--he's like the 'Xander' to her and The Doctor as 'Buffy'--which actually makes him more respectable.

Only thing that bugged me about the episode was (spoiler)... 'Mel's' decades of brainwashing being overcome by watching the Doctor struggle to save Rory and Amy.

[Larime Taylor]

Are we really still having this argument? Rory has been played up as insecure for the past season and a half. The Doctor knows that he feels threatened by him, only complicated by the fact that he also apparently has been having a relationship with his daughter. This had nothing to do with controlling Amy or her body, and everything to do with the Doctor trying to be more sensitive to Rory's feelings. Regardless of what Rory had decided, as at least one other poster has already pointed out, if Amy wanted a hug, she would have gotten one. There are real, horrible injustices done on a daily basis. Dr. Who isn't one of them.

[Suffering Sappho]

Are we really still having this argument? Rory has been played up as insecure for the past season and a half. The Doctor knows that he feels threatened by him, only complicated by the fact that he also apparently has been having a relationship with his daughter. This had nothing to do with controlling Amy or her body, and everything to do with the Doctor trying to be more sensitive to Rory's feelings. Regardless of what Rory had decided, as at least one other poster has already pointed out, if Amy wanted a hug, she would have gotten one. There are real, horrible injustices done on a daily basis. Dr. Who isn't one of them.

What? So if bad things happen in the world I can't question a line in a TV show I find to be problematic? Must have missed that memo.

I don't know if I'm just not saying this well, but the fact that the Doctor (and apparently Moffat and the fans) care more about the fact that Rory has jealousy issues than what Amy thinks or feels about anything is creepy. Yes, I'm sure she would have told Rory off if he didn't "give permission", but the problem is he shouldn't have even been asked in the first place!

And the hug line isn't the only one I mentioned and not the one I'm most upset about. I also pointed out the line where the Doctor explains how a person is EVIL by pointing out that they are A WOMAN. Along with Moffat's behavior in interviews it points to a pretty gross attitude towards women. You don't have to agree but don't tell me how to feel about it.

I'm done with this thread. Frankly I'm surprised to see this kind of attitude on this forum.

[Larime Taylor]

Not that I'm sure you're even going to read this, but just because a character acts a certain way doesn't mean that the actors or writers or anyone else agrees with that behavior. Characters have flaws. Rory has been clearly established from the beginning as being insecure. That's his flaw. If we only wrote characters that behaved in the most ideal ways, our stories would be boring. So because we recognize this, that makes us creepy? Seriously? I've never called you any names, and tried to explain the situation as most of us seem to see it. If you want to call me creepy because you disagree, go right ahead. No, the character shouldn't have been asked in the first place, but the character has flaws that have informed a large part of the relationship. That's called writing realistic characters. Characters do things on this show that they shouldn't all the time. It has nothing to do with any agenda, and no one is telling you how to feel. You, on the other hand, are clearly making it known that we're creeps because we don't agree with you, however.

The comment about a person being evil because they're a woman was intended as a joke and plays on the fact that the Doctor doesn't understand human relationships and gender issues. If you honestly think that the Doctor thinks that women are evil, maybe you should watch a different program.

[Suffering Sappho]

Not that I'm sure you're even going to read this, but just because a character acts a certain way doesn't mean that the actors or writers or anyone else agrees with that behavior. Characters have flaws. Rory has been clearly established from the beginning as being insecure. That's his flaw. If we only wrote characters that behaved in the most ideal ways, our stories would be boring. So because we recognize this, that makes us creepy? Seriously? I've never called you any names, and tried to explain the situation as most of us seem to see it. If you want to call me creepy because you disagree, go right ahead. No, the character shouldn't have been asked in the first place, but the character has flaws that have informed a large part of the relationship. That's called writing realistic characters. Characters do things on this show that they shouldn't all the time. It has nothing to do with any agenda, and no one is telling you how to feel. You, on the other hand, are clearly making it known that we're creeps because we don't agree with you, however.

The comment about a person being evil because they're a woman was intended as a joke and plays on the fact that the Doctor doesn't understand human relationships and gender issues. If you honestly think that the Doctor thinks that women are evil, maybe you should watch a different program.

Just to clarify, I'm not calling you a creep. That was more directed at some commentary I saw from fans about "feminists need to shut up!". Unfortunately, a disturbing number of people think Rory is perfect and needs to control his slutty woman, so sorry if I don't want to celebrate seeing that on screen. There's a difference between recognizing character flaws and glorifying them. Too many people do the latter.


no one is telling you how to feel

Posters have told me to lighten up, that I'm just looking to be offended, and that I'm projecting onto it. I think that means telling me how to feel.


The comment about a person being evil because they're a woman was intended as a joke and plays on the fact that the Doctor doesn't understand human relationships and gender issues. If you honestly think that the Doctor thinks that women are evil, maybe you should watch a different program.

Yeah. Totally not telling me how to feel. It was a joke! It can't be sexist if it's supposed to be funny! Why is The Doctor suddenly so clueless that he thinks womanhood is evil. He's never done that before, and if he doesn't think that, why the heck did he even say it?

[Larime Taylor]

Just to clarify, I'm not calling you a creep. That was more directed at some commentary I saw from fans about "feminists need to shut up!". Unfortunately, a disturbing number of people think Rory is perfect and needs to control his slutty woman, so sorry if I don't want to celebrate seeing that on screen. There's a difference between recognizing character flaws and glorifying them. Too many people do the latter.

Seeing as no one here has said that, or even anything remotely close, it's probably not necessary to go throwing the word creep around. What people who watch the show choose to do has nothing to do with the writers, and allowing what fandom does to dictate what they write is entirely unfair. Just because those people think that doesn't mean that the writers do, and doesn't mean they're glorifying them. I'm sorry, but that's the real stretch. Because a few assholes say stupid things on the Internet doesn't make everything that happens in the show a justification of their opinion. You seem to have a problem with a segment of fandom - justifiably so - but want to hold the show responsible for their existence. There are going to be people like that in any fandom.


Yeah. Totally not telling me how to feel.

Nope. I was suggesting you watch a different show. There is a subtle difference there. You're clearly upset by things that happen on the show, so I'm wondering why you continue to watch it.


It was a joke! It can't be sexist if it's supposed to be funny! Why is The Doctor suddenly so clueless that he thinks womanhood is evil. He's never done that before, and if he doesn't think that, why the heck did he even say it?

Maybe you haven't noticed, but this Doctor is absolutely lacking in tact, manners, and the ability to think before he speaks. He's constantly getting himself in trouble by saying the wrong thing. Now I don't happen to believe that he actually thinks that all women are evil, and I think if you asked the writers they would tell you that no, that was never meant to be taken at face value. In many ways, he's like a little boy - girls have cooties! - but I hardly think that makes him a misogynist. It makes him exactly what they've been trying to make him be from the start, a very old man trapped in a very young body and trying to work out those contradictions.

[Suffering Sappho]

Seeing as no one here has said that, or even anything remotely close, it's probably not necessary to go throwing the word creep around. What people who watch the show choose to do has nothing to do with the writers, and allowing what fandom does to dictate what they write is entirely unfair. Just because those people think that doesn't mean that the writers do, and doesn't mean they're glorifying them. I'm sorry, but that's the real stretch. Because a few assholes say stupid things on the Internet doesn't make everything that happens in the show a justification of their opinion. You seem to have a problem with a segment of fandom - justifiably so - but want to hold the show responsible for their existence. There are going to be people like that in any fandom.



The thing is, Moffat does support it. He's seen in interviews and in those Doctor Who confidential things saying stuff about how out of control Amy is and that poor Rory has it so hard because he's in love with a controlling woman. In a recent interview he said Amy disrupts the plot and gets in the way of stories by being "naughty" and acting on her own. If you notice, both Amy and River's storylines start with them being in control and independent in their own lives and have reached a point where Amy needs permission to hug someone and River became an archeologist just to find the Doctor and has pretty much based her entire life around him . These are what Moffat considers to be story arcs and character growth for the women. I feel like he only set them up as strong women to reveal that they are dependent on men after all. He's quoted saying something similar about women needing men to survive and trying to get married as soon as possible.

There are lots of things I do enjoy about Doctor Who. I thought the anitbodies were hilarious this episode "You will feel a slight tingling sensation and then death.", but I could enjoy the show a lot easier if those little digs about women being evil were left out. He could have said anything and gotten the same effect. "She has curly hair", "She likes guns", "She's obsessed with Hitler for some reason." Heck, I might have accepted it if he literally said "And she has cooties" because that would at least connect it to the poison .

[t.c.johnson]

Amy doesn't need permission to hug anybody. The Doctor wanted to know if it was ok with Rory. This is being respectful of a relationship.

[Larime Taylor]

I'm sorry, but I think there's a huge difference between some of the things that can be selectively taken out of interviews and using them to justify the idea that the guy supports people calling Amy a slut and telling feminists to shut up. There's a vast chasm between the two. Do I agree with everything he says in interviews? No. But I also don't think it's fair to try to tie him to the most extreme element of fandom and say it's all his fault, or try to build an elaborate conspiracy to reveal that strong women are really dependent, after all. You're ignoring the fact that all of this dependency goes both ways. Anytime that River calls, he goes rushing after her. He calls Rory Mr. Pond. River is easily the most dangerous character in the series at the moment, to the point that the Daleks are afraid of her. How many times has Amy saved his ass? Or River? RTD wrote female companions with the exception of Donna that did nothing but pine away for the Doctor like lovesick teenagers and got catty all the time. That shit bothered me. Moffat has given us several strong female characters that make excellent role models and are quite capable of doing things on their own. I'm just not buying the misogynist angle.

[Jim Ritchey]

I haven't seen anyone here confusing feminism with misandry--we're pretty 'lefty' 'round these parts. It DOES remind me of the Woody Allen scene in Annie Hall when he's going on about someone at a restaurant saying "Did Jew Eat?", though. Human relationships are complicated, and realistic depiction of them aren't always perfectly 'PC'. If you're traumatized, or dislike large groups of people you perceive as oppressors, and as a result are focused on finding misogyny, racism, etc., in media, you're sure as HELL gonna find it. When you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Hell, I could make a convincing argument that The Doctor (as written) is racist and hates male humans, as well--The Doctor treated Mickey Smith like shit, much as he treated Rory at the start. And hiring Matt Smith instead of Idris Elba (which would have been OUTSTANDING!) was OBVIOUSLY because Moffat belongs to some secretive 'White Power' movement.

[Stressfactor]

Actually Jim it was Patterson Joseph not Idris Elba who was rumored for the role. And Joseph is another awesome actor. A lot of people pointed back to his role in Neil Gaiman's "Neverwhere" as proof that he would have made an awesome Doctor.


As for the poison in the kiss, as I've said above that actually did tie in -- only it tied into religious imagery.

In the the story of the Garden of Gesthemane Judas tells the soldiers to arrest the person he kisses. He then greets Jesus with a kiss. The soldiers arrest Jesus and this leads, eventually, to his death.

The poison comes from the "Judas Tree".

In fact, it is because of this that the term "Judas" has come to mean traitor and/or backstabber.

River does pretty much stab the Doctor in the back with this but more to the point she also stabs herself in the back a bit because her actions are kind of a betrayal of the woman she WILL be. It's our getting to see her life in reverse and out of order that lets us see this. It's also what lets Amy see it.

[Larime Taylor]

I did notice, and haven't seen anyone else comment on it yet, that Mels being black suggests that it is entirely plausible for the doctor to be black in a future regeneration. Moffat basically answered that question pretty cleanly.

[Stressfactor]

I did notice, and haven't seen anyone else comment on it yet, that Mels being black suggests that it is entirely plausible for the doctor to be black in a future regeneration. Moffat basically answered that question pretty cleanly.

"The Doctor's Wife" also indicated that Time Lords could change their sex as well -- meaning the Doctor could also be played by a woman.

Moffat also probably fixed that pesky 13 lives problem here as well.

Also interesting was River's comment that she was "concentrating on a dress size" -- which indicates a potential control over the regeneration process.


This has been something of an arguement among fans. Non-canon material has indicated that if a Time Lord forces a regeneration then they can control it but if it happens under duress then they can't. But then the 10th Doctor to the 11th would seem to give lie to that because the 10th Doctor started the process and obviously had plenty of time to control things if he wanted to but still ended up not ginger as he seemed to want to.

[Logos]

"The Doctor's Wife" also indicated that Time Lords could change their sex as well -- meaning the Doctor could also be played by a woman.

Moffat also probably fixed that pesky 13 lives problem here as well.

Also interesting was River's comment that she was "concentrating on a dress size" -- which indicates a potential control over the regeneration process.

This has been something of an arguement among fans. Non-canon material has indicated that if a Time Lord forces a regeneration then they can control it but if it happens under duress then they can't. But then the 10th Doctor to the 11th would seem to give lie to that because the 10th Doctor started the process and obviously had plenty of time to control things if he wanted to but still ended up not ginger as he seemed to want to.

It's in Sarah Jane Adventures. Few different episodes. Doctor says sex can change (The Corsair did, apparently) as well as human racial groups, and there was even the hint of possibly alien race appearance (say, looking more slitheen (eww) than human).

Doctor also said there's 507 possible regenerations. (RTD actually gave sort of a soliloquy about it.)


When they came [to America] to launch The Eleventh Hour, I went along to this screening in LA and journalists put their hands up, and one of the first questions was, "What will happen when he reaches the thirteenth regeneration?" There's a fascinating academic study to be made out of how some facts stick and some don't – how Jon Pertwee's Doctor could say he was thousands of years old, and no-one listens to that, and yet someone once says he’s only got thirteen lives, and it becomes lore. It's really interesting, I think. That's why I’m quite serious that that 507 thing won't stick, because the 13 is too deeply ingrained in the public consciousness. But how? How did that get there? It’s fascinating, it's really weird. Anyway, that'll be my book in my retirement!

I've always found the idea the 10th was in control of his regeneration a bit off. He had radiation poisoning. Unless it's a super-massive dose, that doesn't kill humans (and by stretch, Time-Lords) instantly. Therefore, he got poisoned. Then he went and got his "reward". When the radiation began to say, melt his internal organs and threatened his life, that's when the regen started. Delayed like real radiation sickness death ("the walking dead" as it's sometimes called) but definitely not in control.

[Martin J]

What? So if bad things happen in the world I can't question a line in a TV show I find to be problematic? Must have missed that memo.

I don't know if I'm just not saying this well, but the fact that the Doctor (and apparently Moffat and the fans) care more about the fact that Rory has jealousy issues than what Amy thinks or feels about anything is creepy. Yes, I'm sure she would have told Rory off if he didn't "give permission", but the problem is he shouldn't have even been asked in the first place!

And the hug line isn't the only one I mentioned and not the one I'm most upset about. I also pointed out the line where the Doctor explains how a person is EVIL by pointing out that they are A WOMAN. Along with Moffat's behavior in interviews it points to a pretty gross attitude towards women. You don't have to agree but don't tell me how to feel about it.

I'm done with this thread. Frankly I'm surprised to see this kind of attitude on this forum.

I do think you are getting hung up on the character and not the writer.

Looking back at the series he has written Coupling, Joking Apart, Jeykll, Press Gang with the exception of Joking Apart the best rounded character in each has been a strong independent woman. Susan in coupling and Julia Swahalia's character in Press Gang have been some of the best written female characters on British tv.

The Doctors "A Woman" thing is only ever directed at River, he may not know exactly what she has done but he knows she has done great things. By going "A Woman" to her it winds her up, if your a mythical godlike creature and suddenly this woman turns up knowing all about you and you knw nothing about her you get your petty shots in when you can.

As for Rory's insecurity it has been well played out for 2 seasons if you are unable to pick that up, it is on you. Amy has made her choice it was him, we know it, the Doctor knows it, Amy knows it but Rory has yet to come to terms with it. Which will probably happen just before River kills him given the way they have been building up Rory as a badass.

[t.c.johnson]

Also interesting was River's comment that she was "concentrating on a dress size" -- which indicates a potential control over the regeneration process.


This has been something of an arguement among fans. Non-canon material has indicated that if a Time Lord forces a regeneration then they can control it but if it happens under duress then they can't. But then the 10th Doctor to the 11th would seem to give lie to that because the 10th Doctor started the process and obviously had plenty of time to control things if he wanted to but still ended up not ginger as he seemed to want to.

There is some in-canon support for this as well. Remember Romana's rather silly regeneration where she was picking different body types.

[t.c.johnson]

I really don't think it is Rory that River Song is going to kill.

Whomever River Song killed she is showing little remorse. She treats her prison sentence like a vacation resort, taking the free meals and leaving whenever she feels like it.

If she eventually kills her father, she would probably keep herself in prison as punishment. She wouldn't be taking birthdays off to see Stevie Wonder in concert.

Now, if she helped the doctor fake his death to escape some enemies and stays in prison for appearances...that makes a lot more sense for her character.

[Danimal]

Rereading all of the hug stuff and watching the episode again, I understand how there is a sexist interpretation of it, but I honestly don't believe that was the intention. We've seen that in the past Amy has thrown herself at the Doctor, spent her entire childhood talking about how wonderful he is, and on more than one occasion Rory has been seen to be uncomfortable with Amy giving the Doctor a long hug based on all of this knowledge. I read the permission part as an in-joke between friends. Rory and the Doctor are finally comfortable with each other and Amy is the wife to one and the best friend to the other. Yes, the word permission does have connotations, but I honestly think it was meant to be a throw away line, not a window into Moffat's true feelings about woman. As I acknowledged earlier, some of his other comments have been troublesome in the need to point out the attractiveness of guest actresses on the show and I'm not going to make any excuses or justifications for those.

As far as the comment about women being evil, as others have noted, I think that was meant only to show the Doctor being tactless and curmudgeonly, not to portray him as an outright sexist. It seemed that this episode was calling back to William Hartnell's Doctor quite a bit, the portrayal of whom was typically seen as the most crotchety, sinister, and dark. A lot of people compare Smith's portrayal to Pertwee, but it seems like the stories are setting him up as more like a mix of Hartnell and McCoy, in terms of the rudeness and the long term schemes.

Also, even though the Doctor is the hero of the show, Moffat especially has taken great pains to show this particular Doctor as quite flawed. Moreso than most other Doctor's he does not understand humans all that well (see The Lodger for a great example of this). He cares about them, but they confuse him. He also has much more of an ego than the last couple of versions. 9 and 10 held themselves in high regard, but 11 takes it to a new level. Television has had any number of deeply flawed leading characters, many of whom were racist, sexist, homophobic, etc - see All in the Family, NYPD Blue, the Sopranos - but this does not mean the creators of those shows nor their writers were attempting to convey these messages. Often times, racism, sexism, and the like are portrayed as negative or cautionary examples, not examples to be emulated.

At the end of the day, though, it comes down to interpretation, which of course is never objective, nor should it be. This is, after all, a work of imaginative fiction, not a presentation of scientific data, and thus will be read any number of ways. While I don't personally agree with Sappho's reading of the episode, I understand where it comes from.

[Danimal]

I really don't think it is Rory that River Song is going to kill.

Whomever River Song killed she is showing little remorse. She treats her prison sentence like a vacation resort, taking the free meals and leaving whenever she feels like it.

If she eventually kills her father, she would probably keep herself in prison as punishment. She wouldn't be taking birthdays off to see Stevie Wonder in concert.

Now, if she helped the doctor fake his death to escape some enemies and stays in prison for appearances...that makes a lot more sense for her character.

That was my initial theory, but now I'm quite unsure of it. Mostly, because how much do we really ever see River and Rory interact for him to be the "greatest man she's ever known," or whatever her exact phrasing is? In Time of the Angels/Flesh and Stone, she does seem to show some small amount of guilt/remorse, but likely nothing that would come from killing her father or the Doctor.

I need to go and rewatch Silence in the Library to see exactly what she says to 10 when she first meets him. I can't remember if she says anything regarding having seen him in other regenerations, besides obviously 11. I would be kind of surprised if the character is kept around after Matt Smith, but who knows? I get the feeling that Smith may go longer than three seasons if it's up to him. As much as I love Amy and Rory, I think he will need some new companions at some point. I sort of get the feeling that we may be nearing the end of their time with the Doctor anyway.

[t.c.johnson]

I need to go and rewatch Silence in the Library to see exactly what she says to 10 when she first meets him. I can't remember if she says anything regarding having seen him in other regenerations, besides obviously 11.

One thing to keep in mind, Moffatt was hoping to have Tenant around for the first season of his run. Tenant wanted River Song to interact with 10 more in his first season and then regenerate them into somebody else. Tenant not wanting to say around past RTD leaving the series threw a monkey wrench in those plans. So whatever plans Moffatt had when he wrote Silence in the LIbrary has since changes.

I assume that 10 and Song did have other adventures together, we just never saw them in the TV series.

[Corrina]

Ugh, sorry about the Donna/Sarah Jane confusion. I'm blaming the hurricane.

As for the Doctor being killed, we now have 2 bona-fide duplicates of the Doctor that can pass as him. There's the one made of Flesh, which the Doctor indicated might survive, and now we have the abandoned spaceship/Amybot in this episode which also gives off human life readings.

[t.c.johnson]

Ugh, sorry about the Donna/Sarah Jane confusion. I'm blaming the hurricane.

As for the Doctor being killed, we now have 2 bona-fide duplicates of the Doctor that can pass as him. There's the one made of Flesh, which the Doctor indicated might survive, and now we have the abandoned spaceship/Amybot in this episode which also gives off human life readings.

And we only have the word of Canton Delaware III that was really the Doctor and that he is really dead. (How many of him can there be? Well, three I suppose.)

We already know that he is a liar and one of his specialties is faking people's deaths.

[Danimal]

And we only have the word of Canton Delaware III that was really the Doctor and that he is really dead. (How many of him can there be? Well, three I suppose.)

We already know that he is a liar and one of his specialties is faking people's deaths.

And now he is equipped with knowledge of the event, a date, time, and location. So yeah, he's all set.

[JKCarrier]

So those army clerics...were they a part of the silence religion?

My pet theory is that...
The Headless Monks are Silence who removed their heads to avoid being "killed on sight".

[Danimal]

My pet theory is that...
The Headless Monks are Silence who removed their heads to avoid being "killed on sight".

I like that!

[Keith P.]

My pet theory is that...
The Headless Monks are Silence who removed their heads to avoid being "killed on sight".

I don't know if that holds water, since the Headless Monks recruit people with normal human heads, IE: when they chopped the head off that fat gay guy.

Or was it the skinny gay guy?

One of them.

[Larime Taylor]

I don't know if that holds water, since the Headless Monks recruit people with normal human heads, IE: when they chopped the head off that fat gay guy.

Or was it the skinny gay guy?

One of them.

Are you saying that all gay people look alike? :Oops:

[Shurato2099]

Just the short-tall-fat-skinny ones. :)

[Danimal]

Are you saying that all gay people look alike? :Oops:

All the ones I've known have heads, torsos,facial features, and even some limbs. Who can tell them apart?!?

[bert]

Are you saying that all gay people look alike? :Oops:

without their heads, a lot of em do!

[t.c.johnson]

Damn religious nuts didn't want the gay man giving head.


Somebody was going to go there...

[Keith P.]

without their heads, a lot of em do!

I'm sending the police to dig up your back yard.

[Spiffy]

Ugh, sorry about the Donna/Sarah Jane confusion. I'm blaming the hurricane.

As for the Doctor being killed, we now have 2 bona-fide duplicates of the Doctor that can pass as him. There's the one made of Flesh, which the Doctor indicated might survive, and now we have the abandoned spaceship/Amybot in this episode which also gives off human life readings.
We also have at least one other Doctor "clone" sitting in an alternate universe with Rose Tyler (although yeah, it won't be that one, since they closed the book on him for good in terms of the show).

[Shurato2099]

And he only had the one heart and likely can't regenerate so he'd be stuck as Tennant. :)

[Spiffy]

Yeah I forgot that the Doctor has to look a certain way and not simply be the Doctor for this one.

[Flamebird]

From Dragon*Con:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhlmNkk5r0k&feature=player_embedded#!

If only Matt Smith had been in the audience. :cool:

[Shurato2099]

Sysvester McCoy is an absolute trip from every panel of his I've seen to date. He didn't start out as the most fan-friendly Doctor but we've just about broken him in. :)

[t.c.johnson]

Night Terrors: Not a bad episode. Not a great episode either.

I felt like it really stole too much from Fear Her. I know Doctor Who steals from other things but from itself?

The problem is people are disappearing to appear in a child's drawing/child's dollhouse.

The problem is cause by a lost alien child that bonds with a girl\is a boy who is a lost alien child.

The evil thing in the closet/cuboard is just a manifistation of the child's fears.

The day is eventually won by the worried parent convincing the child they are not alone, giving the child the strength to face his\her fears

Granted, Night Terrors is a better done episode but couldn't fully enjoy it with the feeling they are repeating themselves.

[JBK405]

Sorry to drag the conversation back a few seasons, but I just remembered an old gripe I had from season three and I really needed to whine about it.

In Family of Blood, which don't get me wrong I really enjoyed, was anybody else amazingly pissed at Joan at the end of the episode, when she sanctimoniously asked the Doctor if anybody would have died if he hadn't come to this village, then told him to shove off before he could say anything? Normally I'd side with her, except that the answer to her question is YES! Yes, people still would have died if the Doctor had not come to this town. They would have died somewhere esle, but the Family of Blood still would have killed people, possibly even more people. Is that all she cares about, whether or not she knows the people who died? Is the only criteria for "Worthy of life" being from the same town? Is that the kind of person she is?

Now, a very valid criticism to make would have been that the Doctor decided to hide at all instead of killing the Family right then and there, since he wound up killing them anyway and all his mercy to them did was allow them to kill some innocents before being stopped, but that's not what she said. She didn't bring up his mercy, she brought up the fact that he came here and people died, when people would have died no matter where he went.

I understand the point that the writer was trying to make, the way death follows the Doctor around, but the fact of the matter is this was a straight Rhetorical Question Blunder: She's looking for the moral high ground with her question, but her question has none, since she's expecting "no" and the answer is actually "yes."

It's a key scene of the episode and it's wrong.

[J. Wilson]

I liked "Night Terrors" overall. Decent episode of the stand alone variety.

One quibble, I couldn't hear what the children's voices were singing at the end. I heard them say "Not even for the Doctor" but not the lines leading up to that.

[t.c.johnson]

I missed the first half but the second goes:


Tock tock
Goes the Clock
Even for the Doctor

[JBK405]

I also only got the "even for the Doctor" part, I couldn't understand anything else.

To me, though I certainly got the Fear Her vibe, it seemed more reminiscent of old Twilight Zone. Wishing bad things into the cornfield and all that. Bull Mumy would be proud.

[sk716]

Night Terrors: Not a bad episode. Not a great episode either.

I felt like it really stole too much from Fear Her. I know Doctor Who steals from other things but from itself?

The problem is people are disappearing to appear in a child's drawing/child's dollhouse.

The problem is cause by a lost alien child that bonds with a girl\is a boy who is a lost alien child.

The evil thing in the closet/cuboard is just a manifistation of the child's fears.

The day is eventually won by the worried parent convincing the child they are not alone, giving the child the strength to face his\her fears

Granted, Night Terrors is a better done episode but couldn't fully enjoy it with the feeling they are repeating themselves.

I noticed the Fear Her parallels as well, but better overall and a perfect example of the kind of story that has the kid peering over the arm of the sofa. So, really, exactly what a Doctor Who episode should be.

[Stressfactor]

Episode writer Mark Gatiss apparently released the text of the nursery rhyme:


Tick tock goes the clock
And what now shall we play?
Tick tock goes the clock
Now Summer's gone away?

Tick tock goes the clock
And what then shall we see?
Tick tock until the day
That thou shalt marry me.

Tick tock goes the clock
And all the years they fly.
Tick tock and all too soon
You and I must die.

Tick tock goes the clock
He cradled her and he rocked her.
Tick tock goes the clock
Even for the Doctor.


Hmmmmm..... some clues buried in there?




And I thought it was hilarious that Rory thought he was dead again.

[Shurato2099]

Mostly I took the rhyme as a creepy reminder that the Doctor is on countdown until the day at Lake Silencio.

[Stressfactor]

Okay, in all the nearly 50 years of Doctor Who history I think that was the most romantic story the show has ever done.

I laughed, I cried, I yelled out "Oh my God!" several times along with "you BASTARD!!" Seriously, in all the many, many episodes I've watched of the series I've never really thought of the Doctor as a complete and utter bastard.... until now.

KUDOS!!!!

[Spiffy]

I was somewhat shocked that Old Amy didn't do the typical "sacrificing herself" thing, then again her speech to Rory was practically the same thing I guess. I thought it would take a more typical road like Old Amy jumping in front of a poison dart for Rory or something like that.


Okay, in all the nearly 50 years of Doctor Who history I think that was the most romantic story the show has ever done.

I laughed, I cried, I yelled out "Oh my God!" several times along with "you BASTARD!!" Seriously, in all the many, many episodes I've watched of the series I've never really thought of the Doctor as a complete and utter bastard.... until now.

KUDOS!!!!
Oh I can recall a few other episodes where he's made decisions which seemed just as cold-hearted (but necessary). And certainly other ones where he's lied to do so.

[Danimal]

They really do seem to be getting a lot of mileage out of the Doctor being a liar and I love it. The cool thing is, it totally makes sense because the older Amy would be a total reminder of all the times he's let Amy down.

[Spiffy]

Don't think you need to spoiler tag something in a topic which is already spoiler tagged overall in the thread title. I mean unless it was a spoiler about an UNAIRED episode--that would be something completely different.

[Corrina]

Technically, Stress' post was a spoiler for those of us in the United States who didn't watch it for another couple of hours.

I would ask that maybe those who are lucky enough to get it somewhat earlier spoiler tag it. Please? :)

[Corrina]

Technically, Stress' post was a spoiler for those of us in the United States who didn't watch it for another couple of hours.

I would ask that maybe those who are lucky enough to get it somewhat earlier spoiler tag it. Please? :)

[JohnBehling]

Oops... Double post (sorry)

[JohnBehling]

Absolutely loved tonight's episode. It may be one of my all time favorites.
Really good stuff and possibly Karen Gillan's finest performance yet.

[Alan Lynch]

Glorious episode. Rory is fast becoming my favourite character on the show, but all 3 cast members put it excellent work here.

[JohnBehling]

Glorious episode. Rory is fast becoming my favourite character on the show,

He's a great character! I've enjoyed him since "The Eleventh Hour" & like him better and better as time goes on (and back, and wobbly)!

[Danimal]

I was just sticking with spoiler tags for now for time zone considerations and DVR. I figure tomorrow will be fair game :)

[t.c.johnson]

Rory is slightly behind Jamie as my favorite companion.

But this episode was Karen Gillian (sp?). It was her best acting yet.

[Charles RB]

That ENDING! Bloody hell.

[The Xenos]

Wow. I was actually getting flashbacks to a crazy post singularity cyberpunk manga I love that has future versions of characters popping in and out in an area where time is in flux. Plus the creepy shiny robot enmies and the ninja Amy also remidned me of it.

[Stressfactor]

Technically, Stress' post was a spoiler for those of us in the United States who didn't watch it for another couple of hours.

I would ask that maybe those who are lucky enough to get it somewhat earlier spoiler tag it. Please? :)

I was careful to keep my comments general and not give any plot details away.

Any of my comments could technically have applied to any number of episodes in the past.

I didn't think I needed to spoiler tag something unless I gave away plot details. At least that's been the rules on other boards.

[Stressfactor]

And yeah, Rory is awesome. But Amy really steals the show.

Her soliloquy on the nature of beauty was just.... amazing.

[Flamebird]

It seemed another throwback to an earlier episode; when we find out he left Capt. Jack on purpose.
They really seem to be going out of their way to show he can be quite the bastard, hiding behind the persona of the goofy old man-child.
I really don't see how Amy and Rory can stick around after this though. He's done to much to them too many times and most of it was a direct result of something he caused.

[J. Wilson]

Just great acting from Karen Gillan. In a just world, the end of the episode with Old Amy at the Tardis door, or when she was talking about Rory and the rock band, is her Emmy clip.

[Shurato2099]

Just watched it. Fantastic acting by Karen Gillan. Heavy, dramatic episode ... I'm glad that I watched it, but I don't think that it is an ep that I'm likely to re-watch.

[DarkKnightJared]

That was a hell of an engrossing episode--Gillan did pull out a hell of a performance, and she looked utterly badass fighting all those robots with the samurai sword. :D

An interesting thing...The Doctor was a bit of a bastard here with what happens--he probably did try to fix things so that two Amys can exist, but all the shit breaking in the Tardis made it impossible, and he's had to make FAR worse choices than this when you get down to it--but...I can't help but wonder if he's going to use what he learned here to try to stop his own death.

[Corrina]

I was careful to keep my comments general and not give any plot details away.

Any of my comments could technically have applied to any number of episodes in the past.

I didn't think I needed to spoiler tag something unless I gave away plot details. At least that's been the rules on other boards.

Well, you called the Doctor a bastard, which pretty much clued me into exactly what would happen with the two Amys. :)

It was just a request. Next time, I'll stay out of the thread until my Saturday night airing is over.

[Patrick Gerard]

That was a hell of an engrossing episode--Gillan did pull out a hell of a performance, and she looked utterly badass fighting all those robots with the samurai sword. :D

An interesting thing...The Doctor was a bit of a bastard here with what happens--he probably did try to fix things so that two Amys can exist, but all the shit breaking in the Tardis made it impossible, and he's had to make FAR worse choices than this when you get down to it--but...I can't help but wonder if he's going to use what he learned here to try to stop his own death.

Here's an interesting thought: if he does, will it wipe out the current Amy and Rory and River Song altogether?

[Shurato2099]

Well, remember, all he has to do is stop the -actuality- of his death, not the appearance of it. Everything will -appear- as we saw it, but he'll have some kind of an out. Sleight of Time, as it were.

[Patrick Gerard]

Well, remember, all he has to do is stop the -actuality- of his death, not the appearance of it. Everything will -appear- as we saw it, but he'll have some kind of an out. Sleight of Time, as it were.

I agree in principle and thought that's where we were headed but this episode showed us an alternative form of altering the future/destiny where the appearance doesn't remain intact.

By the way, while I think it would be tantamount to a warcrime to ever do anything that would diminish the lovely Karen Gillian's screentime...

I feel personally like, from a story POV, Amy and Rory and River Song may need a break so the Doctor can do fantastic things that don't revolve around them.

Please don't hate me for saying this. I would probably pay for a daily video of Karen Gillian reading the phonebook. I just think the universe is revolving a bit tightly around the companions and that they're stealing the Doctor's thunder a bit under Moffat.

In fact... My preference would be if they introduced a new companion: Doctor No. 12. I'm not suggesting they replace Matt Smith. I'm actually more inclined to think they should just do a series long, somewhat more introspective, Doctor-centric take by making Doctor No. 12 the companion to No. 11. And that the real novelty would be if they staged it so that No. 12 ONLY EVER appeared as a companion to Matt Smith's Doctor and, when Matt Smith steps down, skip ahead to No. 13 by having 11 and 12 regenerate at the same time, in the same episode. So 11 becomes 12. 12 becomes 13. And 12 goes back to the first time we see him, leaving only 13, with 12 being PURELY a supporting character for Matt Smith and never actually headlining the show. I think it would be snazzy to see Valeyard brought in somehow via this.

[The Xenos]

In fact... My preference would be if they introduced a new companion: Doctor No. 12. I'm not suggesting they replace Matt Smith. I'm actually more inclined to think they should just do a series long, somewhat more introspective, Doctor-centric take by making Doctor No. 12 the companion to No. 11. And that the real novelty would be if they staged it so that No. 12 ONLY EVER appeared as a companion to Matt Smith's Doctor and, when Matt Smith steps down, skip ahead to No. 13 by having 11 and 12 regenerate at the same time, in the same episode. So 11 becomes 12. 12 becomes 13. And 12 goes back to the first time we see him, leaving only 13, with 12 being PURELY a supporting character for Matt Smith and never actually headlining the show. I think it would be snazzy to see Valeyard brought in somehow via this. Of course... what if... this already has happened?! The Nurse is actually The Doctor. Wait.. no.. then he'd be marrying his own daughter. Well.. not that such a thing hasn't happened already (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/01/05/who_marriage/).

[DarkKnightJared]

I don't think I got what you're saying, Gerard, because it made my head hurt, but that could be interesting, sure.

I do think that Rory as The Doctor might not be all that impossible--I think that line along the lines of, "you're trying to turn me into you" was put there for a reason...

[Patrick Gerard]

I don't think I got what you're saying, Gerard, because it made my head hurt, but that could be interesting, sure.

I do think that Rory as The Doctor might not be all that impossible--I think that line along the lines of, "you're trying to turn me into you" was put there for a reason...

Hm. That raises a fun point.

Time Lords can control their regeneration up to a point. Have we ever seen one (even in the books) copy a real person's appearance precisely and take their place?

For example, there're more recently been talk about John Simm coming back. Assuming he got his hands on some regenerations, could he take a good look at Amy Pond and decide he wanted to regenerate into her perfect twin? (Heck, the running motif seems to be duplicate Doctors and Amies and Rory dying)

I'm just going to toss that out there to be wacky: The Master manages to build a TARDIS but gets killed. He regenerates into an exact double of Amy Pond and escapes in his TARDIS. Suddenly, you have the knowledge that there is a psychotic time lord with a TARDIS who looks just like Amy. As a result, the independent Amy can never be allowed to slip out of the Doctor or Rory's sight because even a few seconds' discrepancy could allow the Master to take her place. See, then I'd have the Master show up in a totally different form after having messed with the Doctor and Amy's relationship thoroughly and left the Doctor so suspicious of anyone who looks like Amy that he doesn't see him coming.

[DarkKnightJared]

Okay, first off, let me say how happy I am to hear that Simm/The Master might be coming back. I thought he was great in that role and, if I look at it objectively, End of Time might not have been the best end point for that character.

And in Let's Kill Hitler, we did see River give Doctor all her regenerations to heal him, so who's to say that he couldn't do the same for Rory?

[Patrick Gerard]

Okay, first off, let me say how happy I am to hear that Simm/The Master might be coming back. I thought he was great in that role and, if I look at it objectively, End of Time might not have been the best end point for that character.

And in Let's Kill Hitler, we did see River give Doctor all her regenerations to heal him, so who's to say that he couldn't do the same for Rory?

Moffat said recently that he doesn't think the public has really accepted the 367 regenerations or whatever from The Sarah Jane Adventures, that 13 has stuck in the public consciousness and he may end up reverting to that, either explained or not, just because he feels that's what stuck with people.

[DarkKnightJared]

Maybe...but then that would mean that there would have to be only two more Doctors until they either end the show forever or do a hard reboot. I wouldn't be surprised if they did some handwavium to fix that. If they need the 13 number, they could do what Willamham did during his brief run on JSA with Wildcat. Over there, they amped up his "nine lives" thing as an explanation to how he lived so long to "you have to kill him concretely nine times in under nine seconds for it to work." I could see them doing that--in order to kill the Doctor, you have to kill him 13 times in a row.

[Linkara]

I say that they'll find a way to give him new lives - after all, the Timelords figured out a way to give the Master a new life cycle (said so himself), plus they offered it to the Master in the Five Doctors.

[Patrick Gerard]

Maybe...but then that would mean that there would have to be only two more Doctors until they either end the show forever or do a hard reboot. I wouldn't be surprised if they did some handwavium to fix that. If they need the 13 number, they could do what Willamham did during his brief run on JSA with Wildcat. Over there, they amped up his "nine lives" thing as an explanation to how he lived so long to "you have to kill him concretely nine times in under nine seconds for it to work." I could see them doing that--in order to kill the Doctor, you have to kill him 13 times in a row.

I think a part of it may be, there's some character emotions and beats you can play with if he thinks 13 is it... and it's different than End of Time or the current Doctor's Death arc because it's natural and it isn't an ordained death but the possibility of a run where he's on number 13 and knows the whole time that he can't regenerate. I also think it lets you play with the idea that he's chosen to get younger and younger as a rejection of that, each incarnation younger than the last in his case when that may well be something that is a bit socially deviant on his part.

[Patrick Gerard]

And of course he'd cheat it. But I think on a certain level, they have to show him cheat it. It will play better.

I think that may be what Moffat's getting at when he says that the public still clings to the 13 regenerations: that he's going to actually have to pit the Doctor up against that because people haven't forgotten it or accepted the competing ideas.

I think that gets into how Doctor Who continuity (and, really, comic continuity in a pre-Bronze Age DC, pre-Silver Age Marvel sense) works.

It's fueled by what people like and believe and remember. Something being shown doesn't obligate you to address it... but something popular and memorable does. You're writing in pencil but anything written heavily enough can't be erased, even though most things can be.

[Kingsmythe]

Hm. That raises a fun point.

Time Lords can control their regeneration up to a point. Have we ever seen one (even in the books) copy a real person's appearance precisely and take their place?



Take their place? Not that I know of. Copy? Yes. Romana I regenerated into Romana II and copied the appearence of the Princess that had so impressed her in the Key to Time.

[t.c.johnson]

Hm. That raises a fun point.

Time Lords can control their regeneration up to a point. Have we ever seen one (even in the books) copy a real person's appearance precisely and take their place?

Too their place? No. But Romana copied Princess Astra's appearance precisely.

[t.c.johnson]

Spoilers for next week's episode, God Complex.

We know that next week they are going to visit a hotel where each room has somebody's worse nightmare.

I love how in next week's cast list we have " Dafydd Emyr — PE Teacher".

Gee, i wonder whose worse nightmare that is..... ;)

[Flamebird]

Okay, I know who all the characters are(well, still not sure who's in the spacesuit),
but what the heck is with the pyramid?
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/5614/drwhopyramid1440.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/593/drwhopyramid1440.jpg/)

Think they are trying to "top" the Stonehenge thing?

[Danimal]

Very good episode this week. I'm really curious if that's actually the end of Amy and Rory as full-time companions. Obviously, we'll see them again, but I was kind of surprised to have it end like that.

[Stressfactor]

Little nods to the past in this one. There's some stuff that puts one in mind of "Curse of Fenric" and the Doctor even mentions the Nimon. The freakin' NIMON! Man, that story gets about as much hate as "nightmare of Eden" and "Timelash".

Anyway, things I really liked about this episode:

Now THAT is how you do corredor running. Instead of it feeling like filler it was used to amp up the tension and the disorientation. It also put one in mind of The Shining. Nice work that.

I liked that the story was carried by the actors and a lot of practical effects instead of special effects. Almost everything was done with costumes and camera tricks. It was effective and showed what can be done with very little budget if done right.

LOVED the eyes. So many close-ups on the eyes of the characters and it was just a little touch but it did so much.

Liked the little scene where the Doctor is talking to the monster but for once we can't understand the monster's language. It was, again, a nice touch at showing how alien and intelligent the Doctor is. The TARDIS isn't translating here this is all on the Doctor translating for himself.

The Doctor's 'Catch 22'. We've seen what he gets like when he tries to travel alone... it isn't a good thing. And yet he sees so clearly here that he puts his traveling companions in such danger and he cannot live with himself if he ends up with another death on his conscience. Also interesting that here he tries to do the honorable thing. This is pretty unique as far as companions leaving go. Many have left because they 'found something better' in their lives. Some left because they were forced to, and some have died but I think this is the first time that you have companions leaving not because they want to and not because they have to but because they come to a mutual agreement with the Doctor that maybe it's for the best. It's very bittersweet.

P.S., I also liked all the inversions. The Doctor admitting, as Rory once accused him, that he makes others a danger to themselves. Also, he was Amy's 'magical imaginary friend' but he implies to Rita that he's more like the bad stranger with candy which parents always warn their children about. He's the Pied Piper. And yet he can't seem to stop himself from making the offer to travel with him. Also, he tells Rita that "that's what grown ups are for" and yet in "The Eleventh Hour" he encouraged Amy not to grow up.

Also, the basically decent people here -- particularly Rita -- end up dying while the craven coward who is responsible for at least one death in hopes of saving his own skin manages to live. The Doctor has to face up to who and what he is and tell the truth about himself for once in order to save those who are left. And in the end the monster is as much a tragic figure as the innocent dead are.

[Linkara]

Very good episode this week. I'm really curious if that's actually the end of Amy and Rory as full-time companions. Obviously, we'll see them again, but I was kind of surprised to have it end like that.

I'm happy to report that they've signed on for the next season. This is temporary.

[Danimal]

I caught the Fenric connections as well. I was also reminded a little of the Mind Robber at first, two. I love that because the current Doctor does seem to have a bit of 2 and 7 in him.

Did anyone else think the clown's outfit looked a little like the 6th Doctor's wardrobe?

[Shurato2099]

Nah, wasn't colorful enough ...

[Stressfactor]

I'm happy to report that they've signed on for the next season. This is temporary.

Actually, though, no one is sure if that is a full season or if they're just going to do a couple of guest shots -- like Martha in series 4.

There are rumors that Amy and Rory will become more like 'the Doctor's Agents on Earth' and there will be a couple of episodes in which he enlists their aid but otherwise he'll have a new companion.

[Corrina]

On River Song, I was indifferent to her character because it seemed too over the top. She was just too....too, for lack of a better word. :)

Her regeneration episode this season changed my mind. They gave me a reason why she's so irreverent and knowledgeable. It's a nice touch of characterization that she kept the daredevil attitude from being a trained assassin, plus the wisecracks, and why she knows so much about everything, beyond that she encountered the doctor before. I supposed it's weird how knowing all this changes my mind, but there you go.

[DarkKnightJared]

I'm happy to report that they've signed on for the next season. This is temporary.

Yeah, I kinda figure that they're in a similar place as Rose, Martha, Donna, etc.--they'll be on Earth for a while, but they'll be bashed into the Doctor's path at some point.

EDIT: I think I found the most likely explanation for the Doctor's death in The Impossible Astronaut yet:


My personal opinion about The Doctor and his death? Let me explain.

In the Ganger episode, where the two Doctors are talking to Amy about stopping the crazy flesh monster, the Doctor mentions "It's possible for The Flesh to survive...." Now, this is a bluff for the fans, people thinking that somehow the Flesh doctor will survive the fight. I believe this is wrong. I believe this is Flesh Doctor saying this, the one who stayed behind, is the REAL DOCTOR.

The real Doctor did this for a few reasons

1. He heard Amy talking semi-about The Doctors Death and

2. He wanted the Flesh Doctor to experience his life. So, the Flesh Doctor goes off, enjoys his time and stuff with Amy and Rory....

with the little hints that it's the Flesh Doctor.... for the first there is in Night Terrors where he mentions "In the flesh". In this episode he drinks a cup of tea and is like "What is this?" then is like "Of course, it's tea" next at the episode start he is like "This is the most exiciting thing I've ever seen" Really? Really? The real Doctor must of seen better things, while The Flesh Doctor hasn't seen anything as exiciting like this before. Next is the apple, he eats the apple and looks like he is enjoying it, he didn't like the apple in "The Elventh Hour" so that makes me think it's The Flesh Doctor enjoying stuff, just like the cup of tea.

Next when he opens his door, he is like "Of course, of course it would be you" - His nightmare being himself. The nightmare that Amy and Rory find out that he is the Flesh Doctor, while most fans would think it's his nightmare of all the stuff he's done. Next point is, when The Beast is dying, he talks about "How something some old, death seems like a gift" and The Doctor seems to react strongly to this when the beast lets loose he wasn't talking about himself.

The Doctor, who is the Flesh Doctor, feels now, that his 'life' as the Doctor is full of sorrow, upset, hate and misery and that he now knows what the real Doctor has had to live with all these years. The flesh Doctor now feels death is an escape and that dying isn't so bad. Furthermore, this works because in this episode, Amy and Rory are finally left to live their life. If you remember the episode where The Doctor is killed, Amy and Rory have not seen the Doctor for awhile, thus, making it clear they have been living their life at home and so on. Also, if you remember, The Doctor says at the end of this episode "THis isn't the last you've seen of me"

Thus, the killer of The Doctor is the REAL Doctor. Hence the "Hello again" comment he makes. The Flesh Doctor is then burned, not to hide his DNA, but to hide he is a flesh ganger. So, the real Doctor is in the suit and the flesh doctor gets killed.

[Danimal]

I was just looking at IMDB's entry for the last episode of the season and it made our discussion above of the Curse of Fenric a whole lot more interesting.

[Shurato2099]

Which would be what, exactly? The last episode listed for this year has one cast member listed

[Danimal]

Which would be what, exactly? The last episode listed for this year has one cast member listed

Mark Gatiss is credited as Fenric in the episode.

[Kingsmythe]

I really liked it. I thought it was a great episode. I liked Rita, and had hopes she'd survive, but didn't think she would.

The ending kinda surprised me. No, it surprised me a LOT.

[Shurato2099]

Mark Gatiss is credited as Fenric in the episode.

Ah! Technically the next to last ep listed. The last on listed is entitled Episode #7.0 and only lists Matt Smith at this time.

[Alan Lynch]

Also remember that IMDB can be updated by anyone. Previous Doctors have been listed for series finales before, so I'd take any casting spoilers ith a pinch of salt. Unless it's been confirmed elsewhere.

[Danimal]

Also remember that IMDB can be updated by anyone. Previous Doctors have been listed for series finales before, so I'd take any casting spoilers ith a pinch of salt. Unless it's been confirmed elsewhere.

True. I think the fact that it mentions someone who's been associated with the show made me buy it, but I'm also gullible at times, lol.

[Flamebird]

What the. . .???
I don't even. . .
Was that really an hour long gay joke?!?!? :mistrust:

Best part though:

He wears a Stetson now

But who wants to smell like dust after rain? :roll:

[Stressfactor]

"You've redecorated. I don't like it."


Patrick Troughton reference!!! It warms my heart.



And Flamebird.... eh.... I don't know that I would have called it an "hour long gay joke" because there were also some pot-shots in there about guys not being 'natural caregivers' to their children and by turn women being natural born super-mommies. Also, looking at it from the flip side, you had a character who was asking if the two of them were married as if it were a normal thing and didn't bat an eye at the idea of a gay couple with a baby.

There were parts that were wince inducing but at least no one was going "Gay Marriage.... Ewwwwwww!!!"

[Suffering Sappho]

Matt Smith was great. I'm not sure what to make of the "partner" stuff? I mean, they did similar jokes when Donna was the companion so I saw it as a continuation of that, but probably not the best thing to do. I don't know. I can see why someone would have a problem with it, though.

OK, this popped into my head at the end of the episode (and I mentioned it in the Bendis thread), but did anyone think this was similar to another episode this season? Night Terrors. Doctor shows up when father is alone with son, and they are saved by the power of a father's love. When Mom gets home tell her nothing. (Extra weird in this case since Sophia knows who the Doctor is and probably would have believed him.

[Stressfactor]

I didn't see it so much as Sophie not believing Craig as Craig either wanting to have an adventure all his own that he could kind of keep and not share..... Or else he was afraid she would be mad at him for putting himself and their son in harm's way by chasing after the Doctor.

[Flamebird]

"You've redecorated. I don't like it."


Patrick Troughton reference!!! It warms my heart.



And Flamebird.... eh.... I don't know that I would have called it an "hour long gay joke" because there were also some pot-shots in there about guys not being 'natural caregivers' to their children and by turn women being natural born super-mommies. Also, looking at it from the flip side, you had a character who was asking if the two of them were married as if it were a normal thing and didn't bat an eye at the idea of a gay couple with a baby.

There were parts that were wince inducing but at least no one was going "Gay Marriage.... Ewwwwwww!!!"

That was the part that made it a great gay joke.
They weren't making fun of people being gay, but of the two guys not thinking it might look that way to outsiders.
Loved the redecorated line. Especially the whole; "No, we moved", part.

Also, I now demand a Cybermat for Christmas!

[t.c.johnson]

I am disappointed my wife is not going for Stormageddeon Johnson.


I do, however, live the redesigned cybermats! Especially those teeth!

[t.c.johnson]

That was the part that made it a great gay joke.
They weren't making fun of people being gay, but of the two guys not thinking it might look that way to outsiders.
Loved the redecorated line. Especially the whole; "No, we moved", part.

Also, I now demand a Cybermat for Christmas!

I do like the idea that the Doctor has trouble understanding why people would have a problem with homosexuality.

"I danced with everybody at your wedding! The women were excellent, the men were shy."

[Linkara]

Also, I now demand a Cybermat for Christmas!

You and me both. ^_^ I've always wanted a life-size cybermat, ever since I was a little kid. Hopefully we'll get one this time around or else I'll just have someone I know build one. XD

[Stressfactor]

You and me both. ^_^ I've always wanted a life-size cybermat, ever since I was a little kid. Hopefully we'll get one this time around or else I'll just have someone I know build one. XDIt should be remote crontolled also..... so you can scare the crap out of people.



The Cybermats were good -- and I liked the redesign -- they kept enough of the old to make them recognizable but added enough 'new' to give them some spit-and-polish. They even more resembled the original Cybermats than the later redesign in the Fourth Doctor's era (never did like the deign on those Cybermats).

[Stressfactor]

Something else that should be noted......


Was Matt Smith great with that baby or what? I did wonder how he would do but he didn't fail to impress.... again.

[Danimal]

I do like the idea that the Doctor has trouble understanding why people would have a problem with homosexuality.

"I danced with everybody at your wedding! The women were excellent, the men were shy."

My favorite thing about 11 is his inability to understand most humans in general and how much that seems to get pronounced around Craig for some reason. Probably because unlike his other companion, or partners if you will, Craig really does want the "normal" life. Also, I've really come to love his double air kisses as something that he thinks makes him seem normal but is just so bizarre.

I thought this was a great setup to the season finale. As far as the gay jokes, I thought the episode did a brilliant job turning the usual panic on its side. Even funnier was the idea that the clerk was willing to watch their baby for them while they were apparently using the store for a rendezvous and how willing she was to let them have some alone time.

[J. Wilson]

The gay joke thing was kind of eh. Not offensive but didn't really add anything to the story.

The end with River was interesting.

Amy as the face of a perfume line? Where did THAT come from?

Stormageddon! That stuff with The Doctor telling Craig everything Stormageddon (the hell with the name Alfie) said was just perfectly priceless.

[Thequeerjock]

The "partner" stuff was fine. Even if it weren't on a queer-friendly show like Doctor Who, I can't see why that'd be offensive.

Also, echoing the above statements, I need a Cybermat now! Were the teeth something they added in for the new show?

[Shurato2099]

No they had teeth before ... cheap foam-rubber teeth, but they had them in the original design. In the Tom Baker days those got traded out for feelers.

[Linkara]

Even then, it's hard to call the ones on the old Cybermats "teeth."

But the mouth-plate opening to reveal organic teeth? Oh yeah, that's new. XD

[JohnBehling]

Did anyone notice the name of Amy's perfume? Think it was significant?

[Shurato2099]

I missed that part. What was it?

[t.c.johnson]

The perfume was Petrichor, which means the smell of dust after the rain.

I think it was just a reference to the Neil Gaiman episode.

[Shurato2099]

Ah, yes! The memory of that scent was part of the passcode to get into the archived TARDIS control room.

[t.c.johnson]

I can't believe how many friends and family reached out to me today...concerned...I am going to name one of my babies Stormageddon.

Seriously!


My wife has already said no, however although she might let me get away with using Stormy as a nickname.

[Spiffy]

I can't believe how many friends and family reached out to me today...concerned...I am going to name one of my babies Stormageddon.

Seriously!


My wife has already said no, however although she might let me get away with using Stormy as a nickname.
Yikes. Be careful with that last. Its kind of... um... how do I put this. Ok, there's no nice way.

A stripper nickname.

:lol:

[K-DoG7p7]

I can't believe how many friends and family reached out to me today...concerned...I am going to name one of my babies Stormageddon.

Seriously!


My wife has already said no, however although she might let me get away with using Stormy as a nickname.
Stormy Johnson.......

i see a future in porn

[DarkKnightJared]

Saw this on a random twitter message and had to share:

"Next week on Hoarders: a man who kept everything, including his crib, with him in his vehicle as he traveled for over 900 years."

[Thequeerjock]

Hah! Also, untold amounts of Jelly Babies!

[Corrina]

I can't believe how many friends and family reached out to me today...concerned...I am going to name one of my babies Stormageddon.

Seriously!


My wife has already said no, however although she might let me get away with using Stormy as a nickname.

So, you're going with Alfie then? :)

[rjs2586]

Is anyone else worried about the fate of Rory and Amy? Or the Doctor for that matter? I've grown quite attached to them all and will be sad to see either the Doctor getting a new companion or companions or regenerate himself. I keep forgetting the cast changes in Doctor Who quite a bit.

[Flamebird]

Is anyone else worried about the fate of Rory and Amy? Or the Doctor for that matter? I've grown quite attached to them all and will be sad to see either the Doctor getting a new companion or companions or regenerate himself. I keep forgetting the cast changes in Doctor Who quite a bit.

That's kind of the point. Everything ends and everything changes.
If you didn't care about the characters, you wouldn't care about them changing either.

[HamsterRage]

It seems unlikely that Matt Smith is going anywhere anytime soon. I'm thinking we've got him until at least 2014?

I'm betting he'll go a year or two longer than Tennant.

I also feel like River's story will have to go beyond Smith to whomever the 12th Doctor will be.

[Danimal]

It seems unlikely that Matt Smith is going anywhere anytime soon. I'm thinking we've got him until at least 2014?

I'm betting he'll go a year or two longer than Tennant.

I also feel like River's story will have to go beyond Smith to whomever the 12th Doctor will be.

I imagine Smith wants to be The Doctor during the 50th Anniversary in 2013. Plus, he's also got the role during a time when they're really trying to push the Doctor's exposure in the US, have a huge fan in Craig Ferguson, etc. I don't see him leaving for a couple more years at least. I doubt he'll have a Tom Baker length run, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him have a new companion next series. I imagine for the Christmas special, he'll have a one off.

[t.c.johnson]

So...

After seeing that episode.....


I really want to stage an intervention for Stephen Moffett, that poor, poor man.

[Stressfactor]

So...

After seeing that episode.....


I really want to stage an intervention for Stephen Moffett, that poor, poor man.

What? That he needs to put down the 'wibbley-wobbley-timey-wimey' and step away?


Man, I feel sorry for Amy and Rory they've not got HOW many alternate timelines running through their heads? Also, Amy is a badass..... and scary. Rory is now heroic +10. That moment where he was fighting his own pain to try to give cover to Amy.... yeah.

[Weeto]

I find Doctor Who hard to follow. I'm beginning to think that I'm never going to go back to watching it as it is getting worse trying to piece together everything.

I have to be honest and say that I haven't really liked the past two doctors. I liked Ecclestone but definately NOT Tennant and I'm less and less of a Matt Smith fan by the week.

I think they need to get some of these ongoing threads tied up and make the show more about sci-fi and stop the continous historical episodes as those bore the ass off me.

[t.c.johnson]

Out of curiosity what do you consider the difference between sci-fi and historical episodes?

[t.c.johnson]

I am just having trouble wrapping my head around that statement, and i don't mean that in an insulting way, but I am just confused.

Of the past 13 episodes, 4 of them have taken place in the past.

There was the Impossible Astronaught\Day of the Moon which featured aliens who can change peoples memories and have been manipulating humanity for thousands of years.

There was The Curse of the Black Spot which featured a holographic medical doctor gone heywire on a transdimensional spaceship.

And then there was Let's Kill Hitler which featured a shape changing robot controlled by miniturized people whose mission it was to go through time and punish war criminals.

Technically The Wedding or River Song took place in the past, but that was May of 2011.

So I am not sure how you tell the difference between historical episodes and science fiction, or how they are continuous.

[Corrina]

I rather liked it.

Moffat and Jasper Fforde should go somewhere and write something together, so we can also tie in literary fiction reality in the same confusing but lovable morass.

Also, the Doctor's out made perfect sense to me. Though Moffat also seems rather fond of throwing stuff out like "The lighthouse & the trained cormorant," as Doyle did when writing Holmes' mysteries. Every now and then Watson would talk about other adventures, like the Giant Rat of Sumatra, and we'd never learn what happened.

I wonder if Moffat isn't doing the same thing.

Holmes also faked his death.

Maybe Grant Morrison should join Fforde and Moffat. Just to throw in more creativity that zings all over the place, sometimes with no purpose.

But, yeah, I liked the ending quite a bit. It made me smile.

[Flamebird]

I think Moffat should write "The Further Adventures of Alice In Wonderland".
As a black comedy.
With a red-head.

Or do a season of Doctor Who; that let's him into "relative" dimensions, like fictional character history.
Let the Doctor go back to being the meddling outsider for a while; instead of the center of the universe.

[Patrick Gerard]

I think Moffat should write "The Further Adventures of Alice In Wonderland".
As a black comedy.
With a red-head.


I hope you mean Karen Gillian.

[Patrick Gerard]

You know what would be glorious for the 50th anniversary?

If we learned the Doctor could de-regenerate at a heavy price. They've already done so much to mystify and whimsify the core motifs of the franchise with things like the flying TARDIS and flawed regenerations and half timelord babies who can gift regenerations.

They should have Matt Smith de-regenerate through about six incarnations to become a tired, aged version of the Tom Baker Doctor and then die seven times in the episode to emerge as Matt Smith again. Obviously, some like Eccleston would likely require stock footage and Tennant would be schedule permitting but you could set up the idea of the aging reverse regenerations by starting off with Smith turning into a white haired, aged David Tennant.

[Flamebird]

I hope you mean Karen Gillian.
Unless he can actually go back in time to get Lucille Ball. :mistrust:

[Patrick Gerard]

Unless he can actually go back in time to get Lucille Ball. :mistrust:

Wow. You just covered the full range of my emotions towards redheads in popular culture by making my brain abruptly swing from Karen Gillian to Lucille Ball. My cognitive dissonance has an inverted time differential.

[Flamebird]

Just "reverse the polarity of the neutron flow" and you'll be fine.

Meanwhile, Amelia Pond, "the girl who waited"; is now the Doctors mother-in -law!
We thought she was scary before. . . :scared:

[JohnBehling]

I loved it. Steven Moffatt is wonderfully insane. Genius, fun, brilliant, and insane.
And the question in plain sight?
Cool!
I ask questions in plain sight now, questions are cool.

[Hybrid2]

I just finished watching the last episode.

It was great!and funny.

[Danimal]

I thought it was a great episode. I especially loved the moment where he tried to reach Lethbridge Stewart. It brought a tear to my eye. I loved that the Brigadier's death was what got him to stop running. Great way to work a tribute into one of the most supporting character's in the show's history.

[Stressfactor]

It was a flawed but overall interesting story.

I love how Amy and Rory are unabashedly a romantic couple. No matter what it's like the universe has decreed there will always be an Amy and she will always get her Rory.

I just kind of wish that Moffat would dial things back from '11' now. RTD's era kind of started it -- this idea that the season finale had to be big and bombastic and universe-shaking but Moffat seems to be taking that in ever more increasing doses and it's getting a bit.... wearying. I mean 'small but intense' works just as well.

And I'm pretty well convinced that "The Question" revealed in this episode is going to be a lead-up to the 50th anniversary.

[JohnBehling]

And I'm pretty well convinced that "The Question" revealed in this episode is going to be a lead-up to the 50th anniversary.

Yup. That seems the way to go!
I'm psyched!

[Linkara]

As soon as the previously on talked about the miniature people and the tesseract robot, my mind immediately clicked, "Hmmm, a robot that can disguise itself as anyone. That'd be an interesting way to get around it."

Really the only thing that bugs me about this finale is that the teaser at the end of "A Good Man Goes to War" show's the Doctor's skeleton holding a sonic screwdriver - so it's a complete fake-out.

But yeah, great ending. They managed to compress a crap-ton of stuff down into 45 minutes, which is what I was worried about - there were so many unanswered questions that I wasn't sure how they were going to be able to fit them all into a single finale episode, but this did it beautifully. Agreed on the tribute to Lethbridge-Stewart. When the Doctor pulled out the envelopes, I got the distinct impression that he had intended one for the Brigadier, too, and that maybe HE was supposed to be the one to arrive with the gasoline. Otherwise, I have no idea why it's Canton who shows up.

[Danimal]

As soon as the previously on talked about the miniature people and the tesseract robot, my mind immediately clicked, "Hmmm, a robot that can disguise itself as anyone. That'd be an interesting way to get around it."

Really the only thing that bugs me about this finale is that the teaser at the end of "A Good Man Goes to War" show's the Doctor's skeleton holding a sonic screwdriver - so it's a complete fake-out.

But yeah, great ending. They managed to compress a crap-ton of stuff down into 45 minutes, which is what I was worried about - there were so many unanswered questions that I wasn't sure how they were going to be able to fit them all into a single finale episode, but this did it beautifully. Agreed on the tribute to Lethbridge-Stewart. When the Doctor pulled out the envelopes, I got the distinct impression that he had intended one for the Brigadier, too, and that maybe HE was supposed to be the one to arrive with the gasoline. Otherwise, I have no idea why it's Canton who shows up.

I wonder if they had planned to have him guest star before he passed? It probably depends on when they filmed this episode.

[Danimal]

Actually, nevermind, that makes no sense as Nicholas Courtney didn't die until after the season premiered.

[Thequeerjock]

Question, how exactly did the blue dude know about the "Fall of the 11th" thing if he was so sure the Doctor was going to die?

[HamsterRage]

I really enjoyed it as well... I thought the expectations were managed, met, and toyed with in a very good fashion.

[Linkara]

Question, how exactly did the blue dude know about the "Fall of the 11th" thing if he was so sure the Doctor was going to die?
I'm guessing it's a prophecy kind of deal.

[Stressfactor]

Actually, nevermind, that makes no sense as Nicholas Courtney didn't die until after the season premiered.

Yeah, but Nick Courtney had been in ill health for some time before that and had been in a nursing home as he lost his own battle to cancer.

But still, I think they wouldn't/couldn't have thrown the Brig in there because it would have been out of nowhere and wouldn't have meant anything to Amy or Rory.

Canton DID serve a purpose in that he tells them that they haven't met him..... YET. So that sets up a mystery. It tells them that sometime in their future they WILL met Canton and that sets the audience wondering as well as to what his significance is.

[Stressfactor]

I'm guessing it's a prophecy kind of deal.

Yep. And the Silence are trying to avert the prophecy.

[t.c.johnson]

Did they explain why they got married at that time exactly? Other than the Doctor was about to "die"

[Stressfactor]

Did they explain why they got married at that time exactly? Other than the Doctor was about to "die"I took it that the Doctor was rather touched by River's love for him.

Just before then River had said she couldn't live without the Doctor and the Doctor asked if it was worth the lives of the everyone else in the universe and she said "yes".

That's a pretty bold statement.