LOST Season 6 Episode 9 - Discussion Thread (3/23/10 spoilers ONLY!)

[Adrian B AWESOME]

6x09 "Ab Aeterno"

No cast lists or any of that stuff. Only this: The Richard Alpert episode.

[TIP]

Batmanuel is dreamy.

[Adrian B AWESOME]

Will Hot Bizarro Liz Lemon show up again? Will eggs continue to quick fast than 45 minutes in the sideways universe? Will the worst cliffhanger of the season (and in this poster's opinion one of the worst of the show) but diluted by an amazing episode? Stay tuned!

[JackBauer]

What is the worst cliffhanger you're talking about?
Whatever, can't wait! :)

[Adrian B AWESOME]

Will Sawyer watch more Little House on the Prarie? Will it be the one where Mr. Edwards is attacked by a bear that's, secretly, Pa Ingalls? Stay tuned!

[Adrian B AWESOME]

What is the worst cliffhanger you're talking about?
Whatever, can't wait! :)

They're going to take the sub, not the plane. Duh. We all knew this, or could at least have an educated assumption. At no point did I ever assume they were going to fly Anjira 316 off the island, and to even act like it was an option is just stupid.

[JackBauer]

Pretty clever. I didn't think about the sub until Sawyer brought it up. But that's because I'm so captivated when I watch the show. ;)

[Foolish Mortal]

One minute!

[Adrian B AWESOME]

Richard's handsome secrets...revealed!

[Adrian B AWESOME]

Haha...Richard's gone crazy.

[UltimateFactor]

I hope he's just nuts. Sounds like the plot to that stupid Scifi movie where the three people where in hell on a ship lol.

[Adrian B AWESOME]

I hope he's just nuts. Sounds like the plot to that stupid Scifi movie where the three people where in hell on a ship lol.

Eh, the producers said long ago the island isn't the afterlife.

[Nick Spencer]

Eh, the producers said long ago the island isn't the afterlife.

And Richard just said this isn't an island.

[Foolish Mortal]

Welp! You can all turn off your TVs now. Richard answered all your questions! :lol:

[Adrian B AWESOME]

And Richard just said this isn't an island.

In truth, it's a peninsula!

[Steve Marshall]

Missed the first couple of minutes (up to the commercial break). Can anybody give me a quick recap?

[Adrian B AWESOME]

Oh wow, didn't think we'd hear the flashback noise...

And Richard's, what? Some sort of medicines man?

[UltimateFactor]

Huh, was this chick who Hugo was speaking to?

[LordKinbote]

Tenerife...the site of the biggest plane crash of all time.

Coincidence?

[Adrian B AWESOME]

Huh, was this chick who Hugo was speaking to?

Didn't even cross my mind. Nice.

[UltimateFactor]

I think richard came in on that ship we saw when Jacob and Smoke Monster were on the Beach.

[Adrian B AWESOME]

Tenerife...the site of the biggest plane crash of all time.

Coincidence?

Probably, but still fun.

Ahhhhh...Richard was a murderer.

[Boris the Blade]

Tenerife just got a big shout out in Breaking Bad two days ago.

[UltimateFactor]

Hey! The priest stole his Bible! Thou shalt not steal!

[Adrian B AWESOME]

Tenerife just got a big shout out in Breaking Bad two days ago.

It's Tenerife week on TV where they somehow work it into the plot of every show possible.

[Adrian B AWESOME]

George Takei is my hero.

[Dreaded Anomaly]

Magnus Hanso!

[UltimateFactor]

Knew it!

[Adrian B AWESOME]

Man, that boat CGI was terrible.

[Dark Sasha]

Who wrote this?

[Dreaded Anomaly]

So the Black Rock took out the statue. Interesting.

[UltimateFactor]

Nevermind. Wrong ship.

[Dreaded Anomaly]

Who wrote this?

Melinda Hsu Taylor & Greggory Nations. http://www.abcmedianet.com/assets/pr/html/031710_07.html

[Adrian B AWESOME]

Here comes Smokey...(I think)

[Dark Sasha]

LOOK! The origin of his "Why are you doing this" face!

[Adrian B AWESOME]

Yep.

[UltimateFactor]

Ahhh, Smokey DID say when he first met Richard he was in chains didn't he.

[Adrian B AWESOME]

Frontier-era nanomachines.

[silverboy]

Some good CG effect on Lost. I never thought I'd see the day.

And Nestor's really kicking ass this episode. Wish there was a little back-and-forth with the present, though.

[Dreaded Anomaly]

Frontier-era nanomachines.

Well, since the Island is Atlantis, their advanced civilization could have easily developed nanobots. ;)

[Dark Sasha]

Well, since the Island is Atlantis, their advanced civilization could have easily developed nanobots. ;)

But since it's hell, that means that all the scientists died and went there so they made nanobots!

[LordKinbote]

Wow, Lost sure is answering a lot of questions...that we had already correctly assumed the answers to. :)

[Dreaded Anomaly]

Hah, the recap girl!

[Adrian B AWESOME]

Wow, Lost sure is answering a lot of questions...that we had already correctly assumed the answers to. :)

Don't care, this is a great episode.

[Dark Sasha]

Filler!

[J Money]

Here comes Smokey...(I think)

Just in time to kill whitey!

[LordKinbote]

This part of the episode is like a gender-switched version of "Gerald's Game".

[Adrian B AWESOME]

Smokey can kill hallucinations!

[Kirblar]

Smokey can kill hallucinations!
I think he created that one.

[Dark Sasha]

Nightman is going to rape richard!

[UltimateFactor]

Richard's Inferno. :lol:

[Adrian B AWESOME]

Nightman is going to rape richard!

Nooooo! Dayman, where are you?!

[Kirblar]

Smokey was a manipulative SOB even back then! :lol:

[Dreaded Anomaly]

"It's good to see you out of those chains." There's that line...

[Dark Sasha]

"ohhh it's good to see you out of those chains :heybaby:."

[Kirblar]

Richard was the first "Ben" attempt!

[Adrian B AWESOME]

Nightman's tried to kill Dayman before, eh? With the loophole. I just hope he paid the Troll toll.

[Adrian B AWESOME]

Smokey may be made out of Sharp's Quattron technology.

[Boris the Blade]

Nightman's tried to kill Dayman before, eh? With the loophole. I just hope he paid the Troll toll.
Please tell me he wasn't trying to get into Walt's soul.

[LeggoMyEggolas]

smokey may be made out of sharp's quattron technology.

oh my!

[Adrian B AWESOME]

Please tell me he wasn't trying to get into Walt's soul.

:lol:

[UltimateFactor]

Now I want a Richard Skin for my Dante's Inferno Game.

[Dreaded Anomaly]

Isn't that "you only have one chance" speech what Dogen said to Sayid?

[Dark Sasha]

Master of karate!

[Adrian B AWESOME]

Richard's channeling Homeless Dad (he just wants his wife back)

[UltimateFactor]

Isn't that "you only have one chance" speech what Dogen said to Sayid?

Yup

[LordKinbote]

Richard's channeling Homeless Dad (he just wants his wife back)

Heh.

So did Jacob make Ricardo anglicize his name? What a racist.

[silverboy]

This episode's just making me more confused!

[Raphael J]

I know you guys joke, but now I can't not see Dayman and Nightman. Master of friendship through Karate for everyone.

[Jonny Z]

"WHERE'S THE MONEY, RICHARD? WHERE'S THE MONEY??!? ISABELLA SAYS YOU'RE GOOD FOR IT!!!"

:lol:

[Adrian B AWESOME]

Master of karate!

I know! I cracked up!

[Adrian B AWESOME]

So, essentially, Jacob really was the great white hope.

[Dark Sasha]

I think Desmond is gonna be the new Richard.

[LordKinbote]

This episode's just making me more confused!

That's the early onset Alzheimer's.

[Adrian B AWESOME]

I think Desmond is gonna be the new Richard.

I think Jack's the new Charlie. (He fought the Nightman and I really think he'll live as Dayman, so he's here to ask for your hand!)

[Boris the Blade]

I think Desmond is gonna be the new Richard.
He's not even a candidate!

[UltimateFactor]

I was hoping they were a cursed Cain and Abel.

[Adrian B AWESOME]

Dayman's getting him drunk....hmmm...do you think that means Dayman secretly shares Nightman's agenda (FOR RAPE)?

[Dreaded Anomaly]

This whole "the wine is the darkness, the island is the cork" thing sounds like a Pandora's Box allegory.

[Dark Sasha]

So he's his butler.

[Dreaded Anomaly]

Richard's living forever to avoid going to hell. Interesting.

[Adrian B AWESOME]

Interesting...Jacob's very different here than he is when Ben kills him.

I do like that, basically, the plane crash was another iteration of the cycle, but finally, because Jacob's dead, the cycle will be broken. Always a good time.

[Adrian B AWESOME]

So he's his butler.

Richard's the Troll.

[Adrian B AWESOME]

Here we go. Yay Hurley!

[Dark Sasha]

and Hurley knows Spanish!

[Adrian B AWESOME]

Awwww...first Ben, now Richard...

[Adrian B AWESOME]

Eat that, DVRs.

[Adrian B AWESOME]

Oh yeah! Extra-long episode!

[Dark Sasha]

Jesus juice!

[Adrian B AWESOME]

So Smokey's an alcoholic?

[Raphael J]

Richard Alpert is a hell of a character. And I can't be the only one who really loves teh dynamic between the actors who play Jacob and the Man in Black.

What a great, great episode.

[Adrian B AWESOME]

What a spectacular episode.

[MagicGamer]

and Hurley knows Spanish!

As opposed to season 1 where he was reading a Spanish comic book?

[MabusRex]

Eat that, DVRs.

LOL! I was just saying to myself that ran a bit long.

[silverboy]

I was ready to bitch about this episode...but the last ten minutes were pretty good.

[Foolish Mortal]

Man, Richard really did endure a lot of pain and suffering. It's easy to see why he thought he was in hell.

[LordKinbote]

Eat that, DVRs.

Yeah, I missed the ending due to Parenthood and Justified both taping. Damn you ABC.

[Dark Sasha]

As opposed to season 1 where he was reading a Spanish comic book?

and that's why the scene works!

[James Patrick]

filler

[Adrian B AWESOME]

I was ready to bitch about this episode...but the last ten minutes were pretty good.

:roll:

[Adrian B AWESOME]

filler

I know, right? It's like "Who cares about this dude's wife?"

[Foolish Mortal]

So the island is some sort of stopguard that prevents some kind of destructive force from getting out.

[Thudpucker]

Filler.

[Kirblar]

This episode really, really dragged.

[Foolish Mortal]

This episode really, really dragged.

Didn't drag for me at all. In fact I was surprised that it went over a couple of minutes.

[silverboy]

:roll:

Don't give me that. The Richard backstory was alright...but the execution was pretty long winded. Not as much of a revelatory episode as we expected.

[Strikeout]

So, does the smashing of the bottle signify the combination of parallel time lines?

[James Patrick]

Don't give me that. The Richard backstory was alright...but the execution was pretty long winded. Not as much of a revelatory episode as we expected.

except, you know, they reveal pretty much everything with a bottle of wine :)

[SeanC]

So, does the smashing of the bottle signify the combination of parallel time lines?

It signals ants are going to be around soon slurpin' up all that wine. Smokey just ruined a fine picnic.

[James Patrick]

So, does the smashing of the bottle signify the combination of parallel time lines?

no. it signifies evil getting out

[Adrian B AWESOME]

Don't give me that. The Richard backstory was alright...but the execution was pretty long winded. Not as much of a revelatory episode as we expected.

Revelatory? Who cares. It was a good story, told well, and honestly, they couldn't do it any other way. We had to see Richard's anguish and personal penance to understand why he is where he is. Otherwise, who cares that his ghost wife is there? There's zero emotional attachment.

People who keep expecting answers can just stop watching and wait for the finale because you're not getting any until then really. Until then, enjoy the ride and stop complaining when the television we do get is really fantastic.

[Ben]

That was an amazing episode. Absolutely perfect. If you thought it was boring or long winded or filler, I don't want to know you.

[Strikeout]

no. it signifies evil getting out

I get that, but somehow the 2 timelines are supposed to merge, and I think that somehow this is connected to the manipulation of events in time.

[Foolish Mortal]

That was an amazing episode. Absolutely perfect. If you thought it was boring or long winded or filler, I don't want to know you.
Agreed. That was a great episode of a great television series.

[Adrian B AWESOME]

That was an amazing episode. Absolutely perfect. If you thought it was boring or long winded or filler, I don't want to know you.

Exactly. If you thought that was boring, you shouldn't be watching TV, reading books, seeing movies...basically, you shouldn't be doing anything in the realm of entertainment.

[Ben]

Revelatory? Who cares. It was a good story, told well, and honestly, they couldn't do it any other way. We had to see Richard's anguish and personal penance to understand why he is where he is. Otherwise, who cares that his ghost wife is there? There's zero emotional attachment.

People who keep expecting answers can just stop watching and wait for the finale because you're not getting any until then really. Until then, enjoy the ride and stop complaining when the television we do get is really fantastic.It's really weird to me that people seem to care more about plot answers than characters. Like, the answers are just going to be a bunch of stuff some writers made up to make the puzzle pieces fit together. That's all nice and everything, but it won't really move you. The character moments evoke emotion, resulting in a much more satisfying experience.

Also, this show has never been about answers. The whole island mystery has just been an excuse to throw these characters together and have them interact. Kind of like Twin Peaks -- if you're watching to find out who killed Laura Palmer, you're missing the point and will not enjoy yourself. I went into Lost with a Twin Peaks mindset. The first season set this up pretty well, as 99% of what happened were character developments. Most of the twists and surprises were character surprises, not surprises about the island.

It's like they're watching this show pretending it's something it's not and then they get upset when it doesn't live up to their fantasy!

[James Patrick]

I get that, but somehow the 2 timelines are supposed to merge, and I think that somehow this is connected to the manipulation of events in time.


why do the two timelines have to merge? or are you saying that as something you read? the other timeline may now simply be an example of what happens IF evil gets out, or more complicated. All i'm saying is that the scene with the wine is simply what i said it is -- not that what you're saying isn't true.

[andrew french]

oh my god, oh my god..!

so perfect; my girlfriend and I were swooning throughout

[Adrian B AWESOME]

It's really weird to me that people seem to care more about plot answers than characters. Like, the answers are just going to be a bunch of stuff some writers made up to make the puzzle pieces fit together. That's all nice and everything, but it won't really move you. The character moments evoke emotion, resulting in a much more satisfying experience.

Also, this show has never been about answers. The whole island mystery has just been an excuse to throw these characters together and have them interact. Kind of like Twin Peaks -- if you're watching to find out who killed Laura Palmer, you're missing the point and will not enjoy yourself. I went into Lost with a Twin Peaks mindset. The first season set this up pretty well, as 99% of what happened were character developments. Most of the twists and surprises were character surprises, not surprises about the island.

It's like they're watching this show pretending it's something it's not and then they get upset when it doesn't live up to their fantasy!

Exactly. Watch that first season, and while there's absolutely some mysteries, it's all about who these people are. It's almost an entire season of setup.

[LordKinbote]

Some of you may laugh, but my only complaint is actually the OPPOSITE complaint that you usually hear about Lost: I wish they hadn't hinted so much at Richard's past in *previous* episodes. It would have made this episode seem more, I don't know, revelatory.

This episode was darn good. But I was always taught the golden rule of storytelling was "show, don't tell" and the last handful of episodes have turned this episode into "tell, but then show also."

[andrew french]

That was an amazing episode. Absolutely perfect. If you thought it was boring or long winded or filler, I don't want to know you.

agreed!

[Adrian B AWESOME]

If anything else, the fact that this episode proved that Jacob was a master of karate and friendship made it absolutely amazing.

[The Human Target]

A) The Dayman/Nightman jokes are getting stale. EVen though Jacob is a black belt at karate.

B) Good episode, but a very jarring change of pace. I could have used some of the "Richard sits around chained up or sad" moments cut for sure.

[Jew Mafia]

Did anyone else laugh at how casually Jacob said everyone before had died? It was almost flippant.

[The Zevad]

and Hurley knows Spanish!


Umm why wouldn't he? His name is Hugo Reyes. His father is freaking Cheach Marin (well charater wise) his mom is the typical spanish mother.

My Gods Man!

[LeggoMyEggolas]

It's really weird to me that people seem to care more about plot answers than characters. Like, the answers are just going to be a bunch of stuff some writers made up to make the puzzle pieces fit together. That's all nice and everything, but it won't really move you. The character moments evoke emotion, resulting in a much more satisfying experience.

Also, this show has never been about answers. The whole island mystery has just been an excuse to throw these characters together and have them interact. Kind of like Twin Peaks -- if you're watching to find out who killed Laura Palmer, you're missing the point and will not enjoy yourself. I went into Lost with a Twin Peaks mindset. The first season set this up pretty well, as 99% of what happened were character developments. Most of the twists and surprises were character surprises, not surprises about the island.

It's like they're watching this show pretending it's something it's not and then they get upset when it doesn't live up to their fantasy!
Exactly.
If anything, the pieces of the puzzle have been mostly put out there for us to put together. And I wouldn't want some "grand" answer spelled out for me anyway, I just want to enjoy the ride and it's been one helluva ride.

[Dark Sasha]

Umm why wouldn't he? His name is Hugo Reyes. His father is freaking Cheach Marin (well charater wise) his mom is the typical spanish mother.

My Gods Man!

But it supports the scene so well!

[Ben]

Some of you may laugh, but my only complaint is actually the OPPOSITE complaint that you usually hear about Lost: I wish they hadn't hinted so much at Richard's past in *previous* episodes. It would have made this episode seem more, I don't know, revelatory.

This episode was darn good. But I was always taught the golden rule of storytelling was "show, don't tell" and the last handful of episodes have turned this episode into "tell, but then show also."I kind of see what you mean. I guess it would've been cool if they hadn't hinted at the Black Rock connection. That would've been a real "oh cool!" moment.

[Dreaded Anomaly]

It's really weird to me that people seem to care more about plot answers than characters. Like, the answers are just going to be a bunch of stuff some writers made up to make the puzzle pieces fit together. That's all nice and everything, but it won't really move you. The character moments evoke emotion, resulting in a much more satisfying experience.

Also, this show has never been about answers. The whole island mystery has just been an excuse to throw these characters together and have them interact. Kind of like Twin Peaks -- if you're watching to find out who killed Laura Palmer, you're missing the point and will not enjoy yourself. I went into Lost with a Twin Peaks mindset. The first season set this up pretty well, as 99% of what happened were character developments. Most of the twists and surprises were character surprises, not surprises about the island.

It's like they're watching this show pretending it's something it's not and then they get upset when it doesn't live up to their fantasy!

QFT. Lost has always been a show about the characters. That's what makes it so good.

[Dreaded Anomaly]

I kind of see what you mean. I guess it would've been cool if they hadn't hinted at the Black Rock connection. That would've been a real "oh cool!" moment.

It would have been, but we still found out how the statue got destroyed, which (as far as I remember) had not been hinted before.

[Adrian B AWESOME]

A) The Dayman/Nightman jokes are getting stale. EVen though Jacob is a black belt at karate.

B) Good episode, but a very jarring change of pace. I could have used some of the "Richard sits around chained up or sad" moments cut for sure.

And friendship. And these are hardly jokes. They are proof of facts.

[Ben]

Umm why wouldn't he? His name is Hugo Reyes. His father is freaking Cheach Marin (well charater wise) his mom is the typical spanish mother.

My Gods Man!But Richard speaks REAL Spanish. How would Hurley recognize all those vosotros conjugations?

[Jew Mafia]

A) The Dayman/Nightman jokes are getting stale. EVen though Jacob is a black belt at karate.

B) Good episode, but a very jarring change of pace. I could have used some of the "Richard sits around chained up or sad" moments cut for sure.

It all worked pretty well for me. I liked that they didnt even really indicate how long he was chained down there. This episode hit all the right emotional buttons, almost as good as Des/Penny reunion.

[Dreaded Anomaly]

I have a feeling that what Jacob said, "When you come here, your past doesn't matter," is going to be important in the end. Not sure how, though.

[Ben]

It would have been, but we still found out how the statue got destroyed, which (as far as I remember) had not been hinted before.That's true.

But we still don't know who built the statue!!! Maybe they'll do a whole episode about the guy who carved it and how he stubbed his toe once and cried about it for 45 minutes! And then we won't get any answers that whole episode!!!

[Maestro]

this episode continues off the the opening scene of last season's finale:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTF2Vd--yIw

[modungo]

If anything else, the fact that this episode proved that Jacob was a master of karate and friendship made it absolutely amazing.
ha!

[Ben]

What do you guys think about the "He [Jacob] stole my body" line from the black smoke monster guy?

[Adrian B AWESOME]

What do you guys think about the "He [Jacob] stole my body" line from the black smoke monster guy?

Rape?

[Gregory]

I have a feeling that what Jacob said, "When you come here, your past doesn't matter," is going to be important in the end. Not sure how, though.

That's one of the running themes of the show. It's what Locke tapped into: He could and did remake himself. The flashbacks allowed us to see how a character got to the island and whether he would continue to be the same person.

[Dreaded Anomaly]

That's true.

But we still don't know who built the statue!!! Maybe they'll do a whole episode about the guy who carved it and how he stubbed his toe once and cried about it for 45 minutes! And then we won't get any answers that whole episode!!!

Oh please! He stubbed his toe, and all that's left of the statue is its foot! The connections are obvious.

Jacob has a foot fetish.

[Ben]

If anything else, the fact that this episode proved that Jacob was a master of karate and friendship made it absolutely amazing.That's fucking hilarious.

[The Human Target]

Did anyone else laugh at how casually Jacob said everyone before had died? It was almost flippant.

Jacob is a total dickbag.

"I want people to do what I want, but I'm not gonna tell them what I want. And if they don't, I'm gonna let an evil black cloud kill them."

Fucker.


It all worked pretty well for me. I liked that they didnt even really indicate how long he was chained down there. This episode hit all the right emotional buttons, almost as good as Des/Penny reunion.

The bodies didn't decay in the jungle heat, so I figure he couldn't have been down there too long.

While is seems blasphemous in this thread to say so, I do like the show best when its half character and half plot. And this was kinda light on the plot.

[LeggoMyEggolas]

What do you guys think about the "He [Jacob] stole my body" line from the black smoke monster guy?

If Smokey's The Devil, The Devil is a Prince of Lies, so it was a lie to attempt to manipulate Richard. Regarding Smokey and Jacob's "game" I get a bit of a Book of Job mixed with Milton's "Paradise Lost" vibe.

[Shane W]

So can we assume that the flash-sideways are what happened after the man in black has been released?

[Adrian B AWESOME]

What do you guys think about the "He [Jacob] stole my body" line from the black smoke monster guy?

Honestly, I think it has to do with the fact that Smokey is a monster and Jacob keeps him down.

[Foolish Mortal]

This is starting to make me think that Jacob and Man in Black are from the distant future.

Maybe they were involved in some kind of time travel experiment that went wrong and got stuck there on the island.

Maybe whatever energy they were tapping into was the energy source they were using for their experiment, but now that it got fucked up, they have to stay there and guard the island.

[Dreaded Anomaly]

Jacob is a total dickbag.

"I want people to do what I want, but I'm not gonna tell them what I want. And if they don't, I'm gonna let an evil black cloud kill them."

Fucker.

I liked what Richard said to him: "If you don't step in, he will." Jacob wants people to be good of their own accord, but MiB has no problem with influencing them toward evil. It's an intriguing dichotomy.

[PeteL]

Phew. That was fucking SICK. Great episode.

[The Human Target]

This is starting to make me think that Jacob and Man in Black are from the distant future.

Maybe they were involved in some kind of time travel experiment that went wrong and got stuck there on the island.

Maybe whatever energy they were tapping into was the energy source they were using for their experiment, but now that it got fucked up, they have to stay there and guard the island.

Thats where I've been parked since the season finale last year.


I liked what Richard said to him: "If you don't step in, he will." Jacob wants people to be good of their own accord, but MiB has no problem with influencing them toward evil. It's an intriguing dichotomy.

And it kinda makes Richard Alpert into Jesus.

[The Zevad]

But Richard speaks REAL Spanish. How would Hurley recognize all those vosotros conjugations?


Wow. That's was kind of racist. Real spanish? So say someone like me whose spanish originates from Colombia is speaking fake spanish? Is that what you are saying? Oh and Mexicans, Puerto Ricans..yeah they don't count as REAL SPANISH to right? RIGHT?! Is THAT what you are saying?






HAHAHAH Just busting your chops you crazy gringo.


I agree. Enough with the Nightman/Dayman. It's the Man in Black. And Hurley has spoken the appellation. It's canon now. MU-HU-HA-HA-HA!

So you think that Jacob made the Man In Black the host body for this evil he's trying to contain with the island as the cork? And that's what made the Man in Black all smokey and stuff?

[TIP]

Phew. That was fucking SICK. Great episode.

You heard it over your boisterous neighbors?

[Adrian B AWESOME]

This is starting to make me think that Jacob and Man in Black are from the distant future.

Maybe they were involved in some kind of time travel experiment that went wrong and got stuck there on the island.

Maybe whatever energy they were tapping into was the energy source they were using for their experiment, but now that it got fucked up, they have to stay there and guard the island.

:lol: Wat? :lol:

[TIP]

Wow. That's was kind of racist. Real spanish? So say someone like me whose spanish originates from Colombia is speaking fake spanish? Is that what you are saying? Oh and Mexicans, Puerto Ricans..yeah they don't count as REAL SPANISH to right? RIGHT?! Is THAT what you are saying?




What form of Spanish is that?

:crazy:

[late]

So in the Sideways, the cork is underwater? Does "darkness spread"?

[jamestolliver]

Some people thought this episode was lacking in plot? The function of the island was pretty much spelled out for us. I thought it was wonderful episode with the same fantastic characters that have really defined this show.

[Dreaded Anomaly]

So in the Sideways, the cork is underwater? Does "darkness spread"?

The speed of darkness is faster than the speed of light.

[TIP]

:lol: Wat? :lol:

Shh!

He's clearly seen/read/held the Cassius Clay versus Clark Kent comique.

[Foolish Mortal]

Jacob is a total dickbag.

"I want people to do what I want, but I'm not gonna tell them what I want. And if they don't, I'm gonna let an evil black cloud kill them."

Fucker.
That's not what he said. He wanted people to see that they were capable of more than they thought. He can show them the direction, but he can't order them to walk in that direction.

[TIP]

The speed of darkness is faster than the speed of light.

Where the White Lanterns at?

[The Human Target]

Some people thought this episode was lacking in plot? The function of the island was pretty much spelled out for us. I thought it was wonderful episode with the same fantastic characters that have really defined this show.

Did we not already know that Jacob was keeping Smokey trapped on the island because in theory smokey is a bad mofo?

[Jew Mafia]

So in the Sideways, the cork is underwater? Does "darkness spread"?

Yes, and it's a delicious spread. It tastes great on a asiago bagel.

[Patrick J]

Thoughts;

Perhaps the Man in Black, who keeps telling everyone that they'll soon be able to leave the island, is merely waiting out for the timeline(s) to merge and catch up with one another, and that is how/when he'll make his escape.

If the cork/bottle represents "The Island" as that thing which encapsulate "Evil" (The Man in Black) then the Man in Black, knowing that even if he kills Jacob then someone will only replace him, worked through the Dharma Initiative and other persons/places/things to simply destroy The Island (his Prison) as a way of breaking free.

And so the flash-sideways world, where (almost) everyone seems to be getting their hearts desire, at least on some level, is in fact a fake and flawed, and evil world where evil had finally managed to escape (since in that timeline, The Island, MiB's Prison has been destroyed).

One thing I doubt we'll ever get a clear answer on is the true origins/nature/back stories of Jacob and The Man in Black. We won't get any clear answer as to whether or not MiB is Satan or not, in the end he simply represent all that is evil and we don't need to know anymore than that, and so we won't be given any clear answers, but we the viewer will be allowed to come to our own conclusions/opinions on such matters. Whether or not he's the Biblical Satan, or even if the Island is supposed to The Garden of Eden matters not - what matters is the story being told about the people on this island. In that regard you could almost call "The Island" a MacGuffin.

[Thudpucker]

So can we assume that the flash-sideways are what happened after the man in black has been released?

I hope so. It's seems more and more like Jacob is the one who is evil.

[The Human Target]

That's not what he said. He wanted people to see that they were capable of more than they thought. He can show them the direction, but he can't order them to walk in that direction.

Potato, potato.


I just realized that saying doesn't work when you type it out. :mad:

[Adrian B AWESOME]

Shh!

He's clearly seen/read/held the Cassius Clay versus Clark Kent comique.

TIP, WE are the greatest!

[TIP]

Yes, and it's a delicious spread. It tastes great on a asiago bagel.

Great pate...but I gotta motor if I want to make that funeral.

[TIP]

TIP, WE are the greatest!

Bloat like a butter tiger, sting like an Adrian B Awesome

[The Human Target]

I hope so. It's seems more and more like Jacob is the one who is evil.

I think that for sure Jacob is the "good guy" and MiB is the "bad guy."

But just like the characters on the show things aren't that simple.

The heroes are generally flawed and the villains are often times sympathetic.

[The Zevad]

What form of Spanish is that?

:crazy:


No se mi amigo. No se.

Stache?

[Jew Mafia]

quoting from one of my lcs guys


Anybody else catch the two allusions to chaos theory in this episode? Not only did we see a blue butterfly enter the hold of the Black Rock (the butterfly effect), but Richard was then unable to free himself from his shackles "for want of a nail." for more on that see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_Want_of_a_Nail_%28proverb%29

I didn't notice the butterfly at all.

[Ben]

So in the Sideways, the cork is underwater? Does "darkness spread"?I may have to rewatch the movie Sideways to understand how the wine connects with these flashsideways.

[The Human Target]

Also, I've had an upset stomach since Friday.

And my gut pit is now making sounds akin to the Smoke Monster.

Evidently my colon is a devils' trap for evil.

[The Human Target]

quoting from one of my lcs guys



I didn't notice the butterfly at all.

The butterfly is really awkwardly animated when it enters the black rock. It like half vanishes.

[The Zevad]

Hurley is the closest thing to a actual good guy who isn't a selfish bastard on that show. And would be the most deserving of the power upgrade.

He's going to die soon. I just know it.

[Ben]

Are we ever going to find out how those warthogs got onto the island? And are they on Jacob's or the smoke monster's side?

[Fake Pat]

One thing I doubt we'll ever get a clear answer on is the true origins/nature/back stories of Jacob and The Man in Black. We won't get any clear answer as to whether or not MiB is Satan or not, in the end he simply represent all that is evil and we don't need to know anymore than that, and so we won't be given any clear answers, but we the viewer will be allowed to come to our own conclusions/opinions on such matters. Whether or not he's the Biblical Satan, or even if the Island is supposed to The Garden of Eden matters not - what matters is the story being told about the people on this island. In that regard you could almost call "The Island" a MacGuffin.

Holy hell, would I be annoyed.

[Ben]

Hurley is the closest thing to a actual good guy who isn't a selfish bastard on that show. And would be the most deserving of the power upgrade.

He's going to die soon. I just know it.Which is ironic because he's a visual representation of gluttony.

[Nick Spencer]

The "insane mother" from last week's ep is pure gnosticism (Sophia).

[The Zevad]

Which is ironic because he's a visual representation of gluttony.


Damn. This board is prejudiced!



:lol:

[RickLM]

Some people thought this episode was lacking in plot? The function of the island was pretty much spelled out for us. I thought it was wonderful episode with the same fantastic characters that have really defined this show.


I agree, it was a great episode. In the first few minutes, when they were sitting around the fire, I thought "Oh no, loads of clunky exposition." But then they managed to focus 9/10ths of the show just on Richard's tragic life and in so doing explaining many of the essential themes in a non-clunky way. This is my favorite episode of the season.

[Adrian B AWESOME]

I may have to rewatch the movie Sideways to understand how the wine connects with these flashsideways.

:lol: Excellent.

[James Patrick]

The simple constuction of the flashback being bookended by the current and not intercut was a nice break from format too. I don't know why they don't do it more often. I swear they shackle themselves with that sometimes.

[jamestolliver]

The "insane mother" from last week's ep is pure gnosticism (Sophia).

I think the MiB is secretly the long lost love child of Rochester and Bertha. The island is secretly Thornfield and John Locke is Jane.

[Ben Rosen]

agreed!

also agreed! have you seen kate beaton and nedroid's lost comics on twitter? I WOULD LIKE TO SEE YOU JOIN IN.

[Ben]

The simple constuction of the flashback being bookended by the current and not intercut was a nice break from format too. I don't know why they don't do it more often. I swear they shackle themselves with that sometimes.Because when they do break from it, it's for something really special. It's like anal.

[Fake Pat]

Because when they do break from it, it's for something really special. It's like anal.

...only slightly shittier.

[andrew french]

also agreed! have you seen kate beaton and nedroid's lost comics on twitter? I WOULD LIKE TO SEE YOU JOIN IN.

haha, I've seen another lj cartoonist doing some LOST comics and they were awesome; I had a little one I sketched out the other week. Perhaps I'll knock some out in celebration of this last season..!

[mitchymitchymitchy]

But Richard speaks REAL Spanish. How would Hurley recognize all those vosotros conjugations?

This line made me laugh until tears came out of my eyes.
This is for all us kids that took spanish in high school. Thanks

[BriRedfern]

I hope so. It's seems more and more like Jacob is the one who is evil.

To each their own, but I can't believe you are still going with this. I really can't. Its like we are watching two different shows.

[Mike McNeely]

Who knew a boat that size could get that much air from stormy water and make it that far inland, especially after smashing though a giant stoned statue.

[BriRedfern]

Who knew a boat that size could get that much air from stormy water and make it that far inland, especially after smashing though a giant stoned statue.

Loved the episode, but this annoyed me too. I never got the impression thatg the black rock was anywhere near the statue... I honestly thought there would be a better explination of how it got so far inland, and I am not begging for a lot of explination from the show in general.

[The Human Target]

Who knew a boat that size could get that much air from stormy water and make it that far inland, especially after smashing though a giant stoned statue.

The same people who accepted a 747 crashing on an island with a like 90% survival rate. ;-)

[Fygar]

I think Desmond is gonna be the new Richard.

I thought the same thing during this episode. Which is weird, because I'm not even exactly sure why I think that way.

I too thought it was a wonderful episode. It was a change of pace execution wise, Richard is a great character we don't see enough of, the acting was particularly strong and there was a reveal or two...what more could you want?

[Elven Johnny]

Hurley is the closest thing to a actual good guy who isn't a selfish bastard on that show. And would be the most deserving of the power upgrade.

He's going to die soon. I just know it.

No way will Hurley die, he's going to save them all (well, he'll probably do something important even if not save everyone).

At various points throughout the series different characters have told Hurley that maybe he just wasn't meant to be on "this flight" -- flight 816. The flight attendant told Hurley that as she took his ticket, Hurley's alarm didn't go off on time, etc. There have been other instances of this but those are the examples that come to mind right now.

Hurley wasn't supposed to be on the plane, but Jacob made sure Hurley was because he will potentially save them all, or fix things, or do something fairly important. Obviously I have no idea what exactly Hurley's role will be, but it seems like he has some kind of power/destiny he has yet to realize. I read a theory somewhere that Hurley was able to get the car running because he willed it and has a connection with the island. Regardless of if that turns out to be true or not, the writers seem to have hinted on a couple of occasions (like with the car) that Hurley has some kind of power/potential/destiny on the island.

I'm not saying Hurley will be a big hero or even replace Jacob (that will likely be Jack if it's anyone) but I think Hurley will still play an important role. Of course, an important role doesn't always mean he'll live; his important role could be to sacrifice himself at the right moment thus doing whatever Jacob needed him for (which would pretty much confirm Hurley's idea he was cursed if Jacob's big plan for him was just as a sacrifice).

[BriRedfern]

No way will Hurley die, he's going to save them all (well, he'll probably do something important even if not save everyone).

At various points throughout the series different characters have told Hurley that maybe he just wasn't meant to be on "this flight" -- flight 816. The flight attendant told Hurley that as she took his ticket, Hurley's alarm didn't go off on time, etc. There have been other instances of this but those are the examples that come to mind right now.

Hurley wasn't supposed to be on the plane, but Jacob made sure Hurley was because he will potentially save them all, or fix things, or do something fairly important. Obviously I have no idea what exactly Hurley's role will be, but it seems like he has some kind of power/destiny he has yet to realize. I read a theory somewhere that Hurley was able to get the car running because he willed it and has a connection with the island. Regardless of if that turns out to be true or not, the writers seem to have hinted on a couple of occasions (like with the car) that Hurley has some kind of power/potential/destiny on the island.

I'm not saying Hurley will be a big hero or even replace Jacob (that will likely be Jack if it's anyone) but I think Hurley will still play an important role. Of course, an important role doesn't always mean he'll live; his important role could be to sacrifice himself at the right moment thus doing whatever Jacob needed him for (which would pretty much confirm Hurley's idea he was cursed if Jacob's big plan for him was just as a sacrifice).
You forgot to mention that he can talk to dead people. That's gotta be somethin'.

[RoShambo]

Just started watching the episode a few minutes ago-had to DVR it(at least I get to skip the commercials this time).

Did we end up getting a translation of Hurley's Spanish?
I could just about make out
"Yes, I can help.
I don't know how we'll find...."

[DC Camel]

The same people who accepted a 747 crashing on an island with a like 90% survival rate. ;-)

And also accepting that Jacob made someone immortal...also did Jacob basically baptize Richard at the beach?

[BriRedfern]

Just started watching the episode a few minutes ago-had to DVR it(at least I get to skip the commercials this time).

Did we end up getting a translation of Hurley's Spanish?
I could just about make out
"Yes, I can help.
I don't know how we'll find...."

Hope you have the FIOS. My DVR recorded it all, but it did run over five minutes tonight. Fuck you Comcast/xfinity!

[SeanC]

Who knew a boat that size could get that much air from stormy water and make it that far inland, especially after smashing though a giant stoned statue.

Jacob created the storm. He said, "I brought your boat here."

[RoShambo]

Hope you have the FIOS. My DVR recorded it all, but it did run over five minutes tonight. Fuck you Comcast/xfinity!

Nah, Time/Warner, but it said it was scheduled from 9-10:06, and the recording says it went 1:06.
We'll see I guess.

[BriRedfern]

Nah, Time/Warner, but it said it was scheduled from 9-10:06, and the recording says it went 1:06.
We'll see I guess.

Yeah, you're good.

[RegHorsten]

He's not even a candidate!

One of the Oceanic 6 are supposed to replace Jacob. I wonder if a new Richard will be picked from the Oceanic 6?

[RegHorsten]

I got a question has Hurley ever killed anybody since he has been on the island?

[dougmac]

Loved the episode, but this annoyed me too. I never got the impression thatg the black rock was anywhere near the statue... I honestly thought there would be a better explination of how it got so far inland, and I am not begging for a lot of explination from the show in general.

pretend the storm was bad enough that the island was slightly flooded and it drifted in.

[BriRedfern]

pretend the storm was bad enough that the island was slightly flooded and it drifted in.

I'm gonna pretend so hard.




;)

[James Patrick]

I got a question has Hurley ever killed anybody since he has been on the island?

didn't he hit a guy with a bus?

[Elven Johnny]

You forgot to mention that he can talk to dead people. That's gotta be somethin'.

Oh, yeah. I shouldn't leave out the power he . . . you know . . . actually displayed in the episode. :lol:

Very true; talking to the dead will likely continue to serve a function and help Jacob in his endgame.


I got a question has Hurley ever killed anybody since he has been on the island?

Hurley has had people around him die, but as best I can remember Hurley has never been responsible for killing anyone on purpose, or accidentally, on or off the island.

[RegHorsten]

didn't he hit a guy with a bus?

Yeah but the guy didn't die. I think Sawyer or Sayid killed him. If you mean the VW.

[BriRedfern]

Oh, yeah. I shouldn't leave out the power he . . . you know . . . actually displayed in the episode. :lol:

Very true; talking to the dead will likely continue to serve a function and help Jacob in his endgame.



Hurley has had people around him die, but as best I can remember Hurley has never been responsible for killing anyone on purpose, or accidentally, on or off the island.

He has definitely killed people accidently off island. His fat ass brought that deck down. That was his fault, and he went straight to Hell for it.

[Elven Johnny]

I was wrong. Hurley has killed two people, but it was by accident.

According to his entry on lostopedia (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Hurley), Hurley walked out onto a deck, causing it to collapse and inadvertently killing two people. He then had a break down and his mother committed him to the Santa Rosa Mental Hospital.

I'd forgotten all about this part of his story.

Edit: Or see BriRedFern's post above this one. Oh, well, if nothing else you got a link to Hurley's back story out of it.

[RegHorsten]

I was wrong. Hurley has killed two people, but it was by accident.

According to his entry on lostopedia (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Hurley), Hurley walked out onto a deck, causing it to collapse and inadvertently killing two people. He then had a break down and his mother committed him to the Santa Rosa Mental Hospital.

I'd forgotten all about this part of his story.

Edit: Or see BriRedFern's post above this one. Oh, well, if nothing else you got a link to Hurley's back story out of it.

Yeah but no one on the island.

[Elven Johnny]

Yeah but no one on the island.

Having read further through his entry, he apparently killed the guy he ran over with the VW van. The text is towards the bottom of the entry "Days 69 - 91 (Season Three)."

Someone else had said the guy didn't die, but I don't know for sure. Thinking about it seems the guy dies, but as I said I'm not positive which source is right.

To the DVDs!

[Stark Raving]

That was just a goddamned great episode.
I'm really going to miss this show.

[Supreme Convoy]

What a stunning episode! Really well done.

[RegHorsten]

That was just a goddamned great episode.
I'm really going to miss this show.

Yeah I have been thinking the same since the start of this season.

[justjeffery]

Great episode... just fantastic. I really like Richard.. probably because I really like the actor.. but still.. and I love the interaction between Jacob and the mib...

Oh.. to answer about the ship hitting the statue and landing so far inland... that was one BIG statue... for the ship to have hit the head, it had to be on top of one HUGE freaking tidal wave.. which would have washed the ship miles inland.

[RoShambo]

Just started watching the episode a few minutes ago-had to DVR it(at least I get to skip the commercials this time).

Did we end up getting a translation of Hurley's Spanish?
I could just about make out
"Yes, I can help.
I don't know how we'll find...."

I guess we found out that he was talking to Isabella and that she was trying to find him (or her necklace :lol:).

[BWC Boston]

pretend the storm was bad enough that the island was slightly flooded and it drifted in.
Actually the force of that big a wave probably could knock a statue down AND wash that ship pretty far inland.

[nick maynard]

who else thought of baptism when jacob was dunking richard in the water?

also, i wonder how they'll reconcile the major themes of this show. it seems like the idea of free will vs. fate conflicts with the idea of the inherent goodness of man. like, if fate exists, then the concepts of good an evil are moot.

loved seeing old smokey.

also, jacob gives smokey the white rock. then i think it ended up on that scale in the cave.

top 5 episodes of the show ever.

[CougarTrace]

who else thought of baptism when jacob was dunking richard in the water?

also, i wonder how they'll reconcile the major themes of this show. it seems like the idea of free will vs. fate conflicts with the idea of the inherent goodness of man. like, if fate exists, then the concepts of good an evil are moot.

loved seeing old smokey.

also, jacob gives smokey the white rock. then i think it ended up on that scale in the cave.

top 5 episodes of the show ever.

absolutely

interesting of the deals offered from mib to old richard and the deal offered to sayid on lost by the samurai dude in the temple with the offering to kill Jacob/Locke with the dagger

[Big McLargeHuge]

Boooorrrrrriiiinngggg!!!!

[Dark Sasha]

Are we ever going to find out how those warthogs got onto the island? And are they on Jacob's or the smoke monster's side?

The second last episode is warthog centric.

[Jonny Z]

FUCK!!!! someone beat me to this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jg5OxQlj5zY

[Big McLargeHuge]

It all worked pretty well for me. I liked that they didnt even really indicate how long he was chained down there. This episode hit all the right emotional buttons, almost as good as Des/Penny reunion.

No! A million times NOOO!!!!!

[BronxRonin]

My favorite episode to date.

[SeanC]

The episodes was fantastic. I was thoroughly entertained throughout the entire thing. I forgot I was watchin' 'Lost' and was just enthralled with Richard's story as its own seperate entity. And even if you didn't like the overall episode - HOW COULD YOU HATE THE HURLEY/RICARDO/ISABELLA scene!? I was weepin' man-tears.

[Rafiennes]

Hurley seems to be in synch with the island more than anyone -- he's seeing spirits and the only one that can see jacob. He's gotta be the one who gets picked to watch the island...and open a Mr. Clucks there.

[hamgravy]

Haven't read the rest of the thread but some of my LIKES from the episode:

- LOVED how the actor who plays MiB brought the same diction and mannerisms to the part that Terry O' Quinn has established since his rebirth.
- Hurley the unlikely hero continues! It's not all about you Jack!
- Seeing Jacob as more than a one-note seer.
- The cork analogy and then broken bottle rebuttal
- Permanent Eyeliner

NOT digging:
- Lost love as a motivating factor for yet another character
- The too easy and faulty logic of enlisting Ricardo as an emissary. I appreciated the "if you don't he will" argument but then setting up a level of bureaucracy doesn't really insulate anyone from Jacob's direct influence.
- Locke/MiB looking to camera. I guffawed.
- The hammer on an anvil subtlety of the musical stings

[hamgravy]

One of the Oceanic 6 are supposed to replace Jacob. I wonder if a new Richard will be picked from the Oceanic 6?

And will someone else be the new MiB?

Seems like he was also once human and has become an conduit for the evil behind the cork.

[Evan the Shaggy]

Its funny, I never suspected Richard was ACTUALLY immortal, I thought he was just blipping in and out of time or something.

[hamgravy]

Its funny, I never suspected Richard was ACTUALLY immortal, I thought he was just blipping in and out of time or something.

And the logic behind it was actually pretty powerful stuff.

[Big McLargeHuge]

The episodes was fantastic. I was thoroughly entertained throughout the entire thing. I forgot I was watchin' 'Lost' and was just enthralled with Richard's story as its own seperate entity. And even if you didn't like the overall episode - HOW COULD YOU HATE THE HURLEY/RICARDO/ISABELLA scene!? I was weepin' man-tears.

That scene was really the only one that worked for me. Everything before felt kind of vanilla. Also, I think this episode should've switched with last week's. I think it would've flowed better. But I know I'm in the minority so I'll leave it at that.

[Big McLargeHuge]

- The cork analogy and then broken bottle rebuttal


It's like what Paul Rudd said in Forgetting Sarah Marshall: "When life gives you lemons, just say fuck the lemons and bail"

[Jew Mafia]

And will someone else be the new MiB?

Seems like he was also once human and has become an conduit for the evil behind the cork.

Could be they're setting up Sayid for that possibility.

[Rafiennes]

At one point last night, I forgot I was watching Lost and thought I'd switched to Telemundo.

[hamgravy]

Could be they're setting up Sayid for that possibility.

Or Sawyer...

But it would be more interesting if it was Jack as MiB.

Would require a last-minute switcheroo on their arcs though.

[Dark Sasha]

But Sawyer is too charming to be a rapist.

[Rafiennes]

But Sawyer is too charming to be a rapist.

Charm makes the best kind of rapists.
Ok, I'm going to hell now for having said that.

[hamgravy]

Charm makes the best kind of rapists.
Ok, I'm going to hell now for having said that.

Bring the wine.

[Adrian B AWESOME]

Hurley seems to be in synch with the island more than anyone -- he's seeing spirits and the only one that can see jacob. He's gotta be the one who gets picked to watch the island...and open a Mr. Clucks there.

Except for Locke, sure.

[HoldFastNow]

Fantastic episode! Nestor did a really great job.

It was neat finally seeing how the statue broke and how the Black Rock appeared on the island (I always assumed that the island just "popped up" under it during the time flashes).

One thing of note, iirc, Isabella is only the second ghost (third is Dave was really a ghost) to appear on the island who didn't have their body on the island (the other being Ben's mom). When young Ben meets Richard in the jungle for the first time he mentions seeing his dead loved one, which gave the two something in common from that point.

[Adrian B AWESOME]

A new MiB? Locke is the new MiB.

[Dark Sasha]

You forget how good this show is constructed. Really.

[Cth]

Except for Locke, sure.

If only they'd bury the body, he'd be even closer to the Island ;)

[Ryan_ZOOM_Turner]

Great episode. People who say that this is filler, don't like good storytelling.

[hamgravy]

A new MiB? Locke is the new MiB.

No, that's only the old MiB in Locke's form.

My point is that Jacob and MiB had a history before we met them.

What if we've been watching the history that leads to two candidates becoming the new Jacob AND the new MiB.

At least one character needs a tragic ending.

Claire and Sayid becoming "corrupted" is an awful fate but not tragic on the level of someone being consciously doomed as evil's avatar.

[artimoff]

I wonder why Smokey didn't try to corrupt the Dharma folks. That's a story I want to see told.

[Marc Lombardi]

No, that's only the old MiB in Locke's form.

My point is that Jacob and MiB had a history before we met them.

What if we've been watching the history that leads to two candidates becoming the new Jacob AND the new MiB.

At least one character needs a tragic ending.

Claire and Sayid becoming "corrupted" is an awful fate but not tragic on the level of someone being consciously doomed as evil's avatar.

Sounds like Kate to me.

[Adrian B AWESOME]

I wonder why Smokey didn't try to corrupt the Dharma folks. That's a story I want to see told.

Sonic fences.