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View Full Version : [spoilers] You think they should bring back the No-Prize? Marvels Project/The Torch Spoilers...



The Zevad
04-02-2010, 06:39 PM
I like continuity. I like the sprawling histories all these characters share. But man it really ticks me off when the writers and editors don't do their job of research. Sure I believe in giving writers their freedom to go in whatever direction they want to go. And continuity be damn and all that. But fuck man if you are going to have two mini series dealing with the same characters being published at the same freaking time can there at least be CONSISTENCY?

I'll get to that in a bit.

Look even Stan fucked up. He called Bruce Banner in an issue of Fantastic Four BOB Banner. But hell that eventually got fixed when he revealed that Bruce's full name is Robert Bruce Banner. "You bled with Wallace. Now bleed with me!" Sorry wrong guy. But these little continuity flubs, these inconsistencies crawled up from time to time. So instead of dealing with the whining the fans (hell I've done this myself plenty of times with the whole Scarlet Witch/Avengers Disembled/House of M debacles) Stan challenged the fans to figure out why these events occurred and explain away the inconsistency using the comics themselves. Thus the NO-PRIZE was born.

Now the thing with inconsistency it can take you out of the story and confuse you. Right now there are two series that feature Thomas Raymond alias TORO. The Android Human Torch's sidekick. The Marvel's Project and The Torch. Great Nostalgia porn as some are apt to say. Here's the inconsistencies.
In the Torch we find out why Toro has the same exact powers as the android Human Torch. Toro is indeed a mutant.

But because both his parents worked with Prof Horton (the Torch's co-creater) they were exposed to his contribution to the Torch's creation: Horton Cells. Cells that can mimic everything human cells can do. But the Horton Cells are made of synthetic materials (i.e. plastics) So yes. Horton created the first human mode Cylon.

So in some way they passed the Horton Cells to Toro. They infected his mutant gene made it dormant and a blank slate. So when Toro met Jim Hammond/Torch at the circus Toro was working with. The Torch's powers activated Toro's mutant gene and it copied the Torch's abilities.
I liked it. But here's the thing.

Toro was already an orphan by the time he was working at the circus. His parents dead for a couple of months to a year. In the Torch mini Toro finds out his parents were being bank rolled by a Nazi to spy on Horton and steal his research and apparently the Nazi had Toro's parents killed.

But here's where the inconsistency crops up. In the Marvels' Project Jim Hammond meets both of Toro's parents. He comes looking for Toro's dad trying to find Prof Horton. Finds out that Toro's Mom is really sick (probably the Horton Cells in her system fucking her up) Now thankfully Toro's powers still manifest themselves in the presence of Jim.

Toro's hands flame up and he's like "What the heck is going on here?" Jim flies off. And eventually in the following issue we find out that Toro and his family get on a train and there's a massive train wreck. Everyone dies except for Toro because he flamed on.
So the circus act angle is cut out. So what's the explanation?

Here's my try for the no-prize. Looking at the pages of the Marvels' Project. Toro is pretty fucking traumatized after that train wreck. The Human torch is like a kid. A year if not less when he met Toro. What if the whole circus act was a complete fabrication. Toro was in a sensitive state so the Torch thinking he was doing the kid a kindness helped create a false memory. Perhaps because Jim is made up of Horton Cells and Toro has them in his system perhaps there's a mental connection as well and that's how the false memory was planted. And this could still line up with the Torch mini as we find out Nora Raymond (Toro's mother) was killed by the Nazi's who hired her. So it's possible they sabotaged the train killing his parents.

There we go. No big deal. But seriously stuff like this wouldn't happen if the editors were on top of things. So do inconsistencies bug you just tad bit? And should they just let the fans come up with the fix and reward them a No-Prize? Eh? Opinions?

Fake Pat
04-02-2010, 06:51 PM
But fuck it.

Agreed.

Ryan F
04-02-2010, 06:58 PM
I love the no-prize idea.

If you care about continuity (and I can see why you would, but also why you wouldn't), it does seem like it makes a lot more sense to say "hey, let me imagine how I can make this fit," than to say "ah, the stories contradict, these writers are terrible! waaaah!" (and you see a lot of the latter from comic book reviewers).

The Zevad
04-02-2010, 07:06 PM
Agreed.

To disagee? Yeah.

cmoney
04-02-2010, 07:09 PM
I'm still kind of wondering if the conflicts between Marvel Zombies 4 and Punisher re: Morbius and Werewolf By Night will ever be addressed. How did Morbius go from working for ARMOR (and apparently he still will be when MZ5 starts?) to living underground with the monsters in Punisher? How is the Werewolf living there too if MZ5 is about Morbius trying to find a cure for him after he was infected? Maybe all this stuff happens before Punisher, but Morbius also just had an appearance in Amazing that leads into MZ5, so ... just confused. Not angry, since I realize most people don't like these characters as much as I do, just kind of silently hoping it gets addressed.

More on topic ... um, I'll work on earning a No-Prize on this once I have some Frankencastle trades in hand to dig into. :)

The Zevad
04-02-2010, 07:11 PM
I love the no-prize idea.

If you care about continuity (and I can see why you would, but also why you wouldn't), it does seem like it makes a lot more sense to say "hey, let me imagine how I can make this fit," than to say "ah, the stories contradict, these writers are terrible! waaaah!" (and you see a lot of the latter from comic book reviewers).


It's not bad writing. Just bad research. But among my many pet pieves don't you like it when a writer can't follow his own continuity? I mean DUDE you wrote it! You made it up! How can you contradict yourself? BENDIS has done this. The Adult FF showed up first in the Ultimate Spider-Man Super Special. They were mentioned before around for years in The Ultimates 1 Series. Before Black Widow joined the Ultimates she showed up in Ultimate Marvel Team Up and beat up Spidey. Stole his web shooters. And this was all taking place in a Latverian Consulate with a nice large painted portrait of Dr. Doom in the back ground. Then when they get a series of their own all of sudden they are teenagers who no one ever heard of?

The thing that makes my brain go "WHHHHHAT?!" Is that BENDIS wrote the Ultimate Spidey Special. He wrote that issue of Ultimate MTUP. Ugh. And BENDIS said he would explain this. He never did. Dude seriously if you don't want to come up with an explanation tons of us fans can. There's a damn couple of ways you can explain why the Adult FF was forgotten and replaced by their Teenage Counterparts without having to tread the Teen Tony ground.

Damn those were scary days. Teen Tony. Yikes!

The Zevad
04-02-2010, 07:22 PM
I'm still kind of wondering if the conflicts between Marvel Zombies 4 and Punisher re: Morbius and Werewolf By Night will ever be addressed. How did Morbius go from working for ARMOR (and apparently he still will be when MZ5 starts?) to living underground with the monsters in Punisher? How is the Werewolf living there too if MZ5 is about Morbius trying to find a cure for him after he was infected? Maybe all this stuff happens before Punisher, but Morbius also just had an appearance in Amazing that leads into MZ5, so ... just confused. Not angry, since I realize most people don't like these characters as much as I do, just kind of silently hoping it gets addressed.

More on topic ... um, I'll work on earning a No-Prize on this once I have some Frankencastle trades in hand to dig into. :)

HMM Having not read Frankencastle it's quite possible that the events of Frankencastle could take place AFTER MZ5. I mean Frank's body parts could have been kept on ice for months before he was put back together right? Maybe Morbius figured things out and cured Jack Russle. Or it could be Morbius and Werewolf by Night clones. All clones.

Maybe that's how they'll make Frank normal again. Put him in a younger clone body ala Professor X and Red Skull. I'm trade waiting on Frankencastle. But him being on ice for a couple of months before he was put back together and setting it after MZ5 could explain it.

Seriously the editors should be on top of this shit. They need a continuity/consistency editer. Peter Sanderson used to hold a similar job. He'd make sure character apperances lined up with each other. They need someone like that again. Probably a team of them. :lol:

Andrew
04-02-2010, 07:25 PM
I'm still kind of wondering if the conflicts between Marvel Zombies 4 and Punisher re: Morbius and Werewolf By Night will ever be addressed. How did Morbius go from working for ARMOR (and apparently he still will be when MZ5 starts?) to living underground with the monsters in Punisher? How is the Werewolf living there too if MZ5 is about Morbius trying to find a cure for him after he was infected? Maybe all this stuff happens before Punisher, but Morbius also just had an appearance in Amazing that leads into MZ5, so ... just confused. Not angry, since I realize most people don't like these characters as much as I do, just kind of silently hoping it gets addressed.

The Marvel Zombies universe has some more glaring continuity errors like the fact that the Kingpin was shown being killed like 3 different times (once as a human, without having been infected by another zombie, and the other times as a zombie).

But whatever.

The Zevad
04-02-2010, 07:37 PM
The Marvel Zombies universe has some more glaring continuity errors like the fact that the Kingpin was shown being killed like 3 different times (once as a human, without having been infected by another zombie, and the other times as a zombie).

But whatever.


Whose to say we deal with the same Zombieverse each time? If you look at the original Marvel Zombies we saw in Ultimate FF they looked more like they were victims of a similar virus like Rage (28 Days Later) They still had lips and such. Though in their later apperance they appeared a bit more rotted to line up with the Marvel Zombies mini. The only logical explanation is that we have been dealing with multiple Zombieverses. Crisis on Infinite Marvel Zombie Earths if you will.

The mini itself had different looking Zombies from the Ultimate FF. They had no lips. You could see more rotted skin and and their gums. Also Iron Man had diffrent armor. Continuity was all over the place with that. Also there was no indication that Spider-Man had organic webshooters. He was totally using mechanical ones. But in the Marvel Zombies Return one shots he acts like he has them when he should know better. I just did not get the feeling these zombies were the same that Robert Kirkman had written. So hell if Kirkman ever feels like writing his sequel it could still be done.

MZ3 with Aaron going into A Zombieverse makes more sense. Hell aren't they dealing with multiple Zombie universes in MZ5? Hell it never made any freaking sense that the zombie virus ran rampant like it did. I always felt that these dimensions must have been the back water/Delivernce sections of the Marvel Multiverse. I mean a flesh and blood Galactus? When he's no such thing? Reed Richards who goes nuts and lets himself get turned? Why not invent a nanite virus that eats necrotic tissue? Or use the Phalanx/Technarchy virus and modify it to destroy the zombies? Why did no one destroy the head of the zombies? Seriously?

The Zombieverses are obvious results of two timelines having inbred sex and giving birth to these down syndrome universes.

Seriously.

:lol:

Jef UK
04-02-2010, 07:49 PM
AMS gives digital no-prizes.

Jef UK
04-02-2010, 07:51 PM
How can you contradict yourself? !

Because better writing is better than better continuity and better continuity can get in the way of better writing.

The Zevad
04-02-2010, 07:53 PM
AMS gives digital no-prizes.



Hmmmm. Maybe I should send them my theory on how Mephisto could NOT have been the guy who Peter and Mary Jane dealt with in One More Day. I think it was some other entity. Probably Immortus. He'd be able to do surgery to the timeline that was necessary for the new continuity. With the Forever Crystal of course.

The Zevad
04-02-2010, 07:56 PM
Because better writing is better than better continuity and better continuity can get in the way of better writing.

Teenage FF is better writing? Really? :mistrust:

:scared:

But seriously. Continuity is not this big fucking determent these new wave writers think it is. One it helps keep consitency. Two it lets you see where previous writers fucked up. Their missed opportunities. Three if you have a similar idea and realize it's been done before looking at the original can help you come at it from a different angle and justify doing a story that's been done before.

Andrew
04-02-2010, 07:56 PM
Because better writing is better than better continuity and better continuity can get in the way of better writing.

Not necessarily. I'd argue that it takes even more skill as a writer to be able to come up with an amazing story that can still fit within the parameters set by a particular continuity.

Complaining about continuity being "too limiting" oftentimes reads more as an excuse for wanting to be lazy.

The Zevad
04-02-2010, 08:03 PM
Not necessarily. I'd argue that it takes even more skill as a writer to be able to come up with an amazing story that can still fit within the parameters set by a particular continuity.

Complaining about continuity being "too limiting" oftentimes reads more as an excuse for wanting to be lazy.


:Ponder:

FUCK YEAH!

:rock::rock::rock:

Brother Power the Gong
04-02-2010, 08:22 PM
Marvel Zombies isn't 616, and The Torch <<<<< Marvels Project to the point where Human Torch can come back and that story can be retconned to fit MP.

cmoney
04-02-2010, 08:23 PM
Continuity is definitely a part of what I like about comics. I'm not going to hate an otherwise good story for slipping in regards to it, but there is a different kind of pleasure to be taken from a good story that also works well within established continuity. I don't just read Spider-Man because I like the current issue, I also read it because of all the issues that came before it.

Oh, and Zevad: I'm with you, the Ultimate FF thing still bugs me a bit.

cmoney
04-02-2010, 08:24 PM
Marvel Zombies isn't 616, and The Torch <<<<< Marvels Project to the point where Human Torch can come back and that story can be retconned to fit MP.

Marvel Zombies has been 616 since the third mini.

Brother Power the Gong
04-02-2010, 08:29 PM
Marvel Zombies has been 616 since the third mini.

They said so at one point, but I'm not buying it. I think the announcement that (the very well-done) 3 and 4 minis were in the 616 was an error they've haven't corrected yet.

cmoney
04-02-2010, 08:33 PM
They said so at one point, but I'm not buying it. I think the announcement that (the very well-done) 3 and 4 minis were in the 616 was an error they've haven't corrected yet.

And here's where I say something weird that I'm probably going to get yelled at for saying: I kind of don't love MZ3 and 4 as much if that turns out to be true...

Brother Power the Gong
04-02-2010, 08:34 PM
And here's where I say something weird that I'm probably going to get yelled at for saying: I kind of don't love MZ3 and 4 as much if that turns out to be true...

Fair enough: And all the more reason to believe they are not 616. Wait for it; someone at Marvel will come out and say they are not 616.

Andrew
04-02-2010, 08:36 PM
And here's where I say something weird that I'm probably going to get yelled at for saying: I kind of don't love MZ3 and 4 as much if that turns out to be true...

MZ3 was great, but MZ4 was fucking boring. The magic stuff is where I lost interest completely.

Marvel Zombies Return was a nice return to form, or at least the first issue was.

cmoney
04-02-2010, 08:38 PM
MZ3 was great, but MZ4 was fucking boring. The magic stuff is where I lost interest completely.

Marvel Zombies Return was a nice return to form, or at least the first issue was.

The Midnight Sons and Night Shift. It's like 4 was written for me specially. :)

The Zevad
04-05-2010, 03:43 PM
They said so at one point, but I'm not buying it. I think the announcement that (the very well-done) 3 and 4 minis were in the 616 was an error they've haven't corrected yet.

Morbius guest starred in a recent issue of Amazing Spider-Man and made reference to the Marvel Zombie minis. So yeah 3 and 4 ARE in the 616.

Jef UK
04-05-2010, 03:54 PM
Teenage FF is better writing? Really? :mistrust:

:scared:

But seriously. Continuity is not this big fucking determent these new wave writers think it is. One it helps keep consitency. Two it lets you see where previous writers fucked up. Their missed opportunities. Three if you have a similar idea and realize it's been done before looking at the original can help you come at it from a different angle and justify doing a story that's been done before.

Says you.

The Zevad
04-05-2010, 04:00 PM
Says you.

Zevad while chaneling Desmond David Hume:

Yeah, says me brother!

Supreme Convoy
04-05-2010, 04:46 PM
Forget Marvels Project and The Torch. When are we going to learn if Lockjaw & The Pet Avengers are in continuity or not?

The Zevad
04-05-2010, 05:03 PM
Forget Marvels Project and The Torch. When are we going to learn if Lockjaw & The Pet Avengers are in continuity or not?


NOt so much no.