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HOOKS
05-05-2010, 03:37 PM
The FBI has served a warrant on the pirate site HTMLcomics.com and shut their servers down.

Acting on a warrant that alleged criminal copyright infringement, they shut down the site and confiscated the servers, according to this press release from the law firm Katten Muchin Rosenman LLP.

According to the release, DC, Marvel, Dark Horse Comics, Bongo Comics, Archie Comics, Conan Properties Int’l LLC, Mirage Studios Inc., and United Media set aside their differences, formed a consortium, and lawyered up in order to shut down the site, which claimed an average of 1.6 million visits per day and offered 6,630,021 pages of comics available for unrestricted reading.

Rich Johnston blogged about these guys a few weeks ago, noting that they claimed that they weren't violating any copyright laws because they make the pages available for viewing online but not for download. Of course, it took his commenters about 30 seconds to defeat that, and anyway, the Department of Justice begs to differ with them on the legal issues.

We'll have more on this as it develops.

The full press release is below.

http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2010/05/publishers-get-together-to-beat-down-pirates/

Rod Nunley
05-05-2010, 03:42 PM
Wow. I had never even heard of that website. I guess that means I'm not a thief.

Bill Nolan
05-05-2010, 03:44 PM
Good.

Buk Was Right
05-05-2010, 03:44 PM
But now where will I download my comics and justify it with bullshit arguments about how it's the publisher's fault for making comics too expensive?

RoShambo
05-05-2010, 03:50 PM
Hmm.
Someone's been asking about this site on another board.
That was the first I'd heard of it, and now this.

HOOKS
05-05-2010, 03:53 PM
Colleen Doran posted her thoughts:

http://adistantsoil.com/2010/05/05/pirate-website-raided-by-fbi/

"The website was run by a man with a long and unusual history of run-ins with the police, including this epic weirdness in which he used his computer company to send SPAM messages attacking a policeman who arrested him, claiming to all that the cop was a gay pedophile. He then proceeded to set up a gay porn website in the cop’s name."

Huh.

A.Huerta
05-05-2010, 03:54 PM
finally.

JeremyDale
05-05-2010, 04:02 PM
Seriously-- I was surprised it survived as long as it did.

Akira
05-05-2010, 05:03 PM
Nice. One down, several (hundred probably) to go.

HOOKS
05-05-2010, 05:10 PM
Seriously-- I was surprised it survived as long as it did.

I only recently heard about the site, from Bleeding Cool.

How long was it up, and are there really lots of sites like this?

Not cool.

babydave
05-05-2010, 11:03 PM
On one hand, that kinda sucks. On the other, that guy sounds like an asshole.

I had never heard of that website. Downloading is great.

Jacques Toochay
05-05-2010, 11:09 PM
Awesome.

A win for the good guys.

panco
05-05-2010, 11:30 PM
On one hand, that kinda sucks. On the other, that guy sounds like an asshole.

I had never heard of that website. Downloading is great.

http://www.halolz.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/facepalm.gif

cPol
05-06-2010, 03:24 AM
Downloading is great.

Downloading and being able to pay the people who created it at the same time is even better.

Greygor
05-06-2010, 03:42 AM
Downloading and being able to pay the people who created it at the same time is even better.

This, emphasis on download, not browse online.

edwardmblake
05-06-2010, 04:15 AM
That press release is terribly written.

bartleby
05-06-2010, 04:28 AM
When you consider that the best selling comics have print runs in the low hundred thousands, 1.6 million hits a day is a ridiculous number. What are the chances that even a small percentage of those people will go out start buying comics now that their source has dried up?

SidekicksRevenge
05-06-2010, 04:36 AM
When you consider that the best selling comics have print runs in the low hundred thousands, 1.6 million hits a day is a ridiculous number. What are the chances that even a small percentage of those people will go out start buying comics now that their source has dried up?

Zero per cent. They'll find it somewhere else. This crowd will never, ever, translate to paying customers.

Ryudo
05-06-2010, 04:37 AM
Huh, United Media? Interesting.

bartleby
05-06-2010, 04:42 AM
Zero per cent. They'll find it somewhere else. This crowd will never, ever, translate to paying customers.

Yeah, I was being facetious. It's going to be impossible for the comic industry to beat a price of $0.

Treacle
05-06-2010, 07:32 AM
Good. I'm not a big fan of cheating artists and writers out of their due.

Cth
05-06-2010, 07:59 AM
I know we're told not to trust the numbers, but check these figures out..

http://www.nostalgiazone.com/doc/zine/05_Q2/funnybusiness.htm

1992
X-Men 967,808
Uncanny X-Men 731,425
Amazing Spider-Man 592,442
Mad Magazine 503,576
Wolverine (1993) 396,958
Ghost Rider 357,200
Incredible Hulk 299,755
Archie Digest Magazine 177,569
Archie 44,547

1998
Uncanny X-Men 207,000
X-Men 200,070
Spawn 129,000*
Archie Digest Magazine 120,543
Amazing Spider-Man 119,547
Incredible Hulk 94,405
Witchblade 89,000*
Darkness 84,000*
Superman 54,000*
Batman 51,000*
Gen 13 51,000*
Daredevil 39,814
Archie 35,801
Ghost Rider 32,566

2002
Uncanny X-Men (101,000*) 162,995
Ultimate Spider-Man (91,000*) 128,224
Amazing Spider-Man (99,000*) 122,592
Daredevil (53,000*) 78,750
Avengers (61,000*) 77,960
JLA 66,000*
Batman 50,000*
Spawn 47,000*
The Authority (in 2001) 42,000*
Superman 41,000*
(* first six month average comic shop sales derived from figures available at www.icv2.com)

To get an idea of sales figures pre and post internet boom.

I'm not saying there's a direct correlation, but it is eye opening to see just how far things have fallen.

Keep in mind, the whole direct market stuff and Image's formation, etc were happening around this time as well.

Marvelprince
05-06-2010, 08:08 AM
Yeah count me as another one who's never even heard of this obviously popular site. Definitely interesting noting the amount of traffic that site gets though.

Foolish Mortal
05-06-2010, 08:40 AM
Good job I guess, but it's something that can't really be stopped. Somebody, somewhere will be scanning comics and putting them online.

DrMachine
05-06-2010, 08:42 AM
I'd never heard of it before reading this, but realistically shutting down the site isn't going to do much to stop comic book piracy. There is obviously a market that is not being served by the publishers, they should focus more on trying to make money with this group of potential customers and less on wasting police resources.

Buk Was Right
05-06-2010, 08:47 AM
Downloading and being able to pay the people who created it at the same time is even better.

But you guys, paying for stuff is hard and if these companies aren't going to make the content available online then I have to download it illegally right?

Akira
05-06-2010, 08:49 AM
I'd never heard of it before reading this, but realistically shutting down the site isn't going to do much to stop comic book piracy. There is obviously a market that is not being served by the publishers, they should focus more on trying to make money with this group of potential customers and less on wasting police resources.

Except the market being served in this case is people who don't want to pay for comics to begin with, so it's kinda difficult to make money off of those types of people.

I AM GROOT!
05-06-2010, 08:53 AM
I only heard about it a few weeks ago, but I'm not surprised that it was shut down. However (and not that this validates the site's existence, obviously), I don't believe you could download the comics, only view them.

bartleby
05-06-2010, 09:03 AM
I'd never heard of it before reading this, but realistically shutting down the site isn't going to do much to stop comic book piracy. There is obviously a market that is not being served by the publishers, they should focus more on trying to make money with this group of potential customers and less on wasting police resources.

Bullshit. At least 99% of these are people who just don't want to pay for comics. That's not a market the comic book industry can cater to.

DrMachine
05-06-2010, 09:06 AM
Bullshit. At least 99% of these are people who just don't want to pay for comics. That's not a market the comic book industry can cater to.

That's an awfully specific number to be throwing around, considering it's based on absolutely nothing.

whazisname
05-06-2010, 09:10 AM
I only heard about it a few weeks ago, but I'm not surprised that it was shut down. However (and not that this validates the site's existence, obviously), I don't believe you could download the comics, only view them.

Then I guess you don't understand that when you "view" something on your computer you HAVE downloaded it. Everything you view is in your temporary internet file and can easily be saved permanently.

Boris the Blade
05-06-2010, 09:11 AM
That's awfully specific number to be throwing around, considering it's based on absolutely nothing.
Should we poll each person who pirates comic books? I think it's pretty safe to assume the vast majority of pirates download because it's free.

DrMachine
05-06-2010, 09:12 AM
Should we poll each person who pirates comic books? I think it's pretty safe to assume the vast majority of pirates download because it's free.
Not in question, and also a more sensible statement than the one I was responding too.

RoShambo
05-06-2010, 09:18 AM
I only heard about it a few weeks ago, but I'm not surprised that it was shut down. However (and not that this validates the site's existence, obviously), I don't believe you could download the comics, only view them.


People have been talking about it (I guess since it got shut down)on another board, and this is my understanding as well.

Apparently they had older comics that haven't been reprinted and are long out of print.
Most people are saying that they used the site to help decide which TPBs and collections to buy.
:dunno:

I'm not saying that I agree with it, just repeating the reasoning that I've seen some give for using the site.

Patch
05-06-2010, 09:19 AM
There is obviously a market that is not being served by the publishers, they should focus more on trying to make money with this group of potential customers

I'm stealing your comics and it's your fault!

Fucking ridiculous.

Boris the Blade
05-06-2010, 09:23 AM
People have been talking about it (I guess since it got shut down)on another board, and this is my understanding as well.

Apparently they had older comics that haven't been reprinted and are long out of print.
Most people are saying that they used the site to help decide which TPBs and collections to buy.
:dunno:

I'm not saying that I agree with it, just repeating the reasoning that I've seen some give for using the site.
Maybe they're lying. Most people lie when accused of doing something wrong.

ManOfMiracles
05-06-2010, 09:23 AM
with out condemning or condoning I have to say that EVERYONE, not just comic book fanboys would prefer free over any price for something (even a dime), which is why these sites pop up.
I can see the trend continuing based on the fact that comic books aren't getting any cheaper these days....

Ryudo
05-06-2010, 09:27 AM
I'd never heard of it before reading this, but realistically shutting down the site isn't going to do much to stop comic book piracy. There is obviously a market that is not being served by the publishers, they should focus more on trying to make money with this group of potential customers and less on wasting police resources.

You mean like making iPhone and iPad apps, and making issues available online via a service?

DrMachine
05-06-2010, 09:31 AM
I'm stealing your comics and it's your fault!

Fucking ridiculous.
Nowhere did I say that, it's pretty sad not to mention pathetic that the discussion on the board is at this level lately.

Let me make my statements in a fashion that can't be misunderstood, yes and no answers.

Should publishers protect their property? Yes.
Does the level of piracy in the industry imply an untapped market for digital comics (done correctly)? Yes.
Are the pirates criminals? Yes.
Do I download comics illegally? No.
Does the FBI have better things to do? Yes.
Will this stop comic piracy? No.

DrMachine
05-06-2010, 09:33 AM
You mean like making iPhone and iPad apps, and making issues available online via a service?

I briefly toyed with the Marvel app, and it is a poorly implemented service. I deleted it. I haven't tried anything else.

Ryudo
05-06-2010, 09:34 AM
Does the FBI have better things to do? Yes.


I'd call stopping piracy and a car bomb in Times Square in the space of a week a win-win.

DrMachine
05-06-2010, 09:35 AM
I'd call stopping piracy and a car bomb in Times Square in the space of a week a win-win.
One has little to do with the other in terms of scope and type of crime.

HOOKS
05-06-2010, 09:37 AM
http://marvel.com/digitalcomics/
http://www.imagecomics.com/onlinecomics.php
http://www.comixology.com/
http://www.panelfly.com/ipad/
http://www.comicmix.com/
http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/comics/id303491945?mt=8
http://longboxdigital.com/longbox-version-0.7-released.html
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/products/mediago/default_enu.asp?page=download

etc etc

DrMachine
05-06-2010, 09:38 AM
http://marvel.com/digitalcomics/
http://www.imagecomics.com/onlinecomics.php
http://www.comixology.com/
http://www.panelfly.com/ipad/
http://www.comicmix.com/
http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/comics/id303491945?mt=8
http://longboxdigital.com/longbox-version-0.7-released.html
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/products/mediago/default_enu.asp?page=download

etc etc

None of those is the digital equivalent of a physical comicbook, which is what should be sold.

Patch
05-06-2010, 09:40 AM
None of those is the digital equivalent of a physical comicbook, which is what should be sold.

Could you stop whining now?

joshdahl
05-06-2010, 09:42 AM
I'd never heard of it before reading this, but realistically shutting down the site isn't going to do much to stop comic book piracy. There is obviously a market that is not being served by the publishers, they should focus more on trying to make money with this group of potential customers and less on wasting police resources.

(warning: obvious hyperbole below)
All crimes are hard to fight, and no crime has ever been completely eradicated by enforcing the laws against it.
Should we abandon all police work simply because some jerk is always going to break the law?
Enforcing these laws makes it harder and riskier to do. That drives people out. I guarantee that when this made news, lots of people who were casually scanning and posting decided that it is not worth it anymore.... because their readers ARE NOT PAYING THEM FOR IT.

Will it end piracy? No. Will it make piracy much less appealing? Yes, clearly.

And people-unwilling-to-spend-money and potential-customers is a ven diagram with no overlap.

DrMachine
05-06-2010, 09:43 AM
Could you stop whining now?

Once again, a perfect example of the level of discussion around here lately

It's almost impossible to carry on a legitimate discussion. I really don't understand the inability to discuss things in a civil manner.

RoShambo
05-06-2010, 09:46 AM
Maybe they're lying. Most people lie when accused of doing something wrong.

It is a definite possibility.

Especially since the other board is lyingliarswholieandthenlieaboutlying.com.

Patch
05-06-2010, 09:48 AM
Once again, a perfect example of the level of discussion around here lately

It's almost impossible to carry on a legitimate discussion. I really don't understand the inability to discuss things in a civil manner.

There's digital subscription, there's the ipad, there's physical copies; single, paperback, and hardcover.

That none of this is good enough, and can in any way be construed as a justification for piracy--when really, it should just be about reading and enjoying the comic-- is a bit annoying.

DrMachine
05-06-2010, 09:51 AM
(warning: obvious hyperbole below)
All crimes are hard to fight, and no crime has ever been completely eradicated by enforcing the laws against it.
Should we abandon all police work simply because some jerk is always going to break the law?
Enforcing these laws makes it harder and riskier to do. That drives people out. I guarantee that when this made news, lots of people who were casually scanning and posting decided that it is not worth it anymore.... because their readers ARE NOT PAYING THEM FOR IT.

Will it end piracy? No. Will it make piracy much less appealing? Yes, clearly.

And people-unwilling-to-spend-money and potential-customers is a ven diagram with no overlap.

To liken my argument to abandoning all law enforcement is just silly, not to mention unrealistic.
Publisher's and those they represent have every right to protect their properties, my argument is that they should look at other ways of doing so.

The binary system you present isn't realistic in terms of the average comic book fan/pirate. There is no doubt that there exists within the comic pirate population, individuals that will not pay under any circumstances. However if we accept that condition then we must accept the condition that there are also comic pirates that will pay for the right product, as well as a host of other categories. It is by attracting those people who are willing to pay for the right product that the industry will lessen piracy (it will never be eliminated).

Christopher Brian
05-06-2010, 09:54 AM
Once again, a perfect example of the level of discussion around here lately

It's almost impossible to carry on a legitimate discussion. I really don't understand the inability to discuss things in a civil manner.

He's a creator. I think anyone who creates something or works on intellectual properties for a living has a issue with piracy and anyone who would seemingly defend it.

I personally think the .cbr and .cbz files, while not as polished or as snazzy as the comics being sold for restricted download from the publishers and authorized third parties because they are scans, are often more appealing to an old comic reader who wants the comic and not really some digital thing. While there probably is very little overlap between people who just want free comics and those who will buy I do think that Marvel's old dot comics format if used correctly and free of DRM software (meaning you can burn it to a disc and take it from pc to pc) would probably sell well to the crowd who are currently turning thier nose up at digital comics and sticking with thier published comics.

I like MP3s. Love them. I rarely buy from Itunes because I like to have the ability to play my music where I want. I buy my singles from Amazon because of the MP3 format. I can put it on my flash drive and take it to work. I can load it into itunes and put it on my iphone. I can burn it onto a cd and play it in my truck. If you could give me a 5-7 MB file for a single comic that I can do with what I want after I purchase it i'd be good. Right now that's not possible. I'll keep my pull list. Cause once I buy my physical comic I can do with it as I please.

DrMachine
05-06-2010, 09:54 AM
Theres's digital subscription, there's the ipad, there's physical copies; single, paperback, and hardcover.

That none of this is good enough, and can in any way be construed as a justification for piracy--when really, it should just be about reading and enjoying the comic-- is a bit annoying.
Never did I justify piracy in my arguments. Stealing someone's work is never justifiable.

I've already covered the existing forms of commercial digital comics.

The industry is very quickly approaching a point where they will be forced to adopt a non-restrictive form of digital comicbook. Whether they fight it at every step, wasting resources and losing fans is completely up to them (as an industry).

bartleby
05-06-2010, 09:57 AM
Once again, a perfect example of the level of discussion around here lately

It's almost impossible to carry on a legitimate discussion. I really don't understand the inability to discuss things in a civil manner.

When you're taking the side of "It's all right to steal comic books" on a message board hosted by a comic book creator, you don't deserve to be treated with civility.

Patch
05-06-2010, 09:57 AM
Stealing someone's work is never justifiable.



That's all I wanted to hear. Thanks.

DrMachine
05-06-2010, 09:58 AM
He's a creator. I think anyone who creates something or works on intellectual properties for a living has a issue with piracy and anyone who would seemingly defend it.

I personally think the .cbr and .cbz files, while not as polished as snazzy as the comics being sold for download from the publishers and authorized third parties because they are scans, are often more appealing to an old comic reader who wants the comic and not really some digital thing. While there probably is very little overlap between people who just want free comics and those who will buy I do think that Marvel's old dot comics format if used correctly and free of DRM software (meaning you can burn it to a disc and take it from pc to pc) would probably sell well to the crowd who are currently turning thier nose up at digital comics and sticking with thier published comics.

I like MP3s. Love them. I rarely buy from Itunes because I like to have the ability to play my music where I want. I buy my singles from Amazon because of the MP3 format. I can put it on my flash drive and take it to work. I can load it into itunes and put it on my iphone. I can burn it onto a cd and play it in my truck. If you could give me a 5-7 MB file for a single comic that I can do with what I want after I purchase it i'd be good. Right now that's not possible. I'll keep my pull list. Cause once I buy my physical comic I can do with it as I please.

I agree with you almost completely.

I have an issue with being referred to someone who would defend piracy (I never did so), and the inability for an individual to interpret my statements for what they are lies in the cognitive abilities of the reader. Also, I've almost completely abandoned comicbooks due to the cost and number of ads. I buy the occasional single issue and usually stick to buying half price trades at cons.

Christopher Brian
05-06-2010, 09:59 AM
I agree with you almost completely.

I have an issue with being referred to someone who would defend piracy (I never did so), and the inability for an individual to interpret my statements for what they are lies in the cognitive abilities of the reader. Also, I've almost completely abandoned comicbooks due to the cost and number of ads. I buy the occasional single issue and usually stick to buying half price trades at cons.

You did seem sort of sympathetic. I didn't think you were but I can see how that can be gleamed from the first few posts especially from a creator. No worries. I do not think you are a piracy champion.

Boris the Blade
05-06-2010, 10:00 AM
On free comic book day this guy was talking about comics with the owner about the free Larry Hama G.I. Joe book. I was leafing through their half-off bin at the end of the desk a few feet away. He said he hadn't read them. The owner talked them up, saying how great they are, giving the sales pitch. The guy says, excitedly, that he hopes he can find a torrent when he gets home. The owner said he should probably be buying them, because he has all the trades, in this kind of "did you really just say that?" tone. The guy said "yeah, maybe I will, I don't know." He was nice enough after to shrug it off "oh well, I guess I understand" because I guess he didn't want to alienate the occasional customer but... yeesh.

edwardmblake
05-06-2010, 10:24 AM
The industry is very quickly approaching a point where they will be forced to adopt a non-restrictive form of digital comicbook. Whether they fight it at every step, wasting resources and losing fans is completely up to them (as an industry).

Well said.

BENDIS!
05-06-2010, 10:49 AM
fuck this guy.

BENDIS!
05-06-2010, 10:53 AM
if you re stealing a comic you're not a fan of the comic. you're the opposite. you're a fan of yourself. which, i guess is fine, but lets call it what it is.

but if you're stealing a comic you're helping kill it. the end.

RoShambo
05-06-2010, 10:54 AM
if you re stealing a comic you're not a fan of the comic. you're the opposite. you're a fan of yourself. which, i guess is fine, but lets call it what it is.

but if you're stealing a comic you're helping kill it. the end.

.

bartleby
05-06-2010, 10:58 AM
if you re stealing a comic you're not a fan of the comic. you're the opposite. you're a fan of yourself. which, i guess is fine, but lets call it what it is.

but if you're stealing a comic you're helping kill it. the end.

I could at least respect people for being honest if they'd just go out and say that they want to read the comics without paying for them. But all the bullshit excuses and the insistence that the people providing the scans are doing good work is just insulting.

BENDIS!
05-06-2010, 10:58 AM
when i was a kid i used to steal candybars all the time. i was amazing at it. when i got caught i didn't say: the candy bar industry needs to embrace customers like me.

BENDIS!
05-06-2010, 10:59 AM
I could at least respect people for being honest if they'd just go out and say that they want to read the comics without paying for them. But all the bullshit excuses and the insistence that the people providing the scans are doing good work is just insulting.

exaclty. ugh. i hate when we completely agree! :)

DrMachine
05-06-2010, 11:02 AM
Exactly, because those two things are exactly alike.

Well said.

I AM GROOT!
05-06-2010, 11:02 AM
Then I guess you don't understand that when you "view" something on your computer you HAVE downloaded it. Everything you view is in your temporary internet file and can easily be saved permanently.

And I do know that, but I was referring to it in the sense that, unlike other illegal sites, it didn't give you the option of actually downloading them (at least according to what I saw on Byrne's forum).

Again, I'm not defending the site or what it represented. It needed to come down.

bartleby
05-06-2010, 11:03 AM
exaclty. ugh. i hate when we completely agree! :)

I've long been one of the board's most vocal anti-piracy advocates.

bartleby
05-06-2010, 11:05 AM
And I do know that, but I was referring to it in the sense that, unlike other illegal sites, it didn't give you the option of actually downloading them (at least according to what I saw on Byrne's forum).

Again, I'm not defending the site or what it represented. It needed to come down.

I've still never understand why that made any difference aside from what people thought was some legal loophole. It still didn't make it ethically justifiable.

I AM GROOT!
05-06-2010, 11:07 AM
I've still never understand why that made any difference aside from what people thought was some legal loophole. It still didn't make it ethically justifiable.

I don't think there is an ethically justifiable difference either way. In fact, I doubt it would have made any difference whatsoever, especially if someone attempted to redistribute what they only "viewed."

JamesV
05-06-2010, 11:11 AM
I could at least respect people for being honest if they'd just go out and say that they want to read the comics without paying for them. But all the bullshit excuses and the insistence that the people providing the scans are doing good work is just insulting.

I've never understood this logic. All the time wasted on excuses and justifications and its like "you did what you did" just own the fuck up to it.

Whip
05-06-2010, 11:18 AM
Exactly, because those two things are exactly alike.

Well said.

They are.

Stealing is stealing is stealing is stealing.

No matter if you stuff it in your pocket and run out the door or if you click on a few torrents to download from a website without making a payment.

edwardmblake
05-06-2010, 11:22 AM
when i was a kid i used to steal candybars all the time. i was amazing at it. when i got caught i didn't say: the candy bar industry needs to embrace customers like me.

With respect to the music industry, iTunes model did just that. It was Steve Jobs who said that the need was to find a price point and a quality delivery system, and people would stop illegally downloading and start purchasing again. Downloading sucks, agreed, but there are people who do that who can be potential customers in the future. I'm assuming you buy your candy bars these days.

TV Zombie
05-06-2010, 11:22 AM
Bendis just invited me here to debate piracy via Twitter....

So...

If I want to read, listen or watch something that I can't afford I go to the library. If they don't have it - I read, listen or watch something they do have.

bartleby
05-06-2010, 11:26 AM
With respect to the music industry, iTunes model did just that. It was Steve Jobs who said that the need was to find a price point and a quality delivery system, and people would stop illegally downloading and start purchasing again. Downloading sucks, agreed, but there are people who do that who can be potential customers in the future. I'm assuming you buy your candy bars these days.

iTunes is doing well, but the record industry still hasn't really recovered. And there are still tons of people illegally downloading music.

DrMachine
05-06-2010, 11:29 AM
iTunes is doing well, but the record industry still hasn't really recovered. And there are still tons of people illegally downloading music.

I honestly don't think it will ever "recover" in the sense that it will return to what it was. It will have to become something else. Why? Because they fought too hard against technology, they didn't want to give up their classic business model and lost/alienated fans.

Ab4dd0n
05-06-2010, 11:29 AM
iTunes is doing well, but the record industry still hasn't really recovered. And there are still tons of people illegally downloading music.

I still download music illegally, but then I go buy the physical cd if I really like the group, and beyond that I'll go see them live, buy a shirt, etc. I easily go to two shows a year.

Though with comics, I'm pretty much on top of all the series I like, there was a time when I was downloading torrents from z-cult, but all that did was get me interested in even more series. I'm sure I'm part of a very small percentage with that.

Rawnzilla
05-06-2010, 11:30 AM
Comics piracy is really a double-edged sword. On the one hand, it is the illegal reproduction/distribution of copyrighted works without consideration or compensation of the original creators. On the other, scans of comics can help to promote comics and actually get fans to buy comics.

I was into comics when I was seven years old and stopped buying comics when I was twelve for reasons I'm not really sure of. When I was fifteen, I found scans of Ultimate Spider-Man on my brother's computer and read the entire series up to issue 60 or so in two or three days. I was hooked again. I started off with subscriptions to New Avengers and Amazing Spider-Man through Marvel and soon after returned to buying comics weekly at a store a few miles away from my house.

It's been five years since I found those scans. Today, I'm working at my local comic book store and I've been offered an internship at Marvel Comics in New York City. I've met creators and established friendships with people at Marvel and elsewhere in the comics world. I can't say that piracy is acceptable for everyone because it got me back into comics, but I can say that I'm not the only one who has started buying comics after reading scans.

Just my two cents. Also, I'm sorry for having read scans of your comics, Brian. But if I didn't, I'm not so sure I would have bought the first two Ultimate Collections and issues 86 - 120.

DrMachine
05-06-2010, 11:32 AM
They are.

Stealing is stealing is stealing is stealing.

No matter if you stuff it in your pocket and run out the door or if you click on a few torrents to download from a website without making a payment.

One is a lost sale, with a loss of physical stock. The other is still stealing, but without a loss in stock.

Either way it shouldn't be tolerated, but they are not completely analagous. Pirating a digital comicbook is more like pirating an mp3.

rpriske
05-06-2010, 11:35 AM
I still download music illegally, but then I go buy the physical cd if I really like the group,

It is amazing how often I see that argument.

Are some of those people telling the truth? Maybe.

Most aren't. They are trying to justify stealing... especially to themselves.

bartleby
05-06-2010, 11:37 AM
On the other, scans of comics can help to promote comics and actually get fans to buy comics.

There's plenty of legal avenues with which to sample products though. Sure, you won't be able to read 60 issues without paying for them, but it seems like after about 6 pages of one book, you should be able to tell enough to decide whether it's worth spending a couple of dollars on.

TV Zombie
05-06-2010, 11:38 AM
Maybe this already exists but what about an archive of scripts? I know there are a couple of sites where you can find a script or two but I"m talking about an entire library of just scripts for those of us that want to check out the "story" before we purchase.

This way people can see if they like the story before buying and the publisher isn't being stolen from by having the entire product via illegal downloads.

Heck I've even gotten into a financial situation as of late where I invested money in different series and can no longer afford them... I would love to see where the story went so it would be great to read the final issues just to have some completion to the series or arc.

edwardmblake
05-06-2010, 11:38 AM
iTunes is doing well, but the record industry still hasn't really recovered. And there are still tons of people illegally downloading music.

I agree with both of your statements.

Rod Nunley
05-06-2010, 11:38 AM
It is amazing how often I see that argument.

Are some of those people telling the truth? Maybe.

Most aren't. They are trying to justify stealing... especially to themselves.

Welcome to the board.

Ab4dd0n
05-06-2010, 11:39 AM
There's plenty of legal avenues with which to sample products though. Sure, you won't be able to read 60 issues without paying for them, but it seems like after about 6 pages of one book, you should be able to tell enough to decide whether it's worth spending a couple of dollars on.

I got into Ultimate Spider-man through the free issues that Marvel had on their website 2001-02
They also had Hulk, Amazing, Ult X and a few others, probably half of which I liked enough to go buy after they stopped offering them for free. Ult Spidey was the only one that I went back and bought collections of though.

But I subscribe now to the "sitting around Barnes & Noble" to preview a book I think I might be interested in

babydave
05-06-2010, 11:42 AM
Are the pirates criminals? Yes.


Depends on who you're calling a pirate. I don't think people viewing something online or downloading something should be considered pirates.

The person who was arrested gets no sympathy from me. Not because he had a website with comics on it but because it was clear he was doing it for personal gain, at least from what Colleen Doran said about him. In this one case, I am for shutting down the website. I do not think this is what should happen across the board or be applied to anyone else. Like the Bush/Gore election case.

I'm for free downloading. I'm for reasonably priced downloading. I'm for creators getting to earn a living from their work. If I download something, I have my own reasonable personal guidelines for it and I don't consider it "piracy" or theft of any kind. I could've watched Iron Man 2 streaming online last week, but I didn't. I also didn't try to have the stream shut down, but I would have been pleased if it were shut down through some other means....yet I don't think anyone should be arrested for it except the person who made the original recording from inside the movie theater.


When you're taking the side of "It's all right to steal comic books" on a message board hosted by a comic book creator, you don't deserve to be treated with civility.

When someone else frames your argument a certain way and turns it into something that can be easily dismissed which results in people feeling justified in throwing civility out of the window, what's that? Message Board Etiquette 101?

No one said "it's all right to steal comic books." Unauthorized downloading does not always equal theft. I believe that's the basis behind almost every argument in favor of unauthorized downloading. [That statement goes to Bendis' comments as well.] It's not as simple as some people like to make it.

DrMachine
05-06-2010, 11:46 AM
Depends on who you're calling a pirate. I don't think people viewing something online or downloading something should be considered pirates.

The person who was arrested gets no sympathy from me. Not because he had a website with comics on it but because it was clear he was doing it for personal gain, at least from what Colleen Doran said about him. In this one case, I am for shutting down the website. I do not think this is what should happen across the board or be applied to anyone else. Like the Bush/Gore election case.

I'm for free downloading. I'm for reasonably priced downloading. I'm for creators getting to earn a living from their work. If I download something, I have my own reasonable personal guidelines for it and I don't consider it "piracy" or theft of any kind. I could've watched Iron Man 2 streaming online last week, but I didn't. I also didn't try to have the stream shut down, but I would have been pleased if it were shut down through some other means....yet I don't think anyone should be arrested for it except the person who made the original recording from inside the movie theater.



When someone else frames your argument a certain way and turns it into something that can be easily dismissed which results in people feeling justified in throwing civility out of the window, what's that? Message Board Etiquette 101?

No one said "it's all right to steal comic books." Unauthorized downloading does not always equal theft. I believe that's the basis behind almost every argument in favor of unauthorized downloading. [That statement goes to Bendis' comments as well.] It's not as simple as some people like to make it.

I think we're almost on the same page, but I do stand by the idea that these people were/are pirates. Why? Because they are viewing or consuming a creation in a way not authorized by the creators, without having purchased it first.

Meaning...if I go to the LCS and buy a copy of a copy and digitize it, then I as the purchaser have the right to do this. Do I have the right to then distribute the file to others? No.

Yorick Brown
05-06-2010, 11:46 AM
I briefly toyed with the Marvel app, and it is a poorly implemented service. I deleted it. I haven't tried anything else.


With respect to the music industry, iTunes model did just that. It was Steve Jobs who said that the need was to find a price point and a quality delivery system, and people would stop illegally downloading and start purchasing again. Downloading sucks, agreed, but there are people who do that who can be potential customers in the future. I'm assuming you buy your candy bars these days.

I agree with both of these. The second specifically in the context of comics. I mentioned this in the iPad thread...I love reading comics on the iPad and want to use the Marvel and Comixology apps more than I do. The problem I have is that the pricing model is goofy.

I can get a paper copy of many comics cheaper from mailordercomics.com or dcbs.com thank I can on the official applications. Make it like iTunes -- $1 each. Either that or give me a download code to get the free issues when I buy a single issue (or TPB, HC, Omnibus, Absolute). I already double and triple dip too often, I'm not quadruple dipping.

cap10266
05-06-2010, 11:48 AM
I don't see how putting comics up to be read is a crime. Downloading yes but reading? I don't understand. If I scanned my collection and put my entire collection up - that is illegal? Even if I have no ads to profit from? Even if you could only read the copies? Then I guess I cant lend my books to my friends. I did not use the Html Comics site as a free way to read the comics that I normally buy. I used it read titles That I normally would NOT buy. And would never buy even from a used book store or bargain bin. Not sure how that is taking money out of creators pockets. I now have more appreciation for the character (Alias) and most likely buy comics that feature her. Html Comics should have not used illegal copies in it's library. That was wrong. Can you imagine going to a library that had only knock-off copies of books? Just my 2 cents, I can't speak for everybody.

Simps
05-06-2010, 11:50 AM
None of those is the digital equivalent of a physical comicbook, which is what should be sold.

Really? While not perfect, I think the Marvel Comics (and related Comixology apps) are as close as I would want. I have no interest in the zooming on panels, and panning around the page functions. The screen size of the iPad is large enough that viewing a page all at once is clean and sharp enough for me.

My frustration is the speed at which they're (not) adding new content. Only this week was Fraction's full first arc of Iron Man made available. They should have led with that at the beginning. I understand (but don't agree with) not wanting to cannibalize physical single issue sales, but on that title, they should have everything up to the current arc available on there, and loads of big stories that they've recently been collecting in trade paperbacks and hardcovers. A stronger launch library should have been available on this app at the launch. Some of their choices to include on the app are truly puzzling. Is "New X-Men: Academy X," a book that's not being published currently, really a book that's going to hook a potential new reader?

bartleby
05-06-2010, 11:51 AM
The problem I have is that the pricing model is goofy.

I can get a paper copy of many comics cheaper from mailordercomics.com or dcbs.com thank I can on the official applications. Make it like iTunes -- $1 each. Either that or give me a download code to get the free issues when I buy a single issue (or TPB, HC, Omnibus, Absolute). I already double and triple dip too often, I'm not quadruple dipping.

The issue with that is that if you're paying $1 for a comic on your iPad, then there are going to be a lot of people who won't pay $4 for the same content at the local comic shop.

It was different with music on iTunes because the cost of 10-14 tracks is roughly equivalent to the cost of a CD.

DrMachine
05-06-2010, 11:52 AM
i can get a paper copy of many comics cheaper from mailordercomics.com or dcbs.com thank i can on the official applications. Make it like itunes -- $1 each. Either that or give me a download code to get the free issues when i buy a single issue (or tpb, hc, omnibus, absolute). I already double and triple dip too often, i'm not quadruple dipping.

madness!!! Omg@@!11@@

babydave
05-06-2010, 11:52 AM
I've still never understand why that made any difference aside from what people thought was some legal loophole. It still didn't make it ethically justifiable.

If there's a legal loophole, how is it then not ethically justifiable? Don't most people base ethics off of law? Ask Wall Street.

If this guy was going by the warning in front of movies, there might be a loophole since he was neither "reproducing" it (copying) nor "distributing" it (only making it viewable which isn't technically distribution).

Ethically, I have no problem with the site. I have a problem with that guy and the things he supposedly said and was trying to do...which may end up not being illegal, unfortunately.

DrMachine
05-06-2010, 11:54 AM
The issue with that is that if you're paying $1 for a comic on your iPad, then there are going to be a lot of people who won't pay $4 for the same content at the local comic shop.

It was different with music on iTunes because the cost of 10-14 tracks is roughly equivalent to the cost of a CD.
isn't the retail cost of a CD ~ 20$?

the initial itunes pricing brought prices to about 1/2 of that

I'd happily pay 1.50 rather than 3.00 for a digital comic (compared to physical).

bartleby
05-06-2010, 11:55 AM
isn't the retail cost of a CD ~ 20$?

No.

kylethoreau
05-06-2010, 11:56 AM
huh, never even heard of them. Either way I only ever downloaded Marvelman and Flex Mentallo anyways.

Yorick Brown
05-06-2010, 11:56 AM
The issue with that is that if you're paying $1 for a comic on your iPad, then there are going to be a lot of people who won't pay $4 for the same content at the local comic shop.

It was different with music on iTunes because the cost of 10-14 tracks is roughly equivalent to the cost of a CD.

Fair point. Not sure what the middle point is, but they should edge closer to it (though maybe they have).


madness!!! Omg@@!11@@

I'm not sure what you're mocking me for. So...well done?

Ab4dd0n
05-06-2010, 11:57 AM
isn't the retail cost of a CD ~ 20$?


The average seems to be about $12 now for new releases

HOOKS
05-06-2010, 11:57 AM
I remember the days when I couldn't afford something, and then adjusted my budget to be able to afford things, or find other cheaper avenues to afford things.

Is the comic industry losing readers? Sure. But the companies didn't start giving comics away. They began making adjustments. Collections in bookstores. Online comics. Free comic book day. Various retailer incentives.

Sampling comics is often used to liberally these days. Sampling usually means you don't get to keep it. Downloading comics means you keep the product, period. As a consumer, there are various legal avenues to sample comics prior to purchase. Weekly advanced previews on sites like CBR and Newsarama. Solicitations. Free comics on various publisher's websites. Hell, browsing at Borders or Barnes and Noble or your LCS to see what suits your tastes. If you want the product at a discount, there's eBay or DCBS. Some comic stores even offer discounts for subscribers.

Saying you want to sample comic books by downloading them is like going to the Mercedes Benz dealership, stealing an E350, and then promising the dealer and the manufacturer that you will buy an S550 down the line.

HOOKS
05-06-2010, 11:59 AM
As for the rarity issue, with comics like Marvelman and the like.

Well, they are rare for a reason. Just because you'd like to read them doesn't entitle you to steal them, especially when you could pay a comic shop or eBay seller the money to own said comics.

There is a lot of "I wants" and "I'd like tos" at play here, but reality is reality and the law is the law.

Michael-Deery
05-06-2010, 12:03 PM
Recieving something wothout paying for it is stealing. Stealing is against the law.

Where is the confusion?

kylethoreau
05-06-2010, 12:04 PM
if this was something that was expensive and in print I'd agree with you. But both titles I have are both disgustingly expensive (although I plan on getting Marvelman if it ever is rereleased) but it's also out of print, and both have been for what? 20 years? I fail to see how I'm ripping off DC and...I can't remember who published MM...since neither would make a cent if I bought it now.



EDIT: and now I think about it....why am I bothering? both titles I have were a disc given to me so I never actually downloaded JACK.

BWC Boston
05-06-2010, 12:08 PM
I don't understand. Why don't those 1.6 million downloaders just read their comics at Borders? Then everyone would get along!

bartleby
05-06-2010, 12:08 PM
if this was something that was expensive and in print I'd agree with you. But both titles I have are both disgustingly expensive (although I plan on getting Marvelman if it ever is rereleased) but it's also out of print, and both have been for what? 20 years? I fail to see how I'm ripping off DC and...I can't remember who published MM...since neither would make a cent if I bought it now.

Because even if it's out of print currently, readily available scans still remove potential future sales if the respective companies do decide to reprint those books. And the decrease in potential sales just lessens the likelihood of those books being re-released which hurts the people who were waiting on a proper, legal channel through which to purchase them.

babydave
05-06-2010, 12:08 PM
I think we're almost on the same page, but I do stand by the idea that these people were/are pirates. Why? Because they are viewing or consuming a creation in a way not authorized by the creators, without having purchased it first.

It was provided for them free of charge. The "pirate" is the one making the scans and sending them out for download or display. Those who download and/or display, I think, are just uninformed opportunists.

If some guy hands me a soda, I'm not gonna ask him if he stole it. I'm gonna say thanks and enjoy the soda.

I do think people making scans are "doing good work" because I'm for having digital copies of printed works. What happens to those scans afterward is another matter.


Do I have the right to then distribute the file to others? No.

I'm iffy on this part. It's not as simple as that. It just isn't. There's no point in trying to go into further detail as to why. Everyone knows where they stand and they're not gonna budge.

HOOKS
05-06-2010, 12:09 PM
Because even if it's out of print currently, readily available scans still remove potential future sales if the respective companies do decide to reprint those books. And the decrease in potential sales just lessens the likelihood of those books being re-released which hurts the people who were waiting on a proper, legal channel through which to purchase them.

It also hurts resellers such as comic book shop owners and collectors who have legally purchased copies available for legal trade.

babydave
05-06-2010, 12:12 PM
Recieving something wothout paying for it is stealing. Stealing is against the law.

Where is the confusion?

That is a simplistic view of things. It is also untrue.

bartleby
05-06-2010, 12:14 PM
That is a simplistic view of things. It is also untrue.

Knowingly taking possession of something that belongs to someone else without their permission is stealing.

Starocotes
05-06-2010, 12:14 PM
We have to keep topics seperate and not mix things up.

1. Digital distribution of comics
I will get an iPad (it will be available at the end of may here in germany) and I think the first apps will be Marvel and Comixology (I need to read Kick-Ass). I will use it to read free Webcomics (Girl Genius) and ebooks. But I also think that the pricing is still a bit awkward and I would like to use my digital subscription of Marvel Comics on the iPad.
I also think that the iPad will change many things in that regard but this takes time.

2. Piracy
All this in no means validates piracy in any way. Piracy, wether it is downloading ot watching online is theft and really not that different from stealing some physical ware.
The only difference is, that stealing stuff online is not as risky as stealing a candybar from a shop and exactly for that reason people who offer stolen stuff online have to be hunted by the law enforcement.

I found that people who pirate stuff use the point 1 above as a excuse and this is NOT valid so those arguments HAVE to kept seperate. Intelectual property is something that many people do not appreciate. The whole free software, free this and free that stuff on the net makes it harder and harder each day to help people recognize the work of people who work only with their mind.

Rod Nunley
05-06-2010, 12:14 PM
That is a simplistic view of things. It is also untrue.

No it's not. If you get something for free when the only legal way to get it is to purchase it then it's stealing.

And also, it's not a simplistic view of things. It's a legal view of things.

Simps
05-06-2010, 12:15 PM
Is the comic industry losing readers? Sure. But the companies didn't start giving comics away.

Well, technically...


Free comic book day.

..is giving comics away. But I understand the point you're making.

Michael-Deery
05-06-2010, 12:15 PM
That is a simplistic view of things. It is also untrue.

Stealing isn't against the law?

Rod Nunley
05-06-2010, 12:17 PM
Stealing isn't against the law?

Not if you really really like Batman.

bartleby
05-06-2010, 12:18 PM
What if you need those comic book scans to feed your starving children?

babydave
05-06-2010, 12:20 PM
Knowingly taking possession of something that belongs to someone else without their permission is stealing.

Yep. But I thought we were talking about downloading and viewing stuff online.

kylethoreau
05-06-2010, 12:21 PM
so, following this logic, Cth's Image thread is full of theft? I don't believe he bought any of those pictures.....

Michael-Deery
05-06-2010, 12:23 PM
Yep. But I thought we were talking about downloading and viewing stuff online.


We are. If you download scans you have the ability to read the comic and keep it.

babydave
05-06-2010, 12:24 PM
No it's not. If you get something for free when the only legal way to get it is to purchase it then it's stealing.

And also, it's not a simplistic view of things. It's a legal view of things.

That's a bit more detailed than the original statement. My original comment stands.


Stealing isn't against the law?

I should have deleted that bit, but I looked at it as a word equation so I didn't want to break it up. What was originally said was untrue, not what you just tried to make it say through selective interpretation.

Starocotes
05-06-2010, 12:26 PM
so, following this logic, Cth's Image thread is full of theft? I don't believe he bought any of those pictures.....That depends. If the originator of the image has provided it online without charge you can repost it with his permission. You cannot repost images that are copyrighted and actually some companys are very adamant about that.

With Comics that is a little bit more complicated. If the comic was not provided for free AND with the permission to copy it, it is against the law to put it up online.

bartleby
05-06-2010, 12:27 PM
Yep. But I thought we were talking about downloading and viewing stuff online.

Stop being obtuse.


You're reading a comic book without permission of the owner. That's stealing, even if you don't have something tangible to show for it.

babydave
05-06-2010, 12:28 PM
We are. If you download scans you have the ability to read the comic and keep it.

Then bartelby's specific wording doesn't apply because nothing was taken. Taking something means the original owner no longer has it.

Rod Nunley
05-06-2010, 12:28 PM
Yep. But I thought we were talking about downloading and viewing stuff online.

If you view it by downloading it without the owners permission it's theft. And you know that. What you're now trying to do is play a semantics game.

Downloading comics from someone other than an authorized comic site is against the law.

This is a fact. And in fact it's clearly against the law. Thats why this guys site got shut down ... because he was breaking the law.

If you're OK with being a thief then you should just nut up and say that you are fine with stealing comics (or movies or music) online.

Rod Nunley
05-06-2010, 12:31 PM
Then bartelby's specific wording doesn't apply because nothing was taken. Taking something means the original owner no longer has it.

Is it ironic if I ask you to stop acting like a baby and be an adultdave?

Because you are making a childlike argument about the fact that you apparently like to steal comics.

No wait ... let me agree with you instead.

Can you go ahead and send me your credit card number. You'll still have it in your wallet so what I use it to buy won't be stealing.

babydave
05-06-2010, 12:31 PM
Stop being obtuse.


You're reading a comic book without permission of the owner. That's stealing, even if you don't have something tangible to show for it.

No it isn't. Re-read what you wrote. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.

I'm not being obtuse; I'm being specific.

bartleby
05-06-2010, 12:33 PM
No it isn't. Re-read what you wrote. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.

I'm not being obtuse; I'm being specific.

You're pretty close to being on my ignore list.

Rod Nunley
05-06-2010, 12:35 PM
No it isn't. Re-read what you wrote. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.

I'm not being obtuse; I'm being specific.

What you're doing is not arguing the issue but the wording being used so you don't have to actually talk about the real issue.

Classic troll tactic.

kerryw
05-06-2010, 12:40 PM
I've never heard of the site but, if I'm honest I have dl'd comics in the past.

What I'd say is that I own both Brubaker Captain America omnibuses and I never would have bought them if I hadn't read the first 4/5 issues beforehand.

Because I liked that, I also bought the Criminal omnibus and Bru's Daredevil TP run.

I'm just not so sure this is a black and white issue.

If I hadn't downloaded those issues to read, that's a few $100 Marvel wouldn't have had from me.

TheKraken
05-06-2010, 12:40 PM
It is amazing how often I see that argument.

Are some of those people telling the truth? Maybe.

Most aren't. They are trying to justify stealing... especially to themselves.

Napster led directly to me becoming a paying customer for dozens of bands I'd never have tried otherwise. I would certainly agree that most people just steal to steal, but I would download 3 or 4 songs, and if I liked them, I did go buy the album. But back then, the music industry was nowhere near equipped to serve their audience online. The 30 second clips at CDNow weren't nearly as useful in deciding if you liked a band as downloading full songs. Now you can use a band's MySpace or Rhapsody or Last.fm or any number of things to do what I used Napster for. That justification of illegal downloading is mostly obsolete now. For music, anyway.

I think the comic book industry is way behind the curve. They've watched every other form of entertainment go digital, from books to TV shows, and done almost nothing. And to their credit, Marvel definitely seems more interested in trying to serve that audience than anybody else. But nothing currently available is the right solution yet. There's a lot of promise in Longbox, or the Marvel iPhone app, but they're not replacing my paper singles any time soon. It's crazy that it's taken this long for just hints of decent digital options to become available, and I think piracy is bound to increase sharply when the industry is fuckin' up.

Personally, I've never downloaded comics. And I can't wait until I can reliably go to a single source (like Longbox) for all the single issues I'm looking for from every publisher, or at least to a robust library for each publisher via some app. I'll quit paper singles and never look back. But there's a long way to go before that's a reality, and piracy will certainly thrive in the interim.

Rod Nunley
05-06-2010, 12:42 PM
I've never heard of the site but, if I'm honest I have dl'd comics in the past.

What I'd say is that I own both Brubaker Captain America omnibuses and I never would have bought them if I hadn't read the first 4/5 issues beforehand.

Because I liked that, I also bought the Criminal omnibus and Bru's Daredevil TP run.

I'm just not so sure this is a black and white issue.

If I hadn't downloaded those issues to read, that's a few $100 Marvel wouldn't have had from me.

But in reality you could have sampled the first couple of issues of any of those books by spending less than the cost of an omnibus.

They make these convenient 22 page samples you can pick up.

They're called comic books.

CS Ambrose
05-06-2010, 12:42 PM
You're all right. Downloading comics is wrong. It is theft. I do it.

After reading this and all of your comments I have decided to stop doing it. I'm sorry that I ever did it but honestly the best I can do by way of appology is to never do it again.

I started downloading while I was off work with helth problems and could no longer afford to buy my books any more. That was the first time I had not bought comics for 18 years. I started downloading just until I got back on my feet and sure enough, when I thought I could afford them again I was back in my regular comic shop and had set up my pull list again.

A few months ago I unfortunatly reached a point again where I could no longer afford to buy any comics and I started downloading again. Yeah, I know, boohoo. Poor me.

I love comics. Love them. And, without trying to be melodramatic, I feel genuinly guilty that I had to steal the thing I love. That being said, now that I have decided to no longer download comics, as guilty as I feel, it's no where near how heartbroken I am that I will no longer be able to read these things I love.

Please don't read this and think that I am trying to justify what I did but instead as an explanation and appology to those in the industry.

Michael-Deery
05-06-2010, 12:42 PM
I've never heard of the site but, if I'm honest I have dl'd comics in the past.

What I'd say is that I own both Brubaker Captain America omnibuses and I never would have bought them if I hadn't read the first 4/5 issues beforehand.

Because I liked that, I also bought the Criminal omnibus and Bru's Daredevil TP run.

I'm just not so sure this is a black and white issue.

If I hadn't downloaded those issues to read, that's a few $100 Marvel wouldn't have had from me.

If you were interested in his Cap work, why didn't you buy a few issues?

babydave
05-06-2010, 12:42 PM
If you view it by downloading it without the owners permission it's theft. And you know that. What you're now trying to do is play a semantics game.

I'm not playing semantics. I'm playing specifics.

I don't "know" anything of the sort, and I disagree with anyone and the law if it says unauthorized downloading equals theft.

Disagreeing with laws isn't anything new for me, if that's the case. I hold that an unauthorized download is available free of charge to any and all, and as a result I am not "stealing" anyting if I decided to download it.


Downloading comics from someone other than an authorized comic site is against the law.

If it is, it shouldn't be. Providing downloads of comics when you aren't the copyright holder is a different story.


This is a fact. And in fact it's clearly against the law. Thats why this guys site got shut down ... because he was breaking the law.

We'll see. People get arrested all the time and go free because they didn't break the law. He was charged but not yet convicted. It's still up in the air as to whether or not he broke the law.


If you're OK with being a thief then you should just nut up and say that you are fine with stealing comics (or movies or music) online.

I would if that were true. I'm not going to conform to your viewpoint and apply it to myself just because it'll make it easier for you. I don't "steal" anything online or anywhere else.

bradical
05-06-2010, 12:43 PM
You're pretty close to being on my ignore list.

don't reward him like that.

CS Ambrose
05-06-2010, 12:43 PM
Sorry about the spelling, I typed that on my phone.

Rod Nunley
05-06-2010, 12:47 PM
I'm not playing semantics. I'm playing specifics.

I don't "know" anything of the sort, and I disagree with anyone and the law if it says unauthorized downloading equals theft.

Disagreeing with laws isn't anything new for me, if that's the case. I hold that an unauthorized download is available free of charge to any and all, and as a result I am not "stealing" anyting if I decided to download it.

If it is, it shouldn't be. Providing downloads of comics when you aren't the copyright holder is a different story.

We'll see. People get arrested all the time and go free because they didn't break the law. He was charged but not yet convicted. It's still up in the air as to whether or not he broke the law.

I would if that were true. I'm not going to conform to your viewpoint and apply it to myself just because it'll make it easier for you. I don't "steal" anything online or anywhere else.

Is it against board policy to call you delusional? I know it would be against the board rules to call you something worse ... so I won't. But seriously, your user name is totally appropriate.

babydave
05-06-2010, 12:48 PM
You're pretty close to being on my ignore list.

Surprised I wasn't on it already. If you don't want to examine the things you say, that's up to you. "Ignoring" me for pointing out the obvious and allowing you to correct yourself says all I need to know about you.

You've done a good job of ignoring me elsewhere without using the button, dude. Do what you gotta do.

Rod Nunley
05-06-2010, 12:49 PM
You're all right. Downloading comics is wrong. It is theft. I do it.

After reading this and all of your comments I have decided to stop doing it. I'm sorry that I ever did it but honestly the best I can do by way of appology is to never do it again.

I started downloading while I was off work with helth problems and could no longer afford to buy my books any more. That was the first time I had not bought comics for 18 years. I started downloading just until I got back on my feet and sure enough, when I thought I could afford them again I was back in my regular comic shop and had set up my pull list again.

A few months ago I unfortunatly reached a point again where I could no longer afford to buy any comics and I started downloading again. Yeah, I know, boohoo. Poor me.

I love comics. Love them. And, without trying to be melodramatic, I feel genuinly guilty that I had to steal the thing I love. That being said, now that I have decided to no longer download comics, as guilty as I feel, it's no where near how heartbroken I am that I will no longer be able to read these things I love.

Please don't read this and think that I am trying to justify what I did but instead as an explanation and appology to those in the industry.

I totally feel your pain. I have had to stop reading comics due to money issues in the past. I would recommend sites like DCBS.com and comicbreak.com for books at pretty big discounts. I would also recommend checking out your local library. A lot of them have comics and trades to read. If they don't you might request them and have some success.

bartleby
05-06-2010, 12:49 PM
don't reward him like that.

The only reason I didn't do it a long time ago was because I figured it wouldn't take long for him to say something to get himself banned.

Rod Nunley
05-06-2010, 12:50 PM
Surprised I wasn't on it already. If you don't want to examine the things you say, that's up to you. "Ignoring" me for pointing out the obvious and allowing you to correct yourself says all I need to know about you.

You've done a good job of ignoring me elsewhere without using the button, dude. Do what you gotta do.

I have a feeling that you are not long for this board.

kerryw
05-06-2010, 12:50 PM
If you were interested in his Cap work, why didn't you buy a few issues?

Because I didn't know if I would be interested. And there's no comic shop near me.

babydave
05-06-2010, 12:51 PM
What you're doing is not arguing the issue but the wording being used so you don't have to actually talk about the real issue.

Classic troll tactic.

That's hilarious. Isn't changing the wording to create a new simplistic argument "not arguing the issue but the wording being used so you don't have to actually talk about the real issue"? Why am I a troll for responding to that cheat which so many in this thread have resorted to?

bradical
05-06-2010, 12:51 PM
The only reason I didn't do it a long time ago was because I figured it wouldn't take long for him to say something to get himself banned.

he's walking that thin line. won't be long.

Rod Nunley
05-06-2010, 12:51 PM
The only reason I didn't do it a long time ago was because I figured it wouldn't take long for him to say something to get himself banned.

Yeah.

SMVidaurri
05-06-2010, 12:51 PM
The argument as to whether downloading comics on that website should be classified as stealing or the people should be considered pirates is immaterial to the fact that downloading comic books on those websites does nothing to help the people that made those comic books.

There are avenues you can go through where you can support the creators, some people just chose not to.

If you want to argue that you are or are not taking money directly out of the comic creators pocket when you download, I don't think it matters. All I know is that when you download comics on that site you ARE DEFINITELY taking away the option to support the creators.

As Brian said quite well, if you don't support the people who make comic books, then you don't like comics.

babydave
05-06-2010, 12:55 PM
Is it against board policy to call you delusional? I know it would be against the board rules to call you something worse ... so I won't. But seriously, your user name is totally appropriate.

my username is a film reference. You are a funny person, and calling someone delusional rather than doing any critical thinking is more akin to what you're accusing me of.

CS Ambrose
05-06-2010, 12:55 PM
I totally feel your pain. I have had to stop reading comics due to money issues in the past. I would recommend sites like DCBS.com and comicbreak.com for books at pretty big discounts. I would also recommend checking out your local library. A lot of them have comics and trades to read. If they don't you might request them and have some success.

I'll check out those sites thanks, but honesty I still won't be able to read anything for quite some time. I am so close to completly broke it's terrifying.

CS Ambrose
05-06-2010, 12:56 PM
I'll check out those sites thanks, but honesty I still won't be able to read anything for quite some time. I am so close to completly broke it's terrifying.

Wow. Overshare. Sorry.

babydave
05-06-2010, 12:56 PM
The only reason I didn't do it a long time ago was because I figured it wouldn't take long for him to say something to get himself banned.

Coming from you, that's high praise indeed.

Michael-Deery
05-06-2010, 12:59 PM
I'm not playing semantics. I'm playing specifics.

I don't "know" anything of the sort, and I disagree with anyone and the law if it says unauthorized downloading equals theft.

Disagreeing with laws isn't anything new for me, if that's the case. I hold that an unauthorized download is available free of charge to any and all, and as a result I am not "stealing" anyting if I decided to download it.



If it is, it shouldn't be. Providing downloads of comics when you aren't the copyright holder is a different story.



We'll see. People get arrested all the time and go free because they didn't break the law. He was charged but not yet convicted. It's still up in the air as to whether or not he broke the law.



I would if that were true. I'm not going to conform to your viewpoint and apply it to myself just because it'll make it easier for you. I don't "steal" anything online or anywhere else.

What you're saying is pretty idiotic. You live in a society that have laws. Unauthorized downloads are against the law, that's not up to debate nor is it up to you.

The fact is that creators get paid based on how well their books sell. When you enjoy a book or a trade without paying for it, you are taking money from them. You have enjoyed their product and they have not benefitted from your enjoyment. That's not fair.

And the thing is, not everyone is a Brian Michael Bendis or a Ed Brubaker. They can probably survive some of this piracy, they shouldn't have to but they can. But there are creators who do lose their jobs because their books do not sell enough to make a big enough profit. Now if they lose their jobs because not enough people are reading it, fair enough. It's never nice when somebody loses their job but that's the industry they're in. However, if enough people are reading it but not enough are paying for it. That's a different story. The people illegally downloading that creators book have just cost him his job.

babydave
05-06-2010, 01:01 PM
I have a feeling that you are not long for this board.

Yes, truth and clarity do seem to be in short supply among the many threads here. Certain people have a knack for scaring off other people who disagree with the majority opinion of those with five-figure post counts.

mario
05-06-2010, 01:01 PM
T
As Brian said quite well, if you don't support the people who make comic books, then you don't like comics.

no it's not. That was a stupid argument.

You can spend your entire life reading comicbooks and never pay one cent royalty to said creators.

Starocotes
05-06-2010, 01:02 PM
Yes, truth and clarity do seem to be in short supply among the many threads here. Certain people have a knack for scaring off other people who disagree with the majority opinion of those with five-figure post counts.No, this is a board for comic fans. People who try to advocate downloading comics for free cannot be comic fans.

babydave
05-06-2010, 01:03 PM
he's walking that thin line. won't be long.

WHAT thin line?! I've read the rules, and I abide by them. I was given a warning for something that didn't even violate the rules. If there's a secret line, that's not my fault.

I'm only commenting on posts in the most truthful and honest way possible. How is that worth a ban?

Rod Nunley
05-06-2010, 01:09 PM
my username is a film reference. You are a funny person, and calling someone delusional rather than doing any critical thinking is more akin to what you're accusing me of.

I made a counter point to your position and you responded that it might be against the law but you don't like that law so it didn't matter.

So after that what's the point in critical thinking? If you're not putting any thought in your argument why should we?

mario
05-06-2010, 01:10 PM
What you're saying is pretty idiotic. You live in a society that have laws. Unauthorized downloads are against the law, that's not up to debate nor is it up to you.

The fact is that creators get paid based on how well their books sell.
that's not true. To most artists, inkers, colorists, letterers it doesn't matter how much a book sells, because they have a fixed pagerate and not a royalty clause in their contracts



When you enjoy a book or a trade without paying for it, you are taking money from them. You have enjoyed their product and they have not benefitted from your enjoyment. That's not fair.

So, do you pay for lending out a book from a library?



And the thing is, not everyone is a Brian Michael Bendis or a Ed Brubaker. They can probably survive some of this piracy, they shouldn't have to but they can. But there are creators who do lose their jobs because their books do not sell enough to make a big enough profit. Now if they lose their jobs because not enough people are reading it, fair enough. It's never nice when somebody loses their job but that's the industry they're in. However, if enough people are reading it but not enough are paying for it. That's a different story. The people illegally downloading that creators book have just cost him his job.

There is no study or correlation that concluded that piracy is resulting in drastic sales losses.

It is better to be read than not read at all.

Simps
05-06-2010, 01:11 PM
WHAT thin line?! I've read the rules, and I abide by them. I was given a warning for something that didn't even violate the rules. If there's a secret line, that's not my fault.

Saying that someone has posted something that makes you want to "punch him in the face" is not welcome on the board, and if you have such a hard time wrapping your head around why that is, then just go away.

babydave
05-06-2010, 01:12 PM
What you're saying is pretty idiotic. You live in a society that have laws. Unauthorized downloads are against the law, that's not up to debate nor is it up to you.

Thanks. Good to know fighting against established law is idiotic. Sorry, homosexuals who want to get married.

Any time a case goes to court it's up for debate. If you want to talk specific cases and actions, let's. If you want to keep preaching, go for it but I don't have to convert.


When you enjoy a book or a trade without paying for it, you are taking money from them.

Specificallly, untrue.


The people illegally downloading that creators book have just cost him his job.

Not supported in any way by actual fact, but not specifically untrue either.

Rod Nunley
05-06-2010, 01:12 PM
Yes, truth and clarity do seem to be in short supply among the many threads here. Certain people have a knack for scaring off other people who disagree with the majority opinion of those with five-figure post counts.

Truth and clarity? How are we supposed to deal in truth and clarity with a guy who breaks the law and then wants to tell us that it doesn't count because he doesn't like that law?

Again, just send me your credit card information so I can use it without your consent. It's not stealing because the card is still in your wallet. That's using your logic ... not ours.

A.Huerta
05-06-2010, 01:12 PM
Know what I do when I cant afford comics?

I save up some money to finally buy some.

Starocotes
05-06-2010, 01:14 PM
that's not true. To most artists, inkers, colorists, letterers it doesn't matter how much a book sells, because they have a fixed pagerate and not a royalty clause in their contracts


It is more complicated then that. Lets take that arguement to an extreme. If there is a writer that writes a comic and that comic is NOT bought only read on piracy sites, do you think that writer will get more or less paying jobs?

Comic book creators may not be payed acording to the sales, but they get better and more jobs if their book sell well.

Lord Jermaine Retail
05-06-2010, 01:15 PM
Comics piracy is really a double-edged sword. On the one hand, it is the illegal reproduction/distribution of copyrighted works without consideration or compensation of the original creators. On the other, scans of comics can help to promote comics and actually get fans to buy comics.

I was into comics when I was seven years old and stopped buying comics when I was twelve for reasons I'm not really sure of. When I was fifteen, I found scans of Ultimate Spider-Man on my brother's computer and read the entire series up to issue 60 or so in two or three days. I was hooked again. I started off with subscriptions to New Avengers and Amazing Spider-Man through Marvel and soon after returned to buying comics weekly at a store a few miles away from my house.

It's been five years since I found those scans. Today, I'm working at my local comic book store and I've been offered an internship at Marvel Comics in New York City. I've met creators and established friendships with people at Marvel and elsewhere in the comics world. I can't say that piracy is acceptable for everyone because it got me back into comics, but I can say that I'm not the only one who has started buying comics after reading scans.

Just my two cents. Also, I'm sorry for having read scans of your comics, Brian. But if I didn't, I'm not so sure I would have bought the first two Ultimate Collections and issues 86 - 120.

Congrats on the internship, but I would probably not mention that part when chatting with Marvel people about your background with comics. Just sayin'.

And welcome to our fair website and message board community.

Rod Nunley
05-06-2010, 01:15 PM
Thanks. Good to know fighting against established law is idiotic. Sorry, homosexuals who want to get married.


Are you seriously comparing stealing comics with gay marrige rights?

I apologize for my earlier remark. You're not delusional. You're just being willfully ignorant.

Raphael J
05-06-2010, 01:17 PM
If there's a legal loophole, how is it then not ethically justifiable? Don't most people base ethics off of law? Ask Wall Street.

If this guy was going by the warning in front of movies, there might be a loophole since he was neither "reproducing" it (copying) nor "distributing" it (only making it viewable which isn't technically distribution).

Ethically, I have no problem with the site. I have a problem with that guy and the things he supposedly said and was trying to do...which may end up not being illegal, unfortunately.

Yeah...that's not how copyright works. Copyright grants the exclusive right of reproduction. Essentially what that means is so long as he fixes a substantial portion of the work in a copy, which is defined as a material object in which a work is fixed in a sufficiently permanent or stable enough manner to permit it to be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated for a period of more than transitory duration, then he is infringing on their right.

He is not only liable as a direct infringer, but he will likely be seen as being a potential vicarious infringer, contributory infringer, and inducing infringer.

babydave
05-06-2010, 01:18 PM
I made a counter point to your position and you responded that it might be against the law but you don't like that law so it didn't matter.

No, I didn't. That's your selective interpretation of what I said. I said I disagree with the law (if it does exist). That's far from "don't like so it doesn't matter."


So after that what's the point in critical thinking? If you're not putting any thought in your argument why should we?

I can't stop you from forming your own opinions through your own interpretations, but I've put plenty of thought into this discussion and I resent the implication otherwise.

Rod Nunley
05-06-2010, 01:18 PM
It is more complicated then that. Lets take that arguement to an extreme. If there is a writer that writes a comic and that comic is NOT bought only read on piracy sites, do you think that writer will get more or less paying jobs?

Comic book creators may not be payed acording to the sales, but they get better and more jobs if their book sell well.

See that's a valid point but it won't matter because he's not interested in making any points on his own. He just wants to shit on other peoples points.

I have yet to hear him make an argument as to why it alright to break the law and download comics.

HOOKS
05-06-2010, 01:19 PM
Know what I do when I cant afford comics?

I save up some money to finally buy some.

Know what I do when I can't afford a house?

Break into someone else's house. Sleep on the bed, eat the food, watch the TV.

What? I'm just sampling it. I'll buy a much nicer, bigger house later. I am doing them a favor.

Treacle
05-06-2010, 01:19 PM
I totally feel your pain. I have had to stop reading comics due to money issues in the past. I would recommend sites like DCBS.com and comicbreak.com for books at pretty big discounts. I would also recommend checking out your local library. A lot of them have comics and trades to read. If they don't you might request them and have some success.

This.

If you can't afford to buy comics, don't buy them. Save up your money for the trades or whatever. But don't use "I'm broke" as an excuse to steal.

Rod Nunley
05-06-2010, 01:20 PM
No, I didn't. That's your selective interpretation of what I said. I said I disagree with the law (if it does exist). That's far from "don't like so it doesn't matter."

Ignorantia juris non excusat or Ignorantia legis neminem excusat (Latin for "ignorance of the law does not excuse" or "ignorance of the law excuses no one") is a legal principle holding that a person who is unaware of a law may not escape liability for violating that law merely because he or she was unaware of its content.

SMVidaurri
05-06-2010, 01:20 PM
no it's not. That was a stupid argument.

You can spend your entire life reading comicbooks and never pay one cent royalty to said creators.

I think that's a pretty short sighted view. Of course when I buy a comic my money does not make a direct transaction into the creators account, that is not what I was saying. But whether you pay the comic companies, the stores that buy them, trade paper backs and a convention, somewhere down the line support is getting to the creators.

Though, if you download them, there is no option to support anyone.

babydave
05-06-2010, 01:21 PM
Saying that someone has posted something that makes you want to "punch him in the face" is not welcome on the board, and if you have such a hard time wrapping your head around why that is, then just go away.

That's not what I said, Simpson, and you know it because I spent time and effort trying to explain it to you. Not my fault that you wouldn't listen, and I think you're out of line for bringing that here in such a specific fashion. I'd report you, but I don't see the police police listed anywhere.

babydave
05-06-2010, 01:22 PM
Truth and clarity? How are we supposed to deal in truth and clarity with a guy who breaks the law and then wants to tell us that it doesn't count because he doesn't like that law?


Assumptions and selective interpretation. You should work on that.

Treacle
05-06-2010, 01:23 PM
That's not what I said, Simpson, and you know it because I spent time and effort trying to explain it to you. Not my fault that you wouldn't listen, and I think you're out of line for bringing that here in such a specific fashion. I'd report you, but I don't see the police police listed anywhere.

Go read the rules (http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/announcement.php?f=8&a=7).

Rod Nunley
05-06-2010, 01:24 PM
Another classic troll tactic: When presented with a statement of fact that you can't argue against you can simply ignore it and hope it goes away.

I notice that babydave has done this a couple of times now. I make two points in a post and he only responds to the one he believes he can argue or dismantle with semantics.

All the while avoiding addressing any real points.

Well played board trolls of the world. Well played. ;)

panco
05-06-2010, 01:24 PM
What could have been an interesting topic is being derailed by massive trolling.

Rod Nunley
05-06-2010, 01:25 PM
Assumptions and selective interpretation. You should work on that.

Using your brain for real discussion ...

babydave
05-06-2010, 01:25 PM
Are you seriously comparing stealing comics with gay marrige rights?

I apologize for my earlier remark. You're not delusional. You're just being willfully ignorant.

wow... you're an expert at pot-kettle comments.

I'm comparing law to law. You can't seem to comprehend why I'm arguing about the application of a specific law, and think I'm delusional for it. I used another example of why that's a good thing. Where's the problem? Of course I don't think civil rights is the same as copyright law, but I wasn't making that argument. I was making the argument that laws are always up for debate and it's not delusional to disagree with them.

Rod Nunley
05-06-2010, 01:26 PM
What could have been an interesting topic is being derailed by massive trolling.

Agreed.

A.Huerta
05-06-2010, 01:27 PM
The only things i would ever steal would be food. And thats if I need to survive.

Stealing comics, tho? Fuckin' lame.

Christopher Brian
05-06-2010, 01:27 PM
That's not what I said, Simpson, and you know it because I spent time and effort trying to explain it to you. Not my fault that you wouldn't listen, and I think you're out of line for bringing that here in such a specific fashion. I'd report you, but I don't see the police police listed anywhere.

:bansign:

Lord Jermaine Retail
05-06-2010, 01:27 PM
I don't see how putting comics up to be read is a crime. Downloading yes but reading? I don't understand. If I scanned my collection and put my entire collection up - that is illegal? Even if I have no ads to profit from? Even if you could only read the copies? Then I guess I cant lend my books to my friends. I did not use the Html Comics site as a free way to read the comics that I normally buy. I used it read titles That I normally would NOT buy. And would never buy even from a used book store or bargain bin. Not sure how that is taking money out of creators pockets. I now have more appreciation for the character (Alias) and most likely buy comics that feature her. Html Comics should have not used illegal copies in it's library. That was wrong. Can you imagine going to a library that had only knock-off copies of books? Just my 2 cents, I can't speak for everybody.

I think, and this is something that I have not been able to articulate well and will probably fumble it here, is that with comics for some reason people are weird about what the product is. To some people, the comic book is the product, the trade, the hardcover. To me, the product, the real product is the content, the story that an artist drew, inker embellished, colorist colored, letterer lettered. This is the true product. The comic book, the tpb, the hardcover, the digital version, that's the vehicle through which the product reaches the person who paid for it.

There's a legend out there of a concept called..well, called "Creator-stealing" and what it basically says is that if you go into a comic shop, Barnes and Noble, or in this case a comic scan website and you take in the complete contents of an issue, read it cover to cover completely, then you have in an abstract way stolen the product. You didn't pay, but you took everything element of the product. Like going into Walmart and drinking a two liter of Coke and putting the bottle back on the shelf. With Coke, the soda is the product and the bottle is the vessel for it. With comics, the story and the art are the product has a cost to it and the vehicle is whatever it is. I don't believe in the principle to the point that I'm yelling out to people "Hey, this ain't no liberry!" but at the same time, within the context of comic books, I think it is a real concept and is sound. But few will ever see reading a complete book or reading an illegal scan as absorbing the work of the writer, artist, and others. They'll just see it as reading a book that was already there to be read.

Rod Nunley
05-06-2010, 01:27 PM
wow... you're an expert at pot-kettle comments.

I'm comparing law to law. You can't seem to comprehend why I'm arguing about the application of a specific law, and think I'm delusional for it. I used another example of why that's a good thing. Where's the problem? Of course I don't think civil rights is the same as copyright law, but I wasn't making that argument. I was making the argument that laws are always up for debate and it's not delusional to disagree with them.

Sure. But you're not debating the law. You're just trolling. Show me somewhere in here where you have made a point or argument as to why downloading unpaid for comics should be legal?

babydave
05-06-2010, 01:28 PM
Yeah...that's not how copyright works. Copyright grants the exclusive right of reproduction. Essentially what that means is so long as he fixes a substantial portion of the work in a copy, which is defined as a material object in which a work is fixed in a sufficiently permanent or stable enough manner to permit it to be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated for a period of more than transitory duration, then he is infringing on their right.

He is not only liable as a direct infringer, but he will likely be seen as being a potential vicarious infringer, contributory infringer, and inducing infringer.

Good. I don't like him. He was a dick to Colleen Doran.

Thanks for the extra detail. All I was saying was whether or not he, as an individual, thought he found a loophole by that particular reading of the law. It was just a guess, and I was curious about a potential loophole since bartelby mentioned it as a possible justification.

babydave
05-06-2010, 01:30 PM
Ignorantia juris non excusat or Ignorantia legis neminem excusat (Latin for "ignorance of the law does not excuse" or "ignorance of the law excuses no one") is a legal principle holding that a person who is unaware of a law may not escape liability for violating that law merely because he or she was unaware of its content.

That has nothing to do with my comment, but thanks for the legalese.

SMVidaurri
05-06-2010, 01:30 PM
So, do you pay for lending out a book from a library?

You don't buy the library does. Libraries are subsidized by the government and they use this money to buy books. So yes, money is still being paid for that book.

Michael-Deery
05-06-2010, 01:31 PM
that's not true. To most artists, inkers, colorists, letterers it doesn't matter how much a book sells, because they have a fixed pagerate and not a royalty clause in their contracts

So if they're book sells 70,000 copies instead of 30,000 those creators would be unable to negociate better deals?




So, do you pay for lending out a book from a library?

No, but that is legal.


There is no study or correlation that concluded that piracy is resulting in drastic sales losses.

I never said there was. I just said that if someone loses their job because the level of profit on their product does not match the level of conumption then you have stole their living. They have done the work and provided the level of enjoment and interest to maintain their job but have not been given the reward.


It is better to be read than not read at all.

You reading without paying doesn't pay their rent or advance their careers.

Starocotes
05-06-2010, 01:32 PM
wow... you're an expert at pot-kettle comments.

I'm comparing law to law. You can't seem to comprehend why I'm arguing about the application of a specific law, and think I'm delusional for it. I used another example of why that's a good thing. Where's the problem? Of course I don't think civil rights is the same as copyright law, but I wasn't making that argument. I was making the argument that laws are always up for debate and it's not delusional to disagree with them.It depends on the law. How would you describe someone who debate the law against murder, torture or something like that?

Yes, certain laws should be examined from time to time, but to debate against the copyright law on a board of people who benefit from the copyright law is not very wise.

My earlier post still stands, the growing wish for free stuff and against the recognition of intelectual property is something that bothers me a lot.

Lord Jermaine Retail
05-06-2010, 01:33 PM
huh, never even heard of them. Either way I only ever downloaded Marvelman and Flex Mentallo anyways.

I hate that those things are not readily available to the public through conventional means. In theory Miracle Man, the Alan Moore stuff, will be in time. But unless you find issues or that international trade, Grant Morrison fans will never be able to read Flex or have it on their bookshelves.

babydave
05-06-2010, 01:34 PM
Go read the rules (http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/announcement.php?f=8&a=7).

I did that before I ever posted on the board. Thanks. I haven't violated any of them. Ever. I believe other people have and nothing was done about it.

That's the way it goes, I guess.

Christopher Brian
05-06-2010, 01:34 PM
I think, and this is something that I have not been able to articulate well and will probably fumble it here, is that with comics for some reason people are weird about what the product is. To some people, the comic book is the product, the trade, the hardcover. To me, the product, the real product is the content, the story that an artist drew, inker embellished, colorist colored, letterer lettered. This is the true product. The comic book, the tpb, the hardcover, the digital version, that's the vehicle through which the product reaches the person who paid for it.

There's a legend out there of a concept called..well, called "Creator-stealing" and what it basically says is that if you go into a comic shop, Barnes and Noble, or in this case a comic scan website and you take in the complete contents of an issue, read it cover to cover completely, then you have in an abstract way stolen the product. You didn't pay, but you took everything element of the product. Like going into Walmart and drinking a two liter of Coke and putting the bottle back on the shelf. With Coke, the soda is the product and the bottle is the vessel for it. With comics, the story and the art are the product has a cost to it and the vehicle is whatever it is. I don't believe in the principle to the point that I'm yelling out to people "Hey, this ain't no liberry!" but at the same time, within the context of comic books, I think it is a real concept and is sound. But few will ever see reading a complete book or reading an illegal scan as absorbing the work of the writer, artist, and others. They'll just see it as reading a book that was already there to be read.

Good post. I've been working on a full run of Uncanny X-Men for a few years now. Some of the books are pricey. I really want to read them. I either catch sales at cons or I save up and pay the price that the scarceness of the product demands. The creators created something and if supply and demand drives up the price its not an excuse for me to steal the work and read it.

Simps
05-06-2010, 01:34 PM
That's not what I said, Simpson, and you know it because I spent time and effort trying to explain it to you. Not my fault that you wouldn't listen, and I think you're out of line for bringing that here in such a specific fashion. I'd report you, but I don't see the police police listed anywhere.

That's actually verbatim what you said, and I didn't try and skew the context in which it was said. It's not "out of line for bringing that here" if you're the one that cried about how you felt you were unjustly warned for your actions.

Michael-Deery
05-06-2010, 01:35 PM
Thanks. Good to know fighting against established law is idiotic. Sorry, homosexuals who want to get married.

You really want to compare downloading comic to bigotry?


Any time a case goes to court it's up for debate. If you want to talk specific cases and actions, let's. If you want to keep preaching, go for it but I don't have to convert.

Present a case for why it should be legal.



Specificallly, untrue.
So you keep saying. Without ever saying why

Lord Jermaine Retail
05-06-2010, 01:35 PM
As for the rarity issue, with comics like Marvelman and the like.

Well, they are rare for a reason. Just because you'd like to read them doesn't entitle you to steal them, especially when you could pay a comic shop or eBay seller the money to own said comics.

There is a lot of "I wants" and "I'd like tos" at play here, but reality is reality and the law is the law.

You're a hard man, Hooks. This board needs more like you out there keepin it real for all us sinners.

Raphael J
05-06-2010, 01:38 PM
My earlier post still stands, the growing wish for free stuff and against the recognition of intelectual property is something that bothers me a lot.

This is the direction the world is going in. The internet made the possibility of sharing something with a friend, whether it's a videogame, movie, or comic, possible on a global scale. Right now, sites like Hulu are playing with how to monetize free content, but companies are understandably terrified by the way new media works.

Technology is changing too rapidly for there to be any real sense of where things are headed. It could all go a la carte, on a subscription basis, or a flat tax/fee on anyone who uses the internet. The law has yet to really catch up to the technology and things like fair use, which is what lets you put your cd inventory onto your iPod, is going to get tested and may prove to be a failed doctrine. Cases like Viacom V. Youtube and where net neutrality is headed are of great importance for a variety of reasons, but either way I think we'll see the law try to slow down the acceptance of free content.

Treacle
05-06-2010, 01:38 PM
I did that before I ever posted on the board. Thanks. I haven't violated any of them. Ever. I believe other people have and nothing was done about it.

That's the way it goes, I guess.

Then did you catch the very first paragraph in the rules?

"First and foremost, instructions by the moderators and administrators are to be followed. If you fail to follow these instructions you will be subject to censure, temporary ban (suspension) or permanent banning. The decisions of the moderators and administrators are final. We reserve the right to ban anyone who willfully violates the forum rules, as access to our forums is a privilege and not a right."

Simpson's a mod. The mod told you your statement was inappropriate. The correct response is to apologize and/or fix that behavior...not to whine and complain.

babydave
05-06-2010, 01:38 PM
I think, and this is something that I have not been able to articulate well and will probably fumble it here, is that with comics for some reason people are weird about what the product is. To some people, the comic book is the product, the trade, the hardcover. To me, the product, the real product is the content, the story that an artist drew, inker embellished, colorist colored, letterer lettered. This is the true product. The comic book, the tpb, the hardcover, the digital version, that's the vehicle through which the product reaches the person who paid for it.

There's a legend out there of a concept called..well, called "Creator-stealing" and what it basically says is that if you go into a comic shop, Barnes and Noble, or in this case a comic scan website and you take in the complete contents of an issue, read it cover to cover completely, then you have in an abstract way stolen the product. You didn't pay, but you took everything element of the product. Like going into Walmart and drinking a two liter of Coke and putting the bottle back on the shelf. With Coke, the soda is the product and the bottle is the vessel for it. With comics, the story and the art are the product has a cost to it and the vehicle is whatever it is. I don't believe in the principle to the point that I'm yelling out to people "Hey, this ain't no liberry!" but at the same time, within the context of comic books, I think it is a real concept and is sound. But few will ever see reading a complete book or reading an illegal scan as absorbing the work of the writer, artist, and others. They'll just see it as reading a book that was already there to be read.

That's the first time I've heard fo that concept. Very interesting, but wouldn't it apply to libraries too? Whether you read it in a book store or check it out from a library, the result is the same.

Thanks for posting that. Might be the most interesting comment/post I've read in a while.

Lord Jermaine Retail
05-06-2010, 01:38 PM
It was provided for them free of charge. The "pirate" is the one making the scans and sending them out for download or display. Those who download and/or display, I think, are just uninformed opportunists.

If some guy hands me a soda, I'm not gonna ask him if he stole it. I'm gonna say thanks and enjoy the soda.

I do think people making scans are "doing good work" because I'm for having digital copies of printed works. What happens to those scans afterward is another matter.



I'm iffy on this part. It's not as simple as that. It just isn't. There's no point in trying to go into further detail as to why. Everyone knows where they stand and they're not gonna budge.
As for your soda example, I may very well ask if the thing was stolen. Depending on the circumstance, yeah. And if it was, I wouldn't take it and I would make the other person put things right. But then I live by a weird code of honor that make sense to me alone.

I feel like since you're from North Carolina, everyone is looking at me here.

HOOKS
05-06-2010, 01:42 PM
You're a hard man, Hooks.

That's what she said. :cool:

Rod Nunley
05-06-2010, 01:42 PM
No, I didn't. That's your selective interpretation of what I said. I said I disagree with the law (if it does exist). That's far from "don't like so it doesn't matter."


Ignorantia juris non excusat or Ignorantia legis neminem excusat (Latin for "ignorance of the law does not excuse" or "ignorance of the law excuses no one") is a legal principle holding that a person who is unaware of a law may not escape liability for violating that law merely because he or she was unaware of its content.


That has nothing to do with my comment, but thanks for the legalese.

Well then baby ( babydave is such a long name ... can I just call you baby? ) let me explain it to you.

If you look up at the top there you will see that you have put "if it does exist" in your sentence about disagreeing with a law. You are implying with this "if it does exist" statement that you think that it may not even be an actual law.

You did this after several people pointed out that it's clearly against the law to download comics that you haven't paid for.

It's a bit funny that you implied that the law might not exist because clearly this thread wouldn't even exist if this guy's website had not been shut down and he had not been arrested for breaking the law that says you can't download things that aren't free unless you've paid for them.

It's kind of like that whole mess with the RIAA. Maybe you've heard something about that at some point.

Anyway.

What you did was side step the argument that it's clearly against the law by claiming ignorance of the law and therefore implying that if you didn't think it was against the law that you were going to go ahead and do what you wanted to do.

Steal comics online.

So what I did was point out that in the United States it's a pretty well documented fact that ignorance of the law is not a valid defense of breaking the law.

Let me know if you need any further explanation on any of this. I tried to go slowly so you would understand. But I know how real discussion or ideas can be a little daunting or confusing to you.

Lord Jermaine Retail
05-06-2010, 01:42 PM
It also hurts resellers such as comic book shop owners and collectors who have legally purchased copies available for legal trade.

People, not regular but sometimes newer people, who tell me that they'll "just download it" make no sense to me. How are you gonna tell someone who's job is to sell something that you'll just not only go get it somewhere else, but you'll also do it for free? I don't think anyone who has ever said anything like that or about Amazon or eBay has meant it in "that" way, but I think that's one of the worst things someone can say to me in the shop and I tend not to forget about it.

Starocotes
05-06-2010, 01:44 PM
That's the first time I've heard fo that concept. Very interesting, but wouldn't it apply to libraries too? Whether you read it in a book store or check it out from a library, the result is the same.


The books in a library are paid for in one way or another and provided for exactly that reason. This can be compared with free meals for poor people. They don't steal the food either.

SMVidaurri
05-06-2010, 01:44 PM
That's the first time I've heard fo that concept. Very interesting, but wouldn't it apply to libraries too? Whether you read it in a book store or check it out from a library, the result is the same.

Libraries pay for books. It is a common misconception that libraries are "free." I said it before but, Libraries are subsidized by the government and they use this money to buy books. So because libraries DO pay for books, the result is NOT the same.

babydave
05-06-2010, 01:45 PM
How would you describe someone who debate the law against murder, torture or something like that?

Without further information? Lawyer.


Yes, certain laws should be examined from time to time, but to debate against the copyright law on a board of people who benefit from the copyright law is not very wise.

probably true, but that's where the topic most often comes up. People think I'm an asshole because of the way I reply to things, but what I'm mostly trying to do is get them to re-examine what they said rather than try to force-feed the information and their opinions to them. Most people don't do that (even when I blatantly give them the opportunity and reason to do so), and I eventually stop trying. That's life on the internet, for ya.


the growing wish for free stuff and against the recognition of intelectual property is something that bothers me a lot.

It's certainly a cause for concern, and a topic which causes frequent and *interesting* debates.

Raphael J
05-06-2010, 01:45 PM
I think, and this is something that I have not been able to articulate well and will probably fumble it here, is that with comics for some reason people are weird about what the product is. To some people, the comic book is the product, the trade, the hardcover. To me, the product, the real product is the content, the story that an artist drew, inker embellished, colorist colored, letterer lettered. This is the true product. The comic book, the tpb, the hardcover, the digital version, that's the vehicle through which the product reaches the person who paid for it.

There's a legend out there of a concept called..well, called "Creator-stealing" and what it basically says is that if you go into a comic shop, Barnes and Noble, or in this case a comic scan website and you take in the complete contents of an issue, read it cover to cover completely, then you have in an abstract way stolen the product. You didn't pay, but you took everything element of the product. Like going into Walmart and drinking a two liter of Coke and putting the bottle back on the shelf. With Coke, the soda is the product and the bottle is the vessel for it. With comics, the story and the art are the product has a cost to it and the vehicle is whatever it is. I don't believe in the principle to the point that I'm yelling out to people "Hey, this ain't no liberry!" but at the same time, within the context of comic books, I think it is a real concept and is sound. But few will ever see reading a complete book or reading an illegal scan as absorbing the work of the writer, artist, and others. They'll just see it as reading a book that was already there to be read.

This isn't specific to comics. "Creator stealing" is pretty much the entirety of Youtube. I think a big part of why people are more up-in-arms about it in the comic world is because fans are incredibly passionate about the product and there is an alarmist sense that the comic world is on its last legs, even though I am certain that the comic community is made of much stronger stuff than this.

With your coke example, people feel it's okay because it's still up there for someone else to buy. The coke isn't empty when you read a comic off the shelf. However, it can, above many other forms of media, be considered as a lost sale. Movies, music, and tv can't be browsed in the store before purchase. If you're disappointed, you're disappointed and have a copy of something you want. But with the publishing world, you can put it back on the shelf and that is very real for retailers. I'd be interested to know if this guy thinks all he's doing is letting people read it off the shelf, but just extending that right to the online world.

babydave
05-06-2010, 01:49 PM
That's actually verbatim what you said, and I didn't try and skew the context in which it was said. It's not "out of line for bringing that here" if you're the one that cried about how you felt you were unjustly warned for your actions.

I knew you were gonna say that.

I only object to you getting specific and using it to frame me as a violent crazy-person when what I said was in jest which I then explained to you at some length. That's not "actually verbatim what you said", and you did skew the context in this thread. However, just like our private exchange, you won't listen, so what can I do about it? Nothing.

moving along....

CS Ambrose
05-06-2010, 01:50 PM
Know what I do when I cant afford comics?

I save up some money to finally buy some.

That's not possible for everyone.

babydave
05-06-2010, 01:51 PM
Then did you catch the very first paragraph in the rules?

"First and foremost, instructions by the moderators and administrators are to be followed. If you fail to follow these instructions you will be subject to censure, temporary ban (suspension) or permanent banning. The decisions of the moderators and administrators are final. We reserve the right to ban anyone who willfully violates the forum rules, as access to our forums is a privilege and not a right."

Simpson's a mod. The mod told you your statement was inappropriate. The correct response is to apologize and/or fix that behavior...not to whine and complain.

That's an interesting interpretation you have there. I followed the rules. That's all I can say.

Treacle
05-06-2010, 01:51 PM
That's not possible for everyone.

Please explain.

Rod Nunley
05-06-2010, 01:51 PM
That's not possible for everyone.

Sometimes ya just got to go without my friend. It sucks (and I've done it) but then you have good stuff to catch up on in trade when you do get more money.

I really feel your pain.

Raphael J
05-06-2010, 01:53 PM
That's not possible for everyone.

It sucks boss, but people aren't entitled to free stuff. That isn't a right we were magically given by the internet. However, in the next few years we might see entertainment become dramatically cheaper so hopefully that'll be possible for everyone.

edwardmblake
05-06-2010, 01:55 PM
I think, and this is something that I have not been able to articulate well and will probably fumble it here, is that with comics for some reason people are weird about what the product is. To some people, the comic book is the product, the trade, the hardcover. To me, the product, the real product is the content, the story that an artist drew, inker embellished, colorist colored, letterer lettered. This is the true product. The comic book, the tpb, the hardcover, the digital version, that's the vehicle through which the product reaches the person who paid for it.

There's a legend out there of a concept called..well, called "Creator-stealing" and what it basically says is that if you go into a comic shop, Barnes and Noble, or in this case a comic scan website and you take in the complete contents of an issue, read it cover to cover completely, then you have in an abstract way stolen the product. You didn't pay, but you took everything element of the product. Like going into Walmart and drinking a two liter of Coke and putting the bottle back on the shelf. With Coke, the soda is the product and the bottle is the vessel for it. With comics, the story and the art are the product has a cost to it and the vehicle is whatever it is. I don't believe in the principle to the point that I'm yelling out to people "Hey, this ain't no liberry!" but at the same time, within the context of comic books, I think it is a real concept and is sound. But few will ever see reading a complete book or reading an illegal scan as absorbing the work of the writer, artist, and others. They'll just see it as reading a book that was already there to be read.

These are good points that I would like to here Marvel's official take on them. Speaking of similar things, I wonder what Marvel, et.al, think about artists drawing company owned characters in commissions.

babydave
05-06-2010, 02:00 PM
As for your soda example, I may very well ask if the thing was stolen. Depending on the circumstance, yeah. And if it was, I wouldn't take it and I would make the other person put things right. But then I live by a weird code of honor that make sense to me alone.

I feel like since you're from North Carolina, everyone is looking at me here.

Okay, what if it's one of your customers? they just decide to bring you a soda when they pick up their comics? If it's a meth-head trying to sell it to you for $0.25, then there's reasonable suspicion. You don't know if your customer stole it. I would've said "friend", but then someone would've said that downloading is not like getting something from your friend, etc...so I tried to find a close example that's not friend and not weirdo on the street.

A guy offered to sell me some CDs in downtown Portland once. I declined because I felt there was a good chance he was a meth-head that stole them. I'm not an unreasonable bastard.


But then I live by a weird code of honor that make sense to me alone.

So do I, apparently.

And don't worry, I'm not "from" NC. I just live here currently.

Anyway, I think "depending on circumstance" is something that a lot of people posting in this thread don't want to acknowledge.

Lord Jermaine Retail
05-06-2010, 02:00 PM
Good post. I've been working on a full run of Uncanny X-Men for a few years now. Some of the books are pricey. I really want to read them. I either catch sales at cons or I save up and pay the price that the scarceness of the product demands. The creators created something and if supply and demand drives up the price its not an excuse for me to steal the work and read it.

Well yeah. It all boils down to the fact that some people in this life want to have it, have it all, but pay for nothing. Earn nothing. Just have it all and have it delivered to them. In most areas of life, that doesn't work. Either you can't have the best stuff, you have to have what you can when you can, or you're having the best stuff, but you're doing something to some varying degree of wrong to get it. And all you can see is the end result of you having stuff, 'cause you're 'sposed to have it, and whatever you did to get there it you kind of don't think about it. Sure, I'm over-complicating, but not exactly.

bartleby
05-06-2010, 02:01 PM
That's not "actually verbatim what you said", and you did skew the context in this thread. However, just like our private exchange, you won't listen, so what can I do about it? Nothing.

:lol:


You're trying really hard to see how far you can push without getting banned.

CS Ambrose
05-06-2010, 02:02 PM
And people aren't entitled to free stuff. That isn't a right we were magically given by the internet.

I wasn't saying that having no money justified theft. I was just saying that if you can't afford comics in the first place you might not be able to save up to buy comics or trades. I'll have to wait to my birthday and even then I'll maybe only be able to afford 5 or 6 trades with vouchers I recieve.

For some (like me) if you don't download, then you will have to stop reading comics all together. Just to reiterate an earlier post: I will no longer be downloading comics illegaly and am devistated that I cannot buy these things I love.

Rod Nunley
05-06-2010, 02:02 PM
:lol:


You're trying really hard to see how far you can push without getting banned.

Bart. Be quiet. Let the man speak.

bartleby
05-06-2010, 02:03 PM
Okay, what if it's one of your customers? they just decide to bring you a soda when they pick up their comics? If it's a meth-head trying to sell it to you for $0.25, then there's reasonable suspicion. You don't know if your customer stole it. I would've said "friend", but then someone would've said that downloading is not like getting something from your friend, etc...so I tried to find a close example that's not friend and not weirdo on the street.

If you're reading scanned comics on some website you've never heard of, isn't it reasonable to think that it's probably not authorized by the owner of that content?

Rod Nunley
05-06-2010, 02:03 PM
I wasn't saying that having no money justified theft. I was just saying that if you can't afford comics in the first place you might not be able to save up to buy comics or trades. I'll have to wait to my birthday and even then I'll maybe only be able to afford 5 or 6 trades with vouchers I recieve.

For some (like me) if you don't download, then you will have to stop reading comics all together. Just to reiterate an earlier post: I will no longer be downloading comics illegaly and am devistated that I cannot buy these things I love.

Couple of questions for you. How old are you? Are you a student?

Taxman
05-06-2010, 02:05 PM
Seriously-- I was surprised it survived as long as it did.Still, it is pretty funny when a group is completely defiant and end up taking the hammer like this.

Taxman
05-06-2010, 02:07 PM
This, emphasis on download, not browse online.I'm sure you'll still be able to find work, Geygor. :p

Rod Nunley
05-06-2010, 02:08 PM
No, I didn't. That's your selective interpretation of what I said. I said I disagree with the law (if it does exist). That's far from "don't like so it doesn't matter."


Ignorantia juris non excusat or Ignorantia legis neminem excusat (Latin for "ignorance of the law does not excuse" or "ignorance of the law excuses no one") is a legal principle holding that a person who is unaware of a law may not escape liability for violating that law merely because he or she was unaware of its content.


That has nothing to do with my comment, but thanks for the legalese.


Well then baby ( babydave is such a long name ... can I just call you baby? ) let me explain it to you.

If you look up at the top there you will see that you have put "if it does exist" in your sentence about disagreeing with a law. You are implying with this "if it does exist" statement that you think that it may not even be an actual law.

You did this after several people pointed out that it's clearly against the law to download comics that you haven't paid for.

It's a bit funny that you implied that the law might not exist because clearly this thread wouldn't even exist if this guy's website had not been shut down and he had not been arrested for breaking the law that says you can't download things that aren't free unless you've paid for them.

It's kind of like that whole mess with the RIAA. Maybe you've heard something about that at some point.

Anyway.

What you did was side step the argument that it's clearly against the law by claiming ignorance of the law and therefore implying that if you didn't think it was against the law that you were going to go ahead and do what you wanted to do.

Steal comics online.

So what I did was point out that in the United States it's a pretty well documented fact that ignorance of the law is not a valid defense of breaking the law.

Let me know if you need any further explanation on any of this. I tried to go slowly so you would understand. But I know how real discussion or ideas can be a little daunting or confusing to you.

Just to be clear here baby (still cool to call you baby right? You didn't say otherwise so I just assume that you're alright with me shortening your long username babydave to just baby because of how long it takes to type it all out) you understood all that stuff up above, right?

I'm sure that you aren't avoiding replying to what I posted because I made a valid point and you have nothing to say to valid points.

I just want to make sure that you didn't have anything to add to what I posted above in reply to your post.

Hope you're having as much fun as we are here on the board. We like getting new members and really do encourage real discussion about just about anything.

babydave
05-06-2010, 02:09 PM
You are implying with this "if it does exist" statement that you think that it may not even be an actual law.

Copyright law exists. Specific interpretations of said law are always up for debate and subject to court rulings and set precedents.


You did this after several people pointed out that it's clearly against the law to download comics that you haven't paid for.

No, they stated "it's clearly against the law", but they pointed to nothing...no court cases or news items where someone went to jail for something relating to the downloading or displaying of comics online.


It's a bit funny that you implied that the law might not exist because clearly this thread wouldn't even exist if this guy's website had not been shut down and he had not been arrested for breaking the law that says you can't download things that aren't free unless you've paid for them.

I'm awaiting a court of law to tell me what the law says. It's a bit funny that you ignore the possibility that he might go free based on the interpretation of the law by a specific judge and jury. I hope he doesn't. But not for the same reasons as you.


What you did was side step the argument that it's clearly against the law by claiming ignorance of the law and therefore implying that if you didn't think it was against the law that you were going to go ahead and do what you wanted to do.

Steal comics online.

I didn't claim ignorance, and for the rest, you're just making assumptions.


So what I did was point out that in the United States it's a pretty well documented fact that ignorance of the law is not a valid defense of breaking the law.

Which kinda sucks because a lot of states have a lot of stupid laws that no one could be reasonably expected to learn.


Let me know if you need any further explanation on any of this. I tried to go slowly so you would understand. But I know how real discussion or ideas can be a little daunting or confusing to you.

I didn't need any explanation from you about anything, and I don't find anything presented in this thread confusing or daunting except maybe the inability of others to read words on a screen including the ones they put up themselves.

But... I love the smell of condescension in the morning (afternoon).

CS Ambrose
05-06-2010, 02:09 PM
Couple of questions for you. How old are you? Are you a student?

I am 28 and have read comics for 20 years. I'm not a student. I can't afford comics because not long after I got married I had health problems and was out of work. I had to take loans to pay off wedding debts and my economic situation has got steadily worse since then.

I can't afford comics or to save for comics because my wife is expecting our first child and we have very little money.

Please don't think that I'm whining I just want to be as clear as possible as to why I cannot afford comics.

babydave
05-06-2010, 02:13 PM
The books in a library are paid for in one way or another and provided for exactly that reason. This can be compared with free meals for poor people. They don't steal the food either.

Yeah, I know libraries buy the books. However, the books are checked out by many different people yet the library has only bought one book (for the sake of argument, let's ignore multiple copies and library locations), so these people still read the book for free or for a collective single purchase cost if you will. Using your analogy, it's as if all the poor people ate the same one meal over and over again after the person next to them was finished and the people providing the meal only paid for one instead of the hundreds that it would normally require.

Rod Nunley
05-06-2010, 02:15 PM
I am 28 and have read comics for 20 years. I'm not a student. I can't afford comics because not long after I got married I had health problems and was out of work. I had to take loans to pay off wedding debts and my economic situation has got steadily worse since then.

I can't afford comics or to save for comics because my wife is expecting our first child and we have very little money.

Please don't think that I'm whining I just want to be as clear as possible as to why I cannot afford comics.

Congrats on the baby man. That's awesome news.

As to getting your hands on comics. I'll keep you in mind. I review and talk about comics on my podcast and read a lot of single issues that I don't plan on keeping long term.

I can save them up and once I have a chunk of them put together I could probably send them your way. Maybe in the spirit of this thread we could donate a small amount of money to the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund instead of payment for any books I send to you.

Drop me a PM with your address and email and I'll keep your information for when I have some books saved up for a decent sized shipment.

Rod Nunley
05-06-2010, 02:18 PM
PS: It's clear to me that baby is just aching for a fight about something to keep him entertained and not really looking for any sort of discussion about comic theft.

So unless baby decides to go ahead and post his credit card number up here for us all (since it's not theft according to him) I'll just let this lie. I think the opposing team has more than made it's argument against stealing comics and anything else (or from about 30 posts back) is just banging ones head against a brick wall.

babydave
05-06-2010, 02:18 PM
I'd be interested to know if this guy thinks all he's doing is letting people read it off the shelf, but just extending that right to the online world.

Is that an unreasonable correlation?

Book stores make money off of people coming in, picking a book off the shelf and reading it while paying for the coffee or whatever that the store sells. Like ad revenue from website traffic? Mind you, I'm not using that as justification for my online comic book viewing site (there isn't one). I'm just curious about how you see it.

Taxman
05-06-2010, 02:18 PM
No, they stated "it's clearly against the law", but they pointed to nothing...no court cases or news items where someone went to jail for something relating to the downloading or displaying of comics online. It seems like you deliberately ignoring tons of precedent on these issues. A comic book is not a song. But when they are converted to digital files, I think that the courts are going to find that there is ultimately little to distinguish the two. The positions of those who claim that this activity is legal are wishful thinking, nothing more.

And yes, if you take something in this manner knowing it is the belief of the copyright holder that it is piracy, barring rulings to the contrary, you are a pirate.

Treacle
05-06-2010, 02:18 PM
I am 28 and have read comics for 20 years. I'm not a student. I can't afford comics because not long after I got married I had health problems and was out of work. I had to take loans to pay off wedding debts and my economic situation has got steadily worse since then.

I can't afford comics or to save for comics because my wife is expecting our first child and we have very little money.

Please don't think that I'm whining I just want to be as clear as possible as to why I cannot afford comics.

When I moved from Atlanta to Seattle, my discretionary income practically dried up. One of the "little luxuries" I had to get rid of was comics, and I frickin' love comics.

Part of being a grown-up is prioritizing your needs...nd going without if you can't afford things. Theft shouldn't be an option.

I don't want to come across like I'm browbeating you...but most of the folks here on the board aren't wealthy. And most of us don't steal comics. I just don't think that's an acceptable excuse.

I'm glad you're not going to get them illegally anymore though. :)

babydave
05-06-2010, 02:22 PM
:lol:


You're trying really hard to see how far you can push without getting banned.

Seriously, how? By replying to a mod? By disagreeing with a mod? I'm not being rude or mean or calling people names though I've been *nearly* labeled delusional and idiotic. I'm not "pushing" anyone, but I won't be pushed around either. If I'm not breaking rules somehow, please PM me with details. Thanks.

Raphael J
05-06-2010, 02:25 PM
Is that an unreasonable correlation?

Book stores make money off of people coming in, picking a book off the shelf and reading it while paying for the coffee or whatever that the store sells. Like ad revenue from website traffic? Mind you, I'm not using that as justification for my online comic book viewing site (there isn't one). I'm just curious about how you see it.

Yes, it is. I don't know how his website was set up, but if there was a single advertisement then he was commercially benefitting from the infringing action. If he was foolish enough to try to make a few bucks off the site, then I'd say he could potentially be in more trouble than if he had just posted it on its own. Also, there is an inherent difference between a storefront and a website like his. Like you said, there are other ways to generate revenue and, at the very least, an opportunity to engage the customer.

As for this...


No, they stated "it's clearly against the law", but they pointed to nothing...no court cases or news items where someone went to jail for something relating to the downloading or displaying of comics online.

I'm awaiting a court of law to tell me what the law says. It's a bit funny that you ignore the possibility that he might go free based on the interpretation of the law by a specific judge and jury. I hope he doesn't. But not for the same reasons as you.

To my knowledge, no one has gone to jail or been sued for posting or downloading comics. HOWEVER, all you have to do is look to the music and movie industries and see that many, many people have been sued for distributing or downloading copyrighted material. Why that hasn't been enforced on the comics front yet? Who knows, but they easily could and may yet.

But, the law is the law. The court interprets it, sure, but the line doesn't work the way you're describing it.

babydave
05-06-2010, 02:27 PM
If you're reading scanned comics on some website you've never heard of, isn't it reasonable to think that it's probably not authorized by the owner of that content?

I can't speak for everyone. The guy could've worked out a deal. I don't know. And I'm not just saying that. People have to start somewhere, and that was this guy's reasoning... then he used that to strong-arm creators and publishers to buy into what he was selling. Too bad for him it didn't work.

Speaking specifically, if that was my site and Colleen Doran emailed me and said her comics were on display for people to read on her website, I would have tried to work something out where clicking on her comics on my website would redirect people to her website where they could read the comics for free... in that instance, both parties benefit, right?

However, I would have never created that site in the first place, so it's all academic.

Treacle
05-06-2010, 02:28 PM
Is that an unreasonable correlation?

Book stores make money off of people coming in, picking a book off the shelf and reading it while paying for the coffee or whatever that the store sells. Like ad revenue from website traffic? Mind you, I'm not using that as justification for my online comic book viewing site (there isn't one). I'm just curious about how you see it.

A more appropriate analogy (if we're talking about making money off of illegal goods) is a website making ad revenue off copying and pasting content from other websites without permission, credit, or compensation. It would be like someone visiting my blog, copying and pasting a dozen articles onto their own blog, and then making money off the advertising.

Foolish Mortal
05-06-2010, 02:32 PM
Seriously, how? By replying to a mod? By disagreeing with a mod? I'm not being rude or mean or calling people names though I've been *nearly* labeled delusional and idiotic. I'm not "pushing" anyone, but I won't be pushed around either. If I'm not breaking rules somehow, please PM me with details. Thanks.

Downloading is great.

Your statement can be viewed as an endorsement for downloading which is against board rules.

babydave
05-06-2010, 02:33 PM
Drop me a PM with your address and email and I'll keep your information for when I have some books saved up for a decent sized shipment.

Everything else aside, that's a real nice thing to do. I was thinking about suggesting someone do that... like someone who gets comps and doesn't really read them and they just keep piling up, but I would've probably been called a socialist or something for wanting to redistribute the comics wealth.

(disclaimer: I am a socialist up to a point, so that label wouldn't have been completely untrue)

CS Ambrose
05-06-2010, 02:36 PM
When I moved from Atlanta to Seattle, my discretionary income practically dried up. One of the "little luxuries" I had to get rid of was comics, and I frickin' love comics.

Part of being a grown-up is prioritizing your needs...nd going without if you can't afford things. Theft shouldn't be an option.

I don't want to come across like I'm browbeating you...but most of the folks here on the board aren't wealthy. And most of us don't steal comics. I just don't think that's an acceptable excuse.

I'm glad you're not going to get them illegally anymore though. :)

I completely agree with you. Like you I prioritised my needs but I was selfish and believed that because my life went throgh a bad patch that I deserved to download comics. I was wrong.

Jonathan Callan
05-06-2010, 02:38 PM
When you consider that the best selling comics have print runs in the low hundred thousands, 1.6 million hits a day is a ridiculous number. What are the chances that even a small percentage of those people will go out start buying comics now that their source has dried up?

What are the chances they'll buy less now that they don't have the opportunity to find things they like or explore something new without the price tag?


Zero per cent. They'll find it somewhere else. This crowd will never, ever, translate to paying customers.

Really? What in the world would allow you to make a statement that bold?

If I read Casanova by torrent and it's my favorite thing in the world, why wouldn't I buy the trades?

bartleby
05-06-2010, 02:39 PM
If I read Casanova by torrent and it's my favorite thing in the world. Why wouldn't I buy the trades?

Something about a cow and milk.

Ryudo
05-06-2010, 02:40 PM
*bookmarking thread*

bartleby
05-06-2010, 02:42 PM
*bookmarking thread*

I'm meeting friends at dinner at 7:00. I get the feeling I'm going to miss something spectacular.

babydave
05-06-2010, 02:46 PM
Your statement can be viewed as an endorsement for downloading which is against board rules.

I'm gonna skip to the end for a second....

Dude, THANK YOU for that.

However: "Discussion of illegal activities such as software and music piracy and other intellectual property violations are not allowed. No warez, cracks, serials or illegally obtained copyrighted content! Links to content of a questionable nature (Including pornography), asking for, offering, or asking for help/helping to process such content in any way or form is not tolerated. This includes requesting links to such material (ie, "PM me, please!")."

The first sentence taken by itself would mean that this entire thread should not have been started. Yes, I know it's about a guy going to jail, but it's not unreasonable to expect that the reason behind him going to jail would be discussed. It doesn't say "endorsing downloading is not allowed" anywhere in this paragraph, but when the entire paragraph is taken as a whole that is practically what it's saying. I interpreted this to mean basically don't talk about your awesome downloads and tell people where to get them, and I haven't done that (because I don't have any, rodnunley). Again, thank you for actually pointing out what the "thin line" is.

I think discussing "piracy" as a topic is a good thing and should be allowed, and if I go by that first sentence alone, it apparently isn't.. and if I were to be banned for "discussing piracy", then everyone else that said word one about piracy should too.

I don't endorse piracy...but we're back to semantics now. I'm gonna go back and check the posts before this one, but I'm essentially done with this topic.

I appreciate the heads-up, Foolish Mortal. Thanks again.

CS Ambrose
05-06-2010, 02:50 PM
Congrats on the baby man. That's awesome news.

As to getting your hands on comics. I'll keep you in mind. I review and talk about comics on my podcast and read a lot of single issues that I don't plan on keeping long term.

I can save them up and once I have a chunk of them put together I could probably send them your way. Maybe in the spirit of this thread we could donate a small amount of money to the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund instead of payment for any books I send to you.

Drop me a PM with your address and email and I'll keep your information for when I have some books saved up for a decent sized shipment.

Time out from the debate for a minute guys and read the above. What a genuine good man. Guys like this are what make this fourm as enjoyable as it is.

babydave
05-06-2010, 02:55 PM
It seems like you deliberately ignoring tons of precedent on these issues.

I think "tons" is overstating it.

Like a lot of people, I go in thinking every new development of file transfer technology has found some loophole that has yet to be closed by the courts. I currently have no file transfer program installed on my computer. I had no idea a website would be so bold as to put comics up in plain view for everyone. Had I known, I probably would have gone there a few times under the assumption that it wasn't against the law or he would've been shut down already, and I don't think my decision to do so should be met with police action because simply viewing a website isn't "piracy".

This is an interesting topic to me, so pardon me for wanting to discuss it with people on the opposing side. Especially in light of a different reading of the board rules. Sorry.

THE_DAREDIVA
05-06-2010, 02:57 PM
Bendis just invited me here to debate piracy via Twitter....

So...

If I want to read, listen or watch something that I can't afford I go to the library. If they don't have it - I read, listen or watch something they do have.

There is much wisdom in your approach. What amazes me these days is how some people have no idea what the function of a library is. It's where you rent stuff for FREE! What a concept! Plus, it's legal!

babydave
05-06-2010, 03:00 PM
A more appropriate analogy (if we're talking about making money off of illegal goods) is a website making ad revenue off copying and pasting content from other websites without permission, credit, or compensation. It would be like someone visiting my blog, copying and pasting a dozen articles onto their own blog, and then making money off the advertising.

I was going to pursue this with further hypotheticals, but I'm not going to make this guy's argument for him. He clearly was out to make money for himself through questionable methods, and there's no defense for that.

Jonathan Callan
05-06-2010, 03:00 PM
Something about a cow and milk.

A huge portion of the trade industry as it stands is people buying collections of issues they already bought and read once.

People who pirate comics don't have book shelves?


Look, I understand the ire. I can't imagine the feeling to have someone steal your work. But are we really to argue there's NO potential good in a million readers exposed to the medium, in any form? Or even in the scanning and archiving of many uncollected older titles?

Quick scenario: say a fan owns a complete run of Preacher but it's in storage. By the views of many on this board, to download the scans would make him a thief. But the alternative would be to wait for Vertigo to come out with (potentially terrible) digital comics and then pay for content he already owns.

Right or wrong, there's no way you're can expect that fan to behave that way.

The way people view technology and ownership is changing. To the Hulu generation, it's not unreasonable to want to sample a thing before you buy it. Comics are going to have to do some thinking about the implications of a new generation of potential readers, rather than angrily labeling them thieves.

DrMachine
05-06-2010, 03:12 PM
This thread certainly got heated.

I find it interesting that so many people are concerned about their LCS in the event of widespread (legal) digital distribution. I'm not sure why people care so much.

Rod Nunley
05-06-2010, 03:14 PM
This thread certainly got heated.

I find it interesting that so many people are concerned about their LCS in the event of widespread (legal) digital distribution. I'm not sure why people care so much.

Because before the internet our LCS was what the Bendis Board is now. A place to meet comic fans and shoot the shit. We have an emotional and social attachment to our local comic stores.

babydave
05-06-2010, 03:15 PM
I find it interesting that so many people are concerned about their LCS in the event of widespread (legal) digital distribution. I'm not sure why people care so much.

It's one of the few types of business that is almost always locally owned and operated. It would be a shame to lose that. Corporations have everything else; don't let them get our comics!

That's just a guess. I have no facts to back that up.

Similar to what rodnunley said, they're what video stores used to be. Working at a good video store gave us Quentin Tarantino. Working at Heroes gave us Matt Fraction. People with a passion for something should be preserved because that's one thing corporations can never replicate.

Fake Pat
05-06-2010, 03:16 PM
Because before the internet our LCS was what the Bendis Board is now. A place to meet comic fans and shoot the shit. We have an emotional and social attachment to our local comic stores.

I'm sure that's a big part of it for a lot of people, but I don't think you even need to go that far.

Not liking the prospect of a whole bunch of people losing their businesses makes sense to me.

DrMachine
05-06-2010, 03:22 PM
I'm sure that's a big part of it for a lot of people, but I don't think you even need to go that far.

Not liking the prospect of a whole bunch of people losing their businesses makes sense to me.
I understand that aspect of it, just not the emotional connection that seems to exist for many. Now that I think about it, I wonder how many of these people grew up going to an LCS, I grew up in a remote part of the Tx desert so I did everything mail order.

Ray G.
05-06-2010, 04:16 PM
As for the rarity issue, with comics like Marvelman and the like.

Well, they are rare for a reason. Just because you'd like to read them doesn't entitle you to steal them, especially when you could pay a comic shop or eBay seller the money to own said comics.

There is a lot of "I wants" and "I'd like tos" at play here, but reality is reality and the law is the law.

I don't know. If the company is not making it available, at all, you're not taking anything out of their mouth. That one's a grey area, I'd say.

That's the only scenario I consider a gray area, however. Beyond that, downloading is a form of stealing, although maybe not as serious as literally filching it off the shelf, because it's not actively taking a copy that someone else could buy.