Jobless woman sues for $70K

[afroloq]

NEW YORK — A New York City woman who says she can't find a job is suing the college where she earned a bachelor's degree.

Trina Thompson filed a lawsuit last week against Monroe College in the Bronx Supreme Court. The 27-year-old is seeking the $70,000 she spent on tuition.

Thompson says she's been unable to find gainful employment since she received her information technology degree in April.


link (http://www.columbiamissourian.com/stories/2009/08/02/jobless-new-york-woman-sues-college-70k-tuition/)

[Treacle]

No.

[Roger]

wonder if she'll win....

[Shepherd]

That's ridiculous. A college degree is not an automatic "get a job" card.

R

[thatguyfromsyracuse]

:lol: What a dope.

[bradical]

that's awesome.

[Marc Lombardi]

Oh. Fuck. Her.

[Ray G.]

Wow. :rofl:

[Marc Lombardi]

Headline from the future:

Woman Sues Lawyer For Losing Jobless Tuition Case Against College

[leviathan]

That's brilliant!!

[Kedd]

I think she's on to something.

[The Dean]

My college did make a lot of claims about all of the opportunities and massive amounts of dough that I'd be raking in once I graduated...

[Kedd]

My college did make a lot of claims about all of the opportunities and massive amounts of dough that I'd be raking in once I graduated...

We should all join a class action suit against all colleges. And high schools for that matter. Telling us we needed college, pshaw!

[HOOKS]

I am going to sue my fifth grade teacher for telling me I have the potential to be the first black president.

[dasNdanger]

Well...actually...

I think she is onto something here. Only the suit is a bit much. But there's this belief (and it's fairly shoved down our throats early on) that the only way to succeed in life is to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a college education. And yet some of the most successful people in the world - whether they be actors or business men or self-made millionaires - are high school drop-outs, and never sat through a day of college in their lives. My sister's father-in-law was such a man - worked his ass of from boyhood on, and died a content and happy rich old man.

There is this misconception that college gets you everything. It doesn't. Not even hard work is a guarantee for success. But the brain-washing should stop, and young people should be exposed to other career options, whether it be in the trades, or in services or in other fields that do not require a college degree. Instead they are made to think that the only way to get a good job is to go to college, only to find that - upon leaving - the field is flooded with applicants, and they end up working at McDonald's unable to pay off that huge college loan. Money spent for nothing - I've seen it happen way too many times.


das

[afroloq]

Well...actually...

I think she is onto something here. Only the suit is a bit much. But there's this belief (and it's fairly shoved down our throats early on) that the only way to succeed in life is to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a college education. And yet some of the most successful people in the world - whether they be actors or business men or self-made millionaires - are high school drop-outs, and never sat through a day of college in their lives. My sister's father-in-law was such a man - worked his ass of from boyhood on, and died a content and happy rich old man.

There is this misconception that college gets you everything. It doesn't. Not even hard work is a guarantee for success. But the brain-washing should stop, and young people should be exposed to other career options, whether it be in the trades, or in services or in other fields that do not require a college degree. Instead they are made to think that the only way to get a good job is to go to college, only to find that - upon leaving - the field is flooded with applicants, and they end up working at McDonald's unable to pay off that huge college loan. Money spent for nothing - I've seen it happen way too many times.


das


I agree and disagree on some of those points, being that I think it really depends on how you market yourself and how you use the opportunities that are presented while in college.

For example, while still in the classroom is that student looking into taking internships and getting real world experiences, are they going to job fairs and seminars to make themselves more marketable and most importantly, are they taking a major that will make them marketable in the first place?

if not...then it really is a waste of money.

My question for this young lady is, especially being that she is in the IT field, what is her specialty and what are her qualifications outside of a degree does she really have?

Is she asking for too much money?

Has she even turned down jobs?

Another misconception too is that some newly degreed students think that they are supposed to just waltz right in to a midlevel job and get paid when really that is not the case.

[Eison]

Given our legal system, I'm actually surprised this is the first time I've heard of a lawsuit like this.

[LordKinbote]

Well...actually...

I think she is onto something here. Only the suit is a bit much. But there's this belief (and it's fairly shoved down our throats early on) that the only way to succeed in life is to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a college education. And yet some of the most successful people in the world - whether they be actors or business men or self-made millionaires - are high school drop-outs, and never sat through a day of college in their lives. My sister's father-in-law was such a man - worked his ass of from boyhood on, and died a content and happy rich old man.

There is this misconception that college gets you everything. It doesn't. Not even hard work is a guarantee for success. But the brain-washing should stop, and young people should be exposed to other career options, whether it be in the trades, or in services or in other fields that do not require a college degree. Instead they are made to think that the only way to get a good job is to go to college, only to find that - upon leaving - the field is flooded with applicants, and they end up working at McDonald's unable to pay off that huge college loan. Money spent for nothing - I've seen it happen way too many times.


das

That's fine, but your whole point is moot. A diploma is not a legal promise that you will get a job. She wasn't paying for a future job, she was paying for the education (and books and room and board and whatever else went into the tuition). She obviously thinks her education makes her entitled to a job, and that may be working to her disadvantage in interviews.

[batmanbooyah]

she shoudl then hold a sign that says "i went to a trade school."

[silverboy]

I've wanted to do this so many times.

[Treacle]

I think she is onto something here. Only the suit is a bit much. But there's this belief (and it's fairly shoved down our throats early on) that the only way to succeed in life is to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a college education. And yet some of the most successful people in the world - whether they be actors or business men or self-made millionaires - are high school drop-outs, and never sat through a day of college in their lives. My sister's father-in-law was such a man - worked his ass of from boyhood on, and died a content and happy rich old man.

das

The problem here is that you're talking about exceptions not averages.

Over the life course, college graduates make an average of one million dollars more than high school graduates. When I was in college, my private school degree cost about $100,000 (if you paid out of pocket). Most graduates are guaranteed to recoup those costs over their lifetime. If you go on to graduate or professional school, you stand to make even more.

Especially when the economy is shit like it is now, having a college degree is a really good way to weed out people you don't want to hire...regardless of how much experience they may have. It's not so much about the education as about the notion that you were able to stick to one course for a significant length of time, not to mention gather a lot of general knowledge on the way (i.e. learning how to learn).

[Kedd]

She's been out of school all of 3 months.

[Treacle]

I honestly wonder how she thinks this lawsuit is going to help her find a job.

No employer is going to want to touch her now.

[batmanbooyah]

The problem here is that you're talking about exceptions not averages.

Over the life course, college graduates make an average of one million dollars more than high school graduates. When I was in college, my private school degree cost about $100,000 (if you paid out of pocket). Most graduates are guaranteed to recoup those costs over their lifetime. If you go on to graduate or professional school, you stand to make even more.

Especially when the economy is shit like it is now, having a college degree is a really good way to weed out people you don't want to hire...regardless of how much experience they may have. It's not so much about the education as about the notion that you were able to stick to one course for a significant length of time, not to mention gather a lot of general knowledge on the way (i.e. learning how to learn).


there's been studies that have pointed either way. due in part to assumptions on either side. i personally think modern education is a crock of shit. I know some college graduates who are working at starbucks. I know some college graduates who are running software companies. I know some high school graduates living at home, and some who are millionaires.

college doesn't guarantee you a better life or greater financial security. i loved my education and would gladly do it again, but i'm not sure if i ever have kids if i'd push college on them. depends on how i think they'll shape up I suppose.

[Ben]

Well...actually...

I think she is onto something here. Only the suit is a bit much. But there's this belief (and it's fairly shoved down our throats early on) that the only way to succeed in life is to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a college education. And yet some of the most successful people in the world - whether they be actors or business men or self-made millionaires - are high school drop-outs, and never sat through a day of college in their lives. My sister's father-in-law was such a man - worked his ass of from boyhood on, and died a content and happy rich old man.

There is this misconception that college gets you everything. It doesn't. Not even hard work is a guarantee for success. But the brain-washing should stop, and young people should be exposed to other career options, whether it be in the trades, or in services or in other fields that do not require a college degree. Instead they are made to think that the only way to get a good job is to go to college, only to find that - upon leaving - the field is flooded with applicants, and they end up working at McDonald's unable to pay off that huge college loan. Money spent for nothing - I've seen it happen way too many times.


dasMost of the people that don't go to college don't go on to become actors, businessmen, or self-made millionaires. Anyone that went to college knows that.

[Kedd]

there's been studies that have pointed either way. due in part to assumptions on either side. i personally think modern education is a crock of shit. I know some college graduates who are working at starbucks. I know some college graduates who are running software companies. I know some high school graduates living at home, and some who are millionaires.

college doesn't guarantee you a better life or greater financial security. i loved my education and would gladly do it again, but i'm not sure if i ever have kids if i'd push college on them. depends on how i think they'll shape up I suppose.

College or professional school doesn't promise anything, but it does give one a better shot at making more money.

[Treacle]

there's been studies that have pointed either way. due in part to assumptions on either side. i personally think modern education is a crock of shit. I know some college graduates who are working at starbucks. I know some college graduates who are running software companies. I know some high school graduates living at home, and some who are millionaires.

college doesn't guarantee you a better life or greater financial security. i loved my education and would gladly do it again, but i'm not sure if i ever have kids if i'd push college on them. depends on how i think they'll shape up I suppose.

That is way too much vague for me to take seriously.

Every study I've ever read (and I've read lots) shows a clearly positive relationship between college education and income.

Are there people who went to college and live below the poverty line? Yes. Are there people who didn't go to college and are billionaires? Yes.

Are those people the norm (norm as in a standard normal distribution)? No.

College doesn't guarantee anything. What it does is make a certain set of life outcomes much more likely to happen.

[afroloq]

That is way too much vague for me to take seriously.

Every study I've ever read (and I've read lots) shows a clearly positive relationship between college education and income.

Are there people who went to college and live below the poverty line? Yes. Are there people who didn't go to college and are billionaires? Yes.

Are those people the norm (norm as in a standard normal distribution)? No.

College doesn't guarantee anything. What it does is make a certain set of life outcomes much more likely to happen.


The Octomom went to college and look where she is now...

[Treacle]

The Octomom went to college and look where she is now...

The Octomom would also be in the tails of a normal distribution on pretty much every variable.

You'll notice there are certain words I keep using, like, say, "average." It's a really important word. It's actually necessary for understanding everything else I'm saying.

[Ben]

That is way too much vague for me to take seriously.

Every study I've ever read (and I've read lots) shows a clearly positive relationship between college education and income.

Are there people who went to college and live below the poverty line? Yes. Are there people who didn't go to college and are billionaires? Yes.

Are those people the norm (norm as in a standard normal distribution)? No.

College doesn't guarantee anything. What it does is make a certain set of life outcomes much more likely to happen.Thank you for putting this so well. I'm so tired of people trying to refute data on overall trends with "Well, I know a guy who..." bullshit.

[GelfXIII]

wonder if she'll win....

Not if her lawyer went to the same 'safety school' she went to, that's for sure! :lol:

[LordKinbote]

The Octomom would also be in the tails of a normal distribution on pretty much every variable.

You'll notice there are certain words I keep using, like, say, "average." It's a really important word. It's actually necessary for understanding everything else I'm saying.

But...but...I knew a guy! Who went to college! And now he's poor! What do you have to say to THAT?

[afroloq]

The Octomom would also be in the tails of a normal distribution on pretty much every variable.

You'll notice there are certain words I keep using, like, say, "average." It's a really important word. It's actually necessary for understanding everything else I'm saying.

I understood...which is why I stated what i said...if anything she is beyond average...which leads to another line of conversation.

People think that just because you have a degree means you are smart or have some common sense and in her case and in the woman suing case, indicates anything but that.

a college degree ≠ intelligence and common sense

[Ben]

I understood...which is why I stated what i said...if anything she is beyond average...which leads to another line of conversation.

People think that just because you have a degree means you are smart or have some common sense and in her case and in the woman suing case, indicates anything but that.

a college degree ≠ intelligence and common senseA college degree for the most part does indicate a higher level of intelligence. Doesn't mean there aren't dumb people with degrees. Doesn't mean there aren't smart people without them.

But you're saying "it doesn't AUTOMATICALLY mean..." Well, nothing automatically means anything 100% of the time, so it's pointless to even mention that.

[batmanbooyah]

That is way too much vague for me to take seriously.

Every study I've ever read (and I've read lots) shows a clearly positive relationship between college education and income.

Are there people who went to college and live below the poverty line? Yes. Are there people who didn't go to college and are billionaires? Yes.

Are those people the norm (norm as in a standard normal distribution)? No.

College doesn't guarantee anything. What it does is make a certain set of life outcomes much more likely to happen.


right, college doesn't guarantee anything. my post was about how modern higher education is a crock of shit. it's a giant scheme created to bilk the most money out of you on the pretense of a better financial life later down the line. you can say "college is about the experience" and i personally will agree with you.

but from the moment you step foot into a classroom you're bombarded by the financial dangers of not having a higher education. rarely do you hear a teacher, counselor, or professor say "a college education is beneficial to us all because we want a highly educated population. an educated populace is a good thing." more often than not it's "a college education will help you get a good job. you're going to be able to acquire a good job. you'll have one up on the person next to you when you go into that interview."

ben: annecdotal evidence is as useful as scientific evidence when it comes to annoying you :)

[LordKinbote]

more often than not it's "a college education will help you get a good job. you're going to be able to acquire a good job. you'll have one up on the person next to you when you go into that interview.

But this is usually true. Certainly a college diploma opens doors that people with high school educations can't walk through. I'm really not sure what your point is.

[batmanbooyah]

But this is usually true. Certainly a college diploma opens doors that people with high school educations can't walk through. I'm really not sure what your point is.

my point is modern higher education is bs. it's based almost entirely about a rate of return on your monetary investment, rather than a social investment for your population. why higher education is laregly privatized and costs come out of the students pockets for public universities in this country, i'll never know.

[afroloq]

But you're saying "it doesn't AUTOMATICALLY mean..." Well, nothing automatically means anything 100% of the time, so it's pointless to even mention that.


Right!

So aiming that at the lady in the article...just because she has a degree doesn't automatically mean she will get a job!

[usagi20]

There was a time when college was just a place for rich people's kids to learn how to be adults. But then the owners of companies used it as an excuse to keep down the riff-raff. If a common worker asked for a promotion that he was otherwise qualified for, the boss would say, "Sorry, but this job requires a college degree." So the common people (ie. riff-raff) petitioned and lobbied the government to provide financial aid for college education. Suddenly there were all these recent grads who now wanted jobs that they weren't really qualified to do, but they had the degrees that the bosses said were necessary for the jobs. So the bosses still give those jobs to their kids or their friends' kids, who went to college without any financial aid, and the rest of us wonder what happened. They said we needed a college degree to get the job, we got the degree, but now they won't give us the job. What's going on?

[SethInAz]

College degrees are the new high school diploma. Everyone has one now. You've gotta have at least a masters and a couple doctorates to get ahead now.

[Doc Randy]

Higher education isn't just a means to an end, but and end in and of itself.

[19bernardo87]

My college education has, thus far, been the biggest waste of money of my entire life. I learned absolutely nothing which I could have no learned faster and better by myself. In fact, all my relevant knowledge has been acquired through personal pursuits. I fear for what happens next...

[LordKinbote]

There was a time when college was just a place for rich people's kids to learn how to be adults. But then the owners of companies used it as an excuse to keep down the riff-raff. If a common worker asked for a promotion that he was otherwise qualified for, the boss would say, "Sorry, but this job requires a college degree." So the common people (ie. riff-raff) petitioned and lobbied the government to provide financial aid for college education. Suddenly there were all these recent grads who now wanted jobs that they weren't really qualified to do, but they had the degrees that the bosses said were necessary for the jobs. So the bosses still give those jobs to their kids or their friends' kids, who went to college without any financial aid, and the rest of us wonder what happened.

Your History of Colleges seems extremely dubious.


They said we needed a college degree to get the job, we got the degree, but now they won't give us the job. What's going on?

And your logic is even more dubious. "X is a requirement for Y" does not mean "If X, then Y". I could say being picked for a football team requires practice, which is true, but that doesn't mean everyone who practices is entitled to a spot on the team.

[LordKinbote]

College degrees are the new high school diploma. Everyone has one now. You've gotta have at least a masters and a couple doctorates to get ahead now.

This statement is very much not true. People with college diplomas are still the minority in this country.

[batmanbooyah]

My college education has, thus far, been the biggest waste of money of my entire life. I learned absolutely nothing which I could have no learned faster and better by myself. In fact, all my relevant knowledge has been acquired through personal pursuits. I fear for what happens next...

we can't all major in pornographic studies, you know.

[HOOKS]

This statement is very much not true. People with college diplomas are still the minority in this country.

Unfortunately.

[Ben]

my point is modern higher education is bs. it's based almost entirely about a rate of return on your monetary investment, rather than a social investment for your population. why higher education is laregly privatized and costs come out of the students pockets for public universities in this country, i'll never know.Public universities are subsidized by the government. That's why in-state tuition is so much less.

[Ben]

My college education has, thus far, been the biggest waste of money of my entire life. I learned absolutely nothing which I could have no learned faster and better by myself. In fact, all my relevant knowledge has been acquired through personal pursuits. I fear for what happens next...If you went to a liberal arts school, the goal isn't really to fill you with knowledge anyway. It's to teach you skills. Knowledge anyone could get these days by reading some books.

[19bernardo87]

If you went to a liberal arts school, the goal isn't really to fill you with knowledge anyway. It's to teach you skills. Knowledge anyone could get these days by reading some books.

I'm a mathematics/computer science major at Texas A&M (mostly know for engineering and agriculture, I suppose).

And I hope they are not charging me an ever-increasing tuition merely to present me with trivial skills.

[Ben]

right, college doesn't guarantee anything. my post was about how modern higher education is a crock of shit. it's a giant scheme created to bilk the most money out of you on the pretense of a better financial life later down the line. you can say "college is about the experience" and i personally will agree with you.

but from the moment you step foot into a classroom you're bombarded by the financial dangers of not having a higher education. rarely do you hear a teacher, counselor, or professor say "a college education is beneficial to us all because we want a highly educated population. an educated populace is a good thing." more often than not it's "a college education will help you get a good job. you're going to be able to acquire a good job. you'll have one up on the person next to you when you go into that interview."The problem with your example quotes is that the former is a group/population benefit of college eduation, while the latter is an individual benefit. It doesn't really make sense to tell an individual to go to college, so that the entire country can benefit by the example they set. We don't live in the fucking Soviet Union where benefits to the state are considered equal to benefits to the individual! You tell people how they'd personally benefit! Sure, you could say "Go to college and you'll be smarter!" but then the response is "But it costs so much money! Surely there must be some other financial benefit to justify the expense!"


ben: annecdotal evidence is as useful as scientific evidence when it comes to annoying you :)Heh

[Doc Randy]

I'm a mathematics/computer science major at Texas A&M (mostly know for engineering and agriculture, I suppose).

And I hope they are not charging me an ever-increasing tuition merely to present me with trivial skills.


Well that's your problem. You're an Aggie!

Should have gone to Austin.

Hook 'em!

[Ben]

I'm a mathematics/computer science major at Texas A&M (mostly know for engineering and agriculture, I suppose).

And I hope they are not charging me an ever-increasing tuition merely to present me with trivial skills.The skills you learn at a liberal arts school are not trivial.

Doesn't sound like you're in that kind of program, though. Maybe Texas A&M just isn't that great for the major you chose.

[half guard]

I honestly wonder how she thinks this lawsuit is going to help her find a job.

No employer is going to want to touch her now.

Good point. This whole situation should raise two immediate red flags:

1) She's not very smart (especially when it comes to common sense).

2) She's a little too happy to sue someone regardless of how ludicrous the suit may be.

Not exactly the kind of person, I'd be looking to hire.

[Treacle]

my point is modern higher education is bs. it's based almost entirely about a rate of return on your monetary investment, rather than a social investment for your population. why higher education is laregly privatized and costs come out of the students pockets for public universities in this country, i'll never know.

In Georgia, you can attend a public, undergraduate university for free if you have a certain GPA. One of the benefits of the GA Lottery.

[19bernardo87]

The skills you learn at a liberal arts school are not trivial.

Doesn't sound like you're in that kind of program, though. Maybe Texas A&M just isn't that great for the major you chose.

I don't think I'm alone at all. In fact, I've been in many classes with engineering and physicist, and have found that I often know more about their subject than they do.

I suspect in the future specialized schools will be the norm. The current educational system simply does not produce ready graduates.

[Doc Randy]

The simple fact is anybody can put themselves through college if they want to.
Sure, it costs money, but there is no reason anybody can legitimately say they can't gather the money to go. Go to a community college or public university. Work concurrently. Take out some loans. Find a good reimbursement program after you graduate. Join ROTC. Teach for America. Anybody can pay for college if they want to.

[Tom G.]

Not to comment on the merit of the lawsuit, but some of those for profit technical schools advertise "guaranteed job placement". It's a statement that is negated in the fine print, they guarantee job placement services but not an actual job. It's deceptive and a lot of the people these diploma mills target don't realize it.

[half guard]

In Georgia, you can attend a public, undergraduate university for free if you have a certain GPA. One of the benefits of the GA Lottery.

Louisiana has a similar program called "TOPS". Students have to take specific classes in High School and graduate with a certain GPA.

[Tom G.]

Louisiana has a similar program called "TOPS". Students have to take specific classes in High School and graduate with a certain GPA.

Florida has a program as well called "bright futures". Any Florida high school student can get four years tuition to a state university paid for with a 3.5 GPA. However, with the budget crisis this is probably going to get scaled back in the not so bright future.

[batmanbooyah]

In Georgia, you can attend a public, undergraduate university for free if you have a certain GPA. One of the benefits of the GA Lottery.

in soviet union, university GPA YOU!

there's little loop holes everywhere. there's the cal grant here that gives you about 4k now a days? not sure, but if you have a good gpa and your parent's are sorta poor, you can get that and it'll just about cover tuition at most UC schools.

[Humphrey_Lee]

This lawsuit is completely insipid, but at the same time I'm kind of glad there's someone out there doing something like this to point out that for a country that supposedly puts so much emphasis on education we do do a relatively shitty job for rewarding those that have one. Even if your Bachelor's does help you find a job, I've noticed, chances are it's just some soul crushing position that's barely better than minimum wage. Between just myself and my friends and I, I could account for probably a half dozen Bachelor's Degrees and out of all of us I'm probably the second most "well off" and all I've been able to accomplish with it is basically a shift supervisors job while the best of us is at a six digit job that he could have gotten without his degree because his daddy landed him it. Hell, I met a guy two weekends back that has a Master's Degree and is driving a forklift for $10 an hour. We definitely put more an emphasis on who you know here than what you know, at the least. Still, this lawsuit is pretty moronic.

[Gunter]

The simple fact is anybody can put themselves through college if they want to.
Sure, it costs money, but there is no reason anybody can legitimately say they can't gather the money to go. Go to a community college or public university. Work concurrently. Take out some loans. Find a good reimbursement program after you graduate. Join ROTC. Teach for America. Anybody can pay for college if they want to.

Exactly.

It might take some sacrifice. But in the end it's definitely worth it.

[afroloq]

Knowledge anyone could get these days by reading some books. Hands on experience is a great teacher also.

[Dreaded Anomaly]

Louisiana has a similar program called "TOPS". Students have to take specific classes in High School and graduate with a certain GPA.

I don't know if Maine has a name for its program, but I do know that I could have gone to the University of Maine completely for free. I didn't, because their physics program sucks balls. (My friend who does go there had, for his Physics 1 professor, a man who taught our high school physics teacher, and our high school physics teacher taught my parents. The professor used the same set of slides for both my friend and my high school teacher.)

This brings up a slightly-relevant point. Ben and Treacle have presented the relevant statistical arguments, but just to balance out the anecdotes of "homeless college students standing on the street, with 'will critique literature for food' written on the backs of their diplomas", let me ask this: how do any of you suggest that I might become a physicist without going to college? :)

[19bernardo87]

This brings up a slightly-relevant point. Ben and Treacle have presented the relevant statistical arguments, but just to balance out the anecdotes of "homeless college students standing on the street, with 'will critique literature for food' written on the backs of their diplomas", let me ask this: how do any of you suggest that I might become a physicist without going to college? :)

College is a necessary evil, but what I'm arguing is that it's far from sufficient. In fact, it's quite incomplete.

I took a quantum mechanics course with other chemistry and physics students, and was surprised to know how much more than I knew about the subject than they did purely from reading a couple of books and watching NGC or the Science Channel.

The thing is, college have not adapt their curricula sufficiently enough to match our expanding knowledge. We know so much about each subject that an electrical engineer, for instance, could easily only take electrical engineering courses for 4 years of college and still not know all of its subject.

Physics is another, in particular, which is constantly expanding (well, it has been a bit stagnant these past few years, but LHC is likely to change that).

[Doc Randy]

College is a necessary evil, but what I'm arguing is that it's far from sufficient. In fact, it's quite incomplete.

I took a quantum mechanics course with other chemistry and physics students, and was surprised to know how much more than I knew about the subject than they did purely from reading a couple of books and watching NGC or the Science Channel.

The thing is, college have not adapt their curricula sufficiently enough to match our expanding knowledge. We know so much about each subject that an electrical engineer, for instance, could easily only take electrical engineering courses for 4 years of college and still not know all of its subject.

Physics is another, in particular, which is constantly expanding (well, it has been a bit stagnant these past few years, but LHC is likely to change that).

How much of your complaints do you think are specific to your school?
Not all colleges are created equally. There were plenty of areas I thought my school was deficient compared to some of the experiences my friends had at other schools. There were some areas where my school excelled. Every school is different.

[Dreaded Anomaly]

College is a necessary evil, but what I'm arguing is that it's far from sufficient. In fact, it's quite incomplete.

I took a quantum mechanics course with other chemistry and physics students, and was surprised to know how much more than I knew about the subject than they did purely from reading a couple of books and watching NGC or the Science Channel.

The thing is, college have not adapt their curricula sufficiently enough to match our expanding knowledge. We know so much about each subject that an electrical engineer, for instance, could easily only take electrical engineering courses for 4 years of college and still not know all of its subject.

Physics is another, in particular, which is constantly expanding (well, it has been a bit stagnant these past few years, but LHC is likely to change that).

As you mentioned the LHC, I will add that I'm currently doing an internship at CERN, through my school's physics department. :D (The department of undergraduate education, which is responsible for the internship stipend, isn't even paying me enough for food and rent, but that's why I make a distinction between RPI's administration, whom I generally detest, and RPI's physics department, who are generally awesome.)

There is definitely a problem with outdated coursework (those slides I mentioned above must be pushing 40 years old), but I think there's another problem in American higher education that's recently been made more apparent to me. One of my fellow CERN summer students goes to Imperial College in London. We both just finished our second year of school, but she's a year ahead of me in physics courses. This is because Imperial doesn't have distribution requirements the way most American universities do. Physics majors just take physics courses and related ones (e.g. math). There's a major focus on "well-roundedness" in American schools (especially college admissions these days, but that's another rant), and I think it's at the point where this idea is being pushed to the detriment of preparedness in one's chosen field.

[Jason California]

In Georgia, you can attend a public, undergraduate university for free if you have a certain GPA. One of the benefits of the GA Lottery.


That is a great way for poor people in the state to pool their funds together and help the next generation move on up.

[19bernardo87]

How much of your complaints do you think are specific to your school?
Not all colleges are created equally. There were plenty of areas I thought my school was deficient compared to some of the experiences my friends had at other schools. There were some areas where my school excelled. Every school is different.

Obviously there is no real way for me to answer that with certainty. It suffices to say that I've heard similar complains from employees, professors, and college students alike. But what I can only honestly say with 100% conviction is that I'm underwhelmed by the public educational system in Texas (UT, U of H, A&M, etc). It's just inadequate.


This is because Imperial doesn't have distribution requirements the way most American universities do. Physics majors just take physics courses and related ones (e.g. math). There's a major focus on "well-roundedness" in American schools (especially college admissions these days, but that's another rant), and I think it's at the point where this idea is being pushed to the detriment of preparedness in one's chosen field.

I cannot agree enough. You can't be a "renaissance man" anymore, unless you expect your knowledge in the end to be comparable to that of a person in the Renaissance period.

[batmanbooyah]

I don't know if Maine has a name for its program, but I do know that I could have gone to the University of Maine completely for free. I didn't, because their physics program sucks balls. (My friend who does go there had, for his Physics 1 professor, a man who taught our high school physics teacher, and our high school physics teacher taught my parents. The professor used the same set of slides for both my friend and my high school teacher.)

This brings up a slightly-relevant point. Ben and Treacle have presented the relevant statistical arguments, but just to balance out the anecdotes of "homeless college students standing on the street, with 'will critique literature for food' written on the backs of their diplomas", let me ask this: how do any of you suggest that I might become a physicist without going to college? :)


I dunno, but this clown didn't even FINISH college!!!! what-a-failure!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/N.Tesla.JPG

[Treacle]

I dunno, but this clown didn't even FINISH college!!!! what-a-failure!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/N.Tesla.JPG

Because bringing up a man who was born 150 years ago is entirely relevant to this discussion. :mistrust:

[batmanbooyah]

Because bringing up a man who was born 150 years ago is entirely relevant to this discussion. :mistrust:

I dunno, but this clown didn't even FINISH college!!!! what-a-failure!


http://www.businesspundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/bill-gates-1983.jpg

[19bernardo87]

Because bringing up a man who was born 150 years ago is entirely relevant to this discussion. :mistrust:

Well, he could have brought up Bill Gates and some others as well. :cool:

The thing is, a diploma is much like a currency. In my view, it has no intrinsic value, and it just depends how much faith employers are willing to put on it. Unfortunately, I view our educational system to be in a "recession" and our diplomas are losing their values. Meanwhile, the "foreign currency" doesn't look so bad...

[batmanbooyah]

Well, he could have brought up Bill Gates and some others as well. :cool:

The thing is, a diploma is much like a currency. In my view, it has no intrinsic value, and it just depends how much faith employers are willing to put on it. Unfortunately, I view our educational system to be in a "recession" and our diplomas are losing their values. Meanwhile, the "foreign currency" doesn't look so bad...

man if i could turn in my degree for a bic mac and fries i would.

[Doc Randy]

I dunno, but this clown didn't even FINISH college!!!! what-a-failure!


http://www.businesspundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/bill-gates-1983.jpg

He did go to college and spent much of his youth at a University practicing programming. Also, I guarantee you that the vast majority of his employees who have helped generate his wealth did indeed go to college.

Side note... everyone should read Malcom Gladwell's Outliers. The chapter on Gates is pretty illuminating.

[batmanbooyah]

He did go to college and spent much of his youth at a University practicing programming. Also, I guarantee you that the vast majority of his employees who have helped generate his wealth did indeed go to college.

I wonder if him or steve jobs have ever fired or just not hired something due to the employee not having a college degree?

[Treacle]

Well, he could have brought up Bill Gates and some others as well. :cool:

The thing is, a diploma is much like a currency. In my view, it has no intrinsic value, and it just depends how much faith employers are willing to put on it. Unfortunately, I view our educational system to be in a "recession" and our diplomas are losing their values. Meanwhile, the "foreign currency" doesn't look so bad...

You're right. A diploma, much like paper money, has no intrinsic value. It's value is in what it represents.

To many employers a diploma represents the ability to stick with a course of action for four years and to suffer through it's accompanying hardships (college students are notoriously poor), a basic familiarity with a broad range of subject matter, a basic understanding of how to conduct research, and a slightly more indepth understanding of a specific subject.

You can say the same thing about Ph.Ds. The paper itself has no value. What it represents is the ability to pursue a single goal for an extended period of time, in-depth and specific knowledge of a single subject, and the ability to perform high quality (often world-class) research.

Most of the best educational institutions in the world, in terms of prestige, endowment, research, or faculty quality are still in America. To declare that American "currency" in the form of higher education is losing its value seems to me to suggest that you're unfamiliar with the system, or at least biased because you chose an inadequate institution.

[19bernardo87]

He did go to college and spent much of his youth at a University practicing programming. Also, I guarantee you that the vast majority of his employees who have helped generate his wealth did indeed go to college.

Side note... everyone should read Malcom Gladwell's Outliers. The chapter on Gates is pretty illuminating.

I go to college and spend a lot of my time programming, almost none of which has anything to do with what I'm supposed to be working on for my college assignments. I suspect the same was true for him, which is why he found no need to finish it.

Although, I'm sure I'd have a considerable better opinions of colleges in general if I went to Harvard. (or maybe I'd just have far less free time :P)

[Treacle]

I go to college and spend a lot of my time programming, almost none of which has anything to do with what I'm supposed to be working on for my college assignments. I suspect the same was true for him, which is why he found no need to finish it.

Although, I'm sure I'd have a considerable better opinions of colleges in general if I went to Harvard. (or maybe I'd just have far less free time :P)

Then stop selling yourself short and go to a school that challenges you.

Seriously, if it's as bad as all that, stop whining, suck it up, and reapply elsewhere.

[19bernardo87]

The best educational institutions in the world, in terms of prestige, endowment, research, or faculty quality are still in America. To declare that American "currency" in the form of higher education is losing its value seems to me to suggest that you're unfamiliar with the system.

I should have specified I was talking specifically about undergraduate degrees. The same holds true for GPAs. Most graduate schools will look for empirical evidence (such as research, interships, which are a whole new political ball game...) rather than to a piece of paper and a number.

I'm sorry if I sound a bit bitter about the subject, but I'm completely out of money paying for my college, and I'm also putting a lot of financial stress on my dad, who has just recently lost his job. The fact that, in the end, despite having a perfect GPA and being of fairly above intelligence, I may land a mediocre job if any at all, disappoints me (and maybe even my family).

Also, the uncertainty of senior year coupled with lack of money is a bitch.

[19bernardo87]

Then stop selling yourself short and go to a school that challenges you.

Seriously, if it's as bad as all that, stop whining, suck it up, and reapply elsewhere.

I don't have money or time. If I could go in the past, in fact, I think I'd just do my first 2 years in community college.

[batmanbooyah]

I should have specified I was talking specifically about undergraduate degrees. The same holds true for GPAs. Most graduate schools will look for empirical evidence (such as research, interships, which are a whole new political ball game...) rather than to a piece of paper and a number.

I'm sorry if I sound a bit bitter about the subject, but I'm completely out of money paying for my college, and I'm also putting a lot of financial stress on my dad, who has just recently lost his job. The fact that, in the end, despite having a perfect GPA and being of fairly above intelligence, I may land a mediocre job if any at all, disappoints me (and maybe even my family).

Also, the uncertainty of senior year coupled with lack of money is a bitch.


higher education has turned into a large business instead of what it preaches to be. it's ok to be stressed out but if you're that dedicated to your studies i'm sure you can apply that level of dedication and hard work to the job hunt and land something that motivates and challenges you!

[19bernardo87]

Also, I want to specify that most of my criticism is targeted towards science education. I don't think I have a clue what liberal arts education is like... my brother did journalism, but I never bothered to ask him. :P

[Treacle]

I don't have money or time. If I could go in the past, in fact, I think I'd just do my first 2 years in community college.

This perplexes me.

If you're as smart as you say you are, schools should be throwing money your way.

If you're actually interested in doing coursework that challenges you (otherwise known as learning) then the time invested in filling out an application would be repaid in a more suitable learning environment.

Instead, it sounds like you chose poorly and have therefore made the assumption that all colleges are as bad as yours. That's really not the case.

[19bernardo87]

This perplexes me.

If you're as smart as you say you are, schools should be throwing money your way.

If you're actually interested in doing coursework that challenges you (otherwise known as learning) then the time invested in filling out an application would be repaid in a more suitable learning environment.

Instead, it sounds like you chose poorly and have therefore made the assumption that all colleges are as bad as yours. That's really not the case.

I was far less interested in school in high school, and my English was far worse. I graduated #53/604, and really didn't care about my future until freshmen year. I also had no clue how American educational system worked, and didn't bother to learn about it at the time. I was completely irresponsible about my education, and I'm too blame.

Getting reasonable scholarships once in a public university as large as A&M has proved to be exceedingly difficult (even my roomate, #1 in our class, has had a difficult time).

Also, I'm a year from graduating. Going through a credit transfer process which can make me stay in college longer doesn't really interest.

Out of curiosity, what was your college and your major?

[Treacle]

I was far less interested in school in high school, and my English was far worse. I graduated #53/604, and really didn't care about my future until freshmen year. I also had no clue how American educational system worked, and didn't bother to learn about it at the time. I was completely irresponsible about my education, and I'm too blame.

Getting reasonable scholarships once in a public university as large as A&M has proved to be exceedingly difficult (even my roomate, #1 in our class, has had a difficult time).

Also, I'm a year from graduating. Going through a credit transfer process which can make me stay in college longer doesn't really interest.

Out of curiosity, what was your college and your major?

Okay. That makes more sense now.

I went to an all women's college in Atlanta for undergrad and majored in Sociology.

University of Georgia for grad. Also Sociology.

[MAK15]

Headline from the future:

Woman Sues Lawyer For Losing Jobless Tuition Case Against College

beat me to it

[Christopher Brian]

This has been a really interesting thread.

As someone who has hired and fired for the last 8 years (2 in the private sector, 6 in state government) I find some of the ideas in here nice if not practical in hiring.

I'm actually going to keep some of this stuff in mind if we get through this budget mess and I can actually start back filling positions.

[19bernardo87]

This has been a really interesting thread.

As someone who has hired and fired for the last 8 years (2 in the private sector, 6 in state government) I find some of the ideas in here nice if not practical in hiring.

I'm actually going to keep some of this stuff in mind if we get through this budget mess and I can actually start back filling positions.

Since you hire and fire, it would be interesting to hear your opinion on the subject. How much weigh do you put on a college degree? And what does it mean to you it? And what correlation do you find it to have your hiring and firing?

[Christopher Brian]

Since you hire and fire, it would be interesting to hear your opinion on the subject. How much weigh do you put on a college degree? And what does it mean to you it? And what correlation do you find it to have your hiring and firing?


I've never once looked at a resume or applicaton and saw a degree and looked at it as proof that someone can dedicate four years to anything. One of the first things I was taught was that degrees, for the most part, can be deceptive and the presentation of the resume and the actual interview are everything.

That's in my field of play. I have counterparts who hire for Controllers, Finance Directors, Auditors, Process Improvement, and for stuff like that if you hire someone without the proper education you are killing yourself and your organization.

[Christopher Brian]

Since you hire and fire, it would be interesting to hear your opinion on the subject. How much weigh do you put on a college degree? And what does it mean to you it? And what correlation do you find it to have your hiring and firing?

I actually worked in a public defenders office for a while and I think that really taught me a lot more about identifying people who go to school and get an education and love what they went to school for. I was around a lot of low paid people who had mountains of loan debt and they LOVED thier jobs. LOVED Them. There is a look in someone's eyes when you ask them about thier chosen field or thier education that will tell you whether they went to school for love or just for the highest pay check. You get more continuity with someone who is looking for good pay and great satisfaction from thier work than the other way around. My observation.

[RickLM]

As silly as the lawsuit is, there is something strange about colleges that don't warn undergrads about taking a major that won't get them a decent job. There should be a warning attached to Psych, History and a few other majors which basically tells them they have little or no hope of obtaining satisfying work with such a degree.

[Treacle]

As silly as the lawsuit is, there is something strange about colleges that don't warn undergrads about taking a major that won't get them a decent job. There should be a warning attached to Psych, History and a few other majors which basically tells them they have little or no hope of obtaining satisfying work with such a degree.

I believe that depends on what you call "satisfying work."

My degree is in sociology, and I'm doing the kind of stuff I want to do.

Granted, I'm not a corporate bigwig with a six figure salary, but it's work I care deeply about.

[RickLM]

I believe that depends on what you call "satisfying work."

My degree is in sociology, and I'm doing the kind of stuff I want to do.

Granted, I'm not a corporate bigwig with a six figure salary, but it's work I care deeply about.


I loved sociology as well, and it was my undergrad minor. But would you be satisfied with only a BA in sociology, or do you think you'll need to return for more schooling in order to do what you want? When I was in school, I kind of realized that most of the really interesting stuff in the field of sociology was being done by PhDs. And my wife, with a BA in psychology, realizes the same thing about her field.

[Treacle]

I loved sociology as well, and it was my undergrad minor. But would you be satisfied with only a BA in sociology, or do you think you'll need to return for more schooling in order to do what you want? When I was in school, I kind of realized that most of the really interesting stuff in the field of sociology was being done by PhDs. And my wife, with a BA in psychology, realizes the same thing about her field.

I could make a career doing what I want from my B.A. in Sociology.

I am not interested in doing research. The stuff I'm passionate about and want to dedicate my life to revolves around social justice issues like intimate partner violence, rape, poverty, homelessness, child abuse, etc. Academia, while they do research those topics, is a hell of a lot less interested in being "in the trenches."

If I do go back to school, it would be to get a master's degree in something like counseling or social work not sociology.

Like I said, it all depends on what you want to do.

[Ultimate Dead Cap]

When did help change its meaning to do damn near everything or just everything for me? Has anyone else detected a increase in people's sense of entitlement for everything - and I mean everything?

[Treacle]

More details on Trina Thompson from CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/08/03/new.york.jobless.graduate/index.html):


As Thompson sees it, any reasonable employer would pounce on an applicant with her academic credentials, which include a 2.7 grade-point average and a solid attendance record. But Monroe's career-services department has put forth insufficient effort to help her secure employment, she claims.

Thompson said she has fulfilled her end of the job-search bargain, peppering companies listed on Monroe's e-recruiting site with cover letters, résumés and phone calls. But no more than two employers have responded to her outreach, and those leads have borne no fruit.

She suggested that Monroe's Office of Career Advancement shows preferential treatment to students with excellent grades. "They favor more toward students that got a 4.0. They help them more out with the job placement," she said.

Absurd.

[batmanbooyah]

is that real? are you making that up? did i waste time arguing all this bullshit that began with someone who's suing her school after SHE GOT A TWO POINT FUCKING SEVEN!?!?!?

i'm outta here.

[JHickman]

I cannot agree enough. You can't be a "renaissance man" anymore, unless you expect your knowledge in the end to be comparable to that of a person in the Renaissance period.

I disagree with this completely. I would argue in the next 100 years we're going to see the largest compressed crop of "renaissance men" in the history of the world.

Read your Kurzweil, kids.

[Humphrey_Lee]

is that real? are you making that up? did i waste time arguing all this bullshit that began with someone who's suing her school after SHE GOT A TWO POINT FUCKING SEVEN!?!?!?

i'm outta here.

I only have a 2.9 on my degree, but a 3.3 in classes relevant to my major. If it was some bullshit science class or whatever I didn't feel like taking but had to as a base course, I did just well enough to get a C in it and focused on the stuff I actually went there to take. Just sayin.

[c. page]

Another misconception too is that some newly degreed students think that they are supposed to just waltz right in to a midlevel job and get paid when really that is not the case.

this was actually one of the biggest complaints career counselors had at one of the schools i went to. they actually had to come in and explain to each of the classes that an AA in graphic design was not going to get you a top design spot at the leading firms in the country.


As silly as the lawsuit is, there is something strange about colleges that don't warn undergrads about taking a major that won't get them a decent job. There should be a warning attached to Psych, History and a few other majors which basically tells them they have little or no hope of obtaining satisfying work with such a degree.

i was actually warned by my career counselor when i declared my major that i would be pretty much unemployable. (i have a BA in english)

[LordKinbote]

I only have a 2.9 on my degree, but a 3.3 in classes relevant to my major. If it was some bullshit science class or whatever I didn't feel like taking but had to as a base course, I did just well enough to get a C in it and focused on the stuff I actually went there to take. Just sayin.

...which shows employers that you're really only interested in doing well at tasks that you enjoy. A "good" employee would try hard at all tasks given by the employer.

Just sayin. :)

[BenH]

is that real? are you making that up? did i waste time arguing all this bullshit that began with someone who's suing her school after SHE GOT A TWO POINT FUCKING SEVEN!?!?!?

i'm outta here.

Hey! Don't forget about her "solid attendance record"

[Treacle]

...which shows employers that you're really only interested in doing well at tasks that you enjoy. A "good" employee would try hard at all tasks given by the employer.

Just sayin. :)

I thought the same thing when I read his comment.

[afroloq]

is that real? are you making that up? did i waste time arguing all this bullshit that began with someone who's suing her school after SHE GOT A TWO POINT FUCKING SEVEN!?!?!?

i'm outta here.

I just read that too...well I guess we see why she's suing...cuz she's dumb.

[RickLM]

i was actually warned by my career counselor when i declared my major that i would be pretty much unemployable. (i have a BA in english)


I'm also a BA in English. I see three career paths for English majors:

* If you also are taking education courses, you can teach (though in many states, teaching jobs get axed when the economy goes bad).

* If you have writing talent, you can get a job. This is what I did. I landed an advertising job the year after I graduated and have been writing for a living for 20+ years.

* If you have an entrepreneurial mindset, get some Internet smarts and create websites/blogs/etc. and make a living in that economy.

But otherwise, yeah, thinking the economy is hungering for English majors is foolishness.

The problem is that people think they are going to receive a diploma and somehow employers are going to be lined up. But it only works that way for doctors, lawyers, engineers and nurses -- for those people, the career path is crystal clear. For everyone else, you have to hustle and create your own opportunities and deal with a lot of uncertainty.

[batmanbooyah]

I only have a 2.9 on my degree, but a 3.3 in classes relevant to my major. If it was some bullshit science class or whatever I didn't feel like taking but had to as a base course, I did just well enough to get a C in it and focused on the stuff I actually went there to take. Just sayin.

i think the key difference here is you're not trying to sue your school cause you couldn't find a job.

[Ben]

I'm also a BA in English. I see three career paths for English majors:

* If you also are taking education courses, you can teach (though in many states, teaching jobs get axed when the economy goes bad).

* If you have writing talent, you can get a job. This is what I did. I landed an advertising job the year after I graduated and have been writing for a living for 20+ years.

* If you have an entrepreneurial mindset, get some Internet smarts and create websites/blogs/etc. and make a living in that economy.

But otherwise, yeah, thinking the economy is hungering for English majors is foolishness.

The problem is that people think they are going to receive a diploma and somehow employers are going to be lined up. But it only works that way for doctors, lawyers, engineers and nurses -- for those people, the career path is crystal clear. For everyone else, you have to hustle and create your own opportunities and deal with a lot of uncertainty.Or you go to graduate school. A lot of liberal arts shoulds really just prepare students for graduate school. If you go there expecting vocational training, you picked the wrong school.

[Dreaded Anomaly]

More details on Trina Thompson from CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/08/03/new.york.jobless.graduate/index.html):



Absurd.

:rofl: "A 2.7 grade-point average and a solid attendance record" are barely academic credentials at all.

[Doc Randy]

As silly as the lawsuit is, there is something strange about colleges that don't warn undergrads about taking a major that won't get them a decent job. There should be a warning attached to Psych, History and a few other majors which basically tells them they have little or no hope of obtaining satisfying work with such a degree.


Shouldn't everybody do some basic research on their career prospects on their own, regardless of what degree they go after? Why rely on the school to do it for you?

[MIKE D]

:rofl: "A 2.7 grade-point average and a solid attendance record" are barely academic credentials at all.

My favorite part is when she suggests the school job placement department shows preferential treatment to people with higher GPAs. Which just shows that her 2.7 was an act of charity.

[Evan the Shaggy]

I've never had a job interview that asked for my GPA.

[c. page]

I'm also a BA in English. I see three career paths for English majors:

* If you also are taking education courses, you can teach (though in many states, teaching jobs get axed when the economy goes bad).

* If you have writing talent, you can get a job. This is what I did. I landed an advertising job the year after I graduated and have been writing for a living for 20+ years.

* If you have an entrepreneurial mindset, get some Internet smarts and create websites/blogs/etc. and make a living in that economy.

But otherwise, yeah, thinking the economy is hungering for English majors is foolishness.

The problem is that people think they are going to receive a diploma and somehow employers are going to be lined up. But it only works that way for doctors, lawyers, engineers and nurses -- for those people, the career path is crystal clear. For everyone else, you have to hustle and create your own opportunities and deal with a lot of uncertainty.

and i pretty much wound up working shit jobs while writing, until recently when i found a good job to do while writing. but i also expected it. i knew when i took the major that there wasn't going to be a lot of work available in my chosen field.

[Ben]

I've never had a job interview that asked for my GPA.No, they usually ask for your GPA in the job application or on the resume. I've had many, many jobs ask for GPAs there.

[Humphrey_Lee]

...which shows employers that you're really only interested in doing well at tasks that you enjoy. A "good" employee would try hard at all tasks given by the employer.

Just sayin. :)


Well, I also took 154 hours (a little over five years of classes) in four years because I was going to double major, but got fucked over with credit transfers and yadda yadda, so it just means I allotted my time as efficiently as I could (which is kind of key when during your senior year you're taking 24-27 hours of class a week and reading close to 1000 pages of text as well since they're all senior level and major specific). I'm just saying, this girl's 2.7 may have something to it. Besides 95% of employers aren't going to ask about GPA, they just usually care if you did the time to get a degree. Remember, I'm one of the ones that think this lawsuit is stupid, I'm still just saying that a degree these days also pretty much means bupkiss, which is terrible considering it's supposed to be something we're supposed to highly covet in our society.