I don't know much about politics, but...

[dasNdanger]

I love this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYlZiWK2Iy8


:lol:


das

[Hoggie]

Oh Das, there is a whole thread dedicated to these kind of stories.

[dasNdanger]

Oh Das, there is a whole thread dedicated to these kind of stories.

Wot? Smack-downs? :)


das

[totalsellout]

i think frank vs. the crazy lady rates it's own thread

[dasNdanger]

i think frank vs. the crazy lady rates it's own thread

Me too! :D


das

[woljed]

I don't know much...but I know I love youuuuu.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbmcvLy1kqU

[dasNdanger]

I don't know much...but I know I love youuuuu.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbmcvLy1kqU

Awwww...shucks. *kicks pebble* I love you, too! :D


das

[Jason Baur]

Oh, Barney Frank. You're one of my favorites. So feisty.

[stevapalooza]

So after 8 years of liberals yelling "the president is a Nazi!" and conservatives getting their panties in a knot, we now have conservatives yelling "the president is a Nazi!" and liberals getting their panties in a knot. I love change!!

[dasNdanger]

So after 8 years of liberals yelling "the president is a Nazi!" and conservatives getting their panties in a knot, we now have conservatives yelling "the president is a Nazi!" and liberals getting their panties in a knot. I love change!!

I think it's the subject matter.

For eight years people questioned the government about things such as:

1. Deceptions over the war.
2. The torture of war prisoners who may - or may not be - terrorists.
3. Government wiretapping.

(Amongst other similar things)

Just a couple hundred days, and people are condemning the new guy for:

1. Trying to provide health care for the citizens of the USofA.

I've said before that I'm not politically inclined, and it's this sort of thing that makes me distance myself even more from the political machine and its followers. It's as if choosing a side in politics takes away an individual's very ability to reason. Scary as hell, if you ask me.


das

[Brian Defferding]

So after 8 years of liberals yelling "the president is a Nazi!" and conservatives getting their panties in a knot, we now have conservatives yelling "the president is a Nazi!" and liberals getting their panties in a knot. I love change!!

There are some sites reporting that the girl could be a LaRouche acolyte (http://washingtonindependent.com/55566/was-barney-franks-nazi-questioner-a-larouchie), who ran as a Democrat.

[cmoney]

I've said before that I'm not politically inclined, and it's this sort of thing that makes me distance myself even more from the political machine and its followers. It's as if choosing a side in politics takes away an individual's very ability to reason. Scary as hell, if you ask me.

Tell me about it. I got my degree in political science, and I can't even stay interested in politics anymore. But Frank's response was completely appropriate to the level of discourse the woman initiated. :)

[usagi20]

When I saw that, I thought, "You tell 'em, Barney Frank!"

[BAMF]

Heh. Barney reps my district...he's entertaining.

[Cradleman]

Well, I dislike Obama, but he is by no means Hitler. I consider President Obama a socialist because he wants government involvement in everything(GM, healthcare, etc.), and he wants to take from the rich and give to the poor(which is definitely a socialist philosophy) by taxing rich people at a higher rate than poorer people and by giving money to those who don't work for it(welfare). And i don't attack Obama for wanting everybody in the U.S. covered with good health insurance, I attack him for a government takeover of healthcare. That said, Frank way overreacted, and was in poor taste towards this woman(as much as he disagreed, he should have been civil about it).

[Oeming]

http://michaeloeming.com/?p=538

[Jason Baur]

There are some sites reporting that the girl could be a LaRouche acolyte (http://washingtonindependent.com/55566/was-barney-franks-nazi-questioner-a-larouchie), who ran as a Democrat.

Yeah, the LaRouche mob is out in full force against health care reform. Which should be your first indication that despite the fact that LaRouche is nominally a Democrat, he's really his own thing. And that thing is, in a word, CAAA-RAZY.

[bartleby]

There are some sites reporting that the girl could be a LaRouche acolyte (http://washingtonindependent.com/55566/was-barney-franks-nazi-questioner-a-larouchie), who ran as a Democrat.

Hey, Brian, I thought we weren't supposed to use the crazy fringe members of a political party to define the party as a whole.

[Chunky Ink]

Thankfully, Fox & Friends tells us what really happened. (http://mediamatters.org/research/200908190020)

:mistrust:

:jackoff::jackoff:

[bartleby]

Thankfully, Fox & Friends tells us what really happened. (http://mediamatters.org/research/200908190020)

:mistrust:

:jackoff::jackoff:


I wonder what planet Steve Doocy spends most of his time on.

[cmoney]

That said, Frank way overreacted, and was in poor taste towards this woman(as much as he disagreed, he should have been civil about it).

No, he didn't. She set the tone.

[Blue Flash]

Well, I dislike Obama, but he is by no means Hitler. I consider President Obama a socialist because he wants government involvement in everything(GM, healthcare, etc.), and he wants to take from the rich and give to the poor(which is definitely a socialist philosophy) by taxing rich people at a higher rate than poorer people and by giving money to those who don't work for it(welfare). And i don't attack Obama for wanting everybody in the U.S. covered with good health insurance, I attack him for a government takeover of healthcare. That said, Frank way overreacted, and was in poor taste towards this woman(as much as he disagreed, he should have been civil about it).

I really wish for ONE person in America to actually use the word "socialist" according to the dictionary definition and not as a cheap-shot dirty-word hungover from McCarthyism.

And Frank in no way overreacted, but put in a hateful person in her place by using wit and humour, thereby showing him to be more tasteful and intelligent than her, even in his dismissive attitude.

[stevapalooza]

I think it's the subject matter.

For eight years people questioned the government about things such as:

1. Deceptions over the war.
2. The torture of war prisoners who may - or may not be - terrorists.
3. Government wiretapping.

(Amongst other similar things)

Just a couple hundred days, and people are condemning the new guy for:

1. Trying to provide health care for the citizens of the USofA.

I've said before that I'm not politically inclined, and it's this sort of thing that makes me distance myself even more from the political machine and its followers. It's as if choosing a side in politics takes away an individual's very ability to reason. Scary as hell, if you ask me.
das

Yeah I agree there. I wouldn't call even a bad health care plan Nazi-like. It's health care!

[bartleby]

Yeah I agree there. I wouldn't call even a bad health care plan Nazi-like. It's health care!

What if the health care plan includes a provision for dispensing of old people through gas chambers and crematorium ovens?

[Cradleman]

No, he didn't. She set the tone.

You're right, I'm sorry. the golden rule was "do unto others as they did to you." Why didn't I see it before? Oh, wait a minute. . . seriously though, just because she said something stupid doesn't mean that he should have been classless about it. he should have taken the high road. he didn't and now he looks like a jerk.

[bartleby]

he didn't and now he looks like a jerk.

The only people who think he looks like a jerk are people who didn't like him before. I seriously doubt anybody's opinion of Barney Frank was changed greatly by this.

[stevapalooza]

What if the health care plan includes a provision for dispensing of old people through gas chambers and crematorium ovens?

Then I'd call it the greatest health care plan ever!

[Cradleman]

The only people who think he looks like a jerk are people who didn't like him before. I seriously doubt anybody's opinion of Barney Frank was changed greatly by this.

Ok, true, i have never liked him. however, he could have improved his standing greatly in my eyes by handling it the proper way. he didn't and therefore i think less of him instead of more.

[cmoney]

You're right, I'm sorry. the golden rule was "do unto others as they did to you." Why didn't I see it before? Oh, wait a minute. . . seriously though, just because she said something stupid doesn't mean that he should have been classless about it. he should have taken the high road. he didn't and now he looks like a jerk.

Again, no. It is not his duty to accommodate that sort of crazy. If she could have been ignored completely, that would have been best, but to treat it with undue respect as if it were even worth discussing does no justice to the discourse. He doesn't look like a jerk.

[bartleby]

Ok, true, i have never liked him. however, he could have improved his standing greatly in my eyes...

I seriously doubt that.

[Cradleman]

I really wish for ONE person in America to actually use the word "socialist" according to the dictionary definition and not as a cheap-shot dirty-word hungover from McCarthyism.

from the webster's online dictionary


* Main Entry: so·cial·ism
* Pronunciation: \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\
* Function: noun
* Date: 1837

1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

just so you believe me, here's the link
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

1. the government has already taken over GM, and wants to run healthcare.
2. b. if the government runs GM, it is owning and controlling the means of production
3. taxing rich to give welfare to the poor.

well, i used the dictionary definition of socialism. and hey look! I was right. now let's see how you tell me I'm wrong. I'm curious to see this.

[Jibberwashed]

from the webster's online dictionary


* Main Entry: so·cial·ism
* Pronunciation: \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\
* Function: noun
* Date: 1837

1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

just so you believe me, here's the link
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

1. the government has already taken over GM, and wants to run healthcare.
2. b. if the government runs GM, it is owning and controlling the means of production
3. taxing rich to give welfare to the poor.

well, i used the dictionary definition of socialism. and hey look! I was right. now let's see how you tell me I'm wrong. I'm curious to see this.

Isn't the government "takeover" of GM really just a loan to them? GM has to pay it back, and while that makes the government stakeholders and an influence in a means of production, I don't think it means they are owning and controlling it. Maybe it's like socialism lite.

Yes, maybe it is socialist to be taxing the rich, but I don't think it's to give welfare to the poor. Aren't the majority of taxes used for things like education, military spending, and transportation? You could call it socialism because it is an unequal burden upon the rich, but I don't think it's exactly taxing the rich to give to the poor.

As far as health care, we live in a ridiculous system where we don't crack the top 20, yet we pay the most for it. One can't really say it's because our government is too involved in our health care system, because other national governments like Isreal, France, and the UK have much more government involvement at a much better price and quality to their patrons. If health care costs continue to grow, then we're basically making it something that only the wealthier individuals of society can afford, systematically killing the poor. That sounds much more dangerous to me.

[Jibberwashed]

I've never had a high opinion of Barney Frank until I saw this video.

[Corwin: Bear Fighter]

Well, I dislike Obama, but he is by no means Hitler. I consider President Obama a socialist because he wants government involvement in everything(GM, healthcare, etc.), and he wants to take from the rich and give to the poor(which is definitely a socialist philosophy) by taxing rich people at a higher rate than poorer people and by giving money to those who don't work for it(welfare). And i don't attack Obama for wanting everybody in the U.S. covered with good health insurance, I attack him for a government takeover of healthcare. That said, Frank way overreacted, and was in poor taste towards this woman(as much as he disagreed, he should have been civil about it).

http://n3t.net/humor/motivation/high_horse.jpg

[King of Mars]

Ok, true, i have never liked him. however, he could have improved his standing greatly in my eyes by handling it the proper way. he didn't and therefore i think less of him instead of more.That chick is a mean-spirited little pissant who was there solely to make a scene. He handled her appropriately.

[badpoet]

At some point, even elected officials have to say "fuck the high road". It's gotten to that point. They've had death threats, people carrying guns, been shouted down at their forums, and been chased out of meetings by these fucking retards. Frank was nice compared to what most of us would have done in a similar situation.

It's like the crazy people think they've bought tickets to a football game and are going there and doing crazy things to ruin everyone else's enjoyment on purpose but don't expect someone to kick their ass for it. You have freedom of speech, but not to the point where you're threatening or intimidating others.

As for the socialism argument, it's the Red Scare Part II. If there's a public option, which there should be, people can still keep their own insurance. Even if we went all the way, as we probably should, and socialized it all, we'd end up with a better system overall and we'd pay less. So, for me, socialize this shit now. I have great health insurance personally, but I'd be more than happy to go to full socialization if it meant helping every other American get coverage. We'd be a better country for it.

[Cradleman]

At some point, even elected officials have to say "fuck the high road". It's gotten to that point. They've had death threats, people carrying guns, been shouted down at their forums, and been chased out of meetings by these fucking retards. Frank was nice compared to what most of us would have done in a similar situation.

It's like the crazy people think they've bought tickets to a football game and are going there and doing crazy things to ruin everyone else's enjoyment on purpose but don't expect someone to kick their ass for it. You have freedom of speech, but not to the point where you're threatening or intimidating others.

As for the socialism argument, it's the Red Scare Part II. If there's a public option, which there should be, people can still keep their own insurance. Even if we went all the way, as we probably should, and socialized it all, we'd end up with a better system overall and we'd pay less. So, for me, socialize this shit now. I have great health insurance personally, but I'd be more than happy to go to full socialization if it meant helping every other American get coverage. We'd be a better country for it.

wow, just wow. I don't know about any death threats. If there has, they need to stop. As for someone carrying a gun, IT'S HIS FREAKIN' RIGHT! OMG! IT'S IS THE SECOND AMENDMENT! He has a permit, and has it in the open. It's only illegal to have a concealed weapon. and, you know why it is the right of an American citizen to have a gun? to defend ourselves, not assassinate a president(which by the way, he never would have been able to do, as the gun was in plain sight all along.). And if you make guns illegal, the only people who won't have them are the ones who actually need them. criminals BREAK THE LAW! Why do they care if there is a law that people can't have guns? they break the law for a living! anyways, senators get shouted down at forums for lying and trying to pass a lousy bill. Arlen Specter admitted he didn't read the bill. another guy(who's name i forget) said it would create a 6(i think, but it might have been more) billion dollar surplus, which is BS. So, they really kinda deserve it. Nobody should be comparing Obama to Hitler, though, and I don't like that people are doing that. He is the President, and agree or not, you should at least give him some respect.

As for socialism, it just doesn't work. never has. need examples? One good historic one is Jamestown. they tried the communal society, and what happened? those who had a good work ethic got all the food for everyone, and the rest sat around and ate the food the others provided. That is why it almost failed. When John Smith removed the communal system, the colony survived. Another example is Brook Farm and other such communal societies that the Transcendtalists tried to start, but failed because it made people lazy. Want a government? how about the Soviet Union? It collapsed because it's economy was terrible. When communist(which is a super-aggressive form of socialism, so it isn't quite the same) East Germany united with West Germany, which was prospering, the poverty in East Germany thanks to the communism nearly crippled it's economy. And although China is surviving now, it had to resort to some Capitalistic policies in order to survive(as Lenin put it, one step back to take two steps forward.) So, socialism/communism really isn't that great. Why? it's because people aren't perfect. In a perfect world, it would work. But is this a perfect world? heck no, which is why it fails.

[Brian Defferding]

Hey, Brian, I thought we weren't supposed to use the crazy fringe members of a political party to define the party as a whole.

Is that what I'm doing here? Strange, I thought I was just noting who she was and where the image came from.

[Jibberwashed]

People are bringing guns to these rallies. Ok. I'm all for second amendment rights, and absolutely agree that if we made guns illegal, we'd have much larger problems, but I think the point is that it's assholish and threatening. I could address every person I see as a "dirty cunt," as it is my first amendment right, but that's not really something that should be encouraged in society, should it? How polite would it be for me to bring an assault rifle when I'm meeting with a realtor to negotiate a price for a piece of property. Sure it's legal, but it doesn't mean it's right. These rallies are threatening enough, and to bring guns into such an aggressive environment just seems irresponsible.

[Cradleman]

People are bringing guns to these rallies. Ok. I'm all for second amendment rights, and absolutely agree that if we made guns illegal, we'd have much larger problems, but I think the point is that it's assholish and threatening. I could address every person I see as a "dirty cunt," as it is my first amendment right, but that's not really something that should be encouraged in society, should it? How polite would it be for me to bring an assault rifle when I'm meeting with a realtor to negotiate a price for a piece of property. Sure it's legal, but it doesn't mean it's right. These rallies are threatening enough, and to bring guns into such an aggressive environment just seems irresponsible.

then post a sign requesting that no one bring a gun, and if they did, that they would be turned away. a law abiding citizen(such as the man with the gun was) would respect it. That said, the President was in no danger at any time, which is the point of having a gun in plain sight. The only thing that man could have used it for was self-defense. which is the point of having a gun in the first place.

[Strikeout]

This town hall meeting is on C-SPAN right now. It's quite interesting listening to Barney Frank discuss things to these people that don't even know how to read the bill in the first place.

And another thing that Barney is doing is explaining things FOR BUSH. Barney is not being condescending unless he's interrupted and trying to explain things that Bush and republicans never thought of explaining for 8 years.

[woljed]

What if the health care plan includes a provision for dispensing of old people through gas chambers and crematorium ovens?

You will obey!

[Jibberwashed]

then post a sign requesting that no one bring a gun, and if they did, that they would be turned away. a law abiding citizen(such as the man with the gun was) would respect it. That said, the President was in no danger at any time, which is the point of having a gun in plain sight. The only thing that man could have used it for was self-defense. which is the point of having a gun in the first place.

They were still assholes for bringing assault rifles in the first place. I'm not attacking their right to bring the guns, but their lack of consideration for those of us that feel threatened or uneasy around assault rifles. How do we know the guy could only use it for self-defense? In a world where people are blowing themselves up in an attempt to kill others, is it really that far of jump to imagine that some dude with an assault rifle might open fire on a crowd, killing him or herself in the process?

[Cradleman]

They were still assholes for bringing assault rifles in the first place. I'm not attacking their right to bring the guns, but their lack of consideration for those of us that feel threatened or uneasy around assault rifles. How do we know the guy could only use it for self-defense? In a world where people are blowing themselves up in an attempt to kill others, is it really that far of jump to imagine that some dude with an assault rifle might open fire on a crowd, killing him or herself in the process?

I know of a guy who brought a handgun to president Obama's meeting. I don't know that i could agree with an assault rifle. Link Please?

[Jibberwashed]

I know of a guy who brought a handgun to president Obama's meeting. I don't know that i could agree with an assault rifle. Link Please?

Here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYBY9dvAcy8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz-c4aUmUfI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edUdCTV3lio

[Cradleman]

Here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYBY9dvAcy8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz-c4aUmUfI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edUdCTV3lio

thanks. I admit that is over the top, and he definitely shouldn't have done that. Now, i don't know how much he could do with his rifle in the position it is in before the cops shot him, but if he wants to bring a gun, he really should stick to a handgun, as the assault rifle is just stupidly inflammatory.

[Strikeout]

thanks. I admit that is over the top, and he definitely shouldn't have done that. Now, i don't know how much he could do with his rifle in the position it is in before the cops shot him, but if he wants to bring a gun, he really should stick to a handgun, as the assault rifle is just stupidly inflammatory.

I know it's the cops/secret service's jobs to do that stuff, but this guy and these people who bring guns to these town hall meetings are causing much concern and unneeded strain on citizens. This may be 2nd amendment, but it's rather close to clear and present danger.

[jamestolliver]

Well, I dislike Obama, but he is by no means Hitler. I consider President Obama a socialist because he wants government involvement in everything(GM, healthcare, etc.), and he wants to take from the rich and give to the poor(which is definitely a socialist philosophy) by taxing rich people at a higher rate than poorer people and by giving money to those who don't work for it(welfare). And i don't attack Obama for wanting everybody in the U.S. covered with good health insurance, I attack him for a government takeover of healthcare. That said, Frank way overreacted, and was in poor taste towards this woman(as much as he disagreed, he should have been civil about it).

That's not socialism. Socialism would be mean he end to all free markets. Everything would be state run. There would be no private property. The government would not have partial ownership of GM or support a public option; they would completely own every sector of the automotive and health care industries. This is not socialism. What we are seeing is a social democracy. George Bush supported the liberal democracy way of ruling. Both are just different ways of governing that place a different amount of emphasis on individual freedoms vs. equality.

Similarly, I don't think tax rates comparable or less than President Nixon's tax plan are socialist. I don't think Nixon was a socialist.

[Jibberwashed]

In a related note, I'm going to plug my webcomic, only because it is a little relevant to this discussion, and was prompted by this whole Barney Frank thing:

http://www.normaltivity.com/2009/08/20/adams-acting-gig/

Cradleman, I know we won't agree on much, but thanks for keeping your cool, and arguing the issue instead of attacking individuals on the board, no matter how tempting that may be. I hope everyone else treats you with the same respect.

[Cradleman]

In a related note, I'm going to plug my webcomic, only because it is a little relevant to this discussion, and was prompted by this whole Barney Frank thing:

http://www.normaltivity.com/2009/08/20/adams-acting-gig/

Cradleman, I know we won't agree on much, but thanks for keeping your cool, and arguing the issue instead of attacking individuals on the board, no matter how tempting that may be. I hope everyone else treats you with the same respect.

you're welcome. I just want my country to continue being as good as it has been. and obviously these issues are important to me and others, but attacking each other instead of discussing the issues doesn't help at all. oh, and for whoever said I was on my high horse earlier, i have no clue how i am on a high horse. so, um, sorry if i offended you.

[Cradleman]

That's not socialism. Socialism would be mean he end to all free markets. Everything would be state run. There would be no private property. The government would not have partial ownership of GM or support a public option; they would completely own every sector of the automotive and health care industries. This is not socialism. What we are seeing is a social democracy. George Bush supported the liberal democracy way of ruling. Both are just different ways of governing that place a different amount of emphasis on individual freedoms vs. equality.

Similarly, I don't think tax rates comparable or less than President Nixon's tax plan are socialist. I don't think Nixon was a socialist.

everything must be done in steps. the government can't completely run everything right away, the public would revolt and refuse to follow. But, if the government can slip it in over time, then eventually we will be socialist because they will have changed people's thinking gradually.

As for my thoughts on taxes, everyone should be taxed on a flat rate. Each person pays the same rate, but depending on how much you make determines how much you give. Rich people would still be giving a LOT more than poor people, but both would be giving the same amount of their income. That is the most fair way to tax. Unfortunately, the U.S. left that a long time ago.

[GelfXIII]

I really wish Kucinich wasn't so much of a dweeb, because I really agree with abotu 99% of everything the man says.

On the Health care bill:
http://kucinich.us/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2806&Itemid=76

[Jibberwashed]

I really wish Kucinich wasn't so much of a dweeb, because I really agree with abotu 99% of everything the man says.

On the Health care bill:
http://kucinich.us/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2806&Itemid=76

Oh man. I wanted Kucinich to be president, and the thing is, he would have actually had a shot against McCain. Oh well.

[jamestolliver]

everything must be done in steps. the government can't completely run everything right away, the public would revolt and refuse to follow. But, if the government can slip it in over time, then eventually we will be socialist because they will have changed people's thinking gradually.

As for my thoughts on taxes, everyone should be taxed on a flat rate. Each person pays the same rate, but depending on how much you make determines how much you give. Rich people would still be giving a LOT more than poor people, but both would be giving the same amount of their income. That is the most fair way to tax. Unfortunately, the U.S. left that a long time ago.

While on paper a flat tax rate may seem fair, when you consider things like sales tax and the cost of living, it is not.

Still, my point remains that this is not socialism. Tell me, do you think that France, a country with a hybrid health care system not too unlike the one proposed by the House, is a socialist country? It is not.

How do you proposed that the GM bailout makes the US a socialist country? The UAW owns a stake in the company as well as private creditors and Canada. Again, this is not socialism.

A special note about unions: While they were historically the areas where socialist ideas formed, in socialist (and some authoritarian and or/facist) systems no private, non State-sponsored unions were more often then not, not allowed to exists. If I am not mistaken, the UAW is a private non-State run union.

The closest sectors of American life to socialism would be out postal system and military but even that is tenuous claim.

[Cradleman]

While on paper a flat tax rate may seem fair, when you consider things like sales tax and the cost of living, it is not.

Still, my point remains that this is not socialism. Tell me, do you think that France, a country with a hybrid health care system not too unlike the one proposed by the House, is a socialist country? It is not.

How do you proposed that the GM bailout makes the US a socialist country? The UAW owns a stake in the company as well as private creditors and Canada. Again, this is not socialism.

A special note about unions: While they were historically the areas where socialist ideas formed, in socialist (and some authoritarian and or/facist) systems no private, non State-sponsored unions were more often then not, not allowed to exists. If I am not mistaken, the UAW is a private non-State run union.

The closest sectors of American life to socialism would be out postal system and military but even that is tenuous claim.

France is well on its way toward being socialist, imo. again, it won't be done all at once, but things like the government takeover of GM(I doubt very much that they will give it back, but would love to be proved wrong) and a government takeover of healthcare are moving the U.S. TOWARDS socialism. not there yet, no, but well on our way if we pass the healthcare bill that is currently out there. there are ways out to improve healthcare without the government taking it over.

[Humphrey_Lee]

Yeah I agree there. I wouldn't call even a bad health care plan Nazi-like. It's health care!


Come on! You know the Nazi's only came into power with their ideas on Health Care reform from similar leadership to that of our Black President and Gay/Jewish representatives... - *plagiarized from last night's Daily Show*

[Ryan Elliott]

Come on! You know the Nazi's only came into power with their ideas on Health Care reform from similar leadership to that of our Black President and Gay/Jewish representatives... - *plagiarized from last night's Daily Show*


Man I thought that was fucking AWESOMELY hilarious.

The complete and utter stupidity of all these fucking right wingnuts exposed and deflated in one sentence.

[Foolish Mortal]

Oh man. I wanted Kucinich to be president, and the thing is, he would have actually had a shot against McCain. Oh well.
I think Kucinich is a decent fellow with his heart in the right place.

But the fact of the matter is he's perceived as a bit of a flake. There is a percentage of Democratic voters that just wouldn't vote for him in a presidential race.

[Foolish Mortal]

Man I thought that was fucking AWESOMELY hilarious.

The complete and utter stupidity of all these fucking right wingnuts exposed and deflated in one sentence.
I propose an indefinite moratorium on the use of Hitler and Naziism in any political discussion.

Because 99.99% of the time anyone brings up Hitler or Nazis in a discussion, they don't know jack shit about Hitler or Naziism.

[Ryan Elliott]

I propose an indefinite moratorium on the use of Hitler and Naziism in any political discussion.

Because 99.99% of the time anyone brings up Hitler or Nazis in a discussion, they don't know jack shit about Hitler or Naziism.


I guess the .001% would be when they're actually talking about Hitler or Naziism? :scared:

[Jibberwashed]

I propose an indefinite moratorium on the use of Hitler and Naziism in any political discussion.

Because 99.99% of the time anyone brings up Hitler or Nazis in a discussion, they don't know jack shit about Hitler or Naziism.

Yeah. Unless you're talking about David Duke, you can't really compare most politicians to Hitler. I was never down with liberals comparing Bush to Hitler either. Bush was his own brand of shittiness that needs to be appreciated on it's own. The same should be said about people who are unhappy with Obama. How many things can we link to Nazis? They had democratically elected leaders, a large military budget, a court system, taxes. Of course, that's not exactly what the nazis were known for.

[mario]

w

As for socialism, it just doesn't work. never has. need examples? One good historic one is Jamestown. they tried the communal society, and what happened? those who had a good work ethic got all the food for everyone, and the rest sat around and ate the food the others provided. That is why it almost failed. When John Smith removed the communal system, the colony survived. Another example is Brook Farm and other such communal societies that the Transcendtalists tried to start, but failed because it made people lazy. Want a government? how about the Soviet Union? It collapsed because it's economy was terrible. When communist(which is a super-aggressive form of socialism, so it isn't quite the same) East Germany united with West Germany, which was prospering, the poverty in East Germany thanks to the communism nearly crippled it's economy. And although China is surviving now, it had to resort to some Capitalistic policies in order to survive(as Lenin put it, one step back to take two steps forward.) So, socialism/communism really isn't that great. Why? it's because people aren't perfect. In a perfect world, it would work. But is this a perfect world? heck no, which is why it fails.

You give the example of a cult as a example of why socialism doesn't work?
And then mention the Soviet Union and East Germany, which were communist states not socialist.
Man, that disqualifies you to ever have a discussion about socialism again

If you want to discuss the health of a socialist country, I suggest using the examples of say, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Belgium, Holland, Germany, France, Spain, Canada, the UK, Cuba and compare the state of public transportation, healthcare, welfare, emancipation,... with that of your beloved USA.

[Foolish Mortal]

Yeah. Unless you're talking about David Duke, you can't really compare most politicians to Hitler. I was never down with liberals comparing Bush to Hitler either. Bush was his own brand of shittiness that needs to be appreciated on it's own. The same should be said about people who are unhappy with Obama. How many things can we link to Nazis? They had democratically elected leaders, a large military budget, a court system, taxes. Of course, that's not exactly what the nazis were known for.
As big a fuck-up as the Bush presidency was, no one in their right mind can compare it to the regime of the Third Reich.